Members respond to misunderstandings about Mormonism

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  • tyndale1 Pullman, WA
    Aug. 12, 2011 8:58 a.m.

    Dear friends,

    How incredibly thankful I am for my faith in Jesus Christ, a faith which is strengthened daily by my study, by my prayer, and by my service. I am a Mormon by choice and could not be happier.

    To those who once hated the LDS Church because those of black lineage were not given the Priesthood (and who now hate the same Church because a prophet of God repeatedly petitioned God for their inclusion and was finally given that permission), to those who hated the LDS Church for once providing and caring for multiple wives (and who now hate the Church for a prophet of God repeatedly petitioning God for a reprieve from this practice until it was granted and the practice was relieved), to those who have no true interest in understanding but wish instead to dish blame, ridicule, scorn and misunderstanding, I simply say we love you. Don't let pride and vanity and your assumed learning rob you of true happiness. Taste the fruit.

    True answers are on the internet. I use it daily. But you have to know where to find them. Learn how to sift through internet chaff. Great blessings await your success.

  • Filo Doughboy Bakersfield, CA
    Aug. 11, 2011 2:35 p.m.

    Clear up misconceptions? Family ties, community service, devotion to personal beliefs: that describes every religion.

    What the public wants to know is:
    How would an LDS president lead, if his leaders opposed his position?
    With the factual history of the (3) major doctrinal reverses that the SLC church has made, how likely is it that a President Romney would reverse (i.e., flip-flop) on any given position?

    You will never satiate the public's concern or curiosity on how Mormonism works until you answer honestly that a living prophet means new revelations are possible on any day. Just give them the Articles of Faith. They can read.

    This article clarified nothing, obscured the one hang-up Americans have with a religion where a modern prophet calls the shots.
    That's the game changer for Mitt and he won't overcome it with his business acumen. If he'd follow in his' steps of undeniable allegiance to his church, he'd win over many more. Give us the candor of Orson and Parley P. any day over the suave, whitewashed flipping PR manager. Thou dost forget that we still have libraries and Journals of Discourses.

  • @Charles the greater outdoors, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 11:44 a.m.

    It matters not that the temple ceremony has changed, or that blacks have received the priesthood, or that polygamy isn't practiced as it was before the manifesto or that men can be sealed to more than one women in the temple.

    What statement do you think those statements make? Does it mean that Joseph Smith didn't see God and Christ in the grove, that he didn't receive the golden plates and through the power of God we have the Book of Mormon or that John the Baptist didn't come to Oliver and Joseph and restore the Aaronic Priesthood or that Peter, James and John returned the Melchizedek Priesthood or that all the keys were restored in the temples?

    Do you think that it means that millions haven't received a witness of the truth through the Holy Ghost, exactly as Christ said, of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith and the restored gospel?

    I don't know if any of you have any posts available to respond but your grave concerns about things LDS have nothing to do with the truth of the LDS church.

    The blind-faith whines are a non-starter for me. It shows ignorance on your parts!

  • @Charles the greater outdoors, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 11:37 a.m.

    I'm not sure what the purpose of Thinkman, Brahmabull, Mormoncowboy and the like is on these pages. If you don't believe in the teachings of the LDS church, great. That's your choice. That's exactly why we are on this earth is to have the ability to choose God or not. To learn about His truths and through those truths return to His presence.

    If you don't believe in God, the LDS church, Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, religion, Satan, heaven, hell, or anything else God-related that's up to you.

    What I don't understand is your attempt to tell others that they don't know what their religion teaches and how anyone who still believes in that religion doesn't use their brain.

    Or how because of doctrinal changes that somehow the LDS church isn't the Lord's church or prophets are false.

    What doctrinal changes did Christ bring when He came to the earth? How did the Jews feel about these doctrinal changes?

    As I understand the principles of the gospel there will be line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, there a little.

  • 22ozn44ozglass Southern Utah, UT
    Aug. 11, 2011 9:24 a.m.


    Your claims of uninformed uneducated persons in third world countries not having the ablity to make informed decisions would also have to apply to them not having the ablity to make informed decision regarding all of the anti-LDS people and anti-lds literature in the world as well. They do not know the 100% truth(the professed reason is not guarenteed truth)of why a given anti-LDS really wants to attack the LDS. They do not know the real honest truth of why anti-lds people want to dedicate so much time to attacking the church and its doctirines. They would not know of any hidden agendas by anti lds people and gay activists for attacking the church as well. They also do not have the resources to do the research to find out that many anti-lds claims and published literature are often half truths at best and in many cases outright slanderous lies.

    It works both ways.

  • spaghetti Boise, ID
    Aug. 11, 2011 9:12 a.m.

    When I said "I know all this..." -didn't mean to sound arrogant. God loves and will help ANY/ALL of us understand truth, IF we reach out to Him.

    Thinkman, please don't get hung up with nit picking. I understand that things should make sense, and the gospel does, but I think there will always be something that can bother us. Human history, even concerning Christ's church, is not going to fit into tidy little boxes that make perfect sense because we are fallible, complicated beings with freedom and that messes things up quit a bit.

    Can prophets make mistakes? Yes! They are human. But that doesn't mean they aren't called to help lead us in following Christ. Of course we are to use our mind/will to come to our own conclusions through studying things out AND through prayer- because we don't always come to the correct conclusions on our own, because we CAN'T possibly know ALL the facts. Fortunately, God does.

    In this life, I don't think any of us, even prophets, have all the answers to EVERYTHING. With some things we do need to use Faith, but God will give us enough, if we seek it.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Aug. 11, 2011 9:08 a.m.

    Clarkhippo - I know the LDS isn't affiliated with the other sects. The problem is, president Hinckley said polygamy is NOT DOCTRINAL. He could have clarified it if he wanted - he didn't. Furthermore, how do you think polygamy is different in those sects than with the early mormons? With the early members there were underage marriages, forceful polygamous relationships, everything that goes on with them now. Many women were forced into it, and some were underage, which isn't right.

    Snowman - Coffee, tobacco, and strong drinks were used in the tabernacle when it was first constructed. Brigham said that they should not be banned, but used with prudence. Hot chocolate and any soup taken hot was also categorized under "hot drinks" just as Joseph revealed it. Beer was used regularly, and many will justify this of course, and meat was advised to be used in winter and famine. So yes the word of wisdom has changed, and therefore, doctrine has changed. Justify, rationalize all you want about why, but it did. Why not just obey it just as god revealed it to Joseph Smith??? Odd. Joseph Smith drank beer (yes after the word of wisdom was given).

  • Central Texan Buda, TX
    Aug. 11, 2011 8:20 a.m.

    Anti-Mormon literature was distributed at the conference. Oh, and by the way, Huckabee was one of the keynote speakers at a portion of that conference in Salt Lake City in 1998.

    So tell me again, Brother Huckabee, how it is that you didnt really know much about the Mormon church but you had heard some rumor that maybe the Mormons thought Jesus and Satan were brothers and you thought you would ask Zev Chafets for clarification on Mormon doctrine?

    As I said, dishonest mischaracterization of the church, or deliberate fomenting of anti-Mormon sentiment. Keep your eyes and ears open, well be subjected to a bunch more of it.

  • Central Texan Buda, TX
    Aug. 11, 2011 8:19 a.m.

    Im from the south (Texas) where, like Utah, anti-Mormonism is a full-fledged industry. I have attended meetings sponsored by Protestant and Biblical Christian denominations (as they call themselves) where out-of-town guests were brought in to bash the LDS Church. One such instructor I spoke with did this for a living, working out of the Dallas / Fort Worth area and traveling throughout the south with a slide show and anti-Mormon publications. The local church (in my small town of less than 4000) that sponsored this particular guy was affiliated with the same national church organization as Mike Huckabee.

    So Huckabee cannot claim with any sincerity that he is so unfamiliar with the Mormon Church. His church, particularly the leadership, is STEEPED in anti-Mormonism here in the south.

    And if thats not enough for you, dont forget that back in 1998 the Southern Baptist Convention had decided to hold its annual conference in Salt Lake City, into the belly of the beast as it was described, where conference-goers were instructed on how to witness to Mormons.

    Continued below...

  • Central Texan Buda, TX
    Aug. 11, 2011 8:18 a.m.

    Someone mentioned Mike Huckabee earlier. As with many of the negative posters on this and other sites, his actions in the 2008 Republican presidential primary are a prime example of what the LDS Church, and otherwise sincere investigators of the Church face in today's world. Dishonest mischaracterization of the church, or deliberate fomenting of anti-Mormon sentiment.

    Recall during the 2008 primary campaign the interview Huckabee had with Zev Chafets of the New York Times Magazine. Huckabee was asked specifically about Romney's religion. Huckabee feigned general ignorance, but then volunteered, "Don't Mormons believe that Jesus and the devil are brothers?" The Jesus and Satan/Brothers one-liner is well known and has LONG been a common dig aimed at raising eyebrows among non-LDS Christians. When questioned later about the comment, Huckabee tried to pretend he was just asking an honest question of the interviewer, as if the Baptist minister and former head of the Arkansas Baptist Convention would, in any sincerity, be asking a Times reporter for tips and insights on Mormon belief.

    Continued below...

  • spaghetti Boise, ID
    Aug. 11, 2011 8:07 a.m.

    to Thinkman:

    How do you know that it wasn't in God's wisdom to wait for African Americans to receive the Priesthood? That it has absolutely NOTHING to do with racism and everything to do with wisdom?

    Maybe we members of the church wouldn't have been ready to accept it, or citizens of our nation might have heaped enough persecution on the early Saints to destroy the church etc... WHO KNOWS. One can guess all day long, but my point is, God knows what He is doing.

    No matter who you are,(even prophets), with some things in life, we DO have to go on Faith. But God does give us enough to help us, IF we seek him in humility. That means using BOTH our mind (reasoning out things, seeking historical facts and information) AND our heart (praying, asking for God's Spirit to enlighten us, trusting that He loves us).

    The scriptures say that God is no respecter of persons, that the worth of souls is great, that God is Love, and I know all this because I have felt this in such a deep personal way.

  • Thinkman Provo, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 11:04 p.m.


    A man who has married a woman in the temple and if that woman dies the man can marry and be sealed to another woman and therefore, polygamy is alive and well in the LDS church if not in this life then in the next.

    Coffee was never part of the Word of Wisdom and the Utah Mormons, Brigham, John Taylor and my ancestors were coffee drinkers. The LDS church came out in the late 1800s saying that coffee was not to be bought anymore because of economic conditions and coffee was deemed a luxury.

    Temple ordinances have changed in my lifetime. I went in 1987. A major change was made to the Endowment ordinances in 1990. Another major change was made to the washings and annointings in 2005. I won't go into details as I don't want to offend you or anyone of the LDS church. There were also other major changes from the original ordinances that Joseph Smith introduced prior to the 1990 changes. It isn't hard to find this stuff, or at least it wasn't in the early 199s when I saw documents in the BYU library showing those changes.

    1978 wasn't very long ago. Sad

  • snowman Provo, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 10:25 p.m.

    Thinkman: There is no polygamy in the temple. Coffee Was and is still part of the Word of Wisdom ( section 89 D&C). Temple ordinances have not chamged. None of the scriptures have changed. And Every worthy man has been able to have the Priesthood since 1978.

  • ClarkHippo Tooele, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 8:49 p.m.

    @Brahmabull 2:49

    President Hinckley was talking about modern-day polygamy. The kind practiced by Warren Jeffs, Tom Green and others. These groups are not affiliated in any way with the LDS Church and never have been. And the form of polygamy they practice is much, much different than anything practiced by the early LDS Church.

    I do not want to put words in your mouth Brahmabull, but I do know there are some critics of the LDS Church who believe the practice of modern-day polygamy is being quietly sanctioned or endorsed by the LDS Church. This is utter nonsense and no matter how much people like President Hinckley try to explain this, many people refuse to believe it. If you believe this, please provide your source.

  • Jiggle Clearfield, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 8:24 p.m.


    Being faithless is not at all lonely! You can't assume that all people are the same and have a need for faith to be happy or fulfilled. My understanding is that the stories in the Bible themselves cannot serve as examples of eyewitness accounts since they came as products of the minds of the unknown authors, and not from the characters themselves. The consensus of many biblical historians put the dating of the earliest Gospel, that of Mark, at sometime after 70 C.E., and the last Gospel, John after 90 C.E. This would make it some 40 years after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus that we have any Gospel writings that mention him!

    I'm not saying that many of the standards in the Bible aren't relevent or true, but rather that religious belief is not needed for them to be common sense and useful in society. Good or bad simply comes from inside each of us. Lack of faith doesn't make you a bad person nor does having faith always make you a good person. My foundation comes from within myself. You might say it is based on new knowledge and is remodeled as that knowledge changes!

  • dlw7 LOGAN, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 6:54 p.m.

    Zack;I realized at the time I phrased the statement that way there would be someone who would bring up what is done in the temple. I cannot speak for every situation, but in my situation my relatives who have more than on wife sealed to them were legally and lawfully married to said spouse--one woman at a time. I believe there is a difference in worldly law and celestial laws and the plural marriage done in the temple refers to the latter.

  • Zack Tacorin Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 6:28 p.m.

    dlw7 wrote:
    "[Polygamy] is not the doctrine of the Church at this time. If you practice it, you are excommunicated from the Church. End of Story!!"

    I respectfully disagree, though it may appear my disagreement is on a technicality. Plural marriage is still practiced, and it is still the doctrine of the Church. Faithful Mormon widowers are often sealed to a new wife without canceling the sealing to their deceased wife. The 1890 manifesto banning the plural marriage to multiple living women at one time did nothing to retract the doctrine of plural marriage. The Church has never made such a retraction.

  • standfan HELENA, MT
    Aug. 10, 2011 5:18 p.m.

    Joggle @ It must be a lonley place to be faithless. Furthermore the lack thereof does not change Truth. You see truth is truth. It never changes. Because you or I may choose to belief or not belief really matters not to the truth. Many of the authors to the Bible were eyewitness to what He said and did. There testimony is not heresay. If you or I tell the story or choose to believe, then it's heresay we believe in. Then the question arises what is truth? You choose not to believe, or have faith. I choose to believe and have faith that it's true. So I quess my question is by which scale do you judge others or life by? Or to which scale or standard do you live by and hold others too? The Golden rule? That's from the Bible you don't believe in? I'm not trying to knock you down here, I am just really really curious. Because from the outside looking in it sounds like a building without any foundation. And you probably think the same of me. So what is your scale or standard?

  • dlw7 LOGAN, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 4:01 p.m.

    It never ceases to amaze me how the comments get so far afield from the topic of the article. However, Mormons used to practice polygamy. For a variety of reasons it was ordered by the President of the Church after direct revelation to cease this practice. So we don't anymore. It is not the doctrine of the Church at this time. If you practice it, you are excommunicated from the Church. End of Story!! When you believe in a religion you accept its teachings--all of them--and you can't pick and choose which ones you will follow. Sometime people become disenchanted and want to redo Mormonism to fit their thinking and we have the issues that have been brought up on the previous comments. The Church is the Church and a higher Authority than me and you makes the changes.

  • Joggle Clearfield, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 3:00 p.m.


    With all due respect to YOUR beliefs....I do not believe the same. It is impossible to use scripture toward me to argue an opinion. People here seem to make many false assumptions that most people here are religious. I've explored religions and belief thoroughly and have found religion to be lacking in credibility/probability. I neither believe the Bible to be the word or inspired word of God or that Jesus was a divine. In fact, my research says no one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. Hearsay does not work as evidence because we have no way of knowing whether the person lied, or simply based his or her information on wrongful belief or bias. The Gospels did not come into the Bible as original and authoritative from the authors themselves. Although the historical Jesus could've been a real person which myth made divine....I believe the Bible was written by man to explain the world during a time of ignorance and to control society. I would fight my own mind to believe_through_faith.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Aug. 10, 2011 2:49 p.m.

    Clark hippo/humble Abeille - you have never heard president Hinckley say polygamy is not doctrinal? You certainly haven't looked too hard into it then. Here is the quote. Interview with Larry King. Aired September 8, 1998 "I condemn it, yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal." There it is. NOT DOCTRINAL. Yet, the early leaders of the church said it was doctrinal.

    "The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy. Others attain unto a glory and may even be permitted to come into the presence of the Father and the Son; but they cannot reign as kings in glory, because they had blessings offered unto them, and they refused to accept them."
    - The Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol 11, p. 269

    So yes it was and still should be a DOCTRINE whether it is practiced or not. That sounds like doctrine changing to me. Let me guess - you will dismiss the statements above as OPINION because they go against what your arguement is. If any quote suppored what you said you would immediately quote it as if it were doctrine instead. Standard LDS procedure.

  • nick humphrey kent, WA
    Aug. 10, 2011 2:37 p.m.

    "takes on the notion that Mormons are all from Utah, and all Caucasian....he writes that "the church's demographics are changing rapidly, especially throughout the western hemisphere.""

    meaning more and more caucasians are leaving? =)

  • Joggle Clearfield, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 2:36 p.m.

    @Fred Vadar

    That's my opinion! Many people (not all) have limited information resources, are uninformed about many things....are often illiterate which often translates into uneducated, but it doesn't translate into them being stupid. I never said anything about race or not being smart enough. If you'd like to present a reasonable argument, please feel free to do so....instead of insinuating things I never said or meant. In other words....please refrain from trying to attribute statements to me that I never said. Can you prove my opinion to be untrue? It's perfectly logical to say that people in poor, uneducated, illiterate third world countries don't have the information resources to make a truly informed decision concerning a religion. The same thing could be said about any atheist prothylizer doing the same well as Catholic missionairies (etc). I'm sorry, but I think it's more important to help these third world people out of poverty through education and aid than to convert them into a religion that seems to give them minimum facts. Sure the LDS Church helps in other ways, but they could do so much more in that direction with their wealth. Do you disagree?

  • standfan HELENA, MT
    Aug. 10, 2011 2:33 p.m.

    Joggle my friend. First off you say the LDS church takes advantage of third world countries. Then you say you have a problem with organized Religion. So in reality you disagree with Christ. In Ephesians 4:11-14 it was Christ himself that organized His Church. If He was perfect, then His Church He organized must also be or He would cease to be pefect. We as people are not perfect, but His organazation is. And you must not have ever read Matthew 28:19-20. Again the Savior said "Go ye therefore and teach ALL nations,baptising them etc. " So we believe in and follow Christ and we are condemed for doing it. Got it. News flash the whole world isn't rich. But it still doesn't change the Lords decree to go teach and baptize them. Apperently He loves them all. And so do we. And we surely must have taken advantage of them when we sent 100's of tons of food and clothing to those countries that were devistated with natural desaters, and asked nothing in return. So excuse us if we don't agree with you. We care more about what Christ did, and told us to do.

  • Fred Vader Oklahoma City, OK
    Aug. 10, 2011 1:32 p.m.

    @LDS Revelations:

    I find it interesting that you apparently didn't read the posts I was referring to, or don't you find the following Eurocentric and racist?

    LValfre: "Today, the biggest conversions are overseas in area's with limited resources and education" [i.e. not smart enough to know better]; "So of course the church is areas where the people are desperate and poor" [i.e. poor people aren't smart enough to know better]; "Its dwindling amongst whites and the educated [i.e. non-whites aren't smart enough to know better]

    Joggle: "The LDS Church takes advantage of poorer third world countries where information, education, and literacy are limited" [i.e. non-white, illiterate and not smart enough to know better]

    Yeah, that was total spin by me. Not.

  • twinb Willoughby, OH
    Aug. 10, 2011 1:22 p.m.

    Yeah, like everyone knows all that is found on the internet is truth! Wake up! Just because more is available--so accessible--does NOT guarantee it's true! This is especially true when someone has an anti agenda as we are seeing in this thread. Perhaps we're gaining in 3rd world countries because they are teachable. Not to say that all who are wealthy and educated aren't, but history has proven over and over what can happen--when we don't focus on the spiritual things. Makes me think of the great and spacious building...

  • Idaho Coug Meridian, Idaho
    Aug. 10, 2011 1:21 p.m.

    ClarkHippo said - "If you read 1st Nephi in the Book of Mormon when Lehi explains his dream of the Tree of Life, you next read how Nephi prayed to learn for himself the meaning of the dream. Each of us can do this for ourselves if there is a doctrine or teaching we don't understand or need help with in our own lives."

    I agree with you ClarkHippo. It is interesting that for me I really feel (for a while now) the promptings I have received as I have prayed and pondered upon the Church has been - "Let go of all this stuff. Forget what you do or don't BELIEVE about Mormonism and focus on the Savior and on serving and loving others."

    It is interesting that people who ask God about the Mormon Church do not always receive the same answer. But I think each will be blessed if they follow the promptings they do receive.

    My promptings have NOT been the stereotypical pray, pay and obey and it will all work out. It has been focus on your family and those you can serve and love. I guess it is time I do that!

  • ClarkHippo Tooele, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 12:55 p.m.

    @Utter Nonsense 10:55

    Your point is a valid one, although I think most of the misunderstanding of LDS doctrine within church membership are ones which come from oral histories that have gone down the generational pipelines rather than the standard set doctrines we read in the standard works.

    A good example of this is the "White Horse Prophesy" which I have heard in so many different versions I've lost count. This is when personal revelation comes into play.

    If you read 1st Nephi in the Book of Mormon when Lehi explains his dream of the Tree of Life, you next read how Nephi prayed to learn for himself the meaning of the dream. Each of us can do this for ourselves if there is a doctrine or teaching we don't understand or need help with in our own lives.

    James 1:5 isn't just simply about praying to know that the gospel is true, it also means we can ask God about anything we are struggling with.

  • ClarkHippo Tooele, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 12:41 p.m.

    @Brahmabull 10:35

    You said - "All the mormons who claims the "anti's" are spreading lies and twisting I find that ironic because the apologists do that too."

    Then you said - "The hang up on the polygamy thing, for me, is this: modern mormons are so wish washy with it - it is almost like they don't even believe in the principle anymore. They claim it was never a doctrine."

    Who said Polygamy was never a doctrine? I've never heard President Hinckley or anyone else make this claim. The church has suspended the practice, but that doesn't mean it wasn't doctrine.

    How can you accuse LDS apologists of twisting their arguments when you're doing the exact same thing?

    @Thinkman 11:38

    You said - ' "As God is man once was..." couplet that Hinckley said "we no longer teach that." '

    Your other points are valid ones which can be discussed, but this one is a total fabrication. What President Hinckley did say was, "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it."

    Major, major difference. Hinckley was explaining this is a doctrine which we don't know the full details of yet.

  • Thinkman Provo, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 12:07 p.m.

    I remember on my mission having to defend the LDS church and why it practiced polygamy openly and still in temple marriages.

    Also, I had to defend why the LDS church took until the late 1970s to give non-whites the priesthood. I always questioned that particular doctrine myself and was told by bishops, stake pres and my mission pres that I need to just accept that I don't understand God's ways. Quite frankly, it was a racist policy to be sure and that is why the LDS church is considered to be a white-only or white-mostly religion. Sad. I don't see the LDS church as racist. Surely, most members and its leadership are not and there possibly are some if only very few, just like many religions have some people who may be racist.

  • Joggle Clearfield, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 12:03 p.m.

    To all those who think I have an axe to grind concerning the LDS Church:

    Rather than making false personal accusations toward an opposing or disagreeing opinion please present your argument without them. I don't have an axe to grind with the LDS Church nor do I have an anti-LDS agenda. I simply disagree with organized religion as a WHOLE. I did NOT say ALL LDS are illiterate, disadvantaged people, but the fact is there are many in third world countries who are. When you can prove that missionairies only go to wealthy, educated and literate households than I will be happy to present my supportive facts as well. The LDS Church has done nothing to me personally! There are GOOD aspects to the Church, but I personally recognize the less than stellar aspects as well whether some want to recognize them or not.

    While I don't expect LDS to agree with me in a forum such as this....I do think it is unnecessary to make PERSONAL attacks. Dispute the argument instead of attacking the messenger. I'm not attacking people personally. I'm only disagreeing with aspects of the LDS religion and I'm presenting my opinion.

    Thank you!

  • Northern Lights Louisville, KY
    Aug. 10, 2011 11:59 a.m.

    Utter Nonsense:

    Once again, you present an argument from an over-generalization. You claim that millions of members worldwide are not smart enough to understand their own religion. I assume that if they were smart and enlightened and reasonable like you and 3/4 of your family that the membership in general would also leave the Church? That argument is based solely on selective observation. You offer nothing substantive to tie these two together. No credibility!

    You claim to have left the Church. Yet, here you are - unable to leave the Church alone. I feel it's going to be hard for you to ever find peace with your decision under such circumstances - but more power to you. You exercised your freedom of choice to sort of leave, why do you criticize that same right for others to worship God to the dictates of their own conscience?

  • The Atheist Provo, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 11:52 a.m.

    Why does it seem there is a pervasive attitude among the LDS of "Look at us! Look at us! Aren't we wonderful!"


    It is almost religious exhibitionism, and it is really unattractive.

  • Abeille West Haven, Utah
    Aug. 10, 2011 11:50 a.m.

    Brahmabull -

    If you believe the Holy Bible, you MUST agree with the fact that God, in the very least, permitted polygamy. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc. ALL had more than one wife. Does that mean polygamy is 'Doctrine'? Not necessarily.

    If you believe the Book of Mormon is scripture, you MUST agree with the fact that, at times, God prohibits polygamy (Jacob 2:27). Does that mean that monogamy is 'Doctrine'? Nope.

    Doctrine never changes. Even though some early Church members expressed opinions on polygamy being Doctrinal, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints NEVER accepted polygamy as 'Doctrine.' Many early writings point that out - including the Journals of my 3G-Grandfather (and he was a polygamist).

    So, what do I believe about polygamy? I believe that, at times, God requires it of certain individuals. I also believe that, at times, it is sinful to engage in (which is the case today). Requirements of the moment should not be confused with Doctrine - one changes with the situation, the other does not.

    Just thoughts of someone who 'is clearly not in a sound mind.' (How I love my admirers)

  • LValfre CHICAGO, IL
    Aug. 10, 2011 11:43 a.m.

    "Most of the misunderstandings are held by the Mormon church members themselves. They don't really have an idea what their real church history or changing doctrines are about. "

    And even more sadly, they're not willing to read or look into it. The church says to avoid any non 'LDS approved' literature.

    "When the brethren have spoken, the thinking is done."

  • LDS Revelations Sandy, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 11:39 a.m.

    @ Fred Vader

    I find it interesting that the only person calling LDS converts in the 3rd world 'dumb' is you. The point made by others was many of these people don't have access to information and are only getting the Church's view of Mormonism. Clearly the advent of the Internet has a profoundly changed the how the LDS Church is viewed in the 1st world and I think likely has had a negatively impacted conversion there. The comments were merely suggesting that the lack of this information source is part of why conversion rates in the less developed world are still high.

    I think you're spin on this point is a little misleading. It certainly is easier though to paint a comment as bigoted than actually addressing it's contents

  • Thinkman Provo, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 11:38 a.m.

    About me: Served an LDS mission, married in the temple, taught gospel doctrine for 5 years, served in multiple leadership positions, 5th generation Mormon.

    The LDS church has done much good. However, it also has led to much division of families as hard core LDS members attack and disown their own family members who stray from the church especially for doctrinal issues. That has happened to me and over 20 of my close friends over the past few years. Those friends and myself came to the realization that the LDS church conveniently forgets or hides its past. There are many reasons why the LDS church is misunderstood and it has mostly itself to blame with its ever-changing doctrines:

    -polygamy illegal, but not in temple marriages
    -"As God is man once was..." couplet that Hinckley said "we no longer teach that"
    -coffee being a staple of the early Utah Mormons to now being an evil drink
    -changing temple ordinances that have happened multiple times in my own lifetime
    -Book of Mormon text changes
    -Book of Abraham being taken from funeral texts.
    -Adam is God Doctrine
    -Only whites get priesthood

    I could go on but I have only 200 words.

  • Tekakaromatagi Dammam, Saudi Arabia
    Aug. 10, 2011 11:12 a.m.

    Lots of cultures have sacred rituals. Sacred for me means that someone has to make a special effort to get the knowledge. That doesn't apply just to Mormom temple rituals.

  • standfan HELENA, MT
    Aug. 10, 2011 11:07 a.m.

    Lvavre and Joggle I don't get it??? I see no place in the scriptures that say's or suggests one is omitted from keeping God's commandment for paying tithing if he is poor. Please provide the refereance if you have it. I do recall the Saviors story of the Widow's mite. It's not about Money. It's about faith in following His word. Like father Abraham and Jacob. It was His way of testing Abraham. Who do you think you are to even suggest someone disobey God's commandments? In Malachi the Lord promises to open the windows of heaven to those that obey. It say's nothing of omitting the command if you happen to be poor. And you wonder why we have so many different Religions in the world? It reminds me of the pharmacist who had a percspition that called for enough medicine to cover the face of a dime. He didn't have a dime so he used two nickles. Most of the problems begin when people try to make un-authorized substitutions to the Lords formula. I'm quite sure you have no authority to change God's commandments. In fact I'm positive. And I'm sure the poor wanted the promised blessings.

  • Brahmabull sandy, ut
    Aug. 10, 2011 10:35 a.m.

    Anybody who comes on here and boasts about their degrees and their income is clearly not in a sound mind. All the mormons who claims the "anti's" are spreading lies and twisting I find that ironic because the apologists do that too. Every time the church edits a part of their own history, and take it out of books hoping nobody will notice they are doing the exact same thing. The hang up on the polygamy thing, for me, is this: modern mormons are so wish washy with it - it is almost like they don't even believe in the principle anymore. They claim it was never a doctrine. Well any who think that haven't done their studies - at all. It is not hard to find quotes of early bretheren saying it was doctrine. So we come to a quote by President Hinckley (who I loved as a servant of god) and he says that polygamy is "not doctrinal." Hmmmmmmmm..... either it is doctrinal or it isn't. He could have just said we believe in the doctrine but don't practice it right now. But he made it clear we don't believe in it anymore. That is a problem.

  • bballjunkie Cedar Hills, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 10:16 a.m.

    Dnews monitor board..

    Just a quick note, Enough with the double standards, there was nothing wrong with my last comments. If your going to let people slam and stir up issue regarding the church then what I said about Joggle and The other anti small minded people does not need to be denied. What a joke.

  • Zack Tacorin Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 9:50 a.m.

    FDRfan wrote,
    "Night Trader
    Thanks for speaking up. We need a zillion more, at least, like you."

    Amen to that!

  • Back to the Drawing board... Midvale, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 9:32 a.m.

    Indeed this is a sign of the times when good things are made to be evil, and evil made out to be good (see Isaiah 5:20) The Bible is replete with verses similar to the aforementioned one. Having served a mission in St. Louis, MO, considered to be a "bible-belt" mission, this anti-Mormon spew is the same yesterday, today and forever. Can't the haters come up with any new materiel?
    -Whites Only-defeated
    -Women being inferior-defeated

    I guess there must really have to be opposition in all things?

  • Canyontreker TAYLORSVILLE, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 9:27 a.m.


    I agree, my understanding is that the saving ordinances of the temple are done by women for women under the direction of the Priesthood. I don't know why women don't have to be ordainded to do temple work and men do. Seems that women are priveledged not second class.

    Women have been giving discourses and prayers in LDS congregations a century longer than other established religions.

    Women are "Set Apart" by laying on of hands to perform callings under the direction of the Priesthood with authority.

    The Priesthood in the LDS church is not male and rests equally on both female and male members. Regardless, on this earth, only males "hold" the priesthood.

  • snowman Provo, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 9:12 a.m.

    no fit in SG: Yes the polygamy thing will be there forever because it is part of the churchs history.

  • FDRfan Sugar City, ID
    Aug. 10, 2011 8:56 a.m.

    Night Trader
    Thanks for speaking up. We need a zillion more, at least, like you.

  • Brad James Manti, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 8:48 a.m.

    I am LDS and a 29-year-old bachelor who finds polygamy reprehensible. Let me find one wife first. It bears mentioning not all Church members lived polygamy even when it was in place. Of course, playing devil's advocate is so easy. Most people that play that role don't believe in a religion strong enough themselves to fight for it so sorry about that. At least on my mission in Tucson and El Paso, evangelicals told me what they want to believe. In Utah, generally people only want to bash.

  • Zack Tacorin Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 8:32 a.m.

    Incite Full wrote:
    If [those who point the finger of scorn at the LDS Church] had a better alternative they'd share it without the need to tear down others

    I think there is some truth to this. In that spirit, I offer another way. The Book of Mormon promise (Moroni 10:3-5) is not a reliable way to ascertain truth. Speaking of the principle in general, Steven Hassan wrote, A common technique among religious cults is to instruct people to ask God what He wants them to do. Members are exhorted to study and pray in order to know Gods will for them (Combatting Cult Mind Control, p. 70). I offer reason as an alternative.

    As Galileo said, I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. I suggest sense, reason, and intellect are gifts of God that we are to use instead of relying on a method that provides contradictory results among the children of men.

  • Razzle2 Bluffdale, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 8:32 a.m.

    It is unsettling to have people comment about what I believe without me in the conversation. As soon as someone in or out of the LDS faith says, "Mormons believe..." they better be quoting the Articles of Faith. Everything else is just their own personal interpretation.

    Aaron Sherinan's article is uplifting to me because he only tells what he believes as a Mormon and had faithful perspective. Michael Otterson didn't get into theology and had interseting journalistic facts about the demographics of Mormonism.

    On the other hand, Johanna Brooks perceptions and interpretations of what Mormons believe made me cringe. I have an arguement for nearly every one of her points as to waht I believe personally as a Mormon. She should only be speaking for herself with terms, "I believe..." "My understanding in what I have read..." etc.

    In fact we should all be so careful.

  • Zack Tacorin Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 8:00 a.m.

    ClarkHippo wrote:
    'can't help but laugh whenever someone makes a comment like, "The LDS Church is losing members because of the Internet."

    People who say things like this must think everything on the Internet is 100% truthful.'

    I don't think anybody is saying the info on the Internet is 100% accurate. To be sure, there is a lot of contradictory info out there. However, information (both accurate and inaccurate) about the LDS Church is much more accessible now than it was in the 1980s largely because of the Internet. For example, I stumbled upon the problems the Church faces regarding its claims about the Book of Abraham on the Internet quite by accident. I think it's much more unlikely that I would have discovered this without the Internet.

  • NightTrader Colonia, Yap, FSM
    Aug. 10, 2011 7:47 a.m.

    @LValfre and Joggle. I'd like to know where you get your information!

    I am currently serving a humanitarian service mission in the jungles of a tiny island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. I've been here almost two years. This mission has cost me nearly $100,000. I haven't converted anyone to Mormonism. I am here to serve.

    This is a society who's citizens feel only a sense of hopelessness. Education, nutrition, labor laws, and human rights are nearly non-existent. Most men live to drink. We spend a good portion of our time trying to save young wives who are consistently beaten by drunk husbands.

    The church spends $millions here, annually. I get to help the local branch president prepare the bank deposits from tithing and donations. Lets put it this way. The cost of gas to drive to the bank is a greater sum than the deposit. Believe me, the church is not doing this to get rich, or rob the poor. My wife and I are on the front lines.. and have been twice in our lives... what have you done lately?

  • CougarBlue Heber City, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 7:47 a.m.

    Just red Brooks article. Her statement in myth 4 shows she still has a long way to go to understand the temple ceremony and what she states as "unequal statements".

  • OneAmerican Idaho Falls, ID
    Aug. 10, 2011 7:31 a.m.

    No need to worry about Harry Reid being influenced by Salt Lake. When the First Presidency sent out a rare call to action for members to call their senator in favor of the Defense of Marriage Bill, Harry Reid not only didn't stand in favor of it, he stood on the Senate floor and rebuked it.

  • Incite Full Layton, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 6:02 a.m.

    Fools mock, but they shall mourn. We all walk within the light we have. It is only natural that those who point the finger of scorn at the LDS church do so to justify their own lack of direction and purpose. If they had a better alternative they'd share it without the need to tear down others who are making a better life. Keep the faith, my fellow saints. It's a rough ride, but the destination is worth all the bumps and bruises, and even the occasional mistaken byroad.

    The world's fixated on cynicism, criticism, selfish selfindulgence, addictive entertainment at all costs, and intellectual nihilism. All are killers to the human soul, creating knee-jerk monsters out of beings that once had both the capacity to think and feel, but now are left with neither.

  • DUPDaze Bakersfield, CA
    Aug. 10, 2011 12:41 a.m.

    What none of these comments address here, is why Mormons have to explain, redefine and defend their religion 181 years after its founding. When I was growing up in southern Cal in the 1960's, we knew exactly what and why we believed our 'wacky' doctrines. We proudly admitted our new revelations aka flip-flops and didn't equivocate on quoting our prophets' dislike for other religions, their false authority or sole reliability on the Bible. That was the Mormonism of Mitt, too, before his make-over.

    We didn't whitewash our past polygamy or Joseph and Brigham's wives. It was God's test and command, end of subject. We didn't like the black priesthood prohibition, but we knew we weren't prejudiced. We gave away Books of Mormon at doorsteps and put their diorammas at Visitor's Center's entrances, not in their basements. We told investigators that we didn't trust the Bible as accurate, rather than offering them in info-mercials as is the new twist for the past ten+ years. We weren't taught a lot about the Mountain Meadows massacre, so we just ignored it. But we didn't care about any masonic oaths and it was too late once we knew anyway..

  • ClarkHippo Tooele, UT
    Aug. 10, 2011 12:27 a.m.

    I can't help but laugh whenever someone makes a comment like, "The LDS Church is losing members because of the Internet."

    People who say things like this must think everything on the Internet is 100% truthful.

    If that were the case, that must mean the Holocaust never happened, the CIA killed John F. Kennedy (or maybe it was the Mafia, the Cuban government or Lyndon Johnson, depending on which site you read) 9/11 was orchestrated by the Israeli government and President Obama is really a member of the Taliban.

    Those things must all be true because I read them on the Internet.

  • DUPDaze Bakersfield, CA
    Aug. 10, 2011 12:10 a.m.

    I am 7th generation Mormon, Wiley Handcart Co., DUP (Daughters of the Utah Pioneers), born & raised 35 yrs in church, temple-married, BYU-educated, held every presidency position, taught in all auxillaries, blah-blah. I am proud of my Mormon heritage, my 2 gr.granddads who did their prison-time rather than ababdon their plural families. I love my large LDS family, my prestigeous relatives and professors. My family are teachers, professors, doctors & lawyers, one Wyoming politician, 85% returned-missionaries, farmers, parents, and hard-working people.

    Does that give us a corner on the market of truth? Cause we have our divorces, inactives, and ex-Mormons, too. I can give you the same profile for Catholic and Muslim friends, too. What does Truth have to do with strong, civil-minded, religious groups? The Taliban have an ethical code of life, a prophet, an angel-inspired revelation and polygamy in both lives. But their prophets have never changed their revelations and flipped on their core beliefs. They still don't allow apostacy, just as the SLC leaders do not.

    After God answered my prayer 25 years ago, my loving family abandoned me for becoming Born-again. Truth is better by far.

  • JRJ Pocatello, ID
    Aug. 10, 2011 12:10 a.m.

    And please don't forget that EVERYTHING on the internet is true.

  • Demisana South Jordan, UT
    Aug. 9, 2011 10:49 p.m.

    I just love how many of the people commenting on these articles know more about the religion I've been fully participating in for 45 years than I do. Not just the ones on here, I mean the comment boards on these other websites. They twist, misrepresent, and outright lie about what I believe. And denigrate me for being stupid, dumb, brow-beaten, brainwashed, etc. After all, they're getting their information largely from people who have made a living trying to tear down the Church - hey, no conflict of interest there! They obviously must have my best interest at heart... um, yeah.

    Fact is, active adult members of the Church have had people telling them all their lives this same kind of tripe. You aren't telling us anything new, that we haven't heard before. We hear you - we just come away with different conclusions than you do. Because we're willing to listen to both sides, both yours and the Church's side, to reason it out, to pray about it, and make an informed decision.

  • Let's be real Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 9, 2011 10:45 p.m.

    I think that is people still do not understand the "Mormons" then they do not want to understand them. We are the 4th largest church in the US and a major religion in the world. With the internet and all the other opportunities to understand us, if we are misunderstood then those that say they do not understand us choose to do so. Take for examply Mike Huckabee. Last year he put out little tidbits at a time saying as he used little barbs that he really did not know who the mormons were. Really? What did he do during his theology classes that he should have taken for the ministry, sleep? Some people do not want to think anything other than what they want to. They are afraid to learn the truth about something like it may hurt them. If others like their religions, great. Don't dis on ours. We dont dis on yours.

  • IDmom Murray, UT
    Aug. 9, 2011 9:37 p.m.

    I've always been curious about the anti-LDSers. (is that a word? lol) They are always trying to tear down what I believe, but they never give me reason to believe something else. If someone were to tell me (like a grown-up, not a 4 year old) what they believe and what makes them so happy in their beliefs, I would take them a lot more seriously.

  • FDRfan Sugar City, ID
    Aug. 9, 2011 8:15 p.m.

    It's dwindling amongst whites and the educated.

    Pride cycle?

  • Idaho Coug Meridian, Idaho
    Aug. 9, 2011 8:12 p.m.

    I really appreciated the comments in this article by Aaron Sherinian. I loved "faith is something you do as much as you feel or think."

    I struggle tremendously with certain LDS beliefs and history. And the more I read, pray, and ponder the more it seems I struggle. Throughout it all it seems I keep hearing God tell me to stop worrying about what I BELIEVE and start worrying about what I am DOING. This article reinforced that for me.

    If I (if all of us) would take the same amount of time we spend worrying about what we BELIEVE and go out and instead DO things for those in need we would make a huge difference in the lives of others and ourselves.

    I mean, what do we really think we are going to be asked about after this life? (I know Joggle, maybe nothing ;)) Is it more likely, "how did you exercise your faith by loving and servine others?" OR "so, how did you finally come down on that whole polygamy thingy?" Yeah, I think it is time I start forgetting this nonsense about what I BELIEVE and start DOING!

  • 22ozn44ozglass Southern Utah, UT
    Aug. 9, 2011 8:09 p.m.

    no fit in SG:

    The Quoran makes it clear that a man can have up to four wives providing he can adequately care and provide for them, and there are known polygamist Muslim groups here in the US as well.

    I doubt that HBO will be developing a Muslim based Polygamist series any time soon-not because of the lack of interest but out of a lack of courage and not wanting to offend the PC police.

    Curiously, I have noticed that very few if any of those who routinely crtisize and condemn the LDS for practiging poligamy, ever mention let alone condemn the teachings in the Quoran regarding plural marriage and the fact that Muslims accross the world practice polygamy.

    The fact that this crowd of LDS naysayers fail to critisize and to condemn the Muslim practice of polygamy and the Muslim scriptures reveals that in many cases their objection to the LDS church is really not polygamy. Polygamy is just the topic they choose to fixate upon. The real issue/gripe is as captain ahab once said-a little lower layer.

  • RAB Bountiful, UT
    Aug. 9, 2011 6:45 p.m.

    @ Joggle:
    Contrary to your comments, opposing information is extremely strong in poor countries. Other churches are very strong there. Higher education is NOT what impedes the spread of the church amongst the educated. It is the pride that inevitably impedes their teachability as assume they have nothing else to learn.

    @ Lvalfre:
    The church does exactly what you said it should be doing. Paying tithing is a personal choice.

    @ no fit in SG:
    Your judgmental attitude towards all LDS people says more about you than any of them. You are likely of the same royal lineage as them, and no one is claiming your intelligence to be inferior to theirs. Contrary to your claims, most LDS people are very willing to discuss any scripture with you, assuming you are sincere and teachable. Church members likewise are more than happy to discuss any aspect of the temple that could possibly be relevant to you. But if your only goal is to mock and denigrate temple activities, they respectfully decline and request that you live so as to obtain a recommend and find out for yourself what goes on.

  • Abeille West Haven, Utah
    Aug. 9, 2011 6:38 p.m.

    No fit -

    The covenants I make in the temple are both sacred and secret. I don't discuss them with anyone - even with other endowed members of the Church. The covenants I make with God are between he and me alone. If you really want to know them, I have a suggestion: study the gospel, join the Church, be faithful in obeying all the commandments of God, then go to the Temple and find out for yourself. This path is open to all - including you. Now, how evasive is that?

    As far as what's in the scriptures: I'd be happy to discuss any of them with you, in detail, if it were possible to discuss them with the intent of listening and learning from each other. I've studied them for many decades. However, that's not your intent. Your intent is to tear down, not build up. Therefore, discussing these subjects with you would be useless, as you wouldn't want to hear what I was saying anyway.

    And as far as Warren Jeffs goes - I guess you know what he said better than I do. Personally, I don't listen to the man.

  • Fred Vader Oklahoma City, OK
    Aug. 9, 2011 5:25 p.m.

    I find it interesting that the supposedly Internet and morally enlightened LValfre and Joggle/Jiggle use Eurocentric racist comments to try and attack the Church and it's growing membership. Or don't you think that calling new members of the church "dumb, third-world, illiterates" is Eurocentric or racist?

  • no fit in SG St.George, Utah
    Aug. 9, 2011 4:54 p.m.

    Why is it that you always change the subject and refuse to discuss what is in your scriptures and what takes place in your temples?
    Oh, yes, that is sacred, not secret.
    Isn't that what Warren Jeffs said?

  • Full-on double rainbow Bluffdale, UT
    Aug. 9, 2011 4:20 p.m.

    "the fact that it is a faith of action that encourages people to take their faith in relation to Jesus Christ and put it into practice every day, not just on Sunday, and not just when they're on their knees praying, but in how they approach their communities and workplace and how they can make relationships better."

    I think this is a fair point to make about LDS people. You could also say this about many other religions/organizations. Personally I think religion is a contrivance of man. So I can take the middle man (God) out of the equation and try to be kind to others the best I can. The benefit is you don't have to deal with the fear, guilt, and shame of not meeting a standard set by some man made God. You are accoutable to yourself.

  • O'really Idaho Falls, ID
    Aug. 9, 2011 4:19 p.m.

    Loving this tennis match. Abeille is ahead!!

  • Abeille West Haven, Utah
    Aug. 9, 2011 3:38 p.m.

    LOL! Looks like I can't win. Being a member of the LDS Church means I'm obviously an idiotic, bumbling, uneducated, destitute fool to LValfre and Joggle, but I'm some type of 'super duper, highly intelligent, superbly educated, fantastically employed, royal, not-very-humble LDS Mormon lifer' to no fit in SG. I'm either a fool or I lack humility. Oh well.

    The one thing I DO agree with, no fit, is I'm an 'LDS Mormon lifer.' You can mark it down and don't forget it. You (and LValfe and Joggle, too) might not like my beliefs. You have that right. But I have every bit as much right to believe as I choose, and I have every right to point out fallacies in your posts.

    As far as polygamy is concerned - get over it! It's been banned by the LDS Church for 121 years and results in excommunication for any member trying to live it. Funny, though. When consenting adults decide to live together and men father children through multiple women, well, that's your right, isn't it? When Men tie themselves legally to more than one woman (Polygamy), well, that's outrageous! Seems hypocritical to me.

  • Woodyff Mapleton, UT
    Aug. 9, 2011 3:08 p.m.

    This article brings out the anti-LDS. I don't think that my wife would agree with the statements regarding women in the Church as exposed by Johanna Brooks. It is apparent that Joggle and LValfre have a anti-LDS bias. All more the need to attempt to correct mis-information.

  • no fit in SG St.George, Utah
    Aug. 9, 2011 2:58 p.m.

    For you super duper highly intelligent, superbly educated, fantastically employed, Royal(you all seem to like to add this "royal lineage" thing when you describe yourselves), not very humble LDS Mormon lifers:
    You may want to vote for making some "adjustments" during your church meetings. Your scriptures(re: Doctrine and Covenants), will keep this polygamy, etc. topic in the public eye forever. You all will have to keep fighting this same battle over and over and over again.
    Hey, good luck on that.

  • Independent Woman West Jordan, UT
    Aug. 9, 2011 2:39 p.m.

    LValfre: both

  • LValfre CHICAGO, IL
    Aug. 9, 2011 2:24 p.m.

    And I bet you were born into LDS too ... or were you converted later in life?

  • nottyou Riverton, UT
    Aug. 9, 2011 1:44 p.m.

    To: LValfre 11:50 a.m., said, "Here's a mission, instead of converting these people, try building them homes and teaching them sustainable ways to farm, fish, or attain food. That's what they really need ... education. Not misinformation."

    You must be unfamiliar with the LDS Church Welfare Program and the Perpetual Education Fund. Even intelligent people WITH internet service don't always know where to find the truth.

    Now you know.

  • carman Wasatch Front, UT
    Aug. 9, 2011 1:41 p.m.

    LValvre and Joggle certainly seem to have an axe to grind. I can tell you from first hand experience that being faithful and living Christ's teachings, including paying an honest tithe, is more likely to build character, promote happiness and help bring someone out of poverty, than any other single thing one can do.

    As for the issue of "information availability" in developed countries being a hinderance to missionary work, I agree - to a point. I would, however, characterize much of the "information" as "mis-information" or as red-herrings to the gospel message. Most of the mis-information and/or red-herrings are either wrong, taken out of context, irrelevant, or deal with personal failures of imperfect people, and are certainly not valid refutations of the restoration message. I have gone through dozens of these topics with many troubled people and found that most of the time the issue is not the topic at hand, as once resolved, there is ALWAYS another topic of concern. In most cases, there is generally a deeper seeded issue of faith, confusion or a wounded spirit driving the angst, and the topics at hand are simply proximate scape-goats.

  • Abeille West Haven, Utah
    Aug. 9, 2011 1:07 p.m.

    Thanks, Northern Lights. You said it in a much more kind way than I would have. To think that those who are educated know better than to believe in the gospel as taught by the LDS Church is sheer lunacy. And I like your challenge to them, which bears repeating: LValvre, Joggle - post empirical facts to back up your statements. If you can't do it, feel free to read the Pew Forum's research on the subject. You'll find that the LDS faithful are generally more knowledgeable and more wealthy than the average - even here in America. You'll also find that, unlike most religions, the more education LDS faithful receive, the MORE active they are in church. I might not be the best example, as I only have two degrees (one in Accounting and one in Computer Programming), graduated Summa Cum Laude ('With Highest Honors', for those who don't know what it means) with a 3.94 GPA, and make a 6-digit income (well, we are in a recession, after all). And neither my education nor my ability to make a good wage has one thing to do with my belief in the gospel. God loves ALL his children.

  • Northern Lights Louisville, KY
    Aug. 9, 2011 12:44 p.m.

    So, LValfre and Joggle, you are arguing that the LDS Church is comprised only of illiterate, disadvantaged people? I know many who would take exception to such a generalization - present company included. I caution against over-generalizing your argument, expecially without any empirical facts to back it up.

    The mission of the Church is to help ALL come to Christ regardless of race, nationality, or economic standing. For those blessed with greater education and wealth, the Bible does warn against trying to serve both God and mammon (riches). Somehow, your argument seems to support that particular religious principle. Don't know if you intended to do that, however.

  • LValfre CHICAGO, IL
    Aug. 9, 2011 12:37 p.m.


    To make matters worse, these are the people who need the most help and money. These aren't the people who should be tithing 10% of their miniscule incomes. Here's a mission, instead of converting these people, try building them homes and teaching them sustainable ways to farm, fish, or attain food. That's what they really need ... education. Not misinformation.

  • grj Bountiful, ut
    Aug. 9, 2011 12:27 p.m.

    Joggle - it appears you have too much of an anti-LDS agenda or bias for your comments to be taken seriously. Perhaps you might consider not just the increased membership of the LDS faith in "poorer third world countries," but also the tremendous good the church is doing in providing food, water, clothing, preventive and proactive medical care - and hope; we work hard to bring hope for a better life - to millions of people living in those countries.

    What have you done lately to lift someone's burden, other than complain?

  • Joggle Clearfield, UT
    Aug. 9, 2011 12:06 p.m.

    Behind those statistics and demographics, Otterson notes, "are real people of incredible cultural and ethnic diversity."

    You betcha! The LDS Church takes advantage of poorer third world countries where information, education, and literacy are limited. These countries are prime targets for gaining members. Opposing information is less likely to be available. The U.S. is a much less ripe country for pursuasion into the religion because there is so much opposing information available.

  • LValfre CHICAGO, IL
    Aug. 9, 2011 11:50 a.m.

    The church has suffered more and more loss of interest and belief since the internet took hold and much of the church history, alterations, lies, and truths came out. Today, the biggest conversions are overseas in area's with limited resources and education. These people don't have internet to learn more about the church. They only get the 'milk' but never the 'meat'. So of course the church is growing ... in areas where the people are desperate, poor, and looking for some kind of answer. It's dwindling amongst whites and the educated.

  • JM Lehi, UT
    Aug. 9, 2011 11:49 a.m.

    Thanks for the article. It's interesting how, in our age understanding (often shallow), Mormonism is still so misunderstood. Perhaps this is, in part, due to those who intentionally foster misunderstanding (some will probably be here shortly). We are more diverse and closer to ancient Christianity than other Churches I've attended, and are truly re-established Christianity.

  • FDRfan Sugar City, ID
    Aug. 9, 2011 11:37 a.m.

    "Fifteen Mormons now serve in Congress, including Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) and few seemed to worry that the LDS Church was influencing his debt-ceiling proposals."

    Very strong implication the the LDS Church does not approve of Harry Reid. I do not believe that. The perception that the Church is strongly right wing Republican is really saying the Church is lying about its neutrality.