Doug Robinson: Spare us all the 'research school' lines

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  • Cougars --Best Little Brothers
    July 5, 2010 5:23 p.m.

    I must say I am very impressed with all the research and data analysis.
    After all that were said and done, Utah Utes will be in a major conference with BCS AQ status because it's a BCS/major material.

    BYU is still in a mid-major conference, because it is one.

    Let's all move on to discuss the football season and move past the Pac-10 invitation for Utah and/or the lack of Big-12 invitation for BYU.

  • Naval Vet
    July 5, 2010 12:01 p.m.


    "If it was about competition it would have been BYU all the way."

    Maybe if it was about the competitiveness in Track & Field it would have been ybU all the way, but everybody knows that it's Football that drives the engine that is college sports. In Football, the Utes own the overall head-to-head series vs. the "why?", the Utes have a better postseason record than the "why?", and the Utes have 2 BCS Bowl trophies, whereas the "why?" never even qualified for an invitation.

    I think "competitively" the Pac-10 wanted someone who could help bolster their football conference's strength of schedule. ybU wouldn't be able to do that. It was Utah all the way.

    It's going to be difficult to break down the barriers set up by the BCS when zoobies THEMSELVES continue to argue its case for them. There has been no other MWC team to have won more conference championships in Football than Utah. If we go the way of the Arizona schools as whYners are so prone to project, it only validates the fact that ybU concurs with the BCS that MWC teams aren't worthy of inclusion.

  • Missouriflyer
    July 5, 2010 11:34 a.m.

    Take it from a Big 12 constituant it is all about $$$$$$. BYU is always rated substantially higher academically than UT, draws larger road crowds and has a high NATIONAL TV audience. What does the PAC 10 want? Utah? They don't want competition they want TV's. If it was about competition it would have been BYU all the way. Oh for all you Utah whiners go back in history in regards to conference championships in all sports and Utah is always an also ran in pure numbers. If Utah is better than .500 in football or basketball in the first 5 years the Omaha Steaks are on me! Remember Arizona and ASU both left great numbers in the WAC for the PAC 10 and what have you heard from them since? Conferences are all about total TV sets available and that is it!!!! If it was about research or competition then there would be super conferences of just the elite performers. Wake up UT and BYU folks and think outside Utah for a change.

  • Carson
    July 5, 2010 12:14 a.m.

    I really believe that Utah will pick up the majority of BYU's LDS fans around the Pac12.

  • me not U
    July 4, 2010 3:30 p.m.

    This is a commentary! Go BYU haters. Yell scream and curse. That is what you do best. It is sad to see the U leave, sorta. Now when BYU goes 11-2 and the U 6-6 you will still Yell and scream about BYU being "weak"; it will not make a difference. BYU is still the place to get a great education for a mormom. It isn't Notre Dame. It isn't Standford. But thank God it isn't the "U".

  • Rock Of The Marne
    July 4, 2010 11:34 a.m.

    Honestly Y fans who like to chose certain years or time periods to prove that they are superior to the Utes it is biased, biased. Utah fans could do the same thing to prove they are the best. The only true way to look at it is over the entire period of head to head matchups in football and basketball. In Football Utah is up on by 20 or so games so that speaks for itself. In round ball it is pretty much even head to head though the Utes post season success are far more impressive (NCAA and NIT Championships) and many more sweet sixteen and above appearances. BYU is a great school and has had great teams, no doubting that, but to say that Utah is in any way inferior is just bull as the t head to head and post season records prove otherwise. I honestly at some point hope fans of both schools can recognize that both schools have done great things on and off the court as this constant cutting of each other really gets lame after awhile.

  • Otis Spurlock
    July 4, 2010 10:02 a.m.

    Utah going to a BCS Bowl in 2004 and BYU never going to a BCS Bowl, awesome!

    Utah going to a BCS Bowl in 2008 and BYU never going to a BCS Bowl, sweet!

    Utah being invited to the PAC 12 and BYU being stuck in the MWC, PRICELESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  • I say this
    July 3, 2010 3:28 p.m.

    Now that Utah is in the PAC-12 I can't wait to see all of that "research" coming out of Salt Lake. Probably about as much as we have seen in Boulder, Pulman, Tempe...etc, I'm glad Utah is gone... not because they were superior in every sport but because their arrogance was sickening.

  • phramahaphil
    July 3, 2010 10:03 a.m.

    I will always love BYU fans and their blissful ignorance of reality. The point of my posts are that the PAC-10 says they chose Utah because it is viewed as more of a research oriented institution than BYU -- this is a fact, Utah is a far more research oriented institution than BYU. Doug Robinson pitifully tries to discredit this and even fans the "we're a persecuted Mormon school" flame that burns so brightly in tin foil wearing Utah County.

    I never said BYU isn't a great university. However, they don't hold a candle to Utah when it comes to research and new innovations.

  • SoCalUtahFan
    July 3, 2010 9:17 a.m.

    still crack me up with all the silly "national rankings", etc...

    Guys, when it comes to down to it, final/current ranking:

    Major/AQ: Utah
    Mid-Major/Non-AQ: BYU

  • Utah'95
    July 3, 2010 9:10 a.m.

    MUSSing with U,

    Just checking. With the recent Colorado and Utah move, I anticipated that we'd by talking about the Buffs and not the Rams.

  • MUSSing with U
    July 3, 2010 8:45 a.m.

    "You are aware that the Univeristy of Colorado and Colorado State are two different schools, aren't you?"

    Of course. I used to live in Colorado, 15 minutes from the Colorado State campus and less than an hour from the University of Colorado.

    I included Colorado State because I thought it was interesting that the Rams were listed just below the Utes in the rankings.

  • TDS Fan
    July 3, 2010 8:30 a.m.

    I used to enjoy singing the "Rise and shout" song. It's tough now because it reminds me of being left "out." "Rise and shout, we cougars really are out."

  • Utah'95
    July 3, 2010 5:52 a.m.

    MUSSing with U,

    You are aware that the Univeristy of Colorado and Colorado State are two different schools, aren't you?

    You're right - Ooops!

  • Naval Vet
    July 3, 2010 5:41 a.m.

    Big Hapa:

    "Utah was not the first program to be invited to the new PAC 12 but it was the last..."

    Colorado received the first invitation. Do you believe that the Pac-10 preferred Colorado to Texas? The Utes might have received the last invitation, but that does not insinuate they were viewed as the school of least value. That would have been Oklahoma St.

  • Utah'95
    July 3, 2010 2:26 a.m.

    "BYU is practically a lock for being invited to the Big 12......"

    That sounds a lot like what the BYU Faithful USED to say about the Pac 10. For at least two decades, BYU fans claimed that when the Pac 10 decided to expand, they would grab the Cougars.

    For what it's worth, I believe BYU would be a great addition to the Big 12. But like the Pac 10 situation, it's their club, and they (not us) get to decide who to invite.

    "Utah fans would cease to exist without having BYU to compare themselves to."

    Wow, check out the ego on that guy!

    I hope BYU doesn't close its doors, otherwise I, as a Utah fan, will "cease to exist!"

  • Uteology
    July 3, 2010 2:05 a.m.

    Yep right place right time, some times it's better to be lucky then good.


    Read the article it wasn't about 1984.

  • Solomon the Wise
    July 3, 2010 1:52 a.m.

    Washington Monthly's 2009 national university college rankings:

    Bachelor's to PhD Rank
    BYU 37
    Utah 77


    It's interesting how selective Utah fans are with their rankings. I'm sure they would have no problem accepting these rankings from U.S. News, also included in the same Wikipedia posting from which phramahaphil was so quick to cut and paste:

    In 2009, U.S. News & World Report ranked the university's medical school 51st in the nation for medical research.

    The S.J. Quinney College of Law... was ranked 42nd in the nation by U.S. News.

    In 2009, the university's College of Engineering graduate program was ranked 62nd in the nation by U.S. News.

    The university's School of Computing, part of the College of Engineering, was ranked 39th in the nation [by U.S. News].

    All rankings by the "highly unreliable", according to Utah fans, U.S News.

    Of course, we all know the real reason they have a problem with U.S. News:

    Best Colleges 2010

    National Universities Rankings

    Tier 1 Ranking

    Brigham Young University - 71

    University of Utah - 126

  • Big Hapa
    July 3, 2010 12:46 a.m.

    Good news for the Utes and all the fans that fallow the Red Utah Utes ! This will bring in terrific teams and the money associated with it will be very nice for the State school. However, Utah was not the first program to be invited to the new PAC 12 but it was the last one chosen, so there it is, the Utah program was in the right place at the right time.

    All of the soap box speech's about research and how Utah fit in the greater scheme of the PAC 12 is all BS {not bachelor of science} the league needed a 12th team so that the league could obtain an auto-bid for the BCS big end of the football season big dance.

    Yep right place right time, some times it's better to be lucky then good.

  • Don Timpson
    July 3, 2010 12:05 a.m.

    A perfect illustration of why the Zoo will never get serious consideration from a major association of schools--they just don't get it. Living in a world where the blind lead the blind, they don't understand the meaning of "research" or "academics" or "academic freedom."

    Keep living in your fantasy world, TDS. The Zoo is NOT Notre Dame. It is not Utah. It's not even Utah State.

  • UtahUtes1
    July 2, 2010 11:01 p.m.

    phramahaphil | 9:06 p.m. July 2, 2010

    BINGO! Well done!!

  • duckhouse
    July 2, 2010 9:49 p.m.

    I did not like the idea, that Utah can an invite without BYU. But, the more I have thought about it, the more I like it. The Pac-12 will get fed-up with BYU beating Utah and all their other teams, esp. being from the MWC, so it has only got to help BYU with an invite to another conference, or the MWC will gain respect and the conference will get an auto bid........Think of it.

  • phramahaphil
    July 2, 2010 9:06 p.m.

    Here is one more nail in Doug Robinson's coffin:

    "The university is classified as a research university with very high research activity by the Carnegie Foundation,[47] with research and training awards for 2007—2008 amounting to US$298,044,997.[3] The university's research expenditures were the 67th highest in the nation in the Center for Measuring University Performance's 2008 report. Additionally, the university was the 58th highest for federal research expenditures, 52nd for National Academy of Sciences membership, 50th for faculty awards, 51st for doctorates awarded, and 42nd for postdoctoral appointees.[48] For technology transfer, the university was responsible for the 2nd highest number of startups in both 2006 and 2007, just behind MIT."

    'nuff said?

  • Uteology
    July 2, 2010 7:21 p.m.

    Unless you are an expert on the subject what you put forth is debatable:
    Some higher education experts, like Kevin Carey of Education Sector, have argued that such rankings as the U.S. News and World Report's college rankings system is merely a list of criteria that mirrors the superficial characteristics of elite colleges and universities. According to Carey, "[The] U.S. News ranking system is deeply flawed. Instead of focusing on the fundamental issues of how well colleges and universities educate their students and how well they prepare them to be successful after college, the magazine's rankings are almost entirely a function of three factors: fame, wealth, and exclusivity.

    What we do know for a fact is BYU has been censored by AAUP for lack of eductional freedom.

  • Casper
    July 2, 2010 7:18 p.m.

    phramahaphil | 6:29 p.m. July 2, 2010

    Well done.

    I'll bet Doug Robinson is up for a promotion or at least a nice bonus for writing an article that generated this much interest. We should all be ashamed of ourselves for allowing him to play us like this.

    Let's all move on. BYU and Utah fans alike. A year from now we'll be in separate worlds...thank goodness for that!

  • phramahaphil
    July 2, 2010 7:03 p.m.

    oops, on the grammatical errors. However, as support for my arguement, I have never been educated at the University of Utah. I'm a SUU Thunderbird -- we have nothing worth discussing in Cedar City. Okay, we have Shakespeare.

  • phramahaphil
    July 2, 2010 6:29 p.m.

    I apologize for discrediting the lame source. If you would like to compare sources, google or wikipedia the following:

    Academic Rankings of World Universities
    Times Higher Education World University Rankings

    The former was already cited, and the latter ranked Utah and BYU as follows:

    Utah 259
    BYU 501-600

    Next google or wikipedia the following:

    US News and World Report America's Best Colleges
    The Washington Monthly's annual college and university rankings

    These are the two that ranked Utah lower, the former is criticized and even boycotted by universities like Stanford, St. John's College, and Alma College and the latter is pretty much viewed on the same scale as USN&WR.

    There is one more ranking -- Forbes:

    Utah 158
    BYU 249

    The point is Utah is a more research centric university. If the PAC-10 used this as part of the criteria to decide on the 12th invitee who is Doug Robinson cry foul or to insinuate "anti-Mormite" bigotry. Utah is far more of a research university than BYU will ever be -- not saying that BYU could compete with Utah but they have chosen not to focus on research. God bless'em for that.

  • Uteology
    July 2, 2010 6:12 p.m.

    scenic view|4:45 p.m. July 2, 2010

    I work in Dallas and guess what their local news talks about TCU and BYU was never mentioned. I think both teams should be taken in the Big 12 North as they fit the bible belt culture. ESPN Dallas talks about getting Arkansas.

  • Archie
    July 2, 2010 5:56 p.m.

    @scenic view | 4:56 p.m. July 2, 2010

    "I'd say U.S. News is a highly respected source much to the chagrin of Utah fans..."

    US News ranks universities based on a very subjective set of criteria that is easily manipulated by schools. I had a mother in my stake tell me that BYU would not allow her daughter to get a minor because it was not necessary for her major. I've had young men in my ward tell me that BYU wants them done and out of the university.

    Why does BYU do that?

    US News used to report on the number of females who complete a degree and BYU reported 50%. That's probably on the high side and yes, we all know what happens to BYU co-eds and why they don't graduate. At that time, BYU's ranking in US News was 2nd tier, well below 125. US News stopped including the graduation rate for women several years ago and BYU's ranking improved dramatically.

    BYU is able to make the information they provide US News fit their survey. Try reviewing results of services that report on objective criteria.

  • GoUtah
    July 2, 2010 5:54 p.m.

    @MUSSing with U

    Does the "U.S. News National Universities Rankings" mention that Utah is moving on to the PAC?

    We're moving on. Utah has dominated the rivalry and Utah will leave on a high note beating the TDS at home as it last game with the "mid-majors" in the MWC.

    Utah will NOT lose that game. It will be similar to the '04 and '08 years; Utah will have the greater motivation to win.

    It's on to the "Majors" for Utah, now.

  • Naval Vet
    July 2, 2010 5:49 p.m.

    Zoobies have been claiming over the last 4 yrs that ybU has been engaging in "secret talks" with the Big XII for admission. After 2 Big XII schools vacated their spots, why didn't the Big XII invite ybU?

    Because there NEVER WAS any discussions between ybU and the Big XII. And that's because the Big XII doesn't want ybU.

    If TCU keeps winning like they have been, and the Big XII(X) turns into the Big II + X(VIII) with Texas and Oklahoma as the only teams in that conference worth their salt, the Bix XII(10) might look to add to the strenght of their conference. In this case, TCU (and/or Houston or Boise St.) could be auditioning for membership. Tulane could add the New Orleans market. Colorado St. or Air Force could win back a share of the Denver market. None of those teams would be bringing all that prima donna baggage the "why?" imposes.

    As for now, the Big XII blew a kiss to Arkansas and Notre Dame. It remains to be seen how realistic that would be, but it IS clear....



  • TrueBlue
    July 2, 2010 5:49 p.m.

    At least Cougars aren't the jolliest gang who lives across the green.

    Utah fans would cease to exist without having BYU to compare themselves to.

    Utah may be moving to the PAC 12, but so far, they haven't done anything to prove that the Utes will be anything more than middle of the pack also-ran in the PAC 12.

    Utah, in their heyday, can't live a day without obsessing about BYU.

    BYU, in their heyday, hardly gave a thought to the Utes except for the Utes annual bowl game against the Cougars.

  • MUSSing with U
    July 2, 2010 5:40 p.m.


    Typical Utah fan response -- discredit the source.

    Feel free to carefully evaluate the complete methodology behind the U.S. News National Universities Rankings, but here's an excerpt"

    "The U.S. News ranking formula gives greatest weight to the opinions of those in a position to judge a school's undergraduate academic excellence. The peer assessment survey allows the top academics we consult–presidents, provosts, and deans of admissions–to account for intangibles such as faculty dedication to teaching. Each individual is asked to rate peer schools' academic programs on a 5-point scale from 1 (marginal) to 5 (distinguished). Those who don't know enough about a school to evaluate it fairly are asked to mark 'don't know.'"

  • GoUtah
    July 2, 2010 5:29 p.m.

    There are SO many amazing posts on this subject. Stats, justification(s), history, etc.

    At the end of the day, Utah is no longer a "mid-major" like the TDS!

    I encourage all Utah fans to "rise" above the rhetoric and "shout, the cougars are OUT." TDS fan's fight song is correct, the cougars are OUT.

  • Troll Hunter
    July 2, 2010 5:03 p.m.

    @ VegasTroll

    You crack me up, you berate people and the football knowledge yet you bring up that the Big 12 would invite TCU before BYU !?!? Everyone who has even pay attention to this conference expansion thing knows that TEXAS and Texas A&M will not vote for another Texas team joining the Big 12, because of recruiting!! Come on now Vegas, you need to dig alittle deeper in that outstanding football knowledge of your.... Nice try again UTETROLL

  • VegasUte
    July 2, 2010 4:58 p.m.

    @Utah'95: sorry Dad, I'll be good. We'll wait until November 27. What a great season this will be, no matter what! Can't wait for it to start.

    Go Utes!

  • scenic view
    July 2, 2010 4:56 p.m.

    I'd say U.S. News is a highly respected source much to the chagrin of Utah fans who like to wear blinders to anything that distracts from distorted view of reality.

  • scenic view
    July 2, 2010 4:45 p.m.

    The Big 12 isn't at all interested in Houston, a small school in a pro market that is already dominated in the college sector by Texas and Texas A&M.

    Same goes for TCU. Despite TCU's recent success on the gridiron, Texas Texas and Texas A&M would vehemently object to the Big 12 inviting TCU.

    Besides which, the Big 12 commissioner has already stated that the Big 12 isn't interested in expanding within the current 5-state Big 12 footprint, meaning, they're not interested in adding anymore teams from Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Iowa, or Missouri.

    BYU is not only a very strong candidate, BYU is practically a lock for being invited to the Big 12 as soon as the conference decides that they need to renew their conference championship game to keep pace with the other major conferences.

  • phramahaphil
    July 2, 2010 4:42 p.m.

    US News -- Authority on Academia

  • Utah'95
    July 2, 2010 4:36 p.m.

    C'mon guys, quit the childish bickering.

    Ute fans - trying to paint the BYU football program, and their entire athletic program as unimpressive is silly.

    BYU fans - some pretty smart guys decided to expand their conference, and they didn't invite you. Maybe saying, "Yeah, but they should have. Look how awesome we are" helps some of you come to terms with it, but I don't think the Pac 10 is going to reconsider their decision because of your biased posts.

    So what now?

    Quality football in the MWC over the last several years has caught the attention of the nation. Adding a quality BSU football program will be very interesting.

    BYU will continue to win a lot of football games.

    The top third of the MWC, even after Utah leaves, will consist of some very dangerous football teams. But the bottom six teams need to get better before the MWC is considered as good as the current BCS conferences.

    Utah will have to bring it every week. The teams in the bottom two thirds of the Pac 10 are much better than their counterparts in the MWC.

    Can we please move on?

  • VegasUte
    July 2, 2010 4:36 p.m.

    @phramaphil: Please do not confuse the zoobs with REALITY, you may damage their fragile alternate fantasy world.

  • MUSSing with U
    July 2, 2010 4:30 p.m.

    Best Colleges 2010

    National Universities Rankings

    Schools in the National Universities category, such as Yale and UCLA, offer a full range of undergraduate majors, master's, and doctoral degrees. These colleges also are committed to producing groundbreaking research.

    (source: U.S. News & World Report)

    Tier 1 Ranking

    Brigham Young University - 71st

    University of Utah - 126th

    Colorado State - 128th


  • UtahUtes1
    July 2, 2010 4:29 p.m.

    @phramahaphil | 4:03 p.m. July 2, 2010

    I love this post...

    Those who watched the press conference/acceptance ceremony on television will recognize this as EXACTLY what the PAC is looking for. The case was clearly stated.

  • UtahUtes1
    July 2, 2010 4:09 p.m.

    @VegasUte | 3:47 p.m. July 2, 2010

    "When the Big 12 expands, they will not take ybU. The two schools that make sense to the Big 12 are Houston and TCU. When TCU leaves, the MWC will never be an AQ conference. YbU will do better becoming an independent school."

    That's probably true but consider how BYU DOMINATE the conference. WOW!! Oh, wait, they will still be playing the punching bag for Boise St. Well, consider the NATIONAL attention BYU will get when they ALMOST dominate.

    Of course, I should clear this with BYUFAM1. So...

  • phramahaphil
    July 2, 2010 4:05 p.m.

    sorry the BYU rankings are:

    World 303 to 401
    National 135 to 162

  • phramahaphil
    July 2, 2010 4:03 p.m.

    BYU fans like stats:

    Utah Nobel Prize Winners -- 2(Google)
    Mario Cappechi -- Medicine
    Venkatraman Ramakrishnan -- Chemistry
    Actually won for work at the U of U!

    Utah Academic Ranking
    World -- 80th
    National -- 47th

    Let's not forget the first permanent artificial heart.

    BYU Nobel Prize Winners -- 1
    Paul D. Boyer -- Chemistry (Work Done at UCLA -- PAC-10 School)

    BYU Academic Ranking
    World -- 303—401
    National -- 135—162

    Maybe academics and research have something to do with the PAC-10's decision.

  • Archie
    July 2, 2010 3:55 p.m.

    @Hunt | 3:00 p.m. July 2, 2010

    Oh, the Sears Cup. Well, why didn't somebody bring this forward sooner? This changes everything.

    You need to immediately notify the PAC and inform them they overlooked the Sears Cup and that BYU should receive the invite instead of Utah.

    I read this on a post above, think BYU fans need to give it serious consideration...

    "You (and other BYU fans) are trying to explain BYU being left off the PAC invite list based on the narrow scope of BYU's accomplishments. That is, you insist on looking at PAC schools in relation to the BYU model to prove a fit. You will not be successful with that analysis."

  • UtahUtes1
    July 2, 2010 3:48 p.m.

    @BYUFAM1 | 11:38 a.m. July 2, 2010

    "The statement does not require a team to be undefeated overall. And it certainly doesn't require you to be even undefeated in conference - just dominant."

    You seem to have designated yourself as the rule writer so what are the requirements for domination? What does "just dominant" mean in your post? If BYU wins a title by winning 10 games and every win was overtime, did they dominate? I think we need some ground rules here.

    I'll let you make the determination...

  • VegasUte
    July 2, 2010 3:47 p.m.

    Here is a reality zoob nation does not want to face: When the Big 12 expands, they will not take ybU. The two schools that make sense to the Big 12 are Houston and TCU. When TCU leaves, the MWC will never be an AQ conference. YbU will do better becoming an independent school.

    One more thing, you talk about how well BYU travels. This may be true, but zoobs are the cheapest fans in the country. Who cares if you go to a city but spend no money? You shack up on someone's living room floor and eat sack lunches!

    Zoobs - who needs them? Not the PAC 12 and neither will the Big 12!

    Go UTES!

    The future IS Crimson! Get used to it!

  • MUSSing with U
    July 2, 2010 3:32 p.m.

    At least Colorado and Utah should lead the PAC 12 in skiing.

    It's sad, however, that the Utes don't have enough resources to field a men's track team, one of the big "minor" sports in the PAC 10.

    It's even sadder that the Utes don't have a men's volleyball team, a huge sport on the west coast.

    Of course that would just give BYU another couple of sports through which the Cougars would dominate the Utes.

  • Hunt
    July 2, 2010 3:00 p.m.

    Speaking of athletic accomplishment, BYU consistently ranks in the top 25 of the Sears Cup standings. Anyone care to take a shot as to where Utah lies?

  • Drailed
    July 2, 2010 2:58 p.m.

    RE:Dave from Taylorsville | 1:18 p.m. July 2, 2010

    My complaint with the author is that he assumes "14 million Mormons" will tune in and watch BYU athletics on TV. I eliminated most of the church members who do not live in the United State, because I doubt the majority of them even care about American football or are even able to watch the games. I then asked the QUESTION, how many of the LDS members in the United States are "actually" BYU fans. Meaning 100%? 75%? 50%? 25%?????

    I don't see how my post is "WRONG". I think the author of this article was purposely being disingenuous and misleading, he is assuming that every single Mormon in the world will have their TVs tuned in to watch BYU play.

    Next time you quote me please try to use my whole post. Also read the portion of the article I was criticizing. It said nothing about travel, just TV sets and 14 million Mormons tuning in. You pretty much cherry picked parts of my post and twisted it. I guess you have about as much integrity as the author does.

  • MUSSing with U
    July 2, 2010 2:46 p.m.

    The reason RES seats 20,000 less than LES is because the Utah administration didn't want to be embarrassed by having another 20,000 fans coming disguised as empty red chairs. They already have enough of those in the HC.

    The Cougars had more than 45,000 fans showing up to BYU games BEFORE BYU expanded LES to 65,000 almost THIRTY years ago!

    July 2, 2010 2:33 p.m.

    Uteology | 2:02 p.m. July 2, 2010
    As a huge 49er fan [me to - well one of my teams] it matters to me that we have stunk since the early [mid] 90s. [Dallas/Green Bay are worse than Utah]

    It should matter to you that there is not a single player NOW that compares to those two great players that you produced 20 years ago.. The fact is Utah is producing more [average] NFL players NOW...While the last time you did anything on the National stage was in the WAC in 1996...

    Major difference is BYU has won and competed for conference titles and been ranked regularly since then. Unfortunately our 49er's have not done nearly as well.

    So according to your Ute logic with the 49er's - AZ and Seattle are the better franchises historically because they've done better the last decade even though neither has won even 1 super bowl. BTW wasn't Alex Smith supposed to make us awesome again :-)

    Let's face it - neither school may ever produce players that go on to the NFL and have careers like McMahon/Young ever again. At least one school did in the past.

  • Naval Vet
    July 2, 2010 2:22 p.m.

    Dave from Taylorsville:

    You zoobs sure seem proud of your attendance records. It's true that with 20,000 more seats in your stadium than Utah possesses at RES the "why?" gets 20,000 more fans to their home games. It's also true that ybU fans can fill 2/3 of any stadium in the country. Do you remember how well ybU did in those aforementioned bowl games vs. Oklahoma St. and Ohio St? I sure do. They lost. Zoobies value attendance; not wins.

    So on THAT note, ybU needn't join a BCS conference at all. They should just go independent. That'll provide their national fanbase an avenue to fill up the largest stadiums in the country and cheer their team on toward one losing season after another. Hell, I'd cheer too! And you never know -- if you "quest" earnestly enough, you just might become the #1 losing team in the nation. Then, you can start to fill up your trophy case again. Sure they'll be Darwin Awards, but let's not split hairs. You zoobies wouldn't ever know the difference anyway.

    Go zoobs.

  • Arynen
    July 2, 2010 2:07 p.m.

    @GoUtah | 1:44 p.m.

    BYU has an official NC whether you like it or not. They may never get another one, but it's official record, just like Utah going to the PAC-10 is official no matter how much its validity is debated. To use a phrase from your fellow fans...

    Get used to it!!

  • Uteology
    July 2, 2010 2:02 p.m.

    As a huge 49er fan it matters to me that we have stunk since the early 90s.

    It should matter to you that there is not a single player NOW that compares to those two great players that you produced 20 years ago.. The fact is Utah is producing more NFL players NOW which is great for our future. While the last time you did anything on the National stage was in the WAC in 1996, which I think you would agree is not a good trend regardless of top 25 finishes.

  • CG
    July 2, 2010 1:45 p.m.

    "left BYU before most of the current fans were even born?"

    Based on the writing ability and the juvenile nature of his posts, it's doubtful this blogger has graduated high school.

    No surprise then that history, for him, didn't begin until this century.

  • GoUtah
    July 2, 2010 1:44 p.m.

    @Dave from Taylorsville

    Congrats on the TDS fan base. I'm not sure what it matters regarding Utah going to the PAC. You should be happy with that massive "mid-major" stadium and 26 year old *NC.

    * Didn't beat a single top AP 25 ranked team in 1984. ESPN debates it to this day whether or not the TDS deserved it.

  • hedgehog
    July 2, 2010 1:42 p.m.

    "Is it possible that hedgehog is projecting his own tender adolescense on to everyone else?"

    Nope. I watched Jimm play at tds and Chicago. Loved the big dip he put in his mouth after games. I'm sure tds was sooo proud.

    BYUfam1, your very liberal with your assumptions

  • Uteology
    July 2, 2010 1:30 p.m.

    BYUFAM1|9:29 a.m. July 2, 2010

    it's also been demonstraed who means more to the MWC and it's not the team getting humilated by our 5th place PAC team in the postseason. It's the team that put the conference on the map by making history in 2004.

    Why is it that BYU is the only mid major concerned with conference wins and top 25 finishes? You are 2-22 in the MWC against final ranked teams.

    I could be wrong but since no mid major has finished higher then #2 under the current rules top 25 doesn't equal success. Just see 2008 BYU team that was printing "Perfection" t-shirts in the preseason.

  • Dave from Taylorsville
    July 2, 2010 1:18 p.m.

    Drailed | 1:45 a.m. June 30, 2010
    "I will probably get flamed for this but here it is. I am sorry but I found that part (LDS Church member support across the country) of your article to be very disingenuous and misleading. The rest of it just sounded like a bunch of crying."

    While I agree that a lot of Robinson's "spewings" were sour grapes and crying (this BYU fan isn't crying though), the above comment from this Ute fan I've heard before. It's old and tired and WRONG WRONG WRONG!

    These are the FACTS: BYU travel well, to ANY part of the country. If the Utes went to the Citrus Bowl in Orlando, they would have to bring their fans from Utah. I'm from Florida and was there in 76 at the old Tangerine Bowl (same stadium). Stadium was filled. 2/3 to 3/4 of the place were BYU fans, most from Florida. Same thing happened in Tampa w/ the Ohio State game and Dallas, etc. etc. etc.

    There are BYU fans from coast to coast - not so for U of U. That is FACT!!!!

    July 2, 2010 12:59 p.m.

    hedgehog | 12:07 p.m. July 2, 2010
    Two zoobs who left BYU before most of the current fans were even born?

    Very telling if you believe most Cougar fans were not born before then.

    Is it possible that hedgehog is projecting his own tender adolescense on to everyone else?

    It makes sense though as there wasn't much to be a fan of at Utah before 1994 so I guess that is why so many of their fans seem to be so young [12-26?] (as witnessed by their responses and inability to understand stats/evidence).

    Just like I'm sure there is a drop off in the number of BYU fans in the 65+ age range as back when they were young BYU sports were about as non-existent as Utah was from 1960-1994.

    Now please note I didn't say that every fan of Utah or BYU are a specific age (or ability) so nobody needs to start telling me their age and tugging at their britches or wagging their "no you didn't" finger in the air. If it applies to you then you may take offense. If not then be happy.

  • hedgehog
    July 2, 2010 12:07 p.m.

    "Steve Young and Jim McMahon are MODERN era Quarterbacks that have won a Superbowl, doesn't matter if it's 10, 20 or 30 years ago."

    Troll hunter,

    So that's what your left with? Two zoobs who left BYU before most of the current fans were even born? It's telling (and sad) that one needs to revert back to the "glory days" of BYU football to argue what's actually going on today.

    Best thing I see in the NFL is a third option receiver... pretty weak.

  • SportsFan
    July 2, 2010 12:06 p.m.

    I have a good friend who's in graduate school at Cal Berkeley. The general reaction of Cal students to Utah joining the PAC 12 is no different than it would have been if BYU had been invited... they hate both schools equally and aren't at all excited about being associated with a "Mormon school."


    For BYU, Utah joining the PAC 12 just means that BYU will get credit for beating a "BCS" team every time the Cougars beat the Utes.

  • Naval Vet
    July 2, 2010 11:50 a.m.

    Jealous U:

    "The PAC 10 settled for the third best football program from the MWC; but don't feel bad Utah, the PAC 10 also settled for one of the worst Big 12 football programs."

    Ya know something Jealous...going back to 1996, zoobies have invented a story about fmr-Gov. Ann Richards and Baylor as the reason they were not invited as members of the Big XII. It's a bogus claim, but zoobies have never let facts get in the way of good story. Going back to 2006, zoobies have invented ANOTHER story wherein ybU was having "secret talks" with the Big XII for expansion. Four yrs later, 2 vacancies in the Big XII open up. One was due to the exit of lowly Colorado. So after 4 yrs of "secret talks" with the Big XII, did ybU backfill that position?


    Because the Big XII didn't want you. I guess they figured you were even worse than Colorado.

    Go zoob.

  • Roboto
    July 2, 2010 11:46 a.m.

    Darn it the cougar nation spies have found out we didn't get into the PAC 10 cause of research. Truth Is our athletics are 50x better

    July 2, 2010 11:38 a.m.

    UtahUtes1 | 10:54 a.m
    "BYU deserved and earned the chance with their overall athletic excellence and dominating presence over the WAC and MWC in most non-Crowton years." Dominating presence over the MWC and WAC?? BYU had one undefeated season a quarter century ago. Dominating??

    You (and other BYU fans) are trying to explain BYU being left off the PAC invite list based on the narrow scope of BYU's accomplishments. That is, you insist on looking at PAC schools in relation to the BYU model to prove a fit. You will not be successful with that analysis

    "Dominating presence over the MWC and WAC??"

    BYU (23 titles)
    9 times with no losses in conference (3 MWC, 6 WAC)
    12 times with only 1 loss in conference (1 MWC, 11 WAC)

    Utah (6 titles)
    2 times with no losses in conference (2 MWC)
    2 times with only 1 loss in conference (1 MWC, 1 WAC)

    The statement does not require a team to be undefeated overall. And it certainly doesn't require you to be even undefeated in conference - just dominant. Those facts should speak for themselves. And BYU obviously did not dominate 3 of Crowton's years.

  • Naval Vet
    July 2, 2010 11:35 a.m.

    Joe Schmoe

    "Get ready because you are now going to be seen as the 'Mormon School' by the rest of the pac-10. Are you ready to endure?"

    Sure. Ute fans don't have that same persecution complex that "whYners" have.

    Get ready because you are now going to be seen as the "mid-major-on-our-schedule" by the rest of the ESPN broadcast crew. Are you ready to endure?

  • UtahUtes1
    July 2, 2010 10:54 a.m.

    @RockOn | 10:06 p.m. July 1, 2010

    "BYU has a stronger doctoral program than half the PAC 10ish schools."

    Really? I have not looked at other PAC schools but I seriously doubt that BYU's PhD offering 25 disciplines is even remotely competitive with PAC schools. It certainly isn't competitive with Utah.

    "Again... Utah deserved and earned the chance with their recent accomplishments." Thank you for acknowledging that. I assume the "recent accomplishments" to which you refer pertain to the BCS wins and national rankings. I raise this point because Utah's accomplishments in research are far from recent.

    "BYU deserved and earned the chance with their overall athletic excellence and dominating presence over the WAC and MWC in most non-Crowton years." Dominating presence over the MWC and WAC?? BYU had one undefeated season a quarter century ago. Dominating??

    You (and other BYU fans) are trying to explain BYU being left off the PAC invite list based on the narrow scope of BYU's accomplishments. That is, you insist on looking at PAC schools in relation to the BYU model to prove a fit. You will not be successful with that analysis.

  • Troll Hunter
    July 2, 2010 10:40 a.m.

    Vegas Troll, Steve Young and Jim McMahon are MODERN era Quarterbacks that have won a Superbowl, doesn't matter if it's 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Shows how much you know about football PERIOD!

    Nice try again lol

  • Fed Employee
    July 2, 2010 10:24 a.m.

    Here is what I honestly don't understand. Everyone's talking about how Utah and the PAC schools are research schools and BYU isn't. If you look at the Carnegie rankings which classify schools you'll see that the difference between them is while BYU is a research university with high research Utah is a research university with very high research. That's the only difference between the two as far as Carnegie is concerned. High versus very high.

  • VegasUte
    July 2, 2010 9:38 a.m.

    Droll Hunter: Here's what I GET - you are trying to make a point and you have to go back DECADES to make it. Here's what else I GET - you don't know football. Here's what else I GET - Utah is moving up and forward and many zoobs (including you) are bitter!

    Utah is in the PAC 10 and will be an AQ school, BYU is not, and it tears you up! That to me is funny! What I say to you is - GET used to it and move on!

    GO UTES!!

    The future is bright. The future IS Crimson! GET used to it!!

    July 2, 2010 9:29 a.m.

    Uteology | 6:13 a.m.
    Utah's 3rd place? yes in your dreams.

    Don't let math facts get in your way when speaking out. It has been demonstrated by actual finishes (not perception) who perenially falls to 3rd in football and it is not BYU (not in combines sports either).

    Big Daddy Ute | 6:48 a.m.
    To Rock On. Why do you exclude the Crowton years.

    He isn't excluding the Crowton years like you perceive. We all know that Crowton coached 3 of the worst teams in the last 40 years - there is no debate about who was better during those years - so we exclude them from the debate. Heck we even agree that Utah was better in 2008 and don't have a problem with someone else having an amazing season.

    But take Utah's best decade ever overlapping the Crowton years and what do you get - BYU has more MWC wins and Top 25 finishes.

    The Pac picked Utah because it is their criteria/perogative, in your mind it may eliminate years of being 2/3rd fiddle across the board in the MWC but the record books show the truth.

  • SoCalUtahFan
    July 2, 2010 8:18 a.m.

    @scenic view...

    The real ranking

    Major Utah
    Mid-Major BYU

  • Troll Hunter
    July 2, 2010 8:18 a.m.

    @ VegasTroll

    Nice Try, Read it again and you might GET it.

  • hedgehog
    July 2, 2010 7:43 a.m.

    "Why is it acceptable, even laudable, for BYU to uphold such high "moral" standards, but it is offensive for the Pac 10 to uphold such high "academic" standards"

    Great point Utah95,

    When outsiders question, for example the *Honor code hypocrisies’ at BYU; Most Kewgs respond with “If you don’t agree with the rules don’t come to BYU”

    Is the so called *Honor Code ambiguous? Absolutely. Do the Kewgs have a problem with this? Absolutely not. It’s only when judgment(s) are placed upon BYU that we hear the screams of injustice.

    BYU has dug there own “Mid Major” grave by the multitude of actions they live. To feel insulted or victimized by the similar actions of more powerful entities is simply hypocritical.

  • Big Daddy Ute
    July 2, 2010 6:48 a.m.

    To Rock On. Why do you exclude the Crowton years. You Y folks talk as if he is the cause of cancer. Why not count them all. So does that mean the U can take away the Fassel, Lobato, and Howard years. Oh wait why we are at it, we can take away the Archibald years, and give a Mulligan with the Reid years. I have an idea, lets count them all, from day one. Fact is, we have you in football by a ton, and basketball is a toss up. GO UTES

  • Uteology
    July 2, 2010 6:13 a.m.


    Utah's 3rd place? yes in your dreams. Why is it that you need Boise to prop up the conference against BcS?

    BYU has one more top 25 ranking in the MWC, #25 2008 that was embarassed by TCU, Utah, and Arizona. Not much better then the 2007 Ute team.

  • Cosmo
    July 2, 2010 5:18 a.m.

    I love how this is racking up all the comments so fast!!

    Keep blazing that trail of fame and glory BYU!

    I look forward to continuing the rivalry with the Utes of up North in the Vegas bowl almost every year! (minus the year or two that BYU makes it to a BCS bowl).

    Gooooooooooo COUGARS!

  • Utah'95
    July 2, 2010 1:44 a.m.

    There are some salient points above. Unfortunately we have to sift through a lot of name-calling, taunting, and "we're better than you because" to find them. Abr2116's comments at 1:12 p.m. July 1, 2010 are worth a careful read.

    Undoubtably numerous factors came into play when deciding who to invite. But every time Pac 10 officials mention "research" as a criteria, many of you cry foul, or even worse. Why are you so quick to accuse people you have never met of lying?

    BYU has a standard - "get good grades, agree to live this way, and you are welcome to come."

    These universities also have a code - "we believe research is very important. If you want to be a new member of our conference, you need to be committed to research."

    Why is it acceptable, even laudable, for BYU to uphold such high "moral" standards, but it is offensive for the Pac 10 to uphold such high "academic" standards?

    The presidents and chancelors are entrusted with the reputations of their univerisites, four of which are world class. Would they risk their schools' reputations by voting BYU down because "we don't like Mormons?"

  • scenic view
    July 2, 2010 1:11 a.m.


    2009 AP #12 USA Today #12
    2008 AP #25 USA Today #21
    2007 AP #14 USA Today #15
    2006 AP #16 USA Today #15
    2001 AP #25 USA Today #24
    1996 AP #5 USA Today #5
    1994 AP #18 USA Today #10
    1991 AP #23 USA Today #23
    1990 AP #22 UPI #17
    1989 AP #22 UPI #18
    1985 AP #16 UPI #17
    1984 AP #1 UPI #1
    1983 AP #7 UPI #7
    1981 AP #13 UPI #11
    1980 AP #12 UPI #11
    1979 AP #13 UPI #12
    1977 AP #20 UPI #16

    2009 AP #18 USA Today #18
    2008 AP #2 USA Today #4
    2004 AP #4 USA Today #5
    2003 AP #21 USA Today #21
    1994 AP #10 USA Today #8
    1964 UPI #14

  • Arynen
    July 2, 2010 12:13 a.m.

    @PAC Member, are U? | 11:12 p.m.

    Utah fans aren't whiners? What has every Utah fan been doing on this comment board? I've counted at least double Utah posts vs. BYU posts in this thread.

    Fact is:

    Utah is going to the Pac-10
    Utah has 2 recent BCS bowl wins
    Utah has a better overall win record against BYU in football.

    BYU is staying in the MWC
    BYU has a recognized National Championship (like it or not)
    BYU has a better overall established sports program, more successful overall history, and a larger fan-base.

    What does this all mean? Nothing. Yet you Yewties insist on projecting your spurious superiority over BYU. In the end, it's a game. It's entertainment. Yet the comments on here are so heated against the article writer. Maybe next time you call BYU the whiners, you should be careful of which thread you post on, because the facts in this thread definitely show otherwise.

  • Joe Schmoe
    July 1, 2010 11:49 p.m.

    I am so anxious for Utah to go to the Pac.

    That is going to be a very fun year to watch what happens.

    The first away game to Stanford is going to be a riot.

    Can't wait.

  • PAC Member, are U?
    July 1, 2010 11:12 p.m.

    @ Joe Schmoe

    "Get ready because you are now going to be seen as the "Mormon School" by the rest of the pac-10. Are you ready to endure?"

    That's the beauty of the U. Local LDS recruits can stay local, be surrounded by top LDS coaches, serve the mission and beat the TDS at the end of this season. It's all good. And unlike the TDS fans, Utah fans aren't Y'ners, so that's a real benefit, too.

    July 1, 2010 10:37 p.m.

    Uteology | 7:06 p.m. July 1, 2010
    Here’s a comparison of apples to apples, according to College Football Data Warehouse:

    All-Time Rankings:

    Did you fat finger the keyboard and make a typo or were you being dishonest with your fellow man?

    All-Time Rankings according to them was:

    This is an interesting little site that I've never heard of before. It has never been referenced in any SI, ESPN, CBS Sports, Fox article that I have ever read. You are the lone person I have ever come across that has referenced it.

    The data seems kind of incomplete. All decade rankings are currently being revised. They apparently don't have a single season ranking. I'm guessing the fact that these are not commonly cited by major sources that perhaps they find some flaws in the current method of calculating results.

    I don't know that I would call it apples to apples. Maybe more jackfruit to jackfruit (considered one of the rarest fruits in the world). Consider the teams they have ranked above Utah/BYU and decide for yourself if the rankings make sense.

  • VegasUte
    July 1, 2010 10:12 p.m.

    Jealous - your name states it all. Bitter much?

    The future is Crimson - get used to it!

  • RockOn
    July 1, 2010 10:06 p.m.

    What a bunch of moronic whiners... Robinson was not there to bury Utah. He said they were deserving. In the right place at the right time with their program to be sure, but, they deserved to be considered with their recent Whittingham years...

    But, Robinson's article simply said BYU was deserving too. And to say they were ignored due to "research" status is a crock. BYU has a stronger doctoral program than half the PAC 10ish schools. Utah just first their profile better being a state school. They didn't want Baylor either -- the PAC 10 boors are religious bigots and don't care who knows it.

    Again... Utah deserved and earned the chance with their recent accomplishments. BYU deserved and earned the chance with their overall athletic excellence and dominating presence over the WAC and MWC in most non-Crowton years.

  • Jealous U
    July 1, 2010 9:21 p.m.

    Your quarterly rankings are completely meaningless Uteology.

    Top 25 Rankings are the ONLY rankings in college football that mean anything.

    The PAC 10 settled for the third best football program from the MWC; but don't feel bad Utah, the PAC 10 also settled for one of the worst Big 12 football programs.

  • Cougars --Best Little Brothers
    July 1, 2010 7:47 p.m.

    The Maaco Bowl Las Vegas receives the first choice of Mountain West teams, unless that team is selected by the BCS. If BYU is chosen, the bowl name is changed to The Cougar BCS Bowl

  • Cougars --Best Little Brothers
    July 1, 2010 7:40 p.m.

    ...The Maaco Bowl Las Vegas (formerly the Las Vegas Bowl) is an NCAA-sanctioned Division I-A post-season college football bowl game that has been played annually at 40,000-seat Sam Boyd Stadium in Las Vegas, Nevada since 1992...
    Most appearance...
    1 BYU 5 3-2
    T2 Nevada 3 1-2
    T2 UCLA 3 1-2
    T4 UNLV 2 2-0
    T4 Utah 2 2-0

    The bowl should be renamed "Cougar BCS Bowl".
    If you agree, please speak up now!

  • Uteology
    July 1, 2010 7:26 p.m.

    BYUFAM1 | 3:19 p.m. July 1, 2010
    @VegasUte | 2:48 p.m. July 1, 2010

    NFL draft stats...interesting

    BYU leads 119 to Utah 93 all time

    Since the creation of the MWC, BYU 24/Utah 24


    If you attended a research university you would now how to spot "trends":

    Under KW: 19 drafts picks ... lead us to #2 and #4
    Under Bronco: 9 draft picks... lead you to 3-2 against 5th place PAC-10 teams

    Same period: Boise 8, Washington State 8, Oregon 21

  • Uteology
    July 1, 2010 7:20 p.m.

    BYUFAM1 | 2:41 p.m. July 1, 2010

    Really because you have to live in Utah to be a fan of either Utah or BYU? Doesn't make sense to me.


    No but but it makes you a Zoob when you post on a Utah article in a Utah newspaper.

    My loyalty is to my alum that I followed since I was 1983-ish living in Salt Lake. I am a fan of USC but I don't post on UCLA (or even USC) articles in the LA times.

  • Uteology
    July 1, 2010 7:06 p.m.

    Pac-10 made the correct choice.

    Here’s a comparison of apples to apples, according to College Football Data Warehouse:

    Current Decade Rankings 2000-09:

    Quarter Century Rankings:


    All-Time Rankings:

  • UteMan
    July 1, 2010 5:48 p.m.

    Re: Arynen

    "You know, Arynen, the great thing about being a Utah fan is that very soon when we go to a Utah game, we are in the PAC-12. When people go to a BYU game, they will go to see the cougs play Wyoming or the 80 year olds next to them knitting a sweater."

    Again I ask the question regarding how many of your "marginal" fans will soon realize a game between Utah and USC, Oregon, Stanford, OSU, Washington, WSU, Cal, Colorado, Arizona, or ASU will be more entertaining that watching anyone play SDSU, WYO, NM and CSU?

    It's a PAC-12 thing, you wouldn't understand.

  • VegasUte
    July 1, 2010 4:08 p.m.

    Droll Hunter: If those are the only names you can come up with, you surely don't know football! And, once AGAIN, a zoob has to go back decades to pull up ybU names to make a point! Come to the current century zoobs!

    Go Utes!!

    The future is bright. The future IS Crimson!!

    July 1, 2010 3:48 p.m.

    VegasUte | 3:13 p.m. July 1, 2010
    Hey Archie, even if he had lived in Utah, he would have gone to UVU!

    Perhaps, although the wrestling scholarship offer was to BYU.

    That said, would it have mattered if I went to UVU? Which I believe was still a community college back then. Could I not then have rooted for BYU?

  • Troll Hunter
    July 1, 2010 3:47 p.m.

    @ VegasTroll

    Level of Prestige of Players from the Universities that played in the NFL and what they accomplished...Think about it two quarterbacks that have won a Superbowl (Steve Young, Jim McMahon), they best Utah has is Larry Wilson, Saftey for the Cardinals 30 years ago.. Well Maybe I'll give ya Steve Smith but he keeps falling down and breaking his arm.

  • VegasUte
    July 1, 2010 3:36 p.m.

    BYUFAM1 - You zoobs sure do have to reach back a LONG way to come up with points. ZINGER!! ROFL!

    The PAC 10 invited us THIS year, not 30 years ago.

    Go Utes!

    July 1, 2010 3:19 p.m.

    @VegasUte | 2:48 p.m. July 1, 2010

    NFL draft stats...interesting

    BYU leads 119 to Utah 93 all time

    Since the creation of the MWC, BYU 24/Utah 24

  • VegasUte
    July 1, 2010 3:13 p.m.

    Hey Archie, even if he had lived in Utah, he would have gone to UVU!

  • VegasUte
    July 1, 2010 2:48 p.m.

    Some more FACTS for you zoobs and doubters to digest:

    Which MWC school has the most current NFL players? Utah!

    Over the past two drafts, how many ybU players were drafted by the NFL? 3 (2 in 09, 1 in 10)

    Over the past two drafts, how many UTE players were drafted by the NFL? 10 (4 in 09, 6 in 10)

    Get used to it!

    Go Utes!!

    July 1, 2010 2:41 p.m.

    Archie | 1:55 p.m. July 1, 2010
    @BYUFAM1 | 12:34 p.m. July 1, 2010

    If you've never lived in Utah then you never attended BYU (unless you did it in Idaho or Hawaii). You know nothing of what's going on in Utah nor do you have a vested interest in any issue on these boards. Your credibility just went down the tubes.

    I'm done reading your rambling posts...good bye.

    Really because you have to live in Utah to be a fan of either Utah or BYU? Doesn't make sense to me.

    I would think that would mean my knowledge of what people think nationally (outside of Utah) would be more appreciated.

    Now if we were talking about the current weather in Utah or the water quality or local politics then maybe your rambling Archie would have significance. And I'm positive you won't find posts from me on things like that (although I bet I could find the statistics to support an argument if I needed to on those topics - but I don't care about those topics).

    What a narrow perspective you have Archie. Who lives in a bubble?

  • VegasUte
    July 1, 2010 2:28 p.m.

    Got my Sporting News today, they have the entire 120 schools ranked for 2010 football. Interesting: BYU is rated fourth in the MWC behind TCU(6), Utah(22) and Air Force(42). They are ranked 45, behind other notable non-AQ schools such as Houston, Navy and Middle Tennessee State.

    GO UTES!!

  • Archie
    July 1, 2010 1:55 p.m.

    @BYUFAM1 | 12:34 p.m. July 1, 2010

    If you've never lived in Utah then you never attended BYU (unless you did it in Idaho or Hawaii). You know nothing of what's going on in Utah nor do you have a vested interest in any issue on these boards. Your credibility just went down the tubes.

    I'm done reading your rambling posts...good bye.

  • abr2116
    July 1, 2010 1:12 p.m.

    I work in higher education and follow these things closely, from my observations I can tell you that the PAC-10 decision to not invite BYU came down to a few simple things, like it or not.

    1)At BYU professors do not enjoy the same academic freedom as those in PAC-10 schools. See Martha Nussbaum's "Cultivating Humanity" as one example, BYU is really the poster child in academia of restricted academic freedom.

    2)BYU continues to discriminate based upon religion. It is well within their rights as a private institution to do so but withholding tenure from non-LDS faculty, not hiring non-lds, and so on, it does not look good.

    3)They just flat out do not appreciate the 'holier-than-thou' attitude of BYU. The LDS Church culture annoys intellectuals.

  • Big_Ben
    July 1, 2010 12:59 p.m.

    I wonder if anyone is ever going to come up with something new on these forums. In six pages (and counting) of posts, we have a lot of "84" "2 BCS wins" "little brother" "history" "conference of champions" and a lot of insecure people calling other people insecure. I think its time to move on.

    July 1, 2010 12:53 p.m.

    Need we remind you however of the overall series record?

    Utah leads, 53–34–4

    No need to remind me. I know the facts. How many of those 53 were before your lifetime? I'm guessing 35+ were before my time.

    I just can't ever get a handle on what a Utah fan will allow in an argument. It is either "don't talk about the past" or "lets include when you were an academy" and we were playing high schools.

    So which is it - we can only talk about the last year, 5, 7.5, 10, or infinity? Or no past at all and just project?

    For references folks the NCAA has a few distinct markers for tracking stats.

    1936-present, considered the poll era
    1950-present, considered the modern era of college football (WW's over, TV came into play, etc)
    1978-present, creation of Div-IAA (now FCS)

    and now more informally the BCS era (1998-present).

    But jumping and changing your criteria to suit an argument is weak.

    For this sites purpose we may also want to consider

    1999-present, MWC era
    2005-present, KWhitt, Bronco, TCU era
    1962-present, WAC/MWC era

    July 1, 2010 12:34 p.m.

    hedgehog | 11:12 a.m. July 1, 2010
    Seems to me that instead of crying about where Utah should rank within the MWC and projecting about where they will land in the PAC...

    I don't make comments/ascertions about where Utah should rank or where projecting where they would land in the Pac (I hope high for MWC purposes).

    I do however post facts about where Utah has finished in the MWC. Not should - but did.

    you should focus on how the Y is going to avoid finishing 4th in the MWC THIS year.

    Unlike you I know that is actually the coaches job. I don't believe that I some how have a hand in every tackle, score, or win like you seem to think you do.

    You might also want to do some soul searching into the reason(s) Y the tds will never, EVER be thought of as a Nationally significant program.

    Actually BYU is recognized and praised nationally I've never lived in Utah and for 40 years I've seen the praise the nation gives BYU vs Utah or other schools.

  • Jealous U
    July 1, 2010 12:28 p.m.


    The real argument is that BYU has AS MANY Top 25 finishes in the last FOUR years as Utah has in their best decade ever (four) and almost AS MANY Top 25 finishes as Utah has in its ENTIRE HISTORY (six).

    If it weren't for the religious bigots in the PAC 10, BYU would have been a shoo-in ahead of Utah.

    BYU's role will be to continue to be one of the top football programs nationally, regardless of BYU's conference affiliation, as evidenced by the fact that the Cougars have been perennial Top 25 finishers for the past third of a century (17 Top 25 Finishes in the last 33 years).

    If finishing in the Top 25 is such an insignificant accomplishment, why hasn't Utah accomplished it more than six times in their entire football history?

    July 1, 2010 12:23 p.m.

    Naval Vet | 11:11 a.m. July 1, 2010

    ESPN's all-time prestige rankings wasn't really "all-time". They ceased gathering stats after 1998, and most of ybU's points came while we were members of the WAC.

    Really? This was published Jan, 23 2009 titled "ESPN College FBS Prestige Rankings". Google it and you'll see this does not end after 1998. It actually didn't start until 1936 which is considered as the beginning of the Poll Era. So you are right it may be correct to not refer to it as all-time but by no means are you accurate by stating they don't consider Utah's best decade ever.

    Perhaps you are confused by the following listed under BYU:

    Through the decades: Through 1958: 87th | 1968: T-87th | 1978: 66th | 1988: 30th | 1998: 27th

    That would be where we stood at the end of those decades (not an individual decade rank but a cumulative rank) and in Jan 2009 we moved up to 25th.

  • hedgehog
    July 1, 2010 12:04 p.m.

    "Utah only finished in the Top 25 four times in the decade. BYU made the list FIVE times!"

    scenic view ,

    So that’s your argument? Really? BYU has one more top 25 ranking than Utah in the past 5 years…. So BYU should have been invited to the PAC? Really?

    If this was the Y’s argument for an PAC invitation I hope you could see Y the Y wasn’t on the radar.

    Honestly zoobs, you look absolutely foolish throwing around such sad arguments.

    Know your new role — stay down.

  • stanfunky
    July 1, 2010 11:42 a.m.

    An uninformed editorial, at best. BYU has been ranked at the end of 16 of the last 32 seasons, only 1/2 of the time. So to state that they are a "Top 20 team since the late 1970's" is a LIE. In fact, they have finished #20 or better only EIGHT times since 1977.

    Ranking the past decade, BYU has 3 finishes in the top 20, while Utah has 3 as well. So this really isn't a point of argument in why Utah was invited and BYU wasn't. The BCS bids likely have some sway, plus the Sunday play aspect, which has been well-documented. Whether it's fair or not to BYU to hold the 'not playing on Sundays' against them, you are going up against 10 other schools who are not nearly so religious minded, who have been playing on Sundays for years. Asking to shift that for 10 schools to allow one in is something those schools are not likely to accept.

  • scenic view
    July 1, 2010 11:34 a.m.

    Utah was invited because the Utes were the only available western school that fit the PAC 10's "culture".

    Utah only finished in the Top 25 four times in the decade. BYU made the list FIVE times!

  • Uteology
    July 1, 2010 11:31 a.m.

    Coug | 10:54 a.m. July 1, 2010
    Doug hit a nerve with Ute fans.


    More like PAC-10 hit a nerve with Zoob nation... with all the crying "why not us".

  • Ute_4_Life
    July 1, 2010 11:28 a.m.


    Need we remind you however of the overall series record?

    Utah leads, 53—34—4

    Yup, the U was 3rd in the league last year in a rebuiling year, a 2nd string running back, and a freshman quarterback. Where did you end up with the most prolific offense probably in school history? 2nd. Gonna be hard to top that from here on out.

    Gonna be hard for the U too, but Coach Whit is up to the challenge.

  • Uteology
    July 1, 2010 11:27 a.m.

    MUSSing with U | 10:37 a.m. July 1, 2010

    Since TCU joined the MWC, Utah has finished 3rd, or worse, FOUR out of the last FIVE years.


    12-0 and 13-0 all but makes up for it.

    How about you finishing 2nd worth playing in Vegas every year?

  • Uteology
    July 1, 2010 11:19 a.m.

    @scenic view | 9:53 a.m. July 1, 2010

    You're so boring, do you have an original thought or just copy and paste from one article to another.

    This article was hate on Utah because BYU "deserved" it more. It seems its only "entitlement" when poor are involved.

    Spare us all the 'entitlement and bigotry' reasons.

  • hedgehog
    July 1, 2010 11:12 a.m.


    Seems to me that instead of crying about where Utah should rank within the MWC and projecting about where they will land in the PAC — you should focus on how the Y is going to avoid finishing 4th in the MWC THIS year. You might also want to do some soul searching into the reason(s) Y the tds will never, EVER be thought of as a Nationally significant program.

    Would Utah have been considered for expansion if they hadn’t dominated the past decade? Absolutely not. The PAC invited the Utes because of there National success and cultural values. Trust me when I say this, if BCS conferences had to choose between BYU or Utah — they would all give the nod to the Utes every time.

    Truth hurts but you need to move one.

  • Naval Vet
    July 1, 2010 11:11 a.m.


    ESPN's all-time prestige rankings wasn't really "all-time". They ceased gathering stats after 1998, and most of ybU's points came while we were members of the WAC.

    This isn't the 80s, and we're not in the WAC anymore. In fact, in a short while, one of us will have moved on to the Conference of Champions.

    Have fun in the mid-majors where you belong. You deserve it.

  • Coug
    July 1, 2010 10:54 a.m.

    Doug hit a nerve with Ute fans.

    July 1, 2010 10:44 a.m.

    Ute_4_Life | 10:05 a.m. July 1, 2010
    Need we remind you Yners that CBSSports ranked the U as the 10th best football program of the decade?

    Where did the "nationally relevant, respected, and feared '84 champions" rank? A lowly 27th, below TCU and yup, Boise State. So much for national relevance, eh? Still hanging out at 3rd in the conference...

    No doubt you had a great decade. But where did Utah land on the All-time prestige rankings by ESPN?

    BYU #25
    TCU #31
    Utah #43

    All-time - that means even including the days where you dominated a one-sided rivalry. It also includes your impressive decade and 2 BCS bowl wins.

    And there are way to many stats that show Utah is more perenially 3rd in conference vs BYU. Just see last year's standing as item 1.

  • faction jackson
    July 1, 2010 10:42 a.m.

    BYU should (but won't) take a hard look at themselves after being snubbed by the pac. BYU football would have been a great addition to the Pac-10, no doubt. Pac-10 schools get extra attendance when BYU comes to play, so that would have been attractive also. So why didn't they make it?

    (1) Academic freedom is a serious issue. Professors at Pac-10 schools know about the issues BYU has had in the past with academic freedom, and they care about it.
    (2) Proposition Eight. I could go on for days about how foolishly this was handled by the church, and this is one of the ways it hurts.
    (3) Church leadership thinks they are the center of the known universe. This is just another way they aren't. BYU can go on being a big fish in a small pond, but Utah is far better off being part of a much bigger pie.

  • MUSSing with U
    July 1, 2010 10:37 a.m.

    "Still hanging out at 3rd in the conference... "

    Utah fans should be very familiar with how 3rd place feels like.

    The 10th best football program of the decade finished behind BYU and TCU in the MWC standings FOUR of the last FIVE years.

    Since TCU joined the MWC, Utah has finished 3rd, or worse, FOUR out of the last FIVE years.

  • UtahUtes1
    July 1, 2010 10:32 a.m.

    @BYUFAM1 | 8:04 a.m. July 1, 2010

    "Many of his facts are true yet the way he ascerts them are intended to start an outright slap and whine fest and he did his job of fanning the flames based on the number and type of comments. Question should be is that the type of job someone can go home and feel good about - intentionally causing others to spew hate?"

    That's nailed it. All of us need to take responsibility to not allow sports writers to fan the flames of indignation. Frankly, we are all pawns of the game they are playing.

    As far as I am concerned, the intent of this article was demean a strategy the University has toiled over for decades and achieved great success. I believe, scenic view | 9:53 a.m. July 1, 2010 - that is the reason Utah fans are fired up NOT because of some "inferiority complex" (wishful thinking on your part).

    The fact remains, if the Des News is not responsible enough to write in accordance with journalistic standards, then we need to be responsible enough to ignore their columns.

  • Ute_4_Life
    July 1, 2010 10:05 a.m.

    Need we remind you Yners that CBSSports ranked the U as the 10th best football program of the decade?

    Where did the "nationally relevant, respected, and feared '84 champions" rank? A lowly 27th, below TCU and yup, Boise State. So much for national relevance, eh? Still hanging out at 3rd in the conference...

  • scenic view
    July 1, 2010 9:53 a.m.

    My what a lot of insecure little brothers we have up on the hill.

    You'd think that a PAC 12 invite would salve the Utes' inferiority complex, but by the sheer volume of mean, hateful posts directed at BYU, it's obvious that Utah fans have a long way to go to shed that little brother mindset.

    July 1, 2010 9:43 a.m.

    Childish outbursts

    Doug - Yes

    @Cougars --Best Little Brothers | 8:40 a.m. July 1, 2010 - Yes

    @hedgehog | 5:54 p.m. June 30, 2010 - good post - I agree - the LDS Church would not want to be associated with many national brands and vice versa. Did you login at the library and walk away and someone else typed this well thought out post or did your mom come down to the basement and see your computer on? (LOL) and where were all the CAPS!!!

    There must have been a cosmic shift between you and NavalVet today as he got all your usual CAPS and rationale.

    Imagine that Doug can make Hedgehog sound rationale, NavalVet sound off his rocker, and me do an entire post with no stats - go figure (or was that a stat?).

    Just an observation/opinion but it seems like Utah fans must have a lot of anxiety over their future conference based on how much they are lashing out. Lots of pride-obviously, love of money and possible recruits-apparently, but underlying this all seems to be a lot of anxiety/fear.

  • Cougars --Best Little Brothers
    July 1, 2010 8:40 a.m.

    blah, blah, blah...
    Important stats:

    BCS bowls: Utah 2 BYU 0
    Research Institution: Utah Y BYU N
    AQ conference: Utah 1 BYU 0

    DEAL WITH IT!!!!


  • MUSSDad
    July 1, 2010 8:06 a.m.

    @UteMan | 10:58 p.m. June 30, 2010

    Doug, you can take another four off of that number (13,999,988).

    July 1, 2010 8:04 a.m.

    @BYU DUDE | 1:27 a.m.
    Acutally gymnastics is not a MWC sanctioned sport, teams participate in that outside of MWC alignment. The one title for Utah was women's regular season tennis (not the post season).

    Some other facts that have been debated.

    All time MWC records:
    BYU 59-23
    Utah 56-26

    Utah hands down had their best decade ever. BYU hands down had their worst 3 year run in over 40 years during this decade.

    Since 2005 (Bronco, Whitt, TCU)
    BYU 34-6
    TCU 33-7
    Utah 28-12

    "They have fielded the best football program in the Mountain West for years." I believe the facts support Doug's comment. He doesn't state anything about OOC/bowls but "in the MWC".

    Many of his facts are true yet the way he ascerts them are intended to start an outright slap and whine fest and he did his job of fanning the flames based on the number and type of comments. Question should be is that the type of job someone can go home and feel good about - intentionally causing others to spew hate?

  • Arynen
    July 1, 2010 6:09 a.m.

    @UteMan | 10:58 p.m.

    "How many of the remaining BYU "fans" that are marginal followers at best will now go to Utah games to see a higher level of competition in 2011?"

    You know, UteMan, the great thing about being a BYU fan is when people go to a BYU game, they're going to watch BYU. When people go to a Ute game, they go to see their opponents.

    July 1, 2010 1:27 a.m.

    258 comments and most of them are BYU haters. The article is spot on. As Utah fades away into oblivion and the ash heap of history, and becomes non relevant in the Pac 12 football. And there football stadium has 20,000 fans and the move backfires. Utahs 5 conference championships in 45 years will stay at 5 over the next 45 years. The Utes were not exactly dominating, Utah won one conference championship in men's and women's sports combined in all of last year in the MWC. And that was women's Gymnastics. Enjoy your two minutes of fame for they will fade away fast. good luck and good riddance.

  • ThunderBell
    July 1, 2010 1:17 a.m.

    How is it that BYU has a better conference record under Bronco than Utah does under Kyle. 34-6 vs. 28-12. Despite what "Navel Vet" and others have said I'm sure they played the same teams over the past 5 years.

    I say congrats Utah go kick some PAC.

    BYU continue to be the unique place you are and continue to make your case.

  • Silent Observer
    July 1, 2010 1:10 a.m.

    The Association of American Universities is a private organization and does not reflect a comprehensive view of research institutions in the U.S.

    To find a more complete view, go to The Center for Measuring University Performance and look at their 2009 Top American Research Universities Report. The University of Utah ranks 37 in the final list of the top 50. BYU is not included on the final list of 50.

  • JXD0157
    June 30, 2010 11:59 p.m.

    Obviously not all 14 million members are BYU fans. It would also be crazy to assume everyone of the approximately 7 million members in the U.S. are BYU fans. Anyway, it seems like it would make more sense to target a potential pool of 6-7 million people, than to target the SLC metro area which has 1-2 million people in it.
    I think it is safe to say there are more BYU fans than Utah fans. This is evidenced by the huge road support we get no matter where we go. Can the U say the same thing? I don't think so.
    It's funny how this move is the only move in college sports that had nothing to do with money...

  • Utes4Ever
    June 30, 2010 11:07 p.m.

    @ BluCoug | 10:45 p.m. June 30, 2010

    ... said the Coug posting a comment online on a Utah article ...

    Considering the source, I think we are fine.

  • PAC Member, are U?
    June 30, 2010 11:06 p.m.

    "gravy train" Opps!

  • UteMan
    June 30, 2010 10:58 p.m.

    So 14 million Mormons follow BYU???

    I think the number needs to be reduced to at least 13,999,992 since the (8) Mormons in my family are all season ticket holders at the U.

    How many of the remaining BYU "fans" that are marginal followers at best will now go to Utah games to see a higher level of competition in 2011?

  • BluCoug
    June 30, 2010 10:45 p.m.

    Ute fans are absolutely pathetic. It's it about time you all grew up and use that research education and do something good in the world?

  • Skierelmo
    June 30, 2010 10:44 p.m.

    The Pres of Cal all but said that lifestyle was a huge part of the descision!!! I believe the quote was "We won't allow a team that doesn't fit in with the Pac 10 culture"..... painting with a pretty broad stroke, so several things can be read into that not limited to but including BYU's funding and support of Prop 8, no Sunday games, and.... you guessed it "Research" departments

    Two other things....

    1. It's not what have you done, it's what have you done lately!! The BCS games got attention. BYU got attention after tha Oklahoma game, than threw it all away against FSU...

    2.WHAAAAAAA somebody call Whine-1-1 get a whambulence here STAT!!! It's over.... move on with your lives!!!!

  • PAC Member, are U?
    June 30, 2010 10:43 p.m.

    Correct! Utah's addition to the PAC is not due to research. It's due to they're the best in the state in football. Utah's move to the PAC solidifies the fact that the TDS's history is a "non-factor." It's all about what you've done recently. Everybody knows that. . .

    Utah's two BCS bowl invitations and victories solidified their spot in the new PAC 12. Big stadiums and 26 year old *NC mean nothing. If history would get you in the PAC, Utah's dominance over the TDS the past 91 years, and in conference would also solidify the PAC's commitment to Utah. Either way, it doesn't matter. Utah's on the grave train.

    *Didn't beat a single top AP 25 team that year (1984).

  • Utes4Ever
    June 30, 2010 10:28 p.m.

    "Utah is a great addition to the league, but BYU deserved equal treatment, especially if such matters were based purely on performance on the field."

    Hey Doug - didn't you just say it was all about money and football before this statement? And if this is a case, does BYU football really compare to Utah football over the past 10 years. Let's not kid ourselves here.

    But assuming BYU deserved equal treatment (and I believe they do) and both Utah & BYU are comparable in the amount of money they will bring into the conference & their performance on the football field, then what was it that tilted the decision in Utah's favor? The PAC 10 has their answer ... what's yours?

  • AllSeeingEye
    June 30, 2010 10:21 p.m.

    How can there be 250 comments in this thread without someone pointing out the obvious problem Mr. Robinson (I assume) and other BYU fan/Mormons have here--

    They detest having others define them and they don't like religous bigots.

    Yet, it seems perfectly OK for most of them to define what they think the PAC-10 should or should not have considered for entrance into its conference, and

    It is fine to accuse the presidents of the PAC-10 universities of religous bias against BYU when they have no way of knowing if that is the case or not.

    Did it occur to anyone out there that the PAC-10 folks may have not looked much futher than BYU's inflexibility on Sunday play as a reason not to seriously consider BYU?

    This could be seen as a compliment, not bigotry. They simply knew BYU wouldn't or couldn't give on this issue, and that was enough.

    This is not to say BYU was more qualified than Utah for the invitation, because that is not true.

    It's just to say that maybe the pot shouldn't call the kettle black, and that's whats going on here.

  • faction jackson
    June 30, 2010 10:18 p.m.

    my last post didn't make it for whatever reason---i would just point out that Prop Eight in California was likely a factor. The alumni, not necessarily football fans, of places like Cal and UCLA are pretty doggone liberal and would have lost it if BYU were put in the pac-10. In california that proposition has become a huge battleground and people are angry with the LDS church over it.

  • NVDawg
    June 30, 2010 10:18 p.m.

    You claim that BYU deserved equal treatment, “especially if such matters were based purely on performance on the field.” Absolutely a true statement, IF that were the case, but it’s not, not even close. Even if BYU’s athletic department generated more revenue than those of Utah and/or Colorado, it would not be invited to the Pac-10 for the exact reasons that have been given all along: it’s not a landmark research institution and its philosophy doesn’t gel with the conference’s current members. The fact that BYU has a huge fanbase and competes on a national level helps their case, but is nowhere near enough. While BYU might make sense in the Pac-10 based on finances and competitiveness, it absolutely does not make sense academically and philosophically, and for those reasons, BYU was properly left out of the fold.

  • BoringGuy
    June 30, 2010 10:15 p.m.

    One more thing, all of this whining, complaining, and lashing out doesn't seem reflective of a "proud" one-time national champion.

    Frankly, all the whining that's been happening for over two weeks now just isn't that becoming and has gotten a little embarrassing.

    Please move on and let the Utes get ready to represent our state in the PAC...

  • Duckhunter
    June 30, 2010 10:11 p.m.


    at how many more comments from utes than Cougars there are in here.

    You utes just can't get enough BYU articles, news, etc. can you? LOL

  • BoringGuy
    June 30, 2010 10:08 p.m.


    Great objective reporting. My favorite part is where you claim BYU has "dominated" MWC football.

    That's pretty hallarious given that BYU has only three outright conference football titles since the MWC was established 11 years ago.

    A few other things you should ask yourself, what is BYU's record in post-season bowls compared to Utah? What is BYU's record in BCS bowls compared to Utah? How many undefeated seasons has BYU had in the modern era vs. Utah?

    My advice is get your team ready to face the stiff competition in Boise and TCU -- and start setting yourself up for the Big 12 in the next round of expansion.

    And please quit whining.

  • PAC-12Ute
    June 30, 2010 9:18 p.m.

    You tds fans seem to think that Utah was invited to the PAC-12 and byu was left out only because of football. And sure utah has had our best seasons in the past couple years but hey, they were pretty great. But even though you can argue that one's football program is better than the other's, Utah's basketball program blows byu's out of the water. Sure they haven't been as good lately but Utah has been to the sweet 16 fifteen times compared to byu's 5, also byu has never been to the final 4 and utah has made 4 appearances. So yeah sure byu gets to the tournament about as much as utah, but in both sports when utah gets to the post-season they flat out win, and with byu they are only average in post-season play, so that is why utah was invited to go to the PAC-12 and not byu, so stop your whining tds fans and accept the reality that utah can play with the big boys and you can't.

  • nomad1
    June 30, 2010 9:10 p.m.

    14,000,000 mormons support byu football?

    He is wrong, I support Utah! I guess that means 13,999,999 mormons support byu football.

    Doug, do some research.

  • charlie24
    June 30, 2010 9:06 p.m.

    Goodness, He starts out with "OK, can we cut the crapola already?" - almost like someone will now get it. Then he starts the crapola again.
    This is like a woman insisting she is beautiful . But no one agrees. No one but the local BYU media and fans feel this way. Notice all the national articles that support the ‘why not byu’ thought. Now, like the girl that is not asked to dance, if you can be objective and listen, you might understand the why not.
    Last 10 years, Utah football is so much better than byu, mostly because out of state folks only remember the BCS games, maybe some memory of other bowl games. Big advantage Utah.
    The decade before, Utah and byu football was pretty even, maybe someone may remember some of the bowls. Very slight advantage Utah.
    The 70s and 80s, byu football was much better, but no one remembers, most headlights don’t go out that far. No advantage.
    Basketball, Utah has not been noticed recently but has many tournament . Byu has one in 18 years. Humm. Other sports, Utah gymnastics is about the only other sports team that sells tickets.

  • yojimbo
    June 30, 2010 8:48 p.m.

    So Mr. Robinson and such . . . so even if BYU didn't get in-part due to religious beliefs: Why would they even want to be there? That is so often the irony of BYU in many areas. They don't want to be 'of the world' but are continually upset and offended when they aren't included or accepted, or feel disrespected!

    Freaking be proud of what you are and who you represent and embrace it. If you didn't get in on basis of religious beliefs and such . . . be proud of it! I thought that is part of what the University is all about? Go independent for heavens sake if it's that big of deal to you. It's just football.

  • brettski
    June 30, 2010 8:00 p.m.

    Go Utes. This article was laughable and so are the BYU fans coming on here crying and complaining. Congrats to the Utes on their PAC 10 invite!

    Checkmate cougar fans. It's over! Utah football is the future, there is no question about it.

  • Y Ask Y
    June 30, 2010 7:33 p.m.

    14 million Mormons ALL watch and love BYU football???


    That has got to be one of the stupidest things I have ever read.

  • DTAlum
    June 30, 2010 7:19 p.m.

    BYUH - you think Yewtah fans are whining here, then wait until they have been in the PAC 10 for a few years and can't do any better than 7th or 8th. Then the whining will really begin! The arrogance shown by many Yewts thinking they are as good or better than the programs USC, UCLA, Oregon, Cal, ASU, etc have developed over the years is astounding. Me thinks the arrogance baton has offically been passed to our Yewtie friends up north!

  • hedgehog
    June 30, 2010 7:18 p.m.

    "Either they don't want the "Holy Rollers" of BYU and Notre Dame to take over the field or maybe the Pac 10 is afraid of being converted to "No Sunday Play"


    uhmmmm, no, the PAC10 would take ND in a heartbeat. Y must the zoobie always think they are on par with ND. Really, it's just so sad.

  • hedgehog
    June 30, 2010 7:12 p.m.

    "Wow! You're kidding me, right??? 75% (or more) of the posts here are from UTAH fans"


    This article is posted in the Utah section....


  • BYUH
    June 30, 2010 7:10 p.m.

    Congratulations Utah on your invite - really. You have put a solid football team on the field for the last 15 years or so and deserve to be in a major conference. But your fans are the most immature, self-serving fans I have ever seen. Try to suggest that BYU should be in a BCS conference as well, and the defenses go up. That chip on your shoulder is so large that I am not sure it will ever go away. Pretty pathetic - and clearly shows the "little brother" feeling so prevalent amongst Utah fans.

    Hopefully BYU gets into a AQ conference someday - but I am not holding my breath. In the meantime I will continue to support my Cougars - until the day they do away with athletics at BYU, which might not be too far off.

    Go Cougs!

  • UteMan
    June 30, 2010 7:01 p.m.

    The D-news is a joke. Hopefully this guy will be run out of town and we can actually get some un-biased reporting in this state that is not targeted at the LDS crowd.

    Harmon and this dude have no place reporting on PAC-12 teams so I hope to never see them try.

    Poor BYU! But..But..But..But..Were good too!!!

    This was a complete waste of time to read. Mcbribe started Utah's run, Texas was "never" going to the PAC-16 and BYU has not been the most dominant team in the MWC when it comes to football and that is all that matters.

  • BYUH
    June 30, 2010 6:58 p.m.

    Wow! You're kidding me, right??? 75% (or more) of the posts here are from UTAH fans. Talk about an inferiority complex! And who is whining on this article? Not BYU fans! This absolutely blows my mind.

    Rather or not the article is accurate is up for debate, but what can't be questioned is the response from Ute fans when they felt one DN writer (who is only expressing HIS opinion - though according to Ute fans it's BYU fans that are whining!) questioned their "manhood" - when in fact it was simply the author's OPINION about BYU (NOT UTAH)! INCREDIBLE!

    The response to this article speaks volumes about the mentality of most Utah fans! Wow, enjoy a good thing when you've got it and stop throwing a temper tantrum when ANYTHING is written about BYU.


  • Uteology
    June 30, 2010 6:56 p.m.

    MUSSing with U | 5:30 p.m. June 30, 2010

    If Utah finishes with anything less than a dominating undefeated MWC championship, all this Ute fan boasting will prove to be nothing but hot air.


    Whatever the season it still leads to the PAC-10.

    Which you have to admit isn't as bad as...

    Celebrating at Provo Airport for 1-0 "Quest" only to end up as Vegas Bowl's 3rd choice.

  • Naval Vet
    June 30, 2010 6:55 p.m.

    ybU is on a current streak of 4 10+ win seasons. Amid that streak however, the tdS beat 15 teams with a winning record, but only 6 of whom finished in the final polls.

    And they only won 2.

    One of which was in O/T...and at home.

    In that same 4-yr span, the Utes had 2 consecutive 10+ win seasons, beating 14 teams with winning records, 12 of whom finished in the final polls. 12! That's TWICE as many ranked teams as the tdS.

    And they beat 5! 5! Thats MORE THAN TWICE as many big-game victories than the tdS.

    One of those losses was a 3-pt letdown in O/T...and on the road.

    Ya REALLY gotta hand it to him for his honesty in this case. BronKo DID say, "the model has been set" with regards to scheduling easier opponents. Cue Northern Iowa.

    Did he provide all you zoobs with sprinkles on those frosted cupcakes?

    Do you zoobs think the Pac-10 was impressed with your padded W/L record? I couldn't help but notice that despite the recent conference carousel, you're still "mid-majors".

    I guess not.

  • AllSeeingEye
    June 30, 2010 6:54 p.m.

    How can there be 250 comments in this thread without someone pointing out the obvious problem Mr. Robinson (I assume) and other BYU fan/Mormons have here--

    They detest having others define them and they don't like religous bigots.

    Yet, it seems perfectly OK for most of them to define what they think the PAC-10 should or should not have considered for entrance into its conference, and

    It is fine to accuse the presidents of the PAC-10 universities of religous bias against BYU when they have no way of knowing if that is the case or not.

    Did it occur to anyone out there that the PAC-10 folks may have not looked much futher than BYU's inflexibility on Sunday play as a reason not to seriously consider BYU?

    This could be seen as a compliment, not bigotry. They simply knew BYU wouldn't or couldn't give on this issue, and that was enough.

    This is not to say BYU was more qualified than Utah for the invitation, because that is not true.

    It's just to say that maybe the pot shouldn't call the kettle black, and that's whats going on here.

  • Archie
    June 30, 2010 6:54 p.m.

    VegasUte | 6:36 p.m. June 30, 2010

    That's funny...Xpat needs a hug. Who's willing to do it?

  • Archie
    June 30, 2010 6:47 p.m.

    @Xpat | 5:19 p.m. June 30, 2010
    @Batman | 5:23 p.m. June 30, 2010

    What is it with BYU fans such as yourselves? At some point in your personal lives did you receive favorable treatment after calling someone a bigot? Maybe in grade school you called a teacher a bigot and your grade was subsequently raised. You must have been rewarded in some way after calling someone a bigot and you think it will help BYU just as it helped you. Why do you think it will help in this case?? Does it make you feel better? What is it??

    I have news for you...this is the real world where you receive what you earn. Applying labels to people and organizations does not work like it has for you in the past. Get over it.

  • VegasUte
    June 30, 2010 6:36 p.m.

    Somebody give Xpat a valium before his head pops. LOL

  • UtahUtes1
    June 30, 2010 6:35 p.m.

    IndianaCoug | 4:58 p.m. June 30, 2010

    Why would BYU haters care about your observation? You've tried to make an issue out of it on this board but I think we've shown your conclusion to be inaccurate.

  • Naval Vet
    June 30, 2010 6:13 p.m.


    "...I was at the game and it was a pathetic win....TCU OWNED YOU ON EVERY PLAY!!"

    I heard that game was sold out. How did YOU get tickets? And why were you even there? You're a zoob.

    I saw that game on TV. TCU owned us in the 1st Qtr: 200+ yrds, with a TD, and a Field Goal. But did you bother to stick around to watch the REST of the game? Coaches Whittingham and Anderson made some SERIOUS 2nd Qtr adjustments shut down the Frogs for the remainder of the game. The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Qtrs were ALL Utah. TCU's late 4th Qtr rally bid was as successful as your "Quest for Perfection": 3 short.

    Haha! That game is STILL giving you nightmares!

  • VegasUte
    June 30, 2010 6:12 p.m.

    Batman: Really? That's what you hang your hat on?

  • washcomom
    June 30, 2010 5:59 p.m.

    Either they don't want the "Holy Rollers" of BYU and Notre Dame to take over the field or maybe the Pac 10 is afraid of being converted to "No Sunday Play". What a concept!

  • hedgehog
    June 30, 2010 5:54 p.m.

    I'm sure the religious connotations had a large influence in the PAC10 passing on BYU. The "PAC" is an influential brand and only naturally is concerned about how that image is perpetuated on a National level. The LDS church is simply not a natural fit for the PAC and with the "brand" at stake - you simple have to pass on BYU. The perception from a National audiencee (wrong or right) is that there is a certain radical or "extreme" element associated with the LDS church.
    My guess is that the BYU (the LDS Church) will never truely assimmilate into the cultural fiber of America and to that extent - never be associcated to a national "brand".

  • Chad S
    June 30, 2010 5:52 p.m.

    You nailed it Mr. Robinson. It is also true that Utah leads the BCS bowl win score this decade, and that was the icing for the Pac-10.

    The irony is that in a couple years (if the middle of the MWC pick it up) the MWC will be in the running for an AQ BCS berth. That will put the champ of the MWC in a BCS bowl, which will be much easier than becoming the champ of the Pac-10. Not even the champ of the Pac-10 will have the clout to get into the #1 or #2 spot if the champs of the SEC and Big-12 are unbeaten.

    It will be interesting to watch the MWC champ play Utah in the Las Vegas bowl as the #5 or #6 Pac-10 team.

    Good job, though, Utes. You definitely deserve everything that's coming to you.

  • VegasUte
    June 30, 2010 5:49 p.m.

    Zoobs: here is your future!

    CTR now stands for "Choose the Red" - get used to it.

    The national media refers to Utah as a "RED" state - get used to it.

    A TV commentator recently said that it will be ugly for "Blue" this November, with that I completely agree - get used to it.

    Go Utes!

  • FreddyP
    June 30, 2010 5:47 p.m.

    If you pick someone for your club, you pick someone who is like you that you think will be fun to hang around with and has the same values.
    One school has good athletics and good academics. Another school has good athletics, good academics, a conservative religion to deal with and yhines all the time. Who would you choose?

  • SoCalUte92782
    June 30, 2010 5:45 p.m.

    To: Desert News Author

    PLEASE SPARE us your whining, bias and ungracious behavior.

    You have no basis to make the claim that a research university criteria over a school with a different directive had no bearing on the selection of Utah over BYU. This criteria was one credit on Utah's side of the ledger over BYU.

    As for church bias and all the things going against BYU, I wouldn't doubt it had some affect. But don't whine to the rest of the country about exclusion unfairness, when your own religion does the same thing.

  • FreddyP
    June 30, 2010 5:34 p.m.

    We have a TCU win, were's yours.

  • MUSSing with U
    June 30, 2010 5:30 p.m.

    All that really matters is whether the mighty Utes will finish their swan song in the MWC with a big splash or a belly flop.

    If the Utes are really an "elite" BCS team, as their fans constantly remind us, they shouldn't have any trouble "dominating" a weak non-BCS conference.

    If Utah finishes with anything less than a dominating undefeated MWC championship, all this Ute fan boasting will prove to be nothing but hot air.

  • Skippy
    June 30, 2010 5:28 p.m.

    Once again, the D-news and it's writers will do anything they can to get the BYU-UTAH fans all riled up! These stories are the only ones anyone comments on. Maybe they should try to fire up BYU and Boise now, or as the MTW commisioner stated "Wyoming and Colorado have one of the best MTW conf. rivalries" Try something new...this has gotten old.
    re:Joe Schome...YES!

  • Batman
    June 30, 2010 5:23 p.m.

    Thank you. I wish there were more articles like this. It is not right that the PAC 10 is a bunch of bigots and no-one is calling them out for it. I guess prejudice against Mormons is still tolerated. This unfortunately is not the only example.

  • VegasUte
    June 30, 2010 5:12 p.m.

    Truth: That TCU win just kills you, doesn't it! HA HA HA

  • I Will Be Till I Die
    June 30, 2010 5:04 p.m.

    @TRUTH: Judging from the rosters (winningest QB ever, best RB / TE in school history, etc.), BYU should have beat Utah by a lot more than a meager 3 points, and in OT at that! Joe Dale and Sylvester Stevenson gave BYU a gift when they tackled each other instead of Andrew George.

    So along the same lines as your post, are you then going to say your 2009 win over Utah was pathetic? Didn't think so. So quit pumping your chest!

  • IndianaCoug
    June 30, 2010 4:58 p.m.

    RE: UtahUtes1

    "I'm willing to bet that you have gotten a lot of mileage out of your story."

    Sadly, I have never had to tell this "story" (which is still just my opinion based on my own experiences) because the only people who care are BYU haters, and I don't hang out with many of them.

  • Big_Ben
    June 30, 2010 4:55 p.m.

    @ Truth

    wow, someone needs to calm down! sheesh!

  • UtahUtes1
    June 30, 2010 4:47 p.m.

    @IndianaCoug | 3:28 p.m. June 30, 2010

    I also have two graduate degrees, one of them from an Ivy League school. I have friends who graduated with me who went to Harvard for MBAs and others who went on to dental school. My doctor, a specialist, went to medical school at Utah.

    In my opinion it would be best to abandon your conclusions based on what you have seen at church in your area. That might be a difficult task for you to accomplish. I'm willing to bet that you have gotten a lot of mileage out of your story.

    June 30, 2010 4:47 p.m.

    Utah Brags alot about their win over Alabama and the BCS....but lets not forget that TCU kicked your can all over the Rice Bowl in 200whatever and gave you a quit pumping your chests...I was at the game and it was a pathetic win....TCU OWNED YOU ON EVERY PLAY!! Stupid Coach beat himself!

  • I Will Be Till I Die
    June 30, 2010 4:42 p.m.

    @Benny2297: don't be so sure. In 2006, Jan 1st was a Sunday, but the Rose Bowl was played on the 4th that year (it was the NC game). The time before that, in 1995, the game was played on the 2nd.

    Doesn't it stink when facts get in the way of your "neener-neener" posts?!

  • patriot
    June 30, 2010 4:26 p.m.

    The research school thing is a big deal to the PAC 10. The U has a med school (research) and the Y is a private teaching school (mostly business/law). A research school is higher rated academically than a teaching school... unless the teaching school is like MIT for engineering. Doesn't matter if you agree - the PAC 10 presidents think so and that is that. The U has the two BCS wins which is HUGE and the Y hasn't even broken into the BCS yet. All the other wins the Y has really means nothing (Vegas bowl, MWC champions, etc..) to the national audience.

  • Uteology
    June 30, 2010 4:15 p.m.

    IndianaCoug | 3:28 p.m. June 30, 2010
    I have yet to hear any Ute fans suggest that the opposite may be true (that there are indeed more Ute grad students across the country than BYU grads).


    I have no idea, what I do know is I hold two graduate degrees and good friends that went to Utah also went to graduate schools: Temple (Denitist), Arizona (Medical), ASU (Computer Science), Berkley (Computer Engineering), and Georgia Tech (Computer Engineering).

  • MOUte
    June 30, 2010 4:11 p.m.

    @Patrick | 3:33 p.m. June 30, 2010

    I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're telling me. What does research have to do with BYU?

    Answer: NOTHING!

    June 30, 2010 4:04 p.m.

    Uteology | 3:51 p.m. June 30, 2010
    BYU deserved to win in 1984 under those rules, Utah deserves to be in the PAC-10 under thier rules.

    Agree with you on both points.

    But you have to admit Utah was light years closer to #1 then the team playing in Vegas during the same period.

    And the poll rankings reflect accordingly.

  • Jimmy James
    June 30, 2010 4:00 p.m.

    To throw in my 2 cents:

    While I have no doubt that BYU being owned by the LDS church is most likely what kept them out of the Pac-10, to say that that equates to the Pac-10 hating Mormons isn't really all that accurate either.

    After all, if they hated Mormon's, why would they invite Utah, a school where 1/3 to 1/2 of all students are Mormon, make the deal with a University President who is also Mormon, in order to get a football team lead by a Mormon coach (and numerous Mormon players).

    They don't hate Mormon's, but were obviously uncomfortable with the fact that BYU is run by the LDS church.

    And while BYU students are on average very bright and have some excellent post-graduate programs (such as their MBA program and Law School), I'm sure that not having a medical school or as much strength in the basic sciences did hurt them in the overall analysis of who to invite.

    My take on the situation: BYU is different than most Universities on purpose. Take pride in that and just do your best wherever you are.

    June 30, 2010 3:59 p.m.

    MOUte | 3:42 p.m. June 30, 2010
    @BYUFAM1 | 2:55 p.m. June 30, 2010

    You take old vs new rules and craft them in a fashion that suits BYU and then argue that your logic can't be applied to different circumstances. Good grief. Why don't you just stick to the will be less confusing for you.

    Actually I believe I point out clearly that the rules are very close to the same with the exception of bowls aligning #1 vs #2 now when they did not in the past. The rules of being voted #1 are the same for 2/3 of the BCS formula. Now can anyone find a point where the consensus #1 in both polls was not still in the championship game in the BCS era?

    There is zero twisting/crafting of the rules. Ute fans are the ones that try to twist it by saying they have 2 NC under the old rules. When clearly, as pointed out, Utah has never been voted #1 in any poll that mattered, which is what makes a team #1.

    Fact: BYU 1984 NC

    Moute you are the one that sounds confused.

  • MUSSDad
    June 30, 2010 3:58 p.m.

    @PAC12 | 3:42 p.m. June 30, 2010

    Thank you for putting some perspective around this never ending argument. My kids' experience is very similar to yours and it is sad, very sad. All of us need to grow up.

    Doug Robinson and Dick Harmon are sitting back right now laughing at every one of us. Their mission for the day is accomplished. Look at the attention they garnered for their news paper.

  • jazzfanz
    June 30, 2010 3:58 p.m.


    My post to show that all of the departments (Chemistry, Biology, Physics, Math, Earth Science,...)in the science areas of the UofU are ranked in the top 50, while those of BYU are not in the top 100 or non-ranked.

    BYU's fans don't accept the fact that Utah was invited to the PAC 10 because they have the better research univertities. Well, this US news ranking just prove that. When talking about research, we are talking about real science, not like history research or other non-science research or I should call it a literature search or an observation. You brought in the ranking of business and law departments,...How are these related to research and science?

  • Ragnar Danneskjold
    June 30, 2010 3:56 p.m.

    Re: IndianaCoug
    You're right. I'm not so sure why people are so upset about your statement that is clearly just your opinion and experience. BYU does have more undergrad students in general though. You also mentioned that it was because of your ward that you are basing your opinion that there are more grad students. That could obviously skew the numbers a bit.
    Also, Utah offers more grad programs (that's kind of the point a lot of people have been making), so some students might just continue their work in SLC.
    Overall though, I think you are right that many BYU students are prepared for academic success. I'm not sure why people think that because you are saying BYU does well, that means that you are saying Utah does not.
    They are both good schools.

  • SoCalUtahFan
    June 30, 2010 3:54 p.m.

    @L.A...Has BYU ever had home games in the same year with TCU and Utah?

    Every year that BYU has Utah @ home, they also have TCU @ home. Last year, BYU lost to TCU at home.
    In all fairness, TCU has the toughest 3-team schedule with Utah, BYU. They always have either BYU or Utah on the road every year.

  • Uteology
    June 30, 2010 3:51 p.m.

    @BYUFAM1 | 2:55 p.m. June 30, 2010
    "After the bowls you had AP #2 and Coaches #4 - still not close to a consensus #1"...

    But you have to admit Utah was light years closer to #1 then the team playing in Vegas during the same period.

    Speaking of "deserving" the 1984 team had a SOS of around 100. Please name another national title winner with such easy schedule.

    BYU deserved to win in 1984 under those rules, Utah deserves to be in the PAC-10 under thier rules.

  • Benny2297
    June 30, 2010 3:49 p.m.

    2011 season, Utah's first.
    Rose Bowl is on a Sunday.
    Utah may or may not be there.
    I promise BYU won't be!

  • Archie
    June 30, 2010 3:49 p.m.

    Gorum The Old | 2:58 p.m. June 30, 2010

    "If BYU was not affiliated with the LDS church, would they still be left out of the PAC 12?"

    Ok, I've seen this comment several times and I have to wonder why those who keep using it think that if BYU was not affiliated with the LDS church it would even exist? BYU isn't just "affiliated" with the church it is OWNED by the church. You do realize that, don't you?? Do you understand the difference, Gorum?? There is no option.

  • MOUte
    June 30, 2010 3:42 p.m.

    @BYUFAM1 | 2:55 p.m. June 30, 2010

    You take old vs new rules and craft them in a fashion that suits BYU and then argue that your logic can't be applied to different circumstances. Good grief. Why don't you just stick to the will be less confusing for you.

    ...btw, can you tell me who the "you" is in your post? Who/what are you referring to??? Never mind...I don't care.

  • PAC12
    June 30, 2010 3:42 p.m.

    I am tired of all this jealous finger pointing by BYU. I am a BYU grad,as well as an active "Mormon". I moved here to go to school and after attending BYU an a few years living here I quickly lost interest in BYU sports due to the we should win because we are "Gods School".

    This article is biased and poorly written. Bits and pieces are true, but the reality of the situation is that there were many factors why Utah was selected, and BYU was not. In the end Utah is a better fit, and was thus invited. BYU fans can stamp their feet and cry why they weren't included, but it doesn't matter.

    It's over and point out all the made up reason and facts will not change it. My kid plays sports at the U now, and I am happy she made that decision for her major, but have been embarassed how BYU fans (good Mormons) have treated her and our family for going to Utah. There are atleast 6 mormon here that are NOT BYU fans now. It's time for everyone to grow up!

    June 30, 2010 3:37 p.m.

    Before others start bashing I want to point out that DN didn't post my first response to this article where I in amazement referenced that I felt the article was intended to antagonize and was out of line (I used different words they apparently found offensive - flaming bag).

    At any rate - I am not delusional thinking that the Pac10 pick didn't happen for Utah. Or that BYU will magically have a different identity that would make other conferences pick them.

    I wish Utah the best - you wanted it - now you have it.

    My biggest thoughts are around how everything they do over there will reflect the image of the MWC for good or bad for several years. Do well the MWC looks strong. Do poorly and the MWC looks weak.

    Because of 2 BCS games America's opinion will be that Utah was the best the MWC had to offer. BYU has won 41.6% of all MWC titles. Utah follows with 15.3%, NM 9.7%, TCU & SDSU at 9.1%. But take into account TCU's tenure they rise to 20% of available titles in their 5 years. Utah rates #3 overall in conference athletics.

  • Patrick
    June 30, 2010 3:33 p.m.

    Hey MOUte, I didn't think you cared about anything BYU. But here you are again.

    Typical Yewt that perpetuates the "little brother" syndrome.

  • IndianaCoug
    June 30, 2010 3:28 p.m.

    Wow... I'm surprised my one opinion ruffled so many feathers. No, I have no evidence for my claim... it is based purely on my experience living in Utah, Florida, Connecticut, and Indiana. I just wanted to put the idea out there. I have yet to hear any Ute fans suggest that the opposite may be true (that there are indeed more Ute grad students across the country than BYU grads).

  • Naval Vet
    June 30, 2010 3:17 p.m.


    "Imagine that, someone drawing a grand conclusion based solely on the microcosm of his own surroundings! Sounds like EVERY zoob I know."


    June 30, 2010 3:15 p.m.

    MOUte | 2:24 p.m. June 30, 2010

    Forgive me I didn't include the 2004 season where Utah did reach as high as #5 in the AP and #6 in the Coaches. Still not #1 for 3 regular season weeks and after the bowls. And regardless about what you say about the old/new rules 2/3 of the current rules are identical to the old rules. The 3rd part actually has boosted Utah over the years but still not up to #1. The biggest difference of the new/old rules is Oklahoma/Washington would have played BYU with today's rules. Instead Washington, which could have played BYU in the Holiday Bowl because they were not the Pac10 champs, chose to avoid BYU. I'm sure they got paid more money to play/beat OK in the Orange bowl but they lost their opportunity to be the 1984 NC. The national voters (media/coaches) spoke then and they still speak today on who is worthy to be #1 in any given year.

  • ET
    June 30, 2010 3:14 p.m.

    Wow - there is a lot of hater-ade on this board.
    Congrats Utes.....BYU I'm sure will get to a big conference sooner or later, or perhaps the MWC will become a an AQ

  • L.A.
    June 30, 2010 3:00 p.m.

    Both Coaches took over the respective football program in 2005. Kyle from Urban a program at the top. Bronco from Gary Crowton a program in disarray.

    Kyle - 47-17 Overall 28-12 in the MWC
    Bronco - 49-15 Overall 34-6 in the MWC

    I don't have the time to look it up but I think I am right in saying that both times the Utes went to BCS games they had home games with both BYU and TCU. Has BYU ever had home games in the same year with TCU and Utah?

    Does it matter?

    Just wondering?

  • L.A.
    June 30, 2010 2:58 p.m.

    Well, Well, Well Rock writes an opinion piece and the trolls go nuts.

    In my "opinion" Rock makes several good and valid points. Some comments do as well. No time to address them all but I will add a few thoughts.

    How many of you vitriolic posters have talked to any PAC-10 A.D.'s? The choices for Colorado and Utah were made by the Presidents of the Universities not the A.D's. At least 1 PAC-10 A.D. said he thought most of his fellow A.D.'s would have voted for BYU to be in the mix. But they knew it would not happen because of the Sunday play rule at BYU. The same A.D. said he was sure BYU would have consistently been in the top half of the league in football and had an excellent overall athletic program that would have fit very well into the PAC (even better than either of the other schools). That's his opinion, so take it as an opinion not some factual statement.

  • Gorum The Old
    June 30, 2010 2:58 p.m.


    3) BYU brings more television sets, travels better, and constantly sells out its stadium which is 50% bigger than Utah's. Revenue wise, BYU brings more

    4) The biggest reason that Utah is in the Pac 12, and the reason that they are a much better fit is that they are not BYU. If BYU was not affiliated with the LDS church, would they still be left out of the PAC 12?

    Hard to say. All BYU fans say "NO!" And all Utah Fans say "YES!" But anyone who says that BYU's LDS association is not the major(or at least a major) cause of BYU not even being considered and Utah getting in is fooling themselves.

    Nothing stirs the blood like religion and politics, and to some PAC 10 Presidents tend to think the LDS church is the antithesis of their own beliefs. Hopefully (for their sakes) thats not quite true, but while they believe it, BYU will never be considered.

    Don't get me wrong. Utah has definately earned it. But they are not the only ones.

    June 30, 2010 2:55 p.m.

    MOUte | 2:24 p.m. June 30, 2010
    @BYUFAM1 | 12:54 p.m. June 30, 2010

    Yeah, and Utah would have 2 (count'em two) National Championships under the same rules that BYU received theirs 25+ years ago. It works both ways, bro.

    Really? Because BYU got theirs because the polls (all that mattered + some) voted them to be #1 with 3 weeks left in the season and after the bowls.

    Tell me again when any of the major polls voted Utah to be #1?

    The higest Utah has ever been during the season is #6 in the BCS poll and that was with a computuer boost. Both of the voting polls put you at #7 which is a far cry from #1. After the bowls you had AP #2 and Coaches #4 - still not close to a consensus #1 or a record book with the NCAA recognizing you as the NC.

    If you had come close to what BYU did under the old/new rules you would have been in the title game, you were not. And I never claimed BCS games for BYU - just pointing out the comparable flaw in our visitors stats.

  • optimist
    June 30, 2010 2:54 p.m.

    It doesn't matter anymore why BYU got left behind while Utah got accepted into the Pac 10. We are not going to change, (right or wrong). The same things that kept us out of the Pac 10 will continue.

    The questions are:

    1.) Will other BCS conferences accept us without
    making the changes from what kept us out of the
    Pac 10?

    2.) Will the Independents accept us?

    3.) Where do we go from here?

    4.) What are the doors that have been opened for BYU
    that were not open up to a week ago?

    5.) What came out of the biggerst Sports News
    Conference where both BYU and Utah officials
    were in attendance with the main topic being

    6.) What is all the exciting things that are
    happening regarding our Sports program and the
    BCS since that meeting that was not already
    happening before a week ago?

  • dhsalum
    June 30, 2010 2:46 p.m.

    I agree with the title of this article but thats about it. I agree with a lot of utah fans on here that the rest sounds like crying. However, I will definitely enjoy every byu victory now even more with the all the ute fans new superior thinking.

  • VegasUte
    June 30, 2010 2:44 p.m.

    Re: IndianaCoug:
    "but at the Big 10 school where I teach there are considerably more BYU than UofU grads who attend our three wards (probably about 50 to 5), and who are enrolled in graduate programs" .... "I never said graduates from the U don't go on to graduate school. I simply stated that I believe BYU produces more."

    Imagine that, someone drawing a grand conclusion based solely on the microcosm of his own surroundings! Sounds like EVERY zoob I know. BTW, I have a graduate degree!

    The future is bright! The future IS Crimson!

  • BP
    June 30, 2010 2:39 p.m.

    I hope Utah continues to show what a farce the BCS is by winning at least their division during one of the first two years (before the team is officially recognized as a PAC-10 school, which will take three years).

    I just hope Ute fans don't start defending the BCS. They fought so hard to prove the injustices of the BCS system, it would be sad to see them sell out and start defending the system (I know Whittingham never will, which makes me glad).

    BYU fans: its tough. However, at the risk of sounding sanctimonious, when your team is a private, religious university, you should expect to be sleighted.

    Utah fans: Just because your rival was left out in the cold for religious/ideological reasons doesn't take away what you have accomplished. Be grateful for what you have, and ignore the bitter BYU fans. But don't use this situation as a way to tell everybody that your school is academically superior or athletically superior. You start sounding like pious hypocrites, and that designation is usually reserved for us BYU fans.

  • Gorum The Old
    June 30, 2010 2:36 p.m.

    Garbage article. Worthless. He even did a poor job of supporting BYU.

    Reasons Utah was invited over BYU (in order of increasing importance:

    1) Tier 1 research school.

    2) 2 BCS wins

    3) Not BYU.

    The BYU rebuttal

    1) BYU has better overall academics. According to US News and World report, BYU's Academics would put them at #6 in the Pac 12 behind the CA schools and UW. Utah is #11 ahead only of OSU.

    2) BYU has a significantly better athletics program (see Sargin rankings) and has beaten Utah 3/4 in football and 7/8 in basketball.

    3) BYU has a bigger stadium, a bigger fan base, more TV sets, and travels better than Utah.

    All of these points are true, but some matter more than others.

    The comparison:

    1) Academics. Least important factor. The PAC 12 perfers research facilities, plus graduate research is a lot more visible than overall academic quality. Here Utah gets the nod.

    2) Athletics. 2 BCS wins are Huge, but that, womens gymnastics, and the occasional good Basketball team is most of what they offer. BYU's athletics are much more on par with the PAC 12. Thletically, slight edge to BYU.

  • BP
    June 30, 2010 2:30 p.m.

    I'm not upset about Utah getting invited to the PAC-10...In fact, I think its the best move the BCS has made in recent years (because Utah has exposed them as a fraud a few times this decade). I can even understand why BYU in not even on the PAC-10 radar (ideologies are typically more important than money). What irritates me are the excuses given for why Utah was chosen over BYU.

    -Utah was not chosen over BYU because its a better school. If college athletics were based off of research money, Harvard would be a Big East team by now (and Washington State and Colorado would not be in the PAC-10).

    -BYU was not left out of the PAC-10 because they haven't gone to a BCS bowl game. Arizona, UCLA and Stanford have never been in BCS bowl games. More than half of all BCS teams have not been to a BCS bowl game. While it no doubt helped Utah to be a BCS bowl buster, the PAC-10 invitation was not based on two great seasons (and Ute fans sell their team short by saying otherwise).

  • Dr. Vinny Boombahtz
    June 30, 2010 2:28 p.m.

    The entitlement attitude has got to go. Nobody is out to get BYU, and it is an horrible character trait to continue with. Following are just a couple of examples.

    1. In 1984 BYU is national champs, not based on beating the 2nd best team in the country (as is needed now), but on votes. Obviously nobody was out to get you there.

    However, in 1996 BYU is passed over for the 4th major bowl spot in favor of Notre Dame, and everybody claims that their is bias against BYU. Not because Notre Dame could generate more money, no only because of bias. Law suits are threatened against the bowl alliance, and the result is the BCS.

    2. Ty Detmer receives the Heisman Trophy and Luke Stahley receives the Doak Walker award by votes from the national media.

    However, Dennis Pitta does not receive the John Mackay award, and it is because of bias against BYU.

    If there was real bais against BYU, then BYU would not receive the many awards that they have over the years. Can we admit everytime they don't get something, it is not becasuse of bias.

  • MOUte
    June 30, 2010 2:24 p.m.

    @BYUFAM1 | 12:54 p.m. June 30, 2010

    Yeah, and Utah would have 2 (count'em two) National Championships under the same rules that BYU received theirs 25+ years ago. It works both ways, bro.

  • Uteology
    June 30, 2010 2:19 p.m.

    IndianaCoug | 1:20 p.m. June 30, 2010
    I never said graduates from the U don't go on to graduate school. I simply stated that I believe BYU produces more. I'd love to hear evidence to the contrary.


    You "believe" or do you have "evidence" BYU produces more graduate students?

    Since you made the claim shouldn't you provide "evidence" to support your opinion?

    Can anyone guess the ONLY major univeristy that is censored by AAUP for the "lack of academic freedom"? Maybe the PAC-10 took that into consideration.

    Regardless, with 40 year tradition at BYU it's just not "elite" enough to be in the SEC, Big 12, Big 10, ACC, Big East.

  • SoCalcoog
    June 30, 2010 2:18 p.m.

    @UWFan: "See you on September 4th Cougars. We will enjoy...reintroducing you to Steve Sarkisian."

    Like you did to Norm Chow last year? Like we did to his '08 Conf. of Champions team, handing them their worst loss in nearly 80 years? LOL!

    This time...try to avoid the unsportsmanlike conduct least the MWC refs will call it right.

    Too bad you scheduled with this 'mid-major' team that has some minor frustration venting to release in their home opener...not sure how you will be able to enjoy this reunion!

  • Independent
    June 30, 2010 2:06 p.m.

    This blog didn't criticize Utah. He went out of his way to say that the Utes deserved being admitted to the PAC. He's just saying it's a shame BYU got left out, because they deserve it too. There are so many comments on here rubbing it in the face of BYU fans that they didn't get invited. Why is this? It shows your true character. An article congratulates the Utes on making it into the PAC, and the fans respond by bad-mouthing BYU? How disgusting. The fact is, neither Utah nor BYU should have to grovel at the feet of BCS conferences for a chance to play for a national championship. Ute fans who believe that BYU doesn't deserve to be in a BCS conference need to let go of their hatred and look at things objectively.

  • spokaloo
    June 30, 2010 2:02 p.m.

    Excellent article that cuts through the PC. I agree with it 100% except the part about being as attractive as ND. Utah has earned it, but Ute fans who think they deserve it on athletic merits more than BYU are just wrong and delusional.

  • Anne26
    June 30, 2010 2:01 p.m.

    I have no idea how long the BYU faithful will whine and complain about their not being invited to the PAC-10. However, I don't think we Utah fans should give them the time of day, and I definitely don't think we should let them pull us into their tantrums. BYU is in the rearview mirror and this Utah fan couldn't be happier.

  • SoCalUtahFan
    June 30, 2010 1:49 p.m.

    To all (and I mean all) Cougars fan:

    Most important stat:

    AQ Conf: Utah 1 BYU 0

    Deal with it.

  • UU702
    June 30, 2010 1:49 p.m.

    Stats, stats, stats...The only one that matters in this debate is byu 0-3 in BCS conference invites with losses to Utah, Colorado and Baylor. This is only the start...think losing the last rivalry game (for a couple years at least), Utah's inaugural PAC 10 conference game hoopla. Bottom line is the reason doesn't matter beyond the fact they aren't wanted. byu is a lot closer to SMU than Notre Dame.

  • Naval Vet
    June 30, 2010 1:48 p.m.


    If ybU alumni are so flush in graduate school, then they can quit their whining and finally join an AQ conference AFTER they graduate.

    Well, as long as they don't go to grad school in Provostan that is.

    Go zoobs.

  • jking
    June 30, 2010 1:47 p.m.

    I am a BYU alum, and I love BYU football. However, to say that BYU deserved consideration for the Pac 10 just because Utah got in is ridiculous. The bottom line is that the Pac 10 can invite anyone it wants to, and it has not, does not, and probably never will want to invite BYU. That is all right, whatever the reason--even if that reason were(and I do not believe that it this) the Pac 10 hates Mormons.

    While they're may be some secular biggotry at play here, I think that there is some academic snobbery at play as well. But either way, I do not see the point in becoming embittered over not getting an invite to a conference that flat does not want us. I also don't understand why many BYU fans seem so surprised by our not getting an invite. The Pac 10 has been consistent in its intent not to extend an invite. BYU has not detrimentally relied on meaningful representations that the Pac 10 would extend an invitation along with Utah. The Mountain West is improving. And there are many other conferences that may actually want us some day.

  • OB
    June 30, 2010 1:44 p.m.

    All these comments crack me up. The bottom line to this is doesn't matter how 'relevent' or 'deserving' you perceive the TDS to be. The PAC 12 chose who they chose because...(wait for it) they can! Perhaps they just disliked the stolen Aggie blue of your uniforms....they could choose whomever they wanted and it didn't have to be 'deserved'.

  • flex
    June 30, 2010 1:41 p.m.

    It is said the TRUTH will get negative reaction from "the inferiority minded masses"!...So true!!

  • Naval Vet
    June 30, 2010 1:38 p.m.

    [2 of 2]

    Re: Danish American @ 11:09 a.m. June 30, 2010

    ...Fate or luck or whatever you want to call it lent the Utes a hand. They were an enigma on the football field for decades; they couldn't win a conference title and rarely won more than six or seven games a year... The Utes caught another break when six teams from the Big 12 Conference turned down the Pac-10 offer to join the league, and they caught another break because their top rival for the invitation was considered to have too much baggage. So there it is: Utah will be playing for Rose Bowl or the BCS national title game, while BYU will be playing for the Las Vegas Bowl, and there's nothing fair about it.”

    Yeah...I think I read that somewhere in this article.

  • Big_Ben
    June 30, 2010 1:37 p.m.


    You are hilarious. Your sample size and the conclusions you have drawn are so laughable, I dont know where to start. But hey, more power to you my acadmeically-challenged friend.

  • Naval Vet
    June 30, 2010 1:36 p.m.

    [1 of 2]

    Re: Danish American @ 11:09 a.m. June 30, 2010

    “Maybe now you won't feel the need to compare everything to BYU. I just don't understand why most of the posts seem to want to diminish the success at one school by putting the other one down.”

    Wasn’t diminishing the success at one school by putting the other down the whole point of the article?

    “Utah is a great addition to the league, but BYU deserved equal treatment, especially if such matters were based purely on performance on the field... They have fielded the best football program in the Mountain West for years... Their football stadium has 20,000 seats more than Utah's. They have a world-class track and field stadium. Utah doesn't have a track or a men's track team... The Utes happened to be in the right place in the right time...But the Cougars should be running off to the big time with them...

    June 30, 2010 1:35 p.m.

    You are about three weeks late on this topic Doug.

    Just to appease BYU fans, let's say that their exclusion from the PAC 12 was based on religious ideology, bigotry against Mormons, and a perception of academic freedom, etc. So we are saying that for argument's sake that this is all true. Based on that assumption of societal exclusion for reasons having nothing to do with sports prowess do Cougar fans feel better now? Or worse? Let us all stop this argument already. It is petty and very unintelligent. I wish BYU well, I hope we do well in our new conference, period. Go Utes! Go Cougars!

  • Big_Ben
    June 30, 2010 1:33 p.m.


    You are hilarious. Your sample size and the conclusions you have drawn are so laughable, I dont know where to start. But hey, more power to you my acadmeically-challenged friend.

  • DistantUte
    June 30, 2010 1:27 p.m.

    Ha! Funniest Article Ever. Were you weeping while you wrote this?

  • Naval Vet
    June 30, 2010 1:25 p.m.

    RE @ 10:37 a.m. June 30, 2010

    "This article is dead on!...I don't think Colorado got invited because of it's great football team. They have never gone to a BCS bowl."

    Your conclusion was dead wrong. CU won a Nat'l Championship in 1990, and last played in the Fiesta Bowl in 2001.

  • IndianaCoug
    June 30, 2010 1:20 p.m.

    RE: UtahUtes1
    "By the way, I am a graduate of the University of Utah and hold a graduate degree from an Ivy League school. Should I be taking offense to your comment? "

    Be my guest, you can be offended if you want. I never said graduates from the U don't go on to graduate school. I simply stated that I believe BYU produces more. I'd love to hear evidence to the contrary.

  • UtahUtes1
    June 30, 2010 1:01 p.m.

    @IndianaCoug | 12:38 p.m. June 30, 2010

    Please provide some details because your attempt at being a credible authority is lost in your comment "but at the Big 10 school where I teach there are considerably more BYU than UofU grads who attend our three wards..."

    By the way, I am a graduate of the University of Utah and hold a graduate degree from an Ivy League school. Should I be taking offense to your comment?

  • Go Utes
    June 30, 2010 12:55 p.m.

    To: BYU Fan who also likes Utah (11:31 a.m.)

    Thanks for reading my post and responding.

    First of all, I did not say that every BYU fan is arrogant. I said that a conference would not want those who are arrogant, including the author of the article, Mr. Robinson. Neither you nor I have met every BYU fan. I agree that not all are arrogant. I don't think either of us have enough evidence to declare whether most are or are not. I know many wonderful BYU fans and we have fun ribbing each other about the rivalry, which is a great, fun rivalry. I do think, however, that far too many are arrogant prats who are unbecoming of a school that purports to be a religious institution.

    Second, know that my post was meant to have some humor. I know that not every BYU fan's testimony is tied to the team. I'm sure very few are. I have heard, however, BYU football discussed in fast and testimony meeting: a sad commentary.

    As said, the football program will one day follow Ricks College football. Religion and football do not mix. BYU well displays this.

    June 30, 2010 12:54 p.m.

    UWfan | 11:48 a.m. June 30, 2010
    I decided to comment when one poster referenced Washington State and Arizona State as having never been in a BCS bowl game...WSU has been in 10...ASU has been in 15...

    Note posters on here would not consider it a BCS bowl game until the actual creation of the BCS regardless of it was the same bowl or not. To be fair to everyone lets consider bowls that were during the time they were part of the Bowl Coalition/Alliance as well.

    AZ (1-1) L Hancock to Baylor in 93 (does this still exist); W Fiesta over Miami in 94 (both considered Bowl Coalition)

    ASU (0-1) L Rose to Ohio St in 97 (Bowl Alliance)

    UW (1-0) W Rose over Purdue in 2001 (BCS)

    WashSt (0-2) L Rose to Michigan in 98 (Bowl Alliance); L Rose to Oklahoma in 2003 (BCS)

    If there were not these limits BYU would be considered to have played in 2 BCS bowls (74 Fiesta & 97 Cotton - an original Bowl Coalition bowl from 93-95) and trust me Ute fans wouldn't allow that to be stated on here.

  • UtahUtes1
    June 30, 2010 12:53 p.m.

    @UWfan | 11:48 a.m. June 30, 2010

    I love your post, your school, and your conference. I am thrilled the University of Utah is associated with such an elite group of universities.

    Like you, I can't wait until BYU is introduced to the collective group of Washington Huskies in September.

  • FLute
    June 30, 2010 12:52 p.m.

    C'mon fellow Utes - ignore the Cougars - just like the Pac-10 did.

  • Naval Vet
    June 30, 2010 12:46 p.m.

    [5 of 5]

    Overall Record: 157-82 [0.657] — Huge upward trend
    vs. Power Conferences/BCS: 28-20 [0.583] — Huge upward trend
    vs. D-1 teams w/ winning records: 47-57 [0.452] — Huge upward trend
    vs. opponents ranked in the final polls: 10-20 [0.333] — Huge upward trend
    Ranked in the final polls: 5 [0.250] — Huge upward trend
    Postseason record: 10-3 [0.769] — Huge upward trend

    The Rivaly also saw a 16-4 edge in ybU’s favor during the 70s and 80s decline to a 10-10 split.

    Overall, you can plainly see which direction each program has progressed from 1st generation to the last. The Pac-10 could see it too.

    Edge: Utah

    So you can all cut the 40-yr “tradition” crap now zoobies. The Utes were the better fit athletically. Get over it. You all start by getting over YOURSELVES!

  • IndianaCoug
    June 30, 2010 12:38 p.m.


    What the numbers from the rankings don't show is the number of undergraduate students who go on to complete graduate school after they complete their bachelors degrees. I have no clue how BYU/UofU might stack up elsewhere, but at the Big 10 school where I teach there are considerably more BYU than UofU grads who attend our three wards (probably about 50 to 5), and who are enrolled in graduate programs. I think this is pretty consistent at least throughout the midwest. I believe even if BYU isn't a "research" school, they do a pretty good job of preparing kids for graduate school.

  • FreddyP
    June 30, 2010 12:37 p.m.

    BYU has a fine sports tradition and Utah also has a fine upcomming sports tradition in the last dozen years. No one cares about what was done years ago, they care about 'resent' history' and Utah has slightly surpassed BYU recently in their accomplishments.
    I'm convinced the 'baggage' that has been mentioned has caused Utah to not get into the PAC10 much earlier because there wasn't a suitable partner to go into the PAC10 with. When the BIG12 started to breakup, and Colorado became available, it finally gave Utah someone to come into the league with because the PAC10 does everything in pairs. BYU has actually held UTAH back.
    BYU is in denial about it's differences with the rest of the world. People want to associate with people like themselves and BYU is just plain different. A skunk doesn't know it stinks; if you get my drift!

  • IndianaCoug
    June 30, 2010 12:34 p.m.

    RE: Jazzfanz

    "Speaking of science and research: In the USnews, rankingsandreviews for the best graduate schools and top science schools' ranking in 2010."

    Your post intrigued me so I followed your lead and looked it up. Weird how my findings were different from yours...

    Best Colleges 2010 (US News and world report)
    National Rankings: BYU #71, UofU #126
    Business Schools: BYU #33, UofU #66
    Law Schools: BYU #42, UofU #42
    Education Schools: BYU #79, UofU #91
    Engineering Schools: UofU #63, BYU #102
    Medical School: UofU #52/25, BYU NR

    So BYU ranks higher in 3 areas, UofU in 2 (with one being Medical where BYU doesn't have a program), and there is one tie.

    Now, I think those numbers are a little misleading. The University of Utah is regarded by those outside the state as a "research" university while BYU is not. The U, while their rankings might be lower in some programs, do have more graduate programs and more money going into research.


  • Solomon Levi
    June 30, 2010 12:29 p.m.

    Utah fans are still trying to rationalize the fact that Utah football still doesn't measure up to BYU football.

    Top Notch Accomplishments

    National Championships
    BYU 1
    Utah 0

    Heisman Trophies
    BYU 1
    Utah 0

    Secondary Accomplishiments

    BCS Wins
    BYU 0
    Utah 2

    Top 25 Finishes
    BYU 17
    Utah 6

    WAC/MWC Conference Championships
    BYU 23
    Utah 6

    Head to Head Last 50 Years
    BYU 29
    Utah 21

  • Scholar
    June 30, 2010 12:20 p.m.

    PGVikingDad Walk in your shoes?

    Walk in mine, a non-Moromon living in Utah, married in to a 100% LDS family.

    People not liking you is not persecution. Examples of persecution are: concentration camps, ethnic cleansing, etc.

    Calling you a zoob is not persecution.

  • VegasUte
    June 30, 2010 12:18 p.m.

    For the BYU fan who also likes Utah: Most BYU fans are definitely arrogant. There is an air of superiority that is unwarranted. I have lived with it all of my life. All of my large family are Y fans except me and I am considered the proverbial "black sheep". Not that I am complaining, I love it. I have lived in several parts of the country including Oregon, Vegas and FT Lauderdale. The majority of Y fans I have dealt with in every city are arrogant and think they are superior. Sorry, but it is the truth.

    As far as zoob's not basing their testimony on football, wasn't it Austin Collie who credited a recent win over the U to "living righteously"?

  • Silent Lurker
    June 30, 2010 12:17 p.m.

    Please, lets not have any more of your crying about BYU,BYU was not invited.As you stated it was about money and TV contracts. They did not consider, track, stadium size, or church membership. This is why Utah was invited.

    Like many BYU fans/supporters you want to look at
    anything that may benefit your stated cause.
    You whine about the fact that Utah will have access to greater funding, yet at the same time Mormons are proud that as a church school BYU has received church funding and support. You cannot have it both ways.
    Doug, how is it that fairness is an issue now? Perhaps because it may not be to BYU’s advantage? Since when has BYU cared about sports funding and fairness? Look at the past.
    Your question should be why should the LDS church continue to provide funding/support for BYU sports when their are much greater humanitarian needs in the world? Oh yes, it’s a “missionary tool”. Tell that to a starving family, a man out of work, someone who cannot afford medical care, uneducated children, and those living in poverty. They are part of the fourteen million fans.

  • SoCalUtahFan
    June 30, 2010 12:12 p.m.

    Just have an idea to help BYU get in BCS...
    BYU should replace BSU in the WAC. Perhaps that will help BYU to remain unbeaten for a BCS bid.

  • Dig Dug
    June 30, 2010 12:09 p.m.

    PRE PGVikingDad

    I am LDS and used to live in Provo and now in Colorado. There is no war of hate against me or anyone else in my ward/stake. Sure, there are people who just don't agree with is, but this world-wide hate conspiracy thing is just crazy. I have walked in "your" shoes for nearly 40 years and have yet to see the huge prejudice that is supposedly attacking us 24/7. Makes me wonder where all of this paranoia comes from??

  • Dee J
    June 30, 2010 12:07 p.m.

    It's funny to see how frenzied all the Ute fans are about joining the PAC-10. From the heart of PAC-10 country, it's great to see that somebody is happy about this.

    Believe me, nobody in PAC-10 country (other than the dozen or so Ute fans that actually live here) could give a rip about Utah. Would you like to see the annual USC or UCLA game on your schedule replaced by the Big Bad Utes, because you ended up in the wrong division?

    This expansion is a loser for the teams that end up in the same division as the Utes.

    Ute fans: enjoy the glow in your fishbowl while it lasts.

  • Uteology
    June 30, 2010 12:06 p.m.

    BYU football a dominate program in the MWC? How by going 3-2 in Vegas against 5th place PAC-10 teams?

    Please join reality, BYU dominated the WAC and even then struggled to beat anyone on the national stage.

    If they were the flagship program in the MWC then they wouldn't need Boise Community College to prop up the conference in BcS rankings. They would do that on their own merit.

  • Big_Ben
    June 30, 2010 12:05 p.m.

    @ Last Stand

    Are you giantfan? Are you using multiple usernames? I dont care, I am just curious.

    The "joke" was I said that Byu had a lack of recent accomplishments. Obviously they do, a lot of them. It was a joke.

    @ Danish American

    I never have compared what Utah has accomplished to what BYU has. They are both outstanding universities with significant acheivements. I defend the utes, and make fun of BYU fans who deserve it.

  • Utes = Cougars' Big Brothers
    June 30, 2010 12:04 p.m.

    can't wait for the first game to start so that we can all talk about the game/the players/the coaches instead of all the jealousy talking...

    People, move on!!!
    Utah is in Pac-10.
    BYU is in MWC.
    Be content with those facts.

  • Dee J
    June 30, 2010 12:01 p.m.

    To Go Utes:

    You thing the PAC-10 would have a problem with BYU fans because of ARROGANCE? You haven't seen arrogance until you've seen Duck fans, Trojan fans, and Husky fans, to name only three. You are simply delusional.

    Both BYU and Utah are excellent institutions with excellent athletic programs; BYU's Mormon sponsorship, honor code, and Sunday play prohibition are simply too much baggage for the PAC-10 presidents to overcome.

    In the end, conference alignment and expansion decisions are all about money - which is why the addition of Colorado and Utah simply doesn't pencil out. It's an awesome deal for Utah, but I don't see how this adds up for the PAC-10: even if all seventeen of the Ute fans who live outside the cradle of Mormonism subscribe to the PAC-10 Channel and travel with the team, I don't see that being a financial bonanza for the PAC-10.

  • JustAnotherAverageGuy
    June 30, 2010 11:58 a.m.

    Two points. There was a very interesting interview on the radio yesterday with Rondo Felberg, former BYU AD. He said when he was discussing this issue 10-odd years ago, the coaches all thought BYU would be a great addition for all the reasons above - fan base, added revenue, etc., but the presidents / chancellors didn't, also for the reasons above - research, graduate degrees, etc. So these issues have been known for quite some time.

    Second, the PAC-10 isn't being anti-Mormon, they are being anti-religious-backed-private-school. They had the same bias against Baylor, which is why they invited Colorado first, then approached Texas so there would be an odd number and they could use that as an excuse to keep Baylor out.

  • PGVikingDad
    June 30, 2010 11:56 a.m.

    For all those who think the "Mormon Persecution Complex" is a farce: Are you implying that you LIKE us? If so, you have a strange way of expressing affection. Here's a suggestion - Walk a mile in our shoes, then tell us there's no bias.

  • nomad1
    June 30, 2010 11:52 a.m.

    It's classy how objective byu writers are. Dickie Harmon, Greggy Wrubbel and Dougy R. They must have a class at byu called "homernomics". What would these guys do if byu sports cease to exist? I guess they are taking their ball and going home.

  • UWfan
    June 30, 2010 11:48 a.m.

    This article was referenced by a columnist in Seattle so I came over to read it out of curiosity. To begin with it was an amusing read including the comments. However, I decided to comment when one poster referenced Washington State and Arizona State as having never been in a BCS bowl game. Really? WSU has been in 10 and has a 6-4 record. ASU has been in 15 with an overall winning record in those bowls. I think their fans would be distressed to know that those games really didn't happen.

    Regardless, the article itself was flat silly. As one poster tried to say: "how about believing the Pac-10" - instead of assuming they are lying.

    See you on September 4th Cougars. We will enjoy introducing you to Jake Locker, Jermaine Kearse, James Johnson, Devin Aquilar, Mason Foster - just to name a few and reintroducing you to Steve Sarkisian.


  • nomad1
    June 30, 2010 11:46 a.m.

    If byu is the big brother, then they must have gotten fat, slow and old.

    Quoting the famous Justin Timberlake, "Cry me a river."

  • Scholar
    June 30, 2010 11:41 a.m.


    Just Wow.

    I am glad BYU has so many fans in Kenya - that don't know what football is or own a TV.

    Let's talk about the number one reason BYU didn't get in. In the lifetimes of most humans alive today - BYU has done nothing to deserve an upgrade. In the last 20 years, BYU has 2 regular season wins against big time programs, Miami and Oklahoma. If that is all you have done for 20 years, you don't get to play with the big boys. BCS conference don't care about 10 wins against weak schedules.

    The number two reason is that discrimination. No, not discrimination against BYU, rather discrimination by BYU. When you beat up and arrest black protesters at basketball games, push for limiting the rights of others and wage war against academic freedom - the enlightened, the intellectuals, and the fans of equality HATE YOU!

    BYU made its bed. The school and church administrations gave you this bad image - so go cry to them!

  • VegasUte
    June 30, 2010 11:41 a.m.

    It is funny to me how many zoobs think they have any knowledge of football. All anyone has to do is read SI (you know, the people who actually know sports) who reported: "Once it completes its jump to the Pac-10, Utah will be an immediate contender for the conference title." Their opinion will trump Doug Robinson's, or any other disgruntled, bitter ybU fan.

    Go Utes!!

    The future is bright, the future is Crimson!!

  • VegasUte
    June 30, 2010 11:39 a.m.

    "Sour grapes" and "whiners" ... the zoo fanbase sounds like a Napa Valley vineyard.

  • nomad1
    June 30, 2010 11:37 a.m.

    Oh Byu fans! Will the coveting ever stop? The funny thing is, only Byu fans think Byu is relevant and deserving to be in a power conference. Being good and thinking you're good are two different things. Nobody cares how many WAC titles you have. The fact remains your record against BCS teams over the last decade is .500 and your bowl record is stinky as well. Nobody cares how many MWC championships or WAC championships you have. They care what you do on the national level. If Byu and their fans live their lives to a higher standard, than start acting like it. hYpocrites!!

  • BYU Fan who also likes Utah
    June 30, 2010 11:31 a.m.

    To Go Utes

    I agree that claiming 14 million viewers would be added was not a good claim to make. I even agree that we BYU fans shouldn't claim that we weren't invited because of religion. However, as a BYU fan who also cheers for Utah when they are not playing BYU, some of the things you claimed or implied about the BYU fan base was, quite frankly, incredibly wrong.

    First, As a student at BYU I can tell you that most BYU fans are not arrogant. Are there some, who tend to be quite loud about their arrogance and ignorance? yes. But I would say that the vast, vast majority of BYU fans are not arrogant about football. Second, I do not know ANY BYU fans who tie their testimony to the football team in any way shape or form. Their may be some idiots who do so, but I would say that would be less than 1% of all fans.

    So next time you feel like wrongfully stereotyping a group of people, please think about it more closely. Then you will probably notice that your claims are invalid.

  • Cubicle Dweller
    June 30, 2010 11:30 a.m.

    The first key to success in any endeavor is to learn the rules. The most obnoxious loser is the one who complains after the fact that the rules are wrong. I suspect that BYU is right where they want to be with respect to adherence to the academic criteria sought by the Pac-10. Conformity would have taken too heavy a toll on what the LDS Church wants it's university to be.
    Utah faces a future as a smaller to medium sized fish in a bigger pond, while BYU will remain a big fish in a medium sized pond. The exact nature of each future is anyone's guess. I actually hope that the so-called "Holy War" goes away as I am sick of the few Utah fans who relish being vulgarly bigoted. I am also sick of the few BYU fans who relish being sanctimoniusly self-righteous. With each team in different conferences, I can support Utah on the basis of my degrees and taxes paid while supporting BYU on the basis of my tithes.

  • Dig Dug
    June 30, 2010 11:26 a.m.

    RE: Go Utes!

    Amen brother! As a fellow RM from South America, the football program seems of very little importance in the overall mission of the church and even the educational system. I'm all for sports in the spirit of competition, exercise, and fun, but the Y has certainly let them become far too important of a focus.

    Rules are bent/broken for the sake of sports, and so many shameful acts and comments from people LDS and non-LDS alike all for the sake of some kids playing a game. It would be nice to see things focus on more important religious aspects. I ask, what good for the church has come from all of this? Sure, the programs get a lot of attention, but too much of it is negative! I guess it's a Hollywood feel where no press is bad press, but it is unfortunately to see the church so cavalier about it's image in this one aspect.

    Alas, it will take quite some time and many more ugly acts to happen before this becomes a possibility.

  • Hellooo
    June 30, 2010 11:13 a.m.

    This article basically says congratulations UofU, but the Y should have been worthy of consideration, too. Why has it brought out the pointing fingers again?

    The BCS is a TV championship. It is not a "national championship" for Division I schools. The U got invited to a conference that is part of that $ generating branding and promotion scheme and that is all.

    But, the opportunity for U to compete is great and I am sure the challenge of the new competition will be helpful in keeping the momentum in their football program moving forward

    I like the MWC. I like its established rivalries, which to me is the only reason to watch the poorer quality of college football compared to the pros. It isn't a gimme league like the media portrays. The media here are second tier and they yearn for the bigger spotlights. I hope the Y stays in the league and helps it become better over time.

    In any case, good luck to the U. The Y deserved consideration, too, but I am grateful they didn't and will still be playing the MWC.

  • DesertRat
    June 30, 2010 11:12 a.m.

    The point of the article is valid. The "research school" argument is bogus. What does research have to do with sports? And it IS all about sports (and money). It is not fair that Utah, on the whim of a group of university professors, will increase its $$$ intake by millions of dollars, but life isn't fair . . . and don't buy into the idea that Utah will now be dominant on the football field because of recruiting advantages. The PAC 10's record against the MWC certainly has not been dominant over the past several years. Their only hope, sadly, is to avoid scheduling Mountain West schools and keep patting themselves on their backs, reminding everyone that they are more "worthy" than those "other non-research" schools. To my Utah friends -- if the BCS was unfair without Utah, it's still not fair with Utah. Have a little integrity.

  • Dig Dug
    June 30, 2010 11:11 a.m.

    Why is it the D-News and Y apologists have failed to recognize what commissionor Scott himself already said: No religious schools, period!

    Why is this so hard for people to understand? There is no secret conspiracy, it's a simple policy that they continue to follow! Direct hate for the LDS church? No. I'm sure there are several individuals within the PAC10 that do not agree with or like the LDS church much, but that was not the deal breaker. The U has a large (approaching 20,000) LDS population, so disdain for the LDS church in and of itself would clearly have eliminated the U and the Y.

    Doug, do your homework before writing yet another article addressing the same "issue" that has already been discussed and the reasons behind it made clear.

    If you want to argue, make your argument an intelligent one (i.e. "Why no religious schools PAC10?"). I am LDS myself and grow extremely weary of this non-stop whining from BYU fans and apologists. You are a religious school ergo you don't meet the PAC10's criteria. All other points on sports, academics etc... are moot!

  • Danish American
    June 30, 2010 11:09 a.m.

    @ Big_Ben

    Glad you are there, too. Maybe now you won't feel the need to compare everything to BYU. I just don't understand why most of the posts seem to want to diminish the success at one school by putting the other one down.

  • Go Big Blue!!!
    June 30, 2010 10:55 a.m.

    One of the 14,000,000 members and still hate the y. The reality is that Utah just jumped into the fast lane. With the dramatic increase in cash and national exposure Utah will leave the cougs in the dust.

    It is a little amusing from an Aggie's perspective. The U and y conspired together to keep USU out of their conferences for decades and it almost destroyed the Aggie football program. What comes around goes around.

  • Go Utes
    June 30, 2010 10:55 a.m.

    This is one very Mormon Ute who is not included in your claimed 14 million TV watchers. I served a mission in a third world country with many humble members who could care less about BYU and its meager football program. I don't think they will be watching either. When will you realize that football and religion don't mix! When oh when?

    I don't think this is religious discrimination. If I were picking schools to join my conference, I would not want the arrogant BYU fans in my conference. Rants like yours Doug are what I would not want in my conference.

    Perhaps this will be the beginning of the realization that BYU football is a waste. I like the rivalry game, but seeing people's testimony tied to their football team is a joke. I predict that BYU football will, not many years hence, go the way of Ricks College football.

  • Baghdad Ute
    June 30, 2010 10:53 a.m.

    I love editorials/articles like these! Joining the PAC is awesome, but the whining jealousy of BYU fans makes it that much sweeter. Keep it up, your envy will entertain us and will not change a thing. Utah will still be in the PAC and BYU will be increasingly irrelevant.

    No where did I say BYU is not worthy, I think as an athletic department they are, but you should be careful, I'm sure the "prosecution complex" is going over big with other AQ conferences who may be looking to expand.

  • MUSSDad
    June 30, 2010 10:52 a.m.

    Good grief, Robinson; a slow day at the Des News and you become a disciple of D. Harmon. I don't know who approves the stories you guys write - but I would like to know at what point unmitigated opinion became common practice in journalism?

    Did either you or Harmon bother to watch the meeting where the invitation from the PAC was accepted by the University of Utah? It was on TV. Did you see it? Maybe you were at BYU that day covering an Honor Code story. If so, you can catch it, in its entirety, on the PAC-10 Web Site. The PAC laid out a clear case for its invitation. Why don't you and Harmon report on that instead of choosing to spew opinion.

    Here's the deal Deseret News...the bar is set too high for BYU. DEAL WITH IT!

    While you are working on that, I will work on learning to accept that freedom of the press is a constitutional right. After all, a little thing like the facts should never stand in the way of a good story.

  • Big_Ben
    June 30, 2010 10:51 a.m.

    mattman1, thats nice, but you know BYU would have jumped at it if the invite had come.

  • Last Stand
    June 30, 2010 10:49 a.m.

    @ Big_Ben

    What was a joke? If so, your delivery was autrocious. I went back and read your two posts I referred to and I'm pretty sure you were being serious.

  • MOUte
    June 30, 2010 10:49 a.m.

    Hey Robinson, in your world (a sport writer) research is "crapola." In BYU's world, research is "crapola." After all, BYU spent the last 40+ developing sports NOT research.

    In the world of scientific advancement and academia, research is critical and the University of Utah is world class. You can pose no justifiable argument to diminish $350M in annual revenue (dollars are a viable way to measure the University's success).

    Perhaps if BYU was not been so closed minded and focused on advancing our body of knowledge instead of focusing on SPORTS for the last 40 years, they might have be more attractive to another conference. Why don't you write about that?

    Here's about you Dick Harmon spend your time writing about how terrible the Big 12 is for deciding not to expand. There's a good angle for you guys...paint them as the bad guys. Their decision has potentially impacted your beloved athletic driven BYU. Or, at least squashed the hope of the BYU collective for an immediate solution to their angst.

    The PAC decision is done. Find a new angle for your drivel.

  • TucsonUte
    June 30, 2010 10:48 a.m.

    Fair? Both Utah and BYU fans need to remember that their schools backdoored Utah State when the WAC was established. Not only did it diminish the USU-Utah rivalry--it killed USU and they have never recovered from it. Back then BYU didn't even deserve a sniff with their poor facilities and sports programs. Utah wasn't much better. USU was the best in state sports school back in the early 1960s.

    BYU fans can complain all they want but they have left others behind (USU) for their gain. Is life and I tell my kids that all the time. Call it pay back for what they did to the Aggies.

    In fairness to Doug Robinson--he can't win. His son has played for the U of U football team. When he was critical about Austin Collie's "Magic Happens" remarks he was accused of being a Utah "homer". Now he is being accused of being BYU and Dick Harmon's lackey. He also ran track for is a homer for them too?

    Robinson is a great writer and his work shows it.

  • Just Truth
    June 30, 2010 10:48 a.m.

    Ute fans are just tiring. The Pac-10 can have them! Go away already! You can't win on the field so you try to spin it on the comment boards.

    BYU is the better football program in the present, past, and future. Period!!! (without many exceptions)

    If it were based solely on sports as a whole, then BYU is a better fit than Utah would be in any conference, and any honest educated fan across the nation knows it.

  • Just Truth
    June 30, 2010 10:44 a.m.

    Ute fans are just tiring. The Pac-10 can have them! Go away already! You can't win on the field so you try to spin it on the comment boards.

    BYU is the better football program in the present, past, and future. Period!!! (without many exceptions)

    If it were based solely on sports as a whole, then BYU is a better fit than Utah would be in any conference, and any honest educated fan across the nation knows it.

  • VocalLocal
    June 30, 2010 10:43 a.m.

    14 Million Mormons?!!!
    Let's see, more than half of those live outside the United States and probably aren't too interested in BYU football and as census results from countries who ask for religious declaration reveal the actual number of Mormons is far less than the 'official' LDS count. So after eliminating those out of the country, those who don't really consider themselves Mormon and of course those who do consider themselves Mormon who either don't like football or don't like BYU you'd be lucky to have 1 million of your supposed '14 millioin' additional viewers.

  • Utahute72
    June 30, 2010 10:42 a.m.

    OK you asked for facts, here are some facts.

    The PAC is concerned with the ratings of the Association of American Universities, AAU. 7 of the 10 PAC members are members, the only ones not members are the three state schools that were added as members with AAU schools to pair them up.

    Colorado is an AAU certified school.

    Utah is in the process of certifying as a member of a PAC 10 school, which membership in the PAC will help.

    The reason the deal with the big 12 schools fell through is that the PAC attempted to add Kansas, an AAU school, instead of Okie St. a non-AAU school, and not a school tied to Texas.

    Texas, TAMU and Oklahoma are AAU schools.

    Utah ranks in the top 50 in 12 of the 16 AAU categories, BYU is 99th in one.

    That looks pretty compelling to me.

  • mattman1
    June 30, 2010 10:37 a.m.

    BYU didn't want to go to the PACX. They don't need the money. They wouldn't feel comfortable there and neither would the PACX be comfortable with them. I don't know why BYU fans are all up in arms about this whole deal. Everyone knows it would not have been a good fit. BYU has done fine without the money/supposed prestige. We will continue to do fine. I, for one, am proud to be an alum of an institution that will not compromise for money or anything else. Utah earned it. BYU athletically earned it, but that's not the point. If the PACX wanted money they would have invited BYU. They didn't want the money. We don't want theirs either.

  • RE
    June 30, 2010 10:37 a.m.

    This article is dead on!

    I don't think Colorado got invited because of it's great football team. They have never gone to a BCS bowl.

    It's fine that Utah is now in the Pac-10 but let's just admit that religion did play a big role in the whole thing. It's OK

  • Big_Ben
    June 30, 2010 10:32 a.m.

    @ Danish American

    Thats nice. I personally dont care if we were 1,345,621 on the pac-10's wish list. We are there now. BYU is not.

  • DEW Cougars
    June 30, 2010 10:32 a.m.

    Oh brother Doug Robinson. You sound like Roger Reid making that same statement when he didn't land what was his name. Brad Rock might sit down with you to calm you down. We BYU fans and the university will be fine w/o utah. I really believe this "no Sunday TV $offer$. Yes this research program stuff is a joke! Take a month off and relax.

  • Utahute72
    June 30, 2010 10:25 a.m.

    OK, you want some facts here they are. You won't read them because I've posted them ad naseum over the past two weeks, but here they are.

    The PAC cares about the Association of American universities which is a measure of reasearch and graduate standards at a university.

    7 or the 10 PAC schools are members, the only ones not members are the state schools, which were added as compliments to other schools.

    Colorado is an AAU accredited school

    Utah is in the process of becomming accredited, a process that will be aided by PAC membership.

    Utah rates in the top 50 in 12 of the 16 categories. BYU is 99th in one.

    The Texas deal fell apart when the PAC tried to add Kansas, another AAU school, instead of Okie St., a non-AAU school, one that Texas was not tied to. Meaning the PAC would only add one of the new 6 that was not an AAU school, and yes Utah was in this mix.

    This is all available with a little research, which Doug and most BYU fans don't bother to do.

  • giantfan
    June 30, 2010 10:21 a.m.

    The Pac-10 commercial I hear on KALL 700 is hilarious: "Goodbye Las Vegas Bowl. Hello Rose Bowl. See you later Poinsettia Bowl. Hello Holiday Bowl". Ironic that the Pac-10 has ties with both of those "lesser" bowls. Anyone care to wager on which of those four bowls Utah plays in first as a member of the Pac-XX?

  • Big_Ben
    June 30, 2010 10:19 a.m.

    @ giantfan

    It was a joke my friend. sorry for the confusion.

    @ Striker

    I always write "not for use at BYU" on my tithing slips. ha ha, not really, but id like to.

    @ Jealous U

    sorry little brother, you are still the little brother. we'll send you a postcard sometime.

  • abr2116
    June 30, 2010 10:17 a.m.

    14 million Mormons? On the membership roles, but 65% are not active leaving 4.9 million. Of the 4.9 million 2.5 million are outside the US or couldn't care less about NCAA football. Of the 2.5 Million get the point, right? As Mormons we are often impressed by the 14 Million members number but upon closer inspection that 14,000,000 is a much smaller number.

  • Snark
    June 30, 2010 10:16 a.m.

    Utah has spent so much energy being anti-BYU, I doubt that they will allow themselves to be considered "the Mormon School" in the PAC 10/12. No, they will lean to the breaking point to make themselves at home with Berkley, which may actually work to the benefit of BYU when it comes to recruiting LDS athletes. Not every athlete has the same profit-centered, narcissistic inclinations that have been on display throughout this entire conference expansion process. The final chapter in this story has yet to be written. A school that does not deviate from it's core priniples may be a footnote in the history of college football, but it is always a place that will best suit the very talent it seeks to attract. Who knows, there may be a conference out there that values such things.

  • Naval Vet
    June 30, 2010 10:14 a.m.

    [4 of 5]

    The Utes didn’t have much to write home about either. In fact our record was worse. We went 98-124-3 [0.436] 7-39 [0.152] vs. teams from Power Conferences, 18-81 [0.182] vs. D-1 opponents with winning records, and concluded 0 [0.000] seasons in the final polls. Utah’s record vs. ranked opponents was also a paltry 2-30 [0.063], and enjoyed no rewards of a postseason [0-0, 0.000].

    Edge: ybU

    The next generation of the football rivalry illustrated a different trend however...

    Overall Record: 157-85-2 [0.643] — Trending downward
    vs. Power Conferences/BCS: 20-26 [0.435] — Trending downward
    vs. D-1 teams w/ winning records: 49-71 [0.408] — Trending downward
    vs. opponents ranked in the final polls: 8-35-1 [0.182] — Slight upward trend
    Ranked in the final polls: 9 [0.450] — Slight upward trend
    Postseason record: 5-7-1 [0.385] — Push; 5-wins; slight upward trend in win pct, but slight downward trend postseason appearances

  • Naval Vet
    June 30, 2010 10:13 a.m.

    [3 of 5]

    But, since zoobies are so inclined to talk about their last 40 yrs, here’s comparative breakdown for you:

    During the tdS’ heyday of the 70s and 80s, ybU’s overall W/L record was 173-70 [0.712]. They went 25-25 [0.500] vs. teams from Power Conferences, 55-49 [0.529] vs. D-1 opponents with winning records, and ended their seasons in the final polls 8 times [0.400].

    [*** Since the BCS didn’t exist prior to 1998, the “Power Conference” includes teams such as TCU, Houston, and SMU PRIOR TO the break-up of the SWC, or teams such as Louisville or USF AFTER assuming membership in the Big East. And, even though they weren’t part of a Power Conference at the time, I let you zoobs keep your games vs. Miami and Penn State. ***]

    That seeming appears impressive until you take notice of their dismal record vs. ranked opponents, 3-17 [0.150] the postseason, 5-9 [0.357].

  • Naval Vet
    June 30, 2010 10:11 a.m.

    [2 of 5]

    Just by shear “Athletic Fit”:

    I’m sure the Pac-10 is no more excited about ybU’s Track or Men’s Volleyball team as they are Utah’s Ski or Women’s Gymnastics. Actually, they might care more about the Red Rocks since that is a revenue sport, but I digress... FOOTBALL is king. And the Utes have 2 BCS Bowl appearances, and 2 BCS Bowl trophies to show for it. Their 9-game postseason winning streak certainly hadn’t hurt our case. ybU on the other hand, have 0 BCS Bowl appearances [thus 0 BCS Bowl trophies] and have only won 3 of their last 9. I’m sure that didn’t bolster the “why’s?” case for AQ conference inclusion.

  • KIYI
    June 30, 2010 10:11 a.m.

    Hey Robert,

    Would you like some cheese to go with that wine err... that cool aid?

  • Naval Vet
    June 30, 2010 10:10 a.m.

    [1 of 5]

    Oh PLEASE...

    Speaking of “cutting the crapola...

    Whether or not a school is a Tier-1 Research institution DOES matter to the Pac-10 [it matters to the Big 10 too]. Utah passes muster; ybU does not.

    Whether or not a school played good football in some bygone era 30-40 yrs ago did NOT. At least not with the same significance as to what a school is doing on the gridiron RIGHT NOW anyway.

  • Danish American
    June 30, 2010 10:07 a.m.

    I think it good for the Utes to go to the PAC 10. I think they will do well. However, for all you Ute fans just remember you weren't the first choice, the second choice or even the third choice. You were the booby prize. And Robinson is right--all things being equal, BYU was just as good a choice as Utah.

  • Ute_4_Life
    June 30, 2010 10:02 a.m.

    First off, I am LDS and a Utes fan, so don't get me wrong here. 14 million church members does not equal 14 million "+" tv sets, most of the church membership is outside of the states where most don't care about American football, and maybe 70% (conservative guess) of the remainder are Yner fans with most of those coming from within the state of Utah. Everywhere else, the membership is so far spread that the cable companies commanding the almighty dollar don't care (aside from Idaho, huge market there). I know Yner fans love to use this argument, but sorry boys, huge gaping hole in that argument. Although, I will be the first to admit that outside of the state of Utah not many people care about the U; however the same thing exists for the rest of the PAC schools except for the California schools and maybe Oregon.

    Go Utes and rock the PAC!

  • bookonwomen
    June 30, 2010 9:59 a.m.

    The facts are BYU is who they ARE and for whatever reason it was, they still are who they ARE. Plain and simple, if the pac 10 didn't want them, then they weren't good enough to get the invite. No excuses, no envy... they got passed over.

    As far as on the FB field Utah has won 5 out of the last 8. Two of those were blowouts on the way to undefeated seasons with BCS bowl wins. BCS wins = Major Nationwide credibility, something BYU doesn't have. (they have national respect but not as high as teams who win BCS bowls). Another of those 5 wins was an embarrassing shutout in 2003. BYU wins were all last minute comebacks. In 2009 BYU'S team had several all-time leaders - hall, unga, pita and barley squeaked out a victory during Utahs rebuilding year.The last 20 years is basically a tie head to head.

    In basketball BYU has won 1 NCAA tourney in 15-18 years, game why Utah was in a title game and made several deep runs.

    Bottom line is Utah got picked and will continue to prosper. A bitter pill to swallow for Y fans...

  • Hatedontwork
    June 30, 2010 9:58 a.m.

    Doug - show us you have done your research then we can talk. So how much money have the Pac 10 schools recieved for being a research institution? If you could provide that and compare to their TV contract then I will listen. Plus BYU was doomed to ever join the Pac 10 when the Prop 8 passed thanks to the majority of LDS contributions.

  • lampa
    June 30, 2010 9:55 a.m.

    The Utes have adopted an arrogant and elitist attitude since joining the PAC-?. It will give me great pleasure when BYU beats those rich, arrogant elitists in any sport.

  • Laser
    June 30, 2010 9:54 a.m.

    Geez Robinson, looking at all these utah comments, Maybe it's a little more clear why Max Hall said what he did.

  • Striker
    June 30, 2010 9:54 a.m.

    SoCalUtesFan: "They've seen me with a mini keg of Heineken on hand watching Utah demolished BYU 48-21. Yeah, right!!! They've seen me with Starbuck on my hand."

    Ah, so this is the Ute standard for the school? Utah will fit in very nicely in their new "seen me with a mini keg of Heineken on hand" image. You make Ute fans everywhere proud I'm sure.

  • Jealous U
    June 30, 2010 9:54 a.m.

    I see our jealous little brothers up on the hill are still trying to justify Utah's invite to the PAC 10 based on superior football.

    All one has to do to see what a farce that position is is look at the other school the PAC 10 invited, Colorado.

    Colorado's football program, like Utah's basketball program, is a disaster.

    The PAC 10 wanted a championship game and Utah and Colorado were the only western schools that fit the bill "culturally" and that brought enough television sets to the table to make the television contract numbers work.

    Rock was right. Utah just happened to be in the right place and the right time.

  • giantfan
    June 30, 2010 9:53 a.m.

    Re: Utah Man am I

    Of course we know that Utah has a large LDS base. But Utah does not have religious-based policies and that's the issue here. BYU will not play on Sunday. BYU is a conservative private religious university. Those two things make them incompatible with the Pac-10. Not because of "research" or "academics".

    But if you guys want to keep believing it then go ahead. "Sweet, we're in the Pac-10 because we rock at research. Gooooooooo Research!!"

  • shamrock
    June 30, 2010 9:52 a.m.


    Right on! It's like watching some guy poke a couple of dogs to start a fight.

  • davidutefan
    June 30, 2010 9:50 a.m.

    waaah waaah waaaah. Quit resting on you ancient history and live in the present. Every time the Kitties have a shot at a BCS bowl, They lose to Podunk State University. Just because Mormons (And I am one), THINK Provo is the center of the Universe doesn't make it so. Go unbeaten and win a BCS bowl (just once), and your argument will hold water. Lavell retired a long time ago. If you want to look at the past, Utah owned you for 70 years before Lavell. Utah won a B-Ball title in, what was ut? '46? I'll bet that had the ACC beating down our door.

  • HARM
    June 30, 2010 9:49 a.m.

    Fate? Luck? Come on Mr. Robinson we all know the real reason that the Utes are in is because they live right on and off the field.

  • Striker
    June 30, 2010 9:46 a.m.

    Great article! $$ is the whole reason Utah joined the Liberal 12. I'm so glad they're going after $$. It shows they are followers like no other and they only think about the $$.

    I will admit the day BYU joins a major conference it will be for the $$ too. BYU is well funded by members of the church (thanks Ute LDS members for your tithing to help pay for BYU) and I will not be impressed if BYU bails for some major conference because they too will be perusing that $$. I have zero jealousy for the Utes move. Good riddance!

    The article was good clear up to the last sentence. Utah won't be playing for the Rose Bowl and national championship until they beat the likes of Oregon, Oregon State, UCLA, USC, Arizona, Stanford, and even Washington now, consistently. They can't even beat BYU and TCU on the road in a given year. Having only beaten a weak Arizona team on the road in the last 8 years, Utah has their work cut out for them.

  • Cubicle Dweller
    June 30, 2010 9:45 a.m.

    What Mr. Robinson fails to understand is that a school's vote in an athletic conference is held by the school president or chancellor and not by the athetic director. Some time back, the presidents of the Pac-10 decided that academics was a relevant consideration for membership in their conference. That is the overall academics and not just for the student athletes, so I don't want to hear about any current issues with Colorado athletes. I also don't want to hear about any of the current Pac-10 schools that "grandfathered" that requirement. BYU is a fine school and does a good job educating students, but when it comes to issues of "academic freedom" with respect to the faculty, the situation at BYU is outside the mainstream of higher education. In this regard, BYU is even repugnant to certain academics.
    With respect to Utah being seen as a "Mormon School", I look forward to that immensely, especially when it comes to recruiting the blue chip Mormon athletes. That is what will start the BYU athletic programs on the slide to oblivion.

  • giantfan
    June 30, 2010 9:43 a.m.

    @ Big_Ben

    You're spot on. If the Pac-10 did come calling and wanted to invite BYU on the terms that they would not have to compromise anything, of course BYU would jump at that chance. The truth is, they didn't come calling because of the values they know BYU will not compromise. Not because of "research" or anything related to academia (the Pac-10 really does get the hypocritical blackeye on that one for inviting CU).

    And what's this "lack of significant recent accomplishments"? (What has CU done in the last decade?) How many other programs can say they've won 10+ games and finished ranked in the top-25 each of the LAST FOUR YEARS? (Not Utah)

  • Cougars --Best Little Brothers
    June 30, 2010 9:38 a.m.

    I am amused with this article as well as all the excuses/reasons why BYU should be in a AQ conference.

    Good laughs.

  • SoCalUtahFan
    June 30, 2010 9:33 a.m.

    Enough, already.
    BYU is known for "whines" --the art was masterd by Danny Aigne. But this is too much.
    Deal with it, people. Outside of Provo, nobody regards BYU as top school. Outside of Provo, noone think 1984 was legit. Outside of Provo, everyone regards BYU as irrelevant when it comes to BCS.
    Deal with those facts and move on.

  • Another Perspective
    June 30, 2010 9:28 a.m.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but don't most of the PAC 10 schools come from areas where evangelical "Christians" are a majority? Since they distain LDS, is this surprising?

    There is also the issue of no Sunday play.

    Football is only a sport, I would be more disappointed if BYU had lost a great academic opportunity. The focus of a university should be Academics, not sports.

  • Casper
    June 30, 2010 9:26 a.m.

    I'm going to make an attempt at a calm voice of reason and simply ask why we let sports reporters make us feel like criticizing and degrading each other is justified? Why do we do it people? How is it that we can allow them that much influence over us??

    Think about it...that's all I ask.

    June 30, 2010 9:21 a.m.

    The Yner argument about religious discrimination kills me. Nevermind the fact that the U reports over 50% of students as being LDS, and having the largest LDS Institute in the world. So according to zoob fans, Utah got into the PAC-10 despite not being a research institution (as many of you are claiming), not having athletic or academic prowess, not having a nationwide fanbase and ALSO overcoming religious discrimination. So let me ask you, what did get us into the PAC-10? The Salt Lake TV market? We must just be living right on and off the field. Give it a rest BCRYU fans. Accept what has happened and deal with it.

  • Bo Jangles
    June 30, 2010 9:20 a.m.

    The worst stuff I've ever read on DNews. Doug, do you really think your readers are so naive that they wouldn't call you out on the 14MM number? Jose in Mexico, Vladimir in Russia and even Phyllis in Tallahassee could care less about BYU sports. You were probably the journalists that called out Roger Reid when he accused Shawn Bradley of disappointing 11MM Mormons.

    If it's really all about money like you say, then why would ANY money grubbing conference pass up the opportunity to add a "money machine" like BYU? Your arguments have more holes that Swiss cheese.

    Give credit where credit is due. Since 2004 Utah's football program has been the class of the MWC... two BCS bowl wins and an undefeated bowl record. Despite a poor showing in basketball recently, over the years Utah has been one of the premiere hoops programs in the West with 27 trips to the NCAA tournament, 2 trips to the title game, and a very impressive winning record vs. the PAC 10.

    So Doug, why do you have such a hard time giving Utah any credit? Hope your next piece is more believable. Good luck on that.

  • BruceJ
    June 30, 2010 9:19 a.m.

    Funny how so many posters are calling on BYU fans to quit whining, when 36 of the above posts are angry Ute responses to this article, and only about ten take a pro-BYU stance. Seems to me that BYU fans ARE over this, and the Utes are the ones who can't take anyone calling into question why they were picked over BYU.

    Here are the facts: Utah, based on its accomplishments, IS deserving of a Pac-10 invite.
    BYU is *at least* equally deserving but they were, in fact, excluded because of who they are. Anyone who thinks CU deserved it more than BYU has their head in the sand. Personally, I think both schools will end up JUST FINE and the rivalry will continue, but hopefully with a little less rancor on both sides.

  • Big_Ben
    June 30, 2010 9:15 a.m.

    @ giantfan

    Utah got into the Pac-10 and BYU did not because:

    The pluses of BYU (more fans, more nation wide fan base, more tradition etc.) was outweighed by the negatives (headaches in scheduling, no sunday play, lack of significant recent accomplishments) If you want to make it about religious persecution, go for it. It wont get you an invite anywhere, but it may help you sleep at night.

  • UtahGal
    June 30, 2010 9:11 a.m.

    Sure the Y is a research school, didn't they just invent something to make a better Tortilla? Oh yes, they do so good stuff down south, they have a great division that produced a fabulous hearing aid technology so all you Zoobies don't have to crank up the volume on the TV when watching reruns of that 1984 glory game or Lawrence Welk.
    BYU -a legend in their own minds! BYU who?
    Utah State is a better research institute than the Y

  • jazzfanz
    June 30, 2010 9:10 a.m.

    Speaking of science and research:
    In the USnews, rankingsandreviews for the best graduate schools and top science
    schools' ranking in 2010.

    You will see why the PAC 10 picked utah, but not BYU.
    Biology--Utah 56, BYU 144
    Chemistry--Utah 36, BYU 107
    Physics--Utah 63, BYU 102
    Math--Utah 30, BYU non-ranked (they only ranked to 119, so BYU is below
    Computer Sciences--Utah 39, BYU 91
    Earth Sciences--Utah 45, BYU non-ranked. (they only ranked to 108, so
    BYUis below that)

    In the research and science areas, Utah is ranked only below the californian universities and ranked higher than others in the PAC 10. You can't say the same to BYU. I don't even mention the medical school here since BYU doesn't have it.

  • SoCalUtesFan
    June 30, 2010 9:08 a.m.

    @Joe Schmoe...Get ready because you are now going to be seen as the "Mormon School" by the rest of the pac-10. Are you ready to endure?...

    My Standford, USC, UCLA alumni friends already know I'm a "Mormon School" alum. Yeah, right!!! They've seen me with a mini keg of Heineken on hand watching Utah demolished BYU 48-21. Yeah, right!!! They've seen me with Starbuck on my hand. Yeah, right.
    Believe me, they know the differences between Utes and Cougars.

    June 30, 2010 9:05 a.m.

    More crying from the Yners. Objectivity is not your strong suit Deseret News, that's for sure. Your persecution complex is showing. And Joe Schmoe, i think we'll be all right known as the Mormon School. I don't think it will be that hard to deal with. HOW DARE THEY CALL US NAMES!!!

  • nobody
    June 30, 2010 9:03 a.m.

    Please stop with the scorned lover act. It's getting tired and pathetic, even for BYU fans. These types of articles really need to disappear. Remember, quiet dignity.

  • aesop
    June 30, 2010 8:57 a.m.

    The fact that the U was admitted based on the fact that it is a research institution holds about as much water as BYU's exclusion based on the fact that they refuse to play on Sundays. Basically, there is no denying academic freedom issues down south in Provo and all factors considered the Pac 10 didn't select you guys. Get over it. It will be good for the U and Salt Lake City to have a bit of separation from all of this. My vote is to end the "Holy War" and let this rivalry die.

  • murraydad
    June 30, 2010 8:56 a.m.

    Nobody ever said life was fair Dougy.

    See ya later Cougs, have fun in the MWC.

  • ST
    June 30, 2010 8:54 a.m.

    "Fate or luck or whatever you want to call it lent the Utes a hand."

    Doug would you have written the same thing about BYU if they had been choosen?
    Grow up, quit whinning and move on.

  • patriot
    June 30, 2010 8:52 a.m.

    The bottom line - The Y has to get out of the MWC in the next 5 years or watch their athletic programs fizzle to nothing. The BIG 12 is still the best - and maybe - only option for expansion for the Y but for now the BIG 12 is setting tight with 10 teams. I think that will change and if it does the Y better hope they are on the invite list this time. Staying in the MWC is a death sentense.

  • Henry Drummond
    June 30, 2010 8:50 a.m.

    Well Doug, you were doing really good until you brought up Notre Dame. If its all about some sort of religious prejudice then how come everyone wants Notre Dame? The Catholics are just as conservative if not more so that the Mormons. Maybe Utah was just a better fit both academically and athletically. Why not be gracious then?

  • Big_Ben
    June 30, 2010 8:47 a.m.

    @ John 20000

    If Tom Holmoe had recieved a call from the Pac-10 and they said "we want you, and we will not make you play on sunday" Holmoe would have said yes in a heartbeat and you know it.

    The only thing more annoying than insecurity is self-righteous insecurity.

  • Max-was-right
    June 30, 2010 8:46 a.m.

    Ute fans get over yourselves already. The Utes were picked over BYU for the one and only reason that the liberals running that circus do not like the mormons. Its plain and simple. Its religious bias at the very best. Please stop thinking that it was your football team that made the difference. It was the hatred for the LDS church that got you invited.

    Just move on. Go join those clowns and enjoy your 6-6 poinsette bowl. Trust me when I say that I speak for most cougar fans when I tell you that we will not miss you at all.

    It real question is this, will Utah be brave enough to still schedule BYU every year? I dont think that they will want any part of that game. Looks to me like Dixie State should start working on a 2-1 deal with the chicken littles.....

  • comchris
    June 30, 2010 8:45 a.m.

    I think I am going to go whaling as Ute in Chicago suggests. Are there whales in the Great Salt Lake?

  • CrimsonUte
    June 30, 2010 8:43 a.m.

    14 million Mormons and all of us are BYU fans. Riiiigth.

  • Joe Schmoe
    June 30, 2010 8:40 a.m.

    Hey Ute fans,

    Get ready because you are now going to be seen as the "Mormon School" by the rest of the pac-10. Are you ready to endure?

  • BWhineU Not
    June 30, 2010 8:39 a.m.

    Calling on all DN sport-writers, all BYU fans to stop the whinning about BYU not in AQ conference.

  • 93 COUGAR
    June 30, 2010 8:38 a.m.

    All I have to say is good riddance. I hope the rivalry dies a quick death. No anger from this Cougar fan. It was getting uglier by the year.

    I hope the hatred will die down a little bit in this state.

  • SoCalUtesFan
    June 30, 2010 8:37 a.m.

    blah, blah, blah...

    Make all excuses if you're BYU fan.

    All I feel is the jealousy among you guys.

    I pity you all. Move on as life is moving on forward without BYU receiving an invitation to join AQ conference.

    Move on, DN.

  • giantfan
    June 30, 2010 8:36 a.m.

    Re: Big Rock @ 8:19 a.m.

    Cosmo is obviously a troll and you fell for it. Don't feed the trolls!

  • John20000
    June 30, 2010 8:35 a.m.

    Utah joins a conference where money is all that matters. Congrats. It is a better fit for the school than the MWC.

    Perhaps, at BYU, money is not all that matters. Actually, there is no "perhaps" about it. BYU is not like Utah, not even close. (e.g. funding source, honor code, mission, etc.). BYU has sports because they have found a way to make them complimentary to the main mission of the school (i.e. religious school), which closely governs its activities.

    Simply put, BYU would not be a good fit for the Pac 10 where money is all that matters. That should be plain and clear.

    You can probably thank the BYU womens rugby team for making the Pac 10's decision easy.

  • giantfan
    June 30, 2010 8:31 a.m.

    Robinson hits the nail on the head and all you Ute fans can say is "WAAAAAAH"? Please refute what he wrote some concrete facts. I've had many a conversation with Ute fans the last couple weeks and I've asked every single one of them "why did Utah get it over BYU?" The resounding answer has been "research". Robinson is dead on to debunk that theory because it is absolute nonsense. BYU has a larger fanbase, a larger stadium, better facilities, better overall athletics, larger TV market, etc. etc. etc. So based on all that, the difference maker was "research"? In an athletic conference? In a conference that is so obviously more interested in growing it's TV market to make more money?

    Someone said, "I prefer to take [the Pac-10's] word for it". I can't stop laughing at that one. Isn't this the same conference that purports academics to be so important yet invited Colorado just days after the NCAA pulled scholarships because of not meeting graduation requirements of its athletes? If you believe "their word", I guess you'll believe anything.

  • ProudRedUtahAlum
    June 30, 2010 8:30 a.m.

    I agree with a lot of other posters on here. STOP WHINING ABOUT THIS ALREADY? It's done! I'm sure the Big-12 is impressed with all this whining. Why don't you let the Cougars prove it on the field that they belong and get into a BCS bowl game, even if they lose. That might help. If the other BCS conferences don't wish to accommodate BYU's problem with Sunday play, then BYU is making their own decision for the future. Deal with it and move on.

  • Mid-Major Cougars
    June 30, 2010 8:24 a.m.

    hahahaha...another "support-my-you-know-what" article from DN...

    Say all you (Cougar fans) want to say about how many conf. titles BYU has won, how many bowl games BYU has played, blah, blah, blah

    Bottom line:
    1) BYU is not BCS-material. ZERO BCS games versus 2-0 BCS record for the Utes. As a matter of facts, BYU is on the top-10 list of "irrelevant" schools when it comes to BCS qualifiers.
    2) BYU brings no extra factors to the table
    3) No research institution: remember "Bo Diddley Tech"? The name said it all.
    4) No Pac-10 invt. No Big-12 invt. No AQ. Will remain Mid-Major Cougars for a (long) while now.

    Ciao and keep them (excuses for BYU still in MWC) coming. These are really amusing.

  • Big_Ben
    June 30, 2010 8:23 a.m.

    And here's to you, Mr. Robinson, the cougars love you more than you will know, woah woah woah, whats that you say Mr. robinson? The runnin utes have left and gone away, hey hey hey.

    This is an opinion people. yes, its overly whiny, but what do you expect? Facts are facts: Utah is in the pac-10, BYU is not. The fact is, BYU is not getting credit for being dominant in the 80's.

    Can we write about something else now please?

  • Big Rock
    June 30, 2010 8:19 a.m.

    Hey Cosmo, if you can be awesome in your own little world, then more power to you! Utah just moved on, deal with it.

  • RealityCheck
    June 30, 2010 8:17 a.m.

    This article has several huge contradictions in it. He first makes the claim that conference re-alignment is governed by only two things: football and market size.

    Then, later in the article he makes the claim that Sunday play and BYU's religious affiliation kept them out of the PAC-10. So wait, I thought the decisions were made based on football and market size? Is it then football, market size, AND religious affiliation? And if religious affiliation is now one of the criteria, maybe being a research institution is as well?

    In sum, this was a poorly written article with faulty logic.

  • Ernest T. Bass
    June 30, 2010 8:13 a.m.

    They were relevent 30 years ago Doug.
    They have a horrible record in bowl games and against ranked teams. Could it be they are actually a paper tiger?
    14 million mormon TV sets? At most there are 6 to 7 million who are active and most of those LDS live out of the US and simply do not care about byu sports.
    So much for objectivity.

  • Ernest T. Bass
    June 30, 2010 8:01 a.m.

    Doug, you're crazy if you believe institutions are equal at research. You're also crazy if you think a conference like the Pac10 doesn't consider that when deciding who to invite.
    And yes, Utah is considered a MUCH greater research institution. No doubt about it.
    But let the whining continue.
    So much for objectivity.

  • gary2635
    June 30, 2010 7:59 a.m.

    I agree with your assessment except for one thing: Why is Pac-10 a promotion? As a Pac-10 graduate and Pac-10 faculty member for 25 years, I find this really strange.

    Every year the Pac-10 has 2 or 3 teams that do well. The rest struggle.

    I cringed reading reports of celebrations when the change was announced. This is not news in Los Angeles. I had to search the Los Angeles Times to find the smallest mention of adding Utah to the Pac-10.

    For years Utah and the MWC exposed THE BIG LIE, that BCS conferences were inherently better.

    Not counting Utah's 1-1 record, the MWC football went 6-3 against the Pac-10 in the past 2 years. Even UNLV was 1-1 and came within 2 points of beating the Pac-10 second place team last year. The MWC turned some of us into believers. Now I read of Utah's president and sportswriters embracing THE BIG LIE. It makes me wonder if those who put forth such a good argument in the past were ever believers at all. It is just another example of "me first."

    That's too bad.

  • Cosmo
    June 30, 2010 7:55 a.m.

    Let's just face it! BYU is pretty much the most awesome thing to come along since sliced bread!

    Pac12 or not, BYU will still trod along that path to fame and glory!

    Gooooooo COUGARS!

  • Idaho Coug
    June 30, 2010 7:50 a.m.

    I'm a huge Cougar fan but the 14 million member number is thrown around without much thought.

    Less than half of that number live in the U.S. I guarantee you the members I have met in foreign countries have very little interest in BYU sports. No more than half of any announced number are active members which likely goes a bit to their devotion to BYU - although I know many who's last remainig ties to the Church are BYU sports. And many members simply are not BYU fans. Thousands are UofU or other university fans. In my home ward of Boise the majority are BSU fans and I often travel to an Atlanta ward in which the majority are Georgia, Georgia Tech or LSU fans.

    I am not saying BYU does not travel well and they do have a base that is much more broad than most including the Utes. But my guess is that 14 million really equals maybe 2 million true BYU sports fans. Somehow I don't think that compares too well to Notre Dame.

  • OB
    June 30, 2010 7:42 a.m.

    Just a question from an observer who is REALLY tired of the continuous whining out of long can you possibly continue the crying and whining over this? Even a 2 year old grows out of this phase. I can understand being disappointed have to realize that Utah is not the only school that dislakes you. There are schools everywhere that don't like you and it's not the's the whiny fans exemplified by this article

  • AllSeeingEye
    June 30, 2010 7:41 a.m.

    Opinions are good.

    Different opinions are better.

    I respect Mr. Robinson's opinion, but...

    His bold statement that BYU was kept from an invitation to the PAC-10 because BYU's honor code and conservative living don't fit in with the PAC-10 crowd seems as silly to me as the research school premise he seeks to debunk. Robinson has no facts to support this, only a gut feel, which is fine I guess since its just his opinion. But, it only serves to perpetuate the persecusion complex that he and his readers seem to enjoy. Otherwise, it is a huge, kinda stinky, red herring.

    Aside from the the University of Utah, the big winners after the PAC-10 announcement are the news media, who will now, for months to come, write goofy articles like this one in an effort to sell papers.

    My opinion is that anyone who thinks Utah was simply in the right place at the right time or that luck lent Utah a hand is as delusional as those who think Utah will dominate right away in PAC-10 football.

    But, hey, that's just my opinion, and opinions, even kooky ones, are good.


  • Y Grad / Y Dad
    June 30, 2010 7:32 a.m.

    Well done, Doug!

    I can't tell if you suffer from far righteous indignation, or if you write with a deliciously wicked sense of sarcasm.

    But either way, you stuck with a harpoon those readers who are infected with both.

  • Esquire
    June 30, 2010 7:12 a.m.

    Time to move on.

    By the way, Utah won't be playing in the Rose Bowl, and they are now less likely to be in a BCS Bowl. But I guess we'll see. This is only about money, not athletic success.

  • MussMan
    June 30, 2010 7:08 a.m.

    So many holes in this bitterly-toned article, I don't know where to begin...

    First, Utah has a brand new track and field facility. Maybe you should go up to the U and check it out for yourself.

    BYU should be as attractive as Notre Dame? That's one of the most short-sighted comparisons I've ever seen. Get back to me when BYU has the fanbase to command a $15 million per year TV contract from NBC. The other points have already been made in the differences between the schools.

    Utah has more conference championships all time than BYU.

    You claim that it should be about on the field performance, and you bring up BYU's bowl games in the same paragraph? Despite going to more bowl games, Utah has won more bowl games than BYU (Including two BCS games.) That's what the Utes mean when people talk about on the field performance.

    Go ahead and keep telling yourself that the only reason BYU was left out is because they're a "Mormon" school if it makes you feel better about yourself. The Utes already know the real reasons.

  • krose
    June 30, 2010 7:02 a.m.

    Quibble #1:

    "... fielded the best football program in the Mountain West for years"

    Based on what, exactly? A feeling, a desire, or by only looking at years that end in 1, 6 and 7? Popularity, perhaps? Certainly not conference championships or bowl wins.

    - BYU has four MWC conference titles (one a three-way tie). Bowl record: 3-5.

    - Utah also has four titles (one a three-way tie). Bowl record: 9-0.

    - CSU has three titles (one a three-way tie). Bowl record: 3-4.

    - TCU has two, and is expected to roll to their third this next season. (If they do, that will make three championships out of the six years they will have been the league. That's impressive.) Bowl record: 4-1.

    Unless you use some hidden criteria, the claim is completely unfounded.

  • Skinypupy
    June 30, 2010 6:57 a.m.

    Here, allow me to sum up this article for everyone: WAAAAAAAAAAAH.

    You BYU fans are bitter, bitter little people.

  • Jimmy Franks
    June 30, 2010 6:48 a.m.

    Oh, and by the way, do you really think the members in Africa or France or Chile or Brazil really give a crap about American football, let alone BYU football?

    Most BYU fans at least admit that only US Mormons are fans of BYU, but you actually extended it to people who have never owned a TV in their life.

    I'm one of those Mormons who would never tune in to watch a BYU game--did you forget about us; there are a lot of us out here in the U.S.

  • 3grandslams
    June 30, 2010 6:46 a.m.

    Truth is truth, thanks Rock for finally putting all that out there instead of letting the obvious surface in the blogosphere. Especially knowing your personal ties with the Ute program, this article reflects a reporter being a reporter, not a homer.


  • cougar76
    June 30, 2010 6:43 a.m.

    I have to agree with the Yewts on this one. This article is pathetic.

  • Jimmy Franks
    June 30, 2010 6:38 a.m.

    Are reporters now going to start pretending the Crowton years didn't happen, and that Utah won two BCS bowl games? This guy does realize that BYU has not been the top MWC team every year, right? Otherwise BYU would have been BCS Bowling.

    Also, of course the Pac-10 did not want to expand so that it could get another research institution. But, you're ignoring obvious facts if you think the academic side didn't play apart in the Pac-10's decision on which schools to invite when the decision (certainly based on money) to expand was made.

  • RobSing
    June 30, 2010 6:36 a.m.

    next article, "spare us the 'nobody likes us cause we're mormon' lines"

    that crutch is going to break if it gets leaned on any more!

  • DC
    June 30, 2010 6:31 a.m.

    Waaah! Waaah! (stomping around on the floor). BYU didn't get in because life isn't fair!
    Who cares, it's over now, and BYU did absolutely NOTHING to overcome any Pac 10 concerns. Nor have they done anything to court the Big 12. Holmoe - on a fishing trip when everything went down a couple weeks ago.
    I am a big BYU fan and always will be, but tearing down the Utes to show why BYU should have gotten in to the pac 10 doesn't work. I don't care what the Utes were like 20 years ago - in the past 7 years, they've gone to and won two BCS games. They are in an elite field right now - not alot of BCS schools that can say they've done the same thing. Give the Utes their props and lets focus on getting BYU to actually do something.

  • collegestudent25
    June 30, 2010 6:18 a.m.

    Wow a lot of ute fans up in the middle of the night over this.

  • What's up?
    June 30, 2010 5:57 a.m.

    This looks like a BYU sports release. Nothing more. For the BIG !0 & PAC 10 (or what ever they may be called) conference affilations are big money (many millions of $$$ for each research grant) for research collaboration. Schools like U of Cal, Wisconsin, Mich, UCLA don't want to work with undergraduate schools that have all kinks of academic issues with faculty and equal opportunity regulations.

  • Utah'95
    June 30, 2010 5:45 a.m.

    I write this meaning no disrespect to BYU (my undergraduate degree is from there).

    While BYU is a respected school, it is not thought of as a research university. Yes, there are better research schools than the U, but objective parties consider the U as being more of a research institution than BYU.

    Conferences have historically looked at academics along with athletic prowess when creating/changing conference affiliations. Remember, it was the chancellors and presidents of the universities that voted on the Pac 10 expansion, not the head coaches. Yes, the athletic directors played a key role, but the veto power was held by the bow tie-wearing crowd, not the guys with the whistles around their necks.

    Maybe I am naive, and some of you will accuse me of worse things, but I prefer to take the Pac 10 people at their word rather than assuming that they are lying to us.

  • Ute in Chicago
    June 30, 2010 5:40 a.m.

    Someone get Robinson his binky; the whole time I was reading this, all I could think of was an infant bawling.

    14 million byu fans? Less than 1/2 of that number are "active" Mormons, and you think the Chilean congregation cares one iota about byu football?

    Utah deserved this invite, Utah got the invite. All the whaling and gnashing of teeth by Robinson, Harmon etc. isn't going to change that. What will change is my reading of the Deseret News if these pathetic, thinly veiled shots at the University of Utah are continued.

  • Oklahoma Cougar
    June 30, 2010 4:42 a.m.

    re: New Mexico Ute

    Please define a "BCS caliber team".

    Perhaps you are talking about Arkansas or Purdue or Vanderbilt or South Carolina or Iowa State or Washington State or Baylor or Arizona State or most of the Big East schools or Minnesota or Texas Tech or Stanford or Oklahoma State or Northwestern or , etc., etc. none of whom have ever won a BCS bowl game or even invited to one. In fact only 20 or so total (AQ + non-AQ) teams have ever been to a BCS bowl-some of them over and over again (ie. OU, Florida, Texas, Ohio State, etc.).

    So, please educate us on what makes a university BCS worthy: TV market share (think Ames, Lubbock, Lincoln, Waco, Pullman, et al), library size, doctoral degree programs, ????.

    The fact is that many of the BCS AQ schools are far less worthy than BYU, but only exist on the basis of traditional relationships, geography, etc.

    Rock is correct-BYU based on its tradition is far more BCS worthy than many of the AQ schools-now to include Utah. Jealousy? Perhaps, but more anger at being left out of the club because of our fatal flaw (ie. religion).

  • Gordon
    June 30, 2010 4:25 a.m.

    I actually thought this piece was written by Dick until I checked the byline! Sour grapes delivered as yesterday's laundry...and all this in the guise of news! Is this what print journalism as sunk to in the 21st century? Now there is no doubt that the News has become the propaganda arm of the Y. Biased toward the Y of course, we all understand that. But nothing so unabashed and whiney as appeared in a long time, unless of course Mr. Harmon has been the author.

  • SJ Bobkins
    June 30, 2010 3:44 a.m.

    If you are led into thinking Utah is a "research school", you will be in for a shock when you check out the Association of American Universities web pages and discover they are not. The ute fans think by saying utah by 5 it becomes so, or utah dominates BYU or utah is a better academic university than BYU, all falsehoods.
    No university can pay their way onto membership in the AAU, you have to earn it, and utah simply has not. End of discussion, truth wins out!

  • Ashtrash
    June 30, 2010 3:20 a.m.

    Give me a break, you guys. This is called an "editorial" for a reason - it's not a hard news piece. It's one guy's OPINION. And obviously, he hit a little too close to the truth, seeing as how riled up and defensive he got you little yewties...

    My favorite part is how you yewts can only spout off facts for the last decade. (And "leading the overall series?" You're really going to run with that one, huh? Please. BYU was practically a high school team at the time.)

    Forget revisionist history, how about the Utes' lack of history? Right, it's only the last ten years that matter in college football, right!? Okay, fine. Based on your what-have-you-done-for-me-in-the-BcS-lately logic, go ahead and defend the choice of CU based on their last ten years of play. No, really, prove to me how THEY are a "BCS-caliber team" like the Utes so obviously are.

    **** crickets ****

  • LiquidUte
    June 30, 2010 2:56 a.m.

    Wow Doug, you're about to start a riot with the coug fans with this one. I didn't know you were such a homer.

    BYU "SHOULD" be as attractive as Notre Dame? Seriously?
    Yeah, maybe from Layton down to Spanish Fork.

    Lets just face it, BYU just isn't all world class like they tell everybody. Twice.

  • LMBCougarFan!
    June 30, 2010 2:29 a.m.

    Wow, you actually make Dick Harmon look good with this article.

  • LMBCougarFan!
    June 30, 2010 2:26 a.m.

    (to be read with as much of a sarcastic tone as possible) Congrats on writing an original article about viewpoints that haven't been written or talked about at all over the past few weeks.

  • Utes 31 Tide 17
    June 30, 2010 2:20 a.m.

    Sure, it might not be the truth, but it's the easiest way to rile up Cougar fans right now.

    All I know is Larry Scott has his differences with Max Hall when it comes to who's the more "deserving".

  • Boom
    June 30, 2010 1:47 a.m.

    "Otherwise, BYU should be as attractive as Notre Dame, another religious school that is repeatedly courted by BCS conferences."

    Well basically except for:

    -68 million Catholics nationwide

    - undergraduate program was ranked 20th among national universities by U.S. News & World Report for 2009-2010

    -Notre Dame has a comprehensive graduate program with 32 master's

    -25 doctoral degree programs

    -library system is one of the 100 largest in the United States.

    - eleven national championships

    -seven Heisman Trophy winners

    -sixty-two members in the College Football Hall of Fame

    But aside from this...yeah, they're basically the same school.

  • Drailed
    June 30, 2010 1:45 a.m.

    I will probably get flamed for this but here it is.

    I believe 14 million members is the total number for worldwide LDS membership. If I heard correctly only about 6 million are in the United States. I doubt most of the other 8 million care about American Football.

    If just counting the members in the United States, how many of them are actually BYU fans?

    I am sorry but I found that part of your article to be very disingenuous and misleading. The rest of it just sounded like a bunch of crying.

  • NewMexicoUte
    June 30, 2010 1:42 a.m.

    While this article maybe pro BYU to include the reporter, and also an angry BYU fan at that. This reporter leaves out who leads the rivalry since its existence, Utah (and not just within the past three decades), and probably the most important thing of all, Utah has been to and won a BCS game twice. That is one of the reasons. Unfortunately, BYU's 1980 championship is not respected regardless of its religious national following, and yes, MONEY! If I were a BYU fan, I would feel the same way, CHEATED! I also assume even if BYU had been to two BCSs and won both, that still might not be enough because of the religious affiliation. Also, BYU fans shouldn't feel like they should be placed on some peda-stool because its BYU and due to its football tradition from the past three decades of Lavell Edwards history. The more prestigious powerhouse schools deserve the recognition as their resumes (USC, Nebraska, OU, to name a few) have more championships, heisman winners, etc. Don't know what to tell you except, other than just being considered a "BCS caliber" team, you must go/win a BCS game!

  • Stenar
    June 30, 2010 1:36 a.m.

    How many BCS bowl games has BYU been in? How many bowl games has BYU won in the past decade? BYU doesn't measure up in recent athletic accomplishments.

  • GenericUser
    June 30, 2010 1:15 a.m.

    This revisionist history garbage is getting old. People like this article's author need to accept reality and stop trying to rewrite it to fit the persecution complex of BYU fans.

    I have never seen sorer losers in my life. Pathetic doesn't begin to describe these type of outbursts. Fools, the lot of you.

  • Coastal Ute
    June 30, 2010 12:55 a.m.

    Lol so much for objective reporting. Good ol' desnews.

  • Big Rock
    June 30, 2010 12:44 a.m.

    You can spout how much more deserving the BYU program is all day long, but the fact is that it didn't happen - deal with it.