Dick Harmon: Utah Utes will benefit from other Pac-12 teams' mistakes

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  • Snack PAC Olympus Cove, Utah
    July 5, 2011 9:47 p.m.


    If by fine, you mean 7-5 and 6-6 seasons, then you're correct.

  • wwookie Payson, UT
    July 5, 2011 3:43 p.m.

    Why is the Dick reporting on Utah?

    Hmm, seems like he already has his excuses ready for why the Utes succeed in the PAC 12, obviously against his deepest desires. Early projections that the Utes are in over their heads are giving way to a clearer pereception of reality and even the most hateful of commentators like Dick are scrambling to excuse away a probable entry into the first PAC 12 Championship game.

    Again, the Dick really should just stick to covering other things that don't take time to analyze. Those of us already following college football outside the confines of the intermountain west know that the Utes will do fine in the PAC 12 and compete right away, just as they would if they went to any conference in the nation - and this independent of whether the ducks and trojans are under probation or not.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 5, 2011 12:25 p.m.

    @Blue Coug....that's why it's called the If Game Scenerio...I'm a reallist as well as you...but still you have to try sometimes... So I gave the best If scenereo possible...Just wait a while...I'm sure there will be more bites.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 5, 2011 12:08 p.m.


    In 2008 Utah rezoundingly beat Alabama and stuck Nick Sabin's own foot in his mouth but then quietly went to the corner like newly trained pups with Thier "Little Precious" also ran trophy which The Good ole Boys club were more than happy to quippie doll Utah into accepting...knowing thatit would keep Utah occupied and out of the real mix. Utah just rolled over again like they did in 2004....You deserved to be heard...instead you leave it up to Orin Hatch and in a rtound about way... BYU to speak for you. I guess the Don't bite the hand that feeds you mentallity...is too big for Utah to handle. That's not BYU's way....Even Craig Thompson knows that....especially since it was BYU and.... I'm not afraid to say it...Utah that pretty much bought most of the Groceries That's the hard part to swallow... It's not about Utah not haveing good teams or good coaches it's the passiveness of thier fanbase of accepting anything thrown there way.

  • BlueCoug Orem, UT
    July 5, 2011 11:53 a.m.

    Where's Stockton ???

    Having watched Jim McMahon, Steve Young, and Robbie Bosco live and in person at the Holiday Bowl, I would rate it a toss-up whether BYU 1980 or BYU 1983 was the best team. Both teams had early season stumbles, but then came on like gangbusters to finish the season. BYU 1984 simply refused to lose.

    The SMU Pony Express was an amazing offensive machine and for any team to recover from a 20-point deficit would have been an amazing accomplishment; to do it in the 4th quarter, scoring four touchdowns in final six minutes of the game, was a near impossibility, which is why the title "Miracle Bowl" aptly applies.

    Comparing teams from different eras is an exercise in futility. Better and better training techniques and diet have made today's teams bigger, faster and stronger. Take teams from the 80's and give them the same training advantages and they could compete with today's teams. Take them as they existed then, and they'd have very little chance of competing. Today's 265-lb tightends would be bigger, stronger and faster than most of the offensive linemen of the '80s.

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    July 5, 2011 11:16 a.m.


    "You ute haters bash the Utah 1944 bb championship that happened almost 70 years ago. You should take a closer look at your 1984 mythical football championship schedule."

    Just the opposite is true:

    BYU 1984 won a legitimate concensus National Championship -- all five major selecting organizations voted BYU #1

    Utah 1944 didn't even win a mythical national championship

    We have compared the two, and there's no comparing playing a full schedule of legitimate major college football teams versus playing a bunch of pickup games because you were one of only three teams in the entire region that was still playing basketball in 1944.

    BYU 1984 played more difficult regular season opponents than that Utah 2004 team that many Utah fans complained about not getting a chance to play for the NC.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 5, 2011 10:36 a.m.

    Oh and 9erforlife...just to play the if game....if Jim Mcmahon's 10-2 team that beat Eric Dickerson and Craig James's SMU Mustangs in the Holiday Bowl were to play not only your 2004 and 2008 teams but also Robbie Boscoe's BYU 84 National Championship team as well....then Hands Down McMahon would have minced all 3. That is of course... if we're going to play the if game.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 5, 2011 10:04 a.m.

    But the difference is that BYU's schedule comparatively was all Div I real live Universities not rag tag pick up games. Utah had to play and beat Idaho twice to even get 3 actual qualifying games. The other 14 games they played were pick up games with makeshift players...not universities... then even though they were allowed to play in the NIT which did crown the actual National Champion that Year...they lost to Kentucky in the first round. They got a default hardeship invitation to the NCAA because of Arkansas losing a coach and having two of thier players injured in an auto accident. Arkasass was the runner up in the Southwest conference...the conference they were in at the time They didn't get the invite to the NIT that went to the conference champion.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 5, 2011 9:51 a.m.

    Well Gee whiz bleed why don't we just keep spinning and spinning regardless of time and let's make BYU's 2...or is it 3 NIT championships National Championships too....But hey I'm happy even if we don't because 44 is... was...and will always be a fairy tale. Maybe you should take a look at something that came out in a Utah publication. It's an article in Utah Communication History Encyclopedia titled Utah's 1944 National Championship by Kit Chipman April 30th 2010...and I'll be darn...even it states that the NIT in 1944 was still considered the premier tournament crowning a National Championship.

  • 9er4life Provo, UT
    July 5, 2011 9:48 a.m.

    You ute haters bash the Utah 1944 bb championship that happened almost 70 years ago. You should take a closer look at your 1984 mythical football championship schedule. That's nothing to be proud of either. The best game you had you beat a powerhouse WAC member Wyoming at home 41-38. Wyoming ended 6-6 that year. Of the 13 teams ybu played, only 3 teams had 7 or more wins. You bearly beat a 6-6 Michigan team. Overall ybu beat a bunch of nobodies and claimed yourselves national champions. And that's nothing to be proud of is it? If the BCS was in play in '84, do you think you will be considered a champion? I highly doubt it.

  • TrueBlue Orem, UT
    July 5, 2011 9:24 a.m.

    Utah 1944 NCAA and 1947 NIT, and BYU 1951 NIT and 1966 NIT, were all legitimate post-season tournament championships, but none of them can legitimately be called a national championship.

  • DeepBlue Anaheim, CA
    July 5, 2011 8:58 a.m.


    "Utes played teams that were not as good as they were used to playing..."

    The so-called "teams" Utah played were the equivalent of heading down to the local YMCA and joining a pickup game. The "teams" didn't have coaches, they probably didn't have uniforms, and it's doubtful you could find a roster of any of these so-called "teams" to determine if they had a single player who had ever played college basketball.

    Utah didn't play BYU in 1943-44, because BYU, like just about every other college in the region, had suspended its basketball program in December 1943 because the Cougars didn't have enough players left to field a team.

    Nationwide, the few remaining teams still playing basketball were made up of Freshmen and a few Sophomores, because almost all of the upper-classmen were busy fighting a world war, including the teams Utah played in the NIT and NCAA tournaments.

    Utah's 1944 "championship" season, is a fun little human-interest story, but it doesn't come close to being a chest-beating national championship accomplishment.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 5, 2011 8:10 a.m.

    Utes 1944 Fairy tale National Championship (Part II)

    Gordie...I'm at least enough of a Ute fan to know it's actual history...BYU's older but smaller brother.
    Here's a couple of quotes from the period and it might interest you to note that they come from two of the U's own publications.
    Anyways... here are some quotes...

    Dec 30th 1943 The Utah Chronicle

    ..."The University of Utah is the only school left...(in thier conference of course)...trying to run off an athletic schedule." The same article goes further on to state that " even Colorado University, Utah State, Wyoming and Colorado State have all given up the ghost because of the manpower shortages."

    Note...BYU was not in the same conference at the time...

    This next one tells an even more revealing story. It's an article written by Chad Nielson published in the U's magazine ... The Continuum. It states...

    "the Utes played teams that were not as good as they were used to playing. They played teams such as Colorado College, Bushnell Hospital and even the Wendover Bomber Quintet." That's the way it was in 1944. Even makeshift teams just to even have a schedule.

    Continued in Part III

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 5, 2011 7:31 a.m.

    Ute's 1944 Fairy tail National Championship (Part I)

    Gordie...got to give you credit for trying but let's get real. The 1944 championship is a nice story but it still falls short... even as a fairytale. Every University in the country struggled to even field a team. Many gave up and didn't. College sports struggled to even exist at the time. Utah won enough games to qualify and lose to Kentucky in the first round of the NIT that same year... which in 44 was still the true National Championship crown. Utah's original aim was to just win at least enough games to make it to even the lesser of the two tournaments...the newer NCAA. In order to do that they had to really scramble to find even makeshift teams to play. Then even after losing to Kentucky in the NIT they got a second chance when the majic wand of fate sprinkled it's starry dust. Arkansas had to withdraw from an already greatly diminished field of teams... due to afore mentioned manpower shortages in the NCAA's...because of an auto accident that killed an assistant coach, and injured thier athletic director and two of thier best players.

  • skywalker Palo Alto, CA
    July 4, 2011 8:24 p.m.

    It's hillarious how Utah fans berate BYU's concensus 1984 National Championship as being ancient history, but then beat their chests about a 1944 "championship" that wasn't even close to being a national championship.

    How could anybody claim that this is a national championship calibre schedule:

    18th Replacement Wing
    A.S.T.P. Company D
    A.S.T.P. Company B
    A.S.T.P. ERC
    Hill Field Fliers
    Weber Navy
    Kearns 2nd
    Fort Douglas
    Wendover Bomber Quinn
    Ecker Studio
    Fort Logan
    Fort Warren
    Salt Lake Air Base
    Bushnel Hospital
    Dow Chemical
    Salt Lake Air Base
    Idaho State (twice)
    Colorado College

    Utah was 6-1 versus the only legitimate college teams the Utes played in 1943-44, and if they hadn't lost in the opening round of the NIT, they never would have played in the NCAA tournament.

  • Snack PAC Olympus Cove, Utah
    July 4, 2011 7:54 p.m.


    Obviously your Googling needs a little polishing.

    The NIT was originated by the Metropolitan Basketball Writers Association in 1938. During the NIT's first 15 years or so, the winners were hailed as National Champions by some, and dispute surrounded which tournament champion was superior.

    The Helms Athletic Foundation, which independently selected an annual college basketball national champion, chose the NIT champion over the NCAA champion only once, in 1939, while selecting NEITHER tournament champion three times (1940, 1944, 1954).

    In 1944, the Helms Athletic Foundation selected ARMY as the national champions.

    Sorry, your only NCAA championship fell short of a national championship.

  • Snack PAC Olympus Cove, Utah
    July 4, 2011 7:35 p.m.


    We'll see your one NCAA and NIT championship and raise you two NIT championships.

    There's a reason Utah fans NEVER talk about all of the great teams they beat in 1944. There weren't any. In fact, the Utes didn't even play any mediocre teams.

    More, importantly, we'll see your one game over .500 (95-94) record the last six years and raise you a 78% winning record (159-45) during the same time period, the concensus national player of the year and THE most exciting player in the country his senior year.

    The U's ancient, meaningless title, notwithstanding, Utah's basketball program is only a tiny shadow of its former self and it'll be years before the Utes crack the upper division of the PAC 12.

    Oh, and one other little tidbit. BYU has won 9 of the last 10 games and now leads the overall BYU-Utah series.

  • JustGordon Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 4, 2011 2:48 p.m.

    Yes, it was THE National Championship in 1944...the Helms Foundation presented the U with the trophy...in 1939, the only year it did so, the Helms Foundation awarded the trophy to the NIT winner. The U's National Championship is as real as it gets. Nothing like the Y's championship by default for beating a 6-6 Michigan team.

    The U has more NCAA victories than the Y has appearances. It's NCAA Tournament winning percentage is 64% higher than the Y's, who has Zero Final Four appearances, Zero Final Four wins, Zero National Championship wins, Zero Elite Eight appearances, Zero Elite Eight wins...a win percentage of .328 percentage. Utah on the other hand has 27 appearances, four Final Four appearances, and a win percentage of .538 in the tournament, 1944 National Championship and a 1947 NIT Championship. The Y? Zero!

    The U program is in the 12 all time winningest basketball programs in the Nation.

  • Bleed Crimson Sandy, Utah
    July 4, 2011 2:12 p.m.

    @ PAC man

    "Utes 1944 National Basketball championship is real"

    "The Utes' 1944 NCAA tournament championship is real, but it wasn't a national championship. The NIT tournament was the premier tournament of the day, and the Utes got bounced from the NIT in the first round by Kentucky."

    Why don't you google search the 1944 National Basketball Champions. Your google search results will show that Utah won the National Championship that year. You can spin it however way you want. But, sports records will show that Utah was the National Champion in 1944. Your argument will be, the NIT was the more prestigious tournment back in the 1940's. If you are going by that, Utah 3 years later in 1947 won the NIT by beating Kentucky in the finals. Whatever way you want to spin it, Utah won the 1944 NCAA Championship and the 1947 NIT Championship. Utah still has the storied basketball history, byu doesn't!

    Go Utes! and Go Pac-12!

  • Bruce Van Orden Springville, Utah
    July 4, 2011 1:50 p.m.

    I am a retired BYU professor and a BYU sports fan for the past 50 years.

    But the University of Utah is also my university--representing all of us in Utah. We need not argue with each other. We can respect the good from both. Both the UofU and BYU have great opportunities for the future in all sports. Let us all have a good time enjoying each other.

  • PAC man Anaheim, CA
    July 4, 2011 12:56 p.m.


    "Utes 1944 National Basketball championship is real"

    The Utes' 1944 NCAA tournament championship is real, but it wasn't a national championship. The NIT tournament was the premier tournament of the day, and the Utes got bounced from the NIT in the first round by Kentucky.

    Becauwse the vast majority of teams had suspended their basketball programs because of World War II, Utah only had to win three games, Idaho State(twice) and Colorado College, to get to the NIT.

    The few schools that were still playing basketball consisted almost entirely of underclassman, because all of the Juniors and Seniors had been drafted into the military.

    No matter how you slice it, the 1944 tournament was the weakest NCAA tournament in history.

  • sammyg Springville, UT
    July 4, 2011 12:55 p.m.

    @Tommie hawked

    "BYU is jealous of Utah (to varying degrees), but there's nothing BYU has that Utah envies. To deny this is futile."

    ESPN TV > ESPN 700AM radio

    The only way that Ute fans will ever get to see ALL of their games going forward will be with a subscription service with the PAC Network. The Utes will not have every game broadcasted on the Fox / ESPN channels.

    As a little school in the big conference the Utes can be expected to move to the back of the bus for regular network primetime coverage much like they got for 2011.

    As BYU moves through these first couple of years look to see the quality of competition increase. By 2013 the SOS will surpass the likes of anything in the PAC 10.2.

    While the Utes are stuck in a 4th ranked conference BYU will be playing the storied programs from EVERY conference.

    Go Cougars!

  • JustGordon Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 4, 2011 9:06 a.m.

    @ Where's Stockton...FYI, You're no Ute fan. To suggest so is to delude yourself. And based on the comments you have made so far, I would say that is the case.

    Utes are PAC 12 members and able to reap the benefits of all that membership gives them. We care not when we were invited, only to those who seek to belittle that accomplishment would think it important. The big boys invited us to the same table they dine at, that's a bone to you only if you are jealous.

    The Utes 1944 National Basketball championship is real. They won the tournament, the Helm's Foundation which in 1939 had awarded the National Title to the NIT champ and not the NCAA champ, awarded the Utes the title. Those are the facts, little minds can think otherwise.

    We have an academic tradition that includes a Nobel Laureate and we are part of a TV package that now sets the standard for conference contracts and we will still reap the additional reward of a new PAC 12 Conference channel worth an estimated $2 billion.

    Big brother has all he needs and deserves. Does little brother?

  • anti BCS Anaheim, CA
    July 4, 2011 8:27 a.m.

    Tomahawk Red

    Only a delusional Utah fan would try to argue that Utah has better television coverage than BYU.

    BYU's appearances on ESPN are GUARANTEED for the next 8 years. Utah has no such guarantee, in fact, when the PAC 12 schedule was announced for this year, ABC/ESPN completely ignored Utah.

    2011 BYU reality vs Utah fantasy:

    BYU - 7 games on ESPN with more pending
    Utah - 1 game (courtesy of BYU)

    Future years won't be any different. Unless Utah is having a great season, the Utes will be shuffled off to the subscription-only PAC 12 channel for most games.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 4, 2011 5:47 a.m.

    @UF123 Oh I can pettion Larry Scott huh??? That's the best that you can come up with??? What happened...Did Utah lose thier copy???

  • Tomahawk Red North Salt Lake, UT
    July 4, 2011 12:16 a.m.

    Many valid points here, by both sides. But...

    Many Y fans still don't get it. One of you actually claimed that Utah wants what BYU has. I won't bother asking if you really believe that, because I already know you don't.

    BYU is jealous of Utah (to varying degrees), but there's nothing BYU has that Utah envies. To deny this is futile.

    -BCS league
    -Better conference mates
    -Better recruiting
    -Better BCS/NC access
    -a LOT more money
    -More TV exposure
    -More relevance in the current CFB landscape

    -Still mid-major non AQ
    -Harder access to BCS than they had in MWC
    -All other sports downgraded to WCC
    -Outshined by "little brother" from the north, who has roughly 1/10th of the tradition BYU does
    -Draw ire from fans everywhere

    What exactly does Utah envy? And don't say ESPN because the new Pac-12 TV deal gives Utah everything they want in this area.

    A year ago, most BYU fans admitted they wanted what Utah got... but since have backpedaled... now trying to persuade U fans that they've got the better deal. No one believes this... not Y fans, not U fans.

    It's best to just accept it.

  • davidutefan Evanston, WY
    July 3, 2011 11:39 p.m.

    I don't get it. Harmon is usually a BYU hack but, I could find nothing to object to in this article. from what I can see, it's pretty dead-on

  • UteFan123 Sandy, UT
    July 3, 2011 9:42 p.m.

    @Where's Stockton Said agreement can be petitioned from Larry Scott

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 9:39 p.m.

    And Utefan123 BTW I am familiar with MOA's I work in the Oil Industry so I work with them all the time... but they are not finalized contracts and aren't even covennants... they are opening documents to get a project started... either party is under no binding obligation...it's basically an outline of expectations...that could possibly lead to a cooperative agreement.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 9:25 p.m.

    Utefan123 I'll believe you if it's true...where may I find the actual dated MOA and the ringer of the approach to Utah dated prior to what would understandably be the exact same stipulations and perbatum the exact same thing for Texas...but as you say... before Texas. My Missouri bloodlines says show me...The actual dated documents are the only bearing of truth. Just a say so is not good enough...3rd party hearsay is usually nothing more than smoke.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 9:15 p.m.

    ... Alpha Chic Continued
    Like I said the game and the hand isn't over yet...and I also think that Cam Newton isn't out of the woods yet either. Add USC's already determined fate over Reggie Bush and the coverup that went with it...along with the joke of an investigation into the Fiesta Bowl Scandal and what's about to come out of Oregon and all of the stink being either BCS venues or AQ schools... I don't really think the BCS is smelling very rosy at all lately. What can be done one moment can just as easily be undone the next. Benson's 16 team circus act is a prime example and both Utah and BYU were leaders in making that change happen just as soo as possible.

  • UteFan123 Sandy, UT
    July 3, 2011 9:11 p.m.

    @Wheres Stockton You do not know much. Utah and the PAC were in negotiations long before the PAC approached Texas. In fact in 2009 Utah signed a memorandum agreement with the PAC. Just so your feeble mind understands A memorandum of agreement (MOA) or cooperative agreement is a document written between parties to cooperatively work together on an agreed upon project or meet an agreed objective. The purpose of an MOA is to have a written understanding of the agreement between parties.

    There were several key items Utah had to accomplish to get the invite which they did. Even if UT left the Big 12 Utah was plan A and would have gotten the invite. So keep trying to convince yourself Utah was always plan B that was not the case. Utah is in and now will have to prove themselves.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 8:52 p.m.

    Hey Alpha Chic... Who said I wasn't for it. I'm actually a Ute fan...just second to BYU...but let's not try and make it more than it really was. Larry Scott gambled not unsimilar to what Benson tried to do with the Old WAC when he created a 16 team 3 ring circus that became and was a laughing stock. Scott made the attempt to try and draw either or both Oklahoma and Texas...He got niether...and Tex Tech and A&M both higher on the B List than either Colorado or Utah also turned down the offer....that's still an invite true...but let's be realistic it's also a default. Things really aren't as sure as they might appear to be especially within the BCS. I'm out here in Big Ten country. There's a lot more about the Pryor/Tressel investigation that's still ongoing and hasn't totally been aired. The Sugar Bowl that Ohio State played in last year is soon going to be dragged on the carpet as well over a covert requesting that the five players be allowed to play so as not to jeoporadize the 20ll game. Now Oregon's recruiting is in question also.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 8:33 p.m.

    Gordie...There's no way we were expecting to be invited. Most of us are realists...and denial of history is a form of hysteria which you've twice poorly attempted to mythologically smokescreen the reality of the genuine achievement of actually securing a bonifide consensus National Championship... Where just about everyone but Bryan Gumbo, Barry Schwitzer and Brent Musberger voted BYU from a strong #3 into the #1 spot when Barry's favored Sooners fell flat on thier faces and lost to a team that really wasn't in the running and the No. 2 barely escaped If you want to really discuss a mythical National Championship let's go with Utah's 1944 NCAA National Championship Basketball Championship while the NIT was still in many peoples minds the National Tournament. It came when most men were off fighting a war and 4F's were about all that were left around to play baskeball.

  • Alpha Chicken Orem, UT
    July 3, 2011 8:15 p.m.

    @ Where's Stockton
    Its a done deal, so you better just get used to it. You can complain and whine that Utah doesn't deserve it, that they are an afterthought or a mistake. Doesn't matter. It is obviously a good move for all PAC teams and a no brainer good deal for Utah. If BYU would have been invited, you would be singing the praises. What Utah fans are excited about is a higher level of competition week in and week out, with new challenges and new potential rewards.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 8:08 p.m.

    ...and JustGordon do you really want to overplay the research card. The most sensational research headline to ever come out of the U of U was the Cold fussion one....and I still can't get my old reliable 92 Plymouth Acclaim up to warp drive yet... so I recommend that you not go there.

  • panamadesnews Lindon, UT
    July 3, 2011 7:53 p.m.

    To Hank Pymm: The WAC already tried the 16 team conference, which failed miserably. I do not think Scott is so stupid as to try that one again.

  • JustGordon Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 3, 2011 7:51 p.m.

    @Where's Stockton...only the truly jaded would call BCS victories and money and now AQ conference membership "bones'. Sounds like a really, really bad case of sour grapes and envy by a little brother.

    Utes care little if we were the first or last to be invited...what is important is that we were invited and tds was not invited. We are at least invited as opposed to scorned and ignored.

    Your hysterical, historical bla bla bla proves nothing and cannot undo that the Utes have membership in an AQ conference, the money, the position, the prestige and no amount of yes buts or attempts to diminish what tds was not able to achieve and will most likely never achieve is relevant.

    Your eyes are green with envy and in the end you have a mythical championship that everyone discounts. Beating a 6-6 Michigan team at best gives you THE most tainted award major college football history...now there is a legacy to be proud of.

  • panamadesnews Lindon, UT
    July 3, 2011 7:47 p.m.

    Rock Of The Marne: Yes, and you should have added . . . I would have put . . . both AZ teams up against the BYUs "and Utes" any day of the week . . .

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 7:19 p.m.

    Mythical means imaginary...like only being able to dream of...which to me seems more appropriate and applicable to Utah... especially since Utah fans really don't understand that despite now being on the inside doesn't necessarily mean that Utah isn't nothing more than a token chip that raises a pot in an obvious poker game. Utah has been played... and I mean played as in bamboozled twice by the BCS already and they've been raked in twice as well. So now Utah is just a hedge chip in a stack of what's known as insurance. The lead that Scott played was a bluff ...a bluff that Scott was hoping would draw in the A Lister chips...Texas and Oklahoma. But the bluff wasn't good enough to draw in either Texas or Oklahoma so they folded as well as the holders of the top B Lister chips... which left only the Colorado and Utah chips in...a default. The hand nor the game is over yet. Larry Scott isn't exactly sure what he does have. Despite all your wishing and wanting it to be a myth... The 84 National Campionship right now is the only thing that is a sure thing.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 6:31 p.m.

    Jealous of what??? Some of us don't really care...that Utah just happened to be on Larry Scott's B list simply due to geographical paremeters over any other possible reason for getting an invite. And don't start the two BCS bust nausea which compared to the busting of the longest standing string of traditions and bringing down the dominance of the the 3 holiest shrines in College football history...Utah's little also ran trophy's are nothing. So what...Urban wasn't going to stay knowing that he'd never get the real thing. Utah got two bones and sent to the corner by the Good Ole Boys club. It's getting old...especially since Utah just rolled over... wagged it's tail and without even a whimper let them use them when all along they were always going to give it to one of thier own original charter members. That's why Texas and Oklahoma were the A list... and a number of others were much further up the B list than Utah and Colorado. They all turned it down. And this is the Deseret News which according to many utey's like youself is such an obvious pro BYU paper...so why the surprise???

  • ute alumni Tengoku, UT
    July 3, 2011 6:29 p.m.

    Let's hope that Utah does not return to recruiting of yesteryear when tires and stereos were stolen by "athletes".

  • JustGordon Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 3, 2011 6:13 p.m.

    @Where's Stockton...I don't believe in the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny not Santa Claus. Neither do I believe that Utah will be a football power juggernaut overnight...nor did I ever say so. Obviously your willingness to write despairingly of the Utes and their relationship will all the long time members of the "Good Old Boys Club" must come from deep seated inferiority that you seem to want to impose on others.

    You write that Utah is not worth their time, yet we got invited to an AQ conference and will receive millions of dollars that would never have been available as a MWC conference member nor as an independent. If we weren't worth their time, why were we invited?

    I was not questioning Harmon's sincerity, I was questioning his myopic view of timing suggesting somehow that the Ute's earned via two BCS bowl wins, the over all quality of their athletic program and the excellence of the University faculty and research facilities was earned - not timing. Dick's article, in my opinion, is a backhanded compliment.

    The real story on timing is the Y's mythical championship. It is after all what spawned the BCS. End of story.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 6:00 p.m.

    Oh and Pebbles...Yes especially to Frank Kush and Arizona State it was a losing record. A good friend of mine Todd Christinson made sure of that ..he fumbled and turned the ball over 3 straight times inside thier 5 yd line the last game we played them before they went to the PAC. That's why the NFL made him a Tight End instead of a FullBack He was much better at catching than he was at running...But he was a heck of a good blocker though.

  • MidMajor4ever Syracuse, UT
    July 3, 2011 5:50 p.m.

    The overwhelming majority of the responses to this article are jealous Ute haters from happy valley who can't let go of the past.

    I'm sure your envy will continue to direct you to respond to Utah Utes articles, and I will continue to be entertained with your jealousy.

    While the University of Colorado will now be our top rival, you will develop a rivalry with Army or Navy (the other two non-BCS independent teams). Portland and Pepperdine will serve as your new basketball rivals.

    Go Utes

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 5:47 p.m.

    Gee's you sure seem to love Arizona schools... or is it just your anti BYU bias that drives your narrow perception. Despite the 97 National Championship

    Get over it Pebbles...(LOL) I too wore the little square blue and white 3rd Infantry patch in Germany one of many I wore throughout my 23 year AD career. Can't say that it was my most favorite tour however. So lets start with MACV and 9th Infantry in VietNam... 6th Army at the Presidio of Monterey... 8th Infantry Airborne in Germany... 7th Army... like the 3rd Infantry... another Patten Unit in Germany, then 4th Infantry Div in Colorado, Turkey and during Desert Storm and finally Cadet Command 3rd Region at Bowling Green State University. I'm a retired Major... Army Corp of Engineers with 9 years enlisted service...3 as a SFC. Any other questions??? I'm assuming you were in one of it's four tours to Iraq. If that's the case glad to see you made it back and thanks for your service. Happy Independance day...and I'm not talking BYU independence.

  • owlmaster2 Kaysville, UT
    July 3, 2011 5:42 p.m.

    I don't normally read anything Dick Harmon writes and I wish I'd passed again today.
    The best reading here are the posts. Some are hilarious. Thanks posters for the really funny, odd and out of the park comments.

  • CG Orem, UT
    July 3, 2011 4:56 p.m.


    Lying to the NCAA isn't a peripheral matter.

    Nixon didn't get kicked out of office because the Watergate break in. He was kicked because of the coverup.

    USC didn't lose a national championship because of Bush. They lost it because of the coverup.

  • Rock Of The Marne Phoenix, AZ
    July 3, 2011 4:40 p.m.

    Peebles huh. Insult the 3rd Division; I see how you are but surprised I am not. BTW Arizona drubbed your cougs in the Vegas Bowl the last time they played. Pray tell, what is BYUs overall record against the AZ schools? I bet it is a losing record. It's certain Y fans that make me hope the Y never leaves the ranks of the uninvited; their delusions of grandeur are too much to take but amusing in their own right. Enjoy the mid majors.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 3:27 p.m.

    DNews...Hmmm... would you mind allowing the flow of conversation by putting in at least one of my 2 submitted corrections stating that I did in fact mistakenly overlook the fact that Arizona did indeed beat Kentucky for the 1997 Basketball National Championship so that Pebbles... AKA Rock of the Marne... will know that I at least acknowledged his post and was aware of my mistake prior to it's submission.
    I'd appreciate it.

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    July 3, 2011 3:21 p.m.

    re: Cougar_Independence | 9:05 a.m. July 3, 2011

    "Little brother got the invite to the pac10.2, and I want to publicly thank Texas for turning the pac10 down. Thanks to Texas, Plan B for Larry Scott, aka Utah, came to fruition. "

    How do you know what Larry Scott's goal, actual strategy or endgame is? There is only 1 oracle in Omaha. I somehow don't think you are Warren Buffet.

    Whose to say that Larry Scott won't have a 16 team PAC? Utes & CU first then UT-Austin, OU, Okst & Texas Tech.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 3:17 p.m.

    oh and pebbles...Not the Arizona Teams...but more specific... Arizona State unless you want to count Arizona's Polo team...I don't think anyone else played polo in the WAC. BYU's horses were for rodeo's

  • II Las Vegas, NV
    July 3, 2011 3:06 p.m.

    Swoop: No one has answered my question yet. What were USC's other major violations besides stuff peripheral to Reggie Bush, over the ten years? From what I read, his parents got the benefit (like Cam Newton's dad tried to do in the SEC) and Pete Carroll was surfing on North Shore instead of babysitting year round.

    Bush and USC gave the Heisman back, it was not stripped.

    Also, not sure about everyone else, I don't count the BCS as anything other than the BCS championship. It's less of a National Championship than the AP, which admits it's a poll (exactly like the BCS is, but the BCS doesn't admit it and stacks the polling). The AP still acknowledges USC won two in a row.

    USC and OR and others may or may not be reeling, but Utah will have it's hands full, as will BYU with its schedule. It would be neat to see both win 10+ games, but don't think that is in the near future...

  • Rock Of The Marne Phoenix, AZ
    July 3, 2011 2:56 p.m.

    As per Here's Stockon "Since Arizona and Arizona State have only the one Rose bowl appearance and no National Championships in football or Basketball between them." Maybe you better educate yourself a bit on Arizona B-Ball as the Wildcat's won the NCAA tournament in 1997. I would put the accomplishments of both AZ teams up against the BYUs any day of the week where they would shine brightly. Pray tell who used to dominate the WAC; the AZ teams.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 2:48 p.m.

    @bgl continued...
    The PAC-10 handle had more to do with the association with the Rosebowl and the BIG 10 ties. They never referred to themselves nor did the media as the PAC-8... and prior to AZ and Arizona State they couldn't call themselves the BIG-8 since that was already in use by another conference after the beginning of the breakup of the old Southwest Conference when Oklahoma and others began to leave. So with Arizona and Arizona St. the media began to refer to them as the PAC-10. ...but the PAC still today stands as an acronym for what it was in the beginning.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 1:59 p.m.

    Dude... It was originally and always has been the acronymic PAC i.e.the Pacific Athletic Conference since the inception of the original 8 teams... USC, UCLA, Stanford, Cal, Washington, Washington State, Oregon, and Oregon State. They never stopped using or changed the PAC acronym handle... they only amended a hyphenated 10 when they added Arizona and Arizona State. The PAC acronym is not disfunctional but is continued traditionally to maintain a dycotymous connection to it's roots.

    Call it (PAC) what you want...it's still intended to recall it's origin. Since Arizona and Arizona State have only the one Rose bowl appearence and no National Championships in football or Basketball between them... since becoming members... then for all intents and purposes it could just as easily have been reconstituted as the PAC-8.2 they've really done nothing since to show for all thier so called superiority over the old WAC teams they left behind. And as far as Colorado and Utah are concerned today...until they blaze trails and break ground worthy of note then it isn't far fetched to consider that thier addition has only now reconstituted another PAC-8 derivative version...i.e PAC-8.4.

  • Ldsfan South Jordan, UT
    July 3, 2011 1:13 p.m.

    Let's move on from here. We are in the PAC 12 and there is nothing anyone can do to change it. Utah will be competitive every year and we will have the best teams coming to RES each season. Never a down week. The facilities will improve and within a few years, a stadium expansion will occur. I can't wait for the two end zones to be completed which will add approximately 16000 to our 45000.

    Great life to be a Ute.

  • WJCoug South Jordan, Utah
    July 3, 2011 12:52 p.m.

    You know, there really are some good Utah fans out there - particularly when it comes to rivalry.

    Unfortunately, there are some real jerks as well. It is a shame that there is not an option to ignore the habitual BYU haters. It would make for more civil and much better dialogue.

    By the way, the same can be said for the U of U haters as well.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 12:50 p.m.

    Meanwhile... @Just Gordon... Dude...you can go along your merry way still believing in the Tooth Fairy, The Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and that Utah will become an overnight Grid Iron unstoppable Jaugernaut blitzkregging it's way through and toppling the BCS anywhere and everywhere. It's going to be nice... all that money and everything yes... but not quite what you expected...especially when that first big BCS welfare check comes to Utah and the realization that despite riding the coat tails of much bigger and better programs that you are still in reality considered by the original Good Old Boys Club Members mediocre at best... and not worth thier time.

    When you have actually done something as meaqningful as having busted the Good Old Boys Club's longest standing and sacred traditions then come back and question Harmon's sincerety. The only thing that Utah has accomplished is that they have twice performed a couple of nice tricks...were given a couple of bones...wagged thier tails and then without even a whimper went straight to the corner where they were sent by the Good Old Boy's... while they actually gave one of thier own... what rightfully...especially in 2008... was Utah's.

  • mussingaround Palo Alto, CA
    July 3, 2011 12:21 p.m.


    "Are Utah fans really this insecure that they can't read a Utah article written by a BYU beat writer without having a panic attack?"

    Obviously, many of them are that insecure!

  • sammyg Springville, UT
    July 3, 2011 12:17 p.m.

    I think Dick hit the nail squarely on the head this time.

    The only way the Utes will play in the Rose Bowl in January of any given year is by default. That's when all but the Utes in the PAC 10.2 are under sanctions for NCAA violations.

    Thanks Dick for pointing that out! Great article!

  • PAC12Fan South Jordan, UT
    July 3, 2011 12:08 p.m.

    It's seems ironic to me that such a great school like USC would ever have to pay players to come. Great facilities, great weather, near most of their players' homes, 90,000 in attendance each week. Granted USC is in the middle of a horrible neighborhood but once you've entered the (high) walls, it feels like an oasis in the desert.

    I see Oregon in a different situation. The weather is not always great, the stadium is full but not a great stadium and Eugene is not close to any major airport. You have to want to go there. In order to consistently compete with USC, some top recruits something, something. The truth will soon surface and Oregon will get a major handslap.

  • scott Alpine, UT
    July 3, 2011 11:40 a.m.

    Are Utah fans really this insecure that they can't read a Utah article written by a BYU beat writer without having a panic attack?

  • uteBusters Park City, UT
    July 3, 2011 11:32 a.m.


    PAC 10.1.1beta would be more accurate, but that takes more effort to type.

  • bgl Santa Monica, CA
    July 3, 2011 11:21 a.m.

    Why do so many of the BYU posts refer to the Pacific 12 Conference---or the Pac 12 as the PAC? What is the PAC? (Pacific Athletic Conference, I guess?) Guess what folks? The Pac in Pac 12 is an abbreviation and not an acronym. I think BYU should not be allowed to enter a BCS conference until it's fan base knows the names of the conferences. We wouldn't want them calling the Big 12 conference, THE BIG or the Big East Conference THE BEC. Kinda embarrassing when you think about it.

  • Mt Rushmore Arlington, VA
    July 3, 2011 11:03 a.m.

    After all of the gushing about Utah's move to the PAC 12 during the last few days, it's hillarious to see how insecure the kids on the hill remain.

    Once little brothers, always little brothers.

  • Hellooo Salt Lake City, UT
    July 3, 2011 11:01 a.m.

    So Dick is this a Fruedian slip, "Kelly is a liable guy"?

  • cactusflats American Fork, UT
    July 3, 2011 10:59 a.m.

    Go Utes. Go Cougars. Please, to both schools: do not compromise your high standards and get nailed with NCAA violations. All your hard work and PR these past 30 years will have gone for naught.

  • Swoop Salt Lake City, UT
    July 3, 2011 10:59 a.m.


    "I can only think of one major violation in ten years, and that had to do with one individual, Reggie Bush."

    Reggie Bush was the issue, but USC's coverup was the major violation that got a Heisman and a National Championship stripped from the Trojans.

    Nike U is facing major sanctions and the Ducks know it.

  • hedgehog Ann Arbor, MI
    July 3, 2011 10:58 a.m.

    "Don't write about things you know little or nothing about."


    Totally Agree.

    Dick knows nothing about BCS conferences. Stick to Non AQ /Mid major reporting.

  • Truth Machine Salt Lake City, UT
    July 3, 2011 10:47 a.m.

    I Still Can't Say It

    "All of this contributes to a vicious cycle making it seem like there are a lot more fans of the other team, which is overblown."

    Not only does it SEEM like there are a lot more BYU fans, it's a proven FACT.

    LES 65,000 > RES 45,000, radio and television ratings, attendance, blog responses, are all supporting evidence that BYU's fan base is significantly larger than Utah's.

    Your feeble effort to spam DesNews blogs to "balance" things is wasted effort.

    Dick Harmon is simply reiterating the timing advantages that any astute Utah fan would have already recognized -- that possibly having the top two programs in the PAC 12 crippled by NCAA sanctions would certainly be an advantage for all of the other teams in the league, but especially for a team like Utah that is trying to make the adjustment from competing in the MWC to competing in the PAC 12.

  • SoCalUtahFan Utesville, CA
    July 3, 2011 10:11 a.m.

    Dear Dick,

    Really? Writing a Utes article? I like your articles better when you write about BYU--I can always find a few laughs. But writing about Utah...let's just say you have a limited repertoire when it comes to writing about Utes.



  • JustGordon Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 3, 2011 9:49 a.m.

    Really, Dick, You are writing about timing in an article about the University of Utah football program? Since when? (Notice the reference to time.)

    You cite Neil Armstrong and the pilots of the Hindenburg as examples of timing is everything! I should have thought the Y's 1984 nobody else wants it, gosh all the more highly rated teams lost, let's give it to the Y for beating a 6-6 team, mythical championship as the quintessential example of timing.

    Don't write about things you know little or nothing about. Stick to your blue beat in Provo and singing the praises of independence and playing all those WAC teams that is the Y's reality. After all this is the July 4th weekend!

  • I Still Can't Say It Holladay, UT
    July 3, 2011 9:45 a.m.


    Unfortunately, I have a responsibility to read any story involving the Utes in the local media -- even if it's a hack job -- which is often the case.

    Why you might ask? Because on-line mouse clicks are tracked closely by the D-News, Trib, and other on-line publications for advertising purposes. Ute fans
    need to represent their team, which is tough, considering the quality of local media covering Utah sports. We don't have big media supporters like the other team has (like Harmon, Rock, or Robinson), so many Ute fans don't even bother reading.

    All of this contributes to a vicious cycle making it seem like there are a lot more fans of the other team, which is overblown.

    I'll read and I'll respond accordingly....

  • I Still Can't Say It Holladay, UT
    July 3, 2011 9:36 a.m.

    @BYU Dude

    I'm not sure if everyone in Utah has switched allegiances to the Utes. But a whole bunch top in-state recruits certainly have recently. :)

    I guess the promise that "NO" top-notch in-state recruit will ever commit to Utah over the other team has gone the way of 2008's "The Quest."

  • hymn to the silent Holladay, UT
    July 3, 2011 9:22 a.m.

    The misfortunes of these others only makes up for the fortunes they gained undeservedly. Kudos to those investigating...sure, we'll take the added advantage, we need it. It's going to take some time to build a competitive team year in and year out. College sports should be about integrity and character; and while it often is not, it never justifies lowering the bar for all.

  • II Las Vegas, NV
    July 3, 2011 9:08 a.m.

    Dick: "USC is already reeling from sanctions imposed in various major violations, including benefits Reggie Bush received from an agent." I can only think of one major violation in ten years, and that had to do with one individual, Reggie Bush. What are the others?

    Otherwise, go Utes, go Cougs.

  • Cougar_Independence OMAHA, NE
    July 3, 2011 9:05 a.m.


    "Why can't you Ute fans in Utah break the habit of ranting about BYU?"

    Because little brother can never get over Big Brother BYU's outshining them.

    National championship, guaranteed games on ESPN, it's own HD national TV channel, a 6 game series with Notre Dame, a home game against Texas, etc. All things BYU has, Utah envies, but Utah will never get.

    Little brother got the invite to the pac10.2, and I want to publicly thank Texas for turning the pac10 down. Thanks to Texas, Plan B for Larry Scott, aka Utah, came to fruition.

    Thanks Texas!

  • Machado South Jordan, UT
    July 3, 2011 8:37 a.m.

    What exactly did Harmon say that has you so defensive?

    Are you really so thin-skinned that you look for opportunities to be offended?

    Are you really so afraid of the opinions of others that you stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and chant so you won't have to listen to what they have to say?

    I have no idea if Harmon's take will turn out to be prophetic or not but I thought it was an interesting perspective. And I wasn't threatened by it in the least.

  • dave31 Salt Lake City, UT
    July 3, 2011 8:29 a.m.

    I thought Dickl's comments were sincere. Unlike many fans of the "School up North." most of us Cougar fans will always cheer for the Utes unless they are competing directly against BYU. Go BIG RED!

  • VegasBart N. Las Vegas, NV
    July 3, 2011 8:11 a.m.

    @ I Still Can't Say It-----Then you are aware that you don't have to read Mr. Harmon's articles, don't you? Why on earth would you read an article on the Utes if you know beforehand that it is insincere? Doesn't pass the smell test.

  • TJ Eagle Mountain, UT
    July 3, 2011 7:55 a.m.

    I still can't say it;
    Why are you offended by this article? It is all true. It even gives the Utes a little more to look forward to with the two top PAC football powers exposed for cheating. The Utes have an easier path to the top of the PAC if they can take advantage. What is the issue?

  • kitsutsuki South Jordan, Utah
    July 3, 2011 7:50 a.m.

    It is true that no one should revel in the misfortunes of others. But in Utah's case "misfortune of others" is their only hope of having any type of success. Bring on the NCAA investigations!

  • CougFaninTX Frisco, TX
    July 3, 2011 7:05 a.m.

    Great update on U's opportunities and Oregon's violations in comparison to other programs. Sorry some other readers look at everything through Crimson colored glasses and don't see the value of solid journalism and commentary.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    July 3, 2011 6:18 a.m.

    Sorry Dick... but Yahoo beat you to the punch several days ago on this Texas high school recruit related story. This is old news. And even if the Ducks do get sanctioned the Utes still have to win thier games. It's still going to be an uphill battle after Montana State. Chow's complex aerial bombardment schematic isn't something that Wynn or his backups are going to learn overnight... and with him coming off of throwing arm surgery without much in the way of spring practice he and the backups will be lucky to be getting it down by mid season or later. The O line still will have holes in it and Wynn is going to be doing a lot of srambling and Langi and the other running backs will have to get used to catching the ball or blocking a lot more than running the ball from scrimmage. The entire PAC will have to implode for the Utes rise to the top of the deck...and thast can only happen by pure luck in this first outing. I'd like to see it...It would be great...but there's a heck of a lot of ground to cover first.

  • Joe Schmoe Orem, UT
    July 3, 2011 5:52 a.m.

    None of this will matter if Utah doesn't win.

    It is going to be an interesting year of football in our great state. I can't wait!

  • BYU DUDE Provo, UT
    July 3, 2011 2:31 a.m.

    Dick Harmon that was an academy award performance but you can't fool Utah fan's

  • BYU DUDE Provo, UT
    July 3, 2011 2:14 a.m.

    @ Dick Harmon

    You should consider sticking to covering the school in Provo. We know where your heart and your loyalties are. Forgive us BYU fans if anything you write about the Utes seems, well, insincere.

    I could not agree with you more.

  • BYU DUDE Provo, UT
    July 3, 2011 2:09 a.m.

    Moderator please tell me you are reading this and laughing.

  • BYU DUDE Provo, UT
    July 3, 2011 1:57 a.m.

    Harmon should stick to BYU and stop wasting his time.

  • BYU DUDE Provo, UT
    July 3, 2011 1:51 a.m.

    I still Can't say it.

    If you only knew How much Harmon loves Utah,

    When Utah went to the Pac 12 Harmon switched allegiances, along with most BYU fan's and all the Top recruits. BYU has no chance to ever wining another head to head game with Utah. And the recruiting battles forget it Cougars, it's over BYU is just not the kind of place to attend school and Play Football the honor code is just to tough , and yes BYU is to intimidated to play team's in the mighty Pac 12.

    This is all tongue in cheek see you SEP 17 with a chip on our shoulder and a surprise on the score Board.

    P. S. Utah is going to need a bigger Pirate Ship.

  • 79Ute Orange County, CA
    July 3, 2011 1:41 a.m.

    Why do so many of our fans have to make everything an issue with BYU? Speak for yourself, not for "us Ute fans." Us Ute fans in CA are excited to be in the Pac-12 and look forward to competing against the schools our neighbors attended. My next door neighbors are from USC and UCLA. Across the street are Colorado and Stanford. Rancor is absent from all of our conversations about new rivalries. Why can't you Ute fans in Utah break the habit of ranting about BYU? Just because a writer whose primary beat is BYU choses to write an article about the U doesn't mean it's insincere. It only seems insincere because you want to make it so. The article has not hint of it. Show some class for a change, like our Pac-12 neighbor alumni do.

  • I Still Can't Say It Holladay, UT
    July 2, 2011 11:37 p.m.

    @ Dick Harmon

    You should consider sticking to covering the school in Provo. We know where your heart and your loyalties are. Forgive us Ute fans if anything you write about the Utes seems, well, insincere.

    Thank you