Mormons beliefs once again under attack

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  • Jeff Temple City, CA
    Oct. 15, 2011 6:25 p.m.

    It appears that the posts on this thread are meant as an example of what the article's title was referring to. If I didn't know that some of the posters were serious, I would assume that it was all just set up for illustration.

    @megen: Yeah, you're right. We believe that humans can be exalted and become like God. We also believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are separate and distinct individuals. We understand that, according to the tenets of your religion, we do not represent true, historic Christianity. However, we are not claiming to be equivalent to any sort of Catholicism (Orthodox or Roman) or Protestant/Reformation type of Christianity. We submit, however, that we fit the dictionary definition of Christian because we believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that salvation rests in Him. We generally accept anyone who believes in the divinity of Jesus as a Christian. If people privately believe otherwise, we probably would accept that, but when they say we shouldn't be eligible to run for president (as with Romney) or vote (as in Idaho) or even live (as in Missouri), we get a little defensive.

  • Joggle Clearfield, UT
    Oct. 13, 2011 3:39 p.m.

    What does it mean to respect someone's religion or religious beliefs? Many believers insist that their religion deserves to be respected, even by non-believers as well as different religions, but what exactly are they asking for? If they are simply asking to be let alone in their beliefs, that's not unreasonable. If they are asking that their right to believe be honored, then I agree. The problem is, these basic minimums are rarely, if ever, what people are asking for....instead, they are asking for much more. More and more, religions (including LDS) are objecting to what they call "intolerance" by people who are critical of the religion or religious beliefs. There is an increasingly popular attitude that religion deserves automatic respect and deference from everyone - even those who don't share that religion. The implication is that believers shouldn't have to be faced with criticism. This is wrong: religions aren't owed automatic deference and respect without criticism. We must remember to respect and tolerate religion and belief (including NON-belief) "differences", but accepting these differences doesn't mean tolerating or practicing discrimination, bigotry, violence, or hatred. Be careful of your own mirror before pointing out the cracks in anothers mirror!

  • Joggle Clearfield, UT
    Oct. 13, 2011 2:37 p.m.

    From the article: Mormon leaders have complained that critics take obscure or outdated teachings and describe them as core doctrine. The church cast aside the teaching of polygamy in 1890, and in 1978, abolished the barrier that kept those of African descent from full participation in the church.

    It seems contrary to indicate that "God" changes his mind!

    Religions are usually supposed to have been created by gods, at least on some level, and this greatly reduces the scope for acceptable errors. Gods, after all, aren't normally considered fallible in any way. If it is perfect, then any religion constructed around this god and by this god should also be perfect even if a few minor errors in practice creep in through human adherents. If some particular god exists, and this god is perfect, and a religion is created around it, then it shouldn't have significant contradictions or need changing to any large extent. The presence of such contradictions indicates that there is an error in one of those steps: the religion isn't created around that god, or isn't created by that god, or that god isn't perfect, or that god simply doesn't exist.

  • GaboonViper67 GLENDALE, AZ
    Oct. 13, 2011 1:42 p.m.

    Megan-, Read 1st John, Chapter 3, Verse 1 and 2: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. This passage teaches plainly that the righteous who are exalted will be changed in such a way that not only will they be able to bear the presence of God and live, but they will also be like him.

    What part of "we shall be like him" does not agree with us being like him? What father on earth would not want his child to inherit all that he has? Why would it be any different for our Father in Heaven? Isn't He more just and perfect than we are? Why should we think He would not want to have us inherit all we have?

  • megen Truth or Consequences, NM
    Oct. 13, 2011 1:29 p.m.

    KC Mormon- You say "Jesus elevated himself to the position of God". Haven't you considered that Jesus Is God? Not just a god, but God? He is not just one of a bunch of gods, as LDS believe exist (ie: council of gods per LDS teachings) He is God! LDS are henotheistic (a type of polytheism) and not monotheistic as Christian denominations are.

  • KC Mormon Edgerton, KS
    Oct. 12, 2011 9:14 p.m.

    Again put the word judge in place of god and see if it makes sense. Jesus has called himself the Son of God elevating himself to the position of God. The Judges are going to stone him for this. He asks them why are you going to stone me. They say because you have blasphemed by saying you are the Son of God. He then says the scriptures say you are judge if you are judges how can I blaspheme by saying I am the Son of God. The outcome of this is we are judges and you will be stoned to death. In the context of the verses judges simply does not save Jesus life but rather leads to his death. The only way it saves Jesus life is if gods truly means gods. If Jesus says the scriptures say you are gods so how can I blaspheme by simply saying I am the Son of God the outcome is Jesus lives another day. Your context simply does not fit. This is why the early Church Fathers taught theoses because they understood what Jesus said.

  • mominthetrenches South Jordan, Utah
    Oct. 12, 2011 9:05 p.m.

    LOL, Pagan! These many comments are rather humorous to me--we, as LDS folk, walk a fine line between laughing at ourselves for being human, not being so super sensitive, yet also standing up for our beliefs and agreeing to disagree with those who are Christian. I have so many friends of different faiths and we all bring out the good in each other without trying to change each other's entire belief system. Believe it or not, they don't act repulsed by me because they think I am a member of a cult, although I do have to remind them that I don't have horns growing out of my head or have multiple husbands and I will drink an occasional Dr. Pepper in front of them just for shock value! Mitt can be himself and I believe in the American people who are intelligent enough, in the masses, to vote for whoever they want. It'll be sad if the reason they DON'T like Romney is only due to his religion. Cult or not, the man is honest and a very efficient businessman--I don't care what religion someone is with credentials like that!

  • megen Truth or Consequences, NM
    Oct. 12, 2011 8:38 p.m.

    KC Mormon- you do not understand the meaning and context of those verses. Jesus was not calling them diety, rather He was accusing them of rejecting scripture. Ps. 82 shows that, in Hebrew, judges were called gods because their position of authority was to execute God's law- to go before the judge was to be judged by God's law, thereby to be judged by God. God's law called sinful men "gods" because they had been sent by God to execute his judgments in Israel (not because they were diety). Jesus was not blaspheming when he identified himself as one with the Father, as the Pharisees claimed. The Father had set him apart and sent him into the world with a far greater work than the judges of Israel received.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 12, 2011 1:32 p.m.

    "Any so called Christian religion can be called non-Scriptural because they attribute their beliefs to the Nicene Creed, written basically by the Catholic Church in 325 AD. This is where the Trinity was formed. Look it up."

    You literally just said other Christians are non-scriptural when criticizing other churches who call Mormons non-Christian.

  • KC Mormon Edgerton, KS
    Oct. 12, 2011 1:16 p.m.

    Than what about the words of Jesus? He clearly states that we can become gods in John Chapter 10:33-35. He was about to be stoned when he asked for what was he being stoned
    33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

    35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    I know the common "traditional Christian" answer that he was quoting Psalms and it means judges but judges simply does not work in Jesus context. If you put judges in place of gods Juses ends up being stones because it does not support his calling himself the Son of God. Jesus words only work if the context is infact gods. So by the Bible as well as the early Church teachings Theosis is a core teaching of Christianity that has been removed by "Historical Christianity".

  • megen Truth or Consequences, NM
    Oct. 12, 2011 11:15 a.m.

    KC- I, as a Christian, follow the teachings of the Bible, not the teachings of Saint Althanasios, Hippolytus, Origen, ect...

  • KC Mormon Edgerton, KS
    Oct. 12, 2011 10:09 a.m.

    You said "All Christian denominations have a problem with man becoming diety" yet it found in the writings of many of the early Fathers of "Traditional Christianity"
    "For the Son of God became man so that we might become God"-Saint Athanasios
    "...For thou hast become God;..."-Hippolytus
    "But if thou art desirous of also becoming a god...."-Hyppolytus
    "we should flee with all our power from being man and make hast to become gods"-Origen
    Just to name a few

  • megen Truth or Consequences, NM
    Oct. 12, 2011 7:16 a.m.

    evangelicals have a problem with Gospel Principles chapter 47 where it states that exalten man will become a god (it does not read become like God, it says become a god). Until last year, Gospel Principles chapter 47 went as far as to say that exalted man would have spirit children who would have the same relationship with him (the exalted man) that we have with our Heavenly Father. All Christian denominations have a problem with man becoming diety as Isaiah 43:10 says "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

  • Razzle2 Bluffdale, UT
    Oct. 12, 2011 12:47 a.m.

    Of all the oddities of Mormonism, it is humorous to me the reasons the few vocal Evangelicals are calling it a cult: God and Jesus and not the same being, and the non-official quote, "As God is man may become, as man is God once was."

    Curious intelligent people that probe for more information find the cult claims to be moronic.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:56 p.m.

    If you don't want people to disagree with your belief's...

    don't make them open, to the public.

    Oh. Wait. I didn't make a SHINING statement of support for the LDS faith.

    This comment will probably be denied.

  • alien236 LOGAN, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 7:21 p.m.

    @no fit in SG: Most of the other religions' torment, torture, pain, and "awfulness" didn't take place illegally in the United States of America which, last time I checked, was supposed to be a haven of religious freedom and tolerance. Why do you feel the need to trivialize our ancestors' very real suffering as a desire to be "numero uno"? Would you say exploited Chinese workers deserve no sympathy because their country isn't as bad as Afghanistan?

  • Raeann Peck Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 6:27 p.m.

    At the end of the day, only God discerns the hearts those who are called by Christ's name. The only opinion that counts is His. In the meantime, we wade through the paradox of intolerance. What else is new under the sun?

  • mightymite DRAPER, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 4:49 p.m.

    Get over it mormons. Believe what you may and take others opinions with a grain of salt. Mormons are too sensitive; it shows their own beliefs are on very shakey ground internaly to the church and eternaly when you see how they react within themselves and to others when controversy comes to the table.

  • Alpine Blue Alpine, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 2:22 p.m.

    @ Guy with a Brain

    Of course Romney scares the heck out of his Republican cronies. It is same with the Dems as well as we see every evening on NBC Nightly News. Love to watch Chuck Todd gleefully report any and every negative report on Romney. No doubt it will get very interesting IF Romney becomes the candidate against Obama the incumbent. Assuming that it will get downright ugly for those of us who share Romney's religious affiliation. We probably need to buckle up tight.

  • A Guy With A Brain Enid, OK
    Oct. 11, 2011 12:27 p.m.

    Why is Jeffress attacking only Romney?

    I mean, you do notice that Jeffress is only attacking Romney, don't you? Why not attack Huntsman, too?

    It's because Romney is the leader in the polls. And that's virutally EVERY poll. Jeffress and his crowd know that Romney has a very real chance of winning in 2012 and it scares the heck out of them.

  • KC Mormon Edgerton, KS
    Oct. 11, 2011 10:52 a.m.

    As members of the LDS Church we often put to much of our emphasis on the "after all we can do" and not enough on the we are saved by Jesus Christ. I like to look at it like a hurricane warning the Salvation through Jesus is the hurricane warning that we get for days and weeks ahead of time and the "after all we can do" is us actually listening and getting out of the way. As long as we simply do some basic things we are covered by the grace (or warning) of Jesus. This I have found is really not very different from most "Traditional Christians" other than wording. Yes some completely remove anything we can do in their words but in their descriptions it is still there. I think Joseph Smith put things best in "the Answer" when he was responding to W.W. Phelps request to rejoin the Church when describing the Celestial Kingdom
    These are they that came out of Apollo's and Paul;
    For Cephas and Jesus, in all kinds of hope;
    For Enoch and Moses, and Peter, and John;
    For Luther and Calvin, and even the Pope.

  • no fit in SG St.George, Utah
    Oct. 11, 2011 9:37 a.m.

    Hello there.......
    Remember your history classes? All of the major religions have gone through much more torment, torture, pain, and "awfulness" than the LDS ever experienced. As always, so sorry to repeatedly burst your bubble of being numero uno.

  • J-TX Allen, TX
    Oct. 11, 2011 9:31 a.m.

    "Huntsman, interviewed on CNN on Monday, described Jeffress as a "moron."

    Not Presidential, John, but I like it!

  • Alpine Blue Alpine, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 9:20 a.m.

    "My Jesus is better than your Jesus!"

    Pastor Robert Jeffress to the Latter-day Saints (2011)

  • DWmFrancis LEHI, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:44 a.m.

    It's clear from Rachel's editorializations that the LDS Church still has a way to go in simply and directly conveying the essential elements of their story. For example; the statement that God told Joseph Smith "to restore the true Christian church by revising parts of the Bible and adding the Book of Mormon as a sacred text." completely ignores the significance of the restoration of the priesthood, without which Joseph Smith becomes an simply a translator of ancient records as opposed to a prophet like Moses - personally called by God to perform a great work.

    Similarly, the statement that Latter Day Saints and evangelicals share core beliefs like "salvation through Christ alone and a focus on atonement and the Cross." is a "three quarter truth". A Latter Day Saint would agree that salvation is entirely thru Christ, but would add "after all we can do". References to the cross would be largely figurative, as the cross is symbolic of the atonement - no LDS meeting houses or temples are adorned by a cross.

    LDS doctrine is different from "Historic Christianity" for a reason - the Great Apostasy - else where is the need of a restoration?


  • Serenity Manti, UT
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:36 a.m.

    @JoeBlow: LDS do say that theirs is the only true religion which has been restored. But they do not differentiate between religions and call them names such as cult or non-Christian. Causing animosity by saying half-truths, is not doing God's work, but rather the work of the adversary, who is the father of contention.

    Any so called Christian religion can be called non-Scriptural because they attribute their beliefs to the Nicene Creed, written basically by the Catholic Church in 325 AD. This is where the Trinity was formed. Look it up. Original followers of Christ believed no such thing, and in the New Testament, it is consistently proven that Jesus and His Father are only one in words and actions; for instance, at Jesuss baptism, or the Transfiguration.

    Believe what you will, and let the LDS believe what they will. Contention and animosity never solved anything and it is not pleasing to God. After all, He is the only one to whom we need to account to when we leave these mortal realms.

  • klove Roy, Utah
    Oct. 11, 2011 8:30 a.m.

    I don't have a problem if someone doesn't agree with my faith. But what does trouble me is when someone demonizes our faith with half truths and outright lies to "protect their flocks". Our LDS history has shown this is for more than theoretical. We were threatened, beaten, driven from city to city and even killed because someone didn't agree with us.

    Though the LDS faith believes it is the "only true faith", it is preached in our faith to be tolerant of all others (not that all members necessarily do this perfectly.) Because all faiths have much good in them and much that we agree with. Most of our differences stem from specific doctrines. But the teachings of Christ we adhere to just as any other good Christian.

  • JoeBlow Miami Area, Fl
    Oct. 11, 2011 5:58 a.m.

    "Part of a pastor's job is to warn his people and others about false religions,"

    Isn't it really all about degrees? Can "false" mean the same as "less true".

    The LDS don't come right out and say it, but the implication is the same.

    "My religion is the only true one" therefore the implication of "yours is not true".

    How can you get bent out of shape by the comments? Is it because the LDS don't single out any one religion?