One phase of FLDS work is complete

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  • JR
    May 1, 2008 10:02 a.m.

    When I was small my grandfather was a farmer. He raised cattle---one "Big,mean "bull, and a large herd of cows.Are these men any different from amimals? From my viewpoint, it appears they are a bunch of"dumb brutes" on a power trip to satisify their own selfish sexual fantisieswhile enjoying the power trip of controling other people.

  • Jim2485
    April 30, 2008 8:18 p.m.

    Every day it seems less likely that these people are guilty of anything other than being religious. If they have broken the law they should be charged and dealt with. Lay charges immediately or let the children go home, this "trial by press release" has gone on long enough. The nightmare these children are enduring at the hands of the State of Texas cannot be justified and should cease immediately.

  • anon
    April 30, 2008 12:22 a.m.

    It is not normal for the mother of any child that gets taken by cps to get to go with. These mothers have been lying to law enforcement and cps to protect themselves and their spiritual husbands, instead of cooperating. There is seemingly a very low ratio of boys to girls in the teenage group. Where are these boys?? I think that these women need counseling before they should be allowed to have their children back. I understand that they love their children, but they dont know that they themselves are the victims of abuse, and have been themselves perpetrating abuse, unknowingly. One cannot compare the statistics of normal teen births with the flds rate. more than 50 percent is astronomical!!

  • Fact seeker
    April 29, 2008 10:27 p.m.

    FLDS marriages, according to their website, are one legal, and the rest spiritual. The spiritual wives are eligible for welfare and get it for their NUMEROUS children. Remember, the more wives and children, the higher tier in heaven they'll reach. Talk about taxing the system, they are already doing it, and not putting a dime back into it!

    The men work, according to other articles, for government and contract entities. Look up the Lost Boys. There's no way the gender split in children under 13 is about 1:1 but 13 and over there's 3 times more girls than boys.

    The reason the other states with FLDS compounds in them haven't acted is because their followers or government contracts are tied into the leadership of their townships.

    Kudos to Texas for thinking of the children first. If one child in 10 is being abused, all 10 need to be removed because the abuser will turn on the others. If the mothers are willing to put their children in front of their ideology, they should have to prove that before getting them back.

  • X FLDS
    April 29, 2008 10:28 p.m.

    re----No proven facts to date??????


  • No Proven Facts To Date
    April 29, 2008 9:41 p.m.

    Everything that the State of Texas has stated so far is nothing more than speculation. CPS has yet to state any proven facts. So how much are they paying per day for this roundup mess? FACT, these people do home school. They save the state hundreds of thousands doing this. No one has charged them with welfare fraud or mentioned it legally. If public opinion is cemented in wild gossip only, then I can now comprehand why more was not done for the Jews when Hitler made his outrageous demands and spread his extermination orders by attempting to poison the minds of everyday government workers.First, seperate them and bus them apart. Until proof positive surfaces that a law was broken, these children were neglected or abused, or that an actual crime took place, public opinion needs to remain more open minded to both sides. I do hope, for the sake of the children, the hearings move quickly.A day in the life of a misplaced, scared child is a long time. How long will it take to repair the damage as weeks go by? Texas, I'm glad you have big money, but money can't fix some damage.

  • VegasBaby
    April 29, 2008 8:55 p.m.

    Hey SparkyVA, go to the business entity search of the Nevada Secretary of State web site and search the last names of the sect leaders and you will see where they get a lot the money to fund their operations. Rulon is still president of some of the active corporations.

  • bilbo
    April 29, 2008 8:52 p.m.

    The following statement is NOT in defense of FLDS; it is against the heavy-handed Texas actions that were the worst of any realistic options.
    We agree the age of 13-16 is too young for marriage, especially 'arranged' marriage.
    But, the years of 13-16 are very active years when related to abortions, sexual activity, drugs and crime in a lot of subcultures and geograhic areas in good ol USA.
    We bemoan the facts mentioned above, but pay Planned Parenthood $55 million (yes, FIFTY FIVE MILLION DOLLARS!) per year to provide confidential and anonymous abortions, birth control and related counseling to females of the same age group, with no parental input or authority.
    Where is the outrage for this miscarriage of justice and gross hypocrisy?
    WHERE is the OUTRAGE!!!???
    You who gloat are in serious denial of the degeneracy of our society (which YOU and I are part of) in these areas.
    We really need to research Margaret Sanger, American Birth Contro and Planned Parenthood.
    The racial outrages of these groups and individuals make you sick!
    Where is the OUTRAGE, you hypocrites!?

  • OnceAChild
    April 29, 2008 8:48 p.m.

    This is another of those ugly situations where man thinks he can control all those around him who trust him. He uses his power to abuse the tender hearted by convincing them he is a god. Stories like this are becoming more and more known to the world, and they who have committed such atrocities or worse, their names will continue to be "shouted from the rooftops". They will not be able to hide their offenses from the world anymore.

  • Julie
    April 29, 2008 8:45 p.m.

    One more thing. It sure is telling that the church run newspaper has more comments that are pro FLDS then not. CPS did their job, these people abused their children. Hopefully some of those dirty old men go to jail. Why is that so hard to understand Utah??? Too close to home for you.

  • SparkyVA
    April 29, 2008 7:50 p.m.

    Can someone explain the source of income for the FLDS community? My suspicion is that it it Aid to dependent Children as well as other forms of welfare. The Spiritual marriages would be non-legal and leave the mothers free to say they had no legal husbands. If this is the case, then the real cause of this tragedy is the do gooders who set up these laws and giveaways that this group has learned to live on. Remove the give-away and remove the problem.

  • Fred one
    April 29, 2008 7:24 p.m.

    Even if the CPS loses on this case, the polygamy issue must not seize from being investigated to the fullest extent of the law. It's obvious that FLDS cannot tell the truth about anything. Their whole religion is only based on total lies!

  • Perfection
    April 29, 2008 6:20 p.m.

    Nobody claimed that CPS is perfect and knows every single child that is or has been abused. All that CPS can do is respond to those they receive information about. They received information about FLDS and are responding to that. It is that simple.

  • Insterested
    April 29, 2008 5:29 p.m.

    Thank you again Hoosier.
    Exactly the point I was trying to make! The power we the American public have given to CPS is shocking as evidenced by this case. And to me; equally shocking is that they can in full view of the public eye use it like this with what I presume is complete confidence.

    In my opinion it is time for us the American public to step back and take a serious look at this government arm that has power outside of the scope of the Constitution. Judge, jury and executioner all in one and just because they (CPS officials) think something is wrong or bad! Is that the kind of America we want.

    To all of you that think CPS is doing such a wonderfull job why don't you go and look into their track record. How does it compare with the average parent in America????

    Do we really believe that CPS can stop every child in America from suffering???

    Do we really believe that this action is the best way that CPS can help with the problem of child abuse???

    I think it is time to go to change the power CPS has.

  • BeeCareful
    April 29, 2008 5:05 p.m.

    1.What good will DNA testing be if they can't locate the fathers? They have not arrested any men? Any of them who are really "guilty" of fathering children by under age girls have long since vanished unless they're total idiots. So what good is all this testing.

    2. How do they know some of the "teenagers" have given birth? Have they done detailed, invasive, degrading embarrassing pelvic exams on these victims against their will? Why are they punishing the victims here?

    Lots of questions, few answers. Texas has egg all over its face!

  • BootScootnBoogie
    April 29, 2008 4:20 p.m.

    We do not know a lot about the unique needs of these children. What do I need to know before giving anything to the children from YFZ?

    I know the color red is not allowed.
    Does anyone know anything else?

    I'm not talking about food but something the children might take comfort in receiving.

    Are they allowed to have dolls? Stuffed animals? Certain type of toys? Books?

    Thanks for real suggestions.

  • Scotto in TX
    April 29, 2008 4:12 p.m.

    I think many contributors here need to be patient. DNA testing is pretty good at this point, and if babies are fathered by someone in the group, that pattern will show up in the data soon enough.

  • over 18
    April 29, 2008 3:59 p.m.

    they do have drivers lisences and cars!!!!!
    They are American citizens and also HUMANS believe it or not. YES, they have been being treated as cattle.
    and if any officer called in on a drivers lisence they would find out if it was fake. When they finally did this was when they let the two 22 year olds go.

  • Guilty until proven innocent
    April 29, 2008 3:25 p.m.

    I have yet to see one abuse specifically cited. All is hearsay. We are separating more than 460 Moms and children based on hearsay and generic comments such as "we believe there is an abusive belief system" (specific belief tenets uncited). "31 out of 53 pregnant underage girls" (well, at least we think they are underage). A phone call from Sarah, who turned out to be an activist?

    YES, this could all be justified.

    But we do have laws in this country, are they null and void???
    I have yet to hear of any proof. Have you? Are we expected to trust CPS authorities omniscience in the matter?

  • ediddy
    April 29, 2008 3:14 p.m.

    to re: over 18 (cont.)
    Birth records would be the most effective, but if you can forge a drivers license, can you not also doctor birth and other records?

  • ediddy
    April 29, 2008 3:06 p.m.

    Wrong, wrong and so completely wrong!
    The LDS church may well provide humanitarian service where appropriate, but it is in no way responsible for those who continued to practice a proscribed way of life and certainly not 100 years later. I have no idea how you stretch to reach this conclusion, but if one of your children leaves your family and acts in a way contrary to what is acceptable to your family, are you responsible for that childs continued disobedience. Not!!!! Get a clue or a grip or some common sense and understanding.

  • to Scared American
    April 29, 2008 3:02 p.m.

    Every American SHOULD be scared but they clearly are not and one can only wonder if they just don't get it! The state has made some destructive charges against these women, with no proof, then refused to allow them to defend themselves. WHO calls that a Democracy?

  • Re: Over 18
    April 29, 2008 3:02 p.m.

    You seriously think these girls had drivers licenses? Last thing the old men were going to do is give these girls cars and drivers licenses.

    Besides, as everyone know a drivers license is hardly proof. How many 18 year olds are there running around fake IDs. How many illegal immigrants have "official" IDs?

  • ypman
    April 29, 2008 3:01 p.m.

    As a Texan I fully support the state in their efforts and do not mind the money it will cost us to continue the process since people keep mentioning that as an important issue. A good friend of mine is a regional manager for CPS and I know that often all the children are removed from a home while an investigation is being completed. Since these folks live in a compound setting and not homes, but dormitories it was essential they remove all children. I personally think when the process is complete some children, but not all will be returned. I would like to think that would not happen but I believe it will.

  • lynn
    April 29, 2008 2:40 p.m.

    It sickens me to think of any female in bed with a man because she feels if she isn't, her eternal welfare is at stake!

  • Smokescreen
    April 29, 2008 2:34 p.m.

    The FLDS sympathizers are great at spin, but their lies are quickly catching up with them. They know that their leaders actively encourage and participate into forcing young girls into arranged marriages. It's a basic part of their culture and beliefs, only now that they've been caught with their hand in the cookie jar, so to speak, they're too ashamed to admit that they've been abusing their children in exactly the manner for which their kids were taken away.

  • chemist
    April 29, 2008 2:26 p.m.

    Re Re Chemist.
    Thanks for the clarification. I did think it oddd that the women were there, but not the men. I presume the fact that they are not there is not an implication of guilt on their part?

  • Vicky
    April 29, 2008 2:05 p.m.

    My comments were not abusive, not offensive, not off topic, not misrepresentative, and less than 200 words.
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints must take responsability for its past and present.
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints is the most qualify intitution to take care of these unfortunate mothers and their children.
    What about love and compassion for the "lost sheeps"
    These indoctrinated women are victims of past priciples practiced and teached by LDS Church.
    The root of this social, spiritual dilema is in the
    LDS Church.

  • Over 18
    April 29, 2008 2:02 p.m.

    26 of 53 claim to be over 18
    Did C.P.S. refuse to look at their drivers lisences like they did the two 22 year olds that they had in custody for two and a half weeks?

  • Two wrongs?
    April 29, 2008 2:01 p.m.

    Somebody mentioned in one of the comments that two wrongs do not make a right. You betcha. Polygamy may be wrong or illegal, but the state of Texas commited far greater wrongs. Forced separation of mothers from even nursing babies, raid based on lies and deception (the 33 year old pretending to be 16 year old abused girl), condemnation of the accused before any proof (crossexamined qand documented) in court, demonizing these people without any objectivity and real concern for the children, not allowing them to have lawyers present, herding them like cattle when all this was going on... we can just go on and on. I shall believe most of the accusations when I see an irrefutable proof. It smells like a persecution, looks like persecution, behaves like a persecution... what do you think it probably is?

  • Re; Chemist
    April 29, 2008 1:49 p.m.

    One of the basic rules of law and procedure is that when someone is accused before the law, that person is not allowed by their lawyer to spout on anything, especially to the media that twists and adapts anything said. This matter is now before the courts and the FLDS leaders (I presume) are not allowed to say anything, except through their lawyer/s. That is a normal procedure applied to anybody. Have you never heard people say: "We cannot comment, the matter is now berofe the court"?

  • The Texan
    April 29, 2008 1:38 p.m.

    Some of the questions on here seem inane. You want the state to return children to "loving" mothers who stand by and watched them either banished or raped? Stop and think for pete's sake.

    To those of you who pretend that if someone else is doing something wrong then it's OK for you to allow others to do the same are referred to as accomplices and should go to jail with the perps.

  • wrz
    April 29, 2008 1:37 p.m.

    >>i can't believe how after the facts are coming out about this sick 'religious' pedophilia, some people still defend the FLDS!!!!

  • Anonymous
    April 29, 2008 1:20 p.m.

    To say that this is about religion is silly. It is about money. Texas, get out your check book.

  • Anonymous
    April 29, 2008 1:13 p.m.

    1. I cannot speak about other FLDS communities but I doubt that the YFZ folks were using the welfare system before the raid. (now they are using it involuntariy) If they were, there would be absolutly no excuse for caseworkers having trouble keeping track of everyone and their names and birthdates. The welfare system does not just hand out money without bodies and birth certificates attached.

    2. If TX is going to get sued, look for someone connected with non-FLDS CPS families to sue for caseworkers with the same caseload as the FLDS, the same quality of food and other considerations being given to the FLDS. I think the FLDS are a special case on numerous grounds but could someone still sue on some kind of discrimination grounds?

    3. Just for an exercise giver everyone the benefit of the doubt about the imbalance of teenage boys. This community was established in TX only a few years ago. I would expect there to be teenage girls streaming there because they think it is an elite route to salvation. That does not answer questions about teenage age boys among the FLDS overall, but...

  • Chemist
    April 29, 2008 12:50 p.m.

    Being in the midwest I must say I do not personally know anyone who belongs to the flds. I must base my opinion on what is reported about them. The fact that several of their male leaders are in prison, registered as sex offenders, etc is quite compelling. I do find it very interesting that none of the male leaders have appeared on nationwide news shows to give their side. Some of the flds women did as well as former members. Are the men afraid they would implicate themselves or would have to duck some direct questions? Based on the reporting I have seen to date I find almost nothing admirable about the flds religion or lifestyle.

  • Ricky
    April 29, 2008 12:43 p.m.

    This articleis about the cost to Texas the raid has had. Not mentioned is the cost to Texas of the lawsuits that are coming.
    As a note. I was taken from my home as a teenager and subject to some warped minded people. My life has never been the same. I was not taken away for something I had done or something my parents had done. Basically we don't care what the government do to children in their care.

  • RE: It is time
    April 29, 2008 12:42 p.m.

    To the poster at 6:33am: I wonder how many children you have adopted that were taken from their parents? I have adopted 4 (2 sibling groups). There are many other children in Utah right now whose parents have lost custody of them due to neglect, abuse, etc. If CPS in TX deems that the FLDS children cannot be returned, they will need to be adopted into loving homes. I ask anyone who is capable to look at the Utah Adoption Exchange website. If you care about the FLDS children, why not care about others? It is extremely difficult parenting these children, they come with many emotional problems and require retraining from some of the things their parents taught them, but very rewarding.

  • D Osborne
    April 29, 2008 12:38 p.m.

    I think that one of the greatest dangers is that if the children are returned to their mothers, the mothers might well poison the children (and themselves as well.) They would probably rather see them dead than raised on the "outside". The mothers seem to be under the mind control of someone or something. After all, mass suicide/ murder has happened before in other cults in recent years , under similar circumstances.

  • wow
    April 29, 2008 12:38 p.m.

    one more thing, it makes no diffrents what the state finds, they could convict and hang every person on the FYZ ranch, and it still will not justify the way they are stripping you and me of our Rights.

  • wow
    April 29, 2008 12:28 p.m.

    i can't believe how after the facts are coming out about this sick 'religious' pedophilia, some people still defend the FLDS!!!! WT?...hmmm...i guess alot more FLDS have computers and web access than i thought!

  • TheMadNuker
    April 29, 2008 12:23 p.m.

    Truth begins to filter out:

    1: Governor Perry was involved from the beginning.
    2: CPS will get what it wants; Lots-o-money.
    3: Texas will have a financial toll for years to come.
    4: Many of the children will be abused in Foster Care, if not die.
    5: Many careers will be made or destroyed.
    6: The Baptists will continue to lose membership.

  • hmmm
    April 29, 2008 12:11 p.m.

    Seems to me if they found even one girl that was 15 or yonger that was pregnant they would shout "HEY WE FOUND ONE!!!!!!!!!!!" and go arrest someone, but no they are saying "We believe that 31 of them either have children or are pregnant." Why dont they say how many they have that are REALLY underage and pregnant. I think we are being fed a line. They already striped these little girls and "checked" them for sexual abuse, and nobody got arrested. The only proof i have ever seen is from somebody who is selling a book they wrote. Hmmm.
    Every body who says we need to stop these people from the systematic abuse needs to quit believing everything the media feeds us because they obviously want to print the most sensational story they can. Hmmm. Or are all the antiFLDS posters really the authors of a sensational book? Hmmm. Ill just wait and watch. It seems from the more recent stories ive seen the FLDS side of the story is more sensatonal then the exFLDS side.

  • CA
    April 29, 2008 12:09 p.m.

    That's some real bad math on your part, Leroy. Reread the story.

  • Anonymous
    April 29, 2008 12:09 p.m.

    How many of the people commenting here personally know the FLDS people? Is all the comments based on hearsay and media?

  • Hoosier
    April 29, 2008 11:50 a.m.

    Re: Interested 10:44 am.
    Yes, I belive that in that hypothetical situation CPS could and probably would take all of the children from the home. CPS could also keep the children as long as they thought the children would be endangered if put back into the home. Agreed that CPS in all US states has a great deal of power.
    Is it too much? Do they err on taking children un- neccesarily? Do they err in not taking them in some situations or in putting children back in the home when they should not have? Yes to all of the above. If you don't like the guidelines your state CPS works under get with your state ligislators to get them changed. In the meantime don't try to apply the normal rules of criminal jurispendence to CPS.

  • Leroy G.
    April 29, 2008 11:48 a.m.

    CPS says:
    31 of 53 girls 14 to 17 are pregnant or we believe they have children.
    26 with disputed ages who claim to be over 18.
    That leaves 6 right? 6 who would fall into the category of undisputed. So why don't they give us the ages of those 6 undisputed teens? Probably because they do not know the ages there either. Guessing games!! Maybe they think these could be 17 too and won't say that because then the case falls apart. They hope that they are right and they are actually underage and pregnant etc. We as the public need to recognize that they may not be.
    If a 24 and 28 yr old are still classed as 17 then they as a group must look very young but looking and being are different things.
    The Texas Rangers took the documentation during the raid. Sooner or later it will be sorted out but in the present, the 26 get to stay with their babies and or other children of FLDS.

  • Scared American
    April 29, 2008 11:39 a.m.

    What are we doing to bring the FLDS Children Back to their loving Mothers?
    This is the worst attack on the Constitution and our Country I have ever seen, it stands to do more damage than if a nuke had been dropped on us.
    If the state of Texas is allowed to walk on Americans Constitutional Rights as they are doing now, we are at risk of losing our Country.
    I don't believe anything is worth giving up our Constitution, if we can't follow the constitution in bringing Criminals to justice, then criminals should go free, it's not worth the trade off, however if we can do an investigation "without destroying the constitution" bring criminals to justice all the better. And if a Investigation is done and find those people to be innocent. What shame will be on us as fellow Americans it is not just our right but our duty to defend fellow Americans and The Constitution whenever we see them threatened, by no other means can we call our self's Patriots.

  • More than Half
    April 29, 2008 11:31 a.m.

    More than half the girls at the FLDS ranch/prison that are capable of being pregnant are either pregnant or have already had children.

    Sorry "to bcbob @ 4:32 a.m." but 60 percent of high school girls are NOT pregnant. 60 percent of them don't even have sex. I bet the number of FLDS teenager girls that have had sex is probably closer to 80 percent. Statistically, if you are an FLDS teenage girl at YFZ ranch/prison you are more likely to have sex and get pregnant than the average girl outside of the YFZ ranch/prison. And don't forget, the girls inside YFZ ranch/prison are forced to have sex.

    Good move Texas. 60 percent is clear evidence girls are raised and forced to have sex with older men.

  • New Mexico
    April 29, 2008 11:23 a.m.

    The children should be our first concern, however, the welfare situation must be staggering. I have long questioned where FLDS gets their funds, and would like to know who pays for what. In a way, this story is somewhat like the tyrant in Austria who kept his daughter captive for 24 years. Who do these FLDS men think they are anyway? Arrogant is one description for sure. They proclaim that sex is not the issue with multiple wives and children, so what is the issue? I say that they cannot exist out in the normal world, and couldn't find anyone to marry them anyway, so they invented this sick and twisted way of life. Jail is the answer for all the adults, and yes, if they are found to have accepted welfare wrongly, they should sell any assets and pay it back!

  • jmd
    April 29, 2008 11:01 a.m.

    It's nice to finally see some comments that make sense. This is about the rights and/or protection of children. I am proud to live in a country that at least tries to help those who can't help themselves. Nothing is perfect but I believe that the authorities in Texas are trying to do right thing. The FLDS cult has been engaging in these type of disgusting practices for years and have gotten away with it in a large part because of public outcry against the government getting involved. The ones in control of the cult are well aware of publicity and how to manipulate our democratic society. Seriously how many women and young girls do you know that would live this way if they had a choice and truly understood the alternatives (void of threat of eternal damnation)? It's absurd to compare young people who engage in sex at their own choosing to those who are forced into it by intimidation or threats.

  • Chemist
    April 29, 2008 10:55 a.m.

    Re: To Bad, 10:20 am.
    I would really like to hear to from one of the flds leaders. I am sure that if Merrill Jessop or someone like that called one of the networks and wanted to be interviewed they would accomodate him. So far the flds spokesperson is their lawyer, Rod Parker, who is not, and never has been a member of the group. I would really like an flds leader to give their side rather than the hired attorney. How can the judge prevent anyone not in state custody from appearing on a TV show?

  • billy
    April 29, 2008 10:50 a.m.

    To Anthony Samuelson: You are correct there is massive inbreeding and there have been articles about that. One of the founders aparently had a recessive gene that causes a very rare condition that causes extreme retardation. The percentage of children born with this is expected to explode over the next few generations.

  • Grandma
    April 29, 2008 10:50 a.m.

    Papers in Canada are reporting that 15 of the children in custody are Canadians from B.C. I wonder how many others are from other countries. I have also been wondering why these children have not been returned to Canada. That would save Texas money.
    Interesting note.
    The age of Consent in B.C. is 14 which is different from Texas. Many have fought to change it with no success. The attorney general here has been advised by legal authorities that if polygamy is challenged by the courts it would likely become legal. In England I have been told that polygamous marriages are recognized as long as they were performed in a country where they were legal.

  • Jon Whitney
    April 29, 2008 10:45 a.m.

    If instead of being a small religious sect, the FLDS were a Native American (or Asian or African or any other) tribe that practiced polygamy, and in which the common marriage age was in the teens for girls and from the teens to old age for the men, would this raid have happened? Would the common cultural practices of such a tribe be considered "abuse"? For the moral relativists among us, the answer has to be "no, it's not abuse." For the moral absolutists, myself included, the answer may be "yes" but the solution would be to send missionaries among them to teach the truth and convert their hearts from such wicked practices - not to commit, as the state of Texas has, ethnic cleansing. I only call it that instead of genocide, because it was done without bloodshed.

  • Interested
    April 29, 2008 10:44 a.m.

    Thank you Hoosier, but why not follow your logic all the way through. If you did report that you suspected your neighbors 14 year old daughter was having sex with her 25 year old boyfriend and you called CPS would you be surprised when they came into that home and took not only the 14 year old daughter but the 5 year old and the 1 year old also. Held them for 14 days without trial and with out allowing the parents to see them and then put them into foster care with no charges filed and the only explanation was that the were in imminent danger because there was a pattern in that home of sex with an underage girl by older men???

    The fact that CPS claims that they followed procedure and that everything they did was legal (and based on what we can see from the media they did)and yet we have the results we see here should frighten every parent in America.

    Your children are not yours. They are wards of the State. Any right or priviledges that you have with them are gifts to you from the State!

  • AJ
    April 29, 2008 10:40 a.m.

    @anonymous | 8:56 a.m. April 29, 2008:
    From what I have read here and in other newspapers, it sounds like these people are self-sufficient. I have also read that they own real estate where they run farms, have financial investments in various businesses that bring in money and provide other services that bring in money (such as the cement factory on the ranch).

    What is your basis for the welfare remark?

  • Look at yourselves
    April 29, 2008 10:34 a.m.

    It seems that for the most part, the people writing comments here are the ones that read every slanderous article the media wishes to put out about the FLDS. The children are sweet. Read your bibles and see how young the women were. You LDS, you baptize your children at age eight--the age of accountability. How can people who sit night after night watching what HOLLYWOOD wants to "Brainwash" them with, have any honest judgement at all? Get your facts before you judge. True facts do not come from the media, CPS, or the government.

  • Ut eNative
    April 29, 2008 10:31 a.m.

    Yes the children are the Main Concern here, but this article mentions more information about the State of Texas buget and what it has cost to them up to now to go after the FLDS. Alot of things are horribly wrong with the FDLS, and what has taken place in the compound, but it's even sadder they wouldn't let the mothers go with the children, let alone the babies.

    In additon to this, Texas needs to be as assertive with the drug lords and illegal aliens flooding the state, as they were in this case.
    There's no place like home...Utah

  • Re; Anon 9:24 am
    April 29, 2008 10:24 a.m.

    Let me see if I have your opinion correct. You say that both parents are guility of abuse so you suggest sending one parent abuser to jail and leave the kids with the other parent abuser. When the first guility parent is paroled you place the abused kids with that abuser and send the second abuser to prison. This is very interesting! I just think your logic is a little flawed!

  • to bad.
    April 29, 2008 10:20 a.m.

    the Texas Judge and police are hidding a lot, they are filtering the media so the same thing wont happen to them like what happen to the shortcreek raid many years ago. Almost every constituional law has been taken away from the FLDS people. I fill sorry for them. Funny how the media always forgets to get the FLDS side of the story. They say the FLDS people wont talk to them... no true the Texas judge wont let them talk to the media, because if they do then she is in big trouble.

  • To:Yah Right 8:31 am
    April 29, 2008 10:17 a.m.

    FYI: The Baptist relief team has been around since 1967. They have thousands of vehicles and over 70,000 voulenteers that respond to all disasters including a major effort during Hurricane Katrina. They served over a million free meals last year. I cant find the same from the FLDS. Google it.

  • Steve
    April 29, 2008 10:17 a.m.

    So if the alleged child abuse that justified taking these children was the grooming of young girls to become child brides of middle aged men, how do they justify the taking of the male children?

  • Charlotte Van Tielen
    April 29, 2008 10:10 a.m.

    Texas has made a royal mess of things. I am sure there would have been a much better way to go about finding and punishing those who broke the law. I do not sympathize with the teachings of the FLDS Church, but I do have sympathy for their women and children. As an LDS woman, I pray that there might come some resolution, one that would help the mothers reunite with their children.

  • Hoosier
    April 29, 2008 10:03 a.m.

    If you had a 14 year old neighbor girl who you had strong suspicions was having sex with a 25 year old male your responsibility would be to call CPS. CPS would investigate and if the evidence warranted the male would be prosecuted. If a family member was doing it they would likely remove the girl from the family to prevent further abuse. It would not mattter what religion the family is. To say that this is based on religion is silly. It is based on protecting children using the guidelines CPS operates on, those guidelines are quite different than for criminal cases. I suspect that the dues, donations, whatever paid by the flds members will have to go up to pay for all of the legal costs.

  • anonymous
    April 29, 2008 9:58 a.m.

    What is to stop the CPS from going into any home in America and taking away an mothers children.

    That family has two parent that drink to much. CPS goes in takes away the children on the pretense that the kids might grow up to become alcoholics and drunk drivers.

    This family allows their children to watch music videos. CPS comes in taks the kids away on the pretense that the children will become addicts, pimps and sluts.

    Where does the line end and where does it begin?

  • TO: to bcbob
    April 29, 2008 9:55 a.m.

    Fear of predators on the internet has skewed your perspective. Do you know ONE, even ONE teen girl victimized by an old man on the internet? The numbers of such crimes are real but very low. Don't imagine the world, examine it and observe it please.

  • Anonymous
    April 29, 2008 9:50 a.m.

    that just great, i dont like the ideal of the flds having marry to young girl, but how many of yall out there say it ok for or kids out there to day to have premarry sex, ooooo it ok as long as they dont jump bed. just have it with one person that they plan, if plan on marry. so what are you taching your kids out there is ok to do, the lord said take the log out of you on eye first, and i saying yall or putting the log in you on eye and teaching your kids to/////

  • Chemist
    April 29, 2008 9:49 a.m.

    I agree with bcbob. Also if the mothers were complicit in the abuse they should also be prosecuted. It would not be the first time mothers have been imprisoned for crimes they were involved in. The flds supporters really irritate me when they paint a picture that implies that girls living outside the flds compounds will end up being sexual at a young age. I raised daughters who were, and also have grandchildren who are modest and chaste until marriage in their 20s. Polygamy itself is illegal in Texas and Utah. Texas could, if they wished, prosecute the flds for that. I understand the FBI is looking at the evidence taken in the raid. This odious cult really needs to be shut down, otherwise they will continue on their present course of lies, deception, polygamy, child abuse racism, fraud, etc.

  • WBM5
    April 29, 2008 9:43 a.m.

    Do the math... 58.5% of the girls are pregnant or mothers! Wow! That is staggering!!!

    What if over half of the girls at my daughter's school were pregnant or already mothers? How about your kids school? What about the nation as a whole. If this were the case we (as a nation) would feel we had a serious problem, but since we only care about ourselves and we hide behind religious freedom it is okay to allow this to happen to them.

    This makes me sick!

    As for inner city girls and their plight... money has been thrown at them for years. Program after program. Maybe it would be better if we did take away their kids and the monthly checks they get. That system doesn't work to get them out of it, but keep them depended on the system. Let's pay to have the girls educated then the birth rates will go down. That is proven.

  • Anonymous
    April 29, 2008 9:24 a.m.

    bcbob: You got it right except for one thing. A child is punished when you take away a parent. Both parents in this case ought to have to do jail time. Not at once tho so as to not deprive the child of any parents. Rotating terms for each would serve the child better. The parents would be punished for breaking the law, the child/children would have some time with each parent.

  • CA
    April 29, 2008 9:24 a.m.

    Bob- part of having freedom is having the freedom to make choices that you or I may not approve. Grownups have the freedom to make life choices and grownup/parents are charged with raising their kids to share their values. I think we can agree on this.

    However, these 13, 14 and 15 year old girls and boys do not have the freedom to reject the choices made for them by thier parents. Therin lies a problem.

    Sure, some kids (and adults)across the country wear stupid clothes, get pregnant, make bad life choices, etc., however MOST do not.

    And,I think the DNA testing will answer your question about how many old men have been siring kids with non-legal-aged girls. I suspect the answer won't be pretty.

    Finally, Planned Parenthood is THE LARGEST PROVIDER of reproductine healthcare services in the county with over 4 million visits by men and women every year- more than ANY other healthcare organization in the US. They provide annual tests for cervical, breast and testicular cancer, and treat reproductive disease multiple thousands of times more than they provide pregnancy terminations, which are obvioulsy greatly desired as the numbers show.

    Plus, most who terminate pregnancies identify as Christians.

  • anonymous
    April 29, 2008 8:56 a.m.

    "If all the men are in jail as you desire, then it will be the wives that have to pay the costs"

    I don't think these guys are supporting their wives and children anyways. Most of them are on welfare, the wives that do work have to turn their paychecks over to their husbands.

  • Anonymous
    April 29, 2008 8:49 a.m.

    It is sad that religion has been used as an excuse for pedophilia. But the goings-on at the FLDS ranch is only the latest string of abuses that people perpetrate on others for the sake of belief. What's sad is that this sect is not alone. There are others who practice this type of abuse localy under the name of their particular faiths currently in Utah and other western states. This has only come to light recently, but if the truth be told there are more who are silently, secretly suffering under these twisted, warped religious practices. It is time these others are exposed and investigated, and if necessary shut down. As for the 1st ammendment, nothing in the constitution guarantees the practice of pedophilia!

  • to bcbob
    April 29, 2008 8:41 a.m.

    Thank you for your comment. I think you are right on. This isn't about religion, this is about basic human rights. Percentage wise there are far more pregnant teenagers outside the FLDS and lots of abortions. I am positive many of them with older men met on the Internet.

  • FLDS Deflecting
    April 29, 2008 8:40 a.m.

    FLDS apologists are deluded in thinking that simply because there are other pregnant teenaged girls in this country and that other kids that are also abused, that somehow justifies the FLDS in abusing their children.

    Stop deflecting and admit that what you have been doing to your children is wrong.

    Two wrongs never did make a right.

    Stop trying to deflect criticism of your abusive lifestyle.

    Stop forcing your daughters to submit to your child sexual abuse masquerading as "religious beliefs."

    Stop abusing your sons by forcing them out of your community so that the old men will have less competition.

    Stop abusing your families by reassigning them to different fathers.

    Stop willfully breaking the law and then expecting the law to protect your "right" to abuse your children.

  • Anthony Samuelson
    April 29, 2008 8:32 a.m.

    For the record, I am the author of the 5.14 a.m comment by "Anonymous". I failed to fill in the box at the top by mistake. Although I live in England I am appalled at the treatment accorded to both the girls and boys by the FLDS. My reason for writing about the boys is that it seems to me that their predicament is in danger of being overlooked. There is something rather nasty about old men sharing out the female children among themselves, which is what has been happening in the Texas Ranch, and the LDS is to be admired for resolutely turning its back on polygamy. Likewise the state of Texas is to be congratulated for doing everything possible to bring this abuse to an end.

    What are the chances, when the DNA results are in, of a dangerous degree of inbreeding, if not downright incest, coming to the surface?

  • Yah Right!
    April 29, 2008 8:31 a.m.

    The rumors that we are hearing about the FLDS are the same old rumors that used to run around about the LDS people and their temples. The world is a fickle place and loves a "bad" story. Until the REAl information comes out through the legal system with lawyers and others looking at all the "facts" we still may never know the REAL truth. It is all a travesty...The poor families. I would never want to be in their shoes. By the way, in my community in central Texas we have SUV vehicles with magnetice signs that have popped up. These signs read "Baptist Disaster Relief Team". No Kidding! I have never seen one before this week. I've lived here a LONG time. What do you think the chances are that the Baptists, long time haters of "CULTS!", are jumping to rescue all those lost souls? Think about it...

  • sj
    April 29, 2008 8:14 a.m.

    How in the name of humanity can the citizens of Texas, who watched this walled city go up, just pretend things are alright? It seems to me it is a bit like the trains of Jews in Germany when the farmers just kept on working, even knowing murders and abuse were going on right beside them. Hard to believe just what people will accept. Any woman who knowingly sets her daughter or son up for this treatment (and they all know) is as guilty as the men who keep it going.

    And, what do these people do for a living? Who supports all those people?

  • the world
    April 29, 2008 7:51 a.m.

    You know what.
    If you say the "cult" is illegal, then you certainly can't make them bear the costs of a worldy state seazing the children.

    They are no more a "cult" than any other religion in America the free and the brave.

  • gal50
    April 29, 2008 7:51 a.m.

    When a mental list is compiled of why Utah and Arizona don't go after the sect, the expense is one thing that comes to mind. Both are small states with large FLDS populations.

    Comparatively, Texas is a large state with a relatively small FLDS population. Here, it isn't going to blow the budget.

    If this all came about because of Rosita Swinton, Texas must wonder how different the outcome would have been if it never got the call and the sect grew to contain thousands of well-guarded FLDS members or if an FLDS member finally broke rank ten years down the road when a raid would have been more costly and massive.

  • Anonymous
    April 29, 2008 7:21 a.m.

    Im glad the CPS finally used their calculators.

  • Debbie
    April 29, 2008 7:19 a.m.

    Why aren't we hearing of any arrests of abusive men? It seems Texas is only interested in punishing the victims. Yes, the mothers are victims too. Anyone who has studied abuse knows that it takes little time to break a person's spirit until they don't know anything else, they are numb and accept what their captors tell them. Punishing psychologically (as well as possibly physically and sexually) abused women by depriving them of their own children is further abuse and is totally contrary to teaching them how to stand up for themselves and avoid abuse in the future. Texas is reinforcing the fears that have been put into their heads by their abusers - that the outside world will hurt them.

    Where are the experts in psychological abuse of women who could explain how this is not the way? You do not lock up the victims without sending a message that they are to blame for their abuse.

    Yes, children need protection, but they would not be at risk staying with their mothers with proper help and counseling. The mothers are not the problem and the fact they didn't know how to protect the children does not make them abusers.

    April 29, 2008 7:15 a.m.

    Genocide ----- Texas has committed Genocide

  • The Abuse
    April 29, 2008 6:57 a.m.

    31 of 53 Girls ages 12-17 are pregnant or have babies. Is anyone still faulting Texas for Raiding this Compound. And some are saying they should leave the ones under 12 because they are not being abused. We do not know that is the case only the fact that they can not get pregnant. Even little boys are molested. Brent Jeffs was by his uncles.

  • bcbob
    April 29, 2008 6:45 a.m.

    I agree with you. But dont' stop there. I demand that the innercity get raided too. Lot's of teenage mom's there as well. And their mom's were most likely teens when they gave birth. I know grandmothers who are only 28! TWENTY EIGHT. No dad's in sight. No means of support, except your dollar.

    Raid them as well. You should not have a double standard.

  • It is time to take more children
    April 29, 2008 6:33 a.m.

    Time for the State to take away all teenage mothers' babies and put them up for adoption. These anchor babies are such a toll on our welfare system it is time to begin rounding them up and putting them in good homes.

  • Anonymous
    April 29, 2008 5:14 a.m.

    I was disappointed that none of the commentators who came after my contribution to discussion around the Amy Mackert article (3.18 pm yesterday) had anything to say about the plight of the boys who are cast loose from the FLDS on any handy pretext to make way for elders who wish to have multiple wives. For every man with five wives there are four boys who are pushed out into the cold. Come on Deseret News - what about an in depth piece about what these discarded kids think about what has been going on in the Texas ranch?

  • AJ
    April 29, 2008 5:02 a.m.

    If all the men are in jail as you desire, then it will be the wives that have to pay the costs. I presume that since you mention the men should be jailed and not the women, you see the men as guilty and the women as innocent. If that is the case, then it would not be correct to have the women pay the price of re-housing the children and jailing the men.

    Other arguments that could be used:
    1. Both the women and men are guilty and should be jailed.
    2. Both the women and men are conditioned by their upbringing and thus are in need of counseling and not imprisonment.

    No matter what is chosen from the above, the question remains of who is going to pay.

    While I am not FLDS, I do think that outside of real abuse, we do not have the right to judge these people. As for their beliefs and non-abusive practices let God be the judge.

  • to bcbob
    April 29, 2008 4:32 a.m.

    Mothers allowing their barely teenage daughters to...
    ...get myspace accounts and post foul language and provocative photos of themselves... online with older men...
    ...dress like little prostitutes...
    ...go to parties and consume alcohol... hours of mind-numbing televisions and get lazy and fat...
    ...get pregnant and get an abortion, again and again...

    ... the list goes on and on. Problem is, these young girls are the ones next door to YOU, or maybe in YOUR HOME. And we, the moral authority, should have every right to simply take them away from you, after running your name through the media mud, of course.

    How many "barely teen-age" FLDS girls have been proven to have had sex with "depraved middle-age men" ? Now, how many child rapes does Planned Parenthood cover up every day, and use your tax dollars to do it?

  • It's interesting ...
    April 29, 2008 1:37 a.m.

    ... how on a micro-economic scale, the burden of the FLDS is of great concern, according to this article.

    But spread across Utah and Arizona and across the entire United States as a whole, the millions upon millions of welfare fraud and economic burden of this decades-long financially abusing sect has never been a concern.

    Just saying.

  • bcbob
    April 29, 2008 1:22 a.m.

    Mothers allowing their barely teen-age daughters to have sexual relations with depraved middle aged males is truly abusive. All of their children should be taken away from them in order to keep them from abusing more and more of their children. As for the men, quite simply they need to be imprisoned for a long period of time and the repulsive FLDS sex cult should be required to pay for the cost of imprisoning the men and the cost of putting the children with new parents.