View from the Booth: 1st Pac-12 season was educational

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  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dec. 4, 2011 4:40 p.m.

    @Just the FAX | 10:41 a.m. Dec. 4, 2011

    True, you need great coaching to go with the talent. Utah has the coaching, according to Tennessee.

    True, Idaho has players in the NFL but since 2005, KW and Bronco's first seasons, does Idaho have:

    21 players drafted like Utah?
    Or over the same period like Oregon with 24 NFL players?
    Or 16 players like UCLA from the biggest recruiting market in LA.
    Or do they have 11 players like BYU and Colorado?
    But I seriously doubt they have 40+ NFL players like USC.
    I even doubt they had 9 players like the other WAC team from Idaho Boise.

    So, you are wrong Utah has the talent they just lack the depth. For example, just look at our 2nd String D2 QB yet we had 3 first team PAC-12 players; I think only behind USC, Oregon, Stanford.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Dec. 4, 2011 2:41 p.m.


    "In any case, no matter how bad their season was, they still managed to "get by" BYU by a mere 44 points...."

    That will always be the most important and meaningfull thing for utah "fans".

    Plus que les choses changent plus ils restent les memes.


  • Mr.Reality Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 4, 2011 2:19 p.m.

    Just the FAX-

    Utah has had two undefeated seasons and two BCS wins (combined score 66-24) in the last 7 years. You don't to that without recruiting talent. And they recruited all that talent while playing in the Mountain West. With the upgrade to the Pac 12, it is hard to imagine there won't be an upgrade in talent.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    Dec. 4, 2011 12:21 p.m.

    @Mr Reality

    ...and what did it get them...a share of money that someone else earned and whose coattails Utah rode into town on...Big Deal!!! Injuries like every other facet are part of the game...your analogy still carries little merit. Heaps had a horrible day....the utes won the game because they had a better day... just simply another facet...and unfortunately it too was part of the game. You win some and you lose some...but this year BYU at least didn't have to depend on someone else to reap it's rewards... which are no small potatoes compared to what they and Utah earned in the years they dominated the MWC. The good part is that those days and the self destructive ego of Craig Thompson are in the past.

  • Mr.Reality Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 4, 2011 11:55 a.m.

    The Utes did have a somewhat disappointing season. Certainly, the loss to Colorado was inexcusable. But if you look at the facts, the only game they lost with their #1 QB was the down-to-the-wire game against USC in the Coliseum. You remember USC? They same team that put a licking on "invincible" Oregon? In any case, no matter how bad their season was, they still managed to "get by" BYU by a mere 44 points.....

  • Mr.Reality Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 4, 2011 10:50 a.m.


    If you hate the Utes sooo much, why do you dedicate your time to them? Have considered getting your own life?

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    Dec. 4, 2011 10:41 a.m.


    "Go look at the NFL draft."

    IDAHO has players playing in the NFL.

    Great individual talent doesn't translate into great teams.

    If you're going strictly on great recruiting classes and NFL draftees, Utah should just pack it in now and accept perennial mediocrity because the Utes will NEVER be able to match the teams in the upper half of the the PAC 12 conference in talent - USC, Oregon, UCLA, Stanford, Washington, Cal, and ASU will always have higher ranked recruiting classes than Utah.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    Dec. 4, 2011 8:17 a.m.

    Utah95 did all of that research and added up all those figures and your boys still didn't leave their matches and gasoline at home like they should have. They didn't learn from last year. They were too caught up in planning for the big celabratory bonfire. Instead they left their game at home... but not thier matches and extra cans of gasoline. Unfortunately...the lights went out early so instead of supposedly lighting the fire they planned for at the end of the season... what to them and in the mindset of their fans seemed to be an obvious. them being the "Big Success of the West"... they ended up trying to see thier way out of a major crash site and wound up setting only themselves on fire. Keep running those figures along with the others who still don't get it yet...that Utah is nothing but Great Pretenders...and really can't fly with Eagles

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dec. 4, 2011 1:06 a.m.

    Duckhunter | 9:19 p.m. Dec. 3, 2011
    But one thing that has never been satisfactorily explained by pac12 apologists is how a bottom feeding team like colorado, beating a mediocre team like utah, proves that the pac12 is so tough and loaded with talent?


    Oh Ducky. How about you do your own homework. Go look at the NFL draft.

    Colorado has the same talent as BYU, the difference one plays a WAC-lite schedule the other doesn't.

  • mr. j Cottonwood Hts., Ut
    Dec. 4, 2011 12:24 a.m.

    Look...54-10...nuff said. We coulda con 1-11 this year but we'd still have 54-10. It means id have to take a lotta heat from fans of the other 11 teams but not from cougars cause i'd still have enjoyed a 54-10 beatdown on byu.

    Great season utes.(and not just cause we beat byu)

    And all things considered, it was a great season.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    Dec. 3, 2011 10:20 p.m.

    After 1 year of PAC-12 recruiting Utah was 2 missed field goals from finishing 4th in the PAC-12 with a D2 QB.

    As far as I am concerned that is a bat start. But, losing to Colorado was embarrassing, as embarrassing as BYU fans now pretending to be Buffs.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Dec. 3, 2011 9:22 p.m.


    If colorado beat usc or oregon then lesson #3 might be true. But of course they didn't. None of the bottom feeders beat either of those teams. Beating a mediocre utah team proves exactly nothing.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Dec. 3, 2011 9:19 p.m.


    All I listed were the ones that beat utah, not the ones that upset any of the other top MWC teams. But you know what? You might be partially correct. Those bottom teams in the MWC were incapable of beating BYU, Bronco never lost to any of them beside SDSU. I'm not sure if TCU ever lost to any of them either. Only utah, of the supposedly 'top' mwc team lost to all of the bottom feeders.

    But if you want to include everyone in the pac12 please tell me the last time the bottom feeders beat either usc or oregon?

    But one thing that has never been satisfactorily explained by pac12 apologists is how a bottom feeding team like colorado, beating a mediocre team like utah, proves that the pac12 is so tough and loaded with talent? Neither of those teams is particularly good so all it proves to me is that a really bad team can beat a pretty average team no matter what conference they are members of.

    Lesson #3 is a joke.


  • Uncle Rico Provo, UT
    Dec. 3, 2011 8:39 p.m.

    I'll admit Utah had a disappointing, but I'm surpised they did as well as they did after Wynn went down and they had to go with a QB who had no experience.

    Utah didn't have any good quality wins however.
    Utah did beat 3 teams that ended up bowl eligible (BYU, Pitt, and UCLA).

    BYU fans, you have no room to talk. BYU beat 1 bowl eligible team all season (USU).
    When you lose to your rival by 44 points and the only bowl eligible team you beat is going to "The Famous Idaho Potato Bowl", you can't say you have a better team, sorry.

    Dec. 3, 2011 8:27 p.m.


    You did nothing to "prove" that Riley's #3 assertion that in the Pac-12 you have no weeks off, is false. What he was saying is true. The level of competition is solid from top to bottom, and on any given week even the teams at the bottom of the conference are capable of pulling off an upset. The same cannot be said for teams in the MWC, and if you truly follow that conference, you know that on any given year, there are at least 3 or 4 teams that will not have a chance of beating the better teams.

    The list that you provided covered MWC teams over a 6 year period. That is not the same as it happening every year. And all you have to do is follow such teams as UNLV this year (2-10), Colorado State (3-9), and New Mexico (1-10) to see how in a typical year, the bottom 1/3 of the MWC has no chance whatsoever of beating the upper half of the teams in the conference.

    Lesson #3 is absolutely true.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Dec. 3, 2011 4:45 p.m.


    But it is a myth. Read what I wrote again.

    "the myth that simply because a school is in the pac12, or bcs, they somehow have superior athletes"

    Boise st is not on the pac12 or the bcs. TCU is not in the pac12 or the bcs. Houston is not in the pac12 or the bcs. Tell me do you believe that duke, kentucky, colorado, vanderbilt, ole miss, pittsburgh, etc. have "superior" athletes to those non pac12 non bcs schools?

    No they don't. But those schools are bcs schools. So it would seem that "simly being in the pac12, or bcs" does not mean that school automatically has superior athletes. It is a myth.

    Now if you want to claim that pac12, or bcs, schools 'generally' have superior athletes I might agree, might. There is a reason those schools and conferences are 'generally' considered to be better. But a simple claim that they all have superior athletes cannot be substantiated and can actually be shown to be dubious much easier than it can be proven.

    Lesson #3 is false.

  • jarka-rus Layton, Utah
    Dec. 3, 2011 3:21 p.m.


    Also in the record books

    17-14 to a 2 win team.

  • jarka-rus Layton, Utah
    Dec. 3, 2011 3:06 p.m.

    Hey utesies?

    So how did a team with a Sagarin of #37 just wallop a team with a Sag of #10? hmmm how is this possible?

    And do any of you realize that a football team plays more than one game? Love how even you ute "fans" don't even recognize that your team beat any other teams, just your big brothers at the Y(which was a fluke). But I can understand, it means nothing to beat OSU, Zona, Wazzoooo and the buffs(oops lol).

    54-10, well I got one for ya as well. 1984 National champions!!

  • Colorado's BFF Springville, UT
    Dec. 3, 2011 1:57 p.m.

    Big Daddy Utah

    And the Utes are Colorado's BFF (Best Friends Forever) for 2011!

    And remember the only thing worse than Buffs football these past 4 years on the road is, uh... losing to them.

    On behalf of all Buffs, thank you Utah. That trumps a 54-10 loss to Utah anyday!

    It's great to be both a Cougar and Buff fan.

  • Big Daddy Utah SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Dec. 3, 2011 12:00 p.m.

    Cougar fans are hilarious. Head to head, the Utes beat you 54-10. Enough said.

  • MiP Iowa City, IA
    Dec. 3, 2011 11:44 a.m.

    "Referring to Arizona (#81), Washington State (#92), Oregon State (#96) and Colorado (#100) as the Big Boys is worrisome.

    Utah State (#74) is ranked higher than any of them. As it turns out, the teams BYU played from the WAC are ranked about the same as the bottom five teams Utah played from the PAC12."

    Of course you would choose CBS, as they have the Cougars rated higher than the Utes. Of course Utah'95 would use Sagarin, as Sagarin currently has the Utes at 38, BYU 45. So which is the better team remains debatable.

    I would argue that a 10-3 Cougar team would be as stetchy as last year's Ute 10-3 team to make the Top-25. Remembering that last year 2 of the 3 Ute losses happened vs top-10 teams, both had blow-out losses (40 to TCU, 44 to Utah) and a cupcake laden schedule. The Utes landed on the final coaches but not the AP.

    Also, CBS Sports does not include FCS teams in their rankings. Sagarin rankings include those teams (i.e Sagarin has Montana State at 91, which is higher than Hawaii, SJSU, NMSU, Idaho, and Idaho State).


    Dec. 3, 2011 11:38 a.m.

    Gosh all of you guys are just childish, throwing out dumb "stats" like that to try and prove a point, who has time to do that? First off, both Utah and Byu played bellow expectations so get over each other. Second, Utah beat BYU (2 years in a row now) so BYU fans should not start baggin on the Utes. That makes your team even look more awful (you do realize this right?). In regards to the article, I think that the Utes did just fine this year for the position they were put in with injuries and for it being their first year in a premier conference. It is D-I football people, anyone can beat anyone. They will be fine, they just need a couple of recruiting classes under their belts. This year was a lot more fun to watch just because every game meant something. So much better than the MWC, and a hell of a lot better than boring independence.

    I love my Utes. John White for President.

  • 54-10 Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 3, 2011 11:05 a.m.

    Head to head was 54-10 a LES.

    Excuses continue from Cougar "fan".

    Love it.

  • Utah'95 FPO, AE
    Dec. 3, 2011 11:00 a.m.


    What I took exception with was, "..the myth that simply because a school is in the pac12, or bcs, that they somehow have superior athletes..."

    ESPN, Rivals, and Scout annually publish that the Pac-12 has more talent than the MWC and WAC (BYU's and Utah's previous conferences, and in the case of the Cougars, 7 of their 12 2011 opponents). If my (and their) opinion on this isn't good enough, then float your statement by some buddies that aren't emotionally invested in the Utah-BYU rivalry and see what they think of your "myth theory."

    You did bring up a good point about Utah having a habit of losing games they should win. The infamous UNLV game, and Utah's recent faceplant at home to Colorado are excellent examples. I have long respected BYU's habit of winning the games they are supposed to, and wished the Utes did better in this category.


    phoenix and jarka-rus,

    Sagarin's ratings don't always predict the outcome. Utah's 44 point win is in the record books. It matters more than a prediction on a 2011 Utah-BYU rematch that won't be played.

    "WAC PAC, really no difference." You're really going with that?

  • CougFaninTX Frisco, TX
    Dec. 3, 2011 10:16 a.m.

    There are no ridiculous conclusions in my polls. My rankings were taken from CBSSPORTS Ranking, not Sagarin SOS.

    Or if you want to look at AP Rankings, BYU is #32 and U are nowhere to be found.

    Wins over Hawaii and Bowl Opponent will likely put BYU in Top 25.

    An unlikely win for U against Georgia Tech (if Sun Bowl) or TCU (if Vegas Bowl) will still not put U in the Top 25.

    Good luck next year.

  • chicagoborn WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    Dec. 3, 2011 10:13 a.m.

    I sure hope you are a Buffs fan. If not, there is nothing more pathetic than using another team besides your own to prove a point. Just like when BYU football fans use screen names with the TCU-Utah score and now the CU-Utah score. It seems like you have three big brothers now: TCU, Utah, and Colorado. You might as well throw in Notre Dame since you guys aspire to be like them too. Other teams beat Utah while your team couldn't. Can't wait until next year so Utah can beat the Y again. But it still won't keep BYU fans from running their mouths.

  • jarka-rus Layton, Utah
    Dec. 3, 2011 10:00 a.m.

    haha yep out comes the Sagarin comments. Instead of looking at reality lets look at computer numbers.

    Then how did the Utes who i assume had a higher "sagarin" than the Buffs. Lose at home?!?!

    Sagarin means nothing I'll go make up a bunch of algorithms and stats and be back with my "sagarin"

    Pac south division is pathetic. No way anyone can spin it. The only legit team is USC.

    Proof was the throttling the Ducks put on Ucla last night. USC would have made it a game. Anyone else would have been 30 point underdogs or more.

    WAC PAC, really no difference.

  • nothegame Saratoga Springs, UT
    Dec. 3, 2011 9:56 a.m.

    U can say what u want but the pac12 has athletes all over the field. QB is the number 1 position. Utah has to get better on offense period. If u think a freshmen is going to start or JW is the answer your wrong. Again this is on Whitt and poor recruiting at the QB position. START getting some people on the offensive side of the ball instead of 12 D-linemen

  • RobSing Minneapolis, MN
    Dec. 3, 2011 9:55 a.m.

    I love how much BYU fans like to comment on Utah stories. BYU fans are the most insecure and jealous fans in the nation.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Dec. 3, 2011 9:24 a.m.

    @Utah '95

    Thanks? But I do wonder what any of that had to do with my post?

    Riley's claim was that lesson #3 for utah this year is that in this new conference (pac12) that every team is capable of beating every other team supposedly because this new conference is different than others' It is a bcs conference.

    Well I showed perfectly that riley is false. Not that every team can't beat every other team, that is obvious, but that this is something new that only occurs in conferences like the pac12 because they are somehow so loaded down with superior athletes, etc.

    The fact is utah lost to every single team in the mtn west under whittingham's tenure. In otherwords every single team was capable of beating utah in the mtn west, they all did it. It seems utah should have learned that lesson a long time ago and it also seem like that isn't just the case in the pac12.

  • 17-14 Hurts Don't It? Springville, UT
    Dec. 3, 2011 8:31 a.m.

    Utah '95

    Does anyone really care about the 'resurch skool' stuff?

    You guys lost to the Buffs, a program that had lost every road game for 4 years.

    Thanks Buffs and here, have a Kleenex whiney Ute fans.

  • TheNun Granstville, UT
    Dec. 3, 2011 7:56 a.m.

    I find it amusing that an article on the Utes brings out the cougars. It seems their preoccupation with big brother can't be put to rest. Riley didn't mention the cougars once in this article, but the first page of posts came from the cougar nation. Nice!

    One thing that could be mentioned today, but was left out, hopefully not on purpose, is BYU can win the outright wac championship today if they hold on against Hawaii. They can run the table in the wac this year for the first time in school history. And, it looks to get better next year as most of the top teams in the wac are leaving, so the coogs have a realistic chance at winning 2 straight wac championships. Visions of the 70's dancing in our heads. Yea!

  • Utah'95 FPO, AE
    Dec. 3, 2011 7:43 a.m.

    CougFaninTX and Duckhunter,

    Comparing Utah's and BYU's opponents' 2011 recruiting classes, according to Scout, by rank of average athlete's rating:

    11 USC - 1 Texas
    12 CAL - 19 Ole Miss
    23 UW - 37 TCU
    42 UCLA - 40 Utah
    45 Pitt - 49 OSU
    49 OSU - 65 UCF
    50 ASU - 82 USU
    59 Ariz - 91 Hawaii
    60 BYU - 103 SJSU
    61 Colo - 111 Idaho
    70 WSU - 120 NMSU

    Utah played 3 top 40 teams. BYU played 4.
    Utah played 8 41-80 teams. BYU played 2.
    Utah played 0 teams ranked below 81. BYU played 5 (Montana State and Idaho State not included since Scout didn't rank them).

    Remember, these numbers come from Sagarin and Scout. They are not mine. They strongly suggest that Utah faced better athletes/teams this year.

    Like you, I don't believe Utah would have beaten Oregon or Stanford this year. But what's your point? If BYU had played Mississippi State and Florida State instead of Ole Miss and UCF, they would probably be 6-5 and not 8-3 right now....

    It's a shame you guys didn't attend a "research university." If you had been, then you probably wouldn't draw as many ridiculous conclusions in your posts!

  • Utah'95 FPO, AE
    Dec. 3, 2011 7:24 a.m.

    CougFaninTX and Duckhunter,

    Here are how Utah and BYU compare, according to Sagarin. SOS, toughest to weakest, top to bottom, Utah on left, BYU on right:

    09 USC -14 Texas
    30 Cal -21 TCU
    35 ASU -38 Utah
    40 UW -74 USU
    45 BYU -81 OSU
    52 UCLA-83 UCF
    59 PITT - 93 Hawaii
    63 Ariz - 95 SJSU
    79 WSU - 108 Ole Miss
    81 OSU - 130 NMSU
    91 MSU - 134 Idaho
    96 Colo - 208 ISU

    Utah played 4 top 40 teams, BYU played 3.
    Utah played 5 teams in the 41-80 range, BYU played 1.
    Utah played 3 teams ranked 81 or lower, BYU played 8.

    Utah's SOS: 40.
    BYU's SOS: 95.

    According to Scout, here is how the two team's opponents' 2011 recruiting classes rank. Utah on left, BYU on right:

    04 USC - 03 Texas
    15 CAL - 27 Ole Miss
    21 UW - 28 TCU
    43 OSU - 43 OSU
    47 Pitt - 54 Utah
    56 UCLA-57 UCF
    61 WSU - 88 Hawaii
    62 Colo - 106 SJSU
    63 BYU - 116 Idaho
    65 ASU - 117 USU
    96 Ariz - 120 NMSU

    Both teams faced 3 teams in the to 40.
    Utah faced 7 41-80 teams. BYU played 3.

    To be continued:

  • 17-14 Hurts Don't It? Springville, UT
    Dec. 3, 2011 6:40 a.m.

    Compare two teams head to head:

    Red team. 14
    Black and Gold. 17

    One team wasn't going to win the South Division, play in the PAC10.2 Championship, or play in the Rose Bowl.

    The other wasn't either.

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    Dec. 3, 2011 2:25 a.m.

    11:45 p.m apologist

    Compare the ratings

    BYU 74.58
    Utah 75.79

    To make predictions for upcoming games, simply compare the RATINGS of
    the teams in question and allow an ADDITIONAL 3 points for the home
    team. Thus, a HOME team with a rating of 74.58 would be
    favored by 2 points over a VISITING team having a rating of 75.79.

    Despite Utah's 44-point win in September, Sagarin would rate BYU a 2-point favorite over Utah if BYU and Utah were playing at LES this week.

    Basically, Sagarin considers Utah's win in September insignificant, when comparing the two teams today.

  • Elmer Fudd Sandy, Utah
    Dec. 2, 2011 11:53 p.m.

    @ nunya

    "hey remember when Team Weak Wouth Division was suppose to win it all in the new pac10.2?"

    Hey remember when "Team Notre Dame Wannabe" was supposed to win the National Championship this year? Well that all ended when "Team weak south division" thumped them 54-10 in Happy Valley. hahaha

  • 54-10 Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 2, 2011 11:45 p.m.

    Compare the two teams head to head:

    Red team. 54
    Blue team 10

    Blue team quit.

    Dec. 2, 2011 11:21 p.m.

    to Cougar Fan in TX

    Sagarin Ratings as of today - Arizona #63 (not 81), WSU #79 (not 93), OSU #81 (not 96), you were close on Colorado 396 (not 100).

    Teams you fail to mention include Idaho State # 208, Idaho #134, New Mexico State #130

    Utah strength of schedule - 40
    BYU strength of schedule - 95

    Big difference in the schedules this year when you look at accurate numbers.

  • nunya sacramento, ca
    Dec. 2, 2011 11:09 p.m.

    hey remember when TEAM WEAK SOUTH DIVISION was suppose to win it all in the new pac10.2? hahahaha

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    Dec. 2, 2011 10:45 p.m.

    Riley lesson #3 is false. You, and other pac12 apologists make this claim in an attempt to try and perpetuate the myth that simply because a school is in the pac12, or bcs, that they somehow have superior athletes and because of that any of them can beat any of the others.

    The reason that is a false assertion is because it is no different than any other conference. Do you want proof? Ok I'll give it to you.

    Utah lost to every single mtn west conference team since whittingham became coach including the crappy ones. Want the list?

    Colorado St? 2005 L17-21
    Wyoming? 2006 L15-31
    New Mexico? 2005 L27-31 2006 L31-34
    UNLV? 2007 L 0-27
    SDSU? 2005 L28-19

    It doesn't seem to me that being in the pac12 is one bit different for utah in that regard than being in the mtn west was. utah can, and did, lose to every crappy team in the mtn west. So much for the theory that being capable of being beaten by anyone in the conference is only true now in the pac12.

  • Veracity Morgan, UT
    Dec. 2, 2011 9:58 p.m.

    Utah has alot to improve...

    The Utes have been offensively atrocious, ranking 99th in passing offense (171 YPG), 81st in rushing offense (137 YPG), 110th in total offense (308 YPG) and 78th in scoring offense (24.5 PPG)...yes they have been educated this year.

  • CougFaninTX Frisco, TX
    Dec. 2, 2011 9:25 p.m.

    Referring to Arizona (#81), Washington State (#92), Oregon State (#96) and Colorado (#100) as the Big Boys is worrisome.

    Utah State (#74) is ranked higher than any of them. As it turns out, the teams BYU played from the WAC are ranked about the same as the bottom five teams Utah played from the PAC12.

    Just think how the Utes would have done if they would have played the Big Boys - Oregon and Stanford instead of Oregon State and Washington State. I'm pretty sure U would have been 5 - 7, instead of 7 - 5.

    Oregon is a 30 point favorite over the Southern Division Champs - UCLA. Oregon, Stanford and USC are the PAC3. Every other team was bottom of the PAC this year. Utah has a lot to improve to compete with the top teams in the PAC. But U were right there and able to compete with the 4 schools who fired their coaches this year.

  • Veracity Morgan, UT
    Dec. 2, 2011 8:44 p.m.

    Mr. Riley, hang onto this article, you will be able to recycle it for the next few years...just the title needs to change.

    For instances: 2nd. Pac-12 season was educational...again.

    or...3rd. Pac-12 season...lessons not learned.

    or...4th. Pac-12 season...Hello, is there anyone up there on the Hill?

    or...5th. Pac-12 season...Oh, well.