I couldn't agree more, john b. Even if this turns out to be a total CPS fiasco,
our anger and protesting won't help. Just setting up the trials is difficult.
Rather than shouting "shame on Texas" perhaps you could do something to HELP the
CPS get this all straightened out.
re:right 1 when they went out to findand save the caller they found several
teenage girls pregnant yhey reported this and she wrote an order to pick
up all the children2no one was arested so no maranda neededthe
officers and courts are trying to settle a very unuseal case they need are help
not our anger
I found something on a CPS-related website -- I believe it's the provisions for
removing children. Thought you might like it:SUBCHAPTER B
PROVISIONS AND RESPONSIBILITIES FOR REPORTING SUSPECTED CHILD ABUSE
6311. Persons required to report suspected child abuse. 6312. Persons
permitted to report suspected child abuse. 6313. Reporting procedure. 6314. Photographs, medical tests and X-rays of child subject to report.
6315. Taking child into protective custody. 6316. Admission to private and
public hospitals. 6317. Mandatory reporting and postmortem investigation
of deaths. 6318. Immunity from liability. 6319. Penalties for
failure to report.In the FLDS situation, there was a call (
6312-6313). If the call was faked, then they (CPS) may not have known. That
call authorized the investigation of the compound. Once the authorities were in
the compound (a little too heavily armored), they found abuse and removed the
children ( 6315). As for photographs, medical tests and X-rays of child subject
to report ( 6314), I have no idea if they did that.snickerdoodle
awaits your comments.
Too many ambulance chasing lawyers in the mix. Send 2 children to
each of the 258 counties in the state. That should calm things down.
polygamy is abominable in the eyes of most normal thinking people. However for
those who choose vices and lust for woman are of a smaller group of perverted
human species. They cannot conform nor commit to just one person. They do not
like to get too personal about anything, and more or less like to hideout from
others. They only indulge in the pleasures of the flesh. Nobody needs religion
for cover ups to do immoral acts, but they do. Polygamist use religion as a
cover to make evil look unrighteous. This is how Satan works with his followers.
Sodom and Gomorrah life style
To all of you clamoring for evidence, I suggest one thing:"Escape"
by Carolyn Jessop.I listened to part of a recording of it. That
left no doubt in my mind of the sexual abuse in that community.Now
are you going to try and deny Carolyn Jessop? Is she now a fake?If
polygamy isn't abuse, then I don't know what is.It said in the
article that "they found abuse". I think that's pretty simple. They found
abuse. Period. Look for those precise words in the article. (it's in one of
these FLDS articles somewhere) If you can use the article to defend
you thinking, why can't I?
Polygamy is for dogs, that is why we have them neutered and females spayed.
Guys, this was legal. Trust snickerdoodle.
*hold your fire*This was legal.This was based on abuse
found in the community.The authorities went in and did not find
*Sarah* -- but they did find abuse.Sounds like an investigation to
me. I can just imagine one of the FLDS geezers saying- "last thing
we need is an investigation . . ."
To " Nothing to Snicker about "The call was "fabricated and it
matters not what evidence was found in the compound" ????Once the
investigation starts they can turn over every stone if they feel they need to.
It would be no different then a child inadvertantly called 911 and the cops
showed up at your front door to respond and while you are explaining that the
call was an accident they see something illegal in your house while standing at
the door talking to you,they are going to come on in.
Look, people.This was not a crime.This was legal.The kids were removed base on *concrete* evidence.Let's
pretend . . . you're 14. You have been married to a 53yo man. Now you're 5
weeks pregnant. You are his 3rd wife, and he is the only husband you will ever
have. He abused you yesterday, and you can barely move without pain. You will
never know any other life. You are shouting thanks to CPS, and you can't eat
for fear of being sent back to YFZ.snickerdoodle would not want to
live like that. Neither would you.
The question to consider in this precedence setting case is: What rights, are
we willing to sacrifice for the protection of suspected child abuse? Due
process, Miranda rights, seach and seizure, all have been side stepped in this
case. Texas is on the rebound of their vacuum-hose murdering mother tragedy and
may be over reacting. Surely, the cost is not an issue, but tax
dollars will be severely overburdened if every suspected abuse case is by law,
forced to react to every real and remote report of abuse in this manner. I
doubt if there exists enough foster homes in America to handle all the potential
abuse. Institutionalizing abused children will be the next logical approach.
Will Texas choose to look the other way in the case of
non-polygamous under age pregnant girls or are they willing to treat everyone
FLDS, Polgamist, are weird, strange, and relatively Permanent disorder of the
human mind. Hopefully there is hope for the children. No one in this day and age
should be subject to this kind of slavery and abuse.
Ralph,"We're all paying for this "lifestyle." "Thats
true. We are also paying for the lifestyle of welfare moms all over the
country. The difference is that these people have a dad (perhaps not a great
It will take some time to get to the truth of this situation. You have a group
of people who will not tell the truth as they have been programmed and
brainwashed not to speak. You can see this in the interviews. We are not dealing
with rational individuals. It is interesting that none of the men involved are
around for interviews. Many of the leaders of the FLDS are either in jail or on
the run. The children cannot give their real names and in many cases many not
know who their fathers are. No matter what your opinions are of the law or
morality, there are too many "red-flags" here not to investigate this further.
Today, the lawyers for the children started making objections before anything
had been presented to object to. For once I hope the judge seeks for the truth
first. There are too many prior problems on record with this group not to push
forward with a full investigation.
Hypocrites 8:19 a.m. - Did you not see the headline on CNN.com yesterday the
prosecution of Madam D.C., on of D.C.'s largest escort services. And don't
forget just last month another escort service was busted, which resulted in the
mayor of New York stepping down. If you actually read the news from other
sources than just Deseret News, you'd see government agencies across the nation
are "cracking down" on such crimes. I read stories all the time about sex rings
being shut down. Do a google search or two.
The calls are all recorded (there was more than one). The call came from a
borrowed cell phone. Good luck on a trace, some phones can be traced, some
can't. El Dorado is REMOTE.The removal came because of what the
authorities found. Sarah is just the trigger and does not have to appear in
person. Read the court papers people, stop making things up. It's an abuse
investigation.The practice by the FLDS of stone-walling and lying is
making it all the worse. Watch the interviews, ever see people change the
subject multiple times?Since the FLDS, wouldn't identify whose child
was whose, this is going to go on for too long. They brought the problems on
themselves. DNA will have to be used to determine who is biological mother and
who is biological father. Should be interesting.
Hey Snickerdoodle,I have a question for you but first let's recall a
bit of history. The FLDS group has been raided at least 4 times in
the past based upon the exact same allegations, (i.e. child sexual abuse) and
each time ALL allegations were PROVEN FALSE, the FLDS were exonerated and
children subsequently returned. The FLDS group is and has been under
constant surveillance and scrutiny by numerous government agencies for many
DECADES. All that time those agencies have been looking very carefully for ANY
wrongdoing of the group and yet they have found NONE.And now the
question.What part of your argument accounts for the statistically
significant wrongdoing and violation of the 4th amendment of the US Constitution
by the state of Texas and it's subsequent government agencies?On a
side note I thought the statement "Don't mess with the children of Texas," was
very revealing. They honestly believe that the children are the property of the
state of Texas and are behaving as such. What an eye opener.Lane
To .. St. George Resident. You Are Right. I was abused in a home by my father
sexually. These children have no choise. You are at the mercy of their parents
and elders. Because they are brainwashed, they do not tell of the abuse. The
Mothers, they are hard for me to understand. How they get themselves in the
mess in the first place. Someone would have to kill me before I could go along
with my children being treated this way. The men are perverts. They hide
behind a claim of religious rights to privacy. The women are all on welfare
because they will tell you they are not married. The young boys are made to
leave home and go on their own. Because the young women are to go to the
perverts. Texas has a big job ahead of them. The FLDS members will all lie to
protect the perverts out of fear from years, if not their whole lives of
intimidation. This is criminal. It must be stopped.As far as them never
being able to live in a normal life..... That's rediculous. Everyone wants to
be loved, they will understand basic rights to all.
For Snickerdoodle: What evidence?
Yahoo news just reported that Tx Gov Perry has announced he will seek
prosecution of the mothers b/c they admitted to polygamy, which is a crime...
The plot thickens...
It's about the children! They didn't choose this lifestyle! The children will
talk... if nothing happened, they'll go back. Fact is, Warren Jeffs has already
been convicted and he's the so-called leader that all of these brain-washed
people helped hide. Do you think it stopped once he went to jail? Don't think
so. These old men love these younger girls...a little too much! I'm disgusted
by anyone who thinks that children shouldn't be removed from this type of
situation if there's the slightest possibility something is wrong. Shame on
While you all moan about the poor kids, and it is sad, remember it is us
taxpayers footing the bill for all this . . . and the welfare payments that go
to the 2nd, 3rd, 4th wives and their broods because polygamist Dad won't claim
them legally (illegally?)We're all paying for this "lifestyle."
No one would want their children removed from their home. However, if you were
giving your children as young teen-agers away to be used by men old enough to be
their grandfathers, it would be right to remove your children. Just because
these women got on TV and manufactured tears doesn't change what's happening at
that place. Where are the brave, bold, tough men? Nowhere to be found.
A society that tolerates old men having sexual relations with children is a sick
one therefore the most humane and moral thing to do is to remove the children
from this cesspool.
What *physical* evidence? A bed? with a long hair? give me a break!!! I hope
that if they do find abuse..By the way, It's hard to know who to trust. Doctors
against this could say "yes they were sexually abused" on the other hand,
another doctor re doing the same case could find nothing wrong. Who can you
trust? I hope that if they do, * beyond the shadow of a doubt*, find abuse that
they treat them like anyone else in America today. If they dont-- You can't tell
me that there are 416 cases of abuse!! for heck sakes people!! If they don't I
hope those people bankrupt the state of Texas with the amount of lawsuites they
could put together!! Tune in next time for an exciting statement from-Burn baby
What is all the physical evidence? The only thing I've heard is a temple with
beds in it, but who's to say who was in the beds. Did the authorities catch
someone in them? There should be more identifiable information from the caller
before invading anything. I guess a person who doesn't like someone could call
and make up a story about them and the state would come in and haul away whoever
they want and start to criminalize innocent people.
Guys... before you post, please take time to pray for this situation.. that
whatever the side, that only the TRUTH is revealed and justice is done
(regardless of side) and the children end up the winners (regardless of side).
This is serious and prayer is needed..especially that Judge Barbara would be an
ethical non-biased and non-CPS controlled Judge and that she would rule and
judge according to the FACTS and the TRUTH.. PLEASE PRAY HARD... many lives are
at stake and families too. The future of Texas CPS power and legistlation and
reach is also at stake..which means more lives and families at risk... Next,
petition those in office to legislate for a check and balance system of CPS like
the rest of gov't and the balance that our founding fathers intended. Absolute
power corrupts absolutely.
When the state starts filing for PERMANENT custody of a community with 400+
children, my ears perk up, as they should. However, my arguments all along have
been neither to condemn nor to justify FLDS actions (if there are any), but
rather to point out what I see as Constitutional questions in the state's
handling of this case. Now, if the state can show their evidence to justify the
filing for permanent custody, then I will be fully satisfied. Otherwise, don't
be surprised if people like me continue to get disturbed by this.
Dude, feel free to leave.
Do these same FLDS mothers mourn the expulsion of their adolescent and teenage
sons, still and forever their children, when they are kicked out of the compound
by the old men in charge? Do they publicly lash out at these old men like they
do at the government (which is actually trying to make sure their children are
safe)?I don't hear these pitiful women crying over those children removed
from their lives by FLDS leadership. A mother's heart is not that cold, is
it?Anybody noticed this irony?Why beg to have back the
children when you have already condemned and expelled other precious children
all in the name of old men needing more wives? I think you don't really care
about your children that much by example of years of throwing your children to
the proverbial wolves. The government's the least of your problems. Your
convictions are warped.If the FLDS really valued their children, we
wouldn't hear about the "Lost Boys" and these other sad cases of children who
have grown up to be successful in fleeing this cult.
The FLDS had better be looking at new digs in South America; or maybe Utah. Some
place like that. They're done in Texas.
We are a nation of hypocrites, and this "mess" in tEXas proves it. If we are
going to do this to the FLDS, what about all the predators who sell girls and
women in Las Vegas and every other city in this nation. Why are we not going in
with armored vehicles to places (escort services for one) where we know bad
stuff is happening. I mean, if we can raid the FLDS compound in tEXas, why not
an escort service or any other place like that?
Actually, I stated that the cell phone call was the reason as to why they raided
the compound, not for the removals. Don't get me wrong, the guilty should pay
the consequences. The kids should be with their mothers.
There is an argument that their society is so restrictive and distorting that
harsh action is justified.Consider the recent claims:*
FLDS leaders marrying off underage women to older men.* Young,
underage brides being raped.* These improper marriages being
consummated in their temple in Texas.* Teenage boys being driven
from the faith to provide more marriage opportunities for older men.* A denial of education.* Constant instruction that failure to
follow their leaders and their latest whims will lead to eternal damnation.* Physical abuse.* Leaders who have been convicted of aiding
and abetting rape.* A secretive, suspicion and manipulative
culture.I've spent some time among the Amish. Similar to the FLDS,
they retreat from modern society. But, they are friendly and open when
interacting to the outside world.In contrast, the FLDS are just
bizarre. The press activities by the wives yesterday was just unnerving.
Robotic. Fearful. Very, very strange.These folks have more in common
with the Branch Davidians or Jim Jones' folks in Central America than early
Mormon pioneers. This may be the case where harsh government action is
I have plenty of concerns about this case, but now it is time for the state of
Texas to put up, or shut up. If they end up putting up evidence of the
widespread abuse they claim, then they will have done their job, as well as
gained my confidence. However, if the abuse is not rampant, then they have some
serious things to answer for. In short, Texas had better be right.
One of the main problems here IS that the "outside world" calls impregnating 14
yr-olds child abuse while the spiritual beliefs of those living the "religeon"
involved do NOT.Their entire belief system involves "advancement" in the
spiritual hereafter depending on the the level or number of children produced
and brought into the "fold". As absurd as outsiders find it, those BELIEVING it
are trying to "advance" to a higher "kingdom"! The female roll is to obey or go
to hell! This sick belief system (which ALSO teaches that the women are
DEPENDANT on their "man" to "take" them to heaven) should be understood before
all these comments confuse things further........
Texas is doing what Utah has failed to do for decades... PROTECT CHILDREN. These
perverts have brainwashed and abused these kids for too long right under the
nose of Utah's Attorney General Mark Shurtleff who has chosen to ignore the
problem. All of you who think that Texas is wrong should consider
the 15 year old girls that are being raped and impregnated by 50+ year old men
and the 12-14 year old boys that are being dropped off on street corners and
This whole episode has made my heart soo heavy. Last night my family prayed for
these families who's civil rights appear to be in jeopardy. I don't claim to
agree or understand their beliefs but I wouldn't want someone removing my
children from my home...I have a large family also and this is society that
increasingly intolerant with people who don't follow the "State" sanctioned
What concerns me most is the acceptance of the general public of this type of
police(government) action. I also noticed that many of the children were taken
away in buses that are owned by a Baptist church and some a least were taken to
that church. It seems to me that the crime that the FDLS church is guilty of in
the popular mind is that they are different and therefore it would be ok to
eliminate them.Do not get me wrong. Anyone abusing children should
be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Marry girls off under 18 years
off is, in my view, child abuse.I will be holding everyone involved
in this event in the Light of Christ.
The state of Texas received an anonymous call from an alleged 16 year old
claiming that she was raped and abused. In an instant...Texas shows up with
child protection services, the Texas rangers, the police and sheriff, armored
vehicles and strategic sharp shooters...oh and did I mention they had court
signed documents all ready. And when they entered the ranch they find: women,
children and their husbands praying and singing. And we are to believe they
showed up to investigate an incidence??? Contrarily, they proceeded to take
custody of all of 410 children, some who were sick and handicapped. No
explanation provided to the loving mothers. One would think they would like to
find the "person who called" and investigate the men. It all sounds more like a
planned invasion and take-over by the great state of Texas. Welcome to America!
We have two ladies staying with us who have fled polygamy groups. The things
they've told us are not anything you'll hear these FLDS women say to the media.
They are not going to admit to underage forced marriages or oppression on
camera. I've heard,"well this is all they've ever known. They don't know any
better" If they truly didn't know this was wrong, they would have admitted to
underage marriages and not avoided the question. I strongly urge you to go the
shieldandrefuge.org. It a website for victims of polygamous groups started by a
woman who fled polygomy, Doris Hanson. Also visit hisfavoritewife.com. started
by Susan Schmidt, another woman who fled polygamy.
Thanks, englishrose.To "No":Remember:The
call is practically irrelevent right now. The removals and drastic action were
made because, once in the compound, the police found abuse. They were NOT
relying on evidence from the phone call. I frankly don't care where the call
came from. Now . . .If the call had been faked, and the
police had run into the compound and pulled everyone out just because of a call
they couldn't prove, that would be a crime. If the women and children had been
removed because of the call and not the *concrete* evidence, then then police
would have something to be ashamed about.But, as we all know, the
removals were made because of PHYSICAL evidence PHYISICALLY seen by the
for "No"Are you hoping the charges will be dropped? If theres a kid thats
13 and shes been impregnated by some 60 yr old man, while her mother sits back
and condones it, are you going to sit there and hope all charges will be
dropped?I hope they nail em to a wall. Texas is doing the best they can to
see that justice is carried out acccording to the law. This isnt about just the
girl that called in, its about child molestation and sexual perversion.
I truly hope that this is the beginning of the end of the FLDS and that the
children now in state custody will not have to go back into that compound and
lifestyle. More of their leaders should be in the same place Warren Jeffs is, in
prison. There should also be a detailed look at the finances of this cult.
Remeber Tammy Bakker and her husband? The same type of investigation and charges
should be considered for the FLDS.
An earlier comment stated: "Remember, The removals were not made because of the
call. They were made because...."This is exactly the problem. The
call appears to be a fabrication. Without the call being valid, without the
victim being found, without the named defendant being part of the case, it
matters not what evidence was gathered within the compound.CPS
officials are now trying to justify their illegal actions by pointing out these
illegal actions were approved by a judge. Illegal actions are illegal actions,
regardless of if they are perpetrated by 50 year old men and sanctioned by their
church leaders or perpetrated by CPS officers and sanctioned by a small-town
judge.Thank goodness for the concept of judicial review. At some
point this whole case will get reviewed by a responsible judge who cares about
the legal foundation of this country and then what? Odds are that at that time,
hundreds of teenage female victims will be sent back to their "spiritual
husbands".This whole situation is a tragedy. A tragedy made worse
by the failure CPS officials to get a proper search warrant.
In each state, LE can trace the position of most cell phone calls. The
capability to do this was mandated to the cell companies after 9/11. So why have
they not said if they traced the call and whether or not it actually came from
the compound? (hint: because it didn't).And if your probable cause
is a big fat lie, as it is in this case, any charges resulting from it are
likely to be dropped. Not at this local-yokel level, where the same judge who
took the kids gets to rule on whether it was proper to take the kids. But at the
federal level, which is where this will end up.
Well said Snickerdoodle. The call was probably made by someone not using her
real identity, but you can be sure that call is recorded and it came from the
snickerdoodle senses an explosion, and snickerdoodle will try to counter it.The article said that "Sarah" doesn't exist.*hold your
fire*The article ALSO said that the phone call was not the reason
for the removals. It CLEARLY stated that the removals were based on what the
Texas authorities saw upon arriving at the compound, not the phone call.I have determined that someone must have known about the abuse in the
compound (duh). He or she would have wanted to help the people, and decided the
best way to alert the authorities was to pretend to be one of the abused people
(I disagree).OR . . .It's also probable that someone
from inside the compound called to report the abuse, but posed as someone else
in order to avoid community disgrace. Once the police where there, they knew,
the investigation would roll by itself.Remember:The
removals were not made because of the call. They were made because of
*concrete* evidence found once inside the compound.
I WILL BE PRAYING FOR THESE NICE LADIES TO GET THEIR KIDS BACK AND TO WIN A BIG
LAWSUIT AGAINST THE STATE OF Texas.