Fact or fiction? The myths and realities of illegal immigration

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  • ratkellar Chicago,, IL
    Nov. 28, 2010 8:36 p.m.

    Can Deseret News point out what its rationale for this article is? Immigration is a political issue. The system should be adjusted. Illegals are here illegally. Until the law is changed, American society has a choice of 1) giving assistance to people who knowingly violated the law or 2) enforcing its laws. It makes little difference to me whether the law is enforced by Arizona or the feds. The locals do seem to have more of a vested interest in the issue.

  • Andersonsue Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 28, 2010 5:19 p.m.

    Do like the Israelis do, fine the employers a stiff fee and put the new illegals (and those that overstay their visa) in detention.

  • dumbo123 La Quinta, CA
    Nov. 28, 2010 3:44 p.m.

    Many of America's print media publications are now facing well deserved financial extinction due to their penchant for bias, censorship, and promotions of unpopular political positions, rather than reporting facts. No issue illustrates their heavy bias more than illegal immigration.

  • dumbo123 La Quinta, CA
    Nov. 26, 2010 9:19 a.m.

    God corrects the child in whom He delights, so those who break the law should be given correction that fits the crime - deportation.

  • patriotandmore Spanish Fork, UT
    Nov. 25, 2010 3:36 p.m.

    Jan Brewer for president.

  • BrentBot Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 25, 2010 11:52 a.m.

    It concerns me that we make a joke of our legal system. If a guest ignores the law should citizens also have the right to similarly pick and choose which statutes they find are too bothersome? Once it is deemed moral for the impoverished to cross a border without a passport, could not the same arguments be used for the poor to not report earned income or even file a 1040 form?

    What is the effect of mass illegal immigration on impoverished U.S. citizens? When 10 million to 15 million aliens are here illegally, where is the leverage for the American working poor to bargain with employers? If it is deemed ethical to grant in-state tuition discounts to illegal-immigrant students, is it equally ethical to charge three times as much for out-of-state, financially needy American students. What other country affords illegals entitlements?

    What are we to tell the legal immigrant from Southern Mexico who got a green card at some cost and trouble, or who, once legally in the United States, went through the lengthy and expensive process of acquiring citizenship? Was he foolish to follow our laws?

  • Freedom Huntsville, UT
    Oct. 22, 2010 7:49 p.m.

    I read the title of this article and thought, "Wow, finally a piece of true journalism." But after 1/4 the way through, I found so many holes in your arguments, that I just gave up.

    Same ole' same ole'.

    Why doesn't anyone have faith in the facts? Why is journalism used so to further personal agendas? People can decide for themselves.

    People, set out to find the facts through credible sources. Stop forwarding junk. Forward quality, confirm-able emails. Then we don't have to rely on this junk filled, poor excuse for journalism.

    I think tonight, I'll mourn the hope I had of ever reading true journalism in any newspaper.


  • Say No to BO Mapleton, UT
    Oct. 20, 2010 4:28 p.m.

    This article is from JUNE and yet it still links to the home page.
    Methinks it is a bit stale.
    But it is the LDS Inc stock-in-trade. Can't we all just get along...and ignore the reality of the impact of trespassers?

  • hardware Erda, Ut
    Oct. 18, 2010 6:19 p.m.

    What bothers me about this report is the fact that you are ignoring the word ILLEGAL....I don't care if it is one sex crime, or one drug killing, when they are illegal one is too much especially if it involves the taking of life of a U.S. Citizen. You wouldn't get away with that in Mexico.

  • Jazz Bass Man Wellsville, Utah
    Oct. 18, 2010 1:49 p.m.

    More liberally biased "journalism" trying to make people justify criminal behavior.

  • Jazz Bass Man Wellsville, Utah
    Oct. 18, 2010 1:34 p.m.

    Yet another liberally biased article that shows favor towards criminals who sneaked into our country illegally. One has only to see the words "undocumented immigrant" or "undocumented worker" in an article like this to tell you that it's overwhelmingly liberally biased.

    The article states that illegals do pay sales taxes. Yeah, duh, I think that's a pretty obvious point. Yet, the glaring ommission here is where the article fails to say how much MORE illegal mexicans use in government entitlements (eg: WIC, welfare, school, health care in ER's and everything else under the sun for their anchor babies) than they pay into the system. When are you libs in the media going to understand that we, the people, aren't buying this garbage anymore?

  • Bobo Magna, UT
    Oct. 17, 2010 11:03 a.m.

    Isn't it interesting that the media seems to only have one primary perspective on this issue? There wouldn't be such a thing as media bias, would there? The powers making money off of illegals and legal immigration, through the suppression of wages, etc., obviously have found soul-mates with those who promote open-borders for political purposes.

  • Keith39 Yuma, AZ
    Oct. 16, 2010 3:51 a.m.

    This is a impressive article filled with a great many percentages, which are matched against what total number. If there are two million people in prison how many of these prisoner illegal immgrants. I would belive you if your article put a number of illegal rather then a percentage.

    When you talk about illegal immigration, you must look at the illegal immigant as a person who has commited a felony by illegally entering or stay in our country country. Then you have to say one hundred percent of illegal immigrants are commiting a criminal act against the the citizens of this
    great United States.

    When you use a percentage you misleade the readers of the article. Use a total number for each catgory inthe article, paints a more realist picture of the illegal immigration picture.

  • kreese Taft, CA
    Oct. 14, 2010 9:08 a.m.


    I was told that Utah's gang problem would be like California within eight years.

    If this is true, is this what you want?

  • A view from the Beltway Purcellville, VA
    Oct. 11, 2010 9:48 a.m.

    Sorry jjc16, that was not the way the comparison was couched. They were not measuring the percentage of the various strata that committed crimes, rather of those that committed crimes, what percentage came from which stratum.

    Ergo, totally different question leading to a totally diffent inference.

  • Conservative Veteran Layton, UT
    Oct. 11, 2010 9:38 a.m.

    You may argue either way to support or be against the Arizona law, but isn't it a break from proper legal procedure for the federal judge to hear the case? As I understand it, this court should only have been heard by the US Supreme Court.

    In the Constitution, Article 3, Section 2 reads:
    "In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction."

    In other words, the judge in the Arizona case had absolutely no constitutional jurisdiction over the matter upon which she ruled. As the constitution makes abundantly clear, only the U.S. Supreme Court can issue rulings that involve a state.

    This seems so simple. Is there something I am missing here? I would enjoy additional comments from others on this. I am surprised not to here more on this topic.

  • A view from the Beltway Purcellville, VA
    Oct. 11, 2010 6:22 a.m.

    Congratulations on writing a cogent, evidence-based article on an emotional subject. I am particularly impressed that you also cited relevant comparison groups. For example, the Consortium for Police Leadership in Equity study, compared the 27% drug crime and 26% violent crime rate to the 28% prevalence rate of all Latinos in Salt Lake City’s population. This indicates that in Salt Lake City, the hypothesis that the Hispanic illegals are causing a disproportional amount of crime is false.

    Everyday citizens assume that “Washington” does not listen to them when “Washington” does not does not allocate massive resources every time a loud group of citizens claims there is a problem. In reality, the policy establishment has to choose between which each of our many national priorities needs to be addressed. When citizens demand decisions that are contrary to the best available empirical evidence, “Washington” is put into the uncomfortable position of having to decide between miss-allocating scarce taxpayer resources to appease interest groups or allocating scarce resources to solve real problems.

    Since the hard empirical evidence shows that undocumented person crime is no higher than local crime, then scarce resources are better allocated to solving our real problems.

  • MCKat Murray, UT
    Oct. 10, 2010 1:30 p.m.

    It is sad to see the number of people who would rather base decisions on rumors and myths than solid evidence. Is some of the evidence biased? Maybe. But it's more solid than just grabbing numbers out of thin air. At least this article cites its sources so readers can choose to look up the data themselves.

    As for those posters who claim "illegal is illegal," they broke the law getting here so they are criminals," and those types of comments, it would be interesting to find out how many of them have had a speeding or parking ticket in the past five or ten years. Or how many of them have sped, parked illegally, jaywalked, or committed other minor offenses, but were simply never ticketed? They've broken the law, too. Shall we send the police out to arrest them?

    The article didn't write the definitive story. But it's a much better starting point than most of the garbage that gets passed around or posted on worldnetdaily.

    Incidentally, I like the new monitoring. A lot of hate still present, but not as much as before. Thank you, Des News.

  • attentive
    Aug. 28, 2010 2:15 a.m.

    One other comment that may or may not get posted: Who are the writers calling "white," as if it's a bad word or some kind of disease? Who's White anymore these days? Not many of any of us. We are all a little bit something other than lily white. So who are all these Whites and where do they live? How did anyone poll all these Whites anyway?

  • UtahBlueDevil
    Aug. 27, 2010 7:11 p.m.

    A funny sidebar on this is DN in parallel to this story also has a story entitled "Book reveals truth about Obamacare". Now, do you think this was an objective review of the book? Hardly. And yet conservatives see one article that doesn't match the dialog they have created around health care and they scream the DN has become a tool of the liberal media. Talk about things becoming hyper emotional.

    Balanced discussion has become a complete impossibility with some of these people.

  • UtahBlueDevil
    Aug. 27, 2010 12:48 p.m.

    So conservatives can fact check when they don't like what is reported, but it seems they lack that skill completely when they see something they like. I know, it is human nature, but the rants on this page about how liberal the Deseret News has become just shows how far extreme right some people have become. Some of Utah has slide so far right that kids sharing crayons in school would be socialistic now days.

    I am suer there are issues with these numbers since many are derived and not direct. I think if you just take a step back and look at the overall message, it should just be a warning to both sides that not all numbers you read or hear from wither side should be taken at face value.

    The article wasn't not justifying illegals, but rather just trying to ratchet down the radical rhetoric a bit. Evidently the fact that illegals are not the source of all of Utah's ills is quit disturbing to some.

  • SLars
    Aug. 26, 2010 11:55 p.m.

    The article left out murders in Salt Lake City. From numbers obtained by KSL through Chief Burbank on May 3rd, for the past three years. (2006, 2007, 2008). White non Hispanic's committed 16%, Hispanic's 40%, Polynesian 19%, African American 22%, Native American, 3%.

    He is hoping next time you question a larger demographic, and not use the obviously slanted numbers of Chief Burbank.


  • SLars
    Aug. 26, 2010 11:54 p.m.

    "Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank has suggested looking at prison populations to figure how many criminals are undocumented aliens."

    This would of been a great start to the articles, as it dealt with hard facts, not picking and choosing with studies to believe. You contact the state and get the prision population for a particular day. Then break down the numbers. Another media outlet in town did the same thing, the first of August 2009. They found that the known (some had not had citizenship checked) illegal population under the state department of corrects was, 341. 254 were from Mexico, one from Europe, four from North America, 6 from South America, seven from Africa, 30 from Asiz, and 37% from South America.

    Types of crimes? 43% sex offenders, 19% murder, drugs and alchohol 15%, personal crime 11%, property crime 6%, other 6%.

  • danaslc
    July 26, 2010 12:27 a.m.

    We are not idiots and it is not just white as you so called us (putting us as a race). It is legal Hispanics, Legal Germans, Legal Citizens period that have a problem with Illegal, Illegal, Illegal. The is nothing wrong with legal immigrants there is so much wrong with Illegal Immigrants and if you noticed I did not mention a race like you did in this article. Your propaganda will not work. We have you pegged. You can say it like you want it, call it what you want and treat us like we are dumb. It won't work with the US citizen anymore no matter what the race. As Citizens of this country there is no race got it? We are American Citizens.

  • Christine
    July 25, 2010 4:37 p.m.

    Why is the racist mob so afraid of the truth? Why are they so blind and want to stay that way? Why is your prejudice more important than the facts?
    Why is being right (although you're not) more important than being happy?

  • Drifter
    July 25, 2010 12:59 p.m.

    Now I remember why I will not pay this paper for a subscription. This article is a bunch of crap.
    All this so called reporter has to do is go to the jail and count the number of illegals there-it will be about 25 to 30%. Come on down to Provo and talk to the cops-it takes $20 to 30K a year to cover in up the graffiti on all the buildings. All tax money to jails and paint. Why do we let this go on? What has to happen to make people see what is coming? Drugs, gangs and prostitution. Why are U.S. Citizens putting up with this?????

  • danaslc
    July 25, 2010 11:02 a.m.

    Illegal. Job killing, welfare assistant killing, tax on the middle class, schooling for our children (horrible), crime, drugs and just plain cheating the system. What is there to like about illegal immigration? The only ones I know who like it are our Construction Companies, roofing companies, cement companies, food franchise companies, maid service companies, retail stores, restaurants and janitorial services. This is ironic because all we hear is doing the jobs American's won't do? That is lie and a farse. My son works construction, laid off and the illegal next is working. My teenager would like to work at a burger joint for extra money. Job taken. Illegal immigration is punishment to the middle class of america for the gain of Corporate America.

  • jjc16
    July 18, 2010 3:36 a.m.

    @maximum: I'm not sure what school you learned statistics in, but 27% of the population committing 28% of the crimes is exactly what one would expect statistically.

    If it was 5% of the population committing 95% of the crimes, that would be an anomaly.

    Ergo, illegal immigrants and Hispanics aren't responsible for a disproportionate number of the crimes committed in this state.

  • jjc16
    July 18, 2010 3:33 a.m.

    Oh no, the racists on the site are sooooo mad!!! They want to hate the illegal immigrants, but the hard facts and data just won't let them. How dare the facts get in the way of immigrant bashing!

  • strider
    July 7, 2010 7:48 p.m.

    RE: celtics77

    I agree. Is this an issue of illegal immigration or is it an issue of color? I am very opposed to illegal immigration. However, I think legal immigration should be easier. I had a friend in Peru (mission) who had a master's degree in engineering. He had been waiting on a residency visa for 7 years.

    Perhaps we selectively enforce immigration to keep our social status the way it is. Americans get the good jobs, illegal immigrants can come take the jobs we don't want. However, we don't have room in this country for educated people who might take away jobs we want to keep for "our kind."

    I think the problem lies in the seeming paradox of policy and enforcement. We discourage people from coming legally yet we blatantly ignore those who come illegally.

  • maximum
    July 7, 2010 9:12 a.m.

    Some interesting observations on this article.

    Twenty-seven percent of crimes are by Hispanics yet they only 28% of the population is Hispanic. Sounds like a disproportionate number of crimes are from Hispanics.

    I wonder if all of the fake/stolen social security numbers used to pay income taxes are included in these crimes?

  • attentive
    July 1, 2010 11:08 p.m.

    re: Dumbo123 There's nothing more factual than an eye-witness account. I hope people will read what you wrote and will see that you aren't calling names but just stating facts. It seems obvious to me already what is happening to Utah. Watching the news day by day, almost every single crime in WVC has a connection with an illegal alien.

  • Facts Are Fun!
    July 1, 2010 3:21 p.m.

    Myth: Immigrants will cause massive, unnecessary population growth in the United States.

    FACT: As the baby boomer generation begins to retire and the U.S. fertility rate declines, it will be necessary to replace our aging workforce with immigrants to maintain economic growth.

  • Facts Are Fun!
    July 1, 2010 3:18 p.m.

    Myth: Immigrants take jobs from Americans.

    FACT: Immigrants create new jobs, and complement the skills of the U.S. native workforce.

  • davidjay
    July 1, 2010 12:09 p.m.


    How in the world can you classify my opinion on illegal immigration. Do you just assume, because I am against hate, I'm for illegal immigration? If so, you are mistaken my friend. I believe that we need to have reasonable immigration laws that are strongly enforced.

    But all the hate spewed here proves that most of the posters did not read the article. Either that, or they have severe reading comprehension problems, because many of the posts had no relation to what was printed. Media talking points were regurgitated even when they had been proven in error.

    Hating everyone and everything is wonderful. It isn't Christian and it doesn't align with the tenants of most major religions, but it is evidently allowed and encouraged in Utah. I find it saddening because I never learned to hate like this.

  • Brian H.
    July 1, 2010 11:55 a.m.

    Sorry to ruin the fun, but I've done a lot of research on immigration (not like reading the paper, watching tv, or armchair philosophizing, I mean actual academic research for a university). This article is the best non-academic summary of what is *actually* going on when it comes to immigration. You can blame them for using biased sources if you want, but no truly objective observer can argue with me when I say that their sources (liberal as they may be) are more accurate than most of the sources thrown around. I know you people in Utah hate it when the liberals are right, but this might not be your battle. It's easy to articulate anti-illegal-immigrant rhetoric that seems logical, but incredibly difficult to support it with empirical data. The data don't agree with you, and I know which I trust more. Public opinion has been wrong more than once. I don't know where we'll end up in 20 years on the immigration issue, but I'd rather not allow the frightened public voice to outweigh fact and reason.

  • RobertBennett
    July 1, 2010 9:13 a.m.

    Obama will tear down the borders like Regan did the Berlin wall.

    This what America wanted when they voted for Obama.

  • Reggie
    July 1, 2010 8:19 a.m.

    @Celtics77: I'm amazed that there aren't more Hispanic voices like yours. I don't think this is a race issue, it's about law and order. We can't open our borders to Africa, Bosnia, Russia, the islands and Mexico and NOT have some serious problems. It so happens that for Mexicans, they have the easiest way to get here. It's not fair for those who are trying to get in legally. The legal Hispanic community should be outraged at what the illegals are doing to them.

    @David Jay and others: you hide behind compassion. Where is the fairness of your "open arms" manifesto. Law and order buddy. Law and order.

  • davidjay
    July 1, 2010 7:24 a.m.

    The number of posters who didn't read the article is interesting. Evidently their preconceived ideas can't be challenged.

    This is one of the better pieces I've seen on this issue. It was well thought out, intelligently presented and shows how hard it is to get at the truth. Kudos to the authors and the DN.

    It is a shame that our education system and religious institutions have failed to teach several generations to use logic and reason before arriving at an opinion.

    Let the hate continue here in the comment session.

  • attentive
    June 30, 2010 7:21 p.m.

    When I look at the world, I see some countries that contribute to the world as a whole - in technology, medicine, or some other worthwhile way. To just focus on Mexico, what is coming out of there other than illegal aliens? Well? Any Nobel Prize winners? All I see is "give me, give me, give me." Someone posted here that they would like to see Americans and Canadians immigrating to Mexico so there would be a balance. Funny. I wouldn't even vacation in Mexico is I were paid to go. What would the chances be that I could come back without being robbed or shot? How many murders have taken place there in just the past 2 days? One of them a politician, and one a nationally known singer. If they weren't safe, who would be? When crime is so strongly linked to one nationality (read the papers, watch the news), why should any American want to see more immigrants from that country come here? And ILLEGAL on top of it.

  • TMR
    June 30, 2010 3:35 p.m.

    Thanks DN for an impressive article! It was one of the better pieces I have read on this issue.

  • 42istheanswer
    June 30, 2010 1:18 p.m.

    So what you are saying there is no reliable source of information on this.

  • CindyinSC
    June 30, 2010 12:49 p.m.

    Thanks for the information. There was an important part of immigration (legal or illegal) that you did not cover, though. Language. I think one of reasons that many have prejudice against Hispanics is that they do not speak English. Sure it takes some time to learn, but if you came to America to enjoy our freedom, opportunities, and lifestyle, please learn our language so you will truly be seen as American.

  • Elcapitan
    June 29, 2010 11:04 p.m.

    Illegal immigration of US citizens is not tolerated in Mexico, yet, they expect to do it here and get away with it. They still think they own the US. Our weak President Obama fears the hispanic voters. Well, he will get a WAKE UP CALL if his malfeasance in office persists in the next two elections.

    Vote him out and all his leberal friends with him. His agenda is Marxist.

  • celtics77
    June 29, 2010 6:17 p.m.

    I would really like to hear what people think of my scenerio. My family immigrated to the USA from a South American country to Eastern US early 90s. My father studied in the US as a international student in the 70s, and applied for and obtained his residency.He left the US for what he thought was for good. Thirty years later with USA college degree and fluent english he found it hard to make in our home country. He decided to come the US not knowing if his residency was still valid. We came to the USA on tourist visas. One of the first things my father did was check to see if his Residency was valid, which it was. He applied for citizenship years later, and then applied for the rest of us. This meant we were here undocumented (illegal) for about 6 years while everything was processed. I know we paid thousands of dollars in fines. I didnt find this out until I was a teenager and went to take our interview. At times I feel like a hypocrite for the views I hold, but me coming to the states was not in my control.

  • celtics77
    June 29, 2010 6:06 p.m.

    As a hispanic I am very conservative regarding illegal immigration. I believe it is wrong and agaisnt the law, regardless of why people choose to enter the United States illegaly. It's illegal and that can't be argued. The issue I have is I often question weather people are really against illegal immigration, or if they are agaisnt immigration as whole. At times I feel that that people are agianst hispanics. Comments such as "we need to stop the brownizing our our country", "Mexicans try to impose their culture, and can't assimilate"... and many more along those lines.

  • Jean Clelland-Morin
    June 29, 2010 12:45 p.m.

    Wow. I was momentarily (only momentarily) surprised at all the hate from those (behind pseudonyms) who claim to be more expert on the subject of immigration than the authors of this article. / What needs to be addressed is the corruption and complicity between governments. Another problem comes from the use of drugs by U.S. citizens. Have we not learned anything about building walls between peoples? Flag Wavers seem to think they are superior to immigrants because they happened to be born in the U.S. / I'm 72, an ex-Mormon, grad of BYU and grew up in that racist, sexist, us-and-them, better-dead-than-red family. When I pierced my ears, my father said it was "barbaric, just like those greezy Mexican girls". The mentality continues. // Jean Clelland-Morin

  • Bob Pomeroy
    June 29, 2010 12:31 p.m.

    Shocking that so many people (apparently) believe that the truth is limited to their own beliefs.
    Thousands fled the colonies from the red-flaggers, leaving all id behind, and crossed into the US 'sin papeles'. We embraced them. It is inconsistent to have different rules for others.
    Not to fear. Truth will prevail. Shouting something does not make it true.

  • Tom
    June 29, 2010 12:29 p.m.

    Thanks for the article. I wish we could all talk together and look at the issue from the big picture perspective. These are real people, good people on the whole. They make many contributions. We are doing our country a real disservice by not looking at a comprehensive solution to this problem.

  • utetubaguy
    June 29, 2010 11:47 a.m.

    I appreciate the Deseret News taking a critical look at numbers we hear on this issue. I was an ESL teacher at a High School in the Salt Lake valley and as such worked closely with the 5% hispanic population.I don't have direct numbers but from speaking with my students I would estimate that less than 10% of them were undocumented. One student in particular really broke my heart. She was a straight A student and would not be able to attend college after graduation because of her undocumented status. Our country will lose a significant contributer because of the decions her parents made. The decision to leave was made for her she never had the chance to make the decision for herself. If we account for undocumented children that NEVER DECIDED to enter illegally the numbers of law breakers drops dramatically.I understand that our laws should be enforced but we need to be pragmatic and compassionate as we look at this situation. Thank you DN for pointing out what I already knew the numbers we are dealing with are not as high as we think.

  • Ginger
    June 29, 2010 11:41 a.m.

    The US has only limited immigration for 90 years of its 234 year history except for a few clearly racist laws aimed at Asians. The problems with large numbers of illegals started shortly after the laws came into effect.
    The law enforcement statistics for the cities and counties of southern Arizona have shown a decline in violent crime over the last decade.

    I just love the "I can't hear you! You can't confuse me with facts!" reactions. It does Utah proud. Where did these commenters learn this? Did you not learn these reactions indicate a serious cognitive problem in school?

    Oh, wait, Utah is dead last in per pupil spending in schools. Never mind.

  • Arizona Boy
    June 29, 2010 9:35 a.m.

    I wish everyone could watch video of just one week from the Arizona border. You would see home being broken into, illegals stealing, illegals KILLING when confronted by the homeowner or rancher, drugs being traded, 24 illegals being crammed in one vehicle, all of this in temperatures of 110 to 120 degrees which makes it even worse for tempers, etc., etc., etc.. The borders MUST be shut down excpet for LEGAL crossing! I wish these reporters were forced to live on the border in a tent and watch all of this!

  • jg2010
    June 29, 2010 9:12 a.m.

    So I was driving the other day and a cop pulled me over. My eyes were bloodshot and my car smelled like marijuana. Do you know what the cop did?! He searched my car and arrested me for possession of illegal drugs! Can you believe this! We need to band together and fight this kind of injustice! Can you imagine living in a country where you get punished for doing something illegal! Preposterous!

  • Deportation Glitch Lady
    June 29, 2010 8:59 a.m.

    "wrz | 11:33 p.m. June 27, 2010
    True, and the penalty for speeding is a ticket and a fine. The penalty for being in this country without authority is deportation."

    Great comparison, but why don't you go all the way. First time speeding ticket can be remedied. Those who are in the us without authority have remedies as well.

    Without authority is a broad subject. If you become implicated in a crime you did not commit, you lose immigration status. You are now in the US without authority. If the backlog of files waiting at USCIS is the reason your file got misplaced and are now facing deportation because your file seemingly never made it to USCIS, you are in the US without authority.

    Just a speeding driver can negotiate his status, so can the immigrant present in the US "without authority".

  • Vanka
    June 29, 2010 8:29 a.m.

    Is this the John Pack Lambert of Michigan show?

    There should be a limit on how many posts a single person can post, just as there should be a limit on the number of immigrants from other countries.

    But we can't limit what we can't control. If unknown numbers of immigrants are entering the country illegally, we cannot limit how many enter the country.

  • Not So Fast
    June 29, 2010 12:20 a.m.

    This is the best story the newspaper has produced in year. Nobody does this kind of thing these days.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    June 28, 2010 10:26 p.m.

    Due to the fact that Russians are rarely suspected as being illegal immigrants but some assume any Mexican is, the percentage of Latinos processed in the courts likely exceeds the actual percentage of Latinos among undocumented immigrants in Utah.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    June 28, 2010 10:09 p.m.

    "Taking jobs" is a false notion.
    There is not a fixed number of jobs. Here in Michigan most of those who create jobs are immigrants. Entrepeneurs start up new companies and create new jobs all the time.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    June 28, 2010 10:02 p.m.

    Rep. King's letter is disturbing for another reason beyond the fact that it uses totally false statistics.

    It is written in a way to make it seem that undocumented immigrants are killing "us Americans". However, some percentage of traffic fatalities from drunk driving involve a drunk driver crashing into a tree and dieing.

    Such deaths are tragic. However they do not indicate that undocumented immigrants pose a threat to others. Realistically we should exclude one-car collision deaths of the driver from the stat.

    Re-reading the stats it should be emphasized that the study said nothing about how many of these deaths involved drunk driving.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    June 28, 2010 9:56 p.m.

    The WorldNetDaily article, at least in the line quoted does not support Representative King's claim. "Without a Valid License" clearly includes revoked and suspended licenses.

    Even people who drive with no license at all are not neccesarily illegal immigrants or immigrants of any type. There was a case recently involving a women who was born in Detroit who was involved in an accident in Ohio in which at least one of her children was killed. She not only did not have a license, she had never had a driver's license, although she had had a state revocation of her drivers license due to various stops for drunk driving and other traffic violations in the past.

    Also, it should be noted that the study referenced does not even say that these are caused by people without valid drivers licenses. From the wording it could be someone driving down the street who lacks a valid drivers license and gets hit head-on by a drunk who has a valid license swerving across the median line.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    June 28, 2010 9:42 p.m.

    Your comment "if you don't like the law, than try to change it" seems a little odd in this context. Since people justify the denial of civil rights inherent in the Arizona law by saying it is a major crime wave we are dealing with and related things, it makes sense to seek to inform public policy with real statistics.

    I do object to the articles statement about "misconceptions that white people have". Some of the most virulent anti-immigrant voices come from African-Americans firmly entrenched in inner cities, and in some cases even more so from African-Americans who have managed to move out of the slums.

    A common claim is "if the illegal immigrants were black they would not be tolerated". This ignores the fact that a large percentage of immigrants from countries such as Ivory Cost and Senegal in New York City and Washington DC are here in violation of immigration rules. Most of them came here on tourist or student visas and just stayed after they expired, so it is slightly different than the situation of those who never had a visa, but essentially the same.

  • Señor
    June 28, 2010 9:37 p.m.

    What would you do? Try putting yourself in the situation "illegals" find themselves. Any of us will do what we have to do to survive and best care for our families. If you have hate, fear, or disgust for Hispanics it's because you have no positive personal connection. Do you have an Hispanic friend? It doesn't matter if this friend is a legal citizen or not because because many folks just lump them together. I have spent a life time trying to understand the Hispanic culture. If we are trying to place blame where it belongs let us first blame the very corrupt Mexican government for making their county less desirable than the US. Next let us blame the US economy that encourages illegal immigration. Let's not place all the blame on human beings who, for the most part, are hard working, family oriented people. Why do they break the law? Why do you break the speed limit? Is it because laws that are very difficult to enforce are the ones that are most likely to be broken? Fear and hate will never replace an honest effort to UNDERSTAND.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan
    June 28, 2010 9:36 p.m.

    If people are surprised by the Deseret News advocating treating our fellow sons and daughters or God as such and not as pieces of trash to be sent back to where they happened to be born (or in cases of some children, where their parents were born and they never have been) than they clearly do not listen to General Conference enough.

  • coltakashi
    June 28, 2010 7:05 p.m.

    A lot of these statistics claim that it is impossible to distinguish illegal from legal immigrants. But when hospitals and schools and other government agencies provide services, they generally are required by law to provide translation services in order to NOT discriminate illegally against people on the basis of national origin and ethnicity. therefore, bimply by keeping track of the number of cases in which translation services were supplied, we would have an approximate surrogate for the number of illegal aliens being served. While some legal immigrants are not fluent in English, some illegal immigrants undoubtedly are fluent, so there should be a rough comparability between lack of english fluency and illegal immigrant status. Since translation services (often rendered using a telephone link to a commercial translation service) cost money, those costs have to be tracked, so hospitals and other service providers should have readily accessible data on the number of persons needing Spanish translation in connection with a public service. Before the Utah Legislature adopts Arizona's law, it should collect this real data first.

  • Walt Nicholes
    June 28, 2010 6:48 p.m.

    You have done what seems to be a pretty good job of "exploding the myths" by telling us what is NOT fact. How abut some research into what IS fact (and it is not just the flip side of NOT fact.)

    Investigative reporters investigate. The numbers that this article came up with are just as soft as the ones they are designed to rebut.

    So, how about the following: Send reporters (maybe even hispanic ones - do you have any of those?) to the streets and corners where hispanics hang out looking for work, and find out from them how many are illegal? Do similar interviews in emergency rooms. Do similar interviews at the prison. Do similar in the schools. Then publish your raw data as well as your interpretation of the data

    Better numbers are needed.

    Or, pass the law and see what happens. It can always be repealed if it doesn't turn up many illegals.

  • Global Warner
    June 28, 2010 5:23 p.m.

    Excellent research-based reporting by some of Des News’ top & most credible writers. Thank you for interjecting a dose of data & sanity into the extremist allegations that have been promulgated by a range of hucksters including racist whites, Tea Partiers, some Utah legislators, & others who fear to keep America’s promise engraved on the Statue of Liberty: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
    The America I love, as did Ronald Reagan, was to be “a shining city on a hill,” as he put it in his farewell address to the nation. He declared our America to be “a tall proud city built on rocks stronger than oceans, wind-swept, God-blessed, & teeming with people of all kinds living in harmony & peace, a city with free ports that hummed with commerce & creativity, & if there had to be city walls, the walls had doors & the doors were open to anyone with the will & the heart to get here. That's how I saw it, & see it still.”

  • johntakarl
    June 28, 2010 4:37 p.m.

    Bunch of bunk... Anyone can get numbers to fit what they want! Who is behind the group that did the study is what I want to know.. Ties to someone I am sure... Illegal is illegal.

  • Moosehead
    June 28, 2010 4:35 p.m.

    This whole article is fiction. And that's a fact....

  • Moosehead
    June 28, 2010 4:34 p.m.

    If the population of the USA is 305,000,000 and 12,000,000 of them are illegals, that means illegals make up nearly 4% of the population. And since they have made it clear by their very presence that they don't believe in obeying laws, I think it is safe to assume that they commit at least 4% of rapes, robberies, murders, assaults, etc. I really don't think we need that much additional crime. Do you?

  • Moosehead
    June 28, 2010 4:20 p.m.

    The idea that the illegals are paying income taxes and social security taxes is ludicrous. Do you honestly think they are going to file a tax return without a social security number? Do you think the unscrupulous thugs who knowingly hire them are going to forward withholding taxes (or their matching portion) using social security numbers they know are false? And the illegals pay very little property tax because very few of them own property other than motor vehicles. The only taxes they pay fairly are sales taxes.....

  • Moosehead
    June 28, 2010 4:15 p.m.

    If illegal immigration is such a wonderful thing, why doesn't every country allow it?

  • Moosehead
    June 28, 2010 4:12 p.m.

    This article is a complete and total waste of space. Illegals do commit crimes. They do evade taxes. They do take jobs from Americans. They do absorb billions of dollars in government services. They do send billions of dollars out of the country to the folks back home. They do deal drugs. The do commit identity theft. They do commit rapes, murders, robberies and assaults. They do routinely commit offenses that would land citizens in trouble, if not jail. And none of it could or would be happening if they weren't here illegally. Case closed. Send them home.

  • LDS
    June 28, 2010 4:08 p.m.

    Thanks for a great article. Regardless of how, when or who does a study (even scientific), there are always those that refute and discredit the data. When our ideologies screen our perceptions, then we already "know" what is true even before we see facts!

    Your study confirms what other studies have shown for the last decade. You are to be commended.

    Here in Utah, where far-right ideology rules, we will never overcome the predjudice and hate toward Hispanics. A very loud and hateful minority seem to sway the elected officials in their lawmaking.

    It is a sad tale of a people that should be a light unto the world of love. I believe it is a quiet majority here that do in fact love and want our Mexican and Hispanic friends to stay.

  • M. Butler
    June 28, 2010 2:14 p.m.

    "The mere fact that it's easier to enter illegally from Mexico than from Darfur should not be an advantage for the pathway to a better life."

    Some genius said that a long ways up.

    Do you still agree if we make a minor change: "The mere fact that it's easier to live in the U.S. if you're born here should not be an advantage for the pathway to a better life"?

  • Danish American
    June 28, 2010 1:10 p.m.

    You can use statistic to prove anything you want if you start with the end in mind. Perfect example, man-made global warming. I can prove a correlation between peanut butter and cancer. Doesn't make the stats accurate.

    100% of the illegals are a crime. That is the only statistic the article didn't quote. They are not undocumented--they are here illegally.

    I wish they would have also looked into the movement among many of these illegals about rebellion and forcefully taking back what they think is their sovereign right--now that would have been a worthwhile article--not this dribble they wrote.

  • Fender Bender
    June 28, 2010 9:42 a.m.

    I refuse to accept the facts presented in this article because none of them 'feel' like the truth. I just don't get a sense of 'truthiness'.

  • azresident
    June 28, 2010 8:18 a.m.

    Nobody's_Fool--great post. I wonder how many different means, such as the Noriega rule, the illegals receive funding from the taxpayers? I never heard of the Noriega rule but it doesn't surprise me. How many of our own kids who attend out of state colleges would love to be able to pay in-state tuition?

    We ought to be noting and listing what we learn from each other on this board regarding illegals receiving state and federal funding.

  • Ginger
    June 28, 2010 5:58 a.m.

    What I am seeing here is an attempt to cast some light on the urban legends connected with illegal residents. Of course it is not "balanced", the other, misleading side of the question is already out there. These are the answer which show they are misleading or groundless. One doesn't balance fallacy with truth, one replaces fallacy with truth. We should all be biased toward truth. That is not a 'liberal' position, that is a rational position.

    If you still oppose the de facto immigration status in the nation after you remove these myths from your thinking, so be it. But don't build your conclusions on a foundation of sand.

    A number of the comment also indicate a great deal of reliance on 'zero sum' logic: that there is a limited amount of work, care or wealth which must be divided between us all. This is really strange coming from those that have adopted the gospel of capitalist growth which asserts that innovation always brings growth and that growth is good. You can't have it both ways, either we grow and prosper together or your work ethic is based in a lie. Please choose only one.

  • Geneina
    June 28, 2010 1:42 a.m.

    The reporters got some facts right but failed to draw all of the correct conclusions.

    For example, the reporters correctly pointed out that the Social Security Administration has estimated about three-quarters of illegal workers have taxes for Social Security and Medicare taken out of their paychecks.

    The reporters' conclusion is that these illegal aliens pay taxes and help prop up the struggling Social Security system. This is correct but another equally valid conclusion is that illegal aliens commit major felonies in order to get jobs.

    In order to pay Social Security and Medicare taxes, illegal aliens have to have Social Security numbers (SSN) but because they are illegally in the U.S. they cannot legally obtain an SSN. Therefore, they fraudulently obtain SSNs and this is a felony.

    When they use the fraudulently obtained SSNs to get jobs, they falsify their I-9 forms. That is perjury and another felony.

    If the illegally obtained SSNs they are using belong to Americans, under Utah law that is also a felony.

    Thus, the most important conclusion is that a minimum of 75% of illegal aliens are committing major felonies. These are crimes, not simple civil infractions.

  • juaneco
    June 28, 2010 1:33 a.m.

    On the other hand... those of us who are educated, can see patterns, are smart and have vision... perceive the growth curve, identify future needs, grab an opportunity and capitalize on the statistics presented here! Leave behind the mediocrity of those pesimistic loosers who are not only close minded have their already narrow view obscured by a scarcity mentality.
    Send your kids to learn a second language: Chinese, Spanish, etc. Have them become immigration lawyers, have them learn from other cultures, send them abroad and allow them to see the world thorugh a different set of "lenses", different from the typical and sad set we are used to here in Utah. I promisse you that your kids will thank you and you'll be grateful to know they are not having to compete for the "fry guy" at the local hamburger joint.

  • Hunt
    June 28, 2010 1:11 a.m.

    Hey byronbca, what party do O'reilly and Beck claim to be a member of? Since you are so sure of the fact that they spread propaganda I'm sure your spending a good amount of your time getting the facts straight. Posting information as fact that is so obviously false will only make you look about as ignorant as one Milwaukee County Board Supervisor who wants to join in the boycott of Arizona, because after all, they don't even boarder Mexico.

  • juaneco
    June 28, 2010 12:50 a.m.

    On the other hand... those of us who are educated, can see patterns, are smart and have vision... perceive the growth curve, identify future needs, grab an opportunity and capitalize on the statistics presented here! Leave behind the mediocrity of those pesimistic loosers who are not only close minded have their already narrow view obscured by a scarcity mentality.
    Send your kids to learn a second language: Chinese, Spanish, etc. Have them become immigration lawyers, have them learn from other cultures, send them abroad and allow them to see the world thorugh a different set of "lenses", different from the typical and sad set we are used to here in Utah. I promisse you that your kids will thank you and you'll be grateful to know they are not having to compete for the "fry guy" at the local hamburger joint.

  • juaneco
    June 28, 2010 12:38 a.m.

    Easternobserver: wow! You have hit the nail right on the head!
    "If we weren't lazy and choosy there would be no jobs for illegal immigrants" that is sooo right! Everyone, just think about it: if an employer could hire a legal worker to do what it needs who would do it with a great attitude, a smile and a thankfull heart as many immigrants (even those documented) do then why in heck would they risk hiring an undocumented worker?
    And if most jobs taken by undocumented workers are the low skilled/low paid ones...shame on the parents of those unemployed for allowing their kids to become ignorant, unskilled, mediocre bums who have to fight for the crums against people who ovbiously have more heart, passion and spirit.
    Those of you who are sending your kids to school to become janitors, landscapers and dishwashers be concerned and write negative comments to your heart's content. You and your children have very reason to be afraid and to feel doubtful about your future.

  • sagacity
    June 28, 2010 12:34 a.m.

    wjalden wants the D-News to treat it's readers with respect. That means 'stick with the Fox News talking points! And don't try to confuse us legals with facts!'

  • Radical Moderate
    June 28, 2010 12:17 a.m.

    Wow, Scooter, after reading this, I cannot believe that there are still this many myopic racists in this country. The DN staff took common "myths," statement I read all the time from posters citing the harm done by illegals and then tried to support/verify them. In most cases, they were proven to be fictious. The "illegal immigration" problem is a bogus issue used to fragment the country and lead us to ruin. Illegals are not ruining this country. Racism, ignorance, and a refusal to view reality as it really is are the things ruining this country. What if we rewrite the laws to allow guest workers, streamline the system, make them legal, have them pay taxes, and just get on with life.

  • Scooter
    June 27, 2010 11:44 p.m.


    After reading this, I am wondering about journalism & where it has gone!

    When you are debunking a 'Myth/Internet Rumor' you should get more than one source, thus trying to eliminate 'Biased Evidence', then you should actually state if it is 'Fact or Fiction', not leave it at 'Well, since they did not collect/ask if they were leagal, we really can't tell.'

    If I use your method of analysis: In my family there are 20 people (10 male, 10 female). 2 of them are drug users, 4 are overweight & 3 have a handicap. So statistically, 10% of the population are drug users, but we can't break it down by gender because we did not ask, but we will say they're male, because I had Chief 'So-N-So' tell me that males commonly are that way & he sould know!

    This article did not prove or disprove any myth, it just added more 'Grey Area' to the cloud!

    By the way, check out what the poster in the middle of the picture states: "Que Viva La Raza!!" ... Gee, I wonder what 'Race' they mean? ... The human race?

  • wrz
    June 27, 2010 11:33 p.m.

    @Moderate 1:18 a.m.:

    "Living in this country undocumented is a civil offense, just as driving faster than the speed limit is a civil offense. Neither are criminal offenses."

    True, and the penalty for speeding is a ticket and a fine. The penalty for being in this country without authority is deportation.

    "That is how the law sees it. If you don't like the law, change it, or move to another country."

    We like it just fine. And what else we would like from the federal government is to enforce the law on the books.

  • Nobody_s Fool
    June 27, 2010 11:16 p.m.

    @yomero - even better than my own opinion which you seem to think is so biased, The Dallas Morning News reported that over 12,000 illegal, undocumented & non-US citizens were able to pay in-state tuition in Texas & receive FEDERAL tuition assistance, under the Noriega rule, that is paid for out of my own personal tax dollars, that seems pretty biased when illegals are compensated for breaking the law when someone who plays by the rules isn't allowed the same help.

  • Nobody_s Fool
    June 27, 2010 11:08 p.m.

    @yomero - No it doesn't prove they are US citizens. Just another example of how several families will group together in one home, illegally using the address to enroll their children, thereby illegally obtaining benefits they & their children have no right to claim. It's been all over the local media here in El Paso, so don't accuse me of being biased for speaking the truth regarding the impact illegals have on everyday, law-abiding citizens.

  • one vote
    June 27, 2010 10:15 p.m.

    Reality is foreign to Utah.

  • K
    June 27, 2010 10:12 p.m.

    You can always find a statistic that will prove your point. You can always leave out the ones that are contrary.

  • oldcougar
    June 27, 2010 10:12 p.m.

    I'm sure many of you mean well and may even be religious. I hope you'll listen to your religious leaders and take a step back, take a deep breath...and err on the side of mercy and compassion. The problem, in my opinion, is the INS and our ridiculous immigration laws. I have worked to get a student here legally. Working with the INS was embarrassing to me as a citizen. I was treated like an animal and my student was treat worse. We need to overhaul the laws and the enforcement and make it easy for the law-abiding workers to get here and impossible for those who are criminals (other than coming her illegally) to come, to stay, or to ever return. If any of you hard liners were desperate to feed your families and your only two choices were to pay 10K and wait 10 years (you have neither time nor money) or swim the river. my guess is you'd swim the river...in a NY minute. Let's focus on changing laws...that will help.

  • LDS Liberal
    June 27, 2010 9:26 p.m.

    Great Article Deseret News.

    The sad thing is,
    even with the "FACTS" in full light, there will be those who will continue to believe and accept myths over reality.

    These people are more accurately called, "Racist Bigots".

    Again, Great Article!!!

    Keep up the good work.

  • byronbca
    June 27, 2010 9:06 p.m.

    I wonder how many of these posters that claim this article is propagandistic are regular listeners of conservative talk radio. Guys like Limbaugh, O’reily, Beck and Savage are professional propagandists and they will never report news unfiltered. News from media members that claim an allegiance to a party or a cause will always have a spin on it.

    The Myth on illegals and education dollars was actually confirmed.

    Next these posters are going to try and say that the articles on the oil spill are just left wing environmentalist’s propaganda attacks.

    News that challenges your beliefs is not called propaganda, it’s called responsible journalism.

  • cynic
    June 27, 2010 9:01 p.m.

    LOL. How dare that liberal Deseret News publish facts that dispute my bigoted assumptions!

  • DeepintheHeart
    June 27, 2010 8:58 p.m.

    Interesting article. And it hit just when Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer's claim that most illegal aliens are drug mules was being contested by Sen. John McCain, D-Ariz. Me thinks there's a lot of misinformation out there. This is a first shot at trying to clean up the disinformation. Just because you don't like the conclusions, if you're anti-illegal immigrant with a passion, doesn't change the facts. If these facts are carefully documented, and they appear to be, it should cause thinking people to step back a bit and consider what's going on here.

  • Ridgely
    June 27, 2010 7:53 p.m.

    Another fact that anti-immigration conservatives won't admit is that the vast US/Mexico border is far more secure and better managed today than it ever has been (even in Arizona).

    Is it 100% secure? No, and logistically and realistically it never will be. But for the chorus of conservatives/tea partiers/states rights activists and comment posters who refuse to even consider comprehensive immigration reform until "the wall is built and illegal crossings are zero", you have just moved the immigration goal posts out of the stadium. And what have you gained?

    Nice job D-News. Your article shows the need for pragmatism based in reality, vs. rhetoric based on fear and xenophobia.

  • BigPoet
    June 27, 2010 7:42 p.m.

    It is clear that not enough systems and procedures exist for the collection of accurate data on illegal residents. Political cowardice on this topic is pervasive among the governmental bureaucracy, beginning with our elected officials. They won't stand up to La Raza, etc., and require such actions because they have grown fearful of negative PR (from pro-illegal groups) and attacks the of the complicit media. Even honest efforts to collect and report data accurately are not accurate because the percentage of illegals successfully using fraudulent identification is not known.

  • MissouriJoe
    June 27, 2010 7:38 p.m.

    At least the article and the posts make obvious the real nature of the complaint. The statistics tie immigration status to hispanic ethnicity. And, the majority of the "anti-immigrant" posts directly attack Mexicans or poor verbal English skills. Though, they don't seem to be equally concerned about poor written English skills.

    I think this makes it clear that the Arizona arguement that they're not really going after Hispanics, just "illegals", is disingenuous double-speak.

  • wjalden
    June 27, 2010 7:17 p.m.

    *** "I have to give them credit for one heck of a spin job. Based on this article we should start paying Mexico $50K for each illegal they give us...since they're so beneficial to America." ***

    Indeed. Bottom line is, you don't make a 21st Century, high-tech economy richer by importing millions of largely uneducated and illiterate (often in their own language as well as ours) people from a Third World nation. Those who feel this is the proper way to go about it should relocate themselves to Mexico or El Salvador rather than trying to relocate all of Mexico and El Salvador here.

    We have spent the last 5 decades or more - since Sputnik, at least - obsessing about how far behind we are falling in terms of educating our students; that we don't have enough SKILLED workers. Now we hear that the US doesn't have enough UNSKILLED workers.

    Well, which is it? Too many unskilled, or not enough? How can it be both? Because let's face it - the US is far, far behind most developed countries in terms of the educational attainment of its labor force.

  • life goes on
    June 27, 2010 6:17 p.m.

    Thank you for showing the facts on the issue. I think a lot of people feel threatened by this article because it exposes their bias and racism. Thank you for taking a stand to protect the under represented.

  • kiapolo
    June 27, 2010 6:06 p.m.

    I have to give them credit for one heck of a spin job. Based on this article we should start paying Mexico $50K for each illegal they give us...since they're so beneficial to America.

  • stubifier
    June 27, 2010 5:46 p.m.

    Dear Cats: why do you feel that The Sensible Middle's comment is irrelevant? Do you see American Indians and their plights as irrelevant? Do you understand European-Americans' laws as the only ones worth keeping? Or did the comment's implication that almost all of us are, in fact, illegal aliens make you feel uncomfortable?

    As far as I can tell, The Sensible Middle has it spot on: the main reason for our aggressive reaction to Latino immigrants is selfishness, not some sort of moral outrage about "illegality."

  • procuradorfiscal
    June 27, 2010 5:12 p.m.

    The main thing this article shows is that both the press and the American government are strangely uncurious about the illegal immigration problem and its costs and effects.

    The extrapolations, juxtapositions, and just plain SWAGs engaged in by DN writers, in their attempt to convince us the problem is not bad enough to worry about plainly show that, while the problem is readily visible and easily studied, no investigative agency really wants to knows its actual extent.

    Can you imagine either the government or the news media being similarly uncurious about the cause and effects of the Gulf oil spill? The Red Butte Creek spill? The Bernie Madoff ponzi scheme? Sarah Palin's speaker fees?

    Both your editorial bias and your institutional laziness are clearly apparent in this article.

  • Screwdriver
    June 27, 2010 5:11 p.m.

    Congradulations DN, by commiting journalizm that happens to dispel myths about one subject you are now part of the left wing media, drive by media and the lamestream media.

    The only problem you are going to have with that is having attacked the right wing belief system with facts.

  • kaparowitz
    June 27, 2010 5:00 p.m.

    Even if Illegal immigrants commit crime at about the same rate as citizens as the article suggests what does that mean? Should we ignore the border and not worry too much about who comes across? Maybe there are myths about illegal immigration, but at some point "we the people" need to solve the problem. I would suggest securing our borders more. Let the military handle it if need be. Is it a crazy idea to think about securing the border? How much money do we want to throw at the problem. You can decide, but I would suggest that on grounds of national security we ought to be doing a much better job. Once the border is more secure then we can debate about all the side issues. It is too easy to slip in the country and our enemies can or may have already taken advantage of this.

  • wjalden
    June 27, 2010 4:30 p.m.

    I'm not sure what makes this paper angrier: the people who are opposed to illegal immigration, or the fact that it's been so completely ineffectual in getting its readers to go along.

    This paper runs editorials, columns, letters and barely-concealed press releases masquerding as journalism every week, at least. And yet two years ago Utah voters turned out cheap labor advocate Chris Cannon, and denied his fellow-traveller David Ure a promotion to the state senate. This year we threw out cheap labor advocates Ben Ferry, Steven Mascaro, and Bob Bennett, the latter of which it referred to as an 'act of anger.' Several other cheap labor incumbents, including Lori Fowlke, didn't even bother running for re-election, as they knew they would lose.

    The Deseret News seriously refuses to address the valid objections of Utahns to illegal immigration, and repeatedly fails, in its advocacy for "comprehensive immigration reform," to discuss methods of enforcement that it finds acceptable for dealing with illegal immigration.

    Perhaps if it wants its readers to listen it should treat them with respect, which it increasingly fails to do.

  • wjalden
    June 27, 2010 4:11 p.m.

    Gee, whaddaya know? The Deseret Spews shilling for the open borders industry. What a shock.

    Honestly, do you guys really think your readers really buy the propaganda, paid for, I'm sure, by the real estate/construction ads in the paper and by Mormon bigwigs with a financial stake in cheap labor, like the Marriotts, Holdings, and Ivorys?

    Remember when this paper argued that this country needed illegal immigrants because they were driving the HOUSING BOOM that was driving the economy?

    I sure do.

    How about facts such as these: California, about 27% of it population immigrant, is now dead last in the nation in terms of education, with 1 in 6 members of its adult population lacking even a high school diploma.

    Our nation has done marvelously well under the era of Clinton/Bush/Obama mass uncontrolled immigration: financial collapse, soaring income disparity, soaring state and federal budget deficits, and declining educational attainment.

  • MapleDon
    June 27, 2010 3:54 p.m.

    I find it quite disturbing that among the DMC companies, there is unquestioned support for illegal immigration. Among reporters there is NO dissenting opinion.

    NOT ONE.

    There are only three issues on which no dissention is allowed within DMC: gambling, polygamy, and illegal immigration.

    You can present all the data you want, but the rest of us are aware of the fact that unbridled illegal immigration will not benefit this country, but bring it to its knees.

    These people did not respect our laws when they entered and you don't want certain laws upheld. That attitude leads to anarchy and chaos.

    In your short-sighted, self-serving view you can pontificate that this is compassion. But how is it compassion towards those who have worked to gain entrance legally--usually at great expense, especially those who respect law according to their religious views? How is it compassion when our living expenses and taxes are substantially increased to cover illegals? How is it compassion when our freedom and liberty are tossed out (through lawlessness, increased tax burdens, etc.)?

    Compassion? The correct word is Disdain.

  • azresident
    June 27, 2010 3:54 p.m.

    Hmmm, are we likely to receive more factual information from government studies and those studies done by various focus groups, or are we likely to receive more factual information from real people who really live in the areas which have really been impacted by the illegals?

  • bornidentity
    June 27, 2010 3:50 p.m.

    Any percentage of crimes, sex offenses, overcrowding of public schools, and general lawlessness by any person(s) in a country illegally is too much.

  • So Cal Ute
    June 27, 2010 3:24 p.m.

    "A just-completed study seems to refute that and show how wrong perceptions by whites can be."

    I love how people get away with reverse discrimination all the time. If there's a problem, blame it on "whites". It's not like there are not other ethnic groups who came here "legally" and want to enforce the laws of the land. This is a typical liberal move... blame everything on "white" people and then you will get what you want.

  • shnorpleblat(ywoodiwonturilname)
    June 27, 2010 3:17 p.m.

    I look at my fourth grade class (and my peer teachers') and can verify all claims made by this article to be the truth. I have some Hispanic kids and they represent these averages in who performs excellently, who gets in trouble(as much on average as the white kids) and including the reasons they get in trouble (these are people, not statistics). I have Hispanic kids who do excellently and I have those who struggle and everyone in between in a perfect "norm" curve and they are doing even better than the rest of the class if you consider that they are adapting from second language(s) and low income(teachers' lack of skill is visibly and research-wise the reason that they don't progress as fast.) HAVE YOU READ THE RESEARCH? HAVE YOU RESEARCHED THE RESEARCHER AND THEIR DISCLAIMANT'S ARGUMENTS? I know from reading research that researches research in this way and people in general (you?) don't read research and they usually only read commentary, research or reviews that favor what they think is right already. Do not trust ANY research that holds as it's premise that you cannot consider opposing arguments.

  • Not_Scared
    June 27, 2010 2:56 p.m.

    This is from the baston of liberalism, Texas.

    " The immigration debate has become more heated in 2006. Congressional hearings were held across the U.S. to discuss the impact of undocumented immigrants on the economy and the culture. At the same time, two distinctly different pieces of legislation were voted out of the U.S. House and Senate.

    The Comptroller’s office estimates the absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our Gross State Product of $17.7 billion. Also, the Comptroller’s office estimates that state revenues collected from undocumented immigrants exceed what the state spent on services, with the difference being $424.7 million"

  • Not_Scared
    June 27, 2010 2:54 p.m.

    "Why is anything that goes against conservative talking points labeled 'biased'."

    It's the way Fox News and talk radio programs their victims. It is their tool to lie. Any real facts like the study done by the very conservative state of Texas can be ignored by blowing them off as being biased.

    What's amazing. Who owns this biased source? Would most these same conservatives in Utah say at their local ward they lie to them?

  • beatttj
    June 27, 2010 2:53 p.m.

    Hey D News, I've got a stat for you.

    100% of all illegal aliens are breaking the law!

    Dispute that!

  • Deportation Glitch Lady
    June 27, 2010 2:51 p.m.

    What sweetness of a reporting is this? With so much bunk news on legals-illegals as they are called, it has been hard even for a God fearing person to obtain one answer to a prayer.

    There has just been too much bombardment with all kinds of garbage about the statistics of those who do this and that or the other in Utah.

    This article sends a clear message to fools like me who have been making unsubstantiated statements about illegal legals or vice versa to shut up.

    In the abscense of competing stats, this report should keep many crazy anti-latino/immigrant remarks at bay!

  • Not So Fast
    June 27, 2010 2:47 p.m.

    Who could ever question the data gathered from internet sources such as spam e-mail and "pass-this-on-to-your-loved-ones" chain mail? Everybody know you can absolutely bank on that info. (I hope your sarcasm detectors have gone off!)

    Just wait until everybody gets home from church and watch these comments REALLY kick into gear.

  • Cats
    June 27, 2010 2:45 p.m.

    Dear Sensible Middle: Thank you for a completely irrelevant comment.

  • Not So Fast
    June 27, 2010 2:45 p.m.

    I find it amazing that reporters have given us facts and commentors (only some of course) get horribly emotional about the data and draw all kinds of conclusions about the reporters because facts are different from how they perceive the world.

    This is one of the most conservative newspapers in existence and because readers disagree with the facts researched and presented, they figure something must be wrong with the messenger.

  • ECR
    June 27, 2010 2:44 p.m.

    Thank you so much for this balanced and reasonable article, showing the sources of information used to examine this problem. Certainly the United States has an illegal immigrant problem that needs to be dealt with. But your article illustrates that certain issues have been exaggerated in effort to score political points. Let's all acknowledge that a reasonable solution needs to be established by our national government, working with state governments - especially the border states but also all other states who have illegal immigrants - and that everyone needs to work together in a bipartisan, fair minded approach void of hyperbolic claims and with honest intent of resolving this issue in the fairest, most balanced way possible.

  • my slc
    June 27, 2010 2:40 p.m.

    Good job Des News!

    I was pleased to read the article followed up with documented sources. We need more of this type of journalism these days.

    Certainly this article will upset a large vocal subset of your readership, but that is also good. There is no problem so large or bad that it can't be talked and reasoned about.

    In today’s troubled time, folks are uncertain, financially hurting, or unemployed. It makes sense that they look for a cause to these problems. Undocumented aliens and the government happen to the easy targets. In the past, as someone previously mentioned it was other minorities.

    Utah and the US is rapidly going thru a demographics change. We are no longer the majority Caucasian country we were 50 or 60 years ago. And we won’t ever be again. Folks need to get used to it.

  • open minded
    June 27, 2010 2:36 p.m.

    Nothing like having facts blow away every conservative complaint about illegals. But being conservatives they will still stick to their beliefs and convince themsleves they are right now matter what reality is.

  • CougarKeith
    June 27, 2010 2:34 p.m.

    Arizona, I'm with you!!!

  • dumbo123
    June 27, 2010 2:27 p.m.

    I live in Southern California and would like to share with the people in Utah what Illegal immigration has done to this state. We are overwhelmed with Illegal Immigrants. They are everywhere and their presence has caused a situation which impacts everyone here. Our schools are severely overcrowded and the quality of education has dropped dramatically. Crime committed by Illegals including carjackings, identity theft, hit and run, drug trafficking, murder and assault has increased tremendously. Gang violence is at critical mass and law enforcement is ineffective in dealing with the problem. People who are working in the construction trades and the service sector have seen their wages plummet and businesses who employ U.S. citizens suffer while those who employ Illegals prosper. I hope that Utah doesn't become like California because we are in hopeless economic and social decline. I love Utah with its wonderful parks, schools and excellent infrastructure. Illegal Immigration will rob the tax revenues from the citizens of Utah and drain your ability to maintain the quality lifestyle you have worked so hard to have. Don't listen to open border fanatics. Most of them receive personal gain from illegal immigration. Be careful.

  • Not_Scared
    June 27, 2010 2:27 p.m.

    "We cannot lose sight of that we are talking about human beings that need to be treated with respect," Bush told the group, adding, "Massive deportation of human beings is not going to work."

    As he has before, Bush tried to temper his call for tough enforcement.

    "You can be a nation of law and a compassionate nation at the same time," he said.

  • byronbca
    June 27, 2010 2:21 p.m.

    This is a really great article. I love it when people get mad at reporters for publishing facts that they don’t believe.

    A reporter’s and newspaper’s job is to is to investigate and report, not appease its readers.

    Sorry this article goes against your prejudice beliefs WATCH DOG, but I’m sure there are plenty of ultra conservative forms of media that are more than willing to continue to serve you your cool-aid.

  • tenx
    June 27, 2010 2:14 p.m.

    Here is my statistic. 7 out of 10 times that I am behind a person in line at the grocery store who cannot speak English, they pull out a WIC card to pay for their groceries.

  • Casca
    June 27, 2010 2:12 p.m.

    I personally don't give any credence that our government tells us any more. However--I do believe what I see with my own eyes and what my family, friends and previous co-workers tell me? In my state the schools are overcrowded to the max and should have a Mexican flag flying. My child's schools according to demographics is 82% Hispanic. Went to the emergency room with ex-spouse and the reception area was inundated with screaming children and people--who couldn't speak a word of English? It's a fact that Anchor Baby" children get instant citizenship and parents can get free pre-natal care and a low income housing. Then the whole family moves in--legal or illegal.

  • Hunt
    June 27, 2010 2:02 p.m.

    Very little in the way of myths are dispelled in this article. Time after time the answer given is that we really just don't know or that it really could be argued either way. I see little in the way of substantiated facts from unbiased sources. If anything the article creates more questions than it answers.
    While I appreciate the effort I wonder how much effort was actually made in this article, the constant jumping from nationally based data to local doesn't leave the impression that alot was made. How about more data related to crime, healthcare and identity theft from border states?

    Wow, Christine, I wonder where you stand on illegal immigration? If you were so interested in the truth why disparage the characters of others by making ridiculously false claims about their motives? You really weakened any point you were trying to make.

  • fyre
    June 27, 2010 2:01 p.m.

    Very sneaky way to TRY to prove a point. Delete the negative portions of the extremely biased study and use only the stats that seem to prove your liberal side...which in this case is to use stats that are at least 4 years old and most are 6 - 10 years old.

    Peel the onion and look to see the underlying danger here: Chris Burbank has a very personal and politically dangerous agenda that will reveal his complete contempt for anybody but himself and subsequently be damaging to the citizenship of SLC. Give California a call and see the amount of hospitals that are closed. See the Illegal immigrant crime in Phoenix and L.A....oh wait those stats weren't used in this article and study because they are on the wrong side of the liberal's agenda...and are too damaging.

    Several years ago those cities took the same "no harm done" stance and now they are unable to recover without dramatic shifts and problems and/or they will not recover but destroy the basis of their society.

    Word to the wise...don't trust that weasel Burbank. Ignore the lies of this article and study.

  • WatchDog
    June 27, 2010 1:46 p.m.

    Rarely have I heard or seen a more slanted article, especially one designed to solicit sympathy for illegal aliens.

    Here are just a few "facts" that were not mentioned.

    1) Rep. Margaret Dayton's legislative audit of a few years ago, stating that illegal alien school children likely are costing our state taxpayers as much as $85 per year. No matter how many illegals that amounts to, it still is a huge cost to our taxpayers.

    2) Every ESL child in our schools costs the citizen children in their class, to say nothing about the cost to the taxpayers in this country. We have an obligation to our citizens who have been raised speaking English to give them the best education we possibly can. Taking time away from them to deal with an ESL child is time lost for our own.

    3) No matter one's position on immigration in general, the citizens in this country have an absolute right to say who comes - and who cannot. That is a right that NO ONE has the right to compromise.

    4) Then, it should go without saying that we ALL should be expected to honor our laws. Illegals DO NOT!

  • Galileo
    June 27, 2010 12:57 p.m.

    Why is anything that goes against conservative talking points labeled 'biased'.

  • Christine
    June 27, 2010 12:54 p.m.

    Good article! I'm glad some one is looking for the TRUTH! I can tell a lot of time and effort went into this research to find the facts and the truth.

    It seems that some deceiving Utah politicians (Sandstrom, Herod, Wimmer, etc) can't even do elementary school statistics. They should come out of the closet and acknowledge that they really are nazis and put forth their real motive.

  • Viva la Migra
    June 27, 2010 12:25 p.m.

    It's interesting that the authors use the term "perceptions by whites" in this article. Does this imply that white people are racist when it comes to wanting to laws enforced equally for all?

    Perhaps the authors could point out that the Salt Lake City jail statistics could be skewed because all Hispanics arrested are classified as "white". There is no place to specify ethnicity and there isn't a checkbox to indicate whether or not they are here legally or not. Burbank has been very clear that he isn't going to ask that question anyway.

    With a database like this, how can they tell us with a straight face that illegal aliens/Hispanics don't commit any more crime than legal citizens? You can't run a query if the data isn't there.

  • lizardking
    June 27, 2010 12:24 p.m.

    The Deseret News is one of the most biased news sources I have seen on this issue. Why, I'm not sure? But they would have you think that Utah citizens have no right to complain when illegals are overrunning our borders and bringing their crime with them.

  • The Sensible Middle
    June 27, 2010 12:20 p.m.

    If we kick all illegals off land, then non indians would have to be kicked off land where the American Government broke the treaties.

    Are we ready for that?

    Or does we need to enforce the law only work in the favor of us? It really isn't about keeping the law is it? It is about what ever is in our selfish interest. Lets be honest and state what it really is that we want.

  • sergio
    June 27, 2010 12:17 p.m.

    The problem is just not too many Mexicans coming to the USA, but there are far too few Americans and Canadians moving to Mexico. The USA and Canada needs to negotiate with Mexico more favorable immigration laws for Americans and Canadians to immigrate into Mexico. Mexico is a country with trementous riches and opportunities. It needs to balance its population with modern new immigrants. It will then grow and prosper and most Mexicans and more Americans will prefer to live in Mexico rather than out migrate. Give the Americans the same opportunities to move to Mexico as the Mexicans have to move to the USA.

  • Hunt
    June 27, 2010 12:16 p.m.

    Here is the problem with the whole "illegal immigrants do not have a higher crime rate" myth. If they weren't here illegally any crime rate they present would not have occurred in the first place. It would be interesting to find out the rate of crime committed by illegals toward legal citizens. This rate would only be viable if it included identity theft, which, no matter how you spin it is a criminal offense and is a major problem within the illegal immigrant ranks.

  • mendicant
    June 27, 2010 12:14 p.m.

    I don't want to hear any more "Push 1 to speak English" or the like.

    I don't want to have to guess who is here illegally. I want some reasonable guarantee that my State and the entire nation is doing its job, protecting the borders and fighting crime including illegal immigration. I want to be able to welcome all Hispanics I see with the reasonable assurance that at least the vast majority are here legally, are not taking our jobs, stealing our identities, voting illegally, driving illegally.

    I want this to be a nation, and this to be a state, in which we are all equal before the law, withot special terms for illegal immigrants, such as Driver Privilege cards.

    I want to see illegal employers hit hard by good laws. I want to see laws that prescribe heavy penalties for new or old employees who are illegal immigrants.

    I want to be a customer of the Deseret News but my views seem only to be represented by the readers not the journalists and chosen syndicated columns.

    I want to be able to communicate, in English, to all my neighbors.

  • reenie72
    June 27, 2010 12:08 p.m.

    (continued)when people who are not citizens SNEAK into our country, kill people, destroy homes and land, take jobs that rightfully belong to the citizens of this great county, steal and cheat. It's okay if they come - do it legally. We are tired of paying for people who don't belong here. Hospitals, clinics, etc., are inundated with those who can't pay their way, and those who have a legal right to these privilegs can't get them. If you don't believe it, make a visit, read the paper, etc.

  • reenie72
    June 27, 2010 12:04 p.m.

    I knew when I read the first response to this article that it wasn't reliable. I live in the southeast corner of Arizona. I am originally from Utah. Why don't you folks who wrote the article come to my town and see what it is really like? I, and most of the people I know don't hate Mexicans or any other group of people. But, we don't like it when ANYONEwhat illegal

  • The Great Houdini
    June 27, 2010 11:59 a.m.

    Finally the TRUTH!!!!! stings ,don`t it.....

    June 27, 2010 11:54 a.m.

    Newsworthy well said...however make sure you pose real facts.....not spin as this article appears too!

  • Cats
    June 27, 2010 11:48 a.m.

    I can't believe these people who keep writing in that being in this country illegally is a civil offense and not a criminal offense. That is factually incorrect. IT IS A CRIMINAL OFFENSE.

    If this were only a small problem, I don't think most people would be that concerned. But, when we get to the point that we feel like we are being INVADED and when drug dealing, violence, kidnapping, human trafficking, etc., etc., get this bad, Americans have had it. In addition, it is a terrible drain on our social services.

    Look, I think most of us are somewhat conflicted about this issue. But, it needs to stop. I applaud Arizona for having the courage to fight. I hope Utah will follow suit. We've got to get control of our border.

  • On the other hand
    June 27, 2010 11:38 a.m.

    Shaun McC wrote "for a piece that says it is dispelling myths, most of the information reported is admittedly less than accurate. ('It did not single out those who are illegal immigrants.' was used in some format four times in the first 2 pages.)"

    If it's true that most illegal immigrants are hispanic (that certainly seems to be the only group I hear complaints about), and people assume that illegal immigrants are responsible for a certain percentage of crimes, and it can be shown that hispanics commit crime at a rate much lower than the assumed rate, then the myth of the higher crime rate is successfully debunked. It's true that we'd like more specific details on the percentage of crimes committed by illegals vs. legals, but the presented stats are perfectly sufficient to demonstrate that the assumed rate, as is applies to illegal Hispanic immigrants, is a myth.

  • newsworthy
    June 27, 2010 11:33 a.m.

    ALL of us are entitled to our own opinions, NOT to our own facts and facts are facts. If we still feel strongly against and issue, so be it. But, it is CRUCIAL that facts be known so that educated opinions be formed.

  • Dexter
    June 27, 2010 11:27 a.m.

    The problem with this "article" [which, incidentally, is really an op-ed of the Deseret News editorial staff] it ignores the millions of children of those illegal ALIENS. They are what is killing our local economies.

    Every kid born to an illegal in the U.S. [and they seem to have lots and lots and lots of children] is a citizen. The article points out that illegals do not qualify for food stamps, Medicaid, etc. But their CHILDREN do. But the illegals pay nothing or next to nothing in taxes to offset that expense.

    Add to that, the education system is throttled with non-English speaking children of non-English speaking parents. And guess who gets short-changed? The children of tax-paying citizens. English speaking children take a back seat to all of the "no hablo" kids who have to be hand-fed English in order to even get to the basics.

    If I were one of the "reporters" listed as an author in this piece of pro-illegal trash I would be ashamed to have my name put in print.

  • JKR
    June 27, 2010 11:21 a.m.

    Thanks to the DN writers who took a good look at the problem. Reliable data is difficult to come by due to the nature of the problem -- assessing the numbers and activities of those who don't want to be assessed.

    As anyone can see by the comments above, illegal immigrants are becoming less and less popular. The country clearly needs immigration reform at a national level, perhaps on the European model consisting of "guestworkers" who are in the country for a time working legally. Amnesty -- tried that in 1986 -- is not a good option. Also, times have changed in the 250 years since the US Constitution was written. Children of illegal immigrants should NOT be US citizens.

    Finally, the Deseret News should change the policy of suppressing the immigration status of persons accused or convicted of crimes. This is important information for the public to know. For instance, what was the immigration status of the woman accused of killing her 4 y/o stepson? How about the people accused of shooting the man shot to death last week as he was waiting to go to work? The public deserves to know if these people are illegal immigrants.

  • Furry1993
    June 27, 2010 11:08 a.m.

    To tawillin | 8:08 a.m. June 27, 2010

    ***Illegal Immigration is NOT a criminal offense. Illegal immigration is a civil offense. There are some offenses that are criminal with immigration but crossing the boarder is not one of them. So, it is unfair to compare illegal immigration to a speeding because a speeding actually is a criminal offense.***

    Actually, since it is illegal to be in the United States without proper documentation and approval, illegal immigration is indeed a criminal,not civil, offense.

  • Furry1993
    June 27, 2010 11:06 a.m.

    WOW! The DeseretNews is trying to confuse people with FACTS. Whoda thunkit!

  • azresident
    June 27, 2010 10:52 a.m.

    yomero--we see the same thing, car after car, NOT registered in Az. Yet another violation of the law. Chances are they don't have insurance either.

  • DN Subscriber
    June 27, 2010 10:38 a.m.

    Accepting as a fact that it is hard to find data on the effects of illegals, the Deseret News will surely support Utah passing a law requiring that all government services determine if the recipient is a citizen, legal resident, or illegal alien. (Call the latter "undocumented", or "other" if you cannot bear to use the correct term, "Illegal alien.")

    This should be done for every school registration (K-12 and university level!); every law enforcement action; every court proceeding; every medical visit; every welfare payment; every CHIP enrollment; every vehicle registration, etc.

    If state funds are even remotely involved, we have a right to determine if the people using our services are here legally.

    After we do that, the Deseret News needs to do a new article, based on actual data, and tell the truth, unable to hide behind phony numbers from liberal advocacy groups.

    The U.S. has always welcomed, and benefited from legal immigration, but we are always harmed by illegal immigration.

  • ShaunMcC
    June 27, 2010 10:37 a.m.

    Three quick observations - and I am one that believes we should streamline the process and increase access for non-criminal immigrants to come here legally.

    The editor that reviewed this piece is not doing his/her job. First, in most cases, information that goes against the basic premise that we are over-reacting to illegal immigration is not used in this piece. That is not journalism - it is propaganda.

    Second, for a piece that says it is dispelling myths, most of the information reported is admittedly less than accurate. ("It did not single out those who are illegal immigrants." was used in some format four times in the first 2 pages.)

    Third, some items are dismissive or misleading and should have been caught by the editor. For example, from page 4, it says, "It's unlikely that Hispanic illegal immigrants are crowding most of Utah's public schools, given that about one in seven (14.7 percent) of the children enrolled are Hispanic" How exactly is that not crowding the schools?

    I have usually felt that the Deseret News had high standards of journalism, but I'm beginning to wonder. Present this as news or opinion? Decide.

  • Hellooo
    June 27, 2010 10:30 a.m.

    The basics of any study require first a good model and second good data. You have neither upon which to base any of "findings" of this article. For example, how does the database differentiate between what it designates as crimes by legal and illegal immigrants, or white and "hispanic" Until you really look at how this data is being categorized, you are just dealing with nonsense. And, that is what the database is. Article writers ask yourselves, how many Peruvians committed crimes in the USA and how many were illegal entrants to the country. Now find that in the database. You can not because it blends all "hispanics" into one group and fails to delinate between illegal and legals. Further give that legal immigrants by their extreme sacrifice to enter the country by fulfilling all of it laws become some of the most law abiding citizens their inclusion "hispanics", reduces the average crime rate of the group because in the case of the "hispanic" group they represent a sizable component of the population. I appreciate your effort find objective data in the case of this article and its basis you just have not done so!

  • shamrock
    June 27, 2010 10:29 a.m.

    Terrific article! I hope we'll see more like this. Without responsibly-reported facts, the political discussion tends to devolve into fevered name-calling on both sides.

    For those of you who saw the article as solely pro-immigation, you need to read more carefully. There was food for thought on both sides.

  • yomero
    June 27, 2010 10:13 a.m.

    @ nobody_s fool......if you see car after with chihuhha .licence plates ,drop kids off at school ,it means they are U.S. citizens ,or explain how they cross the border everyday .so the only biased here is you.

  • Stalwart Sentinel
    June 27, 2010 9:50 a.m.

    This is hilarious. It's as though I am watching the conservatives world falling apart. Keep up the great posts!

  • La Tortuga
    June 27, 2010 9:41 a.m.

    You guys are really too much! Accusing the Deseret News of pushing a liberal agenda? Really?

    I for one applaud the DNews for doing their best to put together some fact based analysis, rather than a bunch of baseless talking points, on a subject where very few figures are publicly available.

  • Eric Samuelsen
    June 27, 2010 9:27 a.m.

    What a superb article. You have done a great service to our state and our country with this immensely valuable tribute to first rate journalism.

  • Ultra Bob
    June 27, 2010 9:23 a.m.

    Kudos for the Deseret News for their effort in trying to make sense of the propaganda about illegal immigration and it’s problems. Unfortunately many of us feel that you failed. The things we see and hear about in our everyday world overwhelmingly tell us that the influx of foreign people is dominating jobs previously held by Americans.

    American families are hurting, when they can’t find jobs and see so many Latinos working everywhere, it is hard not to make the conclusion that the problems are cause by the new arrivals. All the statistics about supposed real truth just can’t match personal observation.

    The propaganda that illegal immigration is a liberal thing, is a lie. Although liberals like myself will cheer the advent of new Americans regardless how they get here, the real imputes is the business quest for low wages. And because business is mainly conservatives, it is the conservatives who want to impede the solution to illegal immigration.

    The fix for problems is in the fixing of our economic system to provide for the circulation (redistribution) of wealth throughout our society. Only then will we survive as the American dream.

  • Ebom
    June 27, 2010 9:15 a.m.

    The problem with this story is it says all illegals are from Mexico. That just isn't the case. There are many illegals who have overstayed their visas from other countries. That would make them ILLEGAL. Whether you cross over the border without a visa, or you stay in the country while your visa is expired, it is illegal. That means it violates a law, and in America is a crime. Therefore, 100% of all ILLEGAL immigrants are criminals according to American law. There's a fact no one wants to talk about.

  • sally
    June 27, 2010 9:12 a.m.

    This article reminds me that we have a group of people in our society who are more like ghosts rather than human. We can't even identify who they are or give accurate statistics regarding employment and other activities they are involved in. They could easily be sleeper cells involved in future terrorism. The illegals have more freedom than we do because no one is tracking them or holding them accountable for their actions. Even when they are caught and returned to their country, they can easily return and do what they want. The rest of us have to pay the consequences for their behavior, such as stolen identities, crime, etc. Why should I even have to be responsible for these ghosts? America is a land of laws. When are the politicians going to enforce them? One is too many so why bother to do your bogus research? This is my country!

  • K
    June 27, 2010 9:10 a.m.

    Perceptions by whites? What the heck sort of a statement is that?

    If the study of crime doesn't take into account citizenship status, what is the point? Being here illegally is in fact a crime but somehow that doesn't count as a crime in these studies.

  • 5
    June 27, 2010 9:09 a.m.

    jplant -look a bit closer at the so called sources you claim the Dnews quoted. Several times they quote a person and not a study. That indicates an opinion, certainly not any kind of reliable data. A newspaper publisher once said "Freedom of the press belongs to those who own one" This article is confirmation of that statement.

  • Non sequitur
    June 27, 2010 9:07 a.m.

    Let's assume most illegal immigrants pay taxes, have auto insurance, and work hard. I am a citizen; I pay taxes, I have auto insurance and I work hard. Which federal law should I be able to ignore? We are either a nation of laws or we are not. Equal protection means the laws will be applied equally or they will not be. There are millions of hard working people all over the world who want to be here to pursue a better life for their families. The mere fact that it's easier to enter illegally from Mexico than from Darfur should not be an advantage for the pathway to a better life.

  • samhill
    June 27, 2010 9:06 a.m.

    What a disappointment!!

    I read this article with the hope of finding some more authoritative basis for or against the many claims for or against our nations idiotic toleration of illegal immigration.

    What I found instead was a poorly organized collection of very loose statistical data, much of it not even pertaining to ILLEGAL immigration.

    Furthermore, almost all of it was presented with a clearly apologetic tone that suggests a much less than objective stance from the reporters than I expect from no less than FOUR "journalists".

    If this was the best that the Deseret News can come up with (something I assume considering the number of people involved) on such an important and long-festering problem, then I will need to adjust my expectations of the D-News downward by quite a bit.

  • Larry
    June 27, 2010 8:48 a.m.

    No doubt Ken and many more of you should be in Jail and locked up for something.
    You are so igor to lock others up, Let's Lock Up some of these Judges, Prosecutors and District Attorneys that do not do their job properly.
    We have to many People locked up that are innocent.
    We are supposed to have a speedy trial, Many People are in jail for 5 years and never convicted for anything. What ever they had is now lost.
    The Judicial System is corrupt.
    You all want someone else locked up.
    People without a Lawyer will be convicted because they can not afford a Lawyer.
    The Lawyers in Utah are behind the times in The Constitution.

  • johntvalentine
    June 27, 2010 8:44 a.m.

    Lee Davidson, Elaine Jarvik, Louis m. Collins and Chuck Gates. SHAME ON YOU. Evidently you good people show great intelligence but have absolutely no, NONE, zilch, on knowledge of America's GOD, given CONSTITUTION and that GOD in Heaven, meant our beloved America, to be a Nation of laws to be followed by all. Could you elite Journalist tell me. What part of America's law does "ILLEGAL", fit??? Answer-JAIL, PRISON, INCARCERATION, no political correctness here. A word to the wise is sufficient. Remember folks. The glory of GOD, is intelligence. It does not take a rocket scientist to see what is wrong with this article.

  • smity
    June 27, 2010 8:37 a.m.

    I've always thought that the problems associated with illegal immigration were wildly overstated and that yes it is very bigoted to label them as criminals. The fact is that there are only about 5000 work visas for the types of jobs immigrants typically fill, while in the earlier part of the decade the economy was adding hundreds of thousands of them each year. That is why the system is broken. It does not reflect economic reality. Even if you run them all out, I doubt many Utahns would be applying for jobs at the dairy or as sheepherders. Get a grip. Our immigration "problem" is mostly supply and demand. We can't accept them in good times and turn around and criminalize them in bad times.

  • MPS
    June 27, 2010 8:21 a.m.

    What caused the change between the wonderful nostalgia engendered by photographs of immigrants sailing past the Statue of Liberty and the out and out "throw the bums out" mentality of current immigrants? I live in New Mexico. Guess what, we gets a lot of immigrants, some legal some not. Some of these same people worked on our family dairy farm. They were hard workers. I say lets open our borders.

  • johntvalentine
    June 27, 2010 8:17 a.m.

    By the way. What part of "ILLEGAL" DO YOU Journalist , do you not understand?????

  • johntvalentine
    June 27, 2010 8:15 a.m.

    I do believe that all American Journalism, should be made it manditory to MASTER, the wisdom on america's beloved GOD, given CONSTITUTION. .

  • Mike Richards
    June 27, 2010 8:13 a.m.

    Four Deseret News reporters showed their level of competence by collectively writing an article to "prove" their own preconceptions.

    Were those reporters never taught to get to the bottom of an issue before writing a story?

    Were those reporters told to gather only the facts that supported their thesis?

    Did those reporters rely on Chief Burbank for their information?

    The objectivity of the Deseret News is now suspect. Other posters have pointed out how "data" was misused or ommitted.

    Shame on the Deseret News.

  • Nobody_s Fool
    June 27, 2010 8:12 a.m.

    Very biased article. Maybe they should come down here to El Paso & live where I live, pay the taxes I do, watch car after car with a Chihuahua license plate drop their kids off at school & visit a hospital ER & local jail/prison system, before they try to make it sound as if illegals really aren't a problem. What a joke - I expect better from any newspaper!

  • tawillin
    June 27, 2010 8:08 a.m.

    Illegal Immigration is NOT a criminal offense. Illegal immigration is a civil offense. There are some offenses that are criminal with immigration but crossing the boarder is not one of them. So, it is unfair to compare illegal immigration to a speeding because a speeding actually is a criminal offense.

  • azresident
    June 27, 2010 8:07 a.m.

    Legal Beagle--great post

    To parents and employers everywhere--Do you allow your children or employees to pick and choose which rules they will abide by?

    What happens when one of your children or one employee is not held accountable as are the other children or employees?

    Every day at school, as the illegal parents drop off their kids in very nice, new vehicles, we wish we had access to the benefits they are receiving. (thanks for the info on TANF VickieB--that answers a question we have)

    Illegal is illegal, they are costing this country $, who knows how many unreported crimes there are (illegals don't call the police when they are victimized), and murder in the desert is not uncommon, just unreported.

  • Estoban
    June 27, 2010 8:01 a.m.

    Illegal aliens in Maricopa County, Arizona were 9% of the population in 2008. They accounted for over 18% of ALL actual felony convictions. That is undeniable fact. Also, corridors of public land in Arizona are posted no entry for American citizens because the land is controlled by foreign criminals. These posted warnings are within 30 miles of the Capitol. No myths, just undisputable facts.

  • truthwillprevail
    June 27, 2010 8:00 a.m.

    Best original article from the DesNews I've ever read. Keep it up.

  • Gregory Johnson
    June 27, 2010 7:50 a.m.

    100% of illegal citizens in this country have committed a crime, thus the term illegal.

  • lookbeyond
    June 27, 2010 7:49 a.m.

    America, the land of the free, desired by many because of that freedom and opportunity! Laws have been enacted to protect that freedom and opportunity, that is why we have immigration laws. Anyone can apply for legal immigration to this country....that is the rule of law. Not unlike other countries who likewise seek to protect immigration in their country! If we don't abide by the rule of law then all that America has been, will be reduced to just another country run by corrupt government, to be feared! I support the rule of law in this country and to do less is inviting disaster in this country. Illegals have no rights in this country....they may demand them, but under the rule of law they must first become naturalized citizens then they will have all the protection under the laws of this land as well as enjoy all of the rights and privileges of legal citizens.Uphold the laws of the land and you will protect your freedom and liberties garanteed by the Constitution of this land!

  • Gregory Johnson
    June 27, 2010 7:48 a.m.

    Gee, if you could reduce the violent crime in your city by over 25% by getting rid of the illegals would you do it? Their are a couple of counties in VA that reduced their violent crime by 38% by getting rid of the illegals. One city does not a study make.

  • DocSarvis
    June 27, 2010 7:42 a.m.

    Be prepared for more biased articles like this one, and probably a tv advertising campaign as well, trying to influence the American public to go in favor of amnesty for all illegals. So illegals make up 4% of the prison population, according to the article. So what's the national cost of imprisoning that many illegals. A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon you're talking about some real money.

  • lost in DC
    June 27, 2010 7:33 a.m.

    What a deceptive, misleading, agenda driven waste of space this article is!

    The posted graphics show something clearly as false, then the following paragraphs go on to say at best that we don't really know.

    Examples - the graphics say it's false:
    to claim illegals take away jobs, but it says it "gets murky" and "is debatable" and gives no clear evidence they don't take jobs.

    that Americans spend billions to educate illegal children, then quotes an S&P study saying it cost $11.2 billion. How can it not cost billions and cost $11.2 billion? it says they pay that much in taxes, but says we don't know how much tax they pay!

    that we spend spend billions in medicare on illegals - but the graphic ignores the fact we spend billions on medicaid, which is funded by citizens.

    that illegals crowd and don't pay for emergency rooms, but then says we don't know

    that illegals get foodstamps, when an article in this very paper within the last couple weeks said a family of four with US born kids and illegal parents get MORE in food aid than a similar legal family

  • Spitvalve
    June 27, 2010 7:31 a.m.

    I live n Texas. Utah stats don't apply here. There are a LARGE number of crimes committed by immigrants--and many of them are illegal.

  • Anonymous Infinity
    June 27, 2010 7:20 a.m.

    Who passed the law that the offspring of illegal intruders are automatically citizens of the USA just because they are born on American soil? This is insanity. People who believe just because we used to have guest status for folks to work the agriculture crops and then return to Mexico when the crop season was over, and now these people have citizen status are crazy. This isn't 1900 or the 1800's when mostly Europeans immigrated to this country. This country cannot accomodate the 10's of millions of people who would come here from wherever. It would ruin us with all the socialism we now have.

  • Charliejdog
    June 27, 2010 7:11 a.m.

    For all of you that love illegals remember this you are slapping the faces of all those who have and who are legal immigrants to this country. You say what laws have they broke. They broke the biggest of all they didn't wait to come here legally. They are saying the laws do not refer to us.

  • C. Darwin
    June 27, 2010 7:09 a.m.

    Biased article intended to mislead American citizens into accepting crime and corruption. Not a chance that it is believable much less factual. The real situation is the one we see on the streets every day. No amount of liberal spin will convince the average law-abiding citizen otherwise.

  • GWB
    June 27, 2010 6:51 a.m.

    To "Moderate", hiring an illegal alien to work for you is also a crime.

    The reality is that we don't have an illegal immigration problem, we have an illegal employment problem.

    Do you patronize a McDonalds if there is a hispanic behind the counter with questionable english skills? If so, you are likely contributing to the problem, not being part of the solution.

    Do you bargain on price for work on your home, go with the lowest quote and hire a contractor who has hispanics with limited english skills? If so, you are contributing to the problem.

    If we started seizing all assets of any business that employed an illegal alien, the immigrants would not be around because they would have no jobs.

    In then end though, this article is being attacked because it challenges the brainwashing that has been methodically completed by Limbaugh, Hannity, and the other right wing idealoges.

  • patriotandmore
    June 27, 2010 6:39 a.m.

    BTW: the artwork depicted at the beginning of the article shows the Mexican flag colors covering a large portion of the U. S. A slap in the face to legal citizens.

  • easternobserver
    June 27, 2010 6:38 a.m.

    I teach English to rural immigrants. Our enrollment process doesn't question documentation status, but the vast majority are most likely undocumented. They are kind, hardworking people, not killers, rapists, nor drug kingpins. They are moms and dads wanting to read storybooks to their babies and understand what their older kids are saying in English and help with their homework. They are young fellows who work in the hot sun/pouring rain/freezing cold or eviscerate and cut up chickens all day. Instead of going home to pop open a Corona and plop down in front of the TV, they attend class two nights a week to improve themselves. How many American day laborers would make that choice? In very few cases, if any, are these fellows taking jobs from Americans. If we Americans weren't such lazy, choosy workers, there wouldn't be jobs for immigrants. When a local factory closed, I was involved in a GED and job skills program for laid-off Americans. Their attitudes were horrible, their effort practically nonexistent, and attendance sporadic. I can't tell you how often I heard, "Ain't no way I'm workin' outside or in no chicken plant."

  • El caballero
    June 27, 2010 6:34 a.m.

    Why the agenda-based article? It discredits much of the "information".

  • patriotandmore
    June 27, 2010 6:33 a.m.

    More "Fiction" than "Fact."

  • Say What?
    June 27, 2010 6:24 a.m.

    Interesting article. Shows there is a lot of "" that passes for reality when it really isn't.

    I am one that relishes in truth. Cut whatever direction it may.

  • BYU Alum
    June 27, 2010 6:16 a.m.

    Agenda driven news article that shows obvious bias, based on biased information from less than neutral information sources. Sad.

  • RRB
    June 27, 2010 5:54 a.m.

    If you take a ride to the border, you'll find plenty of signs that tell you the law. 19 usc 1459, it carries a civil fine and criminal penalty.

    Also in order to work in the US you have to commit a felony. Even with a tax ID number. The tax ID number does not give you lawful presence in the US, or authorize you to work. It's a loophole that's being exploited and needs to be fixed. Most of the people that use them are out of the country businessmen that must report and pay taxes in the US.

    I like the graphics. Without us knowing the true number of people here, how can we determine percentage? They are not fact, they are fiction.

  • The Sensible Middle
    June 27, 2010 5:43 a.m.

    Please don't confuse me with the facts, I've made my mind up. Tea Party Patriot

  • My2Cents
    June 27, 2010 5:37 a.m.

    What this DN staff found is the exact roadblock on statistics that everyone faces. There are none.

    Statistics they found were held by the illegal aliens themselves and by lumping american hispanics as illegal alien statistics.

    So how many billions of dollars are lost by income tax fraud, by employers and employees.

    There are no statistics on illegals, crimes included. Police forget to mention illegal status of criminals in their reports. Statistics on crime only exist if prosecuted as illegal and deport.

    This report is clearly written to disuade the american people in to thinking that illegals are not an economic problem in Utah.

    I would like to see this staff poll the hispanics personally if they want some real facts. There is a 100% crime rate if you include breaching our borders illegally.

    And if they poll the legal american hispanics they would find them just as disgusted as the rest of the american people and faced with discrimination because of the illegal foreign nationals.

    Now justify $36,000 a year in food stamps for any family. That's 3 times maximum income to qualify to get them.

  • jplant
    June 27, 2010 5:23 a.m.

    Thank You Deseret News, this is a case of honest reporting. Notice: they cited their sources and showed faults in existing beliefs (all studies are biased, we just assume that ones that are with our perspective are not). Most reporting especially that of specific news agencies use anecdotal evidence or quickly give a source without its credibility. The purpose of this article was not to question the legality of illegal immigration, but rather to show that americans have been using illegal immigration as a scapegoat for their problems.

  • RRB
    June 27, 2010 5:05 a.m.

    Instead of dispelling myths, it seems you have added to the disinformation by selective "cherry picking" your sources. I think this is a subject that people need to check out information on their own. Quoting a study done by an Organization that Chief Burbank is part of clouds the issue.

    Mexico controls there immigration by relying on their officers on the front line. The local police. The fear of discovery is the most effective deterrent and cannot be ignored.

    Why did you use the map graphic of Aztlan and not mention the connection with illegal immigration?

  • Screwdriver
    June 27, 2010 4:52 a.m.

    re : "geez ... If you guys are so in love with hispanics and Mexico, why don't you move there and sing kum bi ah for the rest of your lives. "

    ST, The better question is if you are so in love with no or low taxes, no public schools, no governmet services, no labor rights or unions and privatization of EVERYTHING, why don't conservatives move to Mexico? It's allready what you want.

    Good job DN. Some really good journalizm. Much better than just posting biased articles from extremists and pundants.

  • fed up
    June 27, 2010 3:39 a.m.

    Figures don't lie but frequently liars figure. Shame on you Deseret News for such a biased article. Isn't it wonderful to quote only the sources you choose to support your opinions and call it fact. At least pick a realistic opposition to print an article debunking your "myths"

  • Ferryboat Bill
    June 27, 2010 3:20 a.m.

    In reference to the educational funding portion of the article:

    The amount estimated for education is listed and the comment is made that taxes collected "far exceed" this amount.

    What about other services used by illegal immigrants that are provided by tax money?

    An unbiased article would have listed how much is actually collected.

    A more accurate assessment would compare amount spent on education and amount collected in taxes for illegal vs legal populations.

    As has been stated so eloquently in the past: There are lies, (darn) lies, and statistics.

  • Ferryboat Bill
    June 27, 2010 3:20 a.m.

    In reference to the educational funding portion of the article:

    The amount estimated for education is listed and the comment is made that taxes collected "far exceed" this amount.

    What about other services used by illegal immigrants that are provided by tax money?

    An unbiased article would have listed how much is actually collected.

    A more accurate assessment would compare amount spent on education and amount collected in taxes for illegal vs legal populations.

    As has been stated so eloquently in the past: There are lies, (darn) lies, and statistics.

  • anti-liar
    June 27, 2010 2:49 a.m.

    An obviously biased article.

  • VickieB
    June 27, 2010 2:48 a.m.

    @Not So Fast
    There are no hard facts on illegal immigration. This article does very little to dispel facts or fiction, since it mostly quotes opinions (quoting a sanctuary organization's statistics on crime is very biased) and studies done, that do not differentiate legal immigrants from the people here illegally.

  • srl
    June 27, 2010 2:26 a.m.

    Now if we really want to get to facts, let us realize that these people are "illegal" cause we politically made a law not too long ago... within the last 100 years to change the way we allowed immigrants in. We monkey around with these laws all the time... But these myths for the last twenty years have been the impetus that has blocked any changes that could have brought about a lessening of the very same, by allowing more legal immigration and ways for those to "fix" or become legal. Sad day when these myths and people who cherish them rather state to those debunking them that they love law breakers ..... thank you Deseret News to try to set the story straight for those who hear talkshow radio hosts as factual journalists.

  • srl
    June 27, 2010 2:10 a.m.

    What part crime has someone who was brought here as a babe in arms (age 2) and was brought up only knowing the United States as home? Unlike speeding, this person didn't even have the criminal intent to commit the crime, so stop on the insanity of what part of illegal don't you understand. Some people obviously don't understand past the retoric and don't understand that while their organizations report more crime, yet the border has never been more closed as it has more border patrol, more fence line, and less immigrants entering the United States. Yet we have the Governor of Arizona.... believing "most" crossers are drug mules. She is just as confused as the rest of those who are making ignornant comments to this article.... those who choose not to see the facts as they are but those who retoric and mob behavior rule the day. Too bad that most of the scientific innovations have been from immigrants... but hey.... we don't need that... we don't want any immigrants... we like our ignorance. Let us shrink in mind and culture.

  • Not So Fast
    June 27, 2010 1:52 a.m.

    I think many posters are saying, "Your facts don't fit my world view, therefore your facts must be wrong!" Not a good way to learn much.

  • VickieB
    June 27, 2010 1:42 a.m.

    As someone who has Hispanic relatives, I think the numbers are incorrect. The growth of community is much larger than reported, although many have left in the past year. It's easier to find jobs in Mexico than the US. Their unemployment numbers are much lower than the US. If they make up 3-4% of our workforce, that's jobs America needs. I know many legal relatives that work in those fields. With over 1 million legal people coming here legally each year, plus people on guest worker programs, it's not needed.

    I hope the government comes up with some hard facts. Something that both sides can verify. Until then, people will quote the Chief Burbanks and Steve King, and we will make our own decisions based on the news and what goes on around us.

    I think if you do some digging you'll find that a loophole in TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families program) allows a parent of children born in this country to apply in their "birthright" child's name and receive assistance for the entire family (or all children, legal resident or not).

  • CPA Howard
    June 27, 2010 1:35 a.m.

    Illegal is illegal, you can try to spin it, polish it; but at the end of the day its the same. For those of you who believe states should not enforce federal laws I would ask you to thoughtfully consider this question. If a local law enforcement officers stops a car and through observation and questioning determines the individuals in the car have counterfeit money and the equipment to make counterfeit money, should they stop the individual and call the federal authorities so they can arrest the counterfeiters?

    If we apply the argument put forth by those who oppose AZ law that enforces federal law, we should let the counterfeiters go because its a federal matter and the secret services job to investigate counterfeiting.

    If you believe the argument put forth by those who support the AZ law, you would answer, of course they should. If any law enforcement officer notes a crime is being committed, it is his duty to make the initial arrest and turn the suspect over to the federal agents.

    We all live in this country and we all need to support the laws.

  • cerana
    June 27, 2010 1:20 a.m.

    Here is the statistics for our Early Head Start program where I work. ( I am not gonna say which state, I might get in trouble) 55% Hispanics, 33% Blacks, 12% Others which means white, asian,etc other than Blacks and Hispanics. EHS is a program for low income family. Well, read between the lines.

  • Moderate
    June 27, 2010 1:18 a.m.

    RE: Ken

    Not a fact. Living in this country undocumented is a civil offense, just as driving faster than the speed limit is a civil offense.

    Neither are criminal offenses.

    That is how the law sees it. If you don't like the law, change it, or move to another country.

  • RaininTime
    June 27, 2010 1:03 a.m.

    The issue isn't all the myths floating around---most of which no one really believes anyway. The myths and the above statistical support are classical red herrings.
    The issue is the "illegal" part of immigration.
    Let's say I do something illegal such as speed or smoke pot or steal or cheat on my taxes or assault someone or drink and drive or......fill in the blank.
    Then the police and other members of society start to say that since statistics show that only 5% of the population are doing these things, therefore there are myths regarding the facts, hence the implication is that it isn't as bad as is being suggested by a myth-frenzied society.
    Who among us, who among any culture or society, is going to buy into that type of logic?
    Laws are placed in a society to keep order AND to keep anarchy from ruling the day. The current state of the illegal immigration issue is in complete and utter disarray and our Police and government haven't a clue as to how to solve the problem, so it becomes a race issue, instead of an "illegal" practice issue.

  • Rick for Truth
    June 27, 2010 12:55 a.m.

    Thank you for all of the comments, even the D-News cannot hide behind the liberal lies and twisting of the truth anymore. I doubt that the comment screener will let this one bye.

  • Ken
    June 27, 2010 12:44 a.m.

    ONE illegal immigrant is TOO MANY

  • RichardB
    June 27, 2010 12:37 a.m.

    Using Burbanks organization discredits this, in my opinion. You should check out his organization and it's open borders policy.

    Illegal immigration statistics have been hidden from the public for years. It's time for intellectual honesty in the immigration enforcement debate.

    In 2008 PEW estimates put the US at 12-30 million people here illegally. Utah's numbers were around 250,000. The numbers were revised in 2009 after the recession to 11 million, with 1 million returning home. Since most studies use PEW's numbers, it's hard to get a grasp on the true figures. One thing is for sure, normal population growth and legal immigration cannot account for the huge increase in Latino growth country wide. Many cities have went from 3% of population to 12-14% in only 10 years. During those 10 years (1998-2008)legal Latino immigration accounted for 3.6 million people. The legal immigration numbers is a hard fact obtainable from the US government.

    They arrested 17 people for the Pinal sheriff shooting, 14 are on immigration hold. (here illegally awaiting deportation after the investigation)

  • Ken
    June 27, 2010 12:37 a.m.

    FACT: illegal immigrants are criminals, and lame is the comparison to speeding or something like that

    Criminals belong in jail

  • DanO
    June 27, 2010 12:32 a.m.

    Wow! A conservative newspaper confusing the issue with facts. It's pretty unheard of these days. And of course, some people still won't believe them. In rough economic times, people need someone to blame and it's historically always been the immigrants. The Irish, Japanese, Chinese, Polish.. they've all been there. America is not so much a melting pot as it is a vinaigrette. We just can't seem to emulsify.

  • Informed Voter
    June 27, 2010 12:22 a.m.

    Did your study also establish the ILLEGAL is NOT illegal? The real myths are that the federal government enforces the law and that they are working to secure the border. There can be no doubt that illegals are hurting America and our laws are being mocked by illegals, POLICE CHIEFS, and of course politicians. One more: anyone who wants illegal aliens curbed is a racist.

  • JFFR
    June 27, 2010 12:13 a.m.

    It was a good attempt and I appreciate it... but you shouldn't make the claim that you are debunking myths.

    I was hopeful this article would have cold hard facts, but I was naive. Everything is biased and there are flaws in your data.

    Thanks for the attempt though, well thought out.

  • SLars
    June 26, 2010 11:43 p.m.

    You really pick and choose what you report, and your sources. Consortium for Police Leadership in Equity is PERF. Organized to fight any immigration enforcement.

    There are no government agency in the U.S., FBI, Immigration and Customs Enforcement that tracks crime by people here illegally, so any study will be biased according to the point they are trying to prove. We watch the news at night and read the papers. Sometimes we have to read between the lines, as the reporters do not bring up citizenship in many cases, and booking agents do not have to check immigration status in Utah. (Changes on July 1)

    Know one knows who killed the rancher on the border, but his daily dealing with people in the country illegally is suspect. The country deputy was shot by people here illegally and was apprehended by helicopters called in. Please check the follow up story.

    ITIN's are used by citizens of foreign countries that own property or have a business in the US. Most are not living here.

    It's hard to write an article using biased sources, since the facts are hidden by the Government.

  • verily_verily
    June 26, 2010 11:12 p.m.

    Hats off, great article.

  • mmbear
    June 26, 2010 11:04 p.m.

    The 5% of illegals employed would reduce the unemployment numbers if actual citizens could have those jobs. It would have been professional if these 4 reporters would have actually had an anti-illegal immigration point. I did not see one in this whole article. Where have all the unbiased reporters gone?

  • SLars
    June 26, 2010 11:02 p.m.

    The "Consortium for Police Leadership in Equity" is the organization that Chief Burbank belongs to. It is the organization started by the police chiefs of the sanctuary cities that refuse to enforce immigration laws. A very liberal pro-illegal immigration group.

    I had hoped this would be unbiased.

  • SLars
    June 26, 2010 10:58 p.m.

    The "Consortium for Police Leadership in Equity" is the organization that Chief Burbank belongs to. It is the organization started by the police chiefs of the sanctuary cities that refuse to enforce immigration laws. A very liberal pro-illegal immigration group.

    I had hoped this would be unbiased.

  • Legal Beagle
    June 26, 2010 10:55 p.m.

    I fefute the premise of your entire article. Real damage is done to our country and our society when laws are not enforced; damage is also done to the illegal immigrant who is forced to live in the shadows of society. The greatness of our country is firmly rooted in the rule of law. The failure of the Federal Government to enforce the immigration laws undermines the Rule of Law. Further, wanting immigrants to come through the front door is not racism...is honesty!! Obviously, your article is an attempt to whitewash the dishonesty of illegal immigration....whether or not the alleged "myths" are true or not.

  • Greenmountain
    June 26, 2010 10:55 p.m.

    10,000,000 or more illegal immigrants are proof that the Government of the United States of America has not met its responsibility in securing the borders. I am sure that many myths are out there being repeated endlessly. But it is a fact that for many years the Federal government has not done a proper job on the border and enforcing Federal laws.

  • mmbear
    June 26, 2010 10:55 p.m.

    The prison numbers are not accurate because they are deported. Chief Burbank knows this which is why he used the prison figures instead of actual crimes. The "myths" are based on what people see on the evening news.

  • WWJD
    June 26, 2010 10:53 p.m.

    Finally! An honest look at the issue. I'm so tired of all the misinformation, made up stats, and fear mongering. THANK YOU Deseret News!

  • DN Subscriber
    June 26, 2010 10:53 p.m.

    The source for this "study" on the crime aspect is a left wing outfit called the "Consortium for Police Leadership in Equity" which is a front for liberal advocacy groups. The CPLE website brags:

    "Drs. Phillip Atiba Goff & Tracie Keesee, Executive Directors of the Consortium for Police Leadership in Equity, in conjunction with Chief Chris Burbank of the Salt Lake City Police Department recently wrote an op-ed that was published by the Huffington Post..."

    Hardly a respected academic analysis of facts presented in a mainstream forum. Clearly they are a bunch likely to cherry pick facts they like and ignore those they don't.

    Burbank is blatantly biased about illegals and will not enforce the laws already on the books. That tells us a lot about his objectivity!

    I would expect a piece like this from the Tribune, but expected better from the Deseret News.

  • ST
    June 26, 2010 10:37 p.m.

    geez ... If you guys are so in love with hispanics and Mexico, why don't you move there and sing kum bi ah for the rest of your lives.

    What part of "ILLEGAL immigrant" do you "reporters" not understand?

    If you don't like the law then try to change it. But don't sit there and play spin doctor all day to try and influence the general public toward your illegal slant.