Trevvor,One of my points to you is that you don't know what the
school is doing behind the scenes to take care of the situation. Most of us
don't until way after the fact. It is the same way at BYU in many cases. Most
of the details are taken care of behind the scenes and we have no idea how
severely a kid was punished. You want to paint everyone with the same brush a
dole out the same punishment disregarding the individual circumstances.The one kid I think you are right about is the one who held some other kids at
gun point. That kids should never have gotten a scholarship. Shreeve's
scholarship was revoked and he ended up sitting out what should have been his
freshman season while he earned his scholarship back. Fotu is still on
probation and none of us know for sure if or when he might get back to the team.
So all of your ranting about kids at the U being out of control comes down to
one kid who messed up as a teenager and never should have been offered a
Trevvor,You are wrong about us not agreeing. I agree punishments
should be severe. Where we disagree is that you see what happens at the U and
other schools through your BYU blinders that will only let you see what you want
to see. Here's a quote from your second comment: "My point is
that he got a slap on the wrist, just like the dui kid will get, but he'll be on
the field when he is needed. My point is that certain schools have
value and others, well...."So that doesn't mean you expect
other schools to have the same values as BYU? BYU and Army are the only schools
you have mentioned that you believe have values. Then in your first reply to me
you say:"BYU said "No this kid will not play for us to
show it's real punishment." What does sitting on the bench have to do with
anything? Sitting on the bench is hardly the same as playing." So you are
holding BYU as your example of what other schools should do.
MormonUte,We're never going to agree and that's fine. But I never
said Utah has to or should have the same rules as BYU. I'd love for you to show
me where I insinuated that. Again you're getting bent out of shape over things
I never said. I've simply said that those who commit serious
crimes(such as DUI's or robbing people at gunpoint) should have serious
punishments. Letting a kid join a program a few months after he robbed 2 people
at gunpoint is not a serious punishment. It is hiding behind the "give him
a second chance" excuse.I hope I am wrong with Fotu and that he
doensn't play in the coming year. Not because I don't believe is second
chances. But because I believe second chances are given after a serious
punishment is given. Example: I hope Davies can come back next year.
I would say missing the MWC and NCAA tournaments are a serious punishment. Missing spring ball is not a serious punishment for driving the wrong
way and putting people's lives in danger. Again, I hope I am wrong.
Trevvor,I appologize for calling you a liar. You were not just
stating it as your belief, but acted as though it was fact that Fotu will be
back in the fall. You are right that the ultimate goal is to play in games, but
by missing all of spring ball when new coaches are bringing in new schemes and
players are already jockeying for position his position on the team will be
severely impacted. And that's only if he is back in the fall, which I don't
believe he will be. As a public institution, the U cannot have the same rules
BYU does. That is not the coach's, fan's or player's fault. Your comments
indicate you are condemning the institution and everyone associated with it when
your real complaint is against society as a whole.
TrevvorI am also frustrated by criminal activity and people getting
away with it, and I appreciate your apology. I tend to let people like
Whittingham, Bronco and Dave Rose handle each situation as they see fit because
I trust their judgement and they are privy to more of the facts than we are
(although I waffle a bit on Bronco because I don't trust him as much as I do
Rose and Whit)My purpose for bringing up Fotu's injury isnt' to
suggest leniency, but to suggest that every case is different. Fotu made a
mistake, but what if has a future playing football? Sitting out a year would
effectively kill that opportunity (because that would be 2 years removed from
football). Should that be the price he has to pay for his DUI? I don't know,
but I'm glad it's not my call. I know honor code and LDS church
policy is bases each case on its merits. Whit tries to do the same thing. It
obviously isn't done perfectly because you imperfect individuals making
judgements, but for the most part I think both schools do a pretty good job.
Mormon Ute,Ok that's fine you may have heard something. Still
pretty low of you to call me a liar for simply stating my belief that Fotu will
be back on the field when Coach Whittingham's comments certainly leave that open
as a possibility, don't U think?But yes I maintain that for
something as serious as a DUI I hope the kid misses some GAMES. After all -
he's on the team for the games, not for the spring ball.
Trevorr, to be fair, I have to agree with a lot of what you say. I think
that DUI is a serious crime and frankly, I don't care what consequences come the
way of Nai Fotu. Same with the kid who robbed people at gunpoint. (in that
kid's case, I would be surprised if he lasts up at the U.)I am in
favor of earned second chances. If you show that you are willing to go the
extra mile, you should be given a second chance. Im not talking about killers,
rapists, pedos etc. etc. If a player shows that they are willing to do the
right things, I think its great when they are able to come back.
pocyUte,I do find it disappointing you seem to suggest that Fotu's
ACL tears or his senior year of school should come into play in the leniency of
his punishment, because that is the very thing I have a hard time with.How it will impact the football team OR HIS football career in my mind should
have no bearing on the decision.If someone does something serious
enough, who cares if he is a freshman or senior? Who cares if he was a starter
or a bench warmer? If the misstake merits a serious punishment, why
do you suggest that because he missed some time with ACL problems that anything
should change?P.S. I actually met Kyle Whittingham one time.
Believe it or not I have a friend currently on the U team and we had dinner with
him and Kyle and Kyle's whole family one night. Kyle seemed like a good guy and
I actually believe he is.
pocyUte, MormonUte, and Ben,I apologize for making this a byu/utah
thing. I should not have done that. My drive in this argument is that I despise
criminals(and please let's not bring in driving 5mph over speed limit).I love it when a BYU kid who has commit a crime gets punished severely. I
LOVED that Kyle Van Noy missed an entire year after he had a DUI. To be honest
I wish he had been put in jail a year.Similarly, I wish that Fotu
was in jail right now for his DUI.I think the Utah kid who robbed
two people at gunpoint should be in jail for 20 years(cry me a river that he was
in high school). I also take issue with the "give everybody a
second chance" excuse because so often it diminishes the seriousness of
what they did.A DUI or robbing someone at gunpoint is hardly a
little thing to be given a relative slap on the wrist and then a "welcome
for your second chance.
Trevvor,You are taking the Coach's immediate comments as being the
end of the whole thing. While I recognize the offenses committed are at a
totally different level, if we look at Brandon Davies' case we see something
similar. We still don't know how long he is suspended for. His suspension was
immediate as was Nai Fotu's, but the length of it has yet to be determined as
the investigation goes on.You are obviously assuming the just
because you didn't read it in the paper or see it on the news, it wasn't said by
anybody. As a Ute fan and season ticket holder, I get information from a
variety of sources that don't necessarily hit the public media. It is my
understanding through those sources that Fotu is done. One thing that certainly
is public knowledge is he is not participating in spring drills.
Now, TrevorIf you actually knew what you were talking about
regarding Utah, you would know that Utah pulled Keni Kaufusi's schollie after he
was involved in an incident at a Wendy's drive through. Keni is now playing at
Cal.You would know that after Marquis Wilson lost was dismissed from
the team and given a chance to walk on but ultimately did not meet the
reinstatement requirements.You would know that Mo Neal, a very
promising linebacker was dismissed from Utah last fall after a bar fight.You see, Trevor, before you start declaring the moral high road, I would
suggest you brush up on the facts.
No, TrevorMy point is that everyone deserves a chance to work their
way back. You insinuated that because Utah doesn't punish players exactly like
BYU they don't have values. Thanks for impugning my coach like that. That's the
part that I take issue with.So by your definition, if a player gets
caught for DUI he should have to sit out a whole year, and if he doesn't the
University has no values. So if, as part of Whittingham's reinstatement, Nai
Fotu (the Utah player who was busted for DUI, the fact that you don't know his
name tells me how much you really know about his punishment or the situation)
doesn't have to sit out a whole year (despite the fact that it's his senior year
and he has already red-shirted twice for blown ACL thus sitting out a whole
season would end his playing career) then he doesn't deserve to play or if he
does, Whit and the University of Utah have no values. But Bronco, who made Van
Noy sit out a year before his eligibility even started does.Continued (sorry for the parentheticals)
Trevorr,Kyle Whittingham has kicked many kids off of his team. Mo
Neal and Marquis wilson come to mind off hand. Probably others in his time at
Utah. To suggest that Utah is not being honorable in the way it handles the
situation is unfair to a guy like coach whit. In 2010, Mo Neal would have come
in handy. But he was gone. In 2009, Wilson could have been very helpful, but
again, thats not how Utah does things. To compare the way that Utah
does things to the way that BYU does them is an apples to oranges argument, and
frankly, you are really walking on shaky ground right now my friend. Kyle is
going to do everything he can to help these kids get their lives right. I trust
Sports Are Great,I too have great respect for BYU and their honor
code including the eforcement of it at great detrement to their team. Trevvor
and some other BYU fans have a history of putting down the U and it's athletes
with claims that we are light on punishment. What I was trying to point out
(and maybe I didn't do the best job) is that the U like BYU believes in second
chances. When a player breaks the rules they are suspended from the team
immediately and have to meet certain conditions to get back on the team. Shreve's problems took place before he even came to the U. His
scholarship was revoked and he had to earn it back by meeting certain conditions
and was only allowed to practice this spring after meeting them. Had he not
slipped up he would have been a backup in the fall. So he missed a whole
season. Fotu has been kicked off the team indefinitely. Trevvor asserts that
he will be back in the fall, but the word I hear from friends at the U is that
he is gone for good.
Trevorr sounds a little bitter his team didn't get the BCS invite.Thanks
for comparing our team to national powerhouses Auburn and Ohio State. Not sure
that Utes deserve that quite yet.
Mormon Ute,Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Whittinghams statment
was "Effective immediately, Nai Fotu has been suspended from our football
team until further notice." If his career was over wouldnt
Whittingham have used different word than "suspended" and "until
further notice""FYI the most recent DUI incident has been
said to be the end of that players career at the U."Oh really?
Who said that? Someone higher than Whittinghman I guess? You must be close to
the school president or something. I apologize if you know more than
Whittingham said. Who said it was the end of that player's career at
the U?Who is the liar?I agree the epitome of self
righteousness is calling someone a liar when you are wrong. Again -
please show me where "it has been said it is the end of the career"
for this guy. I would gladly apologize.
"Am I missing something? what is the problem? I wish him well."It's called making a mountain out of a molehill to prove a point.
Unfortunately one must turn a blind eye to you're own teams short commings to
Trevvor,The kids you refer to at the U committed their offenses in
the offseason and were suspended from participation with their respective teams
for a period of time. Had the offenses occurred during the season, as Davies'
apparently did, they would have missed playing time. Contrary to impression you
are trying to give, the U has kicked kids off their teams permanently for
violating team rules. FYI the most recent DUI incident has been said to be the
end of that players career at the U. Your bias against the U is causing you to
lie and spread false information to try to pump up yourself and your school.Self righteous? Boy, that certainly is the pot calling the kettle
black. Everyone knows BYU has higher standards. Every student who goes there
represents the Church so a higher standard is expected. The epitome of self
righteousness is to lie in an effort to put somebody down and make them seem
lower than yourself.Brandon Davies suffered real punishment and so
do players who break the rules at the U.
pocyUte,Yes lets talk Kyle Van Noy. The kid was arrested before he
was at BYU and guess what? Bronco had him sit out an ENTIRE SEASON, not spring
ball. Are you suggesting that your DUI kid will miss the entire
season? You must be since you wanted to compare them.
@Mormon Ute: I have to be honest I have been very impressed(as a Runnin Rebel)
with your posts on most articles as you seem gracious and kind to both sides.
There aren't many from either side in Utah with as much respect that you usually
show. I have to say though I think your analogy is extremely weak.
Even though BYU's rules are silly sometimes, it is their rule and breaking the
"honor code" is hardly comparable to an assault charge or driving
under the influence. BYU's guy broke no laws and BYU still held him out, at the
most important time of season. He wasn't forced to run some stairs or sit just
a single game. Even if people disagree with their rules including me, it was
admirable to take a serious stance.I don't know much about Shreve,
but I had a cousin killed by a drunk driver so Fotu's arrest hit home to me. I
hope a serious punishment(missing GAMES) is given. To me driving while drunk
merits a year in jail. Not exactly the same as breaking the honor code. And
that kid was still punished
TrevorPlease explain Kyle Van Noy then.Don't give me
your holier than thou garbage. These are human beings, and as such generally
deserve a second chance.
I may be wrong but to my knowledge there were no "assault charges" as
was stated in the first comment. An incident occured, a punichment was given and
all expectations to redeem his standing have been met. Am I missing something?
what is the problem? I wish him well.
Sorry Mormon Ute, you're way off on several issues. If you want to compare to
Davies, the kid DIDN'T PLAY right? Shreve, the DUI kid, and let's not forget
the kid that robbed several people at gunpoint(remember that one)? are all going
to PLAY for the U. My whole point is at what point should a
university say "No, this kid will not play for us as a serious
punishment" instead of giving him a slap on the wrist.I would
call making a kid miss the entire conference and NCAA tournament a serious
punishment, would U?BYU said "No this kid will not play for us
to show it's real punishment." What does sitting on the bench have to do
with anything? Sitting on the bench is hardly the same as playing. I'm simply curious what issue would be serious enough to not let the kid play?
Assault? Apparently not.DUI? We'll see but I doubt
it, he'll be back.Rob at gunpoint: Nope - that kid was accepted.
Your weak attempt at the self rigtheous card fell painfully short on
Trevvor,So let me get this straight, it's okay for BYU to let a
suspended player travel with the team and sit on the bench, because that is
showing compassion and helping the kid overcome his troubles. But when athletes
at the U are suspended and then do what is required of them to earn their way
back, it's not appropriate and you think it's just a slap on the wrist. Give me
a break and take your double standard somewhere else.
"way to trash on an awesome and value-driven institution like Army
though"Oh my I see my mistake, I appologize Army for every
associating BYU with your institution, my bad!
crumson: did I say he had a question about the dui kid? My point was clear, but
I know that reading 101 is an elective at the hill. My point is that he got a
slap on the wrist, just like the dui kid will get, but he'll be on the field
when he is needed. My point is that certain schools have value and
others, well....Even though you hate byu, way to trash on an awesome
and value-driven institution like Army though. That wasy classy.
Trevvor, did he have a question about the "DUI kid"? I don't beleive
he did so what's your point? I'll take rolling with Auburn and Ohio state over
BYU and Army anyday.
MaxieShreve was given a criteria which he had to fulfill in order to
get his schollie back. He did what was required of him, and entered school in
January. Yes, he is on scholarship.
UgottaloveMaxie: the DUI kid will be back on the team by game 1 too after his
"punishment" of not having to be in spring practices. It's just how
some programs roll. Auburn, Ohio State, utah....
Does Davis have his scholarship back" This seems to be confusing.
Shreve has his scholarship back? I remember spring of last year he lost his
scholarship because of his assault charges on his high school coach. So did he
red-shirt at a community college or what? does he have his scholarship back?
this seems to be confusing.