The biased slant of this article was obvious. Seeing illegal immigrants as
equals, less than equal or our level of love for them has nothing to do with the
reasons many people oppose more open borders. The article seems to equate less
education, less commitment to church and less love for their fellow men as being
the group against illegal immigration and I think this comparison is misleading
at best.Many people fail to recognize the Church position is much
broader than suggested approval of legislation brought forth in the Utah
Legislature. I'd actually like to see better immigration laws in place with
transitions to become a citizen shorter. I also believe families who have lived
in the US for extended periods specially those with kids that have never lived
out of the country should be given an exception.There are many other
elements effecting legal and illegal immigration with many more facets than many
are willing to talk about including, political corruption, social safety nets,
Drug cartel involvement in human trafficking and their presence in the US. There
are many more reasons besides these.
@ sportsfan21 How very sad that you think that "unless you're a soldier,
you've actually done nothing to merit citizenship". If you really believe
that you definately don't have a clue as to "what makes an American"
and who built America. First, of course is birthright and it is the reason why
we must put up with SOME criminals. We do however incarcerate them whenever we
can to keep them out of our general population and unable to harm good citizens.
Do you really think that we should have to take in the dregs of other
societies??? Don't you feel that we have enough of our own and pay a high enough
price for them?And where exactly did I say that "the US was
justified in taking land and rights away from Native Americans...". What I
said was that if they had established immigration laws and ENFORCED them they
may not have lost their country. Obviously by that statement I believe they
would have been powerful enough to enforce them. They just weren't smart enough
to have them and were even less smart to help the invaders survive. We were
smart enough to have laws and should deport invaders.
American Pride says "It's really very simple... people who don't respect
our laws and borders don't respect our country and people. Those people don't
belong in our country."So any criminal should be kicked out of
the US? How about those that commit misdemeanors? And where will we send them?
You are only arguing the point which suits you best. What makes an
American? I'm pretty sure the only reason I am (since I haven't served in the
military) is because someone let my ancestors in. So unless you're a soldier,
you've actually done nothing to merit citizenship.And since you
believe the US was justified in taking land and rights from Native Americans
because they weren't powerful enough to enforce immigration laws, aren't
Mexicans just as justified in ignoring laws that we don't enforce?By
your logic, every illegal who is already here should be allowed to stay because
we didn't "establish immigration laws and enforce them."You're selfish to keep "your" country for your children while hating
others for wanting to gain freedom for their children.
@ kargirl You posted, "Raise your hands, how many of you would be here if
the Native Americans had had immigration laws and your ancestors had to get
papers, and permission, sponsors, and green cards, etc--or the equivalent---to
be legal residents here before getting permission to become citizens in this
country? And what language would you speak, do you think? Do you think you would
even be who you are? Now, how many of the original citizens got murdered so your
ancestors could live here without papers? Answers, anyone? Now who wants to get
really upset about immigration?"Had the Native Americans
established immigration laws/a process AND ENFORCED THEM they may not have lost
their country. Instead, they made the big mistake of helping the INVADERS
survive the first winter. I choose to learn from their mistakes and not follow
in their footsteps. I prefer to keep my country for my children and their
It's really very simple... people who don't respect our laws and borders don't
respect our country and people. Those people don't belong in our country. Our
immigration process is not 'broken' and needs no 'reform'. What is broken is our
ENFORCEMENT of the immigration laws. If it were broken we wouldn't have ONE
MILLION + legal immigrants entering our country EACH YEAR! (That's more than all
other countries combined!) If we made the process any easier we would soon be so
over populated that our situation now with unemployment, homelessness, poverty,
lack of medical care, hunger, etc. would be a fond memory of better days. It is
common sense, people! We do not have an expandable country or expandable
resources! We must put a stop to illegal immigration and get rid of those who
have ignored our laws and borders. It is not inhumane to enforce our laws on
those who break them. They knew the risk for themselves and their children and
took it anyway. That's on them, not us.
Went into a Spanish store yesterday to buy some Mexican bread and some made to
order food to take home and they had the nerve to assign a worker to me who
spoke the best English. The nerve of them to try and make me feel welcome in my
native language :) Though I am fluent in Spanish, they did not know that.
Conservatives don't have a problem with immigration. The problem is with illegal
immigration. It is insulting that this distinction was not made.Illegal immigration causes a number of problems, especially when the illegal
still considers themselves a citizen of the country they came from and is
unwilling to assimilate and show allegiance to America. There are high levels of
crime, including identity theft, and this can be difficult to track with people
who do not have proper identification. Illegal immigrants, who usually do not
contribute taxes, can be a drain on the system. In fact, one of Mexico's biggest
sources of income is money sent home from people who are here illegally. This
was even encouraged by Vicente Fox, and I don't doubt is still encouraged by the
current president.Immigration can be wonderful when people want to
come here to assimilate and live the American dream. I do not mean that they
forget where they came from, but when they come here they are first and foremost
Americans. There is a reason we have an immigration process.
Love how so many people know everybody and what is in their hearts, what they
think and feel. As an illustration: those who post what undocumented people in
this country feel and think, and why they are here, what they do, how they live,
what their motives are. I must not be exaggerating, since it appears to be so in
sentences that tell us what "they" are and do, and what is the result
of their presence here. Of course, these people also know all of the
"legal" residents, as they have told us the same things about them and
the results of their presence here. Now, if I am not right, let's have them tell
us they made a mistake and don't know these things about these or any other
groups and would like to apologize for implying otherwise. Then we can have an
adult conversation, which, in the light of the one that has been going on in the
last few years, would be a breath of fresh air.
@marcamus Endorsing and looking the other way at illegality in the
name of charity and compassion actually is FALSE charity and compassion. @raybiesDo you feel that the hijackers of the airliners that
flew into the twin towers also were brought here by the hand of God? The notion
that the illegal invasion of America constitutes some sort of divine providence
is false doctrine.@MormonDemIf you are referring to the
Church statements in support of the Utah Compact, actually the
"Brethren" have NOT spoken, inasmuch as those statements do not bear
the signature or imprint of the First Presidency.@milojthatchYou are rationalizing that U.S. immigration law is unfair when it is not
and also that two wrongs make a right.@The Rock The
oft-heard call that we must treat illegal aliens "humanely" is
specious and deceptive, for humane treatment of illegals is not actually at
issue. They are not treated inhumanely. What many are doing is FALSELY
implying that enforcing the law is inhumane, when it is not. @John
Pack Lambert of MichiganThe implication that 30 million illegals
have come here fleeing rape, bombs, murder, and starvation, is a bunch of
The issue can be quite grey. Cubans enter illegally but the moment a foot
touches our soil they can become legal. Many asylum seekers enter illegally,
but are awarded legal status. Many come here legally, but lose their status.
Some come here legally, form legal businesses employing US citizens and then
USCIS determines they are not doing enough and tell them to go home, destroying
the businesses and the US jobs. Some have legal work authorization for decades
until a government worker gets around to looking at the case and then deciding
that 20 years later an asylum case does not have enough merit and tells them to
go home. For some cases it is black and white, but it is difficult
to tell. Spending precious resources to build higher and higher fences and
trying to deport every person is not wise. Take away the welfare and job
carrots instead and give businesses tax credits to implement e-verify.
In the end, I would rather be known as erring on the side of charity and
I think if you survey Mormons in border states, on the front-lines of the
illegal immigration mess, you will find 75-80% feel they are a burden on us
taxpayers. Here in AZ, they cost the hospital systems about $150M/year. Our
prison system has 25% illegals. Would anyone say that's NOT a burden?
The Book of Mormon contains distinct prophetic words regarding those who come to
this land. Many LDS view the incursion of many natives from this continent into
this country as a fulfillment of prophecy and that despite the difficulties, the
best way to deal with it, is to lift, uplift, and greet our fellows from the
House of Israel with love and tolerance.
Mr. Bean,Reference Jesus being in Egypt, please see Matthew 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth
to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother,
and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will
seek the young child to destroy him.14 When he arose, he took the
young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:15 And
was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken
of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Most criminal problems are generated by "economic problems." Either
people choose to honor and sustain the law or they don't. Hypocrisy often
results. Christ is reported to have been fairly critical of hypocrites...as I
First, it is interesting how the Deseret News apparently doesn't want to give
press ink to the NAME of the Arizona "Mormon state senator" and
"President of the Senate." His name happens to be RUSSELL
PEARCE -- a good man who was unjustly ousted as a result of a dishonest
propaganda campaign. The Pew study, Charles Morgan, and this
report, all effectively -- and falsely -- lump legal and illegal immigration
into the same category, as though there is no legal nor moral difference between
the two. The subtle implication, therefore -- that "the more
devout Mormons" endorse ILLEGAL immigration -- is patently FALSE.Conduct a study that clearly differentiates between legal and illegal
immigration. The results then will be very different. And for the
record: despite appearances, the Church statements in support of the Utah
Compact do NOT constitute official Church policy, doctrine, nor posture. Only
the First Presidency has the right to speak for the Church (Handbook 2, 21.1.29,
D&C 107). Those statements of support carry neither the names nor the
signatures of the First Presidency. In fact, they are nothing more than
anonymous press releases issued by the Public Affairs Department -- which has no
inherent Priesthood authority WHATSOEVER.
Raise your hands, how many of you would be here if the Native Americans had had
immigration laws and your ancestors had to get papers, and permission, sponsors,
and green cards, etc--or the equivalent---to be legal residents here before
getting permission to become citizens in this country? And what language would
you speak, do you think? Do you think you would even be who you are? Now, how
many of the original citizens got murdered so your ancestors could live here
without papers? Answers, anyone? Now who wants to get really upset about
Illegal immigrants should be deported. If they are members of the church, they
can help strengthen the church in their own country. We are taught that we
should be the salt of the earth. That means working to make the country where
you live a better place, not breaking immigration laws to enter the U.S. Honor,
obey and sustain the law of the land, just as the article of faith states.
immigration has gotten a bad rap because our government doesn't know how to
foster legitimate legal immigration.Make it easier to let them come.
Have them share the full burden of taxes/responsibility.
Miss Piggie, I've seen that clip on YouTube and I think you should be aware that
that man in a statistical manipulator. If you look closely on his chart, he
begins in 1970 at a population growth of zero so that it looks like the
population will be mostly Hispanic by 2020, which isn't the case. He also
doesn't account for variables among both groups. He explains that for several
reasons, existing citizens will decrease the number of children they have, but
he doesn't think that those same reasons (ie fewer jobs, less healthcare) will
decrease the rate that people enter the country.Later, he says that
4.6 billion people are more impoverished than the average Mexican. In 1990 there
were only 6 billion people in the world total. So only 1,400,400 people were
wealthier than the average Mexican? I would say that 500 million Americans were
wealthier along with 500 million Europeans and 400 million Japanese. Now throw
in Chinese, Australian, South African, Brazilian, and Russian people who make
more than " 1/10 of what the average Americans make" and his estimate
might be 2 billion off.
Immigration and Illegal Immigration are two entirely different things. Trying to
lump them together into the same thing is like trying to lump together water and
oil. The amount of people who think they are the same thing is astounding. The
ignorance in our country has never been as prevalent as it is now. By the way,
the church doesn't support the "Utah Compact". In order for the church
to support something or have it become church policy, doctrine, etc. The
President and the Quorum of the twelve must all be in unanimous agreement. This
never happened to the "Utah Compact". Certain un-educatd members of
the church may support it, but the church as a whole does not.
@Mr. Bean:"But we clearly can't continue to take in all the
people of the world who would like a better life in America."You got that right, Bean. And if you want to see the details of why, go to
YouTube's 'Immigration Gumballs.'
@rhappahannock:"Immigration - legal and unathorized - is a net
economic benefit to the country."If they are, it's only be a
very slim few cents. They get free education and mostly free health care. Most
don't pay any income taxes because they don't make enough to qualify."Jesus Christ was an undocumented immigrant to Egypt. Going to throw him
out?"Jesus didn't go to Egypt. And if He did, He didn't stay
for long. He just visited then went home."Those blaming all
our economic problems on 'the Mexicans' are engaging in National
Socialism."No one is blaming ALL our problems on Mexicans. But
we clearly can't continue to take in all the people of the world who would like
a better life in America. We just can't do that. So, we need to draw the line
someplace. We already have immigration laws, so that's the logical place to
start. Secure the borders. Then, what about those already here? Well, I say
if they broke our laws don't give them citizenship, ever. Or, at least until
they leave and return in a legal fashion. Then take away the magnet that brings
them here... jobs. Require usage of E-Verify.
@rhappahannock, I agree "blindly following some radio host" is unwise
but Econ101 (taken by those at the helm of our financial debacle by the way lol)
if "blindly" followed stirs up same anger and resentment. The real
world is the cure. Join us. No one is blaming "all our economic
problems" on "the Mexicans." That assertion is absurd. But not
nearly so absurd as the notion that our sovereignty respected would somehow lead
to "National Socialism." I recommend a History class or maybe a
historical document such as our glorious Constitution. Away from conflicting
"soundbites" you may learn the truth that our founders gifted us with
precious Liberty that all should understand, appreciate, honor and defend else
it "perish from the earth." Here is a thought, how bout we spread
"Liberty to all" across sovereign borders rather than quash the last
bastion of it here on God's green earth?
After you have known people who came here "illegally" to flee rape by
paramilitary forces aligned with the US backed government in Guatamala, people
who came here "illegally" because they could not earn enough money to
feed their children, and people who came here "illegally" because they
feared for their lives at the hands of the people who had recently bombed the
local LDS chapel and had made it known that they intended to kill the leader of
the local American connected Church, you will not be so quick to judge.When your favorite primary teacher ever was a man whose parents learned of the
gospel after they had come to the US illegally, when your favorite high council
speaker ever was a man whose parents came to the US as stowaways since they
could not afford the trip, and thus never dealt with immigration, and when your
grandmother has second cousins who died because US immigration policy had low
quotas that kept them where they were killed for being Jews by the Nazis, you
will not be so quick to distinguish "illegal" and "legal"
Immigration - legal and unathorized - is a net economic benefit to the country.
Go back to Econ 101 or read "The Economist" as opposed to blindly
following some radio host that is paid to stir up anger and resentment. Get the
real facts - not a soundbite.Jesus Christ was an undocumented
immigrant to Egypt. Going to throw him out?Those blaming all our
economic problems on "the Mexicans" are engaging in National
Socialism. Some of the posters here are even advocating a "Final
milojthatch -- Thank you for your thoughtful, quick statement about
laws and that we can change them. We should and often do. Slavery laws were
changed but not until after unbelievable brutality of all factions who could
cite law and the philosophical bases supporting their positions.It's
nearly impossible to change the minds of people who control the language in ways
that favor their points of view. It's ever been this way as long as money and
power are involved, that the discourse becomes toxic and allows for wild verbal
swings at anybody who stands for some kind of long-term, positive conclusion
based in mutual respect.As far as my living in Boise is concerned,
that's a fairly recent thing, and it's only one of several places around the
country I've called home. It's interesting to me how much disrespect people here
receive from others around the country. I'm closely watching the
news about the Utah Compact. It sounds as if they're trying to get it right, at
least in Utah, finally.
I'm an International business person with extended trips up to six months
exporting USA goods and services.I am thankful most countries are
not discriminative against American immigrants. I swear to always assume
everyone in the US is legal until proven otherwise, then I will hear their
@milojthatch "the falsehood it seems...that to follow the (law), you can't
work to change laws."Yes, I agree. It is not hypocrisy to
debate and try to change the laws that you currently sustain.
I have proud Mexican American friends in Arizona. If you ask them "What
part of Mexico you are from?" they will tell you..."Arizona."Not all Mexican Americans have immigrant ancestors, but were here before
the USA. Yet, these American citizens are harassed as illegal immigrants from
time to time.
I think they should close the borders and give everyone who's been here
illegally longer than a year and is contributing to society a 9 month window to
get their green card. After that they need to start cracking down on illegals
and taking the situation seriously.
Being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ and living in a border state, I
find myself in a quandry at times. I feel that helping my fellow man, legal or
illegal, is of utmost importance. However, I, also feel that obeying the law of
the land is the thing to do. AZ have tried to enforce the law and are being
sued by the full force of the federal government. Just ask Sherrif Joe how that
is working for him. He who was doing his job and found himself in the whirlwind
of political correctness. If the feds were enforcing the laws on the books, ther
wouldn't be a problem. I just do not want this to be an issue used by either
political party to demonize the other.
@ Gracie, you take umbrage at the use of "bleeding heart fallacy" just
as you bemoan the use of accurate definitions in the english language while down
here on the front lines we contend daily with the illegal acts of illegal people
as you (for now) remain sheltered up in Boise, ID from true reality while the
mainstream media blacks out truths per your bleeding heart "agenda."
MY heart bleeds for the victims of this agenda such as Liberty and the 4 week
old baby in New Mexico raped to death by Juan Galindo who held prior assault of
a minor, etc. and had been recently deported then skipped back illegally once
more to "begin a productive life." (try googling)Yes Gracie so
generous of you to "share"...
@ Gracie, "Legal and illegal are useful terms for those having agendas to
push." Legal = allowable/enforecable by being in conformity with the
law of the land. Illegal = antithesis. Not terms.Words - with
definitive meanings.No agenda attached.
As a Latter-day Saint, I fully believe in the 12th Article of Faith. However,
the falsehood it seems most Conservative Latter-day Saints here and elsewhere
seem to make it out like is that that means that to follow that, you can't work
to change laws. When Joseph Smith wrote that, he never said that following a
law meant you did not have the power to help change it.Further, for
all the law lovers out there, how many of you have never run a red light or jay
walked? When you look at history and a slightly bigger picture, and realize how
much the US has negatively influence events South of the Board that ultimately
inspired many of these illegals to feel the need to come here illegally, you
might feel a little kinder towards them, and realize how grey the issue really
is.We do need to deal with this issue, but let us do so with
fairness and kindness and less hate and fear. That is all the Utah Compact is
saying and why the church supports it.
The poll didn't ask me. I would like to see all illegals deported with their
entire families. Everything they acquired while here confiscated and sold. No
Dream Act. No work visas. No Spanish branches. No driver licenses. No welfare.
No health care. No education. No jobs. and MUST have to carry ID stating that
they are legally here. If not. Get out of our country. I would also like to see
the church stop encouraging illegals from remaining here by teaching them the
gospel. What ever happened to obeying the laws of the land? So, I believe that
illegals are a burden on this country. And they should be required to learn
English. No English, no service whatsoever. No Spanish translation on the phones
for bank service or any services. And then, seal the borders period. I would
rather spend the money to seal the border than to pay the cost in having them
illegally living here, stealing identities and social security numbers. And yes,
it does happen and yes, there is a black market they can go to to acquire fake
documentation. It is one way to prevent voter fraud.
@Way of the Warrior:"Aren't we all citizens of the same
planet?"Yes, but in our little corner of the planet we voted in
massive give-away programs which attracts the riffraff. Give-aways designed for
citizens, not the rest of the world. "Children of the same
God?"Which God? Would that be Allah, Jesus, or Buddha? "It's too bad political boundaries keep us from seeing people for
who they really are."We see others for who they are just
fine... from a distance... across a boundary line.
@Phill:"...the immigration system in this country it's broken,
corrupt."The immigration system is perfectly OK. What's broken
and corrupt is enforcement.Obama and Holder believe immigration is
totally the fed's responsibility, including enforcement. Certainly the US
Constitution states that the Congress shall establish an 'uniform rule of
naturalization' (Article 1.8.4). However, it says nothing about enforcement.
It's true that immigration rules have been established and codified in federal
law but it would seem states could provide enforcement since it is a herculean
task for the feds with just ICE as an enforcement agency. In fact, there are
provisions in federal immigration law which provides for the fed to partnership
with states for enforcement. What each state should do is work to ensure they
have such written authority as a first effort toward solving immigration
problems. If noting else, it would get Obama and Holder off their backs.I'm sure there must be myriads of examples where states aid the feds in
law enforcement such as, for example, illicit drug enforcement.
"Aren't we all citizens of the same planet? Children of the same God? How
petty we are. It's too bad political boundaries keep us from seeing people for
who they really are."I just love how God is brought into the
picture, as if there's no consequences for our actions. I'm glad there's
boundaries...I can't image what this country would look like if we had open
borders...it wouldn't be a country...not the one we know anyway.
@Gracie, nope. fallacious equation as JmThms has stated. much like orwell's
newspeak/doublethink many distort words to the point of outright contradiction
per agenda. orwell's 1984, "...whole aim of newspeak is to narrow the range
of thought." Your "bully's simplistic dictionary" assertion
belies such a desire to hijack/distort language as a means to an end. Try as you
may, "illegal" = illegal. check merriam-webster (the bully)
Immigration isn't about being equal in the sight of God. There have to be laws
and order. Without immigration laws and an orderly way for people to legally
enter the country, the U.S. would quickly be over-run by BILLIONS of people who
live in difficult circumstances. Sad, but it is reality...
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, magistrates, and in
obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. Or at least that's what I
re:Al Thepal"I think that the vast majority of legal immigrants are
good for the country, but that most illegal immigrants are a burden." I disagree. I believe there are many illegal immigrants who work
very hard and make positive contributions to American society. Wasn't there a
LDS Church Branch Pres./Bishop deported in the past year? Was he not an asset
to the branch/ward? I don't think one question about immigration
really reveals underlying Mormon attitudes about immigrants.
Just what is the position of the Church?From Handbook 2: "Members who
emigrate to any country should comply with applicable laws."But
as Hamlet says, the policy is "More honour'd in the breach than the
observance."Hence, Church policy is far from clear.
We're all immigrant's in God's country.
"To equate the illegality of the current illegal immigration to fugitive
slave laws is fallacious. The moral stature of the illegality of current illegal
immigration clearly is not nearly the same as that for historical slavery, and
the proponents of this argument know that." Not so. I, for one,
used a common situation to illustrate my point: slavery in any country may be
legal, as it was here, and returning escaped slaves might be mandatory by legal
systems, as returning illegal aliens is legal now. We do it even if they were
escaping danger back home; but there is nothing moral or ethical about doing so
whatsoever, only "legal." Definitions of key words as
"conservative" and "liberal" have been hijacked and
redefined narrowly by popular figures who rule any argument with an iron fist.
Bleeding heart" is back again, I see... Well, using the bully's simplistic
dictionary has always made it easier to intimidate and control the masses.
Critical thinking may not apply, not with impunity.
We live in the eastern time zone. We have volunteered to help with food
distribution and seen that it is mostly going to illegal immigrant families, few
of whom attend church and less are trying to live by Church standards. We don't
want anyone to starve, but if a little hunger would send them home, then we are
enabling law breaking. Also, a few come in cars and trucks that are more
expensive than what most members drive, meaning that they are using food
distribution to supplement their untaxed wages. I don't think Mormons in the
West understand what is happening to America's cities. Our schools and hospitals
are flooded with illegals. They drive without licenses and are often drunk
behind the wheel. For every hard working illegal there are three more riding the
system. We see that farmers, factories, and contractors are getting rich from
illegal labor, and we understand that they are robbing our children.
Aw, the never-ending immigration debate. Aren't we all citizens of the same
planet? Children of the same God? How petty we are. It's too bad political
boundaries keep us from seeing people for who they really are.
So Mormons aren't really different from evangelicals on this issue when adjusted
for the demographic characteristics of the sample...
To equate the illegality of the current illegal immigration to fugitive slave
laws is fallacious. The moral stature of the illegality of current illegal
immigration clearly is not nearly the same as that for historical slavery, and
the proponents of this argument know that. Again, nice try. And again, false
appeals to humanity or sharing or any other bleeding heart fallacy is
underhanded. The claim that lumping all immigrants into our broken legal or
illegal categories is inhumane is a fallacy of emotional appeal. Immigrants and
illegal aliens are two different things. Two separate policies should apply to
them. Also, if 'Conservatives' in Utah are driving this indistinction then these
'Conservatives' are endorsing a liberal behavior. The policy is liberal,
regardless of whether the perpetrators are nominally Conservative, Liberal,
Democrats or Republican.
I believe the thrust of this piece is accurate. LDS tend to have more moderate
and nuanced views on illegal immigration than comparable groups. I think it has
to do with our collective memory of being victims of mob mentality and
propoganda ourselves, and having to do what it took to survive.There
are those in other countries who will never be in a position to immigrate here
legally and have to endure danger and corruption even from their government and
police. I'm not condoning illegal immigration but I don't equate it
with robbing a bank, unlike many who routinely post on these threads. There
should be a path to legal status for some who have been decent and productive
and have deep roots and family ties here.
This comment roll has conducted its own survey, unscientific as it may be.Those that agree with RichardB (19 at this moment) out number those that
"liked" MormonDem (5 at this moment).Based on this I would
have to agree that 80% favor legal immigration and oppose illegal immigration.
The church has said that we need to enforce our laws but that we
need to realize that lives will be impacted and we need to treat illegal
immigrants humanely.I for one have no desire to make life harder for
those already having a rough time.I also think that we must enforce our
Illegal immigration and legal immigration are totally different. I absolutely
favor legal immigration and believe that it should be made easier for people
*from all over the world* to enter the United States--legally. I absolutely
oppose illegal immigration and all of the violence and crime that comes with it.
Please, let's separate the debate.
Legal and illegal are useful terms for those having agendas to push. Fugitive
Slave Laws were legal once too, to beg the point with an extreme but highly
promoted concept at that time. If you learn enough about how most of our
ancestors moved from country to country, even to America, you'll find very
little legality in the process. Many had to get permission from landlords who
considered them as serfs or slaves; allowing them safe passage elsewhere was
stuck-on-stupid for the landlords' bottom line. Many of our grandparents skipped
out, illegally. Whether or not we accepted them here is another issue, but these
had no "right" to initially leave the Old Country. Before WWII we,
America, legally sent many Jews back to their deaths rather than allow them to
disembark to a safe haven here. Our immigration system has been broken for
years. There are ways to fix it and deal with organized crime coming in. Lumping
all immigrants into our broken "legal or illegal" categories is
inhumane. We actually can take care of those who need help and come here to get
it and begin a productive life. Many just don't want to share.
I agree with many of the posters that there should be a distinction between
legal and illegal. I think that the vast majority of legal immigrants are good
for the country, but that most illegal immigrants are a burden. Through my service in the LDS Church as well as through my schooling at BYU, I
have known a lot of legal immigrants to this country and many of them are some
of the best citizens (or residents if they are not yet citizens) of this country
that I have ever met.
I guess I have a hard problem blaming the left for confusing legal and illegal
immigration. In Utah, the Conservatives seem to be leading this charge. One
would think Democrats might even take advantage of this and point out that it
hurts the average US worker. But, no, both sides want to encourage this law
breaking. Neither party is to be respected.
The largest issue highlighted by this article has already been touched on by
earlier comments: the purposeful confusing of legal immigration with ILLEGAL
immigration. The Left loves to do that. Nice try. Politically it works for them
- maybe it is the poor white evangelicals who fall for the trap - but of course
falls flat on any logical level. This issue of course has nothing to do with
"treating people equally" or "They are human beings just like
us" or "Immigrants are not a burden". And whether the 'real
issue' as one commenter suggested is poverty, violence and government corruption
in Mexico and other central American countries or not is NOT the primary concern
of the United States. The primary concern is stopping illegal immigration and
cleaning up the results of it. Its likely Mexico will be impoverished, violent
and corrupt for a long, long time but that does not mean we should be burdened
by illegal immigration for a long, long time.
The Pew study included ONE question on immigrants:"Which
statement comes closer to your own views even if neither is exactly right?Immigrants today strengthen our country because of their hard work and
talents ORImmigrants today burden our country because they take our jobs,
housing and healthcare."Results: 49% of 18-49 yr olds agreed
with strengthen, while only 39% of those over 50 agreed with strengthen.Mormon Republicans/ lean Republican 42% agreed immigrants strengthen and 44%
disagreed immigrants strengthen .Mormon Democrats/lean Democrat, the
percentages were 59% agree, 36% disagree.Of note, only 5% of Mormon
Democrats said neither or both statements are true while, 14% of Mormon
Republicans said neither or both statements are true.
Same old worn out rhetoric on immigration. I am referring to the comments on
here not the aricle. Why is it that so few are concerned about the real issue,
which is the poverty, violence, and government corruption in Mexico and other
central american countries. My wife is an immigrant and she has an incredible
work ethic. Immigrants are not a burden. They are human beings just like us.
Illegal immigration will stop when Mexico's economy provides jobs for it's
citizens. All the harsh laws will never stop illegal immigration because it is
an economic not a criminal problem.
The cost of harboring illegal immigrants in the United States is a staggering
$113 billion a year -- an average of $1,117 for every
ânative-headedâ household in America -- according to a study
conducted by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR).I
agree with the comments made about legal vs illegal. I fully support legal
immigration and the right to work for immigrants who follow the laws of the
land. The Federal Government and our elected officials continue to fail us on
protecting our borders against "ILLEGALS". Utah government has
offered suggestions and get hammered. Why do we allow government to sue
government - who wins? All parties need to come to a quick and ethical
RichardB is correct. A poll such as this asking questions about 'immigration'
really doesn't tell us much because some people will interpret it as 'illegal
immigration' and some more literally as all immigration.It is my
opinion that most people support legal immigration so what have we really
learned from such a poll?
Thank goodness that God doesn't think that 100% of humanity is NOT a burden to
This article is deceptive once again. Mormons favor Legal Immigration. At least
the Mormons I know. The Mormons I know do not favor illegal immigration and they
are also feeling the pains of being a Sanctuary state and loss of jobs for their
families, the high crime and high taxes.
@RichardB"The churches position is clear, immigrate legally and
countries have the right to enforce immigration laws"Immigrate
illegally and the church doesn't mind.
Problem is people see an immigrant and automatically they think that person is
illegal. How many times I have seen cashiers accepting credit cards from white
people but as soon as a latino shows up, that person is asked for
identification. How many times I have heard latinos trying to speak english at
public offices just to be immediately asked if they want a translator or a
spanish speaking representative. How are they going to learn if we don't let
them use their english skills just for the sake of saving us the effort of
trying to understand them? And how many times I have seen the discrimination in
our own wards when we don't integrate the latino families and they feel they are
not accepted. That's what's the brethren talked about when they said treat them
like your equals.
I'm pretty sure that if you rephrased the question, most Mormons would support
legal immigration and shun illegal immigration.The way this question
is asked is like asking "do you like drugs?" Well, yeah, I think
Tylenol and chemo are wonderful inventions. But I don't feel the same about
cocaine and heroin.
@Richard B. You are spot on. I agree completely.
@MormonDemI also am a Mormon Democrat...but let's get realistic here shall
we. We all know that illegal immigrants are only now somewhat vaguely
id'd...but definitely need to be further broken down into groups classifying
them further based on demographics of why they are coming in such great numbers
in the first place. Yes all are coming for better economic opportunities and
even freedom. But here is the realistic point that sorely begs to be addressed.
Among those groupings there has to be regognized that despite wanting to give
the benefit of the doubt to almost everyone...we simply can't...because hidden
among even a majority of basically good people there happens to be a large
criminal element that are here only to feed off of numerous societal
vices...Drugs, alcohol and tobacco as well as numerous other pirating and
contriband smuggling and trafficing opporations that support pornography,
prostitution, slavery... to include child labor, and child sex. There's also a
huge volume of illegal weapons smuggling as well...as is obviously being seen by
the huge increase of killings now being seen on both sides of our southern
borders. We have to drastically address these issues...period.
Mixing the two different groups is a form of suppression used by the National
media. Until we start talking about the illegal aspect of immigration, and doing
polls on illegal immigration, there cannot be honest discussion. The
rhetoric used by those that support illegal immigration, such as using the word
"undocumented" only confuses the issue and stops us from focusing on
the real names and issues.
Herrod said we need to get back to core values where you learn the language and
blend in. Anyone who studies history or looks at the census records while doing
family history knows that was never a core value or practice in our nation.
Immigrants lived in a community with others from their homeland and had no need
to learn the language or blend in. Their children went to school and learned to
do all that, so second generation immigrants were the ones blending and speaking
English. Today's immigrants are more likely to do that then past immigrants.
Having taught ESL at the LDS church, I can tell you they work very hard, but it
takes a very long time to become fluent, especially given the difference between
textbook English and ordinary English. Most of my students took English in
school in their homelands and thought they knew English until they got here and
tried to speak it to actual Americans with poor grammar and careless
Since illegal immigration is against the law, I,for one would have assumed
someone asking my opinion regarding immigration would have been referring to
LEGAL immigration.Unfortunately, there are so many institutionalized
advocates for ILLEGAL immigration I can no longer assume those doing the survey
aren't being deceptive in their survey.Surveys can (and are)being
manipulated to produce outcomes that those paying for the surveys desire.The survey SHOULD HAVE asked Mormons if they respect the law. THEN (and
only then)would the survey reflect reality.
GooD!.. RichardB, the immigration system in this country it's broken, corrupt.
Doesn't work, ineffective. It;s so bad that it encourages illegal immigration.
The Church has been clear on it's stance with immigration, neutral, but while
neutral, it has reached out support to the illegal immigrants, embracing them
you may say. General Authority's have spoken openly for humane laws tours them.
Illegal Immigrants can go on mission, attend temples and serve in the church.
The Church embraces them a bit different then the tone of opinion that you have
about them, but hey everyone is free to have an opinion. I guess that they can
be viewed differently under the scope of the gospel rather than the political
RichardB is exactly right. The issue is illegal vs legal immigrants. This
article is advancing a liberal view point. Go ahead and sugarcoat it anyway you
want, but illegal is illegal - Article of Faith#12: "We believe in being
subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and
sustaining the law" - how can you be any more black and white than that?
The use of the word immigration for legal and illegal immigration is deceptive,
and it is meant to elicit a specific response. Most are for legal immigration,
but against illegal immigration. So combining the two does not give a clear
picture. It's dishonest and deceptive. @MormonDem, I never said a
word about evangelicals. Perhaps an explanation is in order? The
churches position is clear, immigrate legally and countries have the right to
enforce immigration laws. If the question was about just illegal immigration,
how high do you think the percentage would be.
RichardB: are you suggesting that Mormons were confused by the question but
evangelicals were not?Sorry, but the Church's position on
immigration is clear. I'm just disappointed that 41% of Mormons haven't yet
taken the Brethren's counsel on the issue to heart.
I'm pretty sure no one was confused by the question. Everybody knows what you
are talking about when asked about their position on immigration.Even the trolls living under rocks.
I think that this question is a very DISHONORABLE one!I cannot imagine ANY
practicing LDS having a problem with an immigrant.Now, an ILLEGAL ALIEN is
a whole different story!
I would like to see an honest poll, that divides legal and illegal. Combining
the two discredits the question.