On KOC and drafting Ante Tomic Even a blind squirrel finds and Acorn once in a
On your pick and roll comment. When Stockton and Malone ran it
"everyone knew what was coming and they could not stop it". When
DWill and Boozer run it everyone knows what is coming and the playoff teams tend
to stop it. The biggest problem is when a pair like Nash and
Stoudemire run it Boozer can't stop it. I guess the other question
is why did not Sloan learn from OKC that the right zone tends to give LA major
problems? After a game or two of man to man it would have been worth trying
something else. PHO almost zoned LA out. I do not think
Fes will get a lot of money but he is fully capable of getting another offer if
he were unrestricted. He was on national TV in the DEN and LA
series. Nobody expected much from him. Utah tended to hold their own or go ahead
with him in. That was not lost on a lot of GMs even if he had a lot of other
problems. If he plays 20+ minutes a game this fall a lot of teams
will get to know Fes really well.
Byronbca Yes I do understand that the flex offense is self adjusting at least
in theory. The BYU football offense is also supposed to be self adjusting. For whatever reasons the plays the Jazz run tend to be very predictable.
LA has little trouble grinding the Sloan flex to a halt. They just pack the
paint, let Kobe rove, sometimes pressure DWill and the flow is disrupted. The 3rd, 4th etc options do not matter or exist at that point.They stop the 1st and 2nd option and a bad shot goes up. Maybe it is Boozer's
ego? Maybe the Jazz are way to dependent on the PF as the 1st option? Boozer starts shooting fading jump shots. Many of the other players start
shooting ad hoc bricks. Sloan complains about jump shots.To me the
biggest problems with LA are the Jazz get out rebounded and they can't shoot
well enough from the outside. If they rebounded better then the poor outside
shooting would be less of an issue. The superior rebounding by LA
makes up for a poor shooting percentage by the LA back court. I want
management to build a team to beat LA.
Byron's comment was the funniest. 6 million a year for Fes?? hahaha. I doubt
he'll get an offer for 3 million from anyone let alone twice that much.Koufus and Fesenko both look like snails when they play. I don't know how they
can adjust to the speed of the game if they never play. I'm sure the coaches are
doing what they can, but its hard to play someone when you're playing 4 v 5 when
they are in the game.
Re Bugoff your 6:15 postIn the Jazz’s system most plays are
more like formations and once the play gets started there are 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and
sometimes 5th and 6th options. It doesn’t matter if the defense knows
what’s coming because if a defender cheats one option other options open
up. Do you honestly believe that when the Jazz run a pick and roll
on the wing they expect to surprise the other team?The best scouting
report I ever heard against the Jazz was from Pau Gasol, David Locke asked him
basically why he was having so much success against Boozer, Pau responded that
every time Boozer put the ball on the floor he would take it to the basket and
would never pass after that. So as soon as Boozer started dribbling a double
team would come. That has nothing to do with knowing their plays or Jerry Sloan,
that’s about knowing personnel.The Jazz were 4th in scoring
last year, offense wasn’t a problem. The problem was that the Lakers were
just flat out better than everybody else.
I apologize for posting two post that are about the same. I thought I posted
the one at 5:27 , took the dog for a walk, came back and couldn't find the post,
thought something must have happened and posted again, 6:27, Sorry again.
Re Jefff: Tomic may not be Gasol but if you watch him you will see why many
people say he plays alot like him. His manerisms, body language, style, size,
skills, all remind you of Gasol. Who knows if he can approach being as good as
Gasol but at least he makes you think he could.Chuck ; Why is it so hard
for people to see Fes's talent and his positive effect on the game? To me
it is amazing that so many people want to call for his head and want to replace
him, when all he needs is Playing time, coaching and encouragement.
@LKA I would respectfully disagree with one of your statements. If Sloan ever
"retired" from Utah there would be NO teams beating on his door trying to get
him to coach thier team. LA laughs out loud when the see Utah on
thier schedule. They know every play before the players step onto the court.
They know the rotations down to the minute. They know if they get a run going
there will be no time outs until the Jazz are buried. If you know
the play before the ball leave DWill's hand it is easy to get into position to
defend and rebound. It is easy to jump the passing lanes.There is
much about Sloan's philosophies, tendencies, biases and approaches that are
either out dated or basically wrong. He has changed some of them in
the past year or so. Maybe he will change enough to actually win a championship
before he "retires".
Tomic is the first to dispel comparisons with Gasol, as Pau is a star both in
the NBA and internationally with credentials to back up that status. But Tomic's
game does show favorable similarities. He is going to make a great Jazz player
when he comes over.
Re Jefff : No Tomic isn't Gasol but if you watch him he plays alot like Gasol,
he is tall and long like Gasol, shoots well, has a good jump hook with either
hand and who knows what the end product will be but if you watch him he reminds
you of Gasol.Chuck: Amen to your comments on Fes, it is funny to me
that so many fans can't see talent! Fans don't see stats and think there is no
talent, not always the case, learning how to use your talents and skills will
produce stats. Fes and KK have talent, they just need to learn how to use it,
both the coaches and the players need to work together to bring the talent out
and make them productive.Everyone needs to remember Fes got 12 boards in
the last game against the Lakers and it is games like that that will build his
confidence and help him realize what he needs to do to produce like that
Good point Chuck. Sometimes he was keeping two of them out of there so Boozer
could get another board. Boozer is alot better player when Fes is next to him
they seem to complement each other well. Boozer and Okur on the other hand do
not do well together defensively. It's a layup party. Fes is not
Dwight Howard, but his ability to plug the paint and his continued improvement
in other areas will get him minutes this year. Fes has alot more upside than
Tomic's decision to play in the ACB was the right one. We knew the guy had great
potentail, but he played in a no top team in a weark league. Now he palys unde a
great coach, a great program, in a great league, and could only benefit from 1
or even 2 extra years. And, please, Tomic is not Gasol.
So "LKA" is recommending that Jazz players fight each other for rebounds? Only
one player can get it, and any team only misses a certain number of shots. If
one guy is grabbing a lot of rebounds, it doesn't necessarily mean that the
other guy is a poor rebounder. Fesenko blocks out well, and the recipient is
usually the forward who is playing beside him in the frontcourt. Facts are: 1)
Fesenko still does have a ways to go in being the kind of player many of us know
he can be. 2) Without Fesenko, the Jazz wouldn't have made it past Denver.
@MenaceToSociety: You hit the nail on the head. They dont get to play more
meaningful minutes because they dont deserve it. They are coached by
professional coaches not armchair coaches making these posts. If Sloan were
fired there would be a dozen teams on the phone to get him.. All we can hope for
is these two bigs can see the light. They need the rebound attitude of Sap. He
must figure the ball is a piece of meat. That is Dinner and only one pearson
gets to eat.. Sap has the attitude that it is his ball and if you want it you
are going to have to fight me for it.. As long as these centers think they are
still in the seventh grade or settle for being pansies that is the end result.
We can only hope but it looks dismal. As for Tomic dont get your hopes too high
until he is there waiting for the opening tip..
Lawson got a good look at the ceiling lying flat on his back and from then on he
avoided the paint like the plague. He had been having a layup fest on Boozer and
Okur throughout the season. It's about time we had some defense in the paint.
Play Fes more. Get Almundsen to back up Milsap. Let Booze go, and get Tomic over
All of you guys wondering why Fesenko didn't get more rebounds obviously weren't
paying attention to Boozer shouting him off to grab rebounds himself. You also
weren't paying attention against the Lakers when he would go to the bench while
the Jazz had early leads only to watch from there as the Lakers overtook them
with Boozer and Millsap on the floor getting shot over by Gasol and Odom. By the
time Fesenko would get back in, the Jazz were already trying to dig out of a
hole. Minutes will come with Memo recovering and Boozer likely gone, and
confidence will come with those minutes. He won't be getting any crazy offers
either, so Utah will be able to match easily any offer he does get.
Playing garbage time does not constitute "experience and development". Garbage
time amounts to less of a work out than practice. If anything it can hamper a
player because they aren't learning to play the right way with the right
intensity.Sloan will play young players when they earn it. Matthews
earned a starting spot, Brewer started his entire second and third year, Milsap
has played heavy minutes his entire career. Each of these players earned their
time on the floor. Brewer and Milsap both developed substantially during the
offseason. What new skills has Fes ever developed during the offseason? Did Fes
and KK start training camp in-shape or did they come in overweight?Fes and KK will more time when they prove they can handle it. If a player
can't catch a pass or make a layup in practice what makes you think they can do
it in a game? Both have a long way to go before getting big minutes.Hopefully they spend the offseason working hard and becoming better players.
Maybe the Jazz should trade all of their future first round picks for second
round picks. They have a way of finding diamonds in the rough. Even Boozer and
Memo are second round picks they picked up as free agents.
@JFFR and UteologyActually no I am not crazy. I remember
Lawson getting up off of the floor after hitting Fes ONCE and refusing to drive
the paint. I remember the smirk on Melos face turn into a scowl when he realized
Fes had knocked his head off and there was nothing Melo could do about it. I remember Kobe getting hit and looking at Fez and going about his
business. He knew he got hit. Fes should have rebounded better but I
do remember one LA game where he had 12 rebounds and got them by moving Bynum
and Gasol out of the road. Fes and Koufos are in the bottom 20% of
Cs in the league right now. They will get better. There are other
young bigs who are better on offense. Mahinmi is one. There are other older
mediocre and more expensive bigs who are better on offense and better all around
players. They cost more and will not get better. I do not have a
problem with replacing Fes/Koufos with better players. But I also realize that
they are inexperienced and will get better maybe much better. Fes/Koufos are worth the wait.
Yi, just got traded from NJ to Washington, now NJ needs a vet PF to train
Favors, NJ now 30 Mill. under cap.
Re Big_Ben : My hope is that Fes and KK improve and develop alot this year and
Tomic comes over in 2011. That would give the Jazz 3 guys over 7' that can
contribute effectively, that is what we need. Then add Milsap, hopefully sign AK
much cheaper,then DWill, Mathews, CJ, Hayward, Gaines, Price, and a couple of
FA's and we will be in good shape. If Fes and KK can develop Tomic can play the
4, he is thin but tough and willing to bang.Instead of whining and
complaining everyone needs to hope Fes and KK get the time they need and develop
into players that can contribute like we need. It is not likely either one of
them are going anywhere, so hope for the best.
This has nothing to do with developing him. The Jazz would have him here right
now if they could convince him to play for 1 million this year (the most he
could be paid). This has to do with he can make more money in Europe until his
rookie contract it up
I wonder if this guy would be a 4 or a 5 for us. Probably a little of both.
Cant wait to see him.
The problem with both Fes and KK is that the coaches haven't managed them
properly. Coaches need to be able to walk the fine line of playing young
players, even though they may struggle and still win the game. Sloan is so
afraid of losing a game he won't play kids even though they have a 15 t 20 point
lead, it is true leads evaporate easily in the NBA but it is those situations
that help players mature and get better. If they only get in during mop up time
they don't get the experience they need.Players need to be put in
situations to learn and grow, make mistakes and still be trusted and situations
to gain confidence, Sloan does things to hurt players confindece not help them.
He is an old school teacher, disiplinarian type coach, hustle type players like
Mathews or Milsap seem to deal with it pretty good, CJ, Fes, KK all seem to
struggle and lack confidence.
We saw him play in Spain, he played OK but was not close to a NBA ready center.
Sloan will play younger guys if they can play. Fes and Koufos are not better
than Memo, Booz, and Millsap. That is why they do not play much. Additionally,
Fes and Koufos are being worked out by the coaches a ton that we do not see.
That is part of developing a young player. Sloan in fact has complimented the
work ether of Koufos on several occassions.I would think the reason
why Koufos and Fes do not play more is completely obvious, and the right choice
by the coaching staff.
Bugoff | 7:14 a.m. June 29, 2010 Fes will come along. He fouls hard. I do
not know of another C who is as feared in the paint and he is just beginning. He
can dunk. ------------What? Ronnie Price can dunk and
foul hard, plus he plays better defense. Unfortunately for a PG can't shoot.
If I was 7 foot I bet you I could dunk and foul hard. Lakers feared
him so much that they absolutely destroyed us in the paint for a sweep. Bynam
is more feared. No one fears Fez except for DWill when he trows him a pass only
for him to bumble it out of bounds.Fes had his chance in the
playoffs and he was horrible.
Even if the Jazz think Tomic will be a star the reality is that he won’t
be helping the Jazz this year and might not come over until 2012. I
really like Fes, I think he’s in a perfect position to have a breakout
year, but the Jazz are going to have to overpay if they want to keep him. I
fully expect him to get a 4 year front loaded offer starting at 6 million then
paying out 4 million the rest of the years.I think the Jazz need to
use this season as a development year. After Monroe got picked there were no
centers left that could have helped the jazz more than Fes or Koufos this year.
There was certainly nobody left that was as big. The truth is the
Jazz won’t be challenging for a title next this year, but next year they
will have about 20 million in cap room and could possibly pick up someone that
could be a game changer. If the Jazz develop Fess and KK they’ll be much
better off next year when it might matter.
@BugoffYou are crazy man. "I don't know of another center that is as
feared as him (Fesenko) in the paint"Really? Are you that foolish?
My only knock against Sloan is that he hasn't adapted enough to the changing
nature of the NBA. The common theme in this thread are that big guys like KK and
Fes show signs of ability but they just need playing time and experience with
the regular starters to find their niche. The only problem is, they don't get
that time because Sloan, like so many other coaches from his era, don't like to
play or have the patience to develop younger players.Watching the
Jazz struggle against the Lakers once again it became apparent that they need
guys like Fes to be able to play some minutes. I loved his toughness and
determination in his brief appearances vs LA. Sloan hasn't done
himself or the Jazz any favors by stubbornly burying these guys on the bench or
by waiting for someone else (D-League or Euro Leagues) to develop the players
If Tomic plays another couple years in Europe to "develop" he will be 25 or 26
years old before he ever gets to the Jazz. In this day and age of the NBA that's
a pretty darn old rookie. A little late to be starting a pro career. By the time
he gets his feet wet and can be a consistent contributor he'll be about 28 years
old. Not to mention the fact, Deron might to decide to bolt long before that.
You guys are just counting eggs that haven't hatched, and may not for sometime.
I say trade his rights for someone who can play now while D-Will is still here.
I've seen many highlights of the kid, and while I like his game, I don't see him
being as good as Pau Gasol.
re: Captain LKoufus and Fesenko did not even stand out much in the
D-League and Fesenko even struggled and put up mediocre numbers.I
disagree. Giving them more playing time carte' blanche is not a solution to
giving them confidence.Playing them in spot minutes when they can
have success is what will help them get confidence.Fesenko played
significant minutes in the playoffs last year because we had not choice.
Sometimes he played as much as 12-20 minutes and he was the biggest person on
the floor and yet he was only getting 1-2 rebounds and zero blocks?That clearly does not build his confidence because if he has a brain he is
wondering the same thing I am. How come I can't get a rebound out here? How
come I can't block anyones shot? How come I can't make a freethrow? It should
have been painfully obvious to anyone watching that Fesenko was struggling to
handle the mental pressure of having to be put in those situations when he
clearly was not ready to succeed and produce--unless you call getting5 fouls in
15 mintues producing?
Makes Hayward even a better pick. Williams/Tomic/Hayward.....maybe not
Stockton/Malone/Hornacek.....then again, MAYBE. It does show that mgmt have very
good heads. Now, do they have plans for the 2 and 4 for the future. Hate to wait
a year, but a year is a heck of a lot better than "whenever".
Tomic's three years will be up after this year, he has already played two years
in Europe since we drafted him and this year will be his third. I'm hoping Tomic
will have a great year this year and be anxious to come over here and prove
himself with the Jazz. Hopefully he can gain some weight and strength.
I have high hopes for both Fes and KK and I feel that both of them just need
playing time with the regulars to get comfortable and become more productive.
Both of them have alot of talent and will make the Jazz better if they are given
a chance. So far neither one of them have been given the amount of time needed.
The coaches need to help them gain confidence. Playing with confidence makes a
big difference in productivity.I am hoping Tomic wants to prove himself
against the best in the world (nba), getting Fes and KK productive this year and
then adding Tomic would make the Jazz formidable up front for years to come. All
three are 23 or younger.Except for Okur and AK the whole Jazz team is
young, DWill and Milsap are still young but are the oldest of the bunch. CJ,
Mathews, Fes, KK, Hayward, Gaines, OJ, all 23 or younger, Price is probably 25
or 26. I hope DWill sees how young this team is and sees that they can be real
good, they are already a very good team they just need their bigs to develop.
Don't you people get it? The Jazz were fine with Tomic signing a deal to stay
over there for a while to let him develop, perhaps gain some weight with age,
and generally improve his game BECAUSE he was not NBA ready when they drafted
him.His time will come. He is not Pau Gasol right now but he has
been and is getting better but he was not ready to come when they drafted him.
Why pay him to come and sit here when he was not ready for the NBA?The hypocisy on these threads is amazing. Just last week so many of you were
bashing O'Connor and demanding he be fired and what an idiot for drafting
Hayward blah blah blah.Now this week he is looking like a genius for
DRAFTING a guy IN THE 2ND ROUND, back in 2008, who is widely known as one of the
BEST PLAYERS IN EUROPE!You people ought to realize O'Conner has a
fairly good idea of what he is doing.In case you did not notice we
are not unique in our difficulty in being able to handle the Laker front line.
Adjusted for 36 minutes of play both OJ and Gaines score well (18.5, 17.6) both
rebound well (9.5, 4.8).On an adjusted basis Koufos (at 9.4)is the
3rd best rebounder after Boozer at 11.8 and OJ.
You have to wait the entire 3 years - Just like San Antonio did with Splitter
(by the way that is who I wanted the Jazz to draft when we took Almond). It is
going to be the same thing with Rubio. It has nothing to do with the
buy out, but they have to wait that long to get out of the rookie salary. If
the Jazz, Minnesota or San Antonio brings over the free agent before the 3 years
they are on the Rookie Salary meaning they would have to get paid like any
Rookie: 3 million a year unless you are the top 3 picks in the draft. Since
Tomic is second round it closer to 1 million - much less than he is making in
Europe After the 3 years, they can be signed by your team as if they
are a free agent. So San Antonio is going to use their full mid level exception
on Splitter - 5.6 Million. The Jazz will have buy him out of his contract and
use the full mid level exception on Tomic next off season
Too bad we didn`t negotiate some kinda buy-out so we could get him now,but we`ve
waited this long what`s 2 more years,gives Fes and Koufos ample time to step
up,I`m starting to wonder about both of them
Clarification A higher Offensive Rating is better (points produced per 100
possessions) and a lower Defensive Rating is better (points allowed per 100).
During the reg season and the playoffs: AK 117, 103/121,
115Millsap 113, 103/126, 112Boozer 112/102/107,114DWill
116,107/126, 119Okur 109,104/162/121Korver 116, 107/ 120,120Mathews 113, 108/ 108,115CJ 100, 107/112, 119Price 98, 106/100,
116Gaines 107, 105/ 143,119Based on the reg season numbers AK
had the best differential. There is no difference between Millsap and Boozer.
Korver is much better than most realize (he is a little slow). Mathews was about
as good as Brewer and should get much better next year. CJ has to improve his
shot selection and shooting percentages or he hurts the team. Gaines
should be playing back up PG. Maybe he will have learned the offense by next
year. In the playoffs, Millsap was much better. Okur was a beast
until injured (30 minutes). AK, DWill and Gaines were the only other positive
differentials. The Jazz could easily make a couple of changes and
go jazz i love jazz go jazz
Basketball reference indicates:Mahinmi, during the regular season
had an offensive rating of 115 and a defensive rating of 100. His playoff
numbers were 92 and 111. Gray's reg season numbers were 121 and 106.
He had no playoff numbers.Amir Johnson was 124 and 110 (better than
Bosh at 117 and 111). Amundsen was 113 and 107 in the reg season and
118 and 111 in the playoffs. The Jazz should look at Mahinmi. Gray
and Johnson have offensive talent but are not great defenders. PHO
is not noted for great defense. However, Sloan should use a variation of the
PHO/OKC zones against LA.
@TruefanYes because you're privvy to every converstion had by the
Jazz and anyone they want to talk to. For all we know the Jazz were involved and
they told him to develop over there for 3 more years. My advice to
you... Relax and breath MAN! It's only basketball.
Fes has a low WP48 mostly because of he weaknesses on offense. He also tends to
be erratic in rebounding. Over the 3 years his rebounding has declined each
year. His foul shooting is atrocious. He could improve his TOs. During the season his Offensive Rating was 100 and his Defensive Rating was
105. In the playoffs it was 78 and 117. Against great competition he really
stepped up his defense. His weakness on offense was magnified. Fes can and will
fix his problems well enough. During the regular season Mathews had
the highest Defensive Rating of 108. In the playoffs all of the Jazz jumped
their Defensive Ratings. OJ had the highest score with 124. Koufos
had a bad year during the regular season. However, in the playoffs his Offensive
rating was 81 and his Defensive Rating was 117. Mostly Koufos needs
regular minutes. He needs to get used to playing with the starters under game
conditions. He has the defensive talent. He rebounds. He needs to improve his
offensive moves and gains some confidence. Mostly he needs playing experience.
Tomic needs another year or 2 of development. He has a buyout clause after this
year. He has potential. He is not Gasol. Or if he is it will take years for him
to be able to play as well in the NBA. Fes and Koufos dominate
D-league (similar to Europe). They look good there. Fes will come
along. He fouls hard. I do not know of another C who is as feared in the paint
and he is just beginning. He can dunk. He is getting better on defense with
playing time. If he applies himself he will be able to rebound and get 10 points
(mostly point blank garbage) in 20 minutes. Koufos can play both C
and PF and is actually better at PF. He should play much better this year. If he
gets some playing time so he is comfortable playing with the starters he will
know when to expect the ball and be ready for it. He can shoot (did
in college) and can put the ball on the floor occasionally. He is still
adjusting to the speed of the game. He also needs to alter his shot. He rebounds
Spain's ACB is the second best league in the world. Another full season with
Real Madrid will only make Tomic even better when he does make the leap to the
NBA. I can't say enough about what a special player this young man is, and for
the Jazz to have his rights is just awesome.
Tomic for Monroe? Ha!
If he really wanted to play for the Jazz in this lifetime (or in the NBA
period), why did he just sign a 3 year deal this past January to play for Real
Madrid?That doesn't sound to me like a guy who has any intention of
playing here in the U.S. anytime soon. Just our luck...we latch onto
a good big guy, and he's stuck over in Europe. Why in the world did the Jazz
allow this guy to sign a new three year deal this past year? Wouldn't the time
to have intervened been then, rather then trying to work some buyout after next
If you go to YouTube and do a search on his name, you can see highlights of a
game versus Barcelona from this season--he looks light years ahead of our
current crop of centers--and he actually does look a lot like Gasol. Looking
forward to seeing him in Utah.
I wonder if we could trade him for Greg Monroe, still haven't gotten over last
week. But seriously its great to know we have some talent to help DWill in a
year from now.