The Iraq pullout

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  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 23, 2011 10:17 a.m.

    'Yeah, the form in which one of the world's worst sponsors of terrorism is prevented from achieving nuclear arms.' - Nate | 12:10 a.m. Dec. 23, 2011

    But...I thought Iraq HAD Nuclear weapons? That's what we were lead to believe.

    "The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons.' - George W. Bush - Ohio Speech 10/7/2002

    And what was found...?

    *'US gives up search for Iraq WMD' - BBC News - 01/12/05

    'Mr Duelfer reported last year that Iraq had no stockpiles of chemical or biological weapons at the time of the US-led invasion nearly two years ago.'

    And what was accomplished?

    *'Cost Of Wars In Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan To Reach $3.7 Trillion' - By Elise Foley - Huffington Post - 06/29/11

    *'U.S. Military deaths in Iraq war at 4,485 - AP - Published by the DSNews - 12/20/2011

    Almost $4 trillion in debt, and 4,000 Americans, dead.

    Rhetoric is nice. How we would be 'welcome with flowers' to Iraq.

    But the reality is harsh.

    We had NO reason to be in Iraq.

    And we LOST, so much, when we did.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 23, 2011 9:33 a.m.

    Is anyone watching the news these days? ONE WEEK after the last of our troops leave and Iraq is already teetering. The arrest of the highest ranking Sunni in the government, coordinated bombings around Baghdad, the PM saying he sees no reason to share oil revenue with the opposition party, etc. etc. After nine years of effort, it is shaky after one week?? Stupid and unnecessary war ends badly...where have we read that headline before??

    Now that that mistake is done (except for the State dept. left in our LARGEST embassy in the world), we need to accelerate the pullout from Afghanistan since the same principle applies there. We could stay 50 years and not fix all their problems. Get out soon or declare it the 51st State.

  • Nate Pleasant Grove, UT
    Dec. 23, 2011 12:10 a.m.

    @marxist "The Iraqis had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 or Al Qaeda...."
    @Happy Valley Heretic "...[W]e were waiting for Al Qaeda to get to Iraq, since they were never there before we got there."

    Read up on the biography of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. He was trained by Bin Laden in Afghanistan, and was active in northern Iraq long before our arrival. British intelligence says that he had established terrorist sleeper cells in Baghdad in advance of the U.S. occupation. It was in 2004 that he officially joined Al Qaeda and pledged to follow Osama bin Laden. This was when he changed the name of his organization to Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia. Al Qaeda operatives flocked to Iraq, and it was there that they suffered a strategic defeat at the hands of the U.S. military. They had wanted to move into the power vacuum and gain control of Iraq's oil reserves, which opportunity we denied them. True, Zarqawi and most of his organization weren't Iraqis, but Iraq was the battleground they chose. And yes, it was a critical victory for us.

    @pragmatistferlife

    I brought up Iraq and Afghanistan because Iran is assisting our enemies there. Were you unaware of this?

    "Are you going to invade [etc.]? There are limits to what not just we should do but what we can do."

    There was a perfectly good democratic opposition movement in Iran. Invasion wouldn't have been necessary; assistance and encouragement would have been sufficient. Obama wasted the opportunity. His failure has increased the likelihood that invasion will be necessary.

    "You are basiclly [sic] proposing a form of isolationism."

    Yeah, the form in which one of the world's worst sponsors of terrorism is prevented from achieving nuclear arms.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Dec. 22, 2011 4:34 p.m.

    Nate said: In Iraq we won a critical victory over Al Qaeda. The key element was patience.

    Yes it was patience, we were waiting for Al Qaeda to get to Iraq, since they were never there before we got there.
    as Marxist also pointed this out.

    Nate also said later: By offering to engage with its dictators; by opposing meaningful sanctions; by staying neutral toward the pro-democracy movement in Iran; by recognizing Syria, Iran's client state; and by dithering while Iran builds nuclear weapons.

    Reagan and ollie and Iran contra come to mind.
    Never trust warmongers!

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Dec. 22, 2011 12:51 p.m.

    Wow Nate you even got Neville Chamberlin in. You pass the fox new quiz. First of all we were talking about the appeasement of the President towards Iran, not Iraq, Afrganistan, and the Palestinians..only important because of the limited number of words here.

    Secondly, so nuclear weapons don't belong in the hands of loonies, are you going to invade Pakhisthan, India, or just Russia? There are limits to what not just we should do but what we can do.

    Buying off; you do realize that sanctions aren't harmless games. The sactions we oppose could easily crush the world economy plus kill thousands of Iranians. Syria, is a soverign state with a role to play in the world just as Russia is who also are allies of Iran. You are basiclly proposing a form of isolationism.

    Lastly; dithering..are you saying that if we don't attack we are dithering. I surely hope you are a member of the military and willing to sacrafice your personal life for this..because if not your just spewing nonesense (only word they'll allow here).

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 22, 2011 12:18 p.m.

    Re: Nate "In Iraq we won a critical victory over Al Qaeda." I believe this statemnt is completely false. The Iraqis had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11 or Al Qaeda, even though George W Bush and Condoleeza Rice tried to convince us otherwise (subsequently confirmed as false). The lesson we should learn from Iraq is don't take what the Commander In Chief says at face value.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Dec. 22, 2011 11:25 a.m.

    The day of the dictator is over? I really don't think so.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 22, 2011 11:14 a.m.

    If we had just had the good sense to quit when the purpose of the war had been accomplished, the day of the Mission Accomplished sign, hundreds of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars could have been saved.

    And Iraq would probably be no more a threat to America than it is now.

  • Nate Pleasant Grove, UT
    Dec. 22, 2011 9:57 a.m.

    @pragmatisferlife "...[J]ust what principles are we sacrificing...?"

    It's weird that you have to ask, but let's start with the principles that nuclear weapons don't belong in the hands of loonies; that it's evil to sponsor terrorist groups such as Hezbollah who kill U.S. citizens; and that it's an act of war to provide money, weapons, and training to our enemies in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    "Just how is the president buying off Iran...?"

    By offering to engage with its dictators; by opposing meaningful sanctions; by staying neutral toward the pro-democracy movement in Iran; by recognizing Syria, Iran's client state; and by dithering while Iran builds nuclear weapons.

    "...[T]he practice has been called diplomacy...."

    Yes, that's what Neville Chamberlain called it.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Dec. 22, 2011 8:59 a.m.

    "The war might be over, but America won't be finished...for a long, long time. The heavy price we've paid in suffering and expense must never be forgotten, along with the many lessons we hope American military and political leaders have learned about how not to fight a war."

    =================

    Here, wait a minute, let me take a look at a calendar....
    Nope, I thought it was 1975 while I was reading this.

    Sound verbatim like post-Vietnam articles.

    Those who don't learn from History, are bound to repeat it.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Dec. 22, 2011 8:31 a.m.

    Nice Nate you found the word... appeasement. For centuries the practice has been called diplomancy and was an honorable and civil way to interact with ones supposed enemies, especially when the alternative was too costly in lives and treasure. Now it's appeasement to the so called conservatives.

    Appease, as used by republicans means to buy off at the cost of principles. Just how is the President buying off Iran, and just what principles are we sacraficing by not screaming and calling Iran names..or heaven forbid invading them?

  • Nate Pleasant Grove, UT
    Dec. 22, 2011 7:42 a.m.

    "The heavy price we've paid in suffering and expense must never be forgotten, along with the many lessons we hope American military and political leaders have learned about how not to fight a war."

    Let's also remember the lessons we learned about how *to* fight the war. In Iraq we won a critical victory over Al Qaeda. The key element was patience. We had to hold steady until our terrorist enemies revealed their true nature to the populace, and then cultivate relationships with those Iraqis who recoiled from terrorist rule. It took great courage to leave our bases and go out into the communities to offer them security. That's what it took to win.

    "For better or worse, Saddam Hussein's ouster served notice around the region that the day of the dictator is over."

    This remains to be seen. It is hard to imagine that there would have been an Arab Spring without the prior images of Saddam in his spider hole, and on the gallows.

    "America appears to have learned its lesson, as evidenced by the far smarter way it pursues its enemies today."

    If the writer is talking about Obama's appeasement toward Iran, I'm not buying it. We had a clear opportunity to help their democracy movement a couple of years ago, and squandered it. Not too smart.

    "Iraq is far from being problem-free, but at least it's free. Let's hope that's not the problem."

    ...As if there's anything better than freedom.