You ask a lot of questions, which I really don't care to answer, because they
don't get at the heart of the matter, which is ...Too many
elementary math ed teachers do a poor job of teaching math.And
...I believe if standards were raised, we then wouldn't have enough
teachers,ButIf standards were raised along with pay for
those teachers who met the higher standards, we could then attract enough
@ 7:02,Are you saying that some teachers are NOT qualified to teach?
Are you saying that there are teachers in the classroom who should NOT be
there?Have they been certified by the State? Have they passed all
courses required? Have they proved themselves through 'student teaching' that
they can handle the job?Yet, you say they are NOT qualified.That may very well be the case. If it is, where is the problem? Low
salaries, or low qualification standards for teachers?Just how many
teachers have left Utah to teach in other states?
re Mike Richards | 11:24 a.m. Feb. 9, 2010 Did it occur to you that
in math education at least we do find teachers who are willing, for the pay
offered, but not enough of the quality we need?If more pay were
offered to elementary ed teachers, we could then raise standards of math
competency and still attract enough teachers to fill the ranks.Conservative logic goes so far and only so far, sometimes you have to look
below the surface. Life is more complex than your just the conservative
philosophy.The Soviet Union fell because they refused to look beyond
socialism/communism.We would fall too if we adhered to just
conservatism (or even just liberalism). We need to do as Paul admonished and
prove ALL things, hold fast to that which is true (that which works).
@ 12:53,What is a 'fair' salary? It is a salary that YOU are
willing to accept? Is it a salary where the number of applicants exceed the
number of openings? Is it a salary that is acceptable because those earning it
hang on to their jobs year after year after year?Utah pays teachers
a fair salary. When Utah cannot find teachers who are willing to teach for the
salary offered, then Utah needs to revisit the amount that it is willing to pay;
otherwise, the onus is on the teacher to find another job that pays that he
thinks he's worth, if he thinks he is being underpaid.
Mr. Florez completely slammed Buttars without evening mentioning his name. Well
It's always good to see how the conservatives politicize eduction. They always
like to blame rather than search for ways to make the system better.Why do young graduates leave Utah? Perhaps for better jobs which Utah cannot
or will not sustain. You attract young professionals who, in addition to a good
job, want good schools. The only thing Utah has to recommend itself is the
religious culture which may hold some but for others it is not enough.And if they go to school outside of the state, many choose not to return under
any circumstance because of the myriad problems found in such a reactionary
Unfortunately, public education has been under the bus for years. We continue
to be drug along pleading for money year after year from those on the hill.
Re: @ 12:53 P.M.School districts should be frugal with spending.Example: Have you ever been in a college classroom and a video teaches the
classroom, not the teacher.Teachers are getting paid for doing nothing!Teachers should be fired.This is why colleges and universities should be
free for everyone.Example: No child left behind.Example: No ADULT
Why do so few state legislatures adequately fund education? Teacher salaries
are scandalously low. Extra fees are scandalously high. School
districts should be frugal with their spending, especially when it comes to new
buildings, but the state needs to man-up and put money where it would do the
most good -- teacher salaries, which is the biggest part of education budgets.
Perhaps some who choose other careers because of money would be enticed into
@ 11:53,When did Utah stop exporting educated, highly skilled
workers? Since I was in college, Utah has been in the college graduate export
business. Industry does not leave Utah because of a dearth of educated
workers.@ 11:50,How do you propose to make education more
efficient? More core classes and fewer electives? Fewer clubs and fewer
extracurricular activities? Longer hours? Only allowing 'bright' students to
take certain classes so that the entire class learns faster? As
someone who has worked in the process-control area for more than thirty years,
I've always looked for ways to make people and machinery more efficient, but,
there is a limit. People can only assimilate new ideas at a certain rate. New
processes have to be learned. If 'teaching' goes faster than 'learning' the
I have yet to see the education system eliminate any waste from their
bureaucracy. Perhaps the citizens would be more amiable if the reductions
weren't always in the classrooms but were taken out of a bloated system too.Finally, since the educational system has never proposed to look at
other educational ideas except their own, I have no sympathy to their cause. Just bluster and foam about how it is hurting the children and deny
there is anything wrong with the present system is destroying their credibility
and harming their cause.
College should be free.All education should be free.Then everyone
would have a better chance.
If Utah cannot produce the highly educated workforce necessary to compete for
industry in the state, then don't complain when that industry leaves for
somewhere else. Then the state can maybe retreat to the economic and social
backwater status that the people really want.
Make education more efficient. Start college bound kids in college courses which
will lower class sizes in high school. I don't think it is what Buttars had in
mind, but it could effectively do away with senior years for some students.
Your comment goes right to the heart of the issue. We have in Utah a very fine
cadre of teachers, many of whom I know personally and are doing their level
best. But too many families utterly fail to support them. Any student can
succeed beautifully with strong family support! It is truly the missing element.
Ejicashun? Ejicashun? We don't need no stinkin' ejicashun!
Notice Asians and others with strong family orientated culture succeed in our
public schools, it's always blame the teachers and not the parents. I find it
telling that only in America would being smart and the best be accepted as a
pejorative. Your kids grow up hearing intellectual elitist. The fact is educated
people earn more than those who don't value education. You had your change and
you didn't take the ball and run with it. I bet schools would
improve if the parents of under preforming kids were required to sit in their
classes and watch how they act.
That is the "third-rail" of Utah politics. Not one legislator will touch that
with a ten-foot pole, even though you are absolutely correct!
Discontinue the practice of paying 6 figure incomes to state employees.
Teachers deserve higher incomes, "professional bureaucrats" deserve less!!
For starters, recognize where the demand for massive education funding is coming
from - huge families who receive tax exemptions for their kids. Let's start
What's your solution to the budget crisis? Education is by far (very far) the
single biggest budget item. How do you fix the $890 MM hole?
From those I have met who went to public school in Utah I doubt it would make a
I've never considered Mr. Florez a sharp tool. So I take what he says with a
very small grain of salt. I think most adults recognize that in good
times or bad, the UEA will demand more tax dollars every year--and the Deseret
News will always sound their support.But more dollars thrown into
the system doesn't correlate with smarter kids.So, you and your
comrades ought to come up with possible solutions to this problem, rather than
your old standby of higher taxes.
It seems that in our state that ignorance is not only bliss, it's public policy.
Mr. Florez has pointed out some serious problems, but what does he suggest as
solutions? Anyone can tell us to leave their favorite program
alone, but when the pie is 50% smaller, someone is going to go without unless
everyone receives 50% less.How about some concrete suggestions about
solving the problem? How about tossing around some ideas to see what others
think, just like members of the legislature are doing? How about putting your
job on the line, just as some of the legislators are doing, as they look for
ways to solve a problem that will have to be solves - soon.
Throwing money at education has never improved it, never has and never will.
They add layers and layers of admin with little going to actually teaching.
Plus most teachers are just bad at teaching, spend some time in a junior high
school actually watching teachers teach. Demand some accountability from
education for the $ spent.
I would expect the legislature to lower the pay of themselves before they cut
education. Yes times may come to be so bad that cuts in education are necessary,
but before that happens cut themselves first, or raise taxes first, on those who
can most afford it.On a slightly different note. There is a charter
school in Utah that specializes in using only public domain text books. I am
writing one, in coordinate geometry, which I plan to donate the use of to the
State of Utah.The reason I am doing this is because I was not
satisfied with the quality of the text the school is using. So I began to write
lessons for my own kid. These lessons over time became this book.Many text books in use are not that high of quality, given this and the huge
amounts of money Utah could save by following the lead of this charter school,
we ought to seriously consider using more texts and resources that are free.Knowlegeable Utahn's ought to consider writing books Utah can use. This
would save Utah millions of dollars each year, and have great potential to
improve the quality of books.
Why not? They only grow up to be liberals anyway. Too much education is
detrimental to our values and way of life. You teach them science to question
the world around them. You teach them math for the analytical and logic skills
You teach them reading and writing and they read books and get strange ideasThe best thing to do is just teach them the true religion so that they
will think right. Keep them focused on who their people are and trust in God
for everything else.