I guess we're all going to be on social medicare, cradle to grave. Goodbye to
the health care system we have known....BlueCross, Cigna, Humana, MetLife,
Kaiser, United, DMBA, Aetna, etc...
Re: Pagan/PagenThe point of this whole story is that a third of
employers may drop health plans in 2014 thanks to Mr. Obama. When government
gets its fingers into something you can't possible expect it to succeed ....
with the possibility of wars we start, the post office, social security, and oh
yes, no child left behind.
Hmmm, as I recall the GOP was forecasting this very thing happening about a year
ago when Obamacare was being rammed down our throats and of course the demo-rats
were promising no such thing would happen. Oh and I'm just certain this has
nothing to do with all the insane mandates, taxes and crap that Obamacare is and
will be lumping on employers going forward. Isn't this convienent that employers
start dropping their benefits for health care just in time for the big brother
government to come sweeping in and save the day with their own insurance. Oh and
I'm just certain this is just a coincidence. NOT!!!!! This has been the plan
from day one with Obamacare - to create a giant government dependence and
increase their al-mighty power over our lives. I smell a single payer plan about
to be re-introduced by the chosen one.
Pagan,It is not a study. It is a survey, as indicated by the
article. I'm beginning to suspect you didn't even read it (the article). My questions were only to give you an opportunity to make sense of your
post and how it related to mine. Because you cannot answer the questions
adequately, you refuse to. If you would stay on topic with your posts, I
wouldn't have so many questions about them.Why can't you help me
make the connection? Because there is no connection. Share an example of a
BUSINESS declaring bankruptcy because of the rising costs of insurance, and you
MIGHT have a point. But even then, it'd be inconclusive, unsupported by ANY
sources, and pure conjecture on your part. How does an individual declaring
bankruptcy have any effect on the business that employs him/her?I
understand that health care costs have been skyrocketing. They continue to
skyrocket under Obamacare. Care to provide any evidence that Obamacare has
reduced the rate at which health care costs are increasing?
Does anyone really understand what Pagan's posts are about? Most of the time I
skip over them cause they don't make any sense. Today I decided to try and make
sense of a couple of them with no luck.
Let's see how long it is before the federal government starts
"borrowing" just short term from health care to pay for pet projects
and other pork and bribe their followers to vote for them again. That's why
social security is in such trouble. Borrow Borrow Borrow, the next generation
can pay. Borrow now, think later attitude is not working. I have $15 Trillion
reasons why it's not working. That's pretty compelling arguement right there. I
don't care where the money was spent or the programs created from it. It's debt!
Pure and simple. Debt is NOT prosperity! Debt is the opposite of prosperity. We
are NOT the richest country in the world. We are just as poor as the third world
countries we're borrowing from.Why can't the left wrap that around
their heads? It's simple. They don't care what happens. Their attitude is as
long as they're taken care of (live for today)don't worry about tomorrow.Well I'm not interested in passing debt on to other generations. Our
legacy is either debt or surplus. I would rather have surplus as our legacy.
The best way to keep costs down is through competition. Eliminating competition
is not good for medical costs or clinical outcomes.I am fully in
favor of universal coverage. But I am adamantly opposed to the government
driving the market for heatlhcare coverage.Somebody once again
claimed U.S. healthcare is not as good as Europe. Note a couple of huge
differences: Europe is perfecting U.S. innovation (much like Japan did in the
technology revolution) while the U.S. continues to pour more and more money into
medical research (such as a huge part of Obama's economic "stimulus"
spending).So our president has done the two things to healthcare
that we really can't afford right now: 1) discouraged competition, and 2)
increased healthcare costs.And please stop thinking healthcare is
perfect outside of the U.S. France and parts of Canada (British Columbia) are
actually looking to re-privatize health insurance coverage due to government
ineffectiveness. Single payer really isn't such a golden idea.What
we need to do is find a way to get the world to pay the U.S. for our healthcare
and pharmaceutical innovation!
Pagan-I inserted the word "Obamacare" because it was an
antecedent. Since I didn't include the antecedent in the quote itself, its
meaning is unclear. It's a common practice. It's very obvious from many quotes
in the article that employers are dropping health insurance coverage due to
Obamacare.It's quite a logical leap to jump from a health insurance
company dropping individual policy holders to employers dropping health
insurance coverage from its benefits. They're completely different animals. I
ask again, do you have any evidence for your claim that employers were dropping
coverage before the law was enacted?I also have no idea where you
got the idea that an increase in the number of bankruptcies should be ignored.
What did I say that implied that? How do bankruptcies apply to employers
dropping certain benefits?What does a public option being included
in health care reform have anything to do with my argument? I'm not even sure
whose points you're trying to rebut. Strawman, perhaps?
Re: Pagan | 9:25 a.m. June 8, 2011 Why should employers be expected
to pay for something Obamacare is going to take care of? If employers are given
options they should be expected to take the one that costs them the least. A
win win for everybody ..... except maybe for the taxpayers and they're
@IDCBingo! You hit the nail on the head.
'You claimed in your post at 9:25 am that employers were going to drop coverage
before Obamacare was enacted. Do you have any evidence that this is true?' -
screenname | 11:58 a.m. June 8, 2011 Well, I thought the date, time
and source of healthcare companies dropping patients for 'pre-existing
conditions' was evidence enough. *'Wellpoint Drops Coverage For Some
Women With Breast Cancer' - By Mary Ellen Egan - Forbes Magazine - 04/23/10 But true this is not the 'employers' per se'. Just the
insurance companies they employ. Does this mean you would get any
health insurance if your insurance company, provided by your employer dropped
you? No. And how does the study 'precisely' name
Obamacare... if you have to insert the word? It's called
HEALTHCARE reform. Also, I cited a 81% increase in bankrupcies from
the American Journal of Medicine. That is a direct corelation. Or
are you implying that a more than 3/4ths increase in bankrupcy, from 1981 till
today, should be ignored... instead of healthcare reform, signed a
little over one year ago? And last, was a Public Option INCLUDED in
healthcare reform? No. It wasn't.
Pagan-You claimed in your post at 9:25 am that employers were going
to drop coverage before Obamacare was enacted. Do you have any evidence that
this is true? Keep in mind that this survey specifically mentions
that a higher percentage of companies indicated they might drop coverage due
precisely to Obamacare: "the McKinsey consultants explained the
law's [Obamacare] "implications for their companies and employees"
before asking for a response, according to the report..."It
appears that a large number of the companies contemplating dropping health
insurance is a result of Obamacare, not the rising costs of health insurance.
'Let's face it pagan you're leader is going down the toilet.' - Liberal Ted |
10:43 a.m. June 8, 2011 Well, at least your going away from calling
Obama 'boy', as the first black president. But if your implying he's
'my' leader... do you feel that you are above the President of the
United States and shouldn't have to follow his legal orders? I have
almost NEVER agreed with George W. Bush, but I never claimed he WASN'T President
of the United States. Just a bad one. And then, dosen't
that mean he was YOUR leader, that you elected... twice?
JustAsking - One of the big promises (lies) from Obama about his "health
care reform" was that it was going to save me money. It was going to put
pressure on the big Insurance companies to increase efficiency in order to
compete. It was going to force Pharmaceutical companies to make reasonable
profits. Bullocks!And as long as I stay under a group plan, my wife
will remain covered, though the out-of-pockets are going to go up and up and
up.I'm not only criticizing Obamacare because it hasn't done / isn't
doing / won't do what it promised. I am criticizing our government of the last
25 years for allowing the Health Care industry to rape the American people. I
am equally criticizing them for not passing Tort Reform to limit malpractice
awards, which is a major determinant in rising health care costs.We
don't treat the disease in this country. We treat the symptoms in a reactive
mode that buries the economy and the average citizen in red tape and national
J-TX your increases in cost for insurance are on par with previous year
increases. 18% is consistent with historical year over year averages going back
for almost 7 years.I suppose you are writing President Bush a
scathing letter complaining about it. Obama Care is not to blame for
your woes. In fact thanks to Obama care you will be able to find coverage for
your wife in the future. That is definitely an option not available in the past.
Oh thank you, oh wise barackupcy! Borrow, Spend, Borrow, Spend!! Yes oh Yes it
feels soo good to run the country into the ground.We don't need
silly jobs!We have welfare and a nanny state to make all the bad go
away:)Let's make barry huessein obama our king! There is no chance
of corruption, greed, deals with big business like GE, GMC, OIL, ACORN, Weiner
etc!Let's face it pagan you're leader is going down the toilet.
Pelosi did keep one promise. The swamp in DC is going to be drained of the
filth. They cleaned out a good portion of it last election. Come on 2012 and
we'll clean out some more of it!
Had Obama ever run a company, worked in a company or had any experience in
business, he would have seen this coming.It's about time we send a
man to to do a man's job.
'Obamacare has thus; 1) Limited choice and competition' - J-TX | 9:56 a.m.
June 8, 2011 This would make sense... if you provided
even ONE health insurance comapny that went under after 'Obamacare'.
Since you didn't.... What healthcare providers are you factually
DENIED from using? You didn't say. Also, major
healthcare provides could 'opt out' anytime! It was called a 'pre-existing
condition.' *'Wellpoint Drops Coverage For Some Women With Breast
Cancer' - By Mary Ellen Egan - Forbes Magazine - 04/23/10 And last,
if you cannot see that healthcare cost's have been going up...
since 1981... supported by the American Journal of Medicine in
2009... which I posted on 9:25 a.m. June 8, 2011!
Well... I cannot help you if you want to 1) Created and 2) Ignore
the facts of the matter.
It is easy for those that support Obamacare to look forward with an optimistic
eye right now. We are only speculating how the system will work and what the
benefits will be. The promise of universal health care is easy to look at with
rose colored glasses. But can any of those supporters help me out and give me
any government run program that is run well? I just need a glimmer
of hope.All government run programs are slow, long lines,
inefficient, and a big pain to deal with. I know that this is a huge
generalization, that is why I am asking for the example of a well run program so
I can pin my hopes on that.
This report also found: "Overall, employees value cash compensation
several times more than health coverage. Further, many younger employees also
value career-development opportunities and work-life balance more than health
benefits," McKinsey says. 60 percent of employees surveyed expect employers
to offer higher wages if they drop insurance coverage, and most employers said
they probably would.Another reason why employees might tolerate the
axing of their benefits is that the policies offered by the state exchanges may
be better and cheaper for them."Sounds like a win win....Again Hooray for Change!!!! Hooray for the economy!!! Hooray for Obama
Northern Lights.I have Medicare but also a choice of several plans for
supplemental coverage. I have more healthcare freedom now than I ever did
Obamacare has thus;1) Limited choice and competition, 2) Made
healthcare less available by having health providers opt out of major plans,
and3) Made health care more expensive.My group health renewal,
which takes effect in September, has me paying 18% more overall (prescriptions
are 50% more), with a reduction in benefits. Thank goodness my wife's current
cancer treatment is under this year's "cheap" plan.....NOT.
Would any fan of Obamacare care to explain to me how it helps the common man
stand up to the evil insurance companies? Does it break up the supposed
monopolies? Does it offer an alternative? Does it force them to lower their
Employers like me, are finally seeing the reality that when individuals can buy
better insurance, cheaper, without interference from employers they are better
off taking their healthcare into their own hands. Finally we will be
free to choose...... Republicans had years to address this issue but they chose
to bask in the "PAYOLA" of special interests and profit from our
misery. Shame on Republicans for supporting a communistic system of
corporate greed. Thank you Obama for standing for freedom and for restoring a
truly capitalistic system.
If you thought your employer was going to keep paying for your healthcare BEFORE
healthcare reform, you are foolish. And need to keep up with the trends. 'Only in America: Bankruptcy Due to Health Care Costs' - James E.
Dalen, MD, MPH - 08/04/09 'The article by Himmelstein in this issue of
the The American Journal of Medicine documents that health care expenses were
the most common cause of bankruptcy in the United States in 2007, accounting for
62% of US bankruptcies compared with 8% in 1981.' - American Journal of
Medicine Employers were going to drop health plans BEFORE healthcare
reform. And if you didn't have any health insurance? *'Uninsured ER
patients twice as likely to die' - AP - 11/16/09 What could have
POSSIBLY helped you if your employer drops your health plan? A
Public Option? Boy. Good thing our 'saviors', the Republican Party
fought, tooth and nail AGAINST healthcare reform and a public option, huh? Death Panels They're gonna kill grandma Final solution You keep believing those lies.
Where is the Capitalism in a system that does not give choice to the consumer.
As a business owner I have been paying through the nose to the Monopoly of
insurance tyrants long enough, with virtually nothing in return but a broken
system. I applaud Obama and Healthcare reform for finally forcing
the unscrupulous to provide reasonable choices to those who want to have a
viable healthcare system. When outside forces strangle the health of
an entire nation it is time to rise against those forces to reclaim our right to
choose. There is no single payer system in Obama Care nor is there Government
dominance of healthcare. Thank you President Obama for standing against the
crushing tyranny of a multi-billion dollar industry so we can all finally be
free to choose....
FDRfan,I disagree with your comment. I feel that a mandatory
"national or state" plan takes away my freedom of choice. Without
freedom of choice as a consumer, I lose any leverage to negotiate the best
possible terms for the services I want. I would also prefer to avoid any
"cookie-cutter" program which becomes administratively bloated due to
inefficiencies and mismanagement. Anyway, that's my opinion.
Business is not supposed to provide a "nanny state" for employees.Business exists to make a profit.If an employee does not
like that fact...move on.Business has now improved its
"bottom line" by eliminating health care coverage for employees.The next step is to end Medicare.The step after that is to
end Social Security.If a citizen does not like those facts...they can move on.Hey, I'm not kidding...Pawlenty
told me to "Google" it...
One again greed and profits come before human life. Capitalism is meant to be
for the People not the Corporation. Business will again make sure it gets what
it wants at the expense of people. Then people will defend businesses to do
whatever they want to and claim it is Capitalism. That is not the Capitalism
Adam Smith the economist wanted- he believed business should take care of its
employees but in today's America we have lost sight of that. We then blame the
government for trying to force us to be better human beings than we have become.
Those of you that think there is Capitalism in practice with insurance
companies have been duped by the powers that be. Insurance is a giant empire
that has total control and doesn't want its own customers to have any power or
say. While Obamacare may not be the answer to insurance and health care problems
at least it is an attempt to fight against greed and destroy the insurance
empire in order to create real Capitalism and choice for the customer- not
Capitalism for the corporation only.
I think Howard S. is onto something. The more people rely on the government,
the more power obama and the democrats have. The more history I read, the more
this becomes apparent. Get people in debt to you, get them reliant on you, and
they will be yours forever - it is too painful to get out from under those in
Businesses exist to make a profit for their owners/shareholders, not to be
lackeys to a socialist government that hates business.Sadly, this
forces businesses to drop healthcare plans that have been great for employees.
And, it will destroy most of the choices available in the past for different
types of health insurance.Obamacare is a bad plan, and passed in
great haste (and deception) to hide its many flaws and consequences (intended
and unintended).Repeal of Obamacare will be a major step towards
improving the the rapidly declining state of healthcare.Obama was
untruthful when he claimed "If you like your insurance you can keep
it" and "Healthcare costs will go down."
This just strengthens my belief that we should have a plan (national or state)
where all pay something and all are covered. I see no reason why we should have
subsidies to pay private insurance plans. That just siphons off needed
resources. A state administered plan would be more accountable than a national
plan but all states should do something. This is not an area best served by a
laissez faire approach.
Duh! Who woulda thunk that? Its been Obamas dream, and that of his mentors, to
have a single payer system. socialism good, capitalism bad, you know. their
plan is to just nudge us fools in the direction they want us to go.
Capitalism is the unequal distribution of health care.......Socialism is the
equal distribution of misery. I have tweaked Churchhill for a moment.
STILL waiting on the Republican plan, or is it "get rid of Medicare"?
@David and conservative scientist. Be what you are politically, but I urge you
to use your mind to think outside of party line ideas that induce all things
negative as the opposition's fault. Healthcare in our country has
been building it's foundation as a capitalist enterprise since WWII. That might
be something that you justify, and we could argue validations relative to
specifics, but I doubt I could change your minds with my 200 words that the
DESNEWS provides.All of that said, our healthcare is well behind
other civilized, and even semi-civilized nations. Somehow I think that David and
conservative scientist would consider me unpatriotic for using my free speech to
question anything that is a staple in the USA that can or even can't be traced
through a single party.
Should have gone "single payer" in the first place.
@conservative scientist"Private businesses planning on doing
something other than Obama thought they would do? Who would have ever
thought?"*******Actually, this is exactly what Obama
thought they would do... more people off employer sponsored insurance and in
need of government health care is precisely what Obama wanted.
So the government, through Obama's healthcare law, will make the health coverage
of Americans worse than before, while significantly increasing taxes to cover
this Obamanation we call Obamacare.
Private businesses planning on doing something other than Obama thought they
would do? Who would have ever thought?