Watch out coach. If you beat Boylen too bad he will call time out won't shake
Duckhunter, yes, you are right. It is none of our business and only the Lord
can judge anyone. That is why I quoted the Lord's Prophet who said it is every
young man's priesthood duty and obligation to serve a mission. That's not me
making any judgement. That's the Lord's Prophet leaving no doubt about what the
Lord expects. There is no way in this world a young man can get
what he passed up by not serving a mission. Yes, he may get to the temple.
Yes, he may serve in leadership positions. But it will all take more time and
be tempered by what he missed by not serving. What President Monson
is conveying is that he understands the sacrifice is great, but there is no
excuse good enough for not preparing yourself to go and then doing it. If you
don't want the obligation, don't accept the priesthood.
That is not the case. There is a young man in my ward who has elected not to go
on a mission. He is 19 and he just went to the temple. The truth is you guys do
not know the totality of everyone elses situation. You think that there is a one
size fits all way of doing things, which is common in Mormon culture, but the
truth is there isn't. There are alot of myths and outright
falsehoods that are perpetuated in Mormon culture that have absolutely no basis
in doctrine. This is one of those myths. I have heard it said that if a man
doesn't go on a mission he cannot attain the Celestial Kingdom. That is false. I
have heard it said the if a man doesn't serve a mission he cannot ever be in a
position of authority. False again.But none of that is even the
point. What most of you aren't getting is that it simply isn't any of your
business if a young man serves a mission or not. It doesn't matter if he is
highly visible or anonymous. It just isn't your business.
I couldn't include this quote in my earlier post, because I had too many words.
This is the most authoritative statement on the matter I know of. President
Thomas S. Monson, November 2010 Ensign, "Missionary service is a priesthood
duty - and obligation the Lord expects of us who have been given so very
Duckhunter, you said, "Not serving one does not disqualify a man from
anything at all that the church has to offer. It is a personal choice and one
that should frankly be above second guessing by holier than thou individuals who
want to cast judgement on others"I know you mean well and are
sincere in what you believe, but I have some experience with this. If a young
man turns 19 and decides not to serve a mission he will have some priviledges
delayed. Men over the age of 18 are not given temple recommends unless they are
either leaving on a mission or getting married in the temple. In many cases,
those who don't serve missions have to wait until their mid-20's for a temple
recommend unless they get married in the temple. Why is this? Because every
prophet since Spencer W. Kimball has declared that serving a mission is a
Priesthood obligation. If you take the priesthood upon yourself, but choose not
to serve a mission, you have shirked your responsibility and blessings are
I agree with that UU32, and as long as you focus on the pstive of service then I
will agree with you and back you. But when you make judgement on young men that
choose not to you are going to far. In my mind it is a very simple
thing to show this young man why serving is better than not. But you cross a
line when you comdemn those that choose not to do it. If he asks "well what
about this guy" or "what about that guy" the only thing to say to
him is "I do not know the details of his situation but I can tell you what
I know about missionary service". That is simple. It is not fair to place
responsibility for the personal decision of one person on another person simply
because they are well known.
I know it is a personal choice, but it is also a commandment (just like home
teaching, personal prayer, magnifying callings, etc.) Ommission does not keep us
from the temple necessarily, but it does withold blessings. Just for
the record, I think the LDS Utes that skip a mission are not obeying the prophet
either. Same with the LDS Trojans or the LDS Aggies or the LDS Wolverines.
School affiliation doesn't matter. BYU players are (fairly or not) under a
microscope on this matter. As a personal choice I agree it is completely and
utterly up to the young man. But to circle back to the start of
this - it sure is nice for me to be able to point to Jackson Emery and say -
look at how great he has done after his mission - to the young BYU fan who is
struggling with the decision to serve. This is not intended as a rip at all - it
started as acompliment to Jackson Emery and the others who followed the prophets
words and are a blessing to the youth who look up to them as examples.
Once again not going on a mission is not a sin. If you don't pay your tithing,
if you do not uphold the word of wisdom, if you do not attend you meetings, then
the church takes privileges away from you. Not doing those things is a sin.If a man chooses not to go on a mission, but is otherwise righteous,
then no church privilege is witheld. None. Despite those quotes that
is a fact and it is a personal choice to do it or not do it. Sure those that
choose not to go may regret it down the line. What they will miss out on are the
blessings that come from serving a mission. But there is no requirement to do
it. It is not a sin to not do it. There is no punishment for not doing it. Quit trying to make it out as if there is simply so you can criticize
young men that play for a school other than the one you support.It
is also none of your business.
(continued)...ended up NOT entering the mission field. Athletes for
whom most of us (including myself, definitely) have the GREATEST OF
RESPECT...i.e., Steve Young, Danny Ainge, etc. I've heard almost every one of
them indicate in public meetings that in looking back, they wish they had chosen
to go on a mission when they were younger and had the chance. Good men, all.Just a few thoughts I felt to add since the topic was brought up and is
being read by many.
I feel perhaps it might be helpful to add one more quote, perhaps particularly
for those who have indicated their impression that (for young men who are LDS),
serving a mission is nothing more than a personal decision. Actually, it is.
But so is paying tithing, using profanity, keeping the Sabbath Day holy, etc.So here's something for those who have wondered about this to consider,
so they can then decide for themselves.In an address to Seminary and
Institute personnel in 1975, President Spencer W. Kimball stated that: "A
mission is not a casual thing. It is NOT an 'alternative program' of the
Church. Neither is a mission a matter of choice any more than tithing is a
choice, any more than the Word of Wisdom is a choice. Every normal young man is
as much obligated to go on a mission as he is to pay his tithing, attend his
meetings, keep the Sabbath Day holy, and keep his life spotless and clean. Can
you accept that." End of quote.The other thing that
comes to mind are the feelings expressed by some of our most outstanding LDS
athletes who for various reasons (continued next...)
And President Thomas S. Monson said in the last general conference: "First,
to young men of the Aaronic Priesthood and to you young men who are becoming
elders: I repeat what prophets have long taughtthat every worthy, able young man
should prepare to serve a mission. Missionary service is a priesthood dutyan
obligation the Lord expects of us who have been given so very much."
President Gordon B. Hinckley has said: "I say what has been said before,
that missionary work is essentially a priesthood responsibility. As such, our
young men must carry the major burden. This is their responsibility and their
obligation" ("Some Thoughts on Temples, Retention of Converts, and
Missionary Service," ENSIGN, Nov. 1997, 52).
President Howard W. Hunter noted: "Earlier prophets have taught that every
able, worthy young man should serve a full-time mission. I emphasize this need
today" ("Follow the Son of God," ENSIGN, Nov. 1994, 88).
President Spencer W. Kimball said:The question is frequently asked:
Should every young man fill a mission? And the answer has been given by the
Lord. It is Yes. Every young man should fill a mission. Every man
should also pay his tithing. Every man should observe the Sabbath. Every man
should attend his meetings. Every man should marry in the temple (When the World
Will Be Converted, Ensign, Oct. 1974, p. 8).Not my words, but I have
a testimony of the truthfulness.
@uu32Asking that every young man serve a mission is not the
samething as commanding it. It is not a "commandment". It is not
"required". I personally think they all should serve and
your stupid little dig about putting BYU athletics above missions was exaclty as
stupid as it sounded. But it is not a sin to not serve one. It doesn't require
repentance or penance. Not serving one does not disqualify a man from anything
at all that the church has to offer. It is a personal choice and one that should
frankly be above second guessing by holier than thou individuals who want to
cast judgement on others.I actually believe in free agency and
accountability and don't think it is up to me to judge someone else for making
that decision one way or the other. It has nothing to do with athletics at all.
If someone chooses to serve then I congratulate them and wish them well. If they
choose not to serve then I respect their decision for the deeply personal one
that it is and give them the respect that they have prayed about it and know
what is best for them.
Dave Rose is a great coach and a "righteous dude" (sorry, just watched
Ferris Beuller the other day). Nothing but respect for coach Rose
and what he has done at byU.
Never has a general authority stated that every young man in the church should
prepare for and attend BYU. Yet every generation since President Kimball has
heard the statement that every young man who accepts the priesthood should
prepare to serve a mission. So dont insinuate that BYU athletics is more
important to the Church than the missionary program. You need to read Vai
Sikahemas blog on the Deseret News web site about athletes serving missions. In
it he states that no athlete has ever been granted an exception from serving a
mission. That goes for those athletes attending Utah, Utah State, BYU or
Cummard served a mission in 2004. He returned early, but he began playing at
BYU post mission.
AZnewser -- totally agree. Thanks.
spelling error --- principle -- sorry bout that.
Please folks, one's religion is a personal item. Let's keep it that way.
"Spectatum proboscus." Mind your own nose.
Is Davies even old enough to go on a mission yet? He was 17 last year. Let's
not be making decisions for him he may not yet have made himself.
From my experience, when choosing to serve a mission or not, a multitude of
things influence a young man. The example of famous LDS athletes has some
bearing, but little influence in comparison to the gentle influence of the
Spirit, which is often introduced through the patient teachings of their mothers
or humble men around campfires
. . . and the lives of those your serve. This is not a BYU or Utah or Utah State
issue. It is an eternal principal. Put Heavenly Father and his work first. Not meant at all to be a rip on BYU. Again, I went to BYU, I support
BYU. I am a Utah fan, but I promise I am not out to trash BYU fans. Don't get so
defensive about your loyalty to BYU sports that you miss the mission of the
Coach Rose is a great Coach and the improving records each year speak volumes to
his ability. What I like about Coach Rose is his fast pace still of play.
Because of Coaches philosophy this has been a very fun team to watch over the
past few years. It is a very fun style of basketball to watch. That being said
Coach still has some improvement to do in the post season preparing his team for
a deep run in the NCAA tournament. I hope this year is the year they can go far
as a team and the coaching staff can make the proper adjustments. Either way
Jimmer time has been great to watch.
Duckhunter - The young man that was asking me the questions was a BYU fan. Thus
the BYU examples he brought up. That is why I turned to Jackson Emery, Vai
Sikahema, and Shawn Bradley as a good example instead of David Foster or Alex
Jensen or Morgan Scalley. Of course there are examples of not serving a mission
at all schools. I was trying to point out the good examples to him.Serving a mission as a "worthy young man" is something we have been
asked to do by the prophet. He doesn't qualify that and say "unless you are
a great athlete." I believe the word "every" means all worthy
young men. When I'm trying to help the young men in my ward see that
serving a mission is more than a good idea but a commandment to all worthy young
men, and they bring up examples of those who haven't served (whether Utah or BYU
or Utah State or Notre Dame or USC or Weber State or Salt Lake Community
College) it doesn't matter what school they go to - the message is always the
same. Serving a mission will bless your life.
@UU32Of course we hear from ute fans all the time how an athlete can
get the same experience at utah that he gets at BYU because of the LDS institute
there. So if a player is LDS, regardless of which school he attends, then
shouldn't he be the same example you want to have only apply to BYU athletes?
Why do LDS utah players get a pass on that?Are you bringing up those
LDS utes that forgo missions as well? Or are you simply looking to make an
example of the ones that attend BYU?Frankly a mission is a
completely personal choice. It is not a pre-requisite for atteding BYU, for
holding church callings including leadership callings, for getting into heaven,
for attending the temple, or for any other thing the church has to offer an
individual.Yes serving one is a great thing but not serving one is
not a disqualification from celestialdom. Honestly those who judge those who
choose not to serve a mission are much more obvious in their failings than those
that don't serve. Judge not lest ye be judged.
@UU32,Although your comments are typical of Utah fans who love to
point out shortcomings and most likely a judgemental jab at BYU athletes, I'll
give you the benefit of the doubt and just remind you that serving a mission is
not a pre-requisite to attend BYU.Thank you for pointing out the few
who do not serve missions, but I'd direct the young man in your ward to the LONG
list of BYU athletes who have served missions.Then, I'd remind him
of your mission (I'm assuming you served one!?!). Certainly you would cast
dispersions if you haven't lived the standard yourself.
No, I am not implying that he is making the decisions for his players. That is
my point! He doesn't make their decisions for them, and Dick said that "The
Rose formula has been simple: Build a foundation built on four-year LDS players
who didn't take mission breaks, sprinkle in LDS players who leave and return
from LDS missions". When he says he has a formula, it sounds as if there is
some mathematical equation that he can plug variables into. These young men are
not variables. I believe to a certain extent he has been very fortunate, that he
hasn't had more injuries and use of agency that could weaken his team. I think Dave Rose is a great coach! Just don't deify him. He is juggling, not
formulizing, and he has had some good fortune, call it blessed, whatever.
I think Coach Rose has been the best--his numbers prove it!! Now, if only the
players will do their part each and every game. Here's my take on the
numbers:PossibleReality (apprx)Player NamePointsFredette30+32Emery16+10Davies14+12Hartsock10+ 6Abouo10+ 7Collingsworth10+ 8Rogers 8+ 6Anderson 4+ 2Martineau 2+ 0Zylstra 4+ 0Magnassun 6+ 3______11486Current Ave game is: 83.4
With the proper seed and a little luck BYU could make a run to the elite 8 this
year but not past that unless they get a lot of luck. If they get a 2 seed they
would play a 14 and then the winner of the 7 - 10 game after which they probably
get a 3 or a 6. They could win that one to get into the elite 8 but then they
face a number one seed, barring upsets (which happen quite regularly)to get into
the final four. The key is to be the hot team in the tournament like Butler was
last year. If you aren't hitting your stride in March you are out in the first
or second round.
The MWC is one of the hardest conferences to win on the road period. It is very
diverse in location, fan base and altitude. I can't remember any team running
the table in the MWC.
Anonymous InfinityIt would also be interesting to see how Duke,
Kentucky, Kansas, Georgetown and some of the other storied programs would do
playing a complete MWC schedule.I'm sure they'd do very well, but do
you really think they'd go undefeated every year playing in the Pit, the
Marriott Center, the Thomas & Mack, and Viejas Arena?Would
undefeated Ohio State be undefeated this year playing in the MWC?Fortunately in basketball, unlike football, even teams not in the "more
storied conferences" get an opportunity to prove themselves on the big
One of the young men in my ward asked me if Jimmer served a mission, then he
asked me is Davies served a mission, then asked me if Jake Heaps served a
mission. (All loaeded questions for a kid who is 50/50 on serving a mission).
Tough conversation followed. He really looks up to BYU athletes. I turned the
conversation to Jackson Emery. Always helps to have a good example to turn to.
Obviously Coach Rose and others in the program involved in recruiting have some
knowledge about the recruits as to what their intentions are about
missions...make no mistake about it. You can't tell me players coming into the
program don't state their intentions upfront. Rose has done well as have other
coaches by managing the cards dealt to them regarding university requirements
and standards. Then there is the issue of all teams that pile up victories at
the beginning of the season by playing a bunch of irrelevant teams with maybe
one or two possibly marginal teams. But this does not justify the ranking they
have at the present time. This will change as the season winds down, and the
playoffs begin. Coach Rose is to be commended for what he is doing, but let us
keep things in perspective about how good this team is until we get to the end
of the season. It would be interesting to see what BYU could do if they played
in the Big East, Big 10/11/12, SEC, ACC and some of the more storied conferences
in the east. Regardless of the convoluted rankings, BYU can be commended.
bkcharles-It would appear that your comments imply he makes the
mission service decision for the players. No, but Rose has to manage around the
decisions of his LDS players regarding missions.
Michael Loyd has been missed, but the deeper issue has been depth in the
frontcourt, with the injury to Collinsworth.I am pleased to hear
that Kyle is going on his mission. Good for him.
RockOn--you took the words right out of my mouth. That was my exact thought when
I read the article. I believe he would make a wonderful coach!@USAlover--Mike is playing at Mid-Western State Univ. (MSU) in Wichita Falls,
TX (sorry for the spelling)Thanks Coach Rose for all your hard work.
You are a great coach AND person. A guy all the players and fans can look up to.
Thanks Dick for a great article. Coach Rose has won at every level. What he
has done at BYU to be consistently in the tournament and competitive for a
conference championship is amazing.
BYU is lucky to have Coach Rose. BYU has some build in advantages and some
built in disadvantages when it comes to winning. We often seem to always be
just 1 or 2 players away from a final four. It is difficult to manage, but he
is doing quite well. He is correct to consider the character of the players
because that makes a good organization in industry as well as basketball.
By-the-way, where did Mike Loyd end up? Is he playing somewhere?Having Mike Loyd would probably be a huge asset right now.
Does anyone else think Jackson Emery sounds like a future D-1 coach?
The player "carousel" exists at most D1 schools, but in different
ways. Top tier college programs have to deal with players leaving after their
freshman and sophomore years for the NBA. Kentucky had FIVE players from last
year's roster go in the first round of the NBA draft! All of them
underclassmen! If BYU can get quality athletes to commit to four
year college careers, they can be very competitive.Dave Rose is not
only a very good coach, he's like-able and courageous. He's very easy to cheer
for..The program's next step is to have success in March. Until
then, the respect level will remain moderate to good.
Dave Rose is simply the best coach at BYU; probably in the mountain west
conference - for any sport! Give the BYU constraints (honor code,
missionaries, required classroom attendance, etc.) to any other coach in America
and they would not take it. If Rose wins 20 games next year, then he'll become
a legend in my mind, given that we'll probably be playing with freshman gaurds.
snowflake---He (Rose) didn't; and he's (Harmon) not.
Of course coach Roses can't and doesn't decide who goes on missions or who
stays, which adds to the incredible juggling act he has to perform. And I agree
with Harmon that he's done that juggling act quite well.What a
pleasure Jackson Emery has been on and off the court. As the interviewee,
Jackson was insightful, articulate and very relevant, so unlike the
cliche-ridden drivel that comes out of too many athletes these days. Jackson,
you take a back seat to no one in my book. Thank you for your class act and an
inspiring career at BYU.
Coach Rose has a hard job. It gives me a headache just thinking about all those
options Jackson Emery came up with at the end of the article. Emery
and the team have the right attitude. Do your best with what you have and don't
worry about what you don't have. It's hard for us fans to not think about the
what ifs but I'm glad the players aren't thinking about it.
I am sorry Dick, but Dave Rose may be a great coach, but I am pretty sure that
he doesn't or can't control whether his LDS players go on missions or not. He
has had some good luck. If he persuaded Jimmer and Davies not to go on missions,
then he will be held responsible rather than be given credit. Please don't start
attributing things to him that he isn't responsible for!