Ahh, finally they must be counting the Mormon's amongst the Christians and thus
the number of Christians are growing.
To non believers: Why should God's existence be proven? You would dismiss it
as a hoax or magic, and still wouldn't believe. How many times did Jesus
Christ, in the flesh, stand before multitudes of people, and they still did not
believe He was the son of God? The idea that physical evidence of
God will suddenly make you believers, is a joke.
Here's the deal, folks: Religion, or the lack thereof, for the most part, boils
down to early endoctrination of said religion. There are some who may
"change" religions; and there are some, like myself - brought up
Mormon - who do not believe at all because evolution makes more sense...to me.
That does not make me right; it also does not make the religious - insert
denomination here - right. I'm sure, Mountanman, that if you were born a few
hundred years ago into a Native American family, your belief system would be
much different from what it is today, because that is the belief system you
would be taught. Doesn't make it right or wrong. So, if there is a God, how
about we let God decide my fate, not those of you who believe you speak for God!
Ah, such a simple answer: "He hasn't told us yet." But we
"know" He didn't come from nothing, yet somehow He is. Magical!
I sure wish the defenses of god offered repeatedly by believers were persuasive.
It would be so fun to live in a universe ruled by an omnipotent, omniscient,
benevolent old, bearded man - just like it was fun to believe in Santa Claus as
a child.Unfortunately, your arguments are so tired, thin, and
ineffective as to be kind of sad, really.And yet you attack science
and the progress that science has given us. It seems pretty simple to do a
comparison:Your "faith" says the power of god can move
mountains. Atomic energy has not only demonstrated the moving of mountains, but
the obliteration of mountains.Your "faith" says god can
heal sickness, but science has found cures for a long list of what were once
fatal diseases. No consecrated oil, prayers, and fasting have a track record
like science.Your faith pales in comparison to what mankind has
accomplished with science despite religious totalitarianism, violence,
prejudice, dispute, and waste.If there is to be salvation of the
human race, it will not come from ghosts and spirits, it will come from science.
The Atheist | 11:31 a.m. Dec. 22, 2011 Provo, UT "Then, explain
if you can, how the divinely designed universe continues to try to destroy human
beings - tsunamis, earthquakes, disease, etc. - seems obvious if there is a
divine "Watchmaker", he was an incompetent or malicious one! "@The Atheist, I wish I had more room to try to explain. Those who do
believe God (and I would argue there are many who believe in a God, but don't
necessarily believe what He says), understand that our mortal life is just a
blip in the radar. Whatever suffering we may be put thru allows us to learn
many things -- and those learning experience vary from one person to another.
We can chose to take advantage of the learning experiences or we can choose to
wallow. It really doesn't matter how long we are here. We were promised a
body. We were given a body. We may only have our mortal life for a short time.
It is just a step in our overall eternal progression. I don't care if there is
no scientific proof of any of this. For me, I know it is true as I do believe
@ xscribe..Where did God come from? Well, all we know is that He didn't come
from nothing! He hasn't told us yet the anwwer to that question. I am certain
someday He will but until that time, we can either have faith or we can choose
to believe other theories!To Quote Albert Einstein (who was an expert in
physics), refering to the high but ever decaying levels of energy of matter,
"who wound the watch"? Interesting question, one that according to his
biography, convinced him of intelligent design!
@ Mountanman | 11:02 a.m. Dec. 22, 2011 ...I used to work with high
explosives and I never saw, nor did I ever hear or read about an explosion
organizing matter. Explosions always do just the opposite, they disorganize
matter.first, I wonder how working with high explosives indicates
the inner workings of the universe. I doubt you worked with hydrogen and the
other elemental building blocks of the Universe in the past, but rather with
compounds designed to destroy not build. Second, with your past experience it
may have appeared to "disorganize" but did you wait around 13.7
Billion years (or even 10 years) to study what the side effects of those
explosions delivered. the elements of the universe did not coalesce immediately
but have continued for eons nor has it finished. I absolutely believe in God
and recognize that He has at His command the secrets of the Universe and his
method used "could" have been "The Big Bang" but our
understanding of this is obviously not total and again 13.7 Billion years after
the fact. Lastly, How did an article on religious demographics turn
into a point/counterpoint on creationism?
@ the AtheistInteresting that you put your faith in the
"clear" evidence of an expanding universe.In the 80's, we
were certain that the expansion of the universe was slowing down, and that we
were in an infinite loop of expansion, slow down, retraction, explosion,
expansion, etc.Now we are certain it is speeding up in its expansion
(which by the way, decreases the odds of life creating itself by almost
infinity, even if you believe that's possible).Makes me wonder what
we'll be certain of 30 years from now. Just sayin.
Apparently those who believe in Big Bang are irrational, yet those who believe
there is some being - who, by the way, would also have had to come "from
nothing" - are rational. This is my biggest argument with religion: I'm
right, you're wrong, period. There is no proof either way, yet I just don't see
that many nonbelievers out there knocking door to door trying to get people
"not to believe." But, hey, apparently working with high explosives
makes you an expert in physics and matter!
@ The Atheist. "Worlds without number have I created and my works never
cease"... God to Moses. That explains the expansion of the universe.Suffering comes from the misuse of agency..freedom to choose sometimes
impacts others negatively. Suffering is temporary but if we endure it well,it
will give us experience and be for our benefit--God to Joseph Smith.Death
is part of the plan of salvation. Everthing that lives will die! No death; no
eternal life. Perhaps 100 years from now when we are both dead, our persective
of death and suffering will be very different than it is today! I hope that
helps answer your questions. Merry Christmas!
Mountainman,Your weak "argument from design" is not
persuasive.And since you believe in the divine order in the
universe, please tell us how you explain the clear evidence that the universe is
expanding, and also the clear evidence of entropy.Then, explain if
you can, how the divinely designed universe continues to try to destroy human
beings - tsunamis, earthquakes, disease, etc. - seems obvious if there is a
divine "Watchmaker", he was an incompetent or malicious one!
Atheists are prideful?What is prideful about admitting that you do
NOT know there is a god?What is prideful about refusing to pretend
to "spiritual gifts" the way religionists do to appear righteous and
"chosen of God"?What is prideful about being honest and
rational about life?And most important, why do believers continue to
try to SHAME others into belief, "joining", and conformity?
@ m.g Scott..Most atheists point to the so called "big bang" theory to
explain how everything was created. I used to work with high explosives and I
never saw, nor did I ever hear or read about an explosion organizing matter.
Explosions always do just the opposite, they disorganize matter. I may take a
pile of lumber, some metal and blow it up with explosives forever but I will
never get a computer, an automobile or a universe as a result! The big bang
theory is very, very difficult to believe for a rational mind! But what else to
they have to lean their idea's on?
@SammyB"Most LDS people do not share the gospel out of arrogance, but
out of love and conviction. "Right, my point was merely to
suggest that some Christians can be succeptible to being prideful and thinking
they know all the answers, just as some atheists are capable of doing so as Sir
Robin noted. It was not my intention to try and condemn Christians. Personally I don't have all the answers, or at least I have no idea if my
individual beliefs/answers (that are definitely christian but don't realy match
up with any denomination) are actually correct. @VSTWhat is
the scientific definition of a firstname.lastname@example.org. scott"Where
did all of the matter in the universe come from? By your belief system you'd
have to say that something can come from nothing"Well I'm going
to answer this two ways. First, my personal answer is God. You can believe in
evolution and believe in God. Evolution doesn't disprove God, it would only
disprove a literal interpretation of Genesis 1-2. Second, belief system? How
about "I don't know."; is that not a valid response? Evolutionists
don't have to believe something came from nothing.
@Cats"Stating the fullness of the truth that has been revealed and
established by the Saviour of the world is not prideful"It
could be, depending on how you go about it. My point was merely that Sir Robin
implied that atheists think they have it all figured out and can act prideful
and I think religious people can be just as prideful.@SammyB"and one told the group that he knew this place and could show them a
path that led to a live-saving oasis, would they say to him, "you are
prideful for thinking you know a way to water"?"I don't
think that scenario fully applies. That would require the person to know they
have the right path, for sure... 100%. I think a lot of people in a lot of
religions and denominations think they have that yet surely they can't all be
right. So it's a bit more like one person in the group being pretty darn sure
that the life-saving oasis is this way but without all the evidence for it
because you have to take it on faith.
m.g. scott | 10:41 a.m. Dec. 22, 2011 LAYTON, UT "To RanchHand
and any other evolutionists. Answer this question. Where did all of the matter
in the universe come from? By your belief system you'd have to say that
something can come from nothing. You have to be living by faith as much as any
religious person does to believe that. Agree? "@m.g.scott, I am
not an evolutionist. I am faithful LDS. But the silliness in your argument is
that someone could ask you right back "Where did God come from"?
There are no answers to either of these positions.
To RanchHand and any other evolutionists. Answer this question. Where did all
of the matter in the universe come from? By your belief system you'd have to
say that something can come from nothing. You have to be living by faith as
much as any religious person does to believe that. Agree?
RanchHand | 9:46 a.m. Dec. 22, 2011 Huntsville, UT "@Cats;It isn't courageous, it's annoying. Not to mention "I am accountable for
stating it and you are accountable for hearing it." is definitely arrogant
and prideful"Well said RanchHand ... AS IF God is going to hold
someone accountable to "hearing" the gospel on an internet comment
board. Oh my heck that is the best I've heard yet!
@Mountanman;There's more evidence for this theory than your belief
that some omnipotent being created it all. And more and more evidence keeps
coming forth.Intelligent design feasible? Not so much really. It
certainly is NOT proof enough.@Cats;It isn't courageous, it's
annoying. Not to mention "I am accountable for stating it and you are
accountable for hearing it." is definitely arrogant and prideful.
It is couragous of people who explore the philosophies of the world and
thoroughly educate themselves with facts without limitation. I guarantee there
are several people who have limitations on their education, but do not realize
it.To Cats,"I am accountable for stating it and you are
accountable for hearing it."Thanks Cats, please put another
star under your name.
ATL 134I believe that Christ Himself felt confident that He
understood the truth. Surely, His apostles also had that faith and conviction.
There is quite a difference between faith and pride. Often I have
reflected on this argument and have an analogy. If a group of people were lost
in a desert and dying of thirst, and one told the group that he knew this place
and could show them a path that led to a live-saving oasis, would they say to
him, "you are prideful for thinking you know a way to water"?Perhaps they would not listen or follow, and that is their choice. But if he
sincerely believes he knows how to get to the true water of life (Christ), then
how cruel if he does not follow the strict command of Jesus just before His
ascension. He said His disciples were to go into all the world, preaching His
gospel. Each person who believes those words can chose to share his/her
testimony of the Lord as they believe Christ taught. Most LDS people do not
share the gospel out of arrogance, but out of love and conviction.
@ ranchHand. Do you have proof that your ancestors decended from trees? Or is
it just a belief on your part? It seems belief (faith)is required no matter
what! You have faith you decended from apes, the rest of us have faith in
something much, much larger! As we look at the magnificent order and beauty of
creation, isn't it much more feasible that there is intelligent design in it
all? Isn't that proof enough? What more proof would convince you?
Dear atl34: Stating the fullness of the truth that has been revealed and
established by the Saviour of the world is not prideful--it is courageous. I am
accountable for stating it and you are accountable for hearing it.
This just points out that people are as superstitious today as they were when
our primal ancestors first descended from the trees and attempted to walk
upright.Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. They all provide some
benefit, yes (as Larry Lawton points out), but they have also been known to be
the source of much tragedy on this planet.Either way, it is still
nothing more than belief with no proof.
Noodlekaboodle | 5:58 p.m. Dec. 21, 2011 Salt Lake City, UT "Did anyone else notice that the places with the greatest growth in
christianity are the poorest least educated places in the world....... Just
sayin." Pretty similar to 2000 years ago, too.
Cool, this article said that Mormon's are Christians, guess when they want to
get more numbers they will count us. Is there a double standard as to when we
count and when we don't?
@ Noodlekaboodle: Yes, Christianity has succeeded best among the poor -- I'd say
among the humble. Few come to Zion who are content in Babylon. My family's
experience might be typical. Why "Mormon" missionaries would waste
their time on the "wrong side of the tracks" cannot be justified if
wealth is a criterion. But they did, and we embraced the faith. I am old enough
to remember the difference that made in our home. While too many of my cousins
dealt with alcoholism, broken families and poor economic prospects, my sibs and
I were blessed with a religious background and the resulting stable family life.
In turn, we enjoyed successful marriages, were educated for the professions, and
passed the faith on to most of our children and grandchildren. Even if viewed
through the narrow prism of economic success, religion was the turning point for
@patriot"bad news for liberals!!!! "1. As a liberal
Christian myself I don't see why this would be bad news.2. The gains
(relative to the population of a nation) are primarily in nations that are not
America so that really wouldn't affect US politics.@Brave Sir
RobinOne could just as easily say that those who claim their denomination
is the authority on truth are people who think they've got it all figured out
(in other words, people who are full of pride).
As the numbers grow, we pray for peace on earth good will towards all.
What is the rate of growth compared to non-Christians? The overall numbers
sounds high, but it almost looks like the non-Christian group is growing at a
higher rate than the Christian group is, compared to the overall world
@NoodlekaboodleYep, I did notice that. Could it be because the
poorest places have the most humble people? In wealthy nations, you tend to get
more people that think they've got it all figured out (in other words, people
who are full of pride).
I don't think Christ would recognise his philosophies in people who claim to be
his followers today.
Did anyone else notice that the places with the greatest growth in christianity
are the poorest least educated places in the world....... Just sayin.
Why is that bad news for liberals?
"Christians now number more than 2 billion around the world"oh no - bad news for liberals!!!!