You are offended why? You can get a doll of me and poke needles in it if you
want, I don't believe it will hurt me one bit. And guess what, it won't. Ha ha
ha. Poke me all you want for all I care. You're hatred, rage and anger are
out of control who oppose what we do. To anon 6:23 pm, we don't baptized any
dead relatives into our true religion. They are not members until they accept
it of their own free will and choice. So if you are so sure your dead relatives
will not accept it, fine. They very well may not, so whether it's true or not,
how in the world could you care, unless your brain is so screwed up it's beyond
repair. I think you have bigger things to worry about, like the US debt that is
about to swallow us all up.
Anon...of all the thousands of "so-called misguided Mormons" I know all over the
country. I know of no one as mean spirited, negative,etc., as you are by your
own portrayal in these blogs....and I am glad I don't! I am glad I am "me" and
Okay, let's put it this way -If I find who is rebaptizing any dead
relative of mine into their bogus religion, I'll have to kick their (blanks)!
Gifts, both great and small show the goodness, the nobility, the generosity of
the giver. Honorable and gracious people accept gifts with humility, knowing
that the intent to help, to uplift, to enrich is worth far more than the gift
itself.The petty, the foolish, the unwise, judge the value of the
gift by their own petty, foolish and unwise standards.Good people
everywhere are gracious when they are honored with a gift. Grandparents never
judge the quality of the drawing, but only the love and greatness of the heart
of the grandchild who loved enough to share their best effort and to give of
themselves.People of religion, the world over, are mostly gracious
and kind when they are offered gifts. They are not so foolish to return to God
His great gifts, nor to embarrass those who in their own way, try to emulate
some of God's great goodness by giving gifts one to another.
I think your definition of proselytism is vastly different from mine Thomas.Never confuse materialism with Christmas.
Anon, if nobody ever proselytized, I would never have gotten any Christmas
I hope that by now we can see the futility in proselytism.Row, row
row YOUR boat ... (Row your OWN boat please, and I promise I won't row
YOURS)If this is done mutually, with no unilateral monkee-business
whatsoever- I believe life truly can be A DREAM.But don't tell your
Missionary president I told you.(wink)
If I made a practice of being offended by other people's religious practices,
I'd be offended by evangelicals praying for me to see the error of my Mormon
ways. And by hard-core Mormons praying for me to see the error of my
"intellectual" pride. And to Catholics for presuming to declare that the
existence of God is capable of being demonstrated by rational proof (which --
since I've yet to be convinced by any such proofs -- implies that I'm an idiot.)
Bottom line, people will believe what they want, and unless it
picks my pocket or breaks my leg, I'm inclined to let them alone.
This rebaptism thingy is just another LDS Public Relations ploy to inflate
membership numbers.I thought EVERYBODY could figure THAT one out.
So What if the LDS Church "mass copies" names of families for their Proxy
Baptisms. If you have a right to say no in the herafter then you say no. Now,
they do make all the names available to ALL people to trace their ancestry.
Given that, then what ever they do is fine as long as others are given a way to
do what ever they want to do...
Tell ya what Joe Moe.You do your thing.I'll do my thing.We'll
stay out of each others' faces, live-and-let live (worship how we want and leave
the other guy be)Then, after a while, let's see if there is any positive
outcome to this.
There seems to be some confusion about what names the LDS church does proxy
baptisms for.Members are only supposed to submit names for deceased
ancestors or deceased relatives. However, if the name is not a direct ancestor,
or is a "recent" decedent, they should get permission from the closest next of
kin. Many members violate this policy as there is no check to see that the
permission has been obtained.However, the church does mass
photocopying of records from all over the world and makes these names available
to temple patrons that do not have "family" names.
I know. Let's have every name (that we can find) in the history of the world
put on a list. Let every religion do every ceremony, prayer, or incantation
they want with every name on the list. Then, no matter which religion is right,
the doors will be open for every soul in the next life. With
everyone so concerned with everyone else's eternal welfare, maybe we'll have
more compassion in other, more mundane ways, and our world will be better for
it.My name can be at the top of the list.I want a Nobel
Prize for my brilliant, all-inclusive, harmony-inducing plan. But I'll settle
for everyone who is up in arms about this to get some perspective and get back
Here's one for you.The Catholic church (Catholic means universal)
believes every Christian is part of the base structure that is Catholic.So, no matter what has been protested in the past, no matter what sect has
been formed, everybody is under the same roof. (Whether you dunk, sprinkle,
marry a bunch of wives, etc.)That's why the Catholic Church is
always open to everyone.Now what?
Let's see, I'm LDS and I am very proud of it, but if I could give you a dollar
for everytime someone from another religion prayed for me then we'd all be rich.
Fact is, I appreciate other people's faith and care, even from other religions,
and personally, I would appreciate being "rebaptized" in their religion if they
thought that it would help me reach the "rapture" or heaven, or what ever they
would have me reach. I need all of the help I can get and their help is just as
important to me as my bishop's.
Mormons will be MormonsMainstream Christians will be ChristiansAnd (as evidenced by this absurd rebaptism ritual)[obviously]
never the twain shall meet.
It goes back to the attitude that he LDS church is the only real church..Us nonebelievers don't buy it..we are fine with our own churches
doctrines and believes..
In today's latter-day version of Mormonism, no one gets "run out of town" for
their peculiarities.For the most part, nobody really cares what you
do.But when you insist on taking liberties telling non-mormons "God
told you so" I am afraid our differences will be in the form of law suits.
No Lamonte - It will not be okay by me if my Mormon brother opts to have me
baptized. Give it a rest... and you were the one referring to past momo's
getting run out of everywhere, don't talk about it if you don't want a response.
Play all the stupid word games you want Mormons,but if you expect we
non-mormons to simply roll over and play dead on this unilateral practice of
yours, you are dumber than I had originally thought.
Ramona, you've made a concious choice so you don't need to worry about this at
all (for yourself). Baptism for the dead is a contingency plan for
those who didn't get the chance to hear the gospel and accept or reject it in
this life. Sounds like you know enough about the gospel the Mormons teach and
have rejected it, so even if a proxy where baptised for you, your choice while
on earth would take precidence over the precautionary safety net of
Baptism-for-the-dead.Baptism-for-the-dead is not a 2nd chance
program, where those who already made a concious decision to reject the gospel
while they were alive get a 2nd chance to accept it after death. It is intended
for those countless generations of people who lived on the earth during the
dark-ages and in countries where their government or other conditions prevented
them from getting the chance to hear and accept or reject the gospel for
themselvs.People who made their own decision while alive don't need
Baptism-for-the-dead because they already made their wishes known while on this
earth. Baptism-for-the-dead is for those who didn't get a fare chance to make
their own decision while on earth.
The more time goes on and the more information is revealed to those gentiles
about the Mormons and their beliefs- the more I am convinced these people have
lost their minds.
Chloe - but what if after you leave this world one of your relatives ends up
being a Mormon (it could happen!) and they decide to give you that chance to be
baptized by proxy. Will that be OK? By the way, nobody ran ME out of anywhere.
To "Anonymous | 10:52 a.m." there are people who, with good intentions, do
things that are considered bad manners.Not to trivialize this, but I
was in a restaurant and had some guy with a cell phone stand next to me and my
wife and chat away for about 10 minutes. While this was extreamly rude, he was
doing it so that his family wouldn't have to listen to him. Good intentions,
bad execution.The LDS church is full of good people, but you have to
remember that they are people, and as such makemistakes.If you want
to take a few people and judge any religion, creed, or belief system by it, then
you will come to the conclusion that any belief system is wrong.There will always be people who don't follow their leader's council, but we
can't judge the group off of a few people.
When are Mormons ever going to learn they simply cannot pull off what they used
to pull off without having a fight on their hands?
A thousand pardons, lamonte -Perhaps if the Mormon attitude was/is:"We can and will baptize dead people without the deceased's family's
authorization" - it's no wonder they got "run out of every city, county and
state in this great nation."You just cannot do that sort of thing
and get away with it.That's what makes this a GREAT COUNTRY.
Re: LamonteDo what you want with your own family members (hopefully the
consent), but leave me alone.... If you can't then yes you are equally as bad as
those who ran you out of everywhere.
to Anonymous 10:52 - You really don't have to lecture Mormons about bad manners.
Running them out of every city, county and state in this great nation, where
religious freedom was supposed to be a hallmark, was bad manners. Murdering
their leaders, and sending cowardly mobs in the night to terrorize their
villages was bad manners. Letting 6,000 of them die on the trail across the
Great Plains and then sending the Union Army to a godforsaken desert that nobody
else wanted, just to harrass them, was bad manners. They know the meaning of
bad manners. Symbolically baptizing by proxy, one of their dead relatives,
regardless of what religion they professed while they lived on this earth, to
provide what they believe to be ultimate salvation, doesn't quite meet the same
standard for bad manners.
Uh, Point of Clarification, maybe you should get your facts straight before you
decide you need to clarify something. Pope John Paul II has been dead for over
two years now.
to "very confused in OC at 9:33am.I don't know how it could be
possible to have baptized the pope at least 4 times when the LDS church doesn't
allow baptisms for the dead for living people. Last I had heard the pope was
still alive and kicking.
To YouGoFirst -I KNOW what the LDS leaders are "encouraging members
to do.I also KNOW what the members are doing anyway.Either
way, this falls under the category of bad manners.
To "fr1nk 9:58" it isn't just a matter of living the golden rule. That is a
great thing to live by, and I wish more people lived by it.The thing
is that here in life, we are preparing ourselves to live with God again. The
requirements for entering into his kingdom have been shared with us by Prophets.
One of the requirements to return to him is to receive an earthly baptism. The
requirement is not negociable, which we know because even Jesus, who was
perfect, had to be baptized.Baptism is one of few requirements that
is an outward expression of one's comitment to follow the commandments of
God.In the end it all comes down to faith. No matter what is
written here, or anywhere that you read, it is up to each individual to decide
if they believe or not.(I like to look at the Old Testament like
early childhood. God seem tough and fierce because the people, in general, were
not ready for the next step. It would be wonderful if we had writings from Adam
to Moses, but instead we have Genisis, as written by Moses.)
Ill sign up for anyone's list. You are welcome to baptize, elect, scream at,
curse, pray for, pray against, or play boggle or monopoly with my name after I
die regardless of belief system.
re: YouGoFirst 8:42Doesn't "fr1nk 8:17" make a valid point? That
same God that fed the Israelites manna also commanded them to commit genocide
when they got to "their" promised land. Men, women, children...didn't matter.
But that was a great point about the manna.
Yugo; I do try to live by the golden rule if that is your question. I just dont
believe in a god who makes these ritualistic rules that even he/she/it cant
change.What do you learn from baptism of the dead. When I did it I didnt
learn anything.As far as the compassionate god of the old testament, my
favorite story is th story of Job. I will refresh your memory (paraphrased):
"god tells satan that Job loves god. satan says it is because god gave Job so
much stuff. God says "O yeah!" God kills Jobs family, takes all his stuff and
when Job still prays to god, god says to satan "see, I told you so". Quite the
To "Anonymous 9:29" - the LDS leaders have encouraged the members to only submit
their family's names.
Re Connie and Others - YOU DO NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO ANYTHING TO MY BODY/SOUL
- EVER. Get over yourself and realize I am just not interested in your
shenanigans, leave me to rest in peace (WITHOUT YOUR HELP).It is quite
selfish of you to assume you have the right because your religion says so, no
matter what this is my body and you have no right.
No one is telling you what you can do, they are simply saying the LDS church
can't copy what is basically copyrighted material, ie parish records. Seems
like the LDS church is having issues with copyrights. First the Catholic
church's records and now Disney. You don't believe everything taught
by other religions, they obviously feel the same way about you LDS folks.
You are never going to get the Vatican to change their minds on this.Never.
Of course its offensive.Would you crash a family reunion uninvited?
Connie,A "just and fair" "God" would not CARE if someone was dunked,
sprinkled or doused with water here on Earth.
"Confused" states that proxy baptism is done only for descendants of current LDS
members and that there are no "en masse" baptisms of lists of names. "Connie
Gasser" implies otherwise, since she mentions plans to baptize people who lived
in Communist countries who never had the chance of LDS baptism. I
believe Connie Gasser's version may be closer to the truth. After all, Pope John
Paul II (no, I am not Catholic) has been baptised by proxy at least four times,
and I doubt that he has any relatives who are active LDS Church members. I believe that most folks who are not LDS have little problem with proxy
baptisms for ancestors of current LDS members, excluding perhaps deceased
persons who left the LDS Church of their own volition while they were alive.
What does irk the non-LDS public is inclusion of people without any LDS
connections, be they popes or Holocaust victims, into LDS rituals without
consent from living descendants. Official LDS Church publicity
appears to support "Confused's" position, in that Family History work and proxy
baptisms are done only by members on behalf of their ancestors. Connie Gasser's
remarks suggest otherwise, however; that's what offends others.
People believing in myths doesn't bother me. It's what they DO with their
beliefs and how it affects OTHER people that bothers me. It bothers me when the
believers of one myth claim absolutely no earthly understanding of how LIVING
relatives of the deceased could possibly be offended when they are told that
THEIR myths aren't good enough and that their dead relatives need to "choose" a
different myth to receive all the mythy "blessings" associated with their
beliefs.Seriously, why can't we just let the dead figure it out? I
know, I know, there's some "corporeal" requirement for baptism. Whatever, who
cares? CHANGE the doctrine so we can all get along better while we're here on
EARTH. You've done it before; please, do it again. Thanks in advance for your
consideration.(could someone in the know please forward this message
to Mr. Monson?)
Hey LDS dudes!What part of doing this without the consent of the
family is bad manners don't you get?
It seems that people who are not members of the LDS church feel they have the
right to tell us what we can do and what we can't do. That's offensive to me.
A lot of doctrines in other churches are crazy to me, but you don't see me
telling them to stop their practices. Heavenly Father said that no one can
enter into his Kingdom unless they were baptized. What about those who lived in
communist countries and died before they could have the right to hear about God?
Are they going to **** because they didn't have the chance for baptism. What
about infants who die after being alive two days. Will they not be able to go
to heaven because they didn't get baptized? They didn't do anything wrong. I
thought God was just and fair. Remember people have their free agency to
believe as they choose. You don't have the right to tell people what the can or
can't believe.My best advice to you is to mind you own business
instead of everyone elses.
To "fr1nk 8:17" - It sounds like the plan you would have like to have in life,
is to do what seems good, then everybody comes to heaven.The LDS
believe that we are here to learn to obey God's will. While it would be easier
to make it so that all ordinances were carried out at once, it puts the burden
of learning on us.The God of the old testament also had great
compassion. While the ancient isrealites were in the wilderness, he fed them
manna (a bread like substance that tasted like honey). He also took the city of
Enoc into heaven because they were so good.
Oh, it's the sound of someione beating a dead horse!! I thought this topic was
over! The Catholic church has made up it's mind, GET OVER IT AND MOVE ON
PEOPLE!!! THERE'S NOTHING NEW HERE!!
I cannot believe in a god that can create a universe, but cant let a soul into
heaven unless some person on his creation (earth) first is dunked in water in
that souls name. But then again, in all my readings, the god of the old
testament was petty and hostile to his creation. Couldnt a real god just make a
baptismal fount (sp) in heaven and take care of the paperwork (and the dunking)
there? What would have happened if no one had believed Joseph Smith and his
fantastic story? Would god have been powerless to let anyone into heaven?
Chole and others,First the baptisms for the dead is by the descendents of
that person. So if you family stays within the church of your choosing then the
chances are that they will not be baptized.The LDS do not just do
mass baptisms without descendents first doing the work to find thier
ancestors.You still have the choice to accept or decline the
oridinace. Thus you still have your free agency. Maybe you will learn something
on the other side.
Ever stop to think you might change your mind after you are dead?
All Religions have their offensive doctrines.Re-baptism is
offensive? So some of my neighboors telling me that unless a person accepts
Christ in this life, that they will burn in hell forever. I have budahist
relatives, who are great people. So is telling someone who is divorced that
they need to wait for church permission to get re-married or they will suffer
the wrath of God. If that permission never arrives they are to put themself on
ice the rest of their life. So is a wife telling a husband that she can have
relations with him only two weeks of every month, because they don't want any
more kids and she refuses any use of contraception. So is religion saying that
under no circumstances can a person have sex outside marriage, what of the
person who's husband or wife is invalid? or the person who can find no one to
marry them but still can date?Religion of all kinds teach doctrines
that are outdated and offensive.
I too find it very offensive for someone to assume the right to baptize me after
I am dead. Leave me alone! I have already been baptized in the fashion of the
church I belong to. If I change my mind before I die and decide to convert to
LDS then I will get baptized by you, otherwise mind your own business and stay
out of my life and death!
Some people may find it offensive, but we believe in being obedient, and it is
the Lord, not man, who has commanded us to do these proxy baptisms. Till He says
otherwise, we'll continue to obey. That's sufficient justification for me.
It's hard to tell if Anonymous 1:37 a.m. is pro-LDS or not, be he/she has the
right attitude. I don't think those now living on the earth, regardless of
their religion, can speak for those who have left this life and now exist in
another state of being. It may be offensive to some of those now living to
baptize their dead relatives by proxy but it could be just as offensive to those
on the other side to be denied that choice. We just don't know, do we.
I can only see that someone would or could be offended if they thought there was
the least little bit of a chance that it might be legit. The offense comes from
being found wrong, not that someone has submitted a name you think belongs to
you, which it doesn't. Only the person, who is dead, has a right to accept or
reject what has been done and of late there doesn't seem to have been any
communication declaring offense from the other side. Frankly I would be
concerned that when my time came that I would be met on the other side by irate
family members for sticking my nose in their business. If you're so sure
of your position, then leave a declaration on your records. I'm sure it will be
No need to sign up. No one is forced to accept it. After I die you can
re-baptize me all you want. I'll just say "No Thanks".
If your (and others') believe systems are accurate, then an LDS baptism for the
dead will mean nothing and not affect your salvation in whatever form that is.
If, however, LDS theology is correct on the matter, then you (and others) will
likely appreciate the church being concerned for your eternal welfare and not
forgetting about you.This is not something to get so worked up over.
Frankly, any other religion can baptize me in whatever way they see fit so as
best to "save" me. As long as I have an opportunity to accept or reject it when
faced with the truth in the life after this is good enough for me.