Utah Legislature: Buttars proposes cutting 12th grade, high school busing

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  • Anonymous
    March 16, 2010 7:11 a.m.

    Vote him out.......

  • Mikaela
    March 12, 2010 9:55 a.m.

    This is horrible idea. I'm still in High School and I believe that 12th grade is a very important thing. Yes, some kids do graduate early (11th) grade but it hard to do and 12th grade gives it some ground.

  • Shawna
    Feb. 18, 2010 11:55 a.m.

    As an educator myself, and the mother of seven children, I think Chris Buttars idea is right on the money! Most of Europe and Canada graduate their students at about 16 years of age... these place do not tend to suffer the adolescent anxieties that their American counterparts do. Many studies show that our counterparts surpass us by the 8th grade and it is only in university that American students far outpace their European counterparts.

    Let's get real: education is highly irrelevant to many students lives, we all learn most of what we use early on, that most serious learning takes place in college/university when students can zoom in on what it is they wish to study and will use. And the fact is, we used to graduate our students much earlier than 18 at one time in our history. Are our young people better off now than they were back then.

    I hope Chris Buttars sticks with his guns and helps to reshape American education. It is sorely needed.

  • Kanoe Namahoe
    Feb. 18, 2010 11:49 a.m.

    How does this affect admissions to college? Will students need to take more classes freshman-junior years in order to make sure they're fulfilling requirements for 4-year universities?

  • Rachel H.
    Feb. 16, 2010 7:49 p.m.

    I'm in 11th grade, and though some of us are mature enough to let loose on the world, many of us.... aren't.

    Anyone who has seen the difference between a student at the beginning of their senior year and the end of their senior year knows that a lot of growing and self-discovery goes on. The "nothing but playing around" is pretty essential for some kids. The ones who don't need it either work their tails off their senior year or graduate early.

    Stupid man.

  • Andrea
    Feb. 16, 2010 8:40 a.m.

    If a student can test at a completed 12th grade level and has the ammount of credits neccassary to qualify for graduation at the end of his/her 11th grade year and has been excepted into college or trade school then I can agree that they should be able to graduate.
    It must be based on an individual's performance.
    High School students typically aren't getting above average scores and the last thing our country needs are more young people that don't have jobs, with too much time on their hands to get in trouble.
    Many of these students are only 16 or 17, they can't join the military and most won't be able to find a full time job, therefore they will have a year or more of getting side tracked or doing nothing productive for themselves.
    There maybe a percentage that can qualify and are very focused on their future and should be given an oppurtunity to advance.
    But to mandate this to save money is ignorant and once again politically motivated.
    We should have a seperation between Government and education.
    Keep your claws off the kids.

  • wayne
    Feb. 15, 2010 4:44 p.m.

    The 12 year duration of public school has nothing to do with how long it takes to educate children. Some of you seem to be under that errant impression. If the real agenda of public school were to create a well educated, literate populace then the results would reflect that. Alas the results are dismal. You could compress everything that IS successfully taught in public into less than 2 years. That 10 wasted years of life that most us will never get back.

  • Larwilsmith
    Feb. 15, 2010 12:43 p.m.

    Perfect Idea !

    Myself and most my friends I attended High School with had most of your credits by our senior year! 12th grade to us was just a party on tax payer $.

  • Old Guy
    Feb. 15, 2010 12:41 p.m.

    This idea could work if it was started earlier on in the educational process. Also it would depend upon where the considered demographic places and the bell curve. Some groups of kids could pick up pace over a 4-6 year period to make up for 12th grade. Other groups couldn't complete the same curriculum if there were 20 grades. It would be hard to handle this logistically and Buttars would never be able to get around the teachers unions.

    So, It would be great for smart kids and not so good for the kids who major in shop and gym.

  • cut 12th grade or have lottery?
    Feb. 15, 2010 12:40 p.m.

    Ok here's the vote....

    How many propose eliminating the 12th grade??
    How many propose having a state run lottery like Idaho??

    I VOTE FOR THE LOTTERY!!!!! Heck most of Idaho's lottery sales come from Utah residents anyway !!!

  • Ozgoode
    Feb. 15, 2010 12:31 p.m.

    He's a politician. What do you expect?

  • John
    Feb. 15, 2010 10:42 a.m.

    Yea, since Utah already spends the LEAST per student on education, let's find more ways to deprive our kids of the education they need...... eventually all we'll have is a generation of idiots and zombies - hmm... that explains why Buttars jumped on this wagon.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 12, 2010 9:38 p.m.

    Sure, save money by cutting the 12th grade, and 12% from higher education. If we just keep people dumb, then we could have them WORKING menial jobs SOONER, rather than having them waste 4 years on a fine arts degree, only to give up their dreams and become workers. DUMB KIDS SAVE MONEY and THEY WORK BETTER. Knowledge is power, and we can't give power to the educated. Republicans know that.

  • Concern Parent
    Feb. 12, 2010 10:10 a.m.

    After reading some of these comments it really discourages me as an American to see how our country is moving. How stupid can we be to trust a man that hates all people that are not white and yes he's REPUBLICAN. My kids go to Private school and that is because I don't trust the public school system and it doesn't matter who's our Commander in Chief! We need to stop listening to the media that gives us false information (Hannity, Limbaugh, and Beck) and start being grown ups and AMERICANS and let our voices be heard to all crooked Politicians (Democrats & Republicans)! We should accelerate all our students and stop thinking that everyone deserves an "A".

  • Emily & Jessica
    Feb. 11, 2010 7:01 p.m.

    This whole idea is absolutley ridiculous! What are those kids supposed to do when they're not in school? They won't be ready for college and in this economy, hardly any of them will get employed, and with a year taken off of potential money saving, they won't have nearly as much to pay to get in to college. Some kids can't even drive until 11th grade, and this would only give them a year to get enough to get in. So basically we would have an entire year of kids sitting at home doing a lot more "goofing off" than they would be in high school. Furthermore, this would probably mean fine arts, athletic, and other exctracurricular classes, which are all beneficial to becoming a well-rounded individual, will all be the first to go. Eventually, this means our colleges and universitites will have to either lower their standards and requirements or increase their courses required for graduation, adding more years to the average student's time in school. In the end, this would result in Utah being put at a disadvantage with the rest of the country and the world.

  • HS
    Feb. 9, 2010 12:33 p.m.

    12th grade being out is real stupid! What about the kids going out of state for college? Their Diploma would not be as accepted.

    (See Mr. Butters is right comments)And eliminating an elementary grade and making them pick up the slack in another grade is abuse to the kids who are already struggling. It is also abuse the parents who have to help their kids do homewhork.

    Summer School should be out of the option. It adds to the needs for buses.

    (see dumb idea's comment) Having kids be custodians is not a good idea. If I were to work without pay I would drop out. I am a custodian and kids do not make good cleaners. If they do not typically clean their own bedrooms then why would we trust them to clean the schools. Alot of the kids who work with me goof around, set fires to the chemicals, and play to freely with their issued putty knives or razor blades.

    Also, student custodians tend to be of the wrong crwod. One of five are druggys.

  • anonymous
    Feb. 8, 2010 10:56 p.m.

    I know how to fix this whole thing! Let's just write a law that says that our politicians can only make as much as our teachers and the retirement plans must match as well, and then there would be plenty of money for education. We wouldn't have to make any cuts at all!

  • Horrible Idea
    Feb. 8, 2010 10:23 p.m.

    It is unfortunate that we elect people like this. I understand a lot of people are done early before senior year but this does not apply to every child. For example children with learning disabilities, students looking for sports scholarships, children taking concurrent enrollment through their high school at a community college and students still maturing mentally. Obviously Buttars has not thought of all these factors. And to cut bus transportation for students is just ridiculous. I personally took the bus for 2 out of my 3 years at my High School. It puts less cars on the roads and is actually better for the environment. Please do us a favor Buttars and resign.

  • No more public education!
    Feb. 8, 2010 9:04 p.m.

    I really would like to see us turn education over to the private sector. In doing that we will see the cost decrease and the value increase. Wait... didn't we have a bill passed into law that would allow for that ... vouchers... and didn't it get repealed? Now who's really the idiots? Perhaps those of you who listened to the UEA.

  • Not from here
    Feb. 8, 2010 8:46 p.m.

    I am really surprised (or perhaps not) at how closed minded everyone seems to be on this topic. I was not born and raised in Utah, so I don't honestly know how it's always been. I grew up in the east where it was quite simple to graduate in the 11th grade. Keep in mind that didn't mean that we took fewer courses, it meant that if we chose to graduate early and start college sooner then we needed to double up on English, etc. It meant that we would give up some of the "electives" for meatier courses which meant college one year earlier. Understand that early out isn't for everyone, but if you could make it happen for at least 25% of the students wouldn't we see some savings? I believe it's a good starting point for savings.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 6, 2010 4:00 p.m.

    Many past studies have shown that students can learn in fewer years what it now takes for them to learn in 12. BUT that depends entirely on the existing system being revamped and streamlined. Buttars may have a point but I wouldn't want it implemented in the poor system now existing.

  • Mapleton Resident
    Feb. 6, 2010 10:04 a.m.

    Representative Gibson just lost my vote because of his seeming support for this innane idea.

  • Face Book
    Feb. 6, 2010 9:54 a.m.

    This explains why the Facebook group "Chris Buttars is a senile old bigot who is an utter embarrassment to Utah" has over 4,700 members!

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 6, 2010 12:10 a.m.

    Let's re-vote and send Buttars home. We'd save a lot of media time and wasted breath in the Utah Legislature without him there. I can't believe he actually thinks this way. Who elected him? Which district? Aaaah!

    Scary, to say the least. If we had not cut taxes the last several years we'd have hundreds of millions in surplus (fact). Read Charles Trentelman's (sp?) article in the Standard Examiner about two weeks ago.

  • shecky
    Feb. 5, 2010 11:37 p.m.

    Keep 12th grade. Eliminate Buttars.

  • mark
    Feb. 5, 2010 10:28 p.m.

    What were the odds Buttars would like less educated Utah voters?

    Seriously West Jordan doesn't he embarrass you....yet?

  • Anon 808
    Feb. 5, 2010 2:57 p.m.

    Buttars is just trying to get even for being called Names in School. (I would have either destroyed him or been his biggest defender, depending), Looking somewhat like he does now, only with some hair and not bing able to get a date.

    We can't help it if his Teenaged Avatar said No.

    We need 12th grade..

  • awsomeron
    Feb. 5, 2010 2:48 p.m.

    This Man has finally Lost what little was left of his mind.

    We are having problems with Bus Costs in Hawaii along with having the fewest School Days in the Nation.

    They want to extend the Min distance for pick up, so almost no one would get a Bus. "The Bus" Company has said they can't handle the extra passenger load.

    Not every Student is coasting in the 12th Grade. 12th Grade is where the Scholarships are Decided, both Sports and Academic. 12th Grade is vital for the Socialization Process, The Socialization Process is Vital for life.

    Sometimes the kids are already doing School and Jobs, saving for College or Missions or just supporting that Car.

    Some Kids have Kids already. (Notice I did not mention gender here, because for every Mother there is a Father and Child Support Needs to Come 1st).

    Doing away with 12th Grade is Not A Good Idea.

  • Policecuts
    Feb. 5, 2010 1:22 p.m.

    If we want to save tax payer dollars we should cut some of the police forces who don't do anything. Some are awesome, like in Lehi, where I live, crime rates are low, because teh police are out there working.

    SANDY however, my neice had her car robbed, the police wouldn't do anything at all, my niece had to catch the girl herself. The girl had all kinds of stolen goods in her car and we paid to get her off.

    The police there just sit on 90th and blast through red lights at 70 to catch people who can't afford to register, or to traumatize little old ladies for going 7 over on the hill, and slapping them with additional crimes for not pulling over immediately because it was at the dangerous onramp to I-15.

    It's sad that our tax dollars are going to this instead of catching true criminals.

  • Dear Buttars
    Feb. 5, 2010 12:36 p.m.

    I live in your district and if you don't respond to your constituents, I and my other active LDS ward meembers will be coming for you. You are right not to worry about gay rage, but that is the least of your problems.

  • Good Idea - Bad Idea
    Feb. 5, 2010 9:38 a.m.

    Good Idea - Cheryl Richardson wants to eliminate some of the useless administrative positions in Utah education. Why do we have both state and district boards of education? What is it all those counselors are being paid to do? Every counselor I've had experience with just wasted my time and gave me bad advice that I was, fortunately, informed enough to ignore. What exactly do the district offices do that can't be handled at a state level? That's where the cuts should be in education.

    Bad Idea - Buttars wants to eliminate the 12th grade altogether. The state budget might save some money, but that would put a lot of teachers (you know, the people in education that actually do something) out of the job. 12th grade is not a waste of time for everyone and the people who don't like it can to concurrent enrollment in college. I actually passed three AP tests in 12th grade and learned an incredible amount that prepared me for college. This would really also really hurt any Utah athlete's chances of making a college team without another year of preparation and maturing in highschool.

  • aaron
    Feb. 4, 2010 11:14 p.m.

    This would only make 11th grade the year kids decide to slack off.

  • Emily Boman
    Feb. 4, 2010 10:21 p.m.

    What a great idea! It's not like Americans aren't already behind almost all other developed countries in terms of public school education quality...so cutting a year out of education will definitely help out!

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 4, 2010 8:37 p.m.

    My senior year made all the difference for me. I learned more academic information that year than all my others. I also developed the social skills I needed in order to thrive in the real world.

    To whoever suggested cutting athletics: from my experience there wasn't much money that was taken from school funds if any at all. As athletes, we raised money on our own through our own efforts. I imagine that this is the case in most schools. I learned a lot of discipline playing football and running track. These things enrich lives and that's really the goal.

    Perhaps the solution is raising taxes? Not the first choice for anyone, but it might be time to bite that bullet and pay for what should be our biggest priority as citizens.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 4, 2010 3:37 p.m.

    I learned more in twelve grade than I did any other year, on the contrary I messed around until middle of 11th grade and finally I started getting serious my senior year. I believe it was my most important year in high school, and I learned so much. Maybe instead of building a soccer arena in place of adding to the funds of school education we wouldn't be in such a financial problem. Buttars is the kind of guy that would rather sacrifice our children's education, which ultimately effects their future, our future, instead of giving up private jets, or other funds the senate uses for personal pleasure.

  • Ticked!
    Feb. 4, 2010 7:59 a.m.

    Is he crazy? If anything we have TOO MUCH administration in Education . . . half the people don't even know what their job is and twiddle their thumbs all day or play golf . . . get rid of them first! Many schools succeed with limited funding . . . learn what they do! The fact that this is cited as a good idea by some makes me nervous! If anything we need more education!!!

  • Correction
    Feb. 3, 2010 8:13 p.m.

    Headline should read: "12th graders propose cutting Buttars."

  • Jess
    Feb. 3, 2010 8:11 p.m.

    My son, after carefully considering his options decided to go on to college and skip his senior year. He graduated from an excellent univeristy with a 4.0 g.p.a. and has since earned his MA from another excellent university. It was the best thing for him. However, if I had tried the same thing it would have been a disaster. I needed the senior year go grow up some more.

    I suggest that students who have the motivation and ability be allowed (encouraged) to skip their senior year and go on to college. After they have successfully completed 30 credits at an accredited univeristy, they should then be awarded a high school diploma. This seems like a good option for everyone. It will save dollars, it won't hold anyone back and will help those who need the extra time to mature.

  • Jess
    Feb. 3, 2010 8:02 p.m.

    My son debated about whether to complete his senior year or go on to college (he had already been accepted through a summer school program). It was his decision and I did not try to influence him in any way. He talked to counselors and considered his options carefully and decided to skip his senior year saying to me: "If I stay in high school, I will waste a year." He went on, graduating from an excellent university with a 4.0 gpa and has completed his masters at another excellent university. He was well prepared to do this. But the same wouldn't have been true for me. I needed that senior year to grow up some more.

    I suggest that students who have the maturity and ability be allowed to go on to college and be awarded a high school diploma after they successfully finish 30 semester hours at an accredited university. This will allow ambitious students to move on while giving those that need it an extra year. It will save $ and be best for all involved.

  • Oxy Moroni
    Feb. 3, 2010 3:46 p.m.

    Lets cut kindergarten, all they're doing is finger painting, making things out of macaroni and taking recess every couple of hours. Talk about non productive.

  • Sanity Defense?
    Feb. 3, 2010 2:59 p.m.

    Buttars is out of his mind.

    Why didn't Deseret News cover the controversy between Buttars and Cowan over his interview about gays?

    Buttars called the gay community "probably the greatest threat to America", and he called gays "the meanest buggers" and called gay families "combinations of abominations".

    Does that sound like a sane man?

  • Me, Myself and I
    Feb. 3, 2010 1:58 p.m.

    Buttars is out of touch with reality. While there will always be those seniors who glide by doing as little as possible they are the exception and not the rule. With the advent of concurrent enrolement Utah's public schools partnered with its public colleges and universities off high school juniors and seniors a head start on their college career. Many students in our school district actually graduate with their associate degrees at the same time the graduate from high school. So Mr. Buttars whose waisting their senior year? Not our students maybe our state reps are waisting their senior years pushing bad ideas because they're out of touch with reality.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 3, 2010 1:03 p.m.

    I've been grading papers written by college freshman. Trust me, these kids need 12th grade.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 3, 2010 10:38 a.m.

    If students want to graduate early they have that option as long as they complete all the requirements. Very few are actually able to do so and need at least part of there senior year to do so, especially here in Utah with the idea of released time seminary. To get rid of the 12th grade all together causes other problems as well. What about accreditation? If we get rid of our 12th grade our entire state would lose accreditation and therefore none of the diploma's acquired in the state of Utah would be useless when trying to get into college. And if that happens there goes our educated workforce that everybody claims is the reason businesses come here. And that just starts a domino effect that could kill our state. Do we really want to risk that?

  • What kind of world for kids?
    Feb. 2, 2010 11:40 p.m.

    I remember a few years ago these same forces of lower taxes at all costs, were trying to get parents to pay for all classes that were not core classes such as english and math.

    The vote missed passing in legeslative committee by 1 vote. The law would have made parents pay the full costs of their kids taking band or art or anything like that.

    Its good it didn't pass or only children of the well heeled would have been able to get the full highschool experience.

    Unless we as people want to not pass along less to our children than was given to us, we need to fight. There are several things we can call for.

    Not all businesses are poor during this recessioin. Mining is undergoing a boom, as mineral prices are quite high right now. We could increase our mineral severance tax. It only makes sense not to gut education and not to increase taxes on businesses that are hurting.

    Its up to us people, what kind of world do you want to pass along to your kids. You need to be careful how you vote, you need to fight.

  • mm
    Feb. 2, 2010 6:17 p.m.

    West Jordan,

    Wake up! Quit inflicting this man on all of us. We all suffer from his actions. If you want to do things, go ahead. Just don't mix the rest of us up in your mess. This is soooo tiresome; what more do you need to see what kind of man he is?

    I know, why don't you create a state and he can be your king? Leave the rest of us alone.

  • Help Utah!!
    Feb. 2, 2010 6:00 p.m.


    Now the high achievers and the low achievers would be punished because Buttars and his cronies cannot come up with real budget solutions.

    The mediocre students, with no prospect of work or college need no 12th grade and will thank rep Buttars for more leisure time.

    Those late bloomers who are finally waking up to the need to get enough credits to graduate, and those high achievers who need to qualify for a quality, advanced degree would be punished by short-sighted proposals like this.

    "...sorry that your application to Harvard/MIT/Stanford/etc cannot be accepted because you apparently missed your final year of high school".

    "...sorry that we cannot give you an athletic scholarship since you did not have enough high school credits"

    "...sorry that foolish state legislators did not have enough foresight to provide you even the minimum education to function in the global economy"

  • Nonsense
    Feb. 2, 2010 5:24 p.m.

    This is nonsense. What about athletics - should we just cancel HS athletics? If you cancel HS athletics then you might as well cancel college athletics too because HS is the recruiting base for colleges. Also, there is no way an 11th grader is ready for college athletics - not physically or mentally. Actually, most 11th graders are not ready academically or mentally for the rigors of college. This might all sound good on paper but it doesn't quite fit reality.

  • Steve
    Feb. 2, 2010 5:20 p.m.

    Buttars is doing his psychology backwards. Yes, 12th grade is the time when students are almost done with secondary education, but that doesn't mean that they are going to slack off. In most cases, it means that the students are going to work harder than ever, since this is the last opportunity for things to go wrong.

    In short, Buttars' suggestion could be likened unto saying that people running a race are likely to slow down and stroll along once they get close to the finish line. Do they? No! They sprint!

  • Those students who are the
    Feb. 2, 2010 5:03 p.m.

    type to waste their last year of school, will if we get rid of 12th grade waste the 11th grade instead.

    Does Mr. Buttars think the 12th grade is being wasted because the word 12 starts with a t, or because there is a 1 and a 2 in 12?

    I know I didn't waste my 12th grade experience. Nor did most students of whom I was aware. I know there were some students that wasted every grade, but that is a differnt topic.

  • Naruto
    Feb. 2, 2010 4:54 p.m.

    Did Buttars complete the 12th grade? Sometimes I wonder...

  • Try Idea on West Jordan
    Feb. 2, 2010 4:39 p.m.

    How will Utah attract coveted business to the state when business leader's kids won't be able to have a normal educational experience?

    Why should I have to appeal to what experience business leaders and their families will have?

    Don't we care enough about our own kids to keep 12th grade for them?

    Here is an idea, if West Jordan re-elects Mr. Buttars, lets have a pilot project where the residents of West Jordan don't get 12th grade. See how this works for them.

  • How to save even more $$$
    Feb. 2, 2010 4:33 p.m.

    If we would put the kids to work in factories and mines and farms, and do away with school altogether, we could save even more money.

    12 times as much as just doing away with 12th grade.

  • West Jordan Residents
    Feb. 2, 2010 4:29 p.m.

    There are plenty of comments here that beg you not to vote for Buddars anymore.

    I disagree,

    He makes the legislative sessions intertaining.

  • Think of better argument against
    Feb. 2, 2010 4:27 p.m.

    re re RE: There is money enough | 10:03 a.m. Feb. 2, 2010

    Stalin and Marx would be proud?

    Does that mean the idea is wrong to tax those businesses and people that are thriving?

    When one considers the alternative, dumbing down education, and lessening our future productivity, or raising taxes on businesses or people that are struggling this idea sounds pretty darn good.

    Any way, next recession, perhaps it will be a different set of companies that will be doing well, so it really won't be unfair, everyone will get their turn.

  • hater
    Feb. 2, 2010 3:08 p.m.

    Make all the parents of more than 2 children pay their fair share of taxes. No more tax credits for having a whole brood of children! Two things would happen; 1) fewer children burdening the system and 2) increased revenue.
    If you can't afford 7 children Cheryl, don't have 7 children.

  • Not Competitive
    Feb. 2, 2010 3:03 p.m.

    This crazy idea is one example why there is an army of people who grew up in Utah, moved away for graduate school and won't be coming back. I should know because I'm one of them. I will live in states and communities where they take education seriously.

    Good luck recruiting businesses and high-performing individuals to the state.

  • Unfortunately, Buttars does
    Feb. 2, 2010 2:59 p.m.

    represent me when he makes these totally asinine proposals - not because I am as clueless as he appears to be, but because there are enough stupid people in West and South Jordan to keep re-electing him. There are times when I think they do it just to put some life into an otherwise boring legislature. Without Chris Buttars, we would never know about anything that goes on in the back rooms of the capitol building. With him, we always know that one of the things the republicans are meeting in caucus to try to figure out is how to put an acceptable spin on Buttars' latest attempt to put his foot squarely between his upper and lower 4th year molars.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 2, 2010 2:34 p.m.

    Let's just pay the kids $5,000 each if they have the requirements met by 11th grade.

    Maybe slip a couple thousand in tax breaks to the parents as well.

    Cheaper than educating them, right?

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 2, 2010 2:30 p.m.

    If that were to happen you could say goodbye to any type of scholarship for Utah students.

    Who keeps electing this guy?

  • Former High School Counselor
    Feb. 2, 2010 1:06 p.m.

    The legislators, with whatever wisdom they have, keep adding to the credit requirements needed for graduation. Very recently they added an additional required year of math and another of science. Before that, the financial literacy course. Why don't they require the students to take the same courses for graduation as was required 10 years ago? Then Strongly encourage students to graduate at the end of their Junior year. This would allow those students to move on who believe their Senior year is a waste, and allow those students who are completing classes which are important to them (whether it be to play on a sports team, perform in a musical group, or to complete extra college admissions requirements) to complete their Senior year. Electives are very important classes to many students, and to me as a parent. For many students this is where they learn their life skills. Cut down on the required classes, and let the students and parents determine whether their Senior year is important or not.

  • Jobless students
    Feb. 2, 2010 1:04 p.m.

    In today's economic turn down and high unemployment rates where are these unskilled 16-17 year old students going to find jobs if they can't be in school. What problems could thousands of unemployed teenagers get into? During the 12th grade thousands of students receive college credit during concurrent enrollment saving Utah families thousands of dollars in tuition for college credit. The proposal to cut the 12th grade presents a myriad of unintended negative consequences all costing the state and tax payers more money in the long run. Anyone who had not wasted his time in the 12th grade would know this.

  • give a nother buttars!
    Feb. 2, 2010 1:02 p.m.

    and this is comming from the same guy who can't recognize a BYU shirt! or maybe it was B uttars Y ou U gly!! with this suggestion!

  • Barbara
    Feb. 2, 2010 12:43 p.m.

    I would only be for this if the children could immediately go off to their missions for the Church immediately afterward. Otherwise it would be a serious mistake!

  • How can you people
    Feb. 2, 2010 12:26 p.m.

    in SW corner of SL Valley keep voting for this guy? I would be ashamed if I were you. This guy has said more stupid things, racial and otherwise, than anyone in the State in my lifetime. A good idea would be if Butter's has "a good idea" run fast the other way as it is going to hurt the State publicity wise or economically. This guy isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

  • Right on, Jess
    Feb. 2, 2010 12:11 p.m.

    Early in my teaching career as an English teacher-coach, I suggested to the school district that it might be wise to look at alternate diplomas for our students: an academic-college prep track, a vocational track, and a general track for those who just went through the motions. This was voted down and now as we look back on it, it may have been a thought-before-its-time idea. As has been stated by others, if we drop the 12th grade, requirements will have to be changed at our universities and other out-of-state schools. But again, I propose that the state needs to look at a three or four-tiered diploma. I also remember with caution one of our students who thought baseball was the only thing important in life and in school, and so he kept his grades up and played through his senior year when a science teacher sparked his interest. Today he has a PhD from LSU and continues to teach in Alabama after leaving Utah.

  • No public ed.
    Feb. 2, 2010 12:05 p.m.

    Buttars is way off. We need to stop ALL public education. Public education (even charter schools) are a waste of tax dollars. They teach very little. How can they teach with classes overflowing into hallways. Let's just end the debate and stop funding all public education.
    If parents want their kids to get an education then homeschool them or pay for them to go to a private school. Stop putting our tax dollars into a failed system.

  • Say What??
    Feb. 2, 2010 11:47 a.m.

    This man needs help!!

  • Utah Native
    Feb. 2, 2010 11:22 a.m.

    This is not a one-size-fits-all solution, Mr. Buttars. It may be a good option for the top students who have completed distance ed / concurrent enrollment courses and are mature enough and ready to move on, but some students are still trying to fit in required classes so they can get their high school diploma, right up to the final quarter of their senior year. If anything, establishing and maintaining distance ed and the required technology on the high school campus to make it accessible to all qualified 12-graders is a better option, but don't eliminate the entire Senior Year. I myself was hardly prepared for my freshman year of college, & could have used directed college preparation within the safe and familiar environment of a high school. (I have to ask, was Mr. Buttars a social outcast his senior year? Because that year for me was so rewarding!)

  • I wonder
    Feb. 2, 2010 11:20 a.m.

    I wonder if all this is related to butters not able to get a date to his high school sr prom.

  • This man has no shame at all
    Feb. 2, 2010 11:12 a.m.

    He will say anything without the slightest concern that he is ofending or saying something that is follish. It's almost like he is drunk or on some kind of medication. People that are drunk or medicated say anything without thinking. Look at all the rude stuff Rush says on TV and we all know he was taking about 40 to 50 pain pills a day. So what is Buttars on? Postam? Parrow?

  • Good old box
    Feb. 2, 2010 11:11 a.m.

    I love my box please don't tell me my box isn't good. all the best ideas are in my box. I once heard an idea that came from outside my box and it was bad so I figure all ideas out there are bad ones.

    I'm ecstatic that the Utah lawmakers are willing to look outside the box it is what progressive means. Not the progressive like "liberal" but as in making progress.

    Here is a thought how about schooling to some level of competency and not to an amount of years. A student could learn on the tax dollars what they wanted until the age of 18 then they would need to pay for each course they wanted. Student are also welcome to begin as early as 3 but the state doesn't pick up the tab until they are 5. Adults are welcome to attend as paying students. There see that took me 3 minutes to offer a solution. it's not perfect and somebody might want to make it better.

  • Senator Buttars' idea
    Feb. 2, 2010 11:05 a.m.

    is actually a very good one, but it may be so avante garde that no one will give it a chance. My only concern when I heard about it was how will students achieve the class hours and credits that they need to graduate? It would be difficult to pack it all into more classes and it wouldn't make sense to cut the senior year and then add summer classes or something similar to make up for it. But, hey, at least it is an idea. He's not just whining and not coming forth with something.

  • Seminary
    Feb. 2, 2010 11:05 a.m.

    bad idea | 9:12 p.m. Feb. 1, 2010

    Out-side of Utah - most LDS kids have to get up and go the LDS Chapel and take Seminary before high-school starts.

  • Buttars is a
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:58 a.m.


  • Sasha Pachev
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:53 a.m.

    Back in the 1800s kids were mature enough to marry at 16 and raise families. Now we say that they are not mature for anything except play video games. When I came to BYU (from Russia) it was a shock to me to read through the Deseret Towers rules and discover that pillow fights were not allowed. I thought kids outgrew pillow fights around the age of 12. If we start giving them real responsibilities early they will mature.
    Regarding busing. In Kenya kids as young as 12 years old run 6 miles to school and then 6 miles back. We have a cow when somebody suggests a 17 year old could possibly walk a mile or two all meanwhile we are faced with the evidence that our youth are getting obese.
    School bus is also bad for the environment. Just try running behind one. I speed up to sub-5:00 pace when I see this environmental monster to run away in time and avoid having to smell it.

  • Jess
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:50 a.m.

    Despite what we may believe to be true, by the fifth grade it is already evident who will succeed in university and who will be a 'blue-collar' worker.

    There is a body of evidence that confirms this. A few minutes on the ERIC database will reveal many reputable peer-reviewed studies that show that early academic performance is the best indicator of future academic performance. There may be anecdotal exceptions to this; the proverbial late bloomer, but statistically they are insignificant.

    What does this have to do with the current debate? The twelfth grade is useful to those who will go to university and probably a waste of time for the others.

    We should mandate twelve years of formal education but track students into collegiate prepatory and trade tracks from late middle school age on. That way, each group will get the appropriate instruction and each will be better prepared for the workforce.

    Trade workers should leave school with a license or marketable skill.

    As it stands now, few American high school graduates have the necessary skills for either college or the trades.

  • PLEASE!!!!
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:48 a.m.

    PLEASE West Jordan residents don't vote for this guy ever again. He is the laughing stock on the "hill". Who is voting for this guy anyway? Next time he is up for re-election, there should be a record number of voters show up to get this joker out!!

  • @Truly?
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:48 a.m.

    Small number - what source are you looking at? I would suspect that most complete the vast majority early with the exception of those that are on the edge of not graduating at all, or that don't.

  • wow
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:45 a.m.

    as a parent of a byu freshman and a sophomore in high school i have a much different opinion of some the people who have posted here. my daughter (byu) was in the music program. she played a variety of instruments and excelled academically. why? she is driven but also because she was focused because of her music. my son plays baseball. he works very hard and practices for hours every day. academically he excells, as well. the programs available at high schools are valuable from academics to sports. they keep these kids focused, hard working, and involved in worth while activities. the idea of cutting 12th grade is rediculous. i wonder if he wanted to make the news rather than show a serious point. if buttars wants to get serious i am sure there is plenty of waste to find. much of the waste is usually found in administrative costs. maybe he should start there. why should our students suffer because of his waste? btw, baseball tourneyment trips and marching band competions are funded by the parents, not the state.

  • I'm an educator
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:38 a.m.

    And I think this is a proposal worth looking at closely. There is a lot of truth to what Mr. Buttars is saying.

  • Pagan
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:33 a.m.

    'Chris doesn't speak for the Republican Party who in recent years have seen the wisdom of simply ignoring him.' - 10:08 a.m.

    I disagree. The republican party continues to work to keep buttars in office as a spokesperson for the radical ideas that many wish they COULD present, but would rather get re-elected instead.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:10 a.m.

    Isn't America last to know the Metric system?

    Oh, wait, we don't.

  • Confused
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:10 a.m.

    Why would people post that teachers should not have a say in education issues?
    Don't we want doctors to have a say in health care issues?
    Don't we want economists to have a say on the economy?
    Don't we want soldiers to have a say in wars?

    This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Teachers should be listened to more than anyone when it involves an education issue.
    Those of you who have no respect for teaching are ignorant.
    My brother is a teacher. He has more schooling than I do for my job- mechanical engineer. He got a Bachelor's degree and then had to do an additional 1 1/2 years to get his teaching certificate. He has since gone back and gotten a Masters degree in education also. He is more qualified to talk about education issues than I am with issues in my field.

    Utah- stop telling teachers to shut up when it comes to education. Listen to them since they are the ones trained in that field and actually work in that field.

  • Henry Drummond
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:08 a.m.

    Chris Buttars has a history of making such statements. He was elected, he has the right, and we have the right to concentrate on more serious proposals. Chris doesn't speak for the Republican Party who in recent years have seen the wisdom of simply ignoring him. We should follow suit.

    Let's move on.

  • TDub
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:03 a.m.

    Correction: She is entering as a first semester sophomore... Oops, looked like I didn't proofread soon enough.

  • RE: There is money enough
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:03 a.m.

    "Its not hard times in all of Utahs economy, just parts. Good tax policy would place the burden on those parts able to bear it."

    Marx, Stalin, and all great communists would be proud - they espoused the idea of taking more from the wealthy and less from the poor so that all were forced to be equal. After all, government always can determine what to do with your money, your future, and your soul better than you.

  • TDub
    Feb. 2, 2010 10:01 a.m.

    Again I voice my opinion on something I know nothing about but feel strongly about. I am a retired high school teacher and coach and parent of six of my own and six foster students. My oldest was a sterling scholar in English; my number two entered USU with numerous AP credits and is now a practicing medical doctor. So it goes for each of our children and foster children. All of them played sports, performed in the school musicals, excelled in journalism, worked in the summers and prepared for college. Four of the 12 have teaching degrees and all are gainfully employed. We didn't have any of them drive to high school, and they did it on their own, including being without a car at college. Now I have a grand daughter graduating from 12th grade with enough college credits to enter university as a first semester freshman. They needed 12th grade to accomplish all that they have achieved.

    Yes, the system needs tweeking, but not in the way that Buttars suggests. BTW: too many of you who write here do not proofread or else you needed a 12th grade education.

  • Truth be told
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:47 a.m.

    I have one senior and on junior who is planning his senior year. Both do indeed have little to do during their senior year in order to qualify for graduation. Both are taking college level classes their senior years and will have concurrent enrollment...so what Buttars is sharing does have some merit. I doubt it is an end but a beginning of a conversation that is due.

    And for those that need their last year to get everything done to graduate...there is the option to repeat a grade if progress is not sufficient, not just at the high school.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:44 a.m.

    Hilarious, Slat!

  • Truly?
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:44 a.m.

    Is he serious? With the exception of a small number of students who graduate early or attain their associates degrees when they graduate, the MAJORITY of students are unable to fulfill the requirements necessary for acceptance into reputable colleges and universities in three years. Additionally, very few are mature enough to move on and deal with the rigors and demands of university life. I know: I've raised five children AND teach on the university level.
    Not one of my children had a throw-away senior year; they had full schedules and worked incredibly hard.

    Mr. Buttars, I've never known a representative as out-of-touch with reality as you are. I don't trust a single one of your "facts" and can refute every one.

    Do you even understand the true purpose of education?? That worthwhile things require sacrifice??

  • Research shows
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:39 a.m.

    Someone actually reading educational research, maybe there is hope. Schools could be transformed if applied across the board. Graduation requirements fulfilled by the end of 11th grade, and start school when children are ready to learn.

  • Huh?
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:38 a.m.

    So, senior year is a waste of time so we should get rid of it instead of working to improve it? Gee, what a great idea. By the same token, Buttars is a waste of time, so maybe we could get rid of him . . .

  • sad state of affairs
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:35 a.m.

    its ironic that the same people claiming we do not have money to fund the 12th grade and busing are busy pushing through another patch of message bills that they admit will not stand up in court but they are going to pass anyway an defend in court at great expense that could be going to oh I don’t know maybe.......EDUCATION.

  • Committed to the End
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:34 a.m.

    Oh yes, Mr. Buttars, and we all know money means so much more than education and knowledge. Are you for real?? You are so unbelievably clownish that you've become a caricature of yourself.

    I am an intelligent, educated, registered Republican, and my last straw just broke. PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE resign and stop the damage you cause at every turn. You are a one-man train wreck. The shame and humiliation you inflict on those with whom you associate and are affiliated is profound. For the good of the the State of Utah, of the Republican party which you supposedly represent, and for the sake of EDUCATION, please find a different avenue for your insatiable need for power and attention.

  • Whoa
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:34 a.m.

    Yea, let's cut a whole grade from the students who already lag behind everyone else in the U.S. with the exception of Mississippi.

    No wonder Utahns are so dumb.

  • Provoan
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:25 a.m.

    Buttars is just trying to put himself on an even playing field, I.e., only an 11th grade education. If he didn't need to finish he school, then no one does.

  • Not Every Senior Goofs Off...
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:23 a.m.

    ... or has Sen. Buttars just revealed something about his own HS career?

    Maybe it's time to educate Buttars as to what education is really all about? What a GREAT idea: Let's try to fix a massive budget problem and economic crisis by NOT TEACHING OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ANYTHING AND DRIVING DOWN THE VALUE OF EDUCATION IN THIS STATE.

    Someone remind me again: Did Buttars ever go to college--assuming he knows what college is? Did he actually finish high school? He clearly missed something in his own education.

    Pathetic, Sen. Buttars. Truly pathetic.

  • Get rid of last day of school
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:21 a.m.

    I remember going to school, the last day of school was spent, signing year books, and no assignments were due.

    If we want to get rid of days where no school work is done, get rid of the last school day of the year. If doing that means the next day kids don't work, then get rid of that day too.

    Hey guess what, pretty soon there will be no school days left and we as a state don't have to pay for school at all.

    Seriously though, I know there are plenty of kids who do take their senior year seriously. Also there are plenty of kids who don't take school seriously period.

    Before we do dumb ideas such as this (eliminating 12th grade) why not consider allowing foreign nuclear waste in the state? There is no difference between this waste and waste from other states, except that Utah stands to make a lot more money by accepting it.

  • incredulous
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:10 a.m.

    A student coming out of high school should be prepared for either college or a good job. Students who want to go to college or a trade school need a rigorous high school prep. Those who are suited or prefer a job that doesn't require college should have the communication, math and social skills to obtain it at graduation. Some kids may not realize what they want until junior year. They should have the opportunity to develop from that point. If kids are messing about in senior year, they ARE lazy, and their parents' expectations may be partially to blame. But the curriculum may be, as well. Silly classes should not be offered to seniors. If someone wants to push hard and graduate early, after 11th grade, it is possible, but not for everyone. Kids who can handle that are NOT MANY. Cutting busing in this largely rural state and economy is definitely not an option.

    Butters and his good buddy Howard Stephenson are both embarrassments to most of the good people of Utah. It's terrifying that they keep getting re-elected.

  • Wes
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:08 a.m.

    I think this proves that Buttars is far more interested in grabbing headlines than effective leadership. How much free press will he get for this inane idea, while realistic legislation, and the media attention it deserves, will be buried by this fanatic? This does all go to prove one thing: Buttars was educated in Utah and spent entirely too much time in seminary classes while everyone else was gettin' learned.

  • West Jordan,
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:07 a.m.

    Pull your head out! Seriously. Turn High School into a techincal school and focus kids into where they excel. don't force stuff onto them they or struggle in......

  • Nan B.W.
    Feb. 2, 2010 9:01 a.m.

    Buttars is at least trying to address the problem. I think there are better options. There is amazing waste of supplies and expense for upkeep in schools. Students would be served better to learn to use materials carefully and fewer of them. Many administrators are a total waste of money; get rid of them and let them find menial jobs for which they are qualified. As someone else suggested, students should do more cleaning and upkeep. I taught fifth grade for a dozen years, and 80 per cent of the cleaning done in my room was done by students. I did about 10 per cent and the other was done by a paid cleaning person. The only problem I ever had was when a student sprayed all the stacks of papers on my desk with cleaning fluid, and that only resulted in a lot of laughs. There are probably a hundred ways to make schools more economically efficient.

  • Solution
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:58 a.m.

    I think Buttars has a point...but he just missed it. His point about thinking out of the box is EXCELLENT. How about we toss out funding sports programs and allow the kids and parents to cover those costs, including the cost of buses for those trips. Most kids are playing to "get to the big time" anyway. Parents should foot the bill and not my tax dollars. Not all kids play either. Why should my tax dollars be used for sports while you are cutting programs/courses that could be beneficial to ALL students.

  • 11th would be new 12th
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:57 a.m.

    dude if they cut the 12th grade than 11th is going to be the new 12th. Kids will do the same thing, but won't be ready to go into the real world that 1 year makes a huge difference in maturity, and helps kids grow into college students

  • Bad Idea to Attract Business
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:54 a.m.

    Utah will not be able to attract or keep quality businesses, except those businesses that have not choice, if it is known as a state where kids can't even go to the 12th grade.

    Educational quality and opportunity is one of the important factors businesses consider in deciding to move to a state or to stay there.

    They won't come because of our good weather, we have to make educational excellence the drawing point.

  • SimonSays
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:48 a.m.

    To Dan at 7:48 - Are you for real? This has nothing to do with the Brethren or the LDS church. And, YES, I am LDS. So, your argument that dropping senior year would cause an upset for seminary is very narrow minded. I don't think that we should drop senior year, but seminary should not come into the equation. Teach your kids the gospel at home - after all it is your responsibility.

    As to "teacher" at 7:55, believe it or not there are districts paying teachers a days pay for being a mentor. I am sure there are many districts that do pay mentor teachers.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:46 a.m.

    Utah is competing with other states for businesses to locate here. They are looking for a well-educated work force. Eliminating 12th grade would make economic development much more difficult, I believe.

  • Fed. Funding
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:46 a.m.

    I suspect cutting the 12th grade would do wonders for federal funding activities across a host of areas (in other words we would loose those funds)- but hey we do not need that money anyways since Utah is already a recipient state- we should strive to be a donor state when it comes to the distribution of federal funds- as it stands right now we are a welfare state in terms of federal funds and we in Utah would never want to be that- we should be giving more than we receive and this idea will help make that a reality- I am so excited we will finally get off the federal gravy train and donate more than we get back- I cannot wait

  • 13th grade.
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:43 a.m.

    We should add a 13th grade. Chris Buttars has his GED and you know what? You don't even need a high school degree to get your GED.

  • Lower Legislature Pay
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:40 a.m.

    did it ever occur to Sen. Buttars that lowering or eliminating legislative pay also will help to save money?

    Education is the last place to cut, it is the best investment for the future.

    There are kids who waste time, in every grade, not only 12th.

    By this logic, get rid of all the grades.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:40 a.m.

    Why have public schools at all?

  • Liberty
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:32 a.m.

    I hope the people agreeing with this scheme were being sarcastic. Our kids need MORE education, not less. If Utah cuts a year of secondary education, we will see:

    1. The end of released-time seminary.
    2. The end of high school athletics.
    3. The end of every quality arts and music program at the high school level.
    4. The end of many quality vocational programs.
    5. The end of a quality work force in Utah.
    6. The end of companies relocating to Utah.
    7. The beginning of families leaving the state to educate their children elsewhere.
    8. The beginning of the most severe economic decline in the state's history.
    9. The beginning of class and race riots in our cities.
    10. An increase in drug abuse and teen pregnancy.

    Yes, Senator Buttars, we have things to fear. And if this is the epitome of the creativity of the Republican party during a fiscal crisis, this state is doomed.

  • Volunteers Write Text Books
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:22 a.m.

    Math books in the primary and secondary schools are mostly of low quality.

    The state should ask for volunteers, retired professors, Utah professionals to write quality text books, that Utah would have the rights too, then not so much money would have to be spent on text books. Also the quality of the texts would be higher and education would be better.

  • Scared government employees
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:14 a.m.

    All I see in this forum are people bashing Buttars' person, not his idea. I think it's mostly just a bunch of scared government employees (teachers). 12th grade was a huge waste for me, all of my friends, and most importantly, the taxpayers.

  • Interesting
    Feb. 2, 2010 8:11 a.m.

    Sure, I slacked my senior year of high school. That's why I took AP English, AP Chemistry, Calculus, AP Sociology, Psychology, and Economics. I swam for our school team, played water polo, sang in our A'cappella choir, wrote for our school's literary magazine, and directed a few school plays. I was lazy, lazy, lazy my senior year.

  • Re: Stupid | 3:45 a.m
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:58 a.m.

    Really? You didn't see my post as sarcasm? I was applying the same logic to education that the right wing wackos use for everything else. What is frightening is that anyone would take my post as serious!

    I think eighteen is too young for university for most people and think public education should continue for a thirteenth year for college bound kids.

    We should provide better education in the trades for those not continuing through to university.

    More education has never hurt ANYONE.

    The Factor

  • teacher
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:55 a.m.

    I have been a mentor several times and have never been paid. what district do you work for. i do agree with the d.o. overload, and even the busing. I know most kids do very well the senior year, i also doubt the guy with the associates degree by the end of his jr. year. streatching it a bit.

  • Even better idea
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:53 a.m.

    Why not cut 11th grade too? then we can save twice as much.

  • People of West Jordan...
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:50 a.m.

    this is your fault. You keep voting this Einstein into office. Lets see, someday when a Utah kid wants to be admitted to Stanford, Harvard, MIT, a service academy, or even Salt Lake Community College, the admissions official will determine that only 11 years of prep school was completed. Admission Denied. My kid is a senior in high school this year and has 3 Advanced Placement, 1 music, and 2 other college prep type classes. Hardly a waste of time. So if Butters, and his co-conspirators in the legislature want to cut 12th grade let them start at West Jordan and Copper Hills High Schools (I assume Butter's district). And lets wait for the next election. If anything beef up 12th grade requirements. Lets expect more from our kids rather than less. Note to Butters, this is how leadership is demonstrated.

  • Depressed ....
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:49 a.m.

    Depressed because I just lost a little grip on reality as I previously knew it. Agreeing with this numb-skull (Buttars) pains me deeply. Never-the-less, when he comes up with a novel idea that is actually good I've got to give him credit.

    Look, I've been a Buttars basher like most, but think outside the box people. Our public education system is lacking at best. For those of us who have experienced senior year and sent our own kids through the same, be honest with yourselves. You have to admit that senior year in HS is pretty much a waste of time for the students and teachers as well as a waste of tax payer money.

    Coming up with a good idea at this stage of his career, DANG YOU Buttars! What are you doing to us?

  • Dan H.
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:48 a.m.

    How about we get rid of one day of the week, if it was a weekday we could save ourselves 20% because the kids would only need to go to school four days a week instead of five. I would suggest getting rid of Tuesdays as Mondays will always be what they are, Wednesday is hump day, Thursday is the day before Friday and well Friday is Friday.

    This would match perfectly with the state's four day work week. Then the Senate would only be in session for four days of the week and Buttar's comments and thoughts shared publicly would be reduced by the same 20% - hallelujah.

    My biggest concern about dropping the 12th grade is can the LDS church drop their seminary scripture curriculum to three years or would would they just drop one of the canonized text's - humm which one would it be? Has Buttar's discussed this with the Brethren?

  • Dumb Idea
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:47 a.m.

    Here are some smart ones.

    Not all Utahs or Utah businesses are hurting financially, roll back the flat income tax, and I also like the idea of taxing minerals being taken out of Utah ground, but there is more we can do.

    Teach kids responsiblity by having them be the custodians of the schools. Foreign schools do it (Taiwan that I know of) and we can too. This will make the kids less likely to vandalize and help to teach them responsibility.

  • Mr Buttars is right
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:39 a.m.

    But instead of eliminating 12th grade, we should eliminte 3rd grade instead.

    Most of what is learned in 3rd grade can be picked up by accelerating 2nd grade, and going to summer school before 4th grade.

    What is learned in 3rd grade generally isn't as important as what is learned in 12th grade anyway :)

  • kge
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:28 a.m.

    Education is an obivious target rich area because of the amount of money consumed however, cutting 12th grade is a non-starter. Look deeper and see where efficiencies can be made in education such as spending on extra curricular activities (non-education), administration at District levels, salarys of administrators, etc. Not the 12th grade!

  • Evets
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:20 a.m.

    It has been decades since I was in High School but I remember that I had to stick around for the 12th grade to finish one English Class. They didn't tell me until the end of my Junior Year that that was the thing keeping me there. I could of taken it earlier had I known and skipped the 12th grade and went to college with my older friends. Back then we didn't have AP classes and school was all or nothing...no release time to attend a college class. But if a kid can finish everything on time he should have to option to move on without the 12th grade.
    As for busing...by the time we reached high school we didn't have buses. We drove or we rode with our friends. Except for rural kids, why do they take the bus????

  • CP
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:19 a.m.

    I will try this again.. These two ideas of Buttars are not well thought out. First, the rural areas need school buses. The schools are not just a hop skip and a jump away. And alot of families in today's economy don't have more then one car..so driving kids to school isn't an option nor is having them walk. Second, 12th grade is very necessary. If kids are performing like they are supposed to they need 4 yrs. of English, 4 yrs of Math, 4 yrs. of Science. They can't get that in only 3 yrs of high school. In order to be ready for college these kids need to have this plus a foreign language. Maybe you can get rid of kindergarten, just let it be 1st-12th grade.

  • ex-Utahn
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:13 a.m.

    I'm no fan of Chris Buttars, but this is a great idea for the entire nation. I've thought for a long time that are kids should be applying for college when they are 16. We keep them in primary and secondary school for way too long.

  • Kevin
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:12 a.m.

    What is this nonsense about 12th grade being for "slackers" and "playing around?" What? Buttars, evidently you were a slacker. You should be fired.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 2, 2010 7:11 a.m.

    Buttars is always good for a laugh. Well, for me he is since he's not my representative. If he were, I'd have done all I could to vote him out by now.

  • SimonSays
    Feb. 2, 2010 6:54 a.m.

    Not sure Buttars plan to cut the seniour year of HS will fly, but he does raise some important points - lets be creative about this budget thing. I have a few suggestions regarding the Education Budget:
    1. Discontinue all bus service. It is the responsibility of parents to get their kids to school.
    2. Discontinue HS sports. I am a HUGE sport's fan, but realise that drastic measures need to be taken. Kids can play sport for clubs.
    3. Slash the administration in the districts. Have you ever walked into a D.O? There are people everywhere - everyone seems to have a secretary/assistant.
    4. Charge parents for stationery.
    5. Stop paying teachers to be mentors. Surely being a mentor is part of the job.
    6. Cut back on maintenance crews - there are just too many people doing too few jobs.

    By the way, I am a teacher. Give me a few extra kids, raise my property taxes slightly, make a few tough calls (like the ones I've suggested), but don't cut our salaries again.

  • What a FOOL
    Feb. 2, 2010 6:19 a.m.

    I've never understood this guy. He's a fool and any of you who voted for him are too.

  • the headline should be
    Feb. 2, 2010 6:15 a.m.

    Buttars pushes for everyone to be as ignorant of reality as he is.

  • Spending cuts.
    Feb. 2, 2010 6:10 a.m.

    Buttars has got to be the dumbest individual in the state, and so off the wall with his ill thought out plans.

    If the 12th grade is such a loss to slacking in eduction then its the systems fault, not the budgets fault. By law we are required to provide K1-K12 education and if its not being done then the system needs fixing. To call 12th grade a slacker year and to eliminate it only moves the slacker year back to the 11th grade and the whole issue arises again. The one thing that does not belong in public education is day care and family food services.

    With so many high school grads that can't function in common tasks such as reading, writing, and math who can you blame but the system?

    Budget cuts start at the top and higher education, not public schools. Higher education is not public education therefore that is where the waste and excess costs lie.

    The only high schools that should have any buses are the rural schools where distances to schools are measured in miles and not blocks. Walking is good exercise that many students could use more of.

  • Whose kids is Mr. Buttars
    Feb. 2, 2010 6:08 a.m.

    talking about?

    My oldest is in his first year of University at Salt Lake Community college. He took his senior year very seriously.

    Yes the state may save money by eliminating 12th grade, however it would save even more if it would eliminate 11th too, and so forth.

    Mr. Buttars, this is a really dumb idea.

  • Curmudgeon
    Feb. 2, 2010 5:49 a.m.

    I say let's eliminate 1st grade, then we can still
    have 12th but we would just start counting at 2.

  • There is money enough
    Feb. 2, 2010 5:07 a.m.

    Utah is not short of funds, Utah is just short of imagination on where to get funds.

    The price of minerals is quite high world wide right now, and any company who is taking minerals out of the ground in Utah is doing well financially.

    Rather than cheat Utah kids out of a decent education by cutting educational opportunity, why not increase the Utah tax on minerals taken out of the ground?

    Its not hard times in all of Utahs economy, just parts. Good tax policy would place the burden on those parts able to bear it.

    We should raise funding for education, but at the same time, increase teacher standards and expectations. Math education is a hollow shell compared to what it was several years ago.

    Yes some subjects are taught earlier, (geometry in elementary) and more subjects are taught, we teach statistics now,

    But ... The quality of what is taught is far lower than it used to be. Challenging math problems have given way to very easier problems in the AP track.

    And if Utah is still getting students into the best universities, this is only because the rest of the nation has declined in educational quality also.

  • Getting College Credit in HS dum
    Feb. 2, 2010 4:57 a.m.

    Getting college credit in High School is not as smart as people make it out to be.

    For one, the quality of instruction, especially math educaton is inferior in High School.

    For another, what wrong with getting a full high school education, and then 4 years on top of that at University.

    If people get college education in High School, then to on to take less credits at University, they have cheated themselves out of a full high school education.

  • CP
    Feb. 2, 2010 3:57 a.m.

    If he wants to cut out a grade from school, why not kindergarten?? 12th grade is very necessary in school. I'm sorry but I'm really tired of hearing about Buttars dumb ideas. First he wants to get rid of school buses..that's fine in big cities but not for us who live in the rural areas where it's not logical to make them walk to school when it's not just a mile or 2 away..and now this. He really needs to "put his thinking cap on" a little tighter.

  • Stupid
    Feb. 2, 2010 3:45 a.m.

    Stupid is as stupid does. THe voters who continue to elect him are plain stupid because they elect someone that reflects their values.

    Those who say they wasted their senior year, shame on them. They are the ones who could have taken some challenging classes, but wanted to have fun their senior year. I worked in a high school for 33 years and there were always classes the seniors could take, but they didn't want to because it might hurt their GPA or they couldn't party all year. Granted they should be given the option of graduating early or taking college courses during their senior year.

    But to cut the 12th grade in one fell swoop, is pure insanity.

    Dear Factor: Another lamebrained comment. Yes, private schools could do better, but only because they will exclude anyone who earns less than an A. They will not accept Special Education students or parents who cannot afford the tuition. Then we will have an elitist society. It is in the interest of society to have an educated citizenry.

    Our problem don't want to fail students (thier poor psychi) and the parents have abdicated their responsibility. Kids are lazy.

  • Increase mining tax first
    Feb. 2, 2010 3:38 a.m.

    Is there no end to the madness, that education has to be cut through the bone?

    There are sources of funds, .. we can increase the tax on mining or we can reverse the flat income tax, which was a significant tax cut for Utah's wealthy and pocket change for everyone else who benefits by it.

    Don't we value education any more? What has happened to our values?

  • jake
    Feb. 2, 2010 3:16 a.m.

    The real fools are those that keep this thing in office! Why not just get scrap high school all together, that will save $!

    Has this ever been sonw anywhere in the world . . .

  • when n` doubt Go back t`School$
    Feb. 2, 2010 2:37 a.m.

    Anyone can get educated after
    For the price of Money v/s Skills of a Trade..

  • Silva
    Feb. 2, 2010 2:34 a.m.

    This would put a larger gap between the rulers and the ruled. It would make it much more difficult for many students to make a transition from high school to college,

    Suggest enforcing immigration laws. With $6,000 per student spending, 100,000 children costs this state 600 million dollars each year.

    Remove state supplied health care from our legislature. The majority have said that Government run Insurance is no good.

    Ask Goldman Sachs for the 47 million back we gave them last year in tax breaks. It's money we will be paying for in the years to come. At least when Obama bailed them out, he asked them to repay it (no bonuses until paid). It was paid in less than a year.

  • Comments at 8:03 and 8:46
    Feb. 2, 2010 1:35 a.m.

    You both make some good points. My kids all graduated in rural Nevada, where the school system is run much differently than here in Utah. There were many required classes that were not available until 12th grade due to prerequisites. But many of the kids took online classes or distance learning courses (where you interact with the professor via live video) so many had college credits by the time they graduated. If kids here are finished with most of their credits by 12th grade, then there should be an option for taking only the required 4th year classes (like English, Math, Government, etc.) and then being released to attend college classes or seek employment. I don't think 12th grade should be "done away with", but perhaps modification would be in order.

    As for busing, in rural areas there is no other way for kids without cars to get to school. Some kids travel 20-30 miles one way to get to our high school, so busing is essential for many. Public transportation isn't available in many areas of the state. Not sure of the solution there, but I don't believe busing should be eliminated.

    Feb. 2, 2010 1:06 a.m.

    @Recent HS Grad

    I don't know if the problem was the school or you, but I worked my bottom off my senior year and I learned a lot. Maybe you were a lot smarter than I, but it doesn't look like you applied it very well.

    I was even asked for my high school transcript for a job application a few years back. I am sure glad that it didn't show that I only had the ambition to take 4 art classes my senior year.

    If you are so gifted, I'm sure your entire senior year could have been more rewarding if you had helped some of your classmates (and in my class there were some that needed help.)

    One of the ideas presented for seniors is an IN-DEPTH review of many professions. Not just a guest lecturer to stand up and say, "this is what my typical day is like."

    Mr. Butters doesn't represent my opinion when he says get rid of the 12th grade. If we do maybe we should have a year of something like service in a field like resource management or medical.

  • Open minded
    Feb. 2, 2010 12:58 a.m.

    I graduated at 11th grade and went on to college and got my degree early and I am one of supporter of the idea. It may not work for everyone but at least look deeply not so much about saving money for the sake of the state, but a lot of senior at high school can say its kinda waste of time.....well the key education happens at college not high school

  • Are you kidding?
    Feb. 1, 2010 11:12 p.m.

    Where in the world does this guy come up with this stuff? My senior year was not a "waste of time" but I took the opportunity to take AP classes that enriched my understanding, and not only gave me college credit, but actually prepared me for a college work load. Students have the opportunity to graduate early if they want, but why would we deprive students of educational opportunities just to save a quick buck. This is probably worse than the bus cut suggestion. And Mr. Buttars is just showing us the fact that his education probably did stop in the 11th grade. I don't understand how somebody could be so short sighted, education is the key to the future, take it away, and we have no future.

  • MadMax
    Feb. 1, 2010 10:36 p.m.

    This is just what we need in Utah a less educated society. The 12th grade offers students a chance to persue areas of interest in more depth, to investigate subjects which they may not have had time to take before their senior year becasue they were completing required courses, or to gain maturity to face life through leadership opportunity and advanced level experiences. Sen. Buttars is wrong to suggest that 12th grade is not essential for a full comprehensive education of our Utah students.

    Implementation of this idea will put Utah students at a distinct disadvantage with their peers from other states in both college and the work force. We will have created a sub-class who is unable to compete on an equal basis with other teens. What are you thinking Sen. Buttars? (Perhaps it is that you do not think.) We need leaders who not only think outside of the box, but leaders who think of productive solutions to problems not create new problems with 'hair-brained' solutions.

    Sen. Buttars it is time for you to retire from the Senate and tend your garden, or take a vacation. Enough of politics for you. You sir are joke!

  • Lack of Thinking
    Feb. 1, 2010 10:34 p.m.

    Is Buttars really this absolutely out of touch? He has come up with some doozies in the past year. Where is the data for his statement? My kids work hard their senior year because scholarships are on the line. If he's looking for shock value just to get his name in the papers, he wins the prize. We want thoughtful ideas that make sense and add value. He scores a big zero on this one. Let's just vote him out so we don't have to hear any of his unsupported nonsense.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 1, 2010 10:11 p.m.

    With all the talk of lower test scores compared to other countries, we need to make 12th grade tougher and more stringent, not get rid of it completely. When there's a storm, you weather it, you don't dismantle the boat.

  • More thoughts
    Feb. 1, 2010 10:08 p.m.

    Yeah Buttars--let's put 17 year old kids on college campuses--that's a great idea. What is he thinking--it's tough enough to go to college at 18, or get a full-time job tehn. Also, not everyone has a car so you're pretty much saying anyone who is middle class or low income just don't come to school or walk miles to get there. Finally, I agree that senior year should be beefed up to give kids skill sets for college, tech jobs or whatever, but making 11th grade optional is plain stupid. I can't believe people vote for this politician.

  • is anyone
    Feb. 1, 2010 9:55 p.m.

    suggesting that we drop all athletics? They did that for us in Alaska in the late 80s due to budget. Just wondering.

  • gdp41
    Feb. 1, 2010 9:28 p.m.

    what about athletic programs or educational programs where your senior year is what colleges are looking at. very few athletes get looked at there junior year in high school its not til senior year comes around that scholarship offers start rolling in. this might not make a difference if all utah colleges change on how they approach this but it will make a huge difference on if out of state colleges even look at these athletes because they are interested but not quite satisfied to offer a scholarship. if they are looking at two different athletes both have a good junior year but only one gets a senior year and obviously outshines the one who doesnt even get a chance and either misses out on a scholorship or has to go to a smaller college and try to work their way to the bigger school. either way they miss out on an opportunity.

  • bad idea
    Feb. 1, 2010 9:12 p.m.

    In response to Sen. Buttars wanting to discontinue 12th grade: he is saying that we should fast track schools to get kids out by the end of 11th grade. This is a terrible idea and will not save us as much money as he claims.
    1. Many, many kids take seminary during school hours. If we fast track them then seminary goes away during school hours. That means we now have all those kids needing to be in a school classroom. If they are not in seminary they will be in a school building. That will cost a lot of money to get more classrooms for all those kids- which means more schools and more teachers. There goes a lot of Buttars supposed savings.
    2. Kids are not mature enough at 16 and 17 (Juniors) to be heading off to college. Heck most 18 year olds aren't mature enough.
    3. Utah kids will not go to college. Since most universities in the USA require 4 years of English and Social Studies and want 4 years of Math, Utah's kids will not be accepted into any university.
    No thanks, Sen. Buttars.

  • The Factor
    Feb. 1, 2010 8:54 p.m.

    Why not get rid of 12th grade? Get rid of ALL the grades. The entire school system is just another government entitlement program. If people want their kids educated they should let the private sector do it. I'm sure private schools could do a better job than the socialist school system we have now!

    Let the free market decide! GOP in 2012!

  • Laughable
    Feb. 1, 2010 8:47 p.m.

    How can anyone take him seriously....why does he keep getting re-elected? Inquiring minds want to know. Is he really the best this state has to offer?

  • Recent HS Grad
    Feb. 1, 2010 8:46 p.m.

    I recently graduated and I must say, that I am sure thousands of tax dollars were wasted on me taking 4 art classes and a few gym classes senior year. I was not a slacker though. By senior year, thanks to concurrent enrollment, I basically had my associates degree. It is my experience that most high school students really do waste the senior year because there is little the school has to offer them. If anything, senior year should be completely run by SLCC and students should start taking college courses instead of filling the day with underwater basketweaving.

  • dave
    Feb. 1, 2010 8:33 p.m.

    ejucashon, whoe neds it?

  • RE: joe | 7:48 p.m.
    Feb. 1, 2010 8:20 p.m.

    I agree that "Thinking outside the box" is something our congretial leaders need to do more. However, cutting back on our students education is not thinking outside the box. I see Buttars idea as a week minded solution to a big problem.


  • Chris
    Feb. 1, 2010 8:12 p.m.

    Buttars is an embarrassment to his constituents and to the people in the state of Utah. I would hope that those he represents cut him from the legislature.

  • It would work great for lots of
    Feb. 1, 2010 8:03 p.m.

    students! Many have finished most college requirements by 11th grade. If they would "free" the kids to just take one or two last classes (and NOT financial lit - they should exempt kids with a test for that class)it would be GREAT! Kids could start taking classes at SLCC, get jobs and earn money for college - anything but spend countless endless hours in the high school halls wasting their time with friends, "hanging out"!

    Now lots of kids still would need and want a Senior year, but why not allow an "opt-out" for the MANY who would take it?

    GREAT IDEA!! Just needs a little tweaking!

  • joe
    Feb. 1, 2010 7:48 p.m.

    This Guy is awesome! And he's absolutely right. ..we cannot keep things as we always have. Buttars has a real spine and shows some creative solutions to the budget shortfall...I haven't even heard anyone else up on the hill suggest anything to deal with the issue at stake. People, wake up! Most of you in Salt Lake County voted for change last year, and all I see on the comment board is people wanting to keep the status quo.

  • Ethan
    Feb. 1, 2010 7:20 p.m.

    Who keeps voting for this guy? ...One bad idea after another. Time to retire.

  • utwingnut
    Feb. 1, 2010 7:10 p.m.

    All right, I've had enough. This guy just keeps making those who he is supposed to work for look stupid. Will you people who keep electing this guy please stop voting for him? It's time for Buttars and his generation to retire and fade away.

  • Don
    Feb. 1, 2010 7:05 p.m.

    This really is a weak minded idea! I'm curious as to how there can be no need for 12th grade? My high school experience included the following requirements(had to look it back up)4 years English, 4 years Math, 4 years Science, 4 years History, 3 years Foreign Language. 1 semester Geography, 1 semester Language Skills(English Reading and Speech Presentation) Required Classes also included 2 semester Art/Music and 4 years of Physical Education, plus other electives. Maybe the education requirements are too weak or the classes are too easy? Or the Legislature is to Lazy or afraid to do the job they need to do!

  • pburt
    Feb. 1, 2010 6:56 p.m.

    Will Mr. Buttars foolish statements never end? Please, someone close to him, make him stop! Or at least edit him.

  • rickh
    Feb. 1, 2010 6:55 p.m.

    How stupid can people in Utah be to continue to elect this nutbar.

    Anyone sure that he passed his senior year?

  • Can't believe it
    Feb. 1, 2010 6:49 p.m.

    Honestly, the only Buttars has ever proposed that makes sense.

  • Butter comes up with a good
    Feb. 1, 2010 6:48 p.m.

    Butters comes up with a good idea?

    Kill the 12th and Buses for most High School teachers.

  • Slat
    Feb. 1, 2010 6:46 p.m.

    Buttars should grow a brain. That single brain cell he has up there is getting lonely.

  • WOW
    Feb. 1, 2010 6:41 p.m.

    this is one of the worst ideas i have ever heard. how stupid can politicians get?