Scouts may be thrifty, but some leaders are well paid

Many professional Scouters earn 6-figure salaries across the U.S.

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  • Time of year again
    Oct. 13, 2009 8:12 a.m.

    It is that time of year again. Are we getting what we're paying for?

  • Snake Oil and Thugs
    Oct. 6, 2009 10:56 a.m.

    “Oh you didn’t get your Eagle Scout? “

    If you live here in Utah, this phrase is bandied about as a form of casual discrimination inside the church. Somehow if you didn’t stick through the program in your youth despite drunken, sexually abusive ‘leaders’ you are somehow relegated to being a second-class saint.

    Just attend an Eagle Court of Honor to see what I mean. There is a seating area called the “Eagles Nest” (I guess people don’t read their history around here as to why that is a problematic name). Only Eagle Scouts past and present may sit in this area, and of course it’s the upfront best seats in the house. The peasants can sit in the back.

    I feel no desire to provide funds to an organization that creates disparity in the membership of the church. All they lack is the jackboots; they already have the superiority complex down pat.

  • bigger picture
    Aug. 3, 2009 8:02 p.m.

    all of you who are complaining about the salaries make me sick. I am 26 years old now and an eagle scout, graduated from college, and currently at an average paying job. I enjoyed scouting very much and experienced things I wouldn't have without scouting. I have seen scouting make a difference in the lives of the kids and parents. why don't all you complainers go job shadow an executive and just see how "EASY" his job is to keep all this great opportunities going for those kids who have nothing better going on in their lives. you all should be ashamed of your jealousy. you should be happy this program is still alive with all the junk that is going on in the world today. this is the escape for those who can't provide one for themselves. i will be donating whatever i can for the rest of my life. thanks to all those who still care and see the bigger picture

  • Get what we pay for...?
    Aug. 3, 2009 5:08 p.m.

    I thought the BSA was basically all volunteers- this article puts a damper on on that for me. I'm trying to accept the notion that it's worth paying the big bucks to get the best of the best scout executives, but I just can't get myself to believe that.

    I feel that there are many who would gladly volunteer to fulfill those duties who would have those needed skills, and would still put all their heart and soul into it, even though they're not being paid the big bucks for it.

    Am I wrong? Is it really that important to get the best of the best when it comes to certain skills, even though those best of the best executives might be there in large part because of the money instead of being in it for the boys?

  • Go Scouts
    Oct. 11, 2008 4:26 p.m.

    I just heard about this article from a relative who refuses to ever give to scouting again - he has 1 eagle scout, 2 in scouts, and 3 more to go. Does he expect a free ride for his boys? I have 1 eagle scout and 1 close to earning his eagle. I have been involved with scouts for 8 years, a den leader and a merit badge counselor. I love scouts - it has been great for my boys and those I have served. My girls are in activity days and they do not even do anything compared to what the boys do! Their leaders are inconsistent and meet rarely. I have done their Faith in God with them at home, like we are supposed to do. I have also worked on Duty to God with my sons, but scouting has just added a lot more. It is worth the investment and it is well run. I do choke at prices at the scout office, but it is cheaper than what many parents buy in designer clothes for kids, at it has much more meaning. Go scouts!

  • Scoutmaster
    Oct. 5, 2008 9:13 p.m.

    It is almost a year since this article was published and I came across it before starting my assignment for FOS. I think donors to FOS should be given more information about where the money goes and how it is handled - it is surprisingly hard to find.

    While I don't believe the scouter execs deserve the pay they receive, my real concern is the inconsistency in the church with scout funds. I am a scoutmaster and am not allowed to have a fund raiser for my troop and am not allowed to ask the boys to pay for any of the costs of the program. The result is that a lot of money comes out of my pocket and those of the other leaders (we frequently pay for gas, food, and other incidentals).

    In spite of my personal expenses and inability to raise money for my boys we are *required* to raise a certain amount of money for FOS. I believe the churches policy on raising money for FOS but disallowing fundraisers for local troops is inconsistent and detrimental to the boys and the leaders that run the program.

  • Values
    May 13, 2008 4:45 a.m.

    I'm sure the Scouting program does not run at full efficiency. No organization does. It takes great skill, experience and leadership ability to make an organization serving the mumber of boys and young men served by the Salt Lake Council work. Without the training programs, and facilities provided by the Council a huge vacuum would be created, which would be, in the case of most boys, filled by the exact opposite of the values stressed and taught in Scouting.
    We all need to focus on improving the way these values are taught and recieved. Is it any wonder that boys sometimes fail appreciate the values of Scouting, when their parents, neighbors and even their leaders are so negative about the organization whose whole purpose is to teach young men to live according to the priciples of the Scout Oath and the Scout Law. Oh, and by the way girls also benefit from Scouting. I want my daughter to date and marry someone who is trustworty, loyal, helpful friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. What other organization even attempts to teach these values so succinctly. What our society needs more than anything is to learn these values.

  • Just think....
    Feb. 2, 2008 9:35 a.m.

    .....if the Des News reported how much your lds church leadership makes. Would you be so appalled with that? Scouting sometimes raises many children, theaches them morals and keeps them from lives of crime etc. I think the people in charge of that responsibility should be paid well, they're taking care of your kids and teaching them things that you cannot.

  • Richard
    Feb. 2, 2008 9:04 a.m.

    The scouting program is great. As long time leader who has worked with most of the executives for many years, they work long and hard hours. They are required to put lives into their work. This great work to assist the young men to improve their skills and lives. In the long run, it is very little money from each of us to help this great work.
    So many hard feeling have been expressed in those email I have just read. To those with hard feeling, I say, please look deep into the results of the program.
    Should you not want to contribute, that is fine. Those who know the value of the program will pay more.

  • diligentdave
    Feb. 2, 2008 9:09 a.m.

    I remember giving to "Friends of Scouting" earlier during my marriage when giving $5.00 or $10.00 for me was extremely hard (but most years I gave something). Being self-employed, at that time, I was consistently $5000 - $6000 in the hole every month, doing all I could humanly do to keep things together. I'm not in that position at the moment. But, with a possible (if not actual) recession (or maybe even depression) looming, I don't know if I may not be put in that position again soon.

    I have not been called to work in the Scouting program as an adult. But, from what I have experienced in the few encounters I've had with "professional scouters", the men involved have always seemed to me like overpaid bureaucrats. And the "difference" they make or seem to make doesn't seem anywhere near commensurate with these types of salaries.

    Its time to hire one of the many fantastic volunteers at a much lesser (but still high for them) salary & boot these "fat cats".

  • Raising the Bar
    Jan. 31, 2008 8:34 a.m.

    Church leaders,

    Please develop a program that's more inline with the needs of our youth. If we're going to "raise the bar" for our youth, it's only fair that we raise the bar for their programs.

    Like many past programs, scouting is not doctrine, nor is it prescribed in the scriptures. There are many examples where the church has changed its programs to meet the changing times:

    -"Preach My Gospel" replaces discussions
    -Smaller temples
    -Perpetual education fund
    -Consolidated block schedule
    -Central building fund

    I believe scouting has lost its savor. I believe, the current scouting program teaches our boys that they can be earn rewards that they haven't earn individually. Based on personal experiences and talking with other leaders, I believe this is the case in many of our wards. What does this teach our youth for the future?

    If scouting is truly viable, it will become even more effective for Mr. Williams' boys (above) because there will be less dead-weight to carry.

    -A concerned parent

  • L. Scott Williams
    Dec. 6, 2007 11:32 a.m.

    Here's the deal. Mormon boy scouting is great for growing in the priesthood but weak on the scouting skills. Baden Powell started a program based on the scouting skills. I now have an 11-year-old boy. My local ward is weak on scouting. They're uncommitted, won't wear the uniform, and so forth. Sports is their "game". These are good people-just bad scouters. My solution, my boy and I are going to a Lions Club troop. I'm offering my experience and my son to the best troop who will say and do the scout oath,practice great camping and scouting,and will wear the uniform. Any sport parent will pay the big bucks for their kid to get into baseball or basketball. I'm going to do the same for my kid for scouts. He's going to love getting his eagle. And when he's a dad he'll be a great scouter. A lot of us parents have let too many people take our place to make memories with our kids. We all need to stand up and take back good scouting for the sake of our children.

  • Scott
    Nov. 26, 2007 11:33 a.m.

    Maybe we are shocked by salaries of scout executives because scouting is a volunteer organization. We assume since scouting is volunteer, executives that work hard for scouting are super charged volunteers, not paid professionals.

    The 2002 Olympics was a volunteer organization. We were shocked that the Olympics had well paid staff and executives.

    The LDS Church is a volunteer organization. Many would be shocked to learn that it has well paid professionals working for it.

    In addition to volunteers, volunteer organizations need professionals to direct, train and lead (just like for profit corporations). It is difficult to attract talented professionals without good compensation. Maybe it is hard to accept compensation levels of professionals in volunteer organizations because it contrasts more sharply with pay for volunteers than it does with employees in for profit counterparts.

    I donate 60+ hours per month to scouting. It is a break from my professionand allows me to give back to the community. I would not enjoy Scouting the same if it was my job.

    Rather than focusing solely on the compensation of professionals we should focus on what volunteer organizations are able to accomplish with limited resources using both talented paid professionals and unselfish volunteers.

  • Dedication
    Nov. 20, 2007 3:23 p.m.

    I have often thought that you will get out of Scouting what you put in. Money will not solve all the problems that Scouting is plagued with. For example: how do you solve the problem of The Mormon Church Leaders saying that every boy should be an Eagle Scout and then have less than 10% of the scouts parents care about scouting or what there leaders say.
    Drive on! Work hard! And follow your leaders that is if you really believe that they are inspired. If they aren't don't do scouting. If they aren't don't work towards Eagle.

  • problem
    Nov. 19, 2007 3:40 p.m.

    You people have no problem pluking down $100 to go to watch the Jazz wizzle away another season but you can't pay half of that to support the scouts? A relatively small percentage goes to the leaders.

    The only thing you'll get from the Jazz is another season without a championship. Worth $100? C'mon. Get some priorities.

  • wondering
    Nov. 19, 2007 3:32 p.m.

    None of you people have donating to FOS like you say you have.

    Its $50. What's the big deal. Don't you care about the boys?

    None of you complainers have actually done much to help scouting in other ways, so write a check so you are doing something at least.

  • Time to Sharpen the Saw
    Nov. 19, 2007 11:45 a.m.

    When much is given much is expected. Quite simply the disorganization at the scout office, the lack of service from the scout office, the disrepair found at many scout camps all need attention. I am in charge of FOS (have been for three years) and was asked for a 10% increase over last year. What am I getting for a 10% increase? Show me that repairs are being made at camps. Show me that records are being computerized. Show me that an average human can navigate the website. Then, lets talk about compensation. My employer evaluates my contributions and compensation quarterly. If I provided the same level of service, attention to detail, and organization exhibited by the scouts I wouldn't have a job. No time for crying or resigning: get out there and fix it.

  • D. Glenn
    Nov. 18, 2007 11:02 p.m.

    This past summer when my husband's unit attended a GSLC camp, he found the facilities in disrepair. So, during the FOS drive, we thought: "this will help the camps", not knowing that funds are being diverted for six figure executive salaries. It is too bad that the BSA and other nonprofit organizations don't understand that good and qualified people who are "self actualized" exist - people who do the right thing for the right reason. These types find fulfillment in "doing good" with a salary package that is sufficient. Those who command six figure incomes should be replaced!

  • Reluctant Scouter
    Nov. 18, 2007 4:10 p.m.

    This article is simply a confirmation of what I have always believed about scouting administrators. I have served in a Bishopric and done my share of begging for funds to support outrageous salaries and minimal services. My apologies to all those who faithfully donated when solicited.

  • Upset Scout Leader in Utah
    Nov. 16, 2007 11:14 a.m.

    The Executives should be willing to allocate a portion of their salaries to finance the completion of the scout camps being developed. Yet the executives claim there is not enough money to finish developing the camps! What a Crock! I WILL NEVER AGAIN participate in Freinds of Scouting to furthur pad the pockets of the OVER PAID Executives.

    GREED will have a detrimental effect on any organization. Scouting will suffer because of the GREED of the scouting executives. The very fact that scouting executives would leave Utah to seek other higher paying BSA posts throughout America proves these scouting leaders are motivated by GREED. I would love to know how much these executives personally donate annually to Friends of Scouting. It would shock us all to learn that NONE OF THEM DONATE! This is Truly Appalling!!!

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 16, 2007 1:22 a.m.

    My ward has quite a few boys, very few have fathers who are involved in their life. They seem to love scouting, and I would say are doing very well under their situations. The leaders love scouting stuff, mostly camping. I guess it has rubbed off on the boys. But dealing with all the red tape is a head ache for everybody. Camp permits, registration.

  • Best Laugh Yet
    Nov. 15, 2007 6:04 p.m.

    "Because of my PhD in Psychology..."

    are you serious???

    thanks for the great laugh.

  • Hopefully this is thoughtful
    Nov. 15, 2007 4:41 p.m.

    After reading more of these comments than I ever intended I find myself asking one simple question, Why would so many people be turned off by scouting executives making serious six figure salaries? It seems to me that many negative comments are not coming from apostate, anti-mormon, hedonists with an ax to grind.

    For what it is worth, I have served in many senior Church positions inside and outside Utah. I am an eagle scout as are all my sons. I served a mission and hold a current temple recommend. I know many of the general authorities personally and consider many close friends. My wife and I have given generously to scouting our entire married life.

    After reading this article I WILL NO LONGER DONATE TO FRIENDS OF SCOUTING and will pray that the Church leadership will take a hard look at the relationship of the Church and scouting!!! Duty to God is far superior. It seems that scouting has moved from being a volunteer movement to build men to becoming a business to raise membership and sell services, and such businesses need high priced executives.

  • YM Leader
    Nov. 15, 2007 12:41 p.m.

    My Credentials: Eagle award; (old) Duty-to-God award; YMPresident/ScoutLeader for two decades; Father of 3sons/2daughters.

    I agree with comments that the Scouting program **as carried out by the LDSChurch** is a joke.

    Something has to change. Some people recommend the Church drop Scouting and create their own program. I disagree.

    The Duty-to-God program is too weak, lacks substance, and has no real merit. The YWRecognition program is pathetic. Frankly, the Church track record shows they would be hard pressed to develop anything close to what the BSA has created unless they paid some executives as much as BSA pays them!

    Answer: the Church must stop influencing(bullying) Scouting into accommodating them and more fully embrace the Scouting programs as they were meant to be, for both young menANDyoung women!

    This means they should:

    1. Separate Scouting and YM/YWLeadership. YM/YWPresidents should support serious Scouters in the Community rather than be defacto ScoutLeaders. YM/YWLeaders should focus on ChurchDuties and quit pretending to be Scouters.

    2. Separate PriesthoodAdvancement and Scouting. Scouting should be Merit(performance)-based, not age.

    3. FOS by ScoutersONLY. Do not let Church leaders pushFOS. Church authority should NEVER be implicitly-nor-explicitly involved in fundraising for any organization except the Church itself.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 14, 2007 11:47 p.m.

    Funny how money comes into question with the aspect of development of our young men with an outside organization when money is attached to an issue. I am a faithful member but transplant from California.

    How about the price of SLC City Creek redevelopment project? BSA is small potatoes in any LDS financial picture but I am getting extremely concerned about my tithing and if it is dispersed in a charity or business venture.

    I am not originally from Utah but am LDS and am quickly becoming alarmed from the culture.

    BTW is the Deseret News and other media outlets owned by the church; I have been told this and just want to verify????. the news reporting just seems slanted and odd at points.

  • Volunteer Scouter
    Nov. 14, 2007 7:14 p.m.

    I am really upset with the lack of knowledge that some of the readers have, do they understand that there is only 2 organization that teach values one is the church and the other is the Boy Scouts of America. What kind of hours do you think these leaders put in and the time from their families and other interests. Not many of you would spend every weekend, and 3 to 4 night a week from you home, and then what about 8 to 19 weeks at a scout camp with all those boys. I think that professional scouters should be praised and given our thanks for the job they do, not run them down and worry about what they make.

  • Akela
    Nov. 14, 2007 6:08 p.m.

    I wish more truth was told into what a Scouting Executives job is. I wish all of you that complain about Paul Moore (and the other 2 scouting Execs) actually had the chance to sit down and talk to him or take a look into what a scouting executive actually does. Moore is the scouting exe (CEO of the Great Salt Lake Council). There are Directors, District Execs, Office Workers, and Camp Staff beneath him. He also deals with the tens of thousands of Volunteers, including the executive board that approved his salary (President Dalquist, the YM general President is a member of this Board). He serves 77,000 youth in GLSC. He is the executive of 8 Scout Camps. He will do whatever it takes to get the job done and that is evident by him shoveling snow so that the boys could have camp; how many CEOs would rather just pay someone to do that instead. 60 hours a week can definitely be an understatement of how much work can be put it. 35 years of experience in the field deserves a reward. We should applaud Moore for all he does in scouting to help YOUR youth.

  • Terry
    Nov. 14, 2007 5:56 p.m.

    The church cannot give up the BSA scouting program because it is a recruiting program. Because it supports BSA, it must allow member and non-member alike into it's program. It cannot discriminate. If it were to just use the YM Duty to God award, they could not bring in new members. Years ago when I worked in scouting, a non-member family were all baptized into the church through bringing their son into the scouting program. These people originally didn't want anything to do with the church. They saw how their son grew through the BSA programs. By him attending during the week, he found out about the next week's meeting. He learned about "duty to God" through Scouting. Eventually his family would attend award meetings in the ward meeting house. It showed them not to be afraid of the LDS people. I think because this article showed people what all these different salaries are, it scared them into thinking that upper management of the BSA is getting paid too much. Ask most bishops or stake Pres. what they make. Most won't tell you but most don't dig ditches either. Boys need structure or they will become bad boys.

    Nov. 14, 2007 5:51 p.m.

    I have always been in scouting and have had some good and bad experiences. My ward went on dozens of camps, most of which were loads of fun. But I've watched as men waste away their vacation time to spend with boys when they should be spending with their family. From what I've heard, the Church wants to cut down the amount of Church activites drastically because it takes away from time with the family. There's no need for too many scouting activities. A couple well planned camps a year can be just as meaningful as dozens of activities.

  • Blue star fish
    Nov. 14, 2007 5:44 p.m.

    Is this for real?

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 14, 2007 5:32 p.m.

    The article addressing Scout Leaders salaries seems to me nothing more than an attack upon Scouting, and that is deplorable. LDS leaders are paid substantial "benefits" and "expenses" from tithing and donations, and nothing is said of this, especially by the church-owned Deseret News. I recently had the privilege of researching the history of Scouting in Utah, and I was impressed by the dedication, devotion, and sacrifice made by these men and women over the years. These kinds of scurrilous articles demean and detract from the wonderful work done by the Boy Scout organization. I suggest that the editor of the Deseret News reveal his salary and benefits, and disclose the hours he devotes to his position. He would better serve to devote that time to serious news instead of character assassination. I think it is deplorable and while many will be rethinking support of Scouting because of the article, I will be rethinking my interest in the Deseret News.

  • Again
    Nov. 14, 2007 3:45 p.m.

    Trying to enter this comment for the 10th time it seems like - try looking up via google "scout execs splurge' and read an article about the misuse of funds by scout leaders nationwide recently in a swanky Florida resort designed as a 'getaway' - yeah a bunch of execs getting paid north of $200k a year really need a getaway from their overwrought jobs in the scout organization. I'm sure its a pressure cooker in there.

  • Artemis
    Nov. 14, 2007 2:10 p.m.

    Excellent Article! More articles like this should be published so people are not just blindly giving. I always wondered where the *dues* and contributions went especially since the BSA is run primarily by volunteers.

    I think I'll just take my kids camping and fishing myself and save alot of money.

    Scouts should include EVERYONE! Those of all orientations and beliefs. Why should we pay top execs to raise up a bunch of little biggots?!

  • Concerned
    Nov. 14, 2007 1:48 p.m.

    This has truly been enlightening! ARE THEY REALLY WORTH THAT MUCH??? THAT IS THE QUESTION? I have heard alot of people defending but this does not answer the question. ARE THEY REALLY WORTH THAT MUCH?? If they were to be fired tomorrow could they go and interview and be hired with a comparable salary??

  • Envy
    Nov. 14, 2007 12:57 p.m.

    Ask yourselves if you are really upset out of envy. I also think some posting negative things about eagle scouts in here are using this as a way to justify their own inabilities to earn it.

  • changes changes
    Nov. 14, 2007 12:45 p.m.

    Great article.

    It's time for change. I hope the LDS church severs its relationship with the BSA and further develops Duty to God. I feel the young men and volunteer leaders in the church will be much better served and utilized elsewhere.

    My family participated with the scouting program as scouts and volunteer leaders for a few years and we are now all cutting ties. It was not serving the needs of the boys in our area. I am happy to see our judgment validated here.

  • You get what you pay for
    Nov. 14, 2007 12:37 p.m.

    Go ahead and take away your support for organized Ward activities, including scouts and see what your kids do. Everyone knows kids that drag their heals at many organized activities because its not "cool", but better a wholesome/constructive/volunteerism activity such as scouting, than running the neighborhoods because they are "bored".

    Oh yeah - regarding salary. You get what you pay for folks. Try and plug in someone with less experience to manage an area with the largest number of scouters in the country and see what happens.

    If Utah ever wants to be taken seriously by the rest of the country, then its people had better start thinking a bit more progressively. The recent election results show this as an area of weakness for the state yet again. You cannot have your cake and eat it to.

  • DN Asked Wrong Question
    Nov. 14, 2007 12:10 p.m.

    The question should be, "How efficient is a BSA council in delivering Scouting to youth?" There are a lot of ways to assess this, including the quality and quantity of services vs. how much it takes to provide the services. This article focused on one element of cost, amounting to 3% of expenses for Great Salt Lake Council. Taking a broader view, GSLC's cost per youth served is very low.

    If my calculations are correct, Great Salt Lake Council spends about $90 per youth per year. I did a web search to find out what other councils in the western US are spending. Of 13 councils whose websites provided cost information, only two were lower at $70 and $88. In four of the councils, costs were well above $200. One council advertised a cost of $450(!) per Cub Scout or Boy Scout (but this figure excludes Venturers/Explorers; composite figure is probably about $350).

    Utah National Parks Council website shows a figure of $150 per youth, which is about the middle of the range -- not the least expensive, but certainly not the highest. I was unable to find any figures on Trapper Trails Council.

  • YBH
    Nov. 14, 2007 11:40 a.m.

    My Scout Motto:

    Any Friend of Scouting is no friend of mine.

  • Separation of church and .....
    Nov. 14, 2007 11:37 a.m.

    I too think we should separate the BSA from Church YM programs. I'm very active, I support my leaders and I hold a calling that's very high profile in the church. Unfortunately, sometimes some programs get held onto because of tradition. I've always wondered why we still have Stake Lagoon Day. Why not "Stake Utah Symphony Day" or Stake This is the Place Heritage Park Day." I believe that it is one of those things that has been overlooked and at some point someone will say, hey, we're not going to do that anymore.
    The same thing will happen with BSA. I also think one of the reasons the church hasn't pulled out is because BSA does well with some boys and they want to see it succeed. The day will come when the church will pull out and implement it's own program.

    As for the salaries, I think that it is too much. I don't think many would begrudge 100K, but over double that is too much for a non-profit. And as for FOS, it's just plain wrong to have assesments. Let the professionals of BSA increase their other fundraising activities just like other non-profits.

  • MJF
    Nov. 14, 2007 11:24 a.m.

    I find it interesting how many people call for the LDS church to start a program that will compete with BSA. Do you not realize that the same leaders who are running this program ineffectively will run the "church" program as well. Success is about the commitment and excitment of the volunteers and not out of obligation to do a "calling". Scouts should not be forced on any boy but good volunteer leaders who care about Scouting find ways to make it successful and relevant for the boys. Anyone who is "called" who is not interested and does not want to commit to making the program successful should just say NO when called.

  • Friend of Scouting
    Nov. 14, 2007 10:56 a.m.

    This is a clasic example of the newspaper "creating news." This is a non-issue and has done a terrible disservice to scouting. Whether you believe it or not, the salaries are in line and appropriate for the service rendered. I GUARANTEE that you will not find another competent person that would do the job for less money. It just will not happen. Those of you who think you are that good should be making that amount where you are. If you are not, you are not that good.

    I make nowhere near that salary but know that my salary is commensurate with what I have chosen for a career. I do not begrudge what another makes. If I want to make that sacrifice, I, too, could make that income.

    My take has been the opposite on this issue. I am grateful there is a competent manager overseeing such a vast and significant program. I feel more comfortable than ever volunteering my time and donating to this great cause.

    Those that feel otherwise are naive or covetous.

  • KMN
    Nov. 14, 2007 10:29 a.m.

    $200k per year is not that much for a CEO of any similar sized organization. If I had his responsibility, I would expect that much or more. Those who are going to cease contributing to one of the best organizations that society has created because of a CEO's salary had better start looking at where they spend the rest of their money. CEO's of ALL the organizations from which you buy the "staples of life" get paid significantly more than that. You buy video games, rent movies, consume soft drinks and particpate in other luxury activities that provide no moral outcomes. How much do you think the producers of these products make? And, how much do you spend on those items each year compared to scouting?

    Next time you rent and movie or buy a soft drink, think about what you are really getting for your money.

  • Chriss Pope
    Nov. 14, 2007 10:02 a.m.

    I spend about 20 hours a week keeping up with all the "CYA" paper work and I get paid zilch!!! It's time that the Mormon church stand up, make their own program and leave the scouts in the dust. I am offended that the church would knowingly buy into such a top heavy organization.

  • To: Good Laughs
    Nov. 14, 2007 8:59 a.m.

    You questioning my donations would be like me questioning your PhD.

    I'm a sitting COR and wrote my check for $100.00 within the last month. I begged others in the ward for over a month to participate. I collected nearly $3,000.00 for our ward which fell short of the "at least $10.00 a month from 60% of the ward" quota that was suggested.

    For you to suggest that me or others who have concerns have "probably never given" is absurd.

    By the way, my concern has less to do with the salary expose article than it does with my long-held belief that the church should not be doing the fund raising for BSA. The line of authority on the whole FOS is through the stake (because everyone knows that will increase participation). Soliciation for friends of scouting should not be done over the pulpit. BSA leaders & volunteers who would like to assist with FOS should take over this activity.

  • kip henrie
    Nov. 14, 2007 8:15 a.m.

    i grew up in a scout family. i am a scout master and this blows my mind. this is a non-profit organization. i can guarantee i could find 1000 dedicated men that would do that job for 200k. this is absolutely unconscienable that 1000s of leaders on the front lines donate their time and money to a wonderful cause while the bigwigs up top are raking in that kind of dough. this has to change, PERIOD!

  • Bob L
    Nov. 14, 2007 5:26 a.m.

    To some of us in our council in California, FOS stands for Fund Our Salaries.

  • Bob
    Nov. 14, 2007 12:09 a.m.

    You don't have the complete picture of where all of the money goes. Google 'guidestar' and go to the site. Then, type in 'boy scout salt lake city council'. Once registered for free, click on form 990 to get the rest of the financial information.

  • Joe
    Nov. 13, 2007 11:53 p.m.

    Pyramid schemes are interesting.

    Most politicians don't seek office for the money as much as power. Cheney took a pay cut.

    Motivation is interesting.

  • BSA is a company?
    Nov. 13, 2007 11:06 p.m.

    If they are going to run things like a company, with excessive executive salaries, the least they could do is modernize the program and get to where kids older than 13 like it.

    Give it up on the uni's guys. Your killing us! Basketweaving is still a merit badge? Its time you guys woke up and got a program that gets us past the 1950's. What are you giong to do when the 60 and 70 year old supporters are gone?

  • KC
    Nov. 13, 2007 10:59 p.m.

    Now I know why merit badge prices have soared in the last few years.

    How do ask that much from people for free, only to get this kind of compensation?

  • Good Laughs
    Nov. 13, 2007 10:51 p.m.

    All of these postings have brought some much needed laughter to my life. Especially, "Experienced Leader", 8:38p.m. 13 Nov. It is so funny to see so many claim to have given so much to FOS before this article and now that you read this article, you have seen the light and will no longer give. Because of my PhD in Psychology (which education qualifies me for more salary than the scout execs)I know that most of you actually never gave to FOS before, but are now using this article to justify what has always been.

  • Philanthropy and Business
    Nov. 13, 2007 9:51 p.m.

    This is a not a problem with Boy Scouts. This is a problem with corporate compensation. Why would anyone run the Scouts for 50K a year when he/she can go anywhere else and make 10 times more. We have to pay the going rate. Its unlikely that we will find a qualified philanthropist who values scouting more than money. Its even less likely that there are enough qualified philanthropists to allow every Scout council to hire their own.

  • LaVerl
    Nov. 13, 2007 9:27 p.m.

    I have been asked to collect for FOS...I should have it done by now, and I waited so long that I now have to deal with this news...could the CEO dude please donate a few sheckels to me for a bullet proof jacket rental? I'd be really grateful.

  • anonymous
    Nov. 13, 2007 8:55 p.m.

    I am a volunteer and use to work at the scout office. I am appalled that the executives make that much money. The employees make minimum wage and do all of the hard work. They never paid overtime to their employees, they simply recieved "comp time" which was unpaid time off for the time that was worked over 40 hours. To think that we worked many hours overtime and they didnt pay us for that, but instead that went to the executives makes me angry.How would you feel if you worked overtime without pay, but your boss made 6 figures? I once worked 46 hours of overtime in am month and got 3 days off without pay as compensation. (I couldnt afford to take any more)I am also a volunteer and spend countless hours and money on my boys. The Scouting program is a great program with great values, and it shouldnt be penalized, but someone needs to take a better look at the pay schedules for the actual employees. I think the scout executives work hard and need to be compensated, but when is the last time you saw one of them at the office working with the others.

  • Experienced Leader
    Nov. 13, 2007 8:38 p.m.

    I have put twelve of my own boys through the scouting program, all of which became Eagle Scouts. I was an Assistant Scoutmaster, Scoutmaster, Chairman, Bishop's Counselor, Bishop, Stake Mission President, Counselor in the Stake Presidency, Area Authority and now serve as Patriarch and after reading this article I will never give to FOS again...

    Nov. 13, 2007 8:31 p.m.

    I think it would usher in an era of hope and peace if the LDS Church dropped the BSA. I'm 17 years old and have always been happy that I decided to stop active participation before I ended up with an Eagle. Scouting is such an absurd program nowadays that I would be flat out ASHAMED to be an Eagle Scout. I have seen people excluded because of the expensive activities; I have been involved in laborious fundraisers just so my ward can pay the scouting fees. I would say that the average cost per Eagle Scout is over $600. Why are we spending so much time on these fundraisers if so few people benefit? Many troops have seen the ineffectiveness of the program and don't actively participate anyways. Why are we still paying the money to fund these greedy buffoons at the top of the BSA? Scouting does not meet the needs of the young men in the church anymore. The Duty to God program is very much more valuable and is furthermore free. Robert Baden-Powell did not start scouting to harm boys and fill greedy pockets, but this is what it is starting to do.

  • Joescout
    Nov. 13, 2007 8:20 p.m.

    I have always wondered where all that Friends of Scouting money went that I begged for from my niegbors. I knew that we never saw any of it in our troop.

    I think it is a disgrace that these men are taking a quarter of a million dollars at the local level and a million at the natinal level. What CROOKS! We are so grateful to know the truth.

  • Thoughts
    Nov. 13, 2007 7:08 p.m.

    I'm a firm believer in the principles the Scout program teaches. I worry that if the LDS church dropped scouting, it could severly weaken the organization which would hinder non-LDS troops as well. The executive compensation is higher than I would like to see. However, how many people who have posted might be willing to pay $80 for a Jazz ticket for a two hour game. Most of that money goes to the players & LHM. $80 to FOS is better spent in my opinion. I would like to see the LDS church slowly back away from scouting in a way that didn't drastically hurt the BSA organization. The Young Men's program could still do plenty of community service and camping, but bag the costly badges, charter fees, paperwork, & administrative costs, etc. I will support FOS because it's better spent there than on concert tickets or Jazz games. I wouldn't be sad to see the LDS church run their own equivalent program though.

  • Salaries should reflect service
    Nov. 13, 2007 6:43 p.m.

    I think the problem is that people feel that a person that earns 4 times the average Utahn's salary should offer something that they can't do. A surgeon or doctor can save a life. A college football coach has the rare knowledge it takes to win against 11 huge athletes.
    It has been established that professional scouters work hard. Every professional does. But **what do these guys do that I can't do?** I have more education, as much or more skill with youth (I'm a teacher) and a great knowledge of the outdoors and scouting ways. (Eagle scout and almost 2 decades of experience in scouting).
    As a scoutmaster who has tried to patch this sinking ship, I say let Duty to God take over from here.

  • Br'er Robbit
    Nov. 13, 2007 6:36 p.m.

    Well I'm surprised at the salaries but I'll probably still give the same moderate sum to FOS as always.
    I've spent decades in YM and scouting callings, and I estimate 50% of 12-14 Y.O.s like it, but 90% or more of 14 Y.O.s & older do not. Maybe BSA should end at 14 in Church. If it was truly voluntary and self-funding in the wards I think it would collapse.
    Furthermore, many BSA council leaders secretly do not like the Mormon troops and leaders because LDS leaders and youth have a greater committment to the Church and a shallower committment to BSA, and because they perceive that badges and rank advancements are often "given" and not really earned.

  • Wisc
    Nov. 13, 2007 6:17 p.m.

    Growing up, my best friend's dad was a professional scouter. He did work long hours and their family was not wealthy by any means. I have no problem with 23 professional scouters in the state making $50,000 dollars a year. That's $50,000 pre-state and federal taxes, and $50,000 pre-FICA. When you take that in to account, it's really not an excessive amount to raise a family on. And considering the fact that most of those professional scouters have probably been at it 15-20 years, I think that making that much money is okay. And as for Paul Moore making $200,000, a) he's over scouting for the ENTIRE STATE (how about we stick in someone less experienced that we can pay less, let's see how efficiently things run in the BSA then) and b) I guarantee that he works longer hours at his job than the vast majority of the the complainers posted here.

  • Accountability
    Nov. 13, 2007 5:59 p.m.

    I wonder if the key now is for those in the Scout Councils to take responsibility for the organization that they oversee.

    The next meeting of each Council needs to be open to the public and the press -- a press release needs to go out. There needs to be intense coverage and plentiful attendance by those who are not a member of the Counci. And, that needs to continue.

    It would be interesting to watch this debate play out in the light of day with voting members of the Council explaining why salaries should or should not be where they are.

    While private, Scouting is really a a public institution in the sense that is serves a broad swath of our population. If it is going to survive and thrive, its leaders need to deal head on with the issue of executive compensation, taking into account the intense views out here.

    If they merely dismiss the public outcry, then resentment will continue to build. The Scout offices are now in the spotlight. They need to embrace public scrutiny and avoid the urge to ignore the unwashed masses.

  • from Kansas
    Nov. 13, 2007 5:56 p.m.

    Yes, the scouting program is a good program, if it is run well. My brother's scout master was not a good example, and, so when my son joined the scouts, his father became heavily involved. There wasn't a single overnight activity without Dad being there. I felt I had to protect my son. I'm proud of my eagle scout son, but don't see the need of the scouting program in church. By the way, I have a Ph.D., put in more than 40 hours a week, and definitely don't make a million dollars. And I even love what I'm doing. I don't donate to the United Way, because of its overhead, and will no longer donate to FOS. My donations go directly to the church. Overhead is at a minimum there. There is no justification for these kinds of salaries.

  • Wow!!
    Nov. 13, 2007 5:35 p.m.

    My kids will never be involved in this orginization!!! This is a shocker, I couldn't believe this and wish I hadn't made that donation to the scouts because it undoubtly didn't go to the boys...

    What a shame!!!!

  • I wonder
    Nov. 13, 2007 5:07 p.m.

    I wonder how many professional scouters have numerous posts here to save their own jobs. If they feel that they can earn more elsewhere, let them! I agree wholeheartedly with those that say that Duty to God should replace the Scouting program. Scouting has not changed with the times and we now find it antiquated and out of touch with the needs of our youth.

  • John F.
    Nov. 13, 2007 5:05 p.m.

    I would like to see the LDS Church keep Scouting but negotiate with BSA to be an independent franchise. The Church would follow BSA rules and purchase all materials from BSA (badges, manuals, uniforms, etc.) like franchises do, but the Church's council would have its own leadership (perhaps volunteer but more realistically paid), do its own fund-raising, own and maintain its own camps and facilities, etc. If BSA is about the young men, an arrangement is do-able.

  • Leader Man
    Nov. 13, 2007 4:44 p.m.

    I am not sure where I come out on this whole debate. I loved Scouting as a boy and gained a great deal from it. And I know the Brethren still support Scouting in the U.S. Boys certainly need to learn goal setting and how to work hard need to have something other than just video games and music. On the other hand, in my last two Scout callings, I would say that only about one boy out of eight had any self-motivation to come to meetings or work on requirements at home. And it was like pulling teeth to get parents to follow up with boys at home. Even the bishop and the "stronger" families in the ward routinely let their boys miss meetings and camps for sports or parties or what have you (and I don't blame them--every family should decide for itself was is more important). Also, I wonder how relevant all the teaching is that relates to camping, knots, and so forth. This is no longer the world we live in. Somehow the Duty to God program needs to become preeminent and completely supplant Scouting.

  • Brian
    Nov. 13, 2007 3:54 p.m.

    I for one won't be contributing another dime to scouting for the rest of my life.

  • MK
    Nov. 13, 2007 3:10 p.m.

    The real issue (to me) is not what BSA professionals make. The real issue is the use of LDS ecclesiastical organization (stakes and wards) to collect money for a private corporation. The FOS drive material should be sent directly to the scout troop leaders not to the stake president with a troop (ward) goal attached. The same is true for IHC (Pennies By The Inch) and even Stake Lagoon Day tickets; the church organization should NOT be used to support private corporations regardless of past relationships or customs.
    Whether or not scouting is relevant to boys today is another issue that the church needs to address...and soon.

  • Past Leader
    Nov. 13, 2007 2:54 p.m.

    As a former leader within the LDS church I always found it very hard to always take the Scouting line from the leaders of the church. I think something that meets the resistence that scouting has overall on the ground floor, with common members of the church for so long, shows that either something is very fundimentally wrong with the church's un-dieing support of this corporation, OR we as members are going to be weeded out as non-believers. I thend to think it is the former. But I don't ever see the church leadership backing away from scouts so we best just bear the trial.

  • Comments?
    Nov. 13, 2007 2:46 p.m.

    No comments since 8:27 a.m.? Mine haven't shown up yet and were not abusive, offensive, off-topic or misrepresentative. What's up?

  • $ Big Money $
    Nov. 13, 2007 2:34 p.m.

    FOS has never been to collect $ for the scouts in your neighborhood (Ward). It's always been for the District & Council leadership.

    If you are opposed to FOS - make a donation directly to your local scouts. Mormons can fill out the "other" field on their Tithing slip and specify Scouts (Deacons), Varsity (Teachers) or Venture (Priests).

  • Money, money, money
    Nov. 13, 2007 2:30 p.m.

    Utahns are cheap. Create it as an MLM and watch it grow!! Sorry, you won't get money back if you contribute to FOS or get others to contribute, just a well run program that continues to improve! Thank you Mr. Moore!

  • To Steve at 12:24 am
    Nov. 13, 2007 2:25 p.m.

    You wrote:

    "The level of compensation exceeds what is available in most private corporations of similar size."

    My friend, you apparently have not idea how much money people make. Private organizations half the size of BSA pay their top executives significantly more than what this guy makes.

    Non-profit org's need top talent, too. This man, for all he does, is largely under paid.

  • Dedicated Scouter
    Nov. 13, 2007 2:19 p.m.

    I've been in Scouting for years, earned my Eagle, served as Asst Scoutmaster and then Scoutmaster, and am currently the Webelos leader. I have many fond memories of scouting, however, I never liked FOS because of how it's handled by the wards and stakes. I've already paid my donation but next year plan on giving it to the ward troop instead. I have never seen one benefit come back to the boys and that's where it's needed the most. By the way, I have three boys, the oldest of which is in my Webelos den. I hope all three will eventually earn their Eagles.

    One last point, I've compared the advancment requirements and they are harder now than 23 years ago when I earned my Eagle.

  • CKB
    Nov. 13, 2007 2:12 p.m.

    Hey "Zion Prospereth", so the head BYU football coach makes what? He is responsible for putting a football program together which will fill the 64,500 seat in Lavell Edwards Stadium. If it weren't for the football program you could kiss goodbye most all of the other athletic programs at BYU, and there could be other financial benefits that we don't know about. So basically the BYU coach is a fund raiser for other programs! The scouting program just sucks money in for their OWN purposes.

    And for Friends of Scouting...I have just LOVED how we are "unofficially assigned" a certain dollar figure but can't use a fund raising activity to raise it. My old Bishop used to say "if they are going to give me an unoffical allotment then we will have an unoffical fund raiser to raise the money."

    I understand if this scout official was paid 80-100K but that is it!

  • Fundraiser
    Nov. 13, 2007 2:06 p.m.

    My comment didn't appear so I'll rewrite it in a different way: I once commented to my bishop that as his second counselor it saddened me that my standing in the priesthood hinged upon my ability to raise funds for the Boy Scouts of America.

  • Curious
    Nov. 13, 2007 1:59 p.m.

    The people who are mormon and posting your thoughts, can you see how hypocritcal you are? Is this why the missionaries have been telling me that the church is true but the members in it aren't? From the outside looking in, your church has so many impressive factors from a logical stand point. And I love how I feel when I am around some of your members. Frankly, the reaction to this article tells me there are those who are not as convinced as I am that there is good in the mormon church. If these posts are any indication of the dedication of your church's belief's, the church is in trouble. My next meeting with the missionaries will be interesting...

  • Scouter
    Nov. 13, 2007 1:52 p.m.

    Scout official's HAVE to be paid well. Do you have any idea how many UNIFORMS those guys have to buy? ;-)

  • Saddenend
    Nov. 13, 2007 1:48 p.m.

    How well I remember the day over a decade a go when I was serving as 2nd Counselor to the bishop. The stake's demands to fulfill the FOS quota were bordering on harshness. I had just done my second or third round of trying to squeeze the required dollars from the members. I said to him this: "It's a sad day when my standing as a bearer of the Melchizedek Priesthood hinges upon my ability to raise funds for the Boy Scouts of America." There's just got to be a better way to make this work.

  • Reader
    Nov. 13, 2007 1:41 p.m.

    None of the comments newer than 6:55 am are showing up.

  • RGK
    Nov. 13, 2007 1:11 p.m.

    Why are scout executives paid such large salaries? I know that they put in a lot time, but so do I in my job plus I put in time as a local non-paid volunteer scout leader. Why am I not financially compensated for this work when I could be earning more in my civilian job? The reason is because I feel a purpose that I am helping my family and community. For some reason it appears that the scout executives have lost sight of working for a higher purpose. Most people are okay with scout executives earing a good salary, but what I read in this article was outlandish and showed a total lack of understanding and oversight from those that should be in charge of this fine program.

    As for me I will have future doubts about donating again for Friends for Scouting and of supporting this well meaning program as a volunteer.

  • tired
    Nov. 13, 2007 1:09 p.m.

    Iam tired of always hearing that we should support scouts as a church and then getting bent over time and again be it FOS, paying $3.00 for a merit badge, or going on a guilt trip because I wont be scout master again for the 3rd time. If the berthern are so concerned about our youth, why not go with the "duty to God" program, that has little overhead and is actually inspired. My guess is that the BSA will just hand out a bunch more "silver antelopes" to some church brass and this thing will just blow over.

  • NeverAnEagle
    Nov. 13, 2007 12:47 p.m.

    I'm throwing my voice in with all the outrage. Expensive and a waste of time, its just about time they shut Boy Scouts down. I remember being forced to join as a kid too, and having to go to my "meetings" while my friends were all experimenting with narcotics under the high school bridge. So sadly I can say because of Scouting I never used drugs. Down with Moore! Down with Scouting! Up with X-box & narcotics!

  • A Reluctant BSA Supporter
    Nov. 13, 2007 12:43 p.m.

    Anonymous, I can tell you how we can support Scouting without supporting Friends of Scouting. We do it by donating our time, money and resources into a program even though we may not particularly like it. We accept the callings and then spend our own money on the boys behalf where we know 100% of it is going directly to the boys. We pay money to support our local troop activities and pay for our childrens activities directly out of our own pockets and do not rely upon general fund for our boys support. The only reason we do Scouting in our family is because it is part of the LDS program in the United States. When we lived in Venezuela we did not participate in scouting because it is not part of the LDS program there. I can tell by this board that there is some huge confusion between the Gospel and Scouting. I can assure you I can get a temple recommend and attend the temple with a clear conscious if I do not buy scout popcorn or donate money to FOS.

  • A Reluctant BSA Supporter
    Nov. 13, 2007 12:26 p.m.

    The big difference in the LDS troops and non-LDS troops is the desire to be there. If only those boys and parents who want to participate in Scouting are there and they are committing the time and money for the activities, than it works and you may feel that you are getting your moneys worth by paying the high salaries. The difference in the Church is people are called as leaders and they may not even like the program to begin with. In addition, you have boys that have no interest in the program that do not want to be there. I am an Eagle Scout and I hated the Scouting part of the program the whole time I was in it. All my merit badges/patches are still stapled to the cards they came on and I will NOT put on my resume that I am an Eagle. Now I am called to work in a program that I did not like when I was a youth and I still do not like it. Because I have a testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ does not mean I have a testimony of Scouting.

  • Bottom line
    Nov. 13, 2007 12:23 p.m.

    I have never liked scouting. True. I have donated every year. True. I will NOT be doing it anymore. True. This is my personal decision. I am fed up with elitists. I am fed up with the growing gap between the haves and have nots. I will continue to feel this way until the trends that are destroying the middle class are reversed. I am angry. No amount of arm twisting using "church persuasion" is going to change my opinion. I have made observations and made my own mind up. I do not blindly follow. I never have.

  • What are they doing?
    Nov. 13, 2007 12:16 p.m.

    The Council needs be more transparent. I often thought that atleast a part SME/FOS funds were put into an endowment or trust. For as long as we have been doing SME/FOS the council could have a sizable endowment with which to finance its activlities by simply setting aside a portion of SME/FOS or making people aware that they can donate to the fund.
    The major problem with scouting is that it is lead by lifelong professional Scouters. I am not sure what Mr. Moore's bachlors degree is in but judging from his age and time with the scouts he does't appear to have any real business expirence outside the scouting program. Considerable expirence outside the BSA should be mandatory in order to hold such a high position with in the BSA. It allows for new ideas to be brought in to the organization and provides perspective with which to make good managment/financial decisions. Sadly it appears that the SLC Council has lacked practicle business expertise and the vision to see the great goods it might have done had they really been "prepared".

  • Bryan P
    Nov. 13, 2007 12:04 p.m.

    Where did the author learn statistics? I am not sure what is scarier; the bad comparisons made in the article or the fact that so many people in the threads above were swayed by them.


    The highest paid professionals in Utah are OB/GYNs. However, to compare their AVERAGE compensation with the compensation of the TOP executive in an organization is ridiculous. For those who failed statistics (as the author must have), an average (also called mean) is found by adding up all the salaries and dividing by the total number in the group. Unless every single OB/GYN earns an average salary, this means that some earn MORE than average. My guess is that some earn a LOT more!

    I have an idea, compare the average salary of all scout professionals in a district with the highest paid OB/GYN. What, does this sound ridiculous?

    For that matter, compare the average salary of scout professionals with the AVERAGE salary of any profession requiring a college degree.

  • Bryan P
    Nov. 13, 2007 11:50 a.m.

    I know all of the local scouting professionals in my community personally. They are dedicated to improving Scouting in meaningful ways. These are people who devote on average 60-80 hours per week including evenings, weekends, etc. leaving their families at home. They work on salary (i.e., they dont get paid more for working longer hours they dont get overtime) in dingy offices on used office furniture. They consider eating at Wendys on a business trip excessive. These are NOT people who are in Scouting to get rich.

    Several of the professionals I know have put in decades to Scouting service; slogging it out year after year dealing with whiny Scout leaders who refuse to attend the training meetings they put together or participate in the activities they help organize. Some of these professionals have advanced degrees and have walked away from careers where they should be earning 2-3 times what they are paid. Did they do this to get rich off of the contributions made by others? Hardly! They did it, and do it, to make a difference in the lives of young people.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 13, 2007 11:49 a.m.

    I think its important for them to pay the executives that much. It brings continuity to the process. Also, I would want to be paid that much if I had to where those green pants as part of my full-time work.

  • Roundhouse II
    Nov. 13, 2007 11:38 a.m.

    I could tell they were not Scouts but when they could not get a fire started to warm themselves in humid weather, I always asked if they wanted this Scout to help them start the fire:) Everyone wants to change Scouting but it usually comes from those who do not understand it or have the vision of Scouting. Pres Hinckley said that our boys need to learn knots be/c there are so many knots being unraveled in our society and they don't know how to tie or keep the knot tied. Priesthood, Gospel, and Scouting go hand in hand. Maybe your experience in scouting doesn't fit your Mormon gospel myth but if you keep trying with an open heart it will be revealed to you. Comparing teachers to scouting is ludicrous. TEachers are paid through forced monies (taxes) and FOS is voluntary. It proves again that when people donate to good causes, the money multiplies. When people are forced to pay (taxes) for gov't things, their desire to donate drops. And don't talk about accountability. How many millions were just spent by teachers unions to defeat vouchers and you cry about your pay when your union has $ to (continued)

  • Question to Deseret News
    Nov. 13, 2007 11:40 a.m.

    Why are no comments after 8:27 a.m. this morning coming up??? The number of comments keeps increasing, but when you click on the link, it doesn't show the last several at least!

  • Bryan P
    Nov. 13, 2007 11:38 a.m.

    Why dont we talk for a moment about the source of funds in a council. In most councils FOS is a small portion (25% or less) of the total revenues used for the councils operating budget. Much of the average councils revenue comes from endowment earnings (interest on investments). Many councils are supported heavily by sales Popcorn.

    In Utah, people have been too cheap to give to the endowment fund. While the UNPC is the largest council in membership and units, its endowment fund is the smallest in the country! People would rather pay FOS than make a meaningful donation that will last into perpetuity.

    We also have a problem with selling Popcorn. For every dollar of popcorn sales, Trails End Popcorn gives 1/3 to the unit and 1/3 to the council. Many councils sell hundreds of thousands of dollars of popcorn a year representing as much as 50% or more of their operating budget. In Utah, we are looking at less than 3% of operating budget from popcorn sales. Our units would rather pay for Scouting out of budget funds and FOS.

    Would we be whining about executive salaries if only a small % came from FOS?

  • Roundhouse I
    Nov. 13, 2007 11:30 a.m.

    I am so grateful for LDS leaders who have vision, the Spirit, and don't listen to the barking dog as the wagon rolls forward. Do you honestly think Thomas Monson who has sat on National BSA boards for so many years didn't know about these salaries? Grow up. At last years scout camp, I was so grateful for the volunteers and the paid staff. They did so much for my boys that my ward would never have been able to do in its present non-volunteer attitude state. Obviously many are not learning what Scouting is or the skills required to run it or the skills learned by both leaders, parents and boys. I taught Communications MBadge this last week, Personal Management the week before, and sat in on others. We are going to visit a local city council meeting this week. I will have Scoutmaster conferences coming up followed by Boards of REview. What changes needed to take place to account for the changing needs? MBadges have changed almost yearly to be updated with computers, job skills, etc. WHile in the US Army, I had many seargents tell me that the Army was not Scouts. By their language (continuted)

  • Will support scouting ... but
    Nov. 13, 2007 10:54 a.m.

    Because scouting is still endorsed by the Church, I will continue to support it. I will support the local troop to the best of my ability, and continue to participate in their fund-raising activites, etc.
    My son hated scouting, but participated because otherwise there would have been little or no association with other members in our mission field area. He had excellent men leading him that he respected, admired and still does. They are still his friends today.

    The GA's support scouting, but to my knowledge they have never made it a good membership requirement, or a commandment, that we donate to FOS (we don't have that in our area). The only amount we are required to donate in order to receive a temple recommend is a full tithing! The rest, Fast Offering, Humanitarian fund, missionary fund, Perpetual Education Fund, local, community and national charities etc. are purely voluntary, and will bring with them their own rewards.

    No member should be told they are not supporting their Church leaders by not donating to FOS!!! Does the Church 'punish' the Bishops/Stake Presidents who do not make their quota? Who provides the pressure to fill this amount?

  • Scouting Supporter
    Nov. 13, 2007 10:52 a.m.

    I have been in Scouting for 28 years. It is a great organization and my boys have benefitted greatly from Scouting.
    I must admit having a husband working 60 - 90 hours a week for 24 years and not receiving any compensation but a layoff does make Paul Moore's salary way off base. My husband was making under minimum wage for his time. Pay our council executives what they are worth and not misuse the funds to pay the top end. If he can make better money elsewhere, then I feel he needs to go.

    I know a GSLC secretary was paid a whopping $5 hour when she retired and would have been paid double that amount in corporate America. What makes his job more special than someone who does all the work? If this was the corporate world great, but this is a non-profit organization and relies on donations from outside sources. I am not pleased with how our hard earned money is being spent. I'm totally for Scouting, but it needs some URGENT attention and evaluation. If Marty Latimer would have been paid that amount he never would have left. GSLC you need to FIX this problem!!

  • Hey, Dave
    Nov. 13, 2007 10:49 a.m.

    When I grow up, I want to be as cool as you.

    How did you become so condescending?

    What's your secret, man???

  • Ron
    Nov. 13, 2007 10:36 a.m.

    You've just got my last donation to FOS. Also the United way uses in excess of 70% of the moneys raised to fatten someone's pocket book.

  • John Doe
    Nov. 13, 2007 10:33 a.m.

    There is little doubt that executives of BSA are highly compensated, as are executives in many different non-profit organizations ranging from Churches to charities.

    And there is an ongoing debate about the ethics of such disproportionate compensation - the huge gap between the compensation of those "in the trenches" and those in the executive offices.

    Forbes reported in 2004, "The heads of America's 500 biggest companies received an aggregate 54% pay raise last year. As a group, their total compensation amounted to $5.1 billion, versus $3.3 billion in fiscal 2003."

    This gap is a measure of social stratification and instability as the gap between the rich and the poor increases to levels that begin to stimulate disenfranchisement among lower classes, calls for reform, rebellion, and ultimately revolution.

    Most Christians generally, and active LDS in particular, understand that this fundamental human inequality is not consistent with the doctrines of Jesus. The repugnance they feel when reading about overpaid Scout leaders is a trustworthy ethical sensibility that should not be ignored. As a "lower class" of society, we must be ever vigilant in monitoring those in (economic & organizational) power over us to ensure human equality is not lost.

  • To volunteer:
    Nov. 13, 2007 10:17 a.m.

    Are your non-lds unit parents paying tithing and "generous" offerings? Supporting a missionary? Maybe the well gets a little dry sometimes. Scouting is a worthy cause. There are hundreds of other worthy causes out there that could also use support.

    The district camp comments above struck a chord. I've only been to a couple of week-long events, but I never saw an adult leader. The place was run by kids, with maybe a mid-20s older kid in charge. I don't have a problem with scouting, but let it be for those who WANT to be involved.

  • Turned Off
    Nov. 13, 2007 10:16 a.m.

    Like several others, I too was a scout master for 3 years and am still involved in our local group. I will be thinking very hard come next fall when the money plate gets handed out. There are many other organizations that I am associated with that could use that money as well. The amount being paid is way too much given all the people that have to really sacrafice to make scouting work.

  • Sure, let's unionize
    Nov. 13, 2007 10:07 a.m.

    Those saying the ward CORs should vote and demand this and that. HA! Are you serious? As a bishopric counselor, the COR is high enough on the food chain that he can put a guilt trip on 10-15 other people in the ward to help him beg for money, and he is someone that most ward members will cough up money for when he appears on your doorstep. Other than that, he exists to take pressure off the bishop and to support the stake leaders. I can imagine the phone call from the stake to the bishop if a COR started agitating. "What the HECK is he doing? Doesn't he know he is letting us down?" Yeah. Good luck with that.

  • Back to basics
    Nov. 13, 2007 10:02 a.m.

    Nice to see people defend scoutism. But the basic issue here is not the possible value of that program, but the outrageous salaries paid, while the money comes from donations under pressure.

    Next, from a worldwide perspective, the Church should not support any more the boy scouts program, which anyway is mainly limited to the U.S. We need the same, strong, worldwide Mormon program for both boys and girls in all countries. If some parents still want scouting for their children, or weekly gymnastics, or foreign language clubs, or whatever, all right, but not tied to the Church.

  • FOS Fundamentally Wrong
    Nov. 13, 2007 10:02 a.m.

    Whether you like the scouting program or not (I do by the way), I think it is wrong for LDS wards to take on the responsibility of fund raising. It should be the BSA.

    I'm not here to bash scouting. I think it's both a worthy and useful cause. For the past 12 years my wife and I have been heavily involved as volunteers in two states where we've lived. I have glady given of my time and resources to support scouting. I've used my vacation days for years for scout camps etc. I've absorbed costs personally because I knew there was no ward budget to pay for them.

    I have no regrets. It's been done for the boys in my wards including my own sons. I'll continue to volunteer.

    However, Friends Of Scouting doesn't and never has felt right to me. I think it's wrong for our bishops to plead for support over the pulpit (I've done the pleading from the pulpit by the way). I think most people who give think the money stays in the ward - it doesn't.

    BSA should take over this activity. It's the right thing to do. I'm convinced of that.

  • To local volunteer:
    Nov. 13, 2007 9:55 a.m.

    Your comment is a powerful argument for separating LDS sponsorship from the BSA. Let local units of committed volunteers and boys do it. I couldn't agree more. Let's take the priesthood authority compunction out of the equation. All in favor?

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 13, 2007 9:48 a.m.

    Why can't the boys work for their funds. Wouldn't that be a great way to teach them the scouting ideals. My father never allowed us to participate in fund raisers. However, from age 12 and up, we were expected to mow lawns in the summer, rake leaves in the fall and shovel walks in the winter. Hard work will create more "character" than any program. At age 14 I was a dishwasher at a restaurant near Cottonwood mall. I rode my bike to and from work, and I lived 5 miles away. My brother did the same. Neither of us became Eagle Scouts, but we learned a lot more from the value of hard work our father taught. And now as an employer, I'd much rather have a kid that can work, than a kid who has merit badges.

    I find it ironic that the church worked to clear out panhandlers from downtown, but has no problem sending them around my neighborhood.

  • grundle
    Nov. 13, 2007 9:34 a.m.

    I think that we should be careful not to equate support for scouting with sustaining our LDS Church leaders...They are not the same.

    The church has changed it's programs many times to try and fit the needs of the members at the time. If Scouting fails to fill the needs then the LDS Church leaders will no doubt modify or abandon the program. This would leave the "Scouting is an inspired program" crowd in the cold. (...or maybe the opinion that our leaders are uninspired?)

    Also...I do not believe that having an opinion concerning the BSA (pro or con) constitutes apostasy. I have an opinion that our chapels are too bland and our meetings are boring and un-engaging. I still go and still have a conviction that I am in the right place.

    (Couldn't we at least have a picture of Christ in our chapel?)

  • arc
    Nov. 13, 2007 9:26 a.m.

    "The voting membership of a Boy Scout Council, including SLC, is composed of "Chartered Organization Representatives", of which each ward or Stake has at least one. If these people actually go to meetings and vote, they decide the direction and budget and everything else about the local Council, including the membership of the Executive Committee and other groups that make salary recommendations."

    I would guess that most of the COR's don't go to the meeting. If they do next year, I hope they cut Paul's salary in 1/2. If we loose him fine. Scouting is worth the money. But we are waisting it with salaries over $100k.

  • To Scouter Man and Dad
    Nov. 13, 2007 9:12 a.m.

    It's wonderful that your boy has been able to get scholarships to college, but...

    it seems like your attribution of that to scouting might be a little stretch.

    How about the role of his parents? This is a big thing for you and your boy and surely you had some part in it.

    How about the role of genetics? A child with trisomy 21 (for example), helped through the scouting program, will still not benefit in the same way.

    How about the role of the school he went to, whether it was public, private, or homeschool? Surely the college took his grades and classes into account.

    I agree that scouting, applied properly can result in a huge net benefit to a boy. But it is just one factor. And I believe the role of money in scouting today could be looked at separately from the actual historical theory of scouting.

  • Laman & Lemuel
    Nov. 13, 2007 9:10 a.m.

    "Hey Laman, can you believe Nephi wants us to tear ourselves away from our big screen TVs, fancy cars, and big houses - and write a $50 check once per year to support Scouting? I know our dad (the prophet) asked us to do it, but this is ridiculous. Let's go tie Nephi to a tree and smite him with a rod for a while, OK?"

    Murmur, murmur, murmur, murmur, murmur....

  • Suzanne B.
    Nov. 13, 2007 9:05 a.m.

    I don't understand why the church uses the Scout program the way it is currently run. There are limited funds for all other organizations so that all the money can be dumped into Scouting, and then we are still bugged about fundraisers and have to buy the costly books,uniforms, etc. for our boys. Surely the church can come up with a better program that wouldn't be costly, just as is done for other church programs. Those who wish to be involved in Scouting can do it on a community level just like other extra-curricular activities and we can stop using church funds and sponsorship. That is sacred money and dedicated time that we put into our callings. It just doesn't feel right. It seems to go against how our church is normally run.

  • LDS Scouter in non-LDS Troop
    Nov. 13, 2007 9:02 a.m.

    The reason LDS Scouting units are dysfunctional is because there is great disinterest by LDS members. Look at successful LDS units and you see leaders/families that support Scouting. If there is no support or interest, then the program stinks. That's why my son and I are in a non-LDS unit. It functions well because folks want to be there, get the necessary support, and we pay our $140 to FoS because we see the program for what it is.

    Yes, these senior execs are making big bucks. Think how much experience they have, how many years they've been in Scouting. In a typical company, who makes the big bucks? Is it the new guy who has been there a couple years, or the guy with 20-30 years?

    The DesNews does a fine job of sensationalizing this pay issue. Their goal is to sell product, and big stories is how they do it. They don't tell you how FoS is broken out, or the breakout of donations to other charities like the United Way or ARC. Pay is only one part of the FoS picture. Do some research into the whole picture and learn where the money goes, then complain.

  • BigHealey
    Nov. 13, 2007 8:48 a.m.

    If our highly paid scout leaders are performing plumbing, garbage or snow removal duties, they are not the managers that should be making 6 figure salaries. While this was said to indicate how committed they are to the program, it also shows that they have a broken organization. If they are the great managers that they seem to think they are, we should have a council that is efficient and well run. Anyone who has had to register scouts, advance scouts, purchase awards for scouts or participate in scout sponsored camps realize this is not the case. I have always overlooked this believing that they were doing the best they can on very limited resources. It is now clear that they have the resources; they are just not going to the scouts, but going to the leaders instead. This is a poor use of trusted funds. I have been mislead. You cannot continue to ask for more money until you can demonstrate that you have been a good steward over the money you have previously received. Shame on the professional scouter as they try to justify these ridiculous salaries and the poor service we have received in return.

  • Big Macs
    Nov. 13, 2007 8:41 a.m.

    I feel badly for those who volunteer their time, but I have never been asked for as little as 2 Big Macs per month (much more).

    Until these salaries get in line, I'd rather have my 2 Big Macs.

  • BigHealey
    Nov. 13, 2007 8:41 a.m.

    This should be extremely embarrassing for the executives of the scouting program. I am applauded by the ridiculous salaries being paid to scout executives. I am also sadden by the message this sends to other volunteers and the scouts themselves. This is a classic example of leaders losing sight of the very goal they are trying to foster. Look at the Scout law. A Scout is thrifty, looks like they failed on that one. A scout is Trustworthy, the leaders may be technically trustworthy they are certainly are not very forthright in their disclosures. We have been told for years that professional scouters are paid minimal salaries. This comes pretty close to being dishonest to me. A scout is Loyal, try selling that to the scout master who is working full-time to feed his family and giving hours and hours every week and vacation time to take boys on scout camps. We cannot have leaders saying one thing and living another. That is what is happening today and unless it is corrected it will cause the entire program to collapse. The values of scouting are self evident, however the organization is broken. Please correct it before it is completely irrelevant.

  • Tommy in Texas
    Nov. 13, 2007 8:36 a.m.

    My first impression of the negative comments is that they are all from a bunch of self-righteous and I dare say sacriligious LDS members who are acting like a bunch of Pharisees. They have no true understanding of what is taught in Scouting. And for those who make the excuse that they didn't get much out of it as a youth, I'd venture to say they didn't put much into it. As an Eagle Scout, Scouter, and current Priesthood Leader, I can tell you first hand that the experiences that these boys can have is worth every bit of the money we spend on it. The amount of financial support that LDS units provide to the councils is such a small percentage of the whole that those who said they would no longer contribute should be ashamed of themselves. Do the words "follow the Prophet" mean nothing to any of you anymore? He and the rest of the brethren support Scouting and that is the reason why it is a part of mutual. For those of you that have forgotten that, go back and read Amos 3:7 and D&C 1:38. We haven't forgotten that in the "mission field".

  • Mark
    Nov. 13, 2007 8:27 a.m.

    @a local volunteer:
    Yeah, it's about money, remember that the money is being raised from those who can barely afford it.

    The big issue is the absolute hypocrisy of Scouting. We teach the boys to "pay their own way", but the executives (with our help, through FOS) are scamming little old widows who want to help the boys.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 13, 2007 8:18 a.m.

    How can you support scouting without supporting friends of scouting? Where is the money supposed to come from? Most of the guys who make $50,000 have probably been there at least 15 or 20 years, and $50,000 is not very much money to provide for a family on. And big deal, the guy over scouting for the ENTIRE STATE makes $200,000. If you want the best people to run your programs, you've got to be willing to pay for it, which is one reason why Utah has such a hard time holding on to good teachers. Get rid of scouting and you're going to have a hard time finding a good program to take its place.

  • Dave
    Nov. 13, 2007 8:12 a.m.

    To SE Idaho:

    I audited the GAs for several years, so I'm a little more informed about their compensation packages then the fabled few.

    The ignorant masses here are falling for the old envy game socialists have played for years. The Deseret News wants you to vote with them next election for their favorite socialist and the easiest (and oldest) way to get the public upset is with the unfairness of higher pay.

    See today's article on college presidents' pay. Think.

    They want Joe Sixpack (part of the ignorant masses--those who don't think, but go along with the others) to say it's unfair for someone else to be making more than him--and vote with those who promise more taxes on the wealthy and more welfare for the poor.

    That's the agenda. You fell for it. Thus, my reference to your being ignorant.

    Have a good Bolshevik day.

  • RE:Scouting Supporter
    Nov. 13, 2007 8:02 a.m.

    Scouting was not built on prophecy. It is a secular program that the churh aligned with. Nothing more.

    The lord has never asked me nor commanded me to give to the FOS.

    As patriarch of my family, after much prayer and fasting, I have recieved inspiration that with being blessed with just two daughters, I am to no longer give to FOS (as I HAVE been doing because I "thought" it helped the boys in the ward) and will spend it on my daughters ballet and soccer, which will help them build grace and character.

    Sorry FOS, this giver has been inspired another direction, and the words of the lord's prophets back me up, as they have made me patriarch over my family.

    I hope you ("Scouting Supporter 12:11 a.m.) are willing to accept the words of the lord's prophet and back me and others as we continue to pray for and recieve guidance for our families.

  • Scouting and the church
    Nov. 13, 2007 7:58 a.m.

    I have lived in many places thoughout the US and have seen the scouting program in mant areas, as well as having my sons in scouts.

    First, scouting isn't for everyone! However the Church's programs should be. The focus should be on the child, not the program. (Read Conf talk by Elder Oaks). When the program is failing more boys than it is helping, its time to get rid of the program, scale it back so that only those who want it can have it, and develop something that will work.
    When a ward uses compusion and guilt to force boys (or their fathers)into scouting then they are WRONG, no matter how noble they think of their cause.

    Also, for those of you who start quoting prophets and apostles, be careful who and how you quote it! These men are only expressing their opinions, as scouting has NEVER been included as a revelation to be put in the D&C nor is it a requirement for salvation.

  • To Bonnie at 720 pm 11-12
    Nov. 13, 2007 7:44 a.m.

    Bonnie said: "I think that people who don't give to FOS are plain CHEAP.... People who don't give money to charity are just covetous and selfish"

    I say: "I choose which charities I support. I resent you saying that my choice about supporting FOS (one of thousands of "charities" in the USA) makes me covetous and selfish. If this is the mindset of professional scouters and their families (which you appear to be), it's no wonder that so much anger flared up when the DMN provoked this discussion."

    Here's my solution for the issue of people being pressured into supporting FOS: don't ask for donations anymore. Make the boy scouts work for any money the program receives. And I mean work (washing cars, mowing lawns, etc.), not selling popcorn. This is more in line with the original goals of the scouts. "A Scout works to pay his way and to help others" (from the Scouting Law).

    And for Bonnie: "A Scout is a friend to all....He respects those with ideas and customs other than his own."

    (Even those who don't like FOS?)

    I doubt we need to scrap BSA but how about a good close look at FOS?

  • Why not pull out
    Nov. 13, 2007 7:40 a.m.

    let the BSA be what they want to be without the financial pressure of making the LDS Church happy (as complained by one professional scouter in this post).

    At the tiem for the Gay Scoutmaster Supreme Court Case, I was living in Southern California and an article came out in the paper saying all the pressure of keeping the gay scoutmaster was coming from the LDS Church. Otherwise, the case would have been settled and there would have been gay scoutmasters in the BSA.

    The days of Fred MacMurray and "Follw Me Boys" are gone and the days of the scouts becoming an inclusive liberal organization are coming soon (when all of the LDS monies dry up, the high-paid executives will look to other sources for their checks,(heaven fobid they give up the Escalades and the BSA Bling), and scouting will be sold to the highest bidder (sorta as it is done now).

    I see a whole new emergence of the BSA ober the next few years, and the sad thing is the greed to the "thrifty" organization brought it all down.

    Thanks again to the DMN for their illuminating article. Now we have informed choice about FOS.

  • Another Scouting Supporter
    Nov. 13, 2007 7:39 a.m.

    As long as the Church uses the Scouting program for the Young Men, it should be supported.

    But does supporting and funding our local scout troops also include the FOS? I believe that President Hinckley said at one point that "quotas" for FOS were not to be made.

    Over and above tithing and fast offering, ALL other contributions - Humanitarian fund, Missionary fund, etc. are purely voluntary and not mandatory, or a requirement of being a faithful Church member! Not contributing to FOS does not mean we do not support or sustain our Church leaders!

    A great many people donate land, properties and money to BSA. Many others leave endowments, or legacies in their wills. Income from investment of these funds could be used to compensate Professional Scouters. I do not know enough to comment on whether or not they deserve their salaries. I can see where the perception that FOS funds being collected to pay these salaries could be very upsetting, particularly where Bishops, Counselors, Scoutmasters, and the Scouts are going out and pressuring, lightly or not, everyone in the ward to donate.

  • A local volunteer
    Nov. 13, 2007 6:55 a.m.

    All this about money. As a district volunteer who has done FOS, I see budgets, I see FOS directly benefiting boys and do not begrudge salaries.
    Why difference in attitudes towards FOS? Our goals are the same per boy take total budget, divide by total boys to determine cost per boy. $140 last year. Set goal at 50% of that or $70.
    Our presentations to non-LDS units What did your son get from Scouts last year? Worth the cost of 2 Big Mac meals a month? These families see, experience value. The families of the participating boys in blue collar units in even our poor neighborhoods see the value and far exceeded goals. PLUS support Scouts through popcorn sales with 33% going DIRECTLY TO THE BOY.
    Same goal formula for LDS units but the stake raised less than half of their goal and, even though SLC OKd popcorn sales, do not support that either even though the same 33% would go DIRECTLY TO THE BOY for HIS effort.
    Why the different outcome?
    And where can you get free training? Low cost camps (look around at other camps)? It is a BARGAIN for my $$$!

  • Compensatation must be equitable
    Nov. 13, 2007 5:05 a.m.

    Recently, I spoke with my sister who lives in a ward where the scouts put the flags up on holidays and then take them down.

    Only here house is the only one that doesn't have a flag.

    Why? She feels like raising 6 children, and as a stay at home mom, living on a very tight family budget, she can't afford the $20-$40 donation each year to raise scouting funds.

    I love scouting, but believe there our leaders should set an example and receive compensation that is equitable.

    I am troubled that too many of our organizations pay their executives handsome sums of money when families live paycheck to paycheck and struggle to make ends meet.

    I love the scouting program, but thinks there should be a review of where the money is going. I believe there are retired and experienced scout leaders who could lead the organization on much smaller salaries.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 13, 2007 2:11 a.m.

    Why dont we talk for a moment about the source of funds in a council. In most councils FOS is a small portion (25% or less) of the total revenues used for the councils operating budget. Much of the average councils revenue comes from endowment earnings (interest on investments). Many councils are supported heavily by sales Popcorn.

    In Utah, people have been too cheap to give to the endowment fund. While the UNPC is the largest council in membership and units, its endowment fund is the smallest in the country! People would rather pay FOS than make a meaningful donation that will last into perpetuity.

    We also have a problem with selling Popcorn. For every dollar of popcorn sales, Trails End Popcorn gives 1/3 to the unit and 1/3 to the council. Many councils sell hundreds of thousands of dollars of popcorn a year representing as much as 50% or more of their operating budget. In Utah, we are looking at less than 3% of operating budget from popcorn sales. Our units would rather pay for Scouting out of budget funds and FOS.

    Would we be whining about executive salaries if only a small % came from FOS?

  • Cindy
    Nov. 13, 2007 1:56 a.m.

    I feel the nerve touched by this article isn't envy or jealousy, but faith. The BSA asks a lot from people who serve because of faith in God and Church, who otherwise might admire but have no inclination to join the BSA. BSA bureaucracy has been a burden to many unwitting LDS adults, who accept scout callings because of faith, but find they must attend many more meetings than the Church requires in almost any other ward calling, almost invariably to discuss and plan the self-perpetuation of the BSA and its programs, not the spiritual well-being of boys. They are asked to demonstrate loyalty to an organization that while good, simply is not as powerful as the Church to which they are devoted. As a Primary scouter I wanted the boys to love the Savior. Time spent weekly helping boys make birdhouses, etc., helped accomplish that in some small way. But monthly roundtables made the service a burden. Monthly pack meetings are a family burden. Scouting is great, but maybe both organizations can better achieve their objectives by shaking hands, thanking each other for their mutual contributions over the decades, and parting ways.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 13, 2007 1:52 a.m.

    How about a comment on the bad use of statistics in the article?

    Lets compare the AVERAGE salary of the top-paid profession in the state (OB/GYNs) with the top salary of an individual in a single organization.

    Do you understand what an average is? You take ALL the salaries, add them together and then divide by the number of people being averaged. This means that at least some (maybe even more than half look up the difference between mean and median) make MORE than the average. Oh my!

    Why isnt everyone up in arms about the obscene amount that OB/GYNs earn? Or physicians, or lawyers? The article said that the beginning salary for professional Scouters is $2K LESS than Utahs average salary. So why arent we upset with the average employee for earning more?

    Why dont we try this:
    Take the AVERAGE salary of a professional Scouter and compare it to the average salary of nearly any other profession that requires a college degree. Then lets talk about inflated salaries.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 13, 2007 12:57 a.m.

    I serve as a Scouting volunteer. I was not called to serve I volunteered. I know all of the local executives intimately. They work 60-80 hours per week including nights, weekends, early mornings, etc. for next to nothing. Some of them gave up jobs where they could be earning DOUBLE because they care about the boys they serve. During the summer, in addition to their regular duties, they oversee Scout Camps where they work from 6:00 am to midnight every day around 95-100 hours per week on average. They do this year after year after year. Why? To get rich? Hardly.

    They drive their own cars hundreds of miles a month to remote areas mostly beat-up second-hand cars because that is all they can afford. They consider going to Wendys on a business trip to be excessive. They work out of offices filled with used office furniture that has been donated. These are not volunteers. They are professionals with college degrees, families to feed, student loans to pay, etc. I dont know what you do for a living, but I doubt you put in as much time for as little compensation as the average professional Scouter.

  • Scouting Supporter
    Nov. 13, 2007 12:11 a.m.

    To those LDS members out who don't like scouting or think that the church should drop the program; perhaps you should visit the official church website at and conduct a search. I typed in "scouting" and got 1571 hits of church leaders endorsing scouting. I also typed in "boy scouts" and got 984 hits. It appears to me that the church fully intends to use this program for a very long time.

    For those of you who think that the general church officers do not understand the so called high level of compensation for the very top executives (entry level executives are compensated poorly to modestly) you are very mistaken. President Monson is the longest serving member on the national board. He is instrumental in selecting the National Chief. Furthermore, other church officers are directly involved in the finances of Utah's councils and in the selection of their top executives.

    There are multiple quotations from church leaders endorsing the scouting program. They even go as far as to say that it is an "inspired program". Why do we have such a difficult time accepting the words of the lord's prophets? We should support scouting financially.

  • Ideals worth shooting for
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:42 p.m.

    I am disappointed in all of the ranting. The objectives of scouting and the means of reaching them are sound. The quality of local units depends completely on the families and leaders in the unit. Local leaders who can inspire the youth have an amazing impact on young men.

    I don't know what the professional scouters do, and I don't really care. The ideals and methods of scouting are good enough reasons to support the program. It isn't perfect because no human, nor-human run program is.

    Each boy, each parent, each leader, each person should do their best and let the consequences fall where they may. Learning the ideals of honesty, setting goals and reaching them, or organizing and leading are a few things scouting offers. Many boys will gain from this and many will discount it and squander the opportunity. Just like students in school. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

  • Silver Fox to WOW | 11:40 a.m.
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:39 p.m.

    Your remark... "In 1994 I started my career making $23,600 a year. Today I make just under $70,000. I feel I have earned this salary, and know for a fact that I could be making well over double that in a for profit company doing what I do." ...struck an entitlement cord to me. Perhaps you should leave professional scouting and attempt to earn $140,000 with your skill set. An attitude adjustment might be in order for you. These few comments come from a parent who is tremendously proud of his two Eagle Scout sons. The people that provided great role models for them did not come from the ranks of professional scouters, but rather from volunteers in from our ward. For at least two of these men, your idealized income of $140,000 would have been a pittance in each of their cases. I'm grateful for your service, however, I believe your sense of entitlement is off base.

  • To Scouter Man and Dad...
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:34 p.m.

    That's nice that your Scouting contributions are more than your tithe. It's also nice that your kid has a scholarship. But, NEWSFLASH...the vast majority do not have these luxuries. For me and my family personally, we struggle to make ends meet, and then we are browbeaten into donating to FOS. I'm a huge believer in the values of Scouting, but I absolutely will not donate one more penny to FOS. Find another way to pay professional Scouters.

    Scouter Man and Dad...I have absolutely no problem raising my arm to the square and sustaining our beloved Church leaders, and holding a current recommend. I support Scouting, but I will not support FOS ever again. I am simply looking after the best interests of my family, we don't have the luxuries you do. FOS is certainly NOT a matter of consecration--you are WAY OFF BASE on that comment. I find it highly insulting and pious. I'm doing everything I can to provide, and just b/c I will never donate to FOS again makes me no less of a devoted Church Member than you.

  • Scouter Man and Dad
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:00 p.m.

    I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the comments condemming scouting.

    I live in rural Washington, and yet some of our CEOs of companies smaller than the Great Sale Lake Council make about the same amount as Paul - so no, I don't think he is overpaid.

    I hope that everyone who is bashing the church's support of scouting has the guts to go to the Conference Center next General Conference and raise their hand in opposition to the church leaders who endorse Scouting. Its easy to be faceless here and write, but lets see some real courage.

    For a number of folks like me who are ardent scouters (unlike the claims of some who have written here) FOS is but a small amount of what we consecrate (Any LDS remember that word) to scouting. My Scouting contributions are greater than my full tithe, and I will continue to do so as I have seen the program benefit youth across the world.

    My "contributions" have more than been made up due to my son's $60,000 college scholarship based almost entirely on his scouting achievements.

    I'll be watching conference in April to see how much courage is present!!!!!

  • The Good ol' Days
    Nov. 12, 2007 10:37 p.m.

    Do the memories of my youth fail me?

    How sad when another bubble bursts to expose the greed of man...

  • SE Idaho
    Nov. 12, 2007 10:21 p.m.


    Why the insulting tone?

    To be blunt, I've known a few GAs. Their compensation is modest. Most of the benefits you were mentioning are myths.

    What I'm trying to figure is why your are implying that the LDS church leaders are the ones being sneaky.

    The real issue is Scout Execs. Is there salary justified given the source of funds? The answer, overwhelmingly, is no.

  • Crowsnest
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:53 p.m.

    From the crow's nest perspective- My son was called to assist in the scouting program in his ward. He was asked if he was and Eagle Scout. No came the reply. Do you regret it?, he was asked No he replied. Please don't tell the boys was the response. This non- eagle is a returned missionary practicing law and raising a righteous and loyal family. I'm proud to have him sit with me in the Crow's Nest...

  • To Bonnie:
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:44 p.m.

    Bonnie, I tip a good waiter, waitress, hairdresser and pizza delivery guy quite lavishly. I appreciate good service and I try to compensate them as best as I can. That is PRECISELY why I never donate to FOS.

  • Robert
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:26 p.m.

    I am an eagle scout, I have been a scoutmaster, a young men's president twice and the Bishop of two different LDS wards. I love the principles of the scouting program. There is a correlation between a strong cub program and a strong scouting program and a correlation between becoming an eagle scout and serving a mission. Two of my son's are Eagles and my third is on his way.
    But here is the problem WE have. We are living a lie. The prophet told us not to set a quota for Friends of Scouting more than a dozen years ago. Yet our scout leaders continue to push for more and more money. If my stake president and bishop ask me to I will continue to donate to the Friends of Scouting, because I sustain them and intend to keep my word. It is just sad that the men who dress like boys seem to find more value in money then they do in being trustworthy.

  • Jamie
    Nov. 12, 2007 8:44 p.m.

    I find all of the negativity towards the Scouting program sad. I am a scoutmaster and love the program.

    When run correctly, Scouting blesses the lives of youth. In this day and age, video games, ipods, televisions and cell phones rule the lives of our youth. We are raising a generation of youth that have little to no social skills, are doped up on prescription drugs because we think they have problems, have no leadership skills, learning skills, problem solving skills, don't have many positive role models and don't have many positive experiences.

    What these boys need is a group to belong to that will teach them how to be men, how to be leaders, how to be good citizens, how to be friends, how to solve problems, and most importantly, self-worth through accomplishment.

    These youth need positive role models. They don't get that from the socially backward lives they are living. They don't get that from gangs. A well run Scouting program can offer these things to youth.

    The key is a "well run" scouting program staffed with leaders who are teaching the boys to lead and then allowing them to lead, and who want to be there.

  • Dell
    Nov. 12, 2007 8:43 p.m.

    The scout leaders of my teen years were some of the finest men I have known. I still visit them. One, a Harvard trained Ph.D. chemist took my friends and me for two weeks into the High Uintas every year. Other leaders were professors, doctors and artists.
    The stories of these leaders' experiences in war and in life told under a canopy of summer stars as we sat around a dying fire were far more memorable and informative than anything in a merit badge book. These brilliant men condescended to baby sit us teeny-bopping brats at their own expense. By so doing they rendered added depth to our lives. They were volunteers. I do not recall them wearing uniforms. I recall nothing from the corporate world of Scouting. What I do remember is their care, commitment, and devotion to duty. On their honor they did their best to serve God and to help others. I was blessed to be one of those "others." Their service had nothing to do with any office, administration, or bureaucracy it was an extension of their religious devotion. Is that perhaps what Robert Baden-Powell had in mind when he started the Boy Scouts?

  • Staff deserves every penny.
    Nov. 12, 2007 8:36 p.m.

    In general, the professional Scouters I've worked with over many years as a volunteer have been overworked and underpayed.

    They work ridiculous hours - including most weekends and evenings - and are basically on call 24/7, especially when at camp spending their summers away from family.

    As for Mr. Moore, seems to me his salary is right on considering the scope and importance of his work.

  • Steve
    Nov. 12, 2007 8:04 p.m.

    The vast majority of church leaders who deal directly with young men (Bishoprics, YM leaders, Stake Presidencies and others) devote a great deal of time to their callings and take seriously their responsibilities to the youth of the Church. It is very dis-heartening to see them have to deal with the bureaucracy and never-ending paperwork and training of the BSA when a more Gospel-oriented program would be of much greater help to our young men. Most young men don't have much enthusiasm for scouting. Those who do could still join a local troop outside of the Church. Most people I have seen who work within the scouting program see it more as a chore rather than a calling to be magnified.

  • carol
    Nov. 12, 2007 8:02 p.m.

    I haven't donated to bsa for many many years. I asked years ago for a break down as to how my money was spent and knew most of it went to overpaid executives in plush office buildings. If it went to the hardworking local leaders to pay for carpet cleaning, gas, or valium (wink, wink) I wouldn't have a problem with it. My boys didn't like scouts and they are all returned missionaries with Temple recommends. Scouting was not the be all end all people make it out to be. I hope the church ends its affliation with this group that seems to have more than its fair share of pedophiles that prey on trusting young boys and their naive parents.

  • Bonnie didn't read the article
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:49 p.m.

    Not wanting to support lavish lifestyles in the name of "the boys" is why i will never donate again.

    Unfortunately...they just cashed my check for this year. I am so disappointed to hear this.

    I too have never heard of the "discount". NOBODY has ever offered me a discount and our ward exceeds the "requested" amount every year.

    I do feel like a sheep. My bishop was asked to go to every house in our ward to ask for money for FOS. He did. People that had NO business giving...gave! And why? Because he asked them to. When the Bishop says give...people will always give.

    Shame on the FOS executives who shamelessly took advantage of this ward relationship. My Bishop is sick to his stomach over this.

    I'm going to print this article and mail it in with my next donation of $0

  • RE: Flopster 5:19
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:42 p.m.


    You know how much (or how little) the GA's make?

    Guaranteed, you would probably be surprised how little these men are compensated in this life.

    They all take a cut in pay to work for the church.

    Get a clue before you post...

  • Former DE
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:37 p.m.

    BS of A said: "Making more than the Vice President of the United States.

    Sorta like a "five pound bag of Manure"...

    No matter how you shake it, it's still five pounds of manure."

    BS of A, You should look at the whole picture and not just the slanted report from the deseret news.

    The salary comparison chart shared by the Deseret News is disingenuous. The article shared the total compensation package of scout executives including salary and benefits. Whereas the article only shared the salary of the President and other elected officials. If you included all of their benefits including lifetime pension, food, travel, security, and other items it would be in the millions.

  • Bonnie
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:20 p.m.

    I think that people who don't give to FOS are plain CHEAP. They are probably the same people who don't tip their servers at restraunts, the pizza guy or when they get their hair cut. Any charity usually has someone working behind the scences to help strengthen the organization. They should be compensated for their time and effort. Why is the BSA any different? The point of donating money to a worthy cause is not to be so concerned about "what's in it for me!" but the benefit of others it can help. The GSLC manages millions of dollars of assets each year. The compensation that employees receive is not that much of a percentage. I'm glad that we have such qualified inviduals managing the in and out of our money and I know that it is going to a good cause.
    I also know for a fact that every professional DE or SDE contributes at least $250 to FOS each years and many have donated $1000.00 to local endowment funds. Higher executives give much more. Like I said earlier. People who don't give money to charity are just covetous and selfish

  • Who decides salaries?
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:11 p.m.

    The voting membership of a Boy Scout Council, including SLC, is composed of "Chartered Organization Representatives", of which each ward or Stake has at least one. If these people actually go to meetings and vote, they decide the direction and budget and everything else about the local Council, including the membership of the Executive Committee and other groups that make salary recommendations.

    If they don't go or vote, they are de facto agreeing to the salaries, budgets and audits. I think a big problem in corporate America [profit or non-profit] is the lack of true accountability by the "Board Members". If the only people who come to vote are the boss's friends and cohorts, then no one is holding them accountable.

  • BS of A
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:07 p.m.

    Making more than the Vice President of the United States.

    Sorta like a "five pound bag of Manure"...

    No matter how you shake it, it's still five pounds of manure.

  • Free Choice
    Nov. 12, 2007 6:58 p.m.

    Wow! Comparing our Church leaders to scout executives. Now that is just plain crazy. That is the trouble with many scout supporters. They think the BSA is part of the Gospel, and it most certainly is NOT. Pay all you want to your beloved BSA, and FOS, but don't force me to do so also. Programs of the Church come and go, and I hope the time will soon come for the scouting program to go.

  • Jeff
    Nov. 12, 2007 6:45 p.m.

    Comparison with 4-H is not good since most 4-H agents are supported by tax dollars. In fact some counties assess a separate millage for extension, of which 4-H is a part. Agents are also backed by the land grant university.

    Scouting rarely files for government grants with all of the paperwork and BS required of federal grants.

    With all of this said its amazing that scouts can support executives where taxpayers can support similar positions with tax money. Competition becomes the driving factor.

    As an eagle scout and an assistant district commissioner, I support the district and council executive salary structure.

  • Scouter B
    Nov. 12, 2007 6:39 p.m.

    Beginning professional scouters, as mentioned in the article, are paid about the same as teachers. And I believe teachers are underpaid for what they do.
    People who work for not-for-profit organizations pay the same for groceries, clothes and gas as everyone else. Pay should be comparable.
    Salaries are set by the local council executive board, as are the budgets. Get a copy of your council's budget to see how the funds are spent, and communicate with your board representative about your concerns.

  • SE Idaho
    Nov. 12, 2007 6:38 p.m.

    Floopster -- my understanding is that GAs get in the $80s.

    Trying to compare these salaries to the that of the church's is disingenuous.

    Are you another professional scouter family member?

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 12, 2007 6:27 p.m.

    Floopster | 5:19 p.m. is absolutely correct.

    It seems inconsistent for many of these comments to be condemning these Scout executives when Church leaders are in a similar situation.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 12, 2007 6:12 p.m.

    I'm not sure that all those complaining realize that the COR in each ward, usually a member of the Bishopric, has a vote on their Council Board and if they don't like the budget, including the salaries, they can vote against it. Having served in Council and District positions as well as currently serving as a COR I rarely see any LDS CORs attending these once a year meetings where they would have an opportunity to have input. Just like politics, it's easy to whine and complain, but when it comes to actually getting involved to make a difference most are just happy complaining.

    By the way President Thomas S. Monson is the ranking member of the National Board that also approves the National Budget and the Chief Scout's salary. Maybe those whiners should think again the next time they are asked to sustain him. It's mind boggling to me that so many are willing to badmouth a program of the Church endorsed and supported by living Prophets.

  • Rob Perry
    Nov. 12, 2007 6:11 p.m.

    I'm sorry more of you did not know Scout leaders like John Oldham, Jay Pfeiffer, Fred Biggers, Russ Barr and Larry Boice. I recall with gratitude and fondness the many lessons they taught me and my class mates. Any amount of FOS contributions are a pittance and would hardly make an interest payment on the debt I owe these decent and dedicated men.
    I suppose there will be some shifting in focus after this article. Perhaps there should be. It is good for any public non-profit organization to be transparent and be examined in the light of day. Afterwards there will be those who will use the past as an opportunity and excuse to not donate. But those who recognize the true value of a local Scounting program will do as they have always done; put a little extra in the FOS envelope and still contribute to the local Scout Troop in multiple ways.
    My hat is off to all of those grat souls... but espcially to John, Jay, Fred, Russ and Larry. Also to Mary, Sister P., Penny, Elva and Susan. God bless us all to see clearly, speak softly, express gratitude and give generously. Shalom, rhp

  • Floopster
    Nov. 12, 2007 5:19 p.m.

    The First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve, and all other GA's are paid and paid well. Yet, we as members of the church donate many hours each week as well as 10% of our income.

    If you ask me, giving $50 to $100 every year towards Friends of Scouting will help a decent, private organization continue to do good for us, for our children, for our communities and for our country.

    And this is coming from someone who hated Scouting!

  • David Potter
    Nov. 12, 2007 4:55 p.m.

    Now that the 'SECRET' salaries are out ... it is time to 'clean' house in the scouting program. The local council PR representative, Kay Godfrey (455-0758) said he stands behind everything our council leader said and for his enormous salary.

    The justification given for the salaries is that "its not our fault", the Scout Executive Board okayed these salaries. Well ... then it is time to FIRE this board and put men and women on the board that understand what a fair salary should be!

    For our leader to justify his salary because he carries many hats including "carrying out the garbage" and that if we don't pay him that he will go to another state .... this is arrogant and outrageous.

    The whole scouting SALARY program needs to be scrapped but this will only be done if everyone lets the Executive Board know their feelings.

    I have been involved in scouting for over 7 years. I sacrificed my holidays to help the boys setup flags so they could earn money ... but to hear that the main leader received a million dollars is hard to sacrifice anymore.

    Please contact the Scout Executive board today!!

  • To Dave Brerrington
    Nov. 12, 2007 4:43 p.m.

    As a professional scouter, yes we do contribute generously to FOS. Yes we are out there collecting at scouting for food. And, we do often serve in unit level positions in scouting. We even pay for our own uniforms.

  • Shame!
    Nov. 12, 2007 4:22 p.m.

    This year I spear-headed the FOS drive. Our ward boundaries have numerous low-income apartments, all of which were visited for donations. How horrible I now feel for rounding-up their money to support salaries of such magnitude! If this Moore guy would cut his salary in half, it would fund the costs and camp fees of hundreds of scouts.

  • Dave Brerrington
    Nov. 12, 2007 4:19 p.m.

    Do scout executive ever volunteer any of their time to scouting? Do they contribute to FOS? Are they collecting food for Scouting for food or are they making money everytime they are in (overpriced) uniforms?

  • Response to Casting Stones
    Nov. 12, 2007 4:17 p.m.

    Mr. Casting Stones alleges to be a "professional scouter" but has serious issues with LDS Scouts and their leaders. It appears that his prejudice against LDS scouters outweighs his interest in helping the boys.

    The LDS church is scouting's biggest fan!

    LDS money goes to help these sp called BSA "professionals?"

    This summer I got the same feeling of prejudice at a BSA camp in Nebraska. I guess my impression is now confirmed. Sad!

  • Casual Observer
    Nov. 12, 2007 4:08 p.m.

    May one say that its not the salaries at issue, its the fact that Church members feel forced to contribute to those salaries out of a sense of obedience and devotion to the cause?

    What I find irritating is the pressure applied to local congregations by the Scouting organization to meet the goal set for them by the Scouts themselves. Failure to meet that goal results is a great deal of additional pressure to measure up.

  • I'ts really too bad
    Nov. 12, 2007 4:07 p.m.

    Sadly, I'm not too surprised by how much they are overpaid. I was in cub scouting for quite a few years and loved helping the boys achieve. I have always thought that the costs for supplies, awards, etc were outrageous, especially for a "non-profit" group. For the BSA to charge $20+/$35+ for youth & leader shirts, $6.50 for handbooks, and the list goes on. When I first started in cubscouts the cost to go to Camp Kiesel was only $10, it subsequently went up almost yearly until now it's $18!! When asking why the increase every year, the reason given was that they needed to do improvements at the respective camps. Camp Kiesel has still not been upgraded! The bathrooms, camp store, etc are all in various states of disrepair. When I talked with another leader who had started in scouts 25+ years ago, they were also appalled at the way the costs have gotten out of hand. For years after they first started,Camp Kiesel cost $5 per person AND included a hot lunch. Now the costs have skyrocketed and you have to bring your own cold lunch. I think the IRS should be looking at revoking their tax-exempt status.

  • Ernst
    Nov. 12, 2007 4:03 p.m.

    What a way to destroy a family -- having the father be a professional scouter, spending 60-80 hours a week at his job. If this job requires so much time, why not split it up into 2 or 3 position, and split the wage accordingly.

    If these high-paid scouting professionals do so much, they sure don't let anybody know about it. It would be reassuring to know they they are actually worth what they are being paid. And for that matter, how do you even determine that?

  • Ward YM President
    Nov. 12, 2007 4:02 p.m.

    My opinion... Take scouting out of my ward programs and there will be a lot happier young men, parents and leaders. Scouting is such a divisive issue that it should not remain a mandatory part of the YM program. It causes too much contention, and in my opinion, the Duty to God program will better prepare YM for serving in the Church, in their communities and serving others without the incredible expense to the families and church. I support my scout leaders 100%, but when it comes time for service, fund-raising, etc., it's always the same leaders (accepted callings) and the same few YM who are interested or forced parentally. To me, it sets many young men up for a feeling of failure if the Eagle is not achieved. I support it but don't push it. But that's just me.

  • To George Fisher
    Nov. 12, 2007 4:00 p.m.

    President (not Elder) Dahlquist was on the selection committee that hired Paul Moore. He saw the value of what Paul Moore could bring to the scouting organization. Any program that is important and has value deserves to be funded. President Dahlquist sees the value of this program. He has been called and set apart by a prophet of God. Shouldnt that be good enough for us a s faithful church members? If you are that upset about improving scouting for the better maybe you should pray to gain a testimony of the principle?

  • Mother of 2 Eagle Scouts
    Nov. 12, 2007 4:00 p.m.

    Holy Cow! Or is it Holy CASH Cow!? The Scouting program is an American institution that has contributed for decades to the development of fine young men. I know, because I raised 3 Boy Scouts. But this article has proven to be an alarum to the citizens of the State of Utah. Thanks for sharing the over-inflated income of one executive, but I care too about the young men in Utah to allow this to disuade my measly $25/yr donation. I am grateful that I can easily afford to made such a donation -- even knowing that $20 of it goes in Moore's pocket. The other $5 is the part I and the Boy Scouts really value.

  • Searcher
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:56 p.m.

    It is too bad that some of the time this man spends earning all his money isn't spent teaching scouts how not to get lost in the woods. The training of the "scout masters" seems to be sorely lacking as compared to other states, such as California.

  • Internal Memo
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:54 p.m.

    Perhaps Elder Dahlquist also needs to distribute the memo mentioned earlier - The scouts in troops under the guidance of called Scoutmasters account for more than 50% of the death and serious injuries nationwide, while less than 20% of the total BSA membership is LDS.

    Mr Fisher - Who is bloated & busted? Is it the church member entrusted with the health, safety and development of our sons who is putting the boys at risk?

    Complain about the money - In my predominantly LDS district the non-LDS families contribute more than 250% more, per registered boy, than the LDS families do. It is the non-LDS family that financially supports the program for the LDS boys.

    Our district volunteers (LDS & not) spend twice as much "problem solving" time with LDS leaders - And the professional does even more than that.

    I know part of issue is there are SO MANY TASKS for the Ward to manage, and simply not enough members. That carries into Scuting, too - you cannot always call the best to be the Scouting leader - BUT WHY does the church NOT CALL THE BEST to prepare the yong men for mission (eg. Scouting!)

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:52 p.m.

    My contributions to scouting each year as an Asst. SM and Deacons Quorum Advisor are in excess of a thousand dollars. The boys and I are going to start building us a composite/wooden 15' Bruce Devlin designed boat. We have the plans and will have it done before summer camp. I will continue doing what I do because I believe in boys, but no more funds will be going to FOS.

  • Inside View
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:48 p.m.

    I have attended many scout functions with my son and have served in LDS-sponsored units in scouting. The first thing I learned was to distance our program from the BSA. The BSA-sponsored camps are usually poorly run and always corny. The Jamboral in Fillmore, UT was an epic disaster (not enough water and far too many boys for the available activities). I have personally seen more than one "professional scouter," those earning 50K+ of Friends of Scouting money each year, lose total control of a group of boys. They seldom exhibit the personality or skills for a professional life in scouting. We found success by reinventing the program on our own to make it palatable to our boys. We avoid their camps and their workshops; it is easier to just go to a state or national park. Our kids still progressed just fine in advancements. But what 21st-century teenager wants to run around in paramilitary gear pretending that it is still 1950, that there is a frontier to be tamed, and that racist stereotypes about Indians still pertain in American life? By the way, our ward's FOS assessment is more than the entire YM budget.

  • "Attitude" said it right!
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:47 p.m.

    I highly recommend anyone involved in Scouting (as well as those who are sitting on the sidelines complaining) to read Brother Thane Packer's book ON MY HONOR: A GUIDE TO SCOUTING IN THE CHURCH.

    There will always be those who sit on the side and complain - Scouting is no different.

    I think Scouting, if run as the BSA and the President have presented the program, is a great benefit for the members of the quorum. It acheives the goals of leadership development both in Scouting and in the Church.

    But, like anything else, if you CHOOSE not to follow the recipe, do not be surprised is the results are not what you wanted. Make a cake without the flour, eggs and sugar - and what do you get? It is NOT a cake - so DON'T COMPLAIN that it does not taste like cake!

    (There is a great Scoutmaster Minute about this point - Check it out!)

  • George Fisher
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:42 p.m.

    Elder Dahlquist are your reading all of these? I hope you or someone else at Church Headquarters is taking notes. Scouting is bloated and it is busted.

  • Scouter from elsewhere
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:41 p.m.

    Fascinating. I come from a council outside of Utah. I can tell you I would be thrilled if the LDS would pull out of Scouting because the LDS church rules Scouting at the National level with an iron hand. Changes that would benefit the organization tremendously are vetoed by the LDS church. As a result of program and organizational catering to the LDS church, the appeal of Scouting to non-LDS church members has substantially diminished. From the comments I am reading, it seems to be a lose/lose.

  • Dear Ticked
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:35 p.m.

    Sad that you paint "lifetime professionals" with "Silver Weasel".

    The Church itself has endured many scandals - Should the Church be painted as a "House of Scandal"?

    Church members have been convisted of child sexual abuse - Should there be a "Silver Groper" award?

    Sad that GOOD PEOPLE have to read YOUR postings and feel the hatred you (supposedly a church member) show others. And the "general public" then equtes YOUR attitudes as representing the church.

  • fund missions
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:33 p.m.

    The LDS Church is trying to keep the cost of missions down and help pay for more missionaries in the 3rd world. Why not take the money spent on manditory scout registration and use it to pay for more missionaries worldwide? This seems a possible better use of church funds to promote the spread of the Gospel and the mission of the church.

  • Anonymous in SUU
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:32 p.m.

    For all those reading these comments, consider this:

    Read each comment in the spirit for which it is written. If it is negative and mean-spirited, just delete it from your brain. These poeple are murmuring anyway against something they have no testimony of. Only read the comments that offer solutions, not pettiness. They certainly don't complain about all the tithing money that pays for church worker salaries, and what do they do?

    I heard a story recently about a stake that approached the Scouts about how to increase their missionary percentages 18%, and the Scouting professional coached the stake leaders to implement the program with training and activities (roundtable) at all . The stake responded that their percentages increased to 38% in a few months. Sounds like Scouting is still relevent to me.

    The corporate side of Scouting runs like a business and probably needs improving. Hold their feet to the fire, and ensure the services they promise are being met. The best way to do that is to GET INVOLVED and change it from the inside. If you don't have time, don't complain, don't donate, but surely don't destroy the good program that it is.

  • Do YOU represent LDS attitudes?
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:30 p.m.

    The individual who posted YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW is so right! He had been in a good program with parents and leaders with good attitudes - and guess what experience the boys had??? A GOOD ONE. Imagine that!

    Then you have Camp Little Lehmi issue - where the LDS youth had indecent contact with boys, whose "issues" preying on boys was known by the Ward and Stake leadership who RECOMMENDED HIM to serve at camp WITH THE KNOWLEDGE of his abuse - at least twice - Church recommends the known abuser serve on camp staff - abuse continues - and who is primarily blamed... The BOY SCOUTS.

    You know, there are plenty of issues to go around.

    No program (inside Scouting or outside) has been good when participants are mandated to participate as YM are.

    And before you complain about "BSA registers EVERY BOY, whether they participate or not" - The SLC Church MANDATES the registration. The BSA national, locally and the boys and leaders in the local troops would be better off WITHOUT those quorum membersh who choose not to participate.

    Too many "fake" Eagles, too many dangerous situations - Why does the LDS church allow this BEHAVIOR?

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:21 p.m.

    From President Hinckley's talk "Slow to Anger" that he gave in General Conference last October, "Once a man who had been slandered by a newspaper came to Edward Everett asking what to do abou it. Said Everett, 'Do nothing! Half the people who bought the paper never saw the article. Half of those who saw it, did not read it. Half of those who understood it, did not believe it. Half of those who believed it are of no account anyway.'"

  • Casting stones???
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:19 p.m.

    Lambasting those who serve as professionals seems to be the order of the day.
    My experience as a professional being away from my family for 2 months each of the last 3 summers to manage a camp, gone a min of 4 nights a week. And compare the cost of Scout camp to any other week long camp. No comparison Scout camp is LEAST EXPENSIVE.
    While at camp and at district activities I am responsible, accountable, for health and safety of the boys. Including health and safety of LDS boys whose LDS leaders drive through campsites (driving around no vehicles past here gates), who flagrantly violate safety rules regarding bringing firearms, who allow boys to ride in beds of trucks violating rules and laws, who bring generators, DVD players and TVs with R rated movies for their quorum boys to watch, who have boys with less than 60 days tenure in Scouts receiving merit badges that require more than 90 days to complete, and on and on. Tesponse of the Ward and Stake leaders to these issues of health, safety and integrity: Mr. Professional, that is YOUR problem.
    Lets watch the stones we throw!

  • Ticked
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:12 p.m.

    It looks like its time to add a new award to scouting for lifetime professionals: Silver Weasel!

  • can't pay enough
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:10 p.m.

    I think that they should get paid what they can. I hate scouts personaly, but my boys love it. It is a good program and helps boys become men, they should receive more than the president. As should teachers, moms and dads that lovingly raise children, people who work with the elderly, and other service oriented organizations. Why begrude the profesional scouter?

  • Scouter B
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:09 p.m.

    It seems a major issue here is the fact that the LDS church has so much authority over what happens in the church units. The Catholic Church is the second largest supporter and user of Scouting (and it is not the official church youth program), and each Pack and Troop has to stand on its own and is not regulated by the Church.
    The local council board sets the budget, which in most BSA councils is published. Attend council meetings if you want to see change. Find out who in your area serves on the Executive Board, and let them know your concerns. Also, funding in most councils is not raised the way it is in Utah.

  • Eagle Scout & 25 years scouting
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:07 p.m.

    I will not criticize Mr Moore or any other employee of the BSA doing their jobs. I love scouting and the scout oath, law and motto. They have helped me mold who I am and I try to live them daily in my life.
    I do believe however that in an organization like the LDS church we have the resources to expand our Duty to God program with several different fields of emphasis. We could interest a broader spectrum of young men and women, at a much better use of funds. Apply the amount of money we raise from FOS, registration fees, purchase of badges and what we collect from families to go to BSA camps now, and imagine what we could do with that amount of funding combined with so many who are willing to volunteer to help youth.
    As for camps, what a wonderful mission call that could be. I believe that many within the church would even consider donating land for the camps knowing there were not millions used up in overhead. This would bless the lives of both our young men and young women.

  • To BYU Prof
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:05 p.m.

    choosing whether or not to participate in FOS does not indicate sustaining of the brethren. Last time I checked participation in FOS had not yet reached "commandment" status.

  • I've still had it
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:04 p.m.

    BYU prof, I think you're full of it. We have several very active families who just don't do scouting. We respect that and work around it and thank heaven not everyone in the ward has the guts to take that stand.

    Of course I believe the leaders of the church know how the BSA is financed. But what bang for the buck are you talking about? What percentage of units attend a district camp? They do "support" FOS but very carefully. We get a letter from our stake president asking us to give. How about a letter from the First Presidency asking the members to open their wallets for FOS? Telling us it's our responsibility as active members of the Church to donate generously? If it's there, I guess I missed that memo.

    I love how half of each bishopric training meeting with the stake is taken by the stake counsellor over scouting telling us that the BSA needs us to do this or that. Who's the tail and who's the dog in this scenario?

  • George Fisher
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:02 p.m.

    BYProf2 -- The YW run just fine without executives making six figure salaries and compensation packages. The YM would work just fine with the Priesthood and Duty to God program. I had hoped it would replace BSA years ago when it was introduced.

  • Scouting the action
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:02 p.m.

    My sons aren't scouts, I am not a FOS and I still attend the temple.

    Many of the young men in our ward lost their virginity on scout trips when I was a youngster.

  • Dave
    Nov. 12, 2007 3:00 p.m.

    This is an insult to every volunteer leader worldwide.

    I grumble every year I write the 'Friends of Scouting' check.

    And to think I just made out a check from our Stake for over %5,000 for re-chartering. This on top of the 'Friends of Scouting' money.

    Certainly the LDS church could find a better way.

  • Wow!
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:58 p.m.

    My four boys are all eagle scouts and I attribute that to their mother and to their scout master. I saw little help from the professional arm of scouting. I did see the elaborate expensive building in the Phoenix area. I did see adults receiving many many awards (get rid of the adult awards and save bundles of money). Do we really need the professional scouters?

  • SE Idaho
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:58 p.m.

    Those who are trying to argue that it is inappropriate to criticize Scouting because of its tie to the Church need to look deep inside their souls.

    That same exact thought process led to the family of two boys molested at a scout camp here in Southeast Idaho to be driven from the area. After the molestation was reported, many in our area tried to hush the victims and their families -- arguing that it would hurt Scouting and that Scouting was church approved.

    Of note, our local church leaders have expressly disclaimed that kind of defense.

    Scouting is an organization with great ideas. Scouting today is in the grips of a group of greedy professional bureaucrats who are more concerned with their paycheck than the good of the boys. Look at the comments posted here by those who obviously benefit from these salaries. Sick. Sick.

  • George Fisher
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:57 p.m.

    Thanks Morning News. I've printed a dozen copies of your story and emailed a URL to all my friends who have been tapped by FOS over the years. I am posting the story on the board at our local LDS ward and Stake Bldg. for all to see.

  • Reorganize
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:55 p.m.

    There's no doubt that the scouting execs work hard long hours and are good people. The question is, can the work be accomplished in a different manner. A 1/3 cut in salary would establish 3 decent positions to handle many of the shortcomings people are writing about while redistributing work to a reasonable level that allows a personal life. A 3-for-1 trade.

  • Full of yourself
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:52 p.m.

    Dear BYUProf, I just got my temple recommend and there was no question about my support or lack of for the scouting program! Nothing. Zip. Zero.

    FYI...alot of us actually think for ourselves and can make develop sound opinions and make judgements based on what we see.

  • George Fisher
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:50 p.m.

    To BYU Prof. you obviously have different questions than I did as a bishop. Failing to support FOS will not jeopardize that I think in all things you are too serious in this.

  • FYI
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:46 p.m.

    You really cannot compel every YM to be registered. You need a parent's signature (as well as the scout's signature) on the registration form.

  • BSA - Not Inspired
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:45 p.m.

    I'm tired of the pious bloggers using the lame argument "the Prophet supports it, so get with the program" (read WOW). It is just a great program, but has nothing to do with the gospel.

    Other than Canada, the Church does not use BSA outside the U.S. for its YM's program even though many countries have scouting. A Fantastic alternate program is used. Remember, there are more non-U.S. chuerch members.

    BSA has become too bureaucratic, too expensive, it doesn't appeal to enough youth, and the Church already has a better program in place that is used in the rest of the world.

    Unfortunately, having the Church pull out of BSA would really hurt a great program that historically has served so many so well. Maybe it is time to consider phasing out of BSA. I'm sure Church leaders have had discussions to this effect.

  • BYU Prof2
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:41 p.m.

    All those of you (who are LDS) who've indicated you are now withdrawing your support of FOS need to let your bishop know of your intentions, and then be prepared to surrender your recommend to them, as you apparently no longer support the brethren --unconditionally-- as prophets, seers and revelators.

    The brethren STILL support BSA and FOS, or did I miss some memo from SLC?

    You had better believe that the Brethren know EXACTLY how BSA is run (financially, and otherwise.) The church employs specialists at HQ who regularly conduct financial feasibility studies, verifying that the church's support of Scouting/BSA is STILL the best bang for the buck, and which would cost the church MUCH more $$$ to run a similar/replacement program on its own. The brethren are NOT oblivious to all of these issues, as most of you seem to think. You are very, very blind to all the internal goings-on if you think the Brethren are not completely and totally "on top of" all these issues.

    Let the brethren do their job, and stop counseling them how to run the Kingdom. You are treading on thin ice!

  • Scouting a positive experience?
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:41 p.m.

    A number of posters have said what a positive experience scouting is. I have no doubt that some have had and continue to have positive experiences. By and large, however, those going through scouting are not experiencing ANYTHING close to the ideal imagined by scouting's supporters. The problem is NOT due to uncommitted local leaders. Repeatedly I've observed, for the good of the boys, local leaders attempt to make a poor situation better. I have to imagine that at some point the Church really does have to make the break with scouting. There is just too much at stake.

  • Still wondering about FOS
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:29 p.m.

    Being outside of Utah and not in a stake/ward/state which does the FOS, I am still wondering how this FOS drive works. Who makes it mandatory for the local stakes/wards to participate, the local council (and how do they do that?) or the LDS church?

    If a ward does not meet its 'quota' or its 'donation' is unacceptable or not enough for the BSA, what happens? Who chastises them - BSA, the Church leadership or what? What happens if a ward decides it does not want to participate? Isn't a donation by its very name a voluntary offering, whatever the amount?

  • Outside Utah
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:23 p.m.

    I live many states away from Utah and here, the wards are compelled to register EVERY ym under the age of 18. Scouting is not scouting when it's mandated. And scouting is not scouting when you have fat cats sitting on the kitty litter while local "volunteers" babysit boys who don't care about scouting. I've never understood the reason behind compelling boys to take part in scouting when the LDS church is built on free agency.
    I've pulled my boys out of a Church troop and put them in a community church. The program is much better and the boys and leaders WANT to be there. They will become Eagles because of their desire and work and not because some church leader gives it too them to make them FEEL like they've accomplished something.
    Maybe this will help in making the overall change needed to ensure the integrity of both organizations!

  • Balance
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:15 p.m.

    Executives in non profits can and do make good salaries. I personally don't have a problem with BSA executives making a nice salary, with one caviat. In most non profit organizations the executives are responsible for fund raising. In Utah at least, that burden is placed upon the local LDS congregation. That in my opinion is wrong.

    All ties between the LDS Church and Scouts should be severed. If the program is good enough it will succeed upon it's own merits. Also, if the leadership in BSA is worth their salaries they will find ways to survive and even thrive without the LDS Church forcing their youth to participate.

    If Scouts is worth the investment in time and resources, let the free market decide, we don't need to have this crammed down our throats anymore.

  • Pennies By The Inch
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:04 p.m.

    If you're thinking that "pennies by the inch" is a worthy charity....think again.

    Your pennies are being donated to IHC - one of the most powerful and most protected health care corporations in the country.

    It's time for the Church to let BSA and IHC do their own fund raising.

  • A woman's point of view
    Nov. 12, 2007 2:03 p.m.

    I've got it! I have the answers! I have always wondered what it was those dedicated mothers in the Book of Mormon did to raise the 2,000 Stripling Warriors-- NOW I KNOW

    They gave to FOSW (Friends of Stripling Warriors)

    I need to tell the world!!!

  • Just Common Sense
    Nov. 12, 2007 1:37 p.m.

    I believe you get out of scouting what you put into it. The principles that are taught and the benefits that can be gained are great. That said...

    I think it is arrogant and morally wrong to expect one person to volunteer his/her time and hard earned money (i.e. gasoline) to go "beg" for another individual's salary. That is why the BSA has to use so many gimmicks regarding the SME (sustaining membership enrollment) drive, later called "Friends of Scouting," and this year's "Fund One Scout". BSA needs to find another way to raise this money or simply ask their execs to live on less. Because it is morally wrong, it naturally creates a HUGELY negative response. No one complains about burning gas to gather fast offerings because it is based on a morally sound objective. And because it is, it doesn't need a cute name to get people to participate. The "Collect Money For Mr. Jones' Salary Down At The Scout Office Fund Drive" just doesn't have as nice of a sound as "Friends of Scouting" does it? They can pay what they want, but should do away with SME/FOS as a means to get the money.

  • Rachael, not alone...
    Nov. 12, 2007 1:32 p.m.

    Rachael your comment about the young women programs not getting the same level of funding is spot on. I have two daughters (age 17 and 11) who, interestingly, expressed the same feelings about how maybe their programs would get more money if scouting were dropped. I did NOT prompt their comments. I had no idea they felt this way...I feel bad about that. I have always given to FOS and supported scouting, but never liked the program. It was way too complicated, and honestly, by about age 15 the boys simply lost interest in it. Some boys never cared about it (about 1/3) and simply stopped coming. I'm not sure scouting is accomplishing what the LDS church wants it to accomplish. It may even be hurting things.

  • Makes you wonder
    Nov. 12, 2007 1:29 p.m.

    I really would not mind his salary if we got a good product. The council website is a mess and I still don't have the refund for items paid for that we never got becasue of computer problems. If they have enough money to pay that salary then I think we can expect better services (better bathrooms at East Fork of the Bear). I have no problem with the scouting program and I hope is survives despite the fact so many people feel the way they do on this issue. It is just sad that he receives such a high salary when the services we get justify an Executive at 100k per year. Please don't destroy the scouting program!!!!

  • George Fisher
    Nov. 12, 2007 1:27 p.m.

    I have been Scoutmaster or an assistant in four different troops and am currently serving in one because I care about boys. Being an ex bishop I prefer the Duty to God program over scouting. I personally will no longer give to FOS. I was a collector for them this year. BSA is DOA and the program is entirely bankrupt except for the bloated salaries of its bloated leaders. Time to move on Elder Dahlquist.

  • FOS drive
    Nov. 12, 2007 1:22 p.m.

    Everytime the friends of scouting drive arrives, I hate the feeling it creates in our home. "How much are we asked to give this time?" is always the dreaded question. As a family who has only daughters, I hate it. The young women don't do this and we would never want them to. It feels just plain wrong to feel obligated to contribute to something that our family never sees or even knows where it is going. Something is just not right when the bishopric members, stake presidency members or anyone else asks for money that is not even overseen by the church. I gladly give donations to others charity causes such as pennies by the inch, etc. It's the compulsary feeling that FOS gives that bothers us the most. I also hope that the Church can find another way besides the BSA to have meaningful activities for the young men.

  • NG
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:55 p.m.

    Lets pray the church drops BSA and goes with Duty to God. Everything we do in the Church is supposed to point to Christ. Even as we pretend that Scouting does this (and it doesn't) it (BSA) could be sued by the ACLU for officially striving to do so.

  • Rachael
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:52 p.m.

    If anyone in a position of influence in the LDS church reads this I would like to plead with them to pull our church funds out of Scouting. Statistically we are losing our young women in larger numbers than ever before, but we still expect them to run their program on a small fraction of what the Scouting program "tithes" from faithful members of the church. We support our leaders' decisions because we are the faithful. Please make a better decision that will not be such a trial of our faith to support.

  • New Direction
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:50 p.m.

    The fact that the BSA is more "big business" than I ever would have imagined is very troublesome to me. I think there are better causes out there that I should be contributing to. I don't want my dollars going to pay that kind of salary. I believe it is completely out of touch with reality...sorry BSA.

  • Mark
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:48 p.m.

    The Young Women's program is run by volunteers, and they have a great program, often more successful than YM/BSA ever dreamed of being.

    Why does the YM program need a professionally-operated "business" to serve as its activities arm? It doesn't! We need mothers, fathers, and neighbors grounded in the gospel. We do not need so-called "pros" with six-figure salaries to create a program on how to raise our children.

  • ex-boy scout seeks work...
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:40 p.m.

    It seems that many people are concerned at how over-worked this poor professional boy scout is. Maybe it would make more sense to cut his job description into three pieces and hire three men to do it. They could each get a third of his ($214,000) pay, or $71,333. This way thay would all have time for their families, and they would even have time to be scoutmasters of their own troops to stay in touch with the realities of scouting.
    If three men could not handle the workload of this exceptionally gifted scouter, we could consider paying 4 people $53,500 or 5 people $42,000. This would make much more sense -- especially if they have to resort to snow shoveling!

  • won't take no for an answer
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:37 p.m.

    My LDS ward came a begging for $$$ for scouts. Since my husband was temporarily out of work and funds were extremely tight, I politely told them "not this year." The bishopric member went away but called back and talked to my husband. The ward got their money and my husband got an angry wife. Just goes to show that a woman's word isn't good for much in this church.

  • son of erik
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:20 p.m.

    Why is almost everybody being a victim about how much money is going through the Leaders hands? Did you ever stop and think how much value they are producing? Exchange creates wealth. So what if they make more then our president. So dose Bill Gates and look at the value he has created. If your not happy with your life fix it, you have a brain use it. Turn it on. I'm not saying go out and sell drugs or anything illegal that would be the opposite that would be turning your brain off. Stop being a victim because somebody is making more then you. You should read Atlas Shrugged it is one of the books that will help turn your brain on and there are many more books out there. We have been trained to think like socialist. We are Americans! Home of the free, living the pursuit of happiness, do you want them to create all this value for penny's on the dollar if that's the case. Then that is just above slavery. Value for value, you can create any thing in this world. What is holding you back? That question is for you to decide.

  • Dave C.
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:17 p.m.

    I attended boy scout camp with my son when he was a boy scout. We sat down in the mess hall to eat, and the man in charge said that each table was to send a scout to serve the food. The scoutmaster told my son to assign someone to do it. My son said "I'll do it myself", and stood up. The scoutmaster said "SIT DOWN, you are the patrol leader, YOU don't wait on THEM. Assign one of these grunts to do it!". My son looked totally perplexed, but did as he was told. These "professional scouters" are doing just what they have been trained to do -- getting all the grunts to serve them. This is the exact opposite of what the church tries to teach: "let he who would be the greatest be the servant of all". I found that I had to try to UNDO what the scouts taught my son about leadership. We as a church need to provide a better program for our boys. This idea of trying to bend Babylon into something resembling Zion will never work!

  • The Time has come to say goodbye
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:16 p.m.

    I have been involved in Scouting for many years.

    The only time I see the professional scouters is when they come to collect $$.

    On several occasions when I needed assistance from the Council, I was treated as a nuisance.

    The badges and awards are overpriced.

    There is no benefit to the local unit of having a Council. From my personal experience, the local units receive no benefit from the FOS funds.

    Time for the Church to move on.

    The Duty to God program is superior to the Scouting program.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:56 a.m.

    For those who are saying they'll never donate to FOS again, perhaps you should apply the same standard to your tithing goes. I have yet to ever see an accounting for how much money is paid out to LDS professional staff and leadership...

    Professional scouters have a lot more to deal with than the average volunteer scouter will ever be faced with. They deserve to be paid accordingly if you want a quality program.

    One thing I do agree with is abandoning the compulsary nature of LDS scouting for both boys and leaders. I'd much rather have see boys earning their Eagle because it was a personal goal, and not because the church (and by association, their parents) demanded it be done.

  • From a Sanpete C.O.R.
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:47 a.m.

    I think FOS donations should stay in the unit or the ward. That way contributors can see first hand if their donations are doing any good, and adjust their donations accordingly.

    Scout execs could be paid through profits at camps, etc. If the experiences and services they offer troops are "worth it" the market can dictate what they charge for these services.

    Local volunteers do the bulk of the meaningful work - we all know that.

    In order for BSA to legitimatize itself, it has to find a way to run profitability by some other method than having volunteers canvass neighborhoods for doantions. It doesn't matter if their execs are making one million or fifty thousand. Someone will think it's too much.

    Let BSA figure out what they pay their people by running it like a business. Donors can still donate land and money to build camps, etc. BSA can charge what the market dictates for participation and they either sink or swim. I don't care what a scout exec makes if they make it through the profit of their operation as opposed to soliciting little old ladies on social security.

    I like scouting - I HATE F.O.S.

  • Scoutyscout
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:45 a.m.

    Where will the LDS Church train leaders without the BSA? Local leadership is bad enough as it is.

  • Do Something About it
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:42 a.m.

    It has always bothered me about the amount of money I see going into scouting and how little I see coming back to the boys. Camps are still expensive and the 30 Cent merrit badges cost alot more.

    TIMES UP! The Scout program has outlived its usefullness. It Lacks the appeal and the capability to involve the majority of the young men. It is time for change!!! CALL OR WRITE THE COUNCIL!!! DEMAND AN ACCOUTING OF FUNDS AND INSIST ON CHANGES THAT WILL BRING THE MONEY BACK TO THE TROOPS. The truth is that scouting is more effective on the local level and that is where the money should be.

  • WOW
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:40 a.m.

    Having been a professional Scouter now for 13 years and a member of the church, I can not believe the hate and scorn shared here. In 1994 I started my carrer making $23,600 a year. Today I make just under $70,000. I feel I have earned this salary, and know for a fact that I could be making well over double that in a for profit company doing what I do. I am in Scouting because I beleive in what it does for our young people and our communities. I think it rather funny that people want to complain about what I make. Try walking a mile in my shoes or another District Executives before you make your critisizm final. A Phrophet of the Lord made the decision that Scouting should be part of our program. President Hinckley has re-affirmed this in our day, just google his name and Scouting and you will find his love and support of the program. Finally the wisest man of all once asked a group of hecklers, who will cast the first stone? I guess the stone here has already been cast. Go sit down with a Pro, then make your decision.

  • Todd
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:30 a.m.

    The last time I checked, my boys weren't in Scouts because of how much someone made or didn't make. They go to camp, and they learn and grow. It's an incredible experience for them for for a $50 free-will gift I give.

    I wonder how much all of the detractors and complainers posting here would pay for a positive experience for their? Maybe they should consider that the next time they drop that amount or even twice that amount to send their boy to the local amusement park.

    I have a couple of daughters I love and who I want to be happy. I think a free-will gift, that might help a future son in law treat them well, is worth it.

    So, go ahead and complain and overlook what it is we are paying for. Spend your money on a day of rides and candy if you wish. But at least come up with something better. We have plenty of predictors of rain. How about building some arks. I'll give this year, and my boys will be at camp. And I suspect they'll have fun a grow, because that's what I pay for.

    Best of luck.

  • JB
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:29 a.m.

    Glad to see my friends of scouting donation is being put to good use...

  • Confused about FOS
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:25 a.m.

    My earlier post never appeared for some reason. It wasn't abusive, offensive or off-topic etc., so I am not sure why.

    I am active LDS and live in a ward outside Utah and we do not have FOS, so I am not sure about some aspects of the FOS.

    If a quota is assessed to a stake/ward and it is not reached, what is the punishment/consequence? Also, it disturbed me when I read that some wards have had their donation 'rejected' or 'returned' with a negative response and told to raise more? When is a donation, of any amount, considered an obligation?

    If a ward decides they will not participate in this FOS drive, is it just BSA who is berating them, or does the Church weigh in too?

  • Scouting makes a difference
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:21 a.m.

    This comment is directly addresed to the author who wrote this one sided story. Why didn't you ask Paul Moore how long he has worked for the Boy Scouts of America to earn the salary that he so rightly deserves? Why didn't you ask him how many nights his family didn't have him home for dinner? Why didn't you ask him how many summers he spent at boy scout camp while his family missed out on summer vacations? Sure maybe his salary does seem high for a non-profit. But, I am positive he has earned every penny he gets. You did state in your article the starting salary for a professional. Why didn't you ask any of the scout executives how much their starting salary was? You have very dedicated prosessionals and volunteers working to help the young men in our country. One more question for you. Why don't you focus on the good they are doing for these young men? I guess it is a lot easier to focus on the negative. This a question I asked myself, "What must have been this person's scouting experience?"

  • Do somthing About it
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:20 a.m.

    It has often bothered me to see the amount of money headed in to the BSA and how very little I see comming back out of it. Camps are Still Expensive and your 30 Cent bage costs a heck of alot more than it ought to. The 10% Gold Level discount for meeting your Friends of Scouting quota is a Farce.

    TIMES UP! As Supporters of scouting we need to be contacting our leaders and demanding a detailed accounting of funds. Scouting Provides some great benefits but has failed to change with the times. Its time the money began to make its way back to the individual kids and the program needs to provide them with somthing they might more readily relate to in order to teach good morals and values. CALL OR WRITE THE COUNCIL AND DEMAND ACCOUNTABILITY AND CHANGE!!!

  • Non-disclosure
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:03 a.m.

    A very common practice in our scouting district is for the ward to do a big fundraiser at the beginning of the year - like a ward auction where people donate goods and services - then auction them off to each other. Ward members are told these funds are to support the YM and YW programs, implying they directly benefit the youth. What isn't disclosed to ward members is that these funds are also being used to pay the FOS quota. FOS feels like extortion. For every dollar we spend in the ward on the boys, we spend at least one in FOS. When you add to that the $10 per boy and leader that the church pays each year for rechartering, it's a heavy financial burden. The church may have to abandon scouting because of the sheer financial weight of it. Is there not a more practical and efficient solution here? When I'm up in the hills above our town with the boys, I'm really not sure what benefit they are getting from the BSA bureaucracy.

  • WYO Scout Mom
    Nov. 12, 2007 11:00 a.m.

    It appears to me that the Central Wyoming Council has it right. If our FOS goals are met our boys get to attend a week long scout camp at the most beautiful scout camp 9 miles from the east entrance to Yellowstone (Camp Buffalo Bill) for FREE! Yes that's right FREE! All meals included! Now that's puting those FOS dollars to work! This also works for Cub Scout Day Camp. I was part of the Trapper Trails Council in Ogden for years before my move to Wyoming and grudgingly contributed to FOS every year and felt like my son's troop got nothing in return. Since moving to Wyoming I gladly pay my FOS and see a return directly for my boys.

  • Had enough "2"
    Nov. 12, 2007 10:59 a.m.

    Amen, you took the words right out of my mouth. I've got $2,800.00 from our ward that I'll be turning in tomorrow night.

    I feel incredibly guilty after reading this article and thinking of some of the widows on fixed incomes who gave substantially.

    I've got 2 years to go but don't know if I can do FOS again. Maybe I'll get released early.

  • Confused about FOS
    Nov. 12, 2007 10:50 a.m.

    Our ward in California does not have this FOS drive, or if we do I have never been approached or read about it in the bulletin or from the pulpit.

    What disturbs me is the 'obligation' to fill a certain amount 'assessed' to each stake/ward, and the reports that a first and/or second total ward donation has been returned or rejected by the local council because it was not enough?

    Exactly what is the punishment/consequence of not meeting the assessment? When is a donation unacceptable?

    Nov. 12, 2007 10:42 a.m.

    Instead of giving to FOS can I give to my local troop? Will I remember to do that if they don't come around asking? I know that we would be happy to pay the ward scouts good money to rake leaves (and we actually have done that), aerate our lawn, paint, spread compost, reset the flags in our patio, etc., etc. There is no reason to buy their gaggy popcorn or just write them a check. I say if the scouts are going to solicit money for their programs and for their paid executives, LET THEM WORK FOR IT!!! Themselves!!! Not under the direction of some poor ward member who should be home working with his own kids!!!

  • Scouting is valuable
    Nov. 12, 2007 10:40 a.m.

    Is the Scouting program perfect. Of course not. I only hope an article like this makes the program even better.

    What other program can better insire our youth to better serve God, Country, and fellow man?

    For the Scouting program to work at any level, it requrires leaders with testimony, training, tenure and time. If you are in or have in the past been in a Scouting program that was not what you expected, the leaders were likely lacking in one, or more, of these areas.

    Sure the article makes the salaries sound like the dark side of Scouting. I for one will continue to support Scouting in any way I can, including Friends of Scouting. If you want to complain about value for your money, just look at the price of the Christmas toys they are advertising. The Scouting experience will last a lifetime. How long will the toys last?

  • PDF
    Nov. 12, 2007 10:21 a.m.

    What is a boy worth? If we can save even just ONE from destruction of any kind isn't it worth it? Scouting has saved many, and what's more, it is one of the few value-based moral organizations left in the world today. If you want to send your money to the federal government or to the trial lawyers association, go ahead, but for me and my money, I will support Scouting!

  • Salient points
    Nov. 12, 2007 10:18 a.m.

    As a lifelong church member who's been everything from senior patrol leader to Scouting commissioner, I believe these are the relevant points:

    When Moore said, "I've been in this BUSINESS a long time..." he got it right. For him the purpose is making money, not serving boys, despite his protestations to the contrary.

    A level of dishonesty has long pervaded Scouting. It's reflected in boys having their merit badges passed off by Eagle-hungry adults without the boys ever having done the individual requirements for that badge, and it's reflected in Moore's claim that he works 60 to 80 hours a week. Moore does NOT work those hours. That's 11 1/2 hours a day, 7 days a week, and it doesn't count getting dressed, eating and driving to and from work.

    The real work is done by the ward-level volunteers. Council execs shouldn't claim THEY'RE the ones serving the boys. It's dishonest.

    BSA has high ideals, but nothing that isn't already encompassed by the Aaronic Priesthood program. Scouting activities tend to focus on rank advancement and merit badges. The character building is done by church leaders who would do it all anyway, with or without the formal, costly, cumbersome BSA organization.

  • Virgil
    Nov. 12, 2007 10:11 a.m.

    I think the article was well balanced. I don't think it was intended as a negative for BSA. It was a statement of facts. Those who see it as a negative saw Boy Scouts negatively to begin with. As for the LDS church, the problem is that you call men and women to those positions in Scouting. Many simply don't care. They just fill the position. That is not the fault of BSA. So, let's say we eliminate scouting from church programs. Now what kind of a program are you going to replace it with? How are you going to accomplish the same goals with those young men with out scouting? I have been a Scoutmaster, had boys in Scouting with good and bad experiences, and collected Friends of Scouting (which I do not like doing). The problem is not BSA, the professionals work their tails off, it is the leaders who just fill the calling and throw out a basketball every week. The potential is there, but it is not being used.

  • I've had enough
    Nov. 12, 2007 10:11 a.m.

    For those saying we don't support the prophet if we don't support FOS, you might want to know that the Church "Handbook" says the FOS drive is separate and "voluntary" from other fundraisers for the youth. If the Prophet wants supporting it to be part of our support of him, let's hear it from him at general conference or in a First Presidency Ensign message. I'm an Eagle Scout, former scoutmaster, and bishopric counsellor over scouts. Turned my money in last night. Three more years to go. That's how I'm counting my time.

  • To Thou Shalt Not Covet
    Nov. 12, 2007 10:09 a.m.

    I am very divided in my support of the scouting program. I know professional scouters, scout leaders within the church, the boys, their parents. We live outside the Mormon Belt and many of us are making high professional salaries and know what it takes to work in business or non-profits. Regardless of what the scout leaders are paid (which in my opinion is in line with other non profits) I realize that there are problems with the scout program and a lot of anger. This discussion reveals what was already simmering and just gave people the "last straw." The boys in our ward are very active in many different endeavors and it seems like the ones that are more into video games are also the ones who are more into scouting.

    And talking about the "familiar spirit" of scouting (usually a term used with witchcraft and secret societies) gives me pause in relation to scouting...What are they doing in those pack meetings?!?

    I also resent your insinuation that if anyone is not enthusiastic about scouting, they are not teaching their children the values of work, patience, and self denial. BSA does not have a patent on those virtues.

  • A Real Scouter
    Nov. 12, 2007 10:03 a.m.

    While everyone is complaining, those Scout Executives and other professional employees are working to improve the lives of youth. There is no other profession that does so much for the youth of America. Friends of Scouting is a donation and last time I checked if you don't want to donate you don't have to. On the other hand you don't have much choice when it comes to paying taxes or your bills and plenty of people are paid from that, only their job does not compare to Scout Professionals. Only those who are poorly educated would believe all the negative statements in this article. Don't be the one that believes everything they hear, do some research and find out the whole story.

  • Scouter B
    Nov. 12, 2007 10:01 a.m.

    One of the major problems is the way the LDS church conducts the Scouting program, with high turnover of volunteer leaders because they are "called" and requiring all boys to join. And then their is the way they raise the funds. Scouting in 99% of the country is not operated this way.
    Remember, each local Scout council is a separate corporation run by a locally elected board. Address you concerns to them as well as the church.
    As a former "professional scouter" I can say that many years my family qualifed for food stamps.

  • Nehor says...
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:53 a.m.

    Alma 1:3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people.

    I know that's probably a misapplication of scripture, but the real issue is why we can't run a youth program based entirely upon volunteerism, like the rest of the church programs. The money confuses everything.

  • I'm going to double my FOS Gift
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:47 a.m.

    I know BSA execs and their hours worked.
    Those writing these hateful comments about their salaries could not keep up with their hours worked, time away from home, and personal sacrifices to create an environment for kids to blossom.

    Nov. 12, 2007 9:40 a.m.

    GIVE SCOUT EXEC'S RAISES! Ask anyone who actually works with them.
    All the whining armchair parents and leaders out there who question the value of scouting or state that scouting is not interesting or irrelevant for their kids have only themselves to blame.
    All you parents who are quick to satisfy your child's wants for the next X-box or playstaion console/game should not find it at all surprising that a knot tying demo can't keep your 12-year-old's attention for more than 30 seconds. YOU HAVE CONDITIONED THE KIDS TO BE THAT WAY!
    Teach your kid the value of patience, hard work and self denial (something you must have missed out on)and you'll find a kid that finds scouting fun and relevant at least until they turn 15, by then you have created enough of a foundation that if the youth wanders away they will at least recognize the "familiar spirit" instilled by the principles of scouting and will want to make changes in their lives to get it back.Principles of scouting resonate with all youth to one extent or another. You can't pay enough money into a program like that.

  • Matt
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:37 a.m.

    Here's an idea. I have known about these high salaries and mismanagment of funds for some time now and have therefore not given to FOS for the last three years. Here's what I do instead. When the local unit is doing their fundraiser, I double or triple the suggested donation amount. That way all of my donation goes directly to the local unit which is where the money is really needed to pay for the high cost of camps, awards, and other activities.

  • Non-scouter
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:35 a.m.

    Huh? Does this issue really merit this long of an article, which consists mostly circular hand-wringing and rehash? This is much ado about nothing. Although I'm not involved in scouting, it seems clear to me from the article that the salaries are justified, they are independently reviewed and apparently on a par with other councils and other youth organizations, given the increased level of work and responsibility involved here. I am acquainted with one professional scouter who recently left because the demands of the profession outweighed the monetary benefit. He constantly worked evenings and weekends and had to travel quite a bit. His young family saw little of him. Trust me, those who stay in this profession don't do it for the money--they do it for love of the boys with whom they work. The per hour pay doesn't amount to much. On the flip side, every professional scouter I've ever known has been an extremely able, competent executive, who could easily outearn their scout salary in the private sector.

  • me
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:34 a.m.

    I feel that those kind of wages are absurb. To think that the boys and their parents and leaders have to beg for money so that our boys can be chartered thru LDS church is outragious!!

  • Norman Jensen
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:30 a.m.

    30 years and counting as a volunteer scouter.
    I have concerns, but not with the Scout program. The Scouting program is essential to teaching vital skills, values, and lessons. To accomplish these teachings, we need leaders doing the program as outlined in Scouting, teaching boys responsibilities. That requires training. In posted comments about disinterested boys, as I once heard someone say,'we don't have a boy problem, we have a leader problem'. When I say leader, I refer to the team of support that should exist.
    I don't know any other program our boys could be in that would teach every boy these needed important values, and have fun doing it. In scouting, every boy is a winner if, the program is run properly.
    Dispite my concerns, I have and will continue to support scouting. Those that have voiced their non support of FOS, I invite you to find another organization or program that can teach our youth these values, and then give your time and donations there, because these young men need an excellent program, like Scouting. God bless all the great scouters.

  • B
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:25 a.m.

    Many of you are unreal. This program takes a lot of work to run and these top executives put in many hours beyond the call of duty. So tate away friends of scouting money because these people work hard for their livings. And if you don't want your kids involved in such a good program that can make these young boys into great men then don't let them attend and request they not be registered. The don't have to be and you don't have to accept a calling, but ask yourself this - is that your attitude towards them attending primary and mutual - the prophet see it as important as the others. Get real - this is a full time job - their living don't they deserve to make a decent one as much as anyone else in another profession. Would you turn that salary down if it was you doing the work?

  • Iley
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:25 a.m.

    This is rediculous. I worked for Scouting as a Scoutmaster, Unit and Asst District Commissioner, Trainer, Council Webmaster, and other positions. Throughout all this time, I was told how little Scouting had and GAVE THOUSANDS of DOLLARS to Scouting as an endowment and Friends of Scouting as I knew that many Scouting units/members could not afford uniforms, books, camping, etc. I left Scouting after being told that the ONLY GOOD LEADER are Eagle Scouts. To now read this gives me another reason for not going back to Scouting. I love the program, but this is insane. VOLUNTEERS are giving up time and MONEY so that executives can rich, that is plain old hypocrisy. Scouting is about teaching morality and leading through example. This is a POOR example at best.

  • Scoutyscout
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:24 a.m.

    I think the disconnect is between the systems of the LDS Church and the BSA. I think we've all experienced berating by professional scouts for the conduct of LDS scouts, LDS scout leaders and our poor training, and so forth. While on my Order of the Arrow ordeal, two adults were talking (but shouldn't have been) about how the LDS scout act like they own the camp. This was outside of Utah. Lots more stories like that personally.

    Now that I'm older, I realize that we practically did own the camp, and would probably buy the thing if we pulled out of scouting. Perhaps we engender resentment?

    Part of it comes, I think, from the nature of our troops. Other troops consist of scouts eager to be there, whereas ours include everybody. If our program were truly voluntary rather than a part of the YM program, executive salary would not even be an issue. But that disconnect is no reason to abandon the relationship. The real issue is whether scouting is serving its purposes. Unless someone entitled to that revelation decides to change, there is a lot of good from the relationship with scouting, despite the disconnect between organizations.

  • What did you expect?
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:24 a.m.

    My experience with non-profits, especially those not reporting financials, is that financial misuse is the norm. When people appropriate themselves a salary they will do so at the highest level they think they can get away with. Human nature. Lack of financial transparency practically BEGS for misuse.

    It is an interesting observation, having lived as long as I have and seen how the world really works, to note that "executive type" people tend to see their contribution to an effort as indispensable, invaluable and therefore worthy of what most of us would view as very selfish levels of compensation. The reality is that every person who participates in our economy has value. Imagine if the garbage did not get collected for a couple of weeks...the job that the garbage collector does is actually pretty important, but we generally don't view those people as being important, do we? I worked for a privatly held company at one time. The CFO and I were friends. He SHOWED me what the owner disbursed for year end bonuses. The General Manager had total discretion to "share" the bonuses with employees or keep all of it himself. Guess what he did? Kept it all.

  • Recently retired fund raiser
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:22 a.m.

    Never again. As a scoutmaster if I had the friends of scouting money to use for the local boys I could overcome the number one obstacle to LDS youth programs, MONEY! The boys deserve better! They are where the money should be spent!

  • For the good of the YM
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:10 a.m.

    The spiritual strength of YM in the Church a continual concern. We should be doing all we can to support and sustain each and every young man. It is a critical time in their life and in many areas of the world (including Utah), it is clear that we need to do more in terms of helping them develop spiritually and in all other aspects of life.

    Scouting benefits a small minority of youth and parents. Those who are not interested (a large majority) in tying knots and getting merit badges, are just as valuable as those who are, despite having different interests. They should not be made to feel that spiritual development and success in life is equated to success in scouting.

    We are losing too many young men because of the focus on scouting. I can't wait until the ties between scouting and the Church are abolished.

  • Keith
    Nov. 12, 2007 9:02 a.m.

    I have been in scouting for 20 years; I like scouting and what it can do for a young man, I have seen young men do great things, and for that reason I will stay in scouting and help support it. I have always wondered just what my money went to. I was sure it was not going to the boys, so some years ago I stopped giving to the Friends of Scouting and will never give again. Now I what until the friends of scouting drive is over and give my money directly to the troop, I now see what my money goes for, tents, gas, food and other equipment.

  • bob
    Nov. 12, 2007 8:59 a.m.

    STOP the greedy coorporate coruption! What a scam. I love scouting but hate the greedy theft of scout executives. They care more about having the newest mercedes than the children they are suppose to serve. I am anxiously awaiting a new scouting program. Scouting is about service not greed. I emailed my local scouting office to let them know my disapproval of these salaries. I was a scout many years ago in Canada (70's). We used to do drives to collect pop bottles and junk to resell to make money for tents, supplies and patches. We never begged for money just worked our butts off. It was hard work and we felt like we earned our next camp. I hope the coruption in scouting salaries is fixed or they all get fired! I think it is robbing from the poor to give to the rich. PS I LOVE SCOUTS!

  • Mark
    Nov. 12, 2007 8:50 a.m.

    The answer is simple: Dump Scouting!

    There is NO empirical evidence that Scouting is worth this much money.

    Can't religious communities and charitable organizations (who often sponsor troops) do a better job on their own?

    Do we really need that "Eagle" badge (protected by copyright, of course) to denote that we've done a great job to raise our sons?

    Can't fathers actually find time to spend with their own sons (and their sons' friends) rather than having to be "called" to go camping?

  • arc
    Nov. 12, 2007 8:45 a.m.

    As the article states 83% of the money received for the GSLC goes to programs/services. if you want to know where the money goes, go the the gslc-bsa website.

    32% of all money comes from the FOS drive. 40.5% from camp fees, etc. 3% from the United way. 16% from special events and fundraising, 7% from interest and misc.

    In the past they had a chart as to where the money went, they have a list only. They need a chart yesterday.

    Everything looks great, except when you figure that Paul gets 3% of the total revenue. Add the other professional scouters and you get about 20% or 1/5.

    Scouting is good. We should help support it. As I mentioned above, I donated after reading this article. They have these really cool patches....

    Paul's salary is out of line. It seems when I was a charter rep, I was invited to a meeting to discuss things like this. I am sure Paul will not be getting a raise. He would be smart to give 1/2 of his salary back, or resign. He probably can't give 1/2 back, so we need someone else. The other two councils..

  • Comment
    Nov. 12, 2007 8:44 a.m.

    Sacrifice brings blessings. I'll continue to follow the Prophet and the Church's support of the Boy Scouts of America....until there is a change. But, until then...I'd better start re-thinking my desire to become a farmer and start working at the BSA. "Working" only 60-80 hours a week for that salary is a breeze. I'd bet they even get most Sundays off. Thanks DesNews for the eye-opening career opportunities available at the various Councils of the BSA.

    Nov. 12, 2007 8:40 a.m.

    My first impression of the article was one of shock..then frustration for a way to make the situation better. It just seems the "focus" is not on the young men as much as it used to be. Still, many dedicate long hours and days for the benefit of helping boys learn many things. I was always under the impression the FOS was for the benefit of the local troops, not for the outlandish salaries of the execs. Give them half of what they are being paid and we should see where their dedication really is. I believe the Church could independtly run a program better and the boys would learn more and there would not be executive salaries to pay. I read every comment.I don't support FOS anymore because of the ungrateful attitude of the ward I was in. No matter what you donated they asked for more and put much pressure on it. I don't believe the Church is aware of the way pressure is put on members for this program, if they were I know they would make changes to improve it. FOS is not a positive experience for many. That is sad!!

  • Darren
    Nov. 12, 2007 8:31 a.m.

    I've read the article regarding Scout Executive pay and I'm stunned at the reader responses. Let me try to inject some sanity back into the dialogue:

    1. Do you want the Boy Scouts to be run like a government agency? Have you been to the DMV or Post Office lately? You get what you pay for.

    2. $250,000 for a seasoned executive at ANY mid-size company ANYWHERE in America is nothing. You should leave Utah occasionally.

    3. $250k working 70 hours a week = $70/hour. Huh? We're entrusting the well-being of an essential organization and the lives of thousands of youths to a guy that makes $70/hour? I say give him a raise.

    4. I have worked with numerous Scout Executives in California councils and have been impressed that the BSA has actually been able to attract and retain talented people. The pay is a part of that, but only a part.

    5. The LDS Church pays registration and many fees and a small Friends of Scouting donation is onerous?

    Scouting was never more relevant than it is today. If you think Scouting has ever been about knots and camping, you are sorely mistaken.

  • Can't afford FoS
    Nov. 12, 2007 8:30 a.m.

    My donation limit is reached.

    I have only so much to give, and the donations I plan to make for Billy Joel ($95), Blue Man Group ($85), Harlem Globetrotters ($110), The Cure ($50), and Mannheim Steamroller ($88) might even keep me from donating to the Jazz a few times this year.

    Those guys need the money. They really earn their pay.

    Sorry, no more money for Scouting.

  • A reluctant BSA Supporter
    Nov. 12, 2007 8:25 a.m.

    While I was not aware of the excessive salaries for the professional scouters, I have been suspect of the costs of the program for a long time. As a former Bishop outside of Utah, I have found the Scouting program to be very expensive to try and manage within the church budget. In addition, it does not meet the needs of all the boys. I could write a dissertation on the challenges I have seen with trying to run a scouting program in the church outside of Utah where the parental and financial support are lacking. I have three boys and my wife and I both really wish the LDS Church would drop the program and work on Faith in God and Duty to God only. It would save a ton of money and I think it would be more effective for the boys. I am now serving in a Ward YM Presidency and trying to run two programs (Scouting & Duty to God) certainly does not follow Elder Oaks admonition to simplify.

  • Another Eagle benefit
    Nov. 12, 2007 8:02 a.m.

    The Navy, and probably other US military as well,
    start an enlistee two pay grades higher when he has his Eagle.

  • BSA is a lost Cause
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:55 a.m.

    I am an Eagle Scout an I do owe alot to Scouting, However I have found it disturbing to see how little of the money a ward or parents for that matter donate to scouting actually comes back to them. It is sad to see the thousands of dollars raised in the wards go to headquarters and then have it still cost an arm an a leg to go to an organized camp. the halmark of a good Non-for-profit is how much money it gets back to the lowest levels of the organization. In this case the scouts themselves. Guess what parents, With scouting its not making it back to your kid! Whats worse is the scouting program is bording on becoming obsolete as Club sports, School activites, etc take up more of our kids time. We need a program like Scouting to teach our young men + women good values, but such a program must be appealing and supportive to those who would stand to benifit. Scouting has lost that appeal and obviously is not supporting kids the way it should be. Becoming an Eagle scout has become too easy and employers are aware of that.

  • sad heart
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:48 a.m.

    Not one eagle scout award is worth the price that has been paid, by the parents of boys killed or hurt on scout activities. My son was hurt. It changed all of us for ever. The scout program did nothing to help our son. I talked to everyone at the council and they did nothing.Did not care. Only the LDS church helped us and our son. It is not what it seems. Please, please move away from BSA.

  • Zion Prospereth!
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:49 a.m.

    So if the Church continues to support Friends of Scouting after this, what is your response going to be? Are you all going to tell the First Presidency to get lost? I didn't head up our ward's FOS drive this year because I like it, but because I was asked to.

    Secondly, the market place has established these scouting salaries, as is well documented in the article. That doesn't mean it is fair (I know I'm a teacher), but it does mean you can't change it. Fire Moore and you'll have to pay the same to replace him. Not fair, just so.

  • East Coast
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:47 a.m.

    It is ALWAYS a good idea to look into an organization before giving them money. Non profits have to file a tax form each year called a 990. You can look them up online.

    I have looked at many 990s and based on that information, my family situation, and my own level of comfort with different factors which I will not discuss in detail, I will support the Ronald McDonald House. I will not support the PTA. I will support our volunteer fire department. I will not support the Coalition of Police and Sheriffs. I will support the Congenital Heart Information Network. I will not support the American Heart Association.

    The list could go on. Remember that these are my personal decisions and not entirely based on the 990.

    You can look up non-profits on something like Charity Navigator. You can look up 990s too. From a quick search, it doesn't seem like the Boy Scouts are out of line with other non profits in the US. For example, some of the employees of the Children's Miracle Networks (also in Utah and connected to the Osmond family) are earning $300K or $400K a year.

  • Engton
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:34 a.m.

    As a Scoutmaster, after I took time to take some Scouts around to gather Friends of Scouting funds for the first time, I decided I would not do it again, because I knew it was just paying salaries. This article confirms my stance. Having said that, I do see the benefits of the Scouting program (for those young men who have a desire to be involved). I also see the benefits of the Duty to God program. And I know those two programs are very similar. The LDS church will eventually choose the right.

  • Norman Barber
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:31 a.m.

    I am in favor of having the parents who are of Scout age to pay the way for their children toi be in the Scout program. I think the Young women and the young program of the church can do to develop the youth of the church.
    In our area the church purchased 4000 acres Cinnomon Creek which was purchsed by six stakes in the Cache Valley district. The cost was 3 million dollars. This is not used as it should be. This is a gated and locked area for entrance. The area was developed for all of the Scouts, young women and young men to use. I think the Church could devlop its own scouting program much cheaper.
    I am really upset to hear about the high salary paid to these Scout leaders. The fringe benefits also that these leaders get. I believe in scouting but, i think salaries need to be adjusted.

  • scouting vs football
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:21 a.m.

    I buy football tickets for entertainment and feel that I get my money's worth.

    I donate to scouting to benefit the boys, not to pad a professional scouters $1 million salary.

    Dont confuse BYU football with friends of scouting, they're two entirely different subjects and purposes.

  • To Andy 11:18 p.m. Nov. 11
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:17 a.m.

    Your comments use a technique called "attacking the messenger." Using this technique usually means that you do not like the information that was given but cannot actually refute the information. Lawyers use this technique.

    "Lee, you and Joe have done a great disservice to the community and to a very worthwhile program. You do not offer any alternatives, and your tone is envious, if anything."

  • To BB 3:28 p.m. Nov. 11, 2007
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:12 a.m.

    To BB (his comment below) who spent so much time in a scouting job. I try my very hardest to avoid supporting organizations that treat their employees like this. The labor unions of America worked long and hard to prevent this sort of oppression.

    "I spent three years as a professional Scouter. I loved the job, but had no personal life. I often worked from 7:00 in the morning until 11:00 at night, sometimes six or seven days in a week. I was responsible for every aspect of the program within my district. I recruited boys and leaders, did training, organized Scout and day camps, supervised district leadership, and much more. I left because I was having to make too many sacrifices of family and personal time...."

  • Suzyk
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:11 a.m.

    My hope is that the LDS Church will back out of the scouting program. They have done a lot of good in years past but with all the perverts out there and the church continues involvement the chances are getting bigger it could be a downfall. Just reading the comments, it is obvious only the big money makers are for scouting. It's not for the boys and hasn't been for a long time...let's be honest's the scout leaders who should be paid not the executives. They don't have any personal involvement with the boys...just make sure they get their fat paychecks...Friends of Scouting is a farce..we hated it...what used to be "good" for the boys is only "good" for the greedy executives. We no longer support it..I worked for the BSA in Provo and back then they were not raking in those kind of funds. Pres. Benson was right..GREED is the root of evil and the BSA have made this true.

  • Give me a break
    Nov. 12, 2007 7:03 a.m.

    To say that the scouting program is the best venue to provide the boys with a moral compass is just plain silly. Half the boys in my ward that got their Eagles were partiers. Yes, that's right 4 of 8 were drinking beer and smoking pot on a regular basis. One even served some jail time. Open your eyes folks.

    I'm all for Duty to God.

  • Eric
    Nov. 12, 2007 6:59 a.m.

    It does not matter who gets paid what for being a professional scouter. What is most important is the cost/benefit ratio for the involved boys. All of my three boys achieved their Eagle Scout rank. As a scout, I wished that I had achieved this rank. Never the less, as a church leader, I am seeing that scouting is becoming less and less relevant to the spiritual development for our boys.

    When Elder/Pres Eyring presided at one of our stake conferences as few years ago, he said that President Hinckley is for dropping Scouting because of its cost/benefit ratio and President Monson is for it retention.

    If I had a vote, I would cease to have it a required arm of the church run by the wards. If the church is going to continue sponsoring scouting, let it be a function of the stake young mens presidencies if the stake chooses to have a scouting arm at all, with participation solely by choice for the boys and with parent volunteers participating by choice and not by calling. With this, scouting would again be fun for those involved and not an uncompensated drudgery as it now often is.

  • Where should anger be?
    Nov. 12, 2007 6:56 a.m.

    There is anger here.
    Is the anger about the high salary? The salary is determined by the LOCAL COUNCIL VOUNTEERS who serve on the Council Executive Board. Some of these are LDS Ward and Stake leaders who provide direction to the council.
    Is anger at Church leadership for electing BSA as the youth program a Boy Scout program within the Church that is a significant departure from the programs in non-LDS troops nationwide.
    Is this venting (without appearing to directly challenge the Ward and Stake leadership) at the Bishops who call and then remove scout leaders so fast that they never can get an effective Scouting program rolling? At Deseret we have a book that describes this On My Honor: A Guide to Scouting in the Church by Thane Packer.
    Is it because Scout Troops in the Church are not as safe for the boys as troops led by non-LDS groups? President Charles Dahlquists office Church YN account for about 17% of boys in Scouting, yet LDS troops account for more than 50% of serious injuries and deaths of Scouts. Why? Again, President Dahlquist: Not taking and applying training, not following Scouting rules and not demonstrating common sense.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 12, 2007 6:46 a.m.

    To: Mr. Most of You are off Base,

    Yes, we do have a program that could replace scouting. It's called Duty to God. We could expand the program to incorporate some of the better elements of scouting. Mutual nights activities could be used for Duty to God, service, career night, character development and combined activies with the Young Women.

  • Just Me
    Nov. 12, 2007 6:43 a.m.

    I don't know if this has been said but I would be willing to bet that FOS raises no more than 40% of these council's budget. They are doing so much more fundraising than just FOS. Budgets are available for anyone to see and every unit can send its representative to board meetings where he has a vote on these issues.

  • single mom
    Nov. 12, 2007 6:33 a.m.

    I don't live in Utah, but had three sons in scouting and a grandson just old enough to join now. It was always a struggle for me to buy uniforms, books, camping equipment and fees. My boys learned a lot from scouting and two are still involved as adults. One son is a Fire Captain , the other the US Air Force and use their "spare" time, volunteer to help youth. Missouri doesn't have FOS and I would not donate if they did. YW programs are not as well funded and parents slip extra cash to those running the ward programs. The LDS leadership need to demand an audit, look to changing YM programs and make the BSA programs optional. Life skills are good, so is having fun. Foil dinners teach great life lessons. My girls were in GS but liked YM much more. Get involved and change it from ground up. Revolution hurts everyone and benefits none. Thanks to DMN for reporting this story.

  • Park City Resident
    Nov. 12, 2007 4:35 a.m.

    Time for the LDS Church to pull out of scouting and start their own program.

  • What is being bashed here?
    Nov. 12, 2007 4:17 a.m.

    I see the anger - WOW....
    Is the anger at the Scout organization? The pay? Or is that simply a reason to unload?
    Is the anger at the church because the church presidency CHOSE Scouts in 1913 as their youth organization for YM?
    Is the anger at the local wards? Because the bishops call Scout leaders and then transfer them out before they even become engaged with the PM? (Read ON MY HONOR - Deseret sells it)
    Coupled with the previous example - Is the anger at the church because, while less than 17% of the boys in Scouting come from the wards, more than 50% of the serious injuries and fatalities come from LDS troops (Check with the Young Mens Presidency - that office published the figures) becuase the called leaders CHOOSE to ignore safety training, program training and the other relevant rules (including youth protection from abuse)

  • BYU Prof
    Nov. 12, 2007 1:53 a.m.

    Kudos for this article. Count me among the fathers of boys in the church just counting down the days until the Church jettisons the pretentious ritual and bureaucratic nonsense of scouts and focuses instead on the sensible, streamlined, and gospel-centered Duty to God program. Also, even though I've only got sons, it infuriates me that the YM program is not parallel with the YW program in the funding that it gets and the attention that it receives. I don't doubt that Scouts is great for some boys, but it's not for mine. They have talents and healthy interests that Scouts just doesn't accommodate. And if my boys don't have good enough credentials to get a good job without "Eagle Scout" on their resume, they don't deserve the job.

  • Big Bucks for the BSA Bosses
    Nov. 12, 2007 1:22 a.m.

    You don't need the BSA to go camping, learn knots, or go on a 50 miler.

    Scott Rees: You make a good point, but I believe our Church leaders, both SLC and Ward, are not aware of the obscene salaries the BSA execs are pulling down thanks to our FOS donations. How could this ever be justified?! This DN article is causing Mormon jaws to drop. The BSA exec salary structure is unacceptable, and I look for our Church leaders to take some action, based on this new information from the DN.

  • Joel
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:55 a.m.

    I support scouting. It has blessed the lives of my father (a Life Scout), his six sons (all Eagle scouts), most of my cousins, nephews, and my own sons, and neighbors. I agree with those who say that Scouting is needed more today than ever. I believe that anything of value is worth working for and worth paying for. I liken the scouting experience to that of playing the piano. Most teenagers don't want to continue doing it, but if they do, they'll be glad they did. We need to do it right. If it's not working in our units, we need to improve. It's up to us to make this work better and the scouting program can help us do that. Keep Pullin' Ralph.

  • forever cub
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:53 a.m.

    I'll admit seeing that number was surprising but to me it was surprising in a good way. District Executives work long and hard and they usually don't get a lot of thanks.

    I volunteered to help in my district and I was called to serve in my ward. I would do anything to support my local scout program and I can't believe these negative comments. I can't believe somebody thought there was no character development in Cub Scouts?!? Shocking - if you were trained and worked the program then you should have had lots of opportunities for character development - especially when you bring in the Faith In God Program and work the two together, side by side. I hope the Scouting is always a part of the LDS church because when it's done right, it's a wonderful thing!

  • Real World?
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:40 a.m.

    Moore seems to have the mistaken idea that there is no limit to the salary potential in corporate America, and each year you can continue to get raises until you reach the $200k+ range.

    Every company I've ever worked at had salary grades with corresponding ranges. Usually, the percentage of annual raise drops once you reach the midpoint between the range. I worked at one company where most of the staff had reached their salary ceiling and no raises were given for several years in a row.

    Some of my friends at Nu Skin were in this situation, and just got laid off. Ironically, a couple were invovled in Scouting and each year took dedicated all of their vacation time to scouting for scout camp and other activities.

  • 61 years in scouting
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:33 a.m.

    Kids still need the program so I am still doing it at 81 and giving it my best effort and pocket money. We slept out in a desert wash and we listened to coyotes howl near our tent doors at 4 AM. We looked at the bright starlit sky, observed the beavers at work and watched desert rams in the nearby mountains. Most modern kids hate uniforms. They won't even wear the uniform of their contry or salute the flag. They live with cell phones, rock music and computers. Their world is "my space". Many are spoiled and their heads are full of crap.
    Many of those posting negative on this site do the same. Bring scouting back to the old days. Keep the gays and lawyers away. They have all but ruined the program. We don't need FOS either. Give your money to the local units who can put it to good use. Eagle scouts who earn the badge are among the movers and shakers in todays world..and what is wrong with a 50 miler to make a boy into a man! Get with it folks. There is no substitute for the BSA.

  • Still a supporter
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:23 a.m.

    I gave up giving to FOS about 5 yrs ago when I realized very little of the money was used to directly influence my Troop. I always wondered where that money went. I knew professional scouters were paid, but they definitely pay themselves well with donated money, that's for sure.

    Instead of FOS, I choose to donate a substantial amount to sponsor a young man in my unit to go to scout camp. That way my unit is directly affected. I feel good about that.

    On another note, I will think about donating to FOS again when I, as a scout leader in my ward, can directly solicit cash from members of the ward to fund the activities of my program that I want to do that are costly.

  • Sara
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:21 a.m.

    I lived in a very poor ward in a trailer park neighborhood a few years back. Friends of Scouting came around and collected the meager donations our ward could provide. It wasn't enough; they had to go around again. It still wasn't enough. A couple of families in the ward scraped together the required money at great sacrifice.

    When the widow's mite is collected, there is great responsibility to respect that sacrifice and use the money wisely. The scout executives quoted in this article don't understand that. In the future I will donate to organizations that respect the sacrifice that my donation represnents.

  • Scott Rees
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:21 a.m.

    Hard Hearts
    It sure hurts and sad to see so many complain about an orgianization that has done so much for our young men for so many years. But what is most disturbing is to see how many of these comments conflict with what our church leaders have asked us to do. Make no mistake that the BSA is the activity arm for our young men. But then again all of us are free to choose or not to choose what are leaders ask us to do. As for me and my house we will follow their direction until I am told diffrently.

  • Ogden
    Nov. 12, 2007 12:04 a.m.

    A comment before mentioned about those at the top earn the most money, there's no difference. If people are disgruntled about it, boycott it. Then we'll see if they continue to make the big bucks. I think the main ploy is to retain the very best leaders, but oftentimes those at the bottom are some of the best. In corporate America, including nonprofit organizations, it's not about what you know but who you know. It's not fair, but it's life.

  • Norcal 12 Year Scoutmaster Cont.
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:57 p.m.

    Sadly, I absolutely will not donate one more dime to the BSA, and I have been a very big believer in it for many, many years. This will be fascinating to watch. I'll be looking for other ways to teach my boys the same principles and truths--wherever I can find such a program.

    Mark my words...people will "vote" on the matter with their wallets, and with their "feet" by not putting their boys in this formerly great program.

    We REALLY need a replacement. I hope it can be in place for my boys in the very near future.

  • Norcal 12 Year Scoutmaster Cont.
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:57 p.m.

    Back to my opinion. My wife and I happen to be barely making ends meet. We, with our kids, live on 3% of our (yes, OUR) collective take home pay (after regular living expenses are paid--we're tight). It was a huge expense for me to buy the full class A uniform. We've stretched to donate as much as we could to FOS.
    I've stretched to meet demands of being a Scoutmaster all these years, because I love the Lord and believe in the character building component of Scouting as the activity arm of the priesthood. The problem is that that "arm" is governed by people who do not have the same interest in mind as Church members--that it is the activity arm of the priesthood. They want it to be Junior Military-esque, skills focused only, achievement and recognition focused only...not necessarily the degree of emphasis that is needed in today's world to build lifelong, honorable priesthood holders.

  • Norcal 12 year Scoutmaster
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:56 p.m.

    There is obviously a big decision to make. Huge, huge kudos to the DNews. I'll gladly donate to the DNEWS!! Honestly, I pray that Church leaders will recognize what is happening and pray for direction on the matter.

    If it were my decision...the Church should start its own program, with all the good principles that Scouting once had, but without all the irrelevant fluff. Drop the BSA and FOS--too much financial hardship, expense of precious people and financial resources, guilt, with little measurable benefit for those precious dollars donated.

    BTW--Did you know that just this past year a new requirement was added to the 1st Class requirements?
    It is a recruiting requirement!! In my opinion the real motive for this is just to keep those numbers up so as to pay for Exec Scouter salaries.

  • Cheap is Right
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:54 p.m.

    I have to agree with Cheap (above). Utah employers have long suppressed wages and gotten away with it because so many will work for anything just to live here. Meanwhile, employees complain about Utah taxes (some of the lowest in the country), Utah school efficiency (about the best in the country), and now FOS.
    BSA is a national organization. If scout executives' pay ranges are based on national market, why is that Moore's fault?
    It's not cheaper to live in Utah anymore, and the fact that the state tops so many others in terms of both bankruptcies and working mothers should probably tell us something.
    I think that Cheap has it right. Instead of chiming in with your envious comments, go ask for a raise. Maybe then you'll be able to afford to raise your kids well.

  • Homesick from WI
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:46 p.m.

    One thing people are forgetting is that the Duty to God award is a scouting program too.

    I was raised in the home of a pro Scouter. We lived paycheck to paycheck in the provo area counciel. I remember my father leaving home for earily morning meetings with volenteers before they had to go to work and then not getting home until midnight. My father was also camp director for many years and then was over all the camps and I can tell you that we never went on family vacation during the summer becasue he had to be at camp. The problem is that the leaders called in the LDS wards are not there because they want to be. My husband never got became an egale scout because of the leaders lack of interst and he was raised in MN. It saddens me to hear so many people are going to with draw from FOS when it helps to pay for the programs that are available to their boys. My father recently left Utah to be a scout excitive of his own councle after serving Utah's boys for 30 years. I hope people will change their minds soon.

  • Brian
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:46 p.m.

    I am amazed how often the comments are more informative entertaining and educational than the original article. The comments are the best thing that has happened to newspapers since movable type!

  • Former District Executive
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:40 p.m.

    I used to be a District Executive in the Great Salt Lake Council. I know Paul Moore. He is a good man and works hard. He is one of the most amazing people that I know. I did not realize that he made that much but I know how much he devotes to moving the council forward. Most people do not understand how hard the professional staff works or the amount of pressure they are under. It is very easy to get burned out doing that job, that's why I'm no longer there. Also, the entry level District Executives work long hours and don't get paid all that much money for the amount of time they put in. I would hope that after 30 plus years of all of the headaches we would want to pay the best individuals, such as Paul Moore, enough to keep them and their expertise around. I appreciate the very much misunderstood and underappreciated job they do.

  • ex-Scoutmaster
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:36 p.m.

    Her spelling errors aside, I think "professional scouters wife" is upset that this little revelation is going to blow the whole little FOS scam out of the water. If anything, the writer bent over backwards to tell the Scouts' side of the story. It's just impossible to justify that high of a salary coming from a CEO of an organization that subsists almost entirely on donations. Not taxes, like a school superintendent. Not business profits, as from a private enterprise. But donations from rank-and-file Scouters and church members who've been duped into thinking they're giving to the boy in uniform standing at their front door with his hand out, when really an inordinate share of the donation is lining the pockets of the fat cats like this lady's husband. Nobody is saying they don't work hard. We all do. We just don't all have the benefit of being handsomely paid for doing it. It's our church calling. And she has the nerve to question our sustaining of church leaders! So what if the aticle doesn't sit too well with you. Boo hoo! Try "doing it for the boys" instead.

  • thoughts continued
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:34 p.m.

    Additional thoughts continue: There are several young women in the ward willing to teach piano lessons, tend, sell items they've made, to pay for their activities. Maybe the YW could help the BS learn how to work.
    By the way, any adult who applies for a job and puts Eagle Scout on their resume, looks like an idiot. I've reviewed 100's of applicants, and believe me, it makes you look silly. Why not just include a letter of recommendation from your mom while your at it.

  • Thoughts
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:29 p.m.

    This year we did not give to Friends of Scouting. I am tired of able bodied kids and adults in my neighborhood asking for a handout. Whether its scouting or dance lessons or band or the local little league team, we've become a society of beggars. I don't like the thought that if you can't afford it, just go ask your neighbors to fund it. If you can't afford it, don't do it, or work for the money. It really bothers me, that in my ward, I've offered any young man $10-12 dollars an hour for simple yard help, and no one is willing to do it. How about having scout leaders and parents encourage their young men to work. That may help them more than knowing how to weave a basket. As an LDS member, I'm bothered by ward members seeking donations from one another. I have no ill feelings towards the scout leaders who have to do it, as I know they hate it too. In my opinion, the church should divorce themselves from boy scouts and focus on Duty to God. They should also start putting as much effort into developing young women

  • No more LDS/BSA
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:28 p.m.

    I have no problem with this gentleman's salary. He seems dedicated and well-meaning. I only have a problem with my church subsidizing his pay with its volunteer's donations.

  • mbrown
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:23 p.m.

    Speaking as the mother of four Eagle Scouts, I am finished with FOS. When I think of the sacrifices my boys' scout leaders made--all the things enumerated in previous postings--let alone all they put up with at Scout Camp, the winter hikes, the worry, taking care of sick, scared, injured, misbehaving boys, etc. all without compensation, it makes me sick to realize that at the same time the head honcho in the office was taking home $200 grand plus.

    I do hope that the Church will be offering something better and more relevant(and truly "volunteer", like the rest of our callings) for my grandsons in a few years. While my boys had fun and learned a few things for a few years, we found ourselves competing with scouting activities for family time too often. As grown men with families of their own now, my sons appear to have no nostalgia for their scouting days, no interest in maintaining the memorabilia, etc. The LAST thing they wanted when they did get their Eagle Scout Award was for it to be covered in the local paper. If scouting was not cool then, it's not going to be better for my grandsons.

  • Andy
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:18 p.m.

    I'm not impressed by the article. Look at the title and the way the argument is structured: this is not news reporting, it is a broadside shot at a scouting organization that typically does not defend itself. The tone of the article is filled with greed and slanted to appeal to self-interest. Lee, you and Joe have done a great disservice to the community and to a very worthwhile program. You do not offer any alternatives, and your tone is envious, if anything. To the no-longer-friends-of-scouting group I would ask: when you gave the service (and donations) to scouting, what were your motives? Many of you complain now about the service you gave. Is that nullified now because of a craftily-written news article? Do you regret the service now just because a news reporter needed a grabber of an article? Why didn't Lee decide to take on the thriving local drug business (meth, cocaine, heroin) instead? Because they do defend themselves. Sorry Lee, no Pulitzer.

  • BS.......a
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:16 p.m.

    I'm surprised noone has mentioned the inequities between boys and girls with regard to the subsidation of the Boy Scouts. Heck, FOS doesn't even bother to mix in some thin mints or tagalongs for my trouble. One particular scout camp experience stands out. Three years ago, we attended camp at camp Evergreen at East Fork of the Bear. This happened to be the same year that scouters there nearly burned down the entire Uinta National Forest. These Camp counselors fell just shy of being abusive to our group of scouts. At one particular merit badge tent, the counselor gave our scouts the "silent treatment" for the entire hour of the merit badge. At the waterfront the counselors picked fights and used vulgarity with our Scouts. They had taken on what could only be descibed as a " Lord of the Flies" mentality. Since then, I have been a firms believer in my church's divestiture from the BSA. The Duty to God Award is much more valuable in the long term. I don't mind people making as much money as the market can bear, Just don't count on me to bear it from here on.

  • U.S. Air Force, Eagle Scout
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:11 p.m.

    I am a proud eagle scout, and a member of the Air Force, the leadership I learned that makes me what I am today, I credit to scouting. I know that there has been alot of comments about how the boys hate scouting, many youth leaders believe in the "Spalding 2000" mission where most of the boys just show up on wed do scouting for 20 min, then play basketball, and hopefully they will end up on a mission.
    I loved the program, ended up going to direct scout camps, and when all is said and done, it is a great program that dosnt have the support from many local church leaders.
    Now with that said, I am saddened that so much of the hard earned and donated money goes to CEO type scouters. I beleive that is BSA wants to stay afloat, they need to restructure. I would gladly dontate my time as a scout exec, and I know many others who would as well.

  • Brother Juarez (Cerritos, CA)
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:10 p.m.

    Thank you for printing this article about the farce of the Friends of Scouting Drive. I once asked my local leaders for an explanation of where the donations go and none could be given.

    As a counselor in the bishopric, I am disgusted by the greedy executives who feel they deserve the pay beacuse they work 50 to 60 hours a week. My scout leaders work feverishly helping boys earn merit badges and they do not make a dime.

    It's time for the LDS church to leave the program and help our young men learn skills, gain knowledge, and build self-confidence by earning their Duty to God award.

    They can find someone else to head the FOS next year. I'm DONE!!!!!

  • Just drop it already
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:00 p.m.

    Scouting, that is. Great job to deseret news for covering this. I hope and pray that this will be a catalyst for BSA to finally be left behind. We could do much better for our youth on our own with a christ-centered, testimony and values building program.

  • sustaining
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:51 p.m.

    A few scouter's in this bog have tried to make us feel like bad members of the church because we are so upset at the unbelievably amount Scout Executives are paid. One writer on this blog said we raise our hand at General Conference to sustain leaders, who make the choice to have scouting so we should pay FOS. Indeed I did raise my hand but there is a difference in sustaining vs. obeying if obeying goes beyond personal inspiration and knowledge. We are sustaining great men who are men and they do make mistakes.

  • Cheap
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:51 p.m.

    Maybe other Utahns ought to go to work in the morning and ask for a pay raise. Maybe he's not paid too much, as you're paid too little.

  • Duty to God program?
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:47 p.m.

    Where are you all getting this high speed "Duty to God" program is so much better than scouting? I don't think you know anything about it. You're just reading other posts and agreeing.

    Google "Duty to God Award" to find the requirements. All there is is a checklist to initial off on. Sure, there is a service project required, but I think that idea is stolen from the scout handbook. If you want the Duty to God program to replace scouting, the church would need to put more time, resources, curriculum, and substance into it...It's just an award. There is nothing to it...At least scouting has structure. If you REPLACE it with scouting, you're just giving your kids another excuse to stay home, play video games, get fat, while MAYBE saying a few prayers and reading a few scriptures. Employers still ask your kids if they are eagle scouts or not. They even ask college graduates. They don't care about the duty to God award.

    Instead of cry about scouts, audit them, fix their financial problems, hire an exec to work for half of Mr. Moore's pay and carry on with scouting.

  • Den Mother
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:38 p.m.

    I work with the boy scouts every week. I love the boys, but it is a babysitting job to say the least. I see no real character building being done. Please Please Please: LDS Church DUMP THE BS of A!!! Let's put our hard work and efforts into a program that is inspired and worthwhile. We have been successful with the Young Women, (without lousy Friends of Scouting) let's do it with the Young Men!

    Most of the parents send their boys because they think it is part of being a "good" church member.

    I think our precious, UNPAID time volunteering could be better spent teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, not PRETENDING we have a testimony of the Boy Scouts of America.

    If people love the BSA, let them sign up for it in their communities, don't make volunteering a church calling.

  • Tithing and Football
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:26 p.m.

    The athletic dept at BYU does not recieve a dime of your tithing. The coaches pay is based on performance. Don't justify BSA salaries with your ignorance. Your not doing either side a favor. Typical coaches work week 5 or 6 to 8 Monday through Saturday.

    Please remember it is not what others do it is about what the Scouts are doing.

  • No Need To Be So Bitter
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:18 p.m.

    Paul Moore is an outstanding individual. He has done phenomenal things in his position and has made the SLC Council one of the premier councils in all of BSA.

    I do believe that it would be honorable of Paul Moore to be willing to take a salary adjustment. Perhaps, he should make something equivalent to the salaries of other CEOs in the state of Utah who head similar sized organizations...oh wait, there aren't any (besides leadership of the LDS church).

    I hope that people do not become so bitter that they cease to support this good cause. It would be sad to imagine that tens of thousands of boys in the state of Utah may now have a sub-standard scouting experience due poor funding and bitter leaders.

    I hope that people can look past themselves and their own wallet and see the bigger picture...

  • Professional scouter wife
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:15 p.m.

    My husband is a professional scouter, and he used to work for the SLC council. He transferred to another council for the experience. I've read a lot of these comments. First I would be concerned if you're questioning the judgment of church leadership and the prophet for their involvement in the BSA. Some of you think you have it all figured out, just because you don't make as much, and you gave some time to scouting. Most of you really don't know how the program works, or where the monies go to. Its a worthy cause, and if done right, WITH PARENTAL support, boys can learn to become men through the experience of scouting. Its not about the knots ya know. Or I guess your son's video games that you don't have to give your time to does that just as well. I'm also wondering on what grounds were the writers wanting to write an article that clearly leans toward a certain angle. Definately a negative tilt. And they sure wanted to write a real long one. I'm wondering what their adjenda was in all this. And if the money is that great, then go apply.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:14 p.m.

    Mitt Romney did not recieve a salary for running the olympics. He took what he would have been paid and donated to the olympics. Before you drag somebodys name into the financial mess that is scouting get your facts straight.

  • Scoutmaster
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:07 p.m.

    I have read all (whew!) of the comments both for and against FOS. These seem like natural logic to me:

    * Anyone claiming that he is doing Scouting "for the boys" would never accept that much money because he is taking it away from them.

    * I have, in 15 years of scouting, never had one bit of help from a professional scouter.

    * The Duty to God program is a fabulous program that better fits the needs of the boys today.

    I am sure the Professional scouters are very hard working, but I question their motivation when they take the money right out of the hands of the boys. Pay them a comfortable $75,000 and we'll see where their dedication lies.

  • Football fan
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:07 p.m.

    Leave out Bronco. What did he do to you. His success determined his salary. My ward hasn't had a successful scouting program in years. Our last Eagle Scout was 5 years ago and he can't swim. But BSA salaries have gone up. Is Moores salary tied to success or enrollement?

  • S.E. Idaho
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:03 p.m.

    "For instance, do you know how much Mitt Romney made to be the head of SLOC? Much more than Moore!"

    Not true. Romney didn't take a salary for running the Olympics. He considered it public service.

    Interesting parallel.

    Nov. 11, 2007 10:04 p.m.

    I am amazed at how many people have commented on this article with vows not to contribute to the Friends of Scouting anymore. To think that we could have a volunteer to lead the charge in this area is rather unrealistic. I would bet that if you were to do a survey and determine what other groups are paying their leaders in similar positions, we would find that the scouts are very lucky to get the leadership so cheap. Come on people. My boys have been very fortunate to have had the scouting experience. To think that we can have this all for nothing is very unrealistic. When you look at the size of the group these leaders are asked to look over in the Utah area, it is amazing. The scoutmasters that have complained in this column. I'll bet, only have had at most 30 boys. To oversee the thousands that the councils have to look over, is mind boggling. I suggest we be less critical of the boy scouts and count our blessings. Critize me if you want, I will always be greatful for the BSA.

  • Long Hours
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:02 p.m.

    As a physician I work 70-80 hours a week. I am sure that I make less than Bronco Mendenhall and fairly confident that I work longer hours than he does. This notwithstanding, I will continue to pay my tithing, recognizing that Bronco does a good job. I'd still pay tithing if he did a terrible job--and I've never attended BYU. In doing so, however, I recognize that I am supporting something important (the Church). A competitive salary is important to get good people. There is no use in throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I will continue to support scouting, go on campouts, and be a merit badge counselor. My time is very precious, but I recognize the bottom line--that Scouting helps young men who embrace it.

  • I am done
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:01 p.m.

    What a sick waste. Just think of all the good that could be done with the resources wards put into scouting if it were Duty to God focused. I long for the day that getting a Duty to God award is the expectation and not an Eagle Scout award.

  • Scott the Scout
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:55 p.m.

    Scouts is a good program. Tied to the LDS church causes a couple problems but I have worked through them. However I would prefer not to have anything to do with Scouts. Don't confuse that with YM. The church has a better program and focus. It also cost less money and I have to spend less time on training. There is no woodchip badge for learning, knowing, and teaching gospel principles. Without compulsary means we can do more for our YM and pay a lot less as well

  • Scouting Shmouting
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:45 p.m.

    That pay to those scouting officials is absolutely vulgar. I will never give them another dime. All these years I thought everything was voluntary up to the top officials receiving minimal compensation for their time. To think our contributions go into the vast and deep pockets of the officials first for such gross overpayment is absurd. The church just needs to run it voluntarily for it's boys and cut off those arrogant and thieving officials. They should be ashamed.

  • Football vs. Scouting?
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:43 p.m.

    Football provides much more tangible leadership development than scouting.

    I have no problem paying for BYU tickets because I get something out of it PLUS it helps develop leadership skills in the players!

    Bronco deserves his salary because he fills the stadium and brings in many millions of dollars.

    Paul Moore is not as effective. What real value is the Scouting program providing to the local communities?

    Perhaps the local Councils need new leadership?

    Nov. 11, 2007 9:37 p.m.

    Wow, you all are a bunch of whiners up there in Utah,for shame! Look at the anger and indignation that the adversary has let fester in your hearts. You should be so grateful for what you have and what scouting has done for many of you.

    I guess you have nothing else better to focus your attention on and that all is well in Zion. Stop complaining about a "dated" scouting program and find ways to reach your youth through the everlasting principles of scouting. The scouting program is MORE RELEVANT TODAY THAN EVER shame on you prideful petty fools who look to others and compare what they have with what you don't, when will it every me little enough $50K? Quit your whining and get to work. We have the precious souls of YM on the line and we can't afford you barnacles on the ship of progress.

    Regards from a saddened YM pres in Florida.

  • Exploitation?
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:37 p.m.

    Everybody is over-reacting.

    The BSA has been using volunteers for decades so that they can keep costs down. Volunteers keep the costs down in many organizations.

    For instance, do you know how much Mitt Romney made to be the head of SLOC? Much more than Moore! But he made the Winter Olympics financially successful by using volunteers!

    Did any of you volunteers complain that you were being exploited then? I doubt it.

    And the LDS Church uses volunteers more extensively than probably any other charitable organization in the country! But you don't hear people complaining about being exploited by the Church leaders.

    A little reason can go a long way in understanding why executives in non-profit organizations are so well-compensated.

  • Scouting is Fun
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:34 p.m.

    Most folks don't know how BSA is run. That $50 that you pay your troop doesn't go to the Council. About $10 goes to National and the rest stays with the troop. Councils have to raise every single penny that they need. Much of that comes from FOS. What does FOS buy? It pays the salaries of the professionals, it pays for the camps, it pays for the staff that keeps the records.

    Who decided on the salary for the SE? Volunteers did. The council board and the charter organizations signed off on it.

    As for services, not all services are free. Fire and police are county services but they aren't free. The firemen and policemen are paid, and at the upper ranks paid rather well.

    What does a council provide? It costs about $35 or $40 per Scout to run a Council. That pays for camps and other facilities, publications, the District executives, record keeping.

    Also, compared to a college coach, he isn't making squat and he's doing something good for society in general.

  • Dave B.
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:30 p.m.

    I agree there are tensions between the BSA and the LDS Church regarding Scouting. The Church really doesn't do the Scouting program right.

    I think the Church should separate itself from Scouting... and I will continue with Scouting.

  • S.E. Idaho
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:27 p.m.

    Mr. Moore makes more than 90% of doctors, 90% of lawyers and 90% of private sector CEOS. For running a voluntary, not-for-profit organization.

    Folks, can't be defended.

  • Oh come On!
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:27 p.m.

    Many of us are jumping to conclusions. The most important thing to remember is that scouting is fundamentally good. We should be careful to avoid anything that detracts from this. It was an important part of growing up for me and I see it helping many of the kids in my ward today. Keep in mind that these executives devote a great deal of time, energy, and talent. Limiting one's support to scouting based on this article will only serve to fill their shoes with people who are not as talented, dedicated, and capable. These leaders really have something to offer--and that is why they are paid what they are paid. They are not merely scoutmasters, of which I am afraid most of us are jumping to such a comparison. Their position is not a church calling that many consider baby-sitting. It is easy to overlook the logistics behind such a massive organization--insurance, utilities, property, budgeting, education. The list goes on and on. Church aside, nowadays I feel we would be hard pressed to find any other national organization with such a strong committment to strong moral values, civic education, and self mastery as the Boys Scouts of America.

  • Non-Utah Scouting
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:27 p.m.

    I have been a very active volunteer Scouter for over two decades in Southern California. I strive to take it seriously and do it right. I completed Woodbadge training and found much of it to be a great experience.

    But most scouting in the LDS Church is a joke, and everybody knows it. Because the leaders are "called," few of them have a real interest. They come in and bide their time until they can get released. They don't bother with uniforms 90% of the time. They don't take it seriously. They don't follow the rules or stick with the program.

    And because the Church has strictly aligned it with the priesthood quorums, more often than not, the Scouting troops are not the proper size. Without the right numbers, you cannot do the program right.

    When it is done right, it is well worth the price for a quality executive to ensure it is done right. When not done right, it is a waste of time.

    I love Scouting, and admire Baden Powell as a true visionary leader. It is a tragedy that the Church's "support" for Scouting has been more of a curse than a blessing.

  • C.O.R.
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:22 p.m.

    I was at a scouting roundtable meeting a few months ago (monthly training for all scout and YM leaders). I had to sit there and listen to a scout exec complain that the LDS troops and their leaders are the worst trained in the country because of high turnover and that we don't follow the "patrol method". I raised my hand and said that was because we (LDS priesthood leaders) think more in terms of the priesthood quorum than the scout patrol. She really lit into me for not understanding "the program". I looked down at my watch and noticed it was 9 pm, and thought of my wife at home putting our kids to bed, wishing I was there.

    I wish the church would drop the official endorsement of BSA, and focus on priesthood objectives. Everything that is good about scouting: the values, camping, exposure to various disciplines, etc., we can accomplish without the overhead of the BSA. For me, the bureaucracy of scouting creates major stress, especially when I see that for most LDS boys these days, it's compulsatory. Why not separate the two issues? Let's see if the BSA is strong enough to stand on it's own.

  • moderator
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:19 p.m.

    Personal note to "anonymous"
    Your comments were not posted because a) they were off topic, b) you are incorrect with your facts and c) they are offensive.

  • Tricked
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:17 p.m.

    Church policy allows for 1 fundraiser a year. The boys sell flags or something and that money goes to fund the their activities for their year.

    Then against stated policy boys and leaders do another fund raiser. For what? Not any more. Not in my ward.

    BSA salaries should be tied to services and materials sold. They should not pimp out kids, parents, or volunteer leaders to beg for their salaries.

    I feel bad for the kids next year when they try and earn some money for an honest service like flags and people will have this article in their minds.

  • Judgment Day for BSA
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:15 p.m.

    To Ohio Scouter | 8:25 p.m.

    The difference is that lawyers, doctors, etc. are PROFESSIONALS who are involved in FOR PROFIT endeavors - explicitly providing goods and services in exchange for money.

    Scouting is supposed to be NOT-FOR-PROFIT. That is why they get the tax advantages (the same tax advantages Churches get) and the fund-raisers and such.

    There are hundreds if not thousands of well-qualified scouters who would do on a part-time or volunteer basis what Paul Moore does full-time for a breath-taking salary!

    It is accountability time. The BSA must re-evaluate their business model and come up with more efficient ways of serving their mission: " prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

    Otherwise, that mission can and will be served by other organizations in a much more efficient way.

  • Fireside Chat
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:03 p.m.

    I have met Paul Moore many times. Nice guy.

    But I had no idea he was pulling down that kind of cash!

    These non-profit organizations are big business for some people! Amazing!

    Next time I see him I will ask how he can justify it - you know, Off the record, over a campfire where we can talk openly and honestly.

  • Zion Prospereth!
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:02 p.m.

    All you who are putting your foot down, you better also cancel your BYU football season tickets, because you know how much the head coach makes. Is scouting a just cause--a worthy expense--or not? Why do we feel better about paying for videos or vacations or a boat than for helping boys develop character? For what will we sacrifice?

  • David
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:02 p.m.

    More from David

    I just sent our letters to almost 100 families, including old widows in their 80s & 90s asking for Friends of Scouting donations. In one week, I have collected over $1000 dollars in checks, and thats only 40% of my quota.

    Mr. Paul Moore has been paid all these years climbing the ranks of the BSA participating in Boy Scouting. To me its not only his job, but also his hobby. I have hobbies too, but I dont have old women paying me with money they struggle manage for their day-to-day existence in order to support any of my hobbies.

    Mr. Moore, you and your fellow BSA executives should not sleep well tonight, or any future night for the serious ethical crimes you have all perpetrated on donors. I expected to learn some day that BSA executive were highly paid, but this is beyond reason and good conscience.

    Im done with FOS for good. I believe I shall return all the donations I have received with a copy of this Deseret News article to each donor and tell them to reconsider their donation before I turn it in to BSA.

  • Camp Hunter
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:59 p.m.

    Okay, listen. I grew up at Camp Hunt on Bear Lake. Both my parents worked there. I recently drove by there and was shocked to see the conditions. Almost all of the mature trees are dead and now need to be removed as they are a huge liability if they fall on someone (actually a limb did break off a tree and fell on a girl in a tent during a girls camp and broke her leg). This will cost mucho deniro (and probably some American dollars as well). Well, they had a nice person offer to go through the camp and cut out the diseased trees years ago for about $10,000 but they turned it down. Now it will cost them more to clear out and replant the trees. Good management of resources eh? I seriously hope these are not the same people making these large sums of money.

  • David
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:58 p.m.

    I am the Chairman of the Scout Committee in my LDS Ward. We started our Friends of Scouting drive last Sunday.

    I spent about 6 hours of my own time organizing the fund raising efforts. I am also asked to attend training and a myriad of other meetings during my personal time. Further, I very often work 60 hours a week at my own job at which I make significantly less than 200K per year! I am so thoroughly disgusted by the information contained in this article; Im not sure exactly what my next step will be.

    Whats even more maddening is the fact that by virtually any competitive business management standard the Greater Salt Lake Scout Council is very poorly operated. Visit their offices and you will notice poorly maintained offices, extremely out dated methods of record keeping and many staff employees not doing much work. The head count is appalling for the lack of work that is done. It wasnt until about 15 months ago that they even got a website to do any type of interactive functions, further, its poorly designed and technically unreliable!

  • Sacrifice?
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:57 p.m.

    No scout exe. has ever blessed the life of a boy in my troop

  • S. Idaho
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:55 p.m.

    How about a new program --- Friends of Scout Executives.

    Supporters of these folks can go around and ask folks to donate to pay the Scout executives. Scout executives get every dime that is raised.

    Hmmm. Wonder how much would be raised --- now?

  • Sick of Scouting
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:51 p.m.

    The best thing that keeps males out of trouble is NOT the BSA, but rather an intact traditional family, with a loving mother and father, teaching righteous principles.

    If the Church drops the BSA scouting program, the sky will not fall in. Those of you who love the BSA and want to keep funding the mega salaries of the BSA executives, can still do so. Your boys can join a non-Mormon scout troop, or even start one, sponsored by a business, or some other entity. Don't FORCE or put a guilt trip on every ward member to support the BSA. Not all of us agree with you! This article is the last straw, and my long time support of the BSA ends today.

  • Professional Fundraiser
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:50 p.m.

    If the consequence of all is that Friends of Scouting is gutted or goes away, there's only two results:

    1). Scouting programs will be scaled back.
    2). The Councils will start hiring professional fundraisers. Probably a goodly number of them. They will make $35,000 to $55,000 a year. They will raise on average perhaps five or six times their salary. And if that happens the fundraising ratios for the Councils start looking very wasteful.

    Friends of Scouting is a very efficient way to raise money. Whatever comes next will be far less so.

  • Polly
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:50 p.m.

    What a racket! Let's do our own program; we're doing all the real work now anyway. We provide the boys, the facilities, the volunteers, and the funds. Currently, were only getting overpriced badges and magazines in return. An LDS boys program would keep precious resources of time and money focused on the kids, not a bloated hierarchy of overpaid "executives." Loving ward members, teachers, and leaders change kids' lives - not Roy Williams.

  • The identiies of the defenders
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:43 p.m.

    ... are none other than the wives and families of the executives themselves, I'll bet. I wonder if Paul had to pay for the uniform he's wearing in the picture. The shirt and patches alone would cost nearly $100 for the average peon like me, but I'll bet he gets a nice discount for being the top dog. After all he works so much harder than the rest of us poor, ignorant rank-and-file guys in the trenches, doing all the menial tasks like taking our Scouts camping and holding troop meetings with them on a weekly basis. I think it's time for a major critical audit -- the LDS Church needs to hold Scouting accountable for where all the money is going.

  • Marlene
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:40 p.m.

    I was a volunterr in the BSA for 16 years. I never once was paid for all my gas hauling boys to and fro to camp, activities, etc. I even had to buy most of the boys awards because at the time there wasn't a Scout fund in my ward. When I found out recently that the top executive in the Grand Teton Peaks Council in Idaho Falls made over $100,000 a year it disgusted me. The volunteers are the ones that do all the work. I am divorced and live on a fixed income and when they come around collecting for the scouting program I had to tell them I have none to give which is the truth. I live on my Social Security now and if I gave to the fund it would mean not paying a bill or buying groceries. Let those big high-paying executives take a cut in pay so the wards are not assessed so much money.

  • I'm done with FOS
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:35 p.m.

    I love scouting, been in it for years...I won't pay another dime to FOS until he cuts his salary by 50%

  • Ashamed
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:33 p.m.

    To think that I have gone to families in my neighborhood and asked them to donate to FOS knowing that they are struggling financialy, convincing them that the money they donate goes to local offices and the local troops to help our youth; when the national executive is making nearly a MILLION dollars!! Why in the world do we as volunteer scout leaders have to pay out of our pocket to buy badges for our scouts when they advance or not having decent equipment for campouts. I AM SICK!!

    BSA YOU BETTER EXPLAIN YOURSELVES!!!! And saying that it fits the budget they manage and the number of scouts under them does not work for me!!

  • RIP to FOS
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:32 p.m.

    They better not try to resurrect the FOS program under some other clever sounding name. Just give it up and find another way to pay for the operating expenses, including the too-high exec salaries. Trim the fat and try to keep a greater share of the money at the local level, where it's actually helping the boys directly.

  • Ohio Scouter
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:25 p.m.

    It's interesting to read the many comments. A couple of observations:

    1. You get what you pay for. While the salaries may seem high, they are comparable or even lower than many other occupations that involve managing/steering groups as large as Scout Districts and Councils.

    Also, statistics can make any point you want to make. The writer compares Mr. Moore's (and other Scouters, also) salary to the average salary in Utah for physicians and attorneys -- what he should have done is compared the average salary of attorneys and physicians with 20+ years of experience to Mr. Moore's salary. I would bet that Mr. Moore's salary would suddenly seem low -- and yet many physicians/attorneys with 20+ years of experience aren't working 60 - 80 hours per week like scout executives.

    2. For those who think the LDS church should "get with the times" and support a program that is more in line with the interests of today's youth... Did you raise your hand in the last General Conference to sustain your leaders? If so, then do what you said you would do (support/sustain the church leaders) and work to make the scouting program successful for the youth.

  • Getting Old
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:26 p.m.

    There's obviously two issues being discussed here:

    1. Compensation of the SL council's CEO.
    2. Is scouting the best program for the development of young men in the church?

    The influence my scout leaders had on me during the formative teenage years were important in my personal growth. While I do not use knots and survival skills working in private equity I am grateful for the discipline I learned working towards the achievement of Eagle Scout.

    That being said, I'm sure there are many capable executives that could run the council for less than Moore. This discussion will help clarify what is fair compensation for the council's CEO.

    Finally, let's be constructive and intelligent about our reasoning and opinions. I sure get sick of all the whining.

  • Steve T
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:18 p.m.

    "Do you think that these Scout Excutives (sic) should work for free??"

    No. But, should they be paid obscenely from small donations? ABSOLUTELY NOT. And, personally, I think defending this is kind of sick.

    P.S. Wouldn't you love to know the identity of some of the defenders of the bloated salaries?

  • Some balance
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:16 p.m.

    I have been somewhat familiar with a number of Scouting District Executives (those Professional Scouters on the front lines serving the units) and they have college educations and make less than school teachers I know with similar years of experience and they work 12 months a year and often long hours. I sure wouldn't work for what they receive. As for the Council CEO, for the employees he is responsible for and the many facets of the job, I don't think a Council CEO is overpaid at 150-200K. I plan to continue my Friends of Scouting donation and to keep volunteering.

  • Dave
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:04 p.m.

    This is a disgusting revelation! Until it is corrected, many of us will respectfully refuse to participate in FOS.

  • Fall-out coming..........
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:55 p.m.

    Scouting is based on service. Not greed.

    Look at the countless hours from parents, leaders, and scouts. Who receive zero monetary compensation.

    We live in a day of double-standards.

    Say good bye to FOS. That scam is over.

  • Thaddeus
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:38 p.m.

    This Council is only ONE of MANY that are having huge PR problems with their "executive compensation" issues. The Orange County, California Council's exec, regularly makes almost THREE times what Moore does! Also, there are many "issues" of financial impropriety with the recent Bahamain "leadership conference" wherein the BSA "leadership" treated themselves to rather lavish resort "amenities" all paid for with some of the donations from FOS. And YES! Trapper Trails, Great Salt Lake, and National Park Council(Provo) execs were ALL there as well. PErhaps it's time to re-evaluate the financial "accounting" that is put out by each of our Councils. I am stellarly unimpresse with the condition of several Trapper Trails Council camps, their Camp Staff, and their utterly disgusting food. It's time for us to tighten up the purse strings and FORCE the COuncils to provide quality over Executive compensation.

  • I am Sickened...
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:37 p.m. see all the comments from SELFISH and Self-rightous people in this blog. Do you think that these Scout Excutives should work for free?? This is their full-time job and often an 80 hour per week job at that. When those boys come knockin at my door I think I will double the amount I pay, because there are too many selfish people in the Church and out of it, who cannot seem to support an organization that is still the best thing out there to keep boys and young men out of gangs and out of trouble. If the Boy Scouts disappear, it will prove that this nation and its people are becoming too darn selfish, and heaven help us then!!!!

  • Steve
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:17 p.m.

    The Red Cross raises $5.5 billion per year. Their CEO gets %500,000, ie. roughly $1 in pay per $11,000 raised.

    The United Way raises $4.07 billion per year. Their CEO gets $350,000, ie. roughly $1 per $11,800 raised.

    The Boys Scouts of America raises $175 million per year. Their CEO gets over $900,000 or $1 per $195 raised.

    In other words, the BSA CEO's salary is 55 times more generous on a salary to dollars raised basis.

  • A Solution:
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:51 p.m.

    It's obvious; the salary is excessive.

    But the real question is whether the Church should be in the Scouting business.

    My ten cents? Either,
    a) drop BSA altogether and concentrate on D2G,
    b) Limit Church scouting to 11-, 12-, and 13-year olds only. Then get on with life and YM's. If you (or, rather, your mom) don't "get your Eagle" by age 14, too bad.

  • An all-time high?
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:37 p.m.

    What a "comment"-response to something as mundane as Boy Scouts of America!!
    (Kudos to Lee Davidson and Editor Joe Cannon.)

    Why?? Because literally millions of volunteer hours are spent in church scouting callings.
    Many of those volunteers recognize the problems with the LDS Church trying to run its own version of Scouting. Yet we put up with it, and are usually happy to do so. We believe in the Values of Scouting.

    But!! Mention a 6-figure salary combined with this opportunity to post and, Oila! you have a monster on your hands!! Isn't this a clue that something is wrong?

    Note to Scout Executives:
    Don't Worry. If you are as qualified for your jobs as you say you are, you will have no trouble finding 6-figure jobs in other industries around town if FOS goes down the tubes.

  • Jimmy
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:37 p.m.

    Look at the lives that are touched. Don't be angry and say you will stop supporting friends of scouting becuase you aren't making as much money as they are. YOU, my friend, will never,ever have such an impact as they do. I love scouting and everything that it has done for me, do not be upset becuase you had a poor experience with scouting. Scouting effects everyone. These people are doing so much more then you think. BSA you have and always will have my support. THANK YOU, THANK YOU THANK YOU.

  • Scoutmaster in sandy
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:25 p.m.

    I have served as a scoutmaster in both Utah and out of State in both the webelos and boy scouts. During my 5 years of cumulative service I don't EVER recall meeting a single professional scout executive in any capacity. My interaction was with the Bishop, primary pres, or other young men leaders. The most memorable camps as both a leader and as an eagle scout were always trips to the mountains on our own as opposed to organized scout camps. I for one do NOT see the value added by professional scouts to a program run almost in its entirety by volunteers within a highly organized church. Perhaps the BSA executives do work hard and can justify their pay- I don't really know. I do feel, however, that within the LDS context, the contribution of "professional scouters" is highly overrated.

  • Joe
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:20 p.m.

    Years ago I was a finance clerk. During the first scouting drive the bishop complained to me that he was under more pressure to reach the FOS quota than in getting ward members to pay tithing or give fast offering.

  • Coaches
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:07 p.m.

    I heard about this a few years ago. I quit donating then. I now give directly to our own kids in the ward so I know the money goes where I want it to go. I coach public school sports for about 6 months out of the year with regular season, traveling to camps and volunteering to help with clinics, all for about $2500 total. I'll compare my time with kids with theirs any day. Tears in his eyes! Give me a break! I'm not big into scouts anyway and have watched several mothers get their eagles.

  • About time this is discussed!
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:01 p.m.

    This debate demonstrates a real problem with lots of passion on both sides.
    Here are my questions/comments:
    * Scouting is another layer of bureaucracy.
    * Can you really run two programs, YM and Scouting, well? Rarely does this happen.
    * I ran two troops East of the Mississippi. Good kids, good parents. But next to impossible to run a YM program and a Scouting program with limited resources. Half the time we went camping without filing the proper "Tour Permit". Too much crap already on my plate.
    * "Do one thing; do it well."
    * I have two sons that are Eagle scouts; it's great on their resume. But too often the program comes before the boy.
    * Scout Committee? You try to run one with parents whose kids could care less about Scouting.
    * Surely we can have a single program that meshes the best of both organizations.
    * Kids don't care if you were their Scoutmaster; they care if you took time to take them camping. That's it. That's what matters. Bye-bye BSA.

  • Mike
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:02 p.m.

    I don't mind donating to Scouting. I am an Eagle Scout and love the program.

    I do think they can get some super scouter to do the job for a lot less and still have a great program. Greedy pigs get slaughtered. Off you go.

    The only way I am going to stop donating is if they let in the Homosexuals.

  • FOS No more
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:53 p.m.

    I'm gladd the truth came out about FOS- I'll be donating no more!!

  • Most of you are off base
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:52 p.m.

    Should Mr. Moore's and other senior exec's salaries be reevaluated? Yes.

    However, those of you choosing to use this story as an opportunity to justify your poor scouting experience, or relieve guilt for your unwillingness to contribute to FOS are way off base.

    Scouting is a great program when it is done correctly. Those of you that clamor for the end of scouting and complain about FOS have likely never attempted to do it right. Do you really think another program designed to replace scouting would be any more successful if you were unwilling to sacrifice time and money for the boys?

    My scouting experience shaped my life for good in so many ways I can not write them all here. If we really cared about the boys we'd be trying to do scouting right, and not attempting to tear it down because it requires time, sacrifice, and has some imperfections.

    Next time you think about your negative scouting experience, ask yourself it you (or they) were really doing it right. If the answer is no, then it's no reason to discredit what scouting is and does.

  • Utah Mom
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:51 p.m.

    Most of the boys I know in the scouting program do not even want to be there! Parents make them become part of scouts probably because they don't want to be known as the parent who did not follow what they were told to do.
    Most, if not all, of the teenagers in high school who are scouts are totally embarrassed that they are in Boy Scouts and would never wear a uniform in public. Even on service projects they don't want to wear a uniform because they are embarrassed but the parents MAKE them do it. My gosh, give you son a chance and let him decide if he wants to be a Boy Scout or not, not MAKE him do it. Many Eagle scouts come from Utah again because as "From Scouting Program" said "I expect my boys to become eagle scouts!!" What about asking what the boys want and not want you, as the parent want? Older boys ARE EMBARRASSED TO BE BOY SCOUTS!!!!!! But they do it because good old mom and dad say they have to.
    Ever wonder how many Eagle Scouts are in jail right now? I do!!!

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:49 p.m.

    If it is about the money Mr. Moore than give it back. These salaries should by itself destroy the BSA. I will never support friends of scouting ever!!

  • DougS
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:49 p.m.

    "Office Services". Other comments have already described the great value BSA is getting in this regard.

    "National Fees". Which go to what, exactly?

    Sorry, Arc, but the "expenses" you provide only reinforce the view of the BSA as a large, inefficient, bloated organization.

  • Loretta J.
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:49 p.m.

    It is clear that many comments that have been posted have been written by people who have no idea what professional Scout Executives do. It seems like people believe that the volunteers do all the work and running around while the Executive just sits in his office with a phone to his ear ordering people around.
    As the wife of a Professional Scout Executive (who makes no where near $100,000) I can say that I see first hand all of the hard work, stress, sacrifice, and long hours that are required to keep the Boy Scout Program running properly. As great as it sounds to have the program run entirely by volunteers it is just not possible. No one could dedicate the amount of energy and time needed to replace a professional Scouter and still manage to support their family in a full time job.
    I just want to point out this is probably not news to Church Presidency because they sit on many of the National Boards of the Boy Scouts.
    Scouting is a great program and as long as the church supports it we will too. The church wouldn't support Scouting if they didn't believe in it.

  • DougS
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:48 p.m.

    "Training for youth leaders: Silver Moccasin, On-Belay, etc."--again, the youth leaders are volunteers; the people doing the training are already getting paid. Why this insistence on double-dipping?

    "Support to chartered organizations" Name them.

    "Monthly roundtables and program ideas". Why do you need monthly meetings? You aren't developing new merit badges monthly. The program doesn't change THAT much--at least, not in a sense that it affects the experience of the boys.

    "Community Service: Scouting for Food, Youth Protection Training, and Drug Awareness". Volunteer activities. What part of "YOU DO NOT PAY VOLUNTEERS" are we not getting here?

    "Provide camper insurance at council and district sponsored events". Why is it that I have to go ten spaces down your list to find a legitimate expense?

    "Community Relations". What does this mean? Why is it necessary?

    "Provide blanket coverage of liability to protect leaders and organizations". OK. So far we've reviewed twelve expenses. Two are legitimate. Congratulations.

    "Council Shops: Places where leaders can secure Scouting supplies and resource materials". For which they pay through the nose.

    "Administrative support for Camporees, Klondike Derbys, and Cuborees." And this can't be done by your full-time professionals because . . .

  • DougS
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:43 p.m.

    Thanks for the stats, Arc. Let's look at them a little more closely, shall we?

    "Programs and Services"--Yeah. Isn't that where the other $98 for those Defense Department hammers went, too?

    "Maintanence and improvements for 18 camps at 7 facilities". Hmm. And the hundred-plus dollars that the scouts themselves have to pay to go to camp go towards . . . what, exactly?

    "Special programs and activities: Scout-O-Rama, Jamborees, and much more". Yes. Activities for which, again, the Scouts have to pay if they wish to participate.

    "Professional Scouters to support units, districts and the council" Support how, exactly?

    "Training for volunteers: Fast Start, Basic and Wood Badge". If they're volunteers, you shouldn't have to pay them. And the people doing the training are already paid employees--do you pay them twice?

  • Not an Eagle!
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:44 p.m.

    I would never hire an eagle scout to work for me! The program is corrupt from the ground up.

    This article only proves it.

    Why in the world does the LDS Church support such a bogus organization?

  • Leadership 101
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:30 p.m.

    The BSA provides excellent leadership training programs.

    And the First principle of leadership that is taught is that it is OK to exploit volunteers and cheap labor in order to grow your organization and receive a fat compensation package!

    That is true Leadership! Why does everyone have a problem with that? The LDS church supports it!

  • Say What?
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:26 p.m.

    NEVER again will I donate to the Scouts!

  • Kevin
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:23 p.m.

    Great reporting.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:22 p.m.

    Where is the money for the young women of the Church? They are excluded from Scouting - at very least, the Church does not support young women in scouting the way it does young men - and the lion's share of the Ward budgets go to the young men rather than the young women!

    Why this discrimination?

  • Steve
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:06 p.m.

    As mentioned above, we really need to give credit to the Deseret News for bringing this story forth. This was really gutsy. I'm sure that Mr. Cannon & Mr. Davidson had to overcome some who thought that anything negative against BSA was wrong.

    I suspect this will appear nationally the next few days. And, it should.

    BSA, time to clean up your act. If you don't, the money is going to dry up. And, that is not bad.

  • Funny thought
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:06 p.m.

    I'll bet whoever hit up writer Lee Davidson for his FOS contribution wishes he hadn't done so. If this story doesn't kill the program outright, it will at least cripple it terribly. Good! Take it out of the poobah's paychecks, and let them do their own fundraising from now on. Any funds raised at the local level by the Scoutmasters and their boys, should stay at that level for the troop's operating expenses.

    What will probably happen is that the Boy Scouts will double the already high prices that they charge for everything, from uniforms to patches, books, materials, camp fees, registration, etc. In other words, we'll all end up paying the poobahs anyway.

    I got a lot of positive things out of Scouting and am an Eagle Scout myself. I just disagree with FOS and the high salaries that the top leaders are making.

  • arc
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:06 p.m.

    32% comes from FOS 40.5% comes from camping and activity fees.

    Where the money goes 3% to Paul. 97% to:

    Programs and Services
    Maintanence and improvements for 18 camps at 7 facilities
    Special programs and activities: Scout-O-Rama, Jamborees, and much more
    Professional Scouters to support units, districts and the council
    Training for volunteers: Fast Start, Basic and Wood Badge
    Training for youth leaders: Silver Moccasin, On-Belay, etc.
    Support to chartered organizations
    Monthly roundtables and program ideas
    Community Service: Scouting for Food, Youth Protection Training, and Drug Awareness
    Provide camper insurance at council and district sponsored events
    Community Relations
    Provide blanket coverage of liability to protect leaders and organizations
    Council Shops: Places where leaders can secure Scouting supplies and resource materials
    Administrative support for Camporees, Klondike Derbys, and Cuborees

    Office Services

    National Fees

  • My earlier comment ...
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:57 p.m.

    I made a comment earlier that didn't get posted for some reason, so I'll try to recap what I said. I'm an Eagle Scout and former Scoutmaster with several years experience, and I am somewhat disillusioned by the excessive pay that the top-tier and even mid-level Scout executives seem to be getting. All the services that the council provides we have to pay for anyway, such as merit badge partches, training literature, uniforms, etc. People are nickel and dimed to death, and when FOS time rolls around, they are tricked into thinking they're donating to the boys when instead it's going to pay those ridiculously high salaries for the professional Scouters. Scouting is getting away from its primary focus -- providing fun and educational opportunities for the boys. I never have liked the bureaucracy, the red tape, the forms you have to fill out. Seems like the LDS Church can put some pressure on the Scouts here to either bring the salaries down to a reasonable level, or do their own fundraising work without pressuring the volunteers and boys to do it for them. Any money raised by the boys should stay in their troops.

  • Been there, done that
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:57 p.m.

    I have devoted 20 years of my adult life to Scouting in a variety of positions ranging from Assistant Scoutmaster to (volunteer)Adult Training Coordinator. While some troops considered weekly ward house basketball to be a valid scout activity, I ran successful troops that provided quality experiences for boys and helped produce many qualified Eagle scouts. I did it at the sacrifice of my personal time and many thousands of out-of-pocket dollars. And I did it knowing that others at the executive level were getting rich while I was merely fulfilling a calling from my bishop. Fund raising only took time away from running a quality troop. Even parents didn't always do their part. I have no personal regrets, but I stopped donating to Friends of Scouting and The Sustaining Membership Enrollment years ago. I once thought that only the guys in the crystal palace in Texas were profiting , but now we learn that even the local execs are skimming the gravy of this alleged "volunteer" organization. Sorry, but the BSA will never see another dime of my money. Is this how you want your donation dollars spent?

  • West Coast
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:55 p.m.

    Let's face it, scouts is embarrassing for the youth (Believe me, it ain't cool to be a boy scout in a modernday high school), an embarrassment to the church (molestation scandals, lawsuits, etc.), and a collossal waste of time for the poor souls who have to babysit a bunch of teenage boys. I learned NOTHING in scouts, I repeat: NOTHING. Unless you consider fire-starting skills, a totin' chip, and tying a bowline an important skill for our youth who confront gangs, pornography, drugs, etc on a daily basis.

    To all who claim that the quitting scouts will bring upon us a host of social ills; have you considered what YM/YW could do if funded, staffed, and supported like scouts.

  • ann louise
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:45 p.m.

    I am so happy to see the paper run a story like this. Kudos to the DMN.

  • Public Servant
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:43 p.m.

    One thing is clear, BSA is more similar to a for-profit business. Many employees at all levels of government manage comparable budgets, supervise large staffs, raise funds through grants and volunteerism, and put in many extra night and weekend hours for far less salary. Well-educated public servants sacrifice for a higher purpose. BSA is a worthy institute, but perhaps they need to reexamine their corporate structure and purpose.

  • Determined
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:41 p.m.

    It is absolutely immoral for leaders of a non-profit organization such as Scouting to be compensated in these obscene amounts.

    Families struggling to make ends meet on less than 50,000/year give generously to the Scouting program even though they have no sons or daughters in scouting.

    And this is how the money is used?

    I am appalled and will never support the FOS drive again.

  • arc
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:40 p.m.

    I am an eagle scout, knowing how much good is done via scouting, supporting the FOS drive is important. 83% or more goes for scounting services. I donated after reading this article on purpose. Most involved don't get paid a dime. The new exec. is better than what we had before. That being said, he is over paid for this area. We have dozens of scouters with more experience and training, education that grew up locally and have served here that would do it for 1/2. We need to pay some of the other full time staff more and Paul less. If he doesn't go for it, than we have our chance.

    Donate to FOS, the scouts need it, even if Paul doesn't deserve it.

  • LDS family in California
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:39 p.m.

    Continued from previous post ----

    I do not think that the Church should REQUIRE a ward to donate a certain amount to FOS, and particularly put that burden on the Bishop, who is already putting in many many hours of service, and being away from his family. He already attends all the ward activities, usually goes to camp and other outings with the young men - and in our ward with the Young Women too!

    It sounds like in Utah there is a lot of pressure put on the local wards to meet a high FOS goal. Isn't it supposed to be purely voluntary?

    The ward members are already donating to the local pack, and being supportive of fund-raisers for both the Young Men and Young Women camps and other activities. In addition to tithing, fast offering, humanitarian donations, etc., we also provide money, food, materials, supplies, labor etc. for all ward activities, because the budget cannot cover everything.

    The LDS church needs to look at a more inclusive young men program. Still offer support and meeting facilities etc., but not the only thing offered and backed by the Church.

  • In Tooele
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:34 p.m.

    It makes me sad to see how many people have complained about FOS because they did not understand where the donation went.

    I am from Canada, living in Tooele. Every year my Dad was asked to spend $50 per boy. I think of his sacrifice and wonder if any one who has complained would sacrifice as he did to send 4 boys through the program. That is $200 a year.

    Yes, You are paying their salaries. IT is a SACRIFICE. It takes professionals to run the program. They spend 60+ hours a week. I know some professionals who have callings in Bishoprics and Stake Presidencies. Those who are scouting professionals are required to donate each year.

    Those who have complained, if you get your wish, and you squash Scouting will find that the world will be a quagmire of your own creation. I for one will stand where the LDS church leaders asked me to stand and will support Scouting and Friends of Scouting each year.

  • Naive
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:33 p.m.

    Thanks to Lee Davidson and Editor Joe Cannon for such an insightful, hard hitting article. Obviously, I have been totally clueless, ignorant or naive as I've faithfully supported, endorsed and even been an active participant in Friends of Scouting for many years. This will no longer be the case after this expose. Many other comments already stated express many of the same feelings I've had as I incredulously read this article this afternoon.

  • Robo
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:17 p.m.

    An alternate program has been in place since the Supreme Court considered the BSA case a few years ago regarding the role of God in scouting. The vote was 5-4 allowing scouting to continue requiring some sort of belief in God. If one justice had voted the other way, I believe the church would not now be affilitated with scouting. I also think a break from BSA is warranted because the church could do it better and cheaper. I believe that it likely will come eventually. Until then, I do my best to support the program because the boys need it and they are what matter the most.

  • Hey Mr Factual Comparisons
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:15 p.m.

    The problem people have with scout execs making soo much money is their salary comes entirely from DONATIONS. Nobody should make this much income off other peoples donations.

  • Suprised
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:07 p.m.

    I wonder what percentage of the donations come from people that make less than the people being supported by the donations.

    I understand that that these people work full time. The fact that they might be able to earn more at a for- profit company doesn't mean they should be paid as much as an executive at a for-profit company.

    They ask everyone else to sacrifice for scouting. They should lead by example. They should earn a living wage, not an executive wage.

  • Bureaucracy
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:07 p.m.

    This year our ward donated $3300 to FOS. Our entire annual budget for the YM program was $1800. So the administrative overhead ratio, in our case, is nearly 2:1. Time to restructure or reinvent the organization. The organization now has the same objective of all bureaucracies: to promote, protect and justify it's own existence.

    What does this all have to do with teaching the boys values and a love of the outdoors?

  • Thad LeVar
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:57 p.m.

    Add one more name to the list of those who will not donate to FOS in the future.

  • For Benjamin
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:56 p.m.


    I've seen my husband leave for school at 7:00 am and return at 12:00 midnight MANY days over a period of 30 years as he took care of his duties as teacher and/or principal of a high school. I saw him agonize over problems with teachers, coaches, parents, students, athletes, , etc. I saw him lose countless hours of sleep over worry when a kid brought a gun to school, lawsuits threatened and filed over various issues, having to fire teachers who didn't perform up to expectations...Calls day and night from angry parents over teachers, coaches, other students, you name it. Calls from parents in the middle of the night on a weekend who couldn't find their child (I'm really not sure why HE was supposed to know where they were on a Saturday night). I could go on forever. The TOP salary my husband brought home was $73,000. I won't complain about his salary. He LOVES education and we haven't wanted for anything in life but I have no tears to shed with Mr. Moore.

  • Susan
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:55 p.m.

    Although I do not live in Utah, I am a den leader and committee member with a son who is currently a Webelos I. We have sold popcorn for four years, and have made generous donations to Friends of Scouting for the past three years. After reading this article, no more popcorn sales or Friends of Scouting donations for me. I will instead give that money directly to our Pack to be used for our boys and to help boys who need financial assistance to participate in scouting. Those salaries are absurd and completely unjustifiable even if they are working 60 hours a week. Do the math!

  • LDS family in California
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:52 p.m.

    On our ward level I have seen talented, dedicated men and women run outstanding local programs for their cub scouts, and then scouts. I supported my son as much as possible, and encouraged him to participate. He loved and admired his leaders (still does in his mid-20's), and they helped him all they could. He hated scouting, campouts, snow camping, hiking 30 miles etc. If he had not participated there was no alternative for him on a weeknight, and group activities with his church member peers would have been practically non-existent. He received his Duty to God award, but quit Scouts after becoming a "life scout".

    Many years earlier a younger brother, not athletic at all, and totally disinterested in doing outdoor activities, gradually was left out of YM (i.e. Scouting!) and became inactive, and still is today.

    Working in Young Women for years outside of Utah,I have participated in the Personal Progress program with them, helped plan and raise money for the EXCELLENT yearly camp. It works!

    Our Church can support scouting, but it should not be the ONLY program offered for young men.

  • S T
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:51 p.m.

    A few points of comparison..

    The head of BSA is getting near $1,000,000 a year

    The head of the United Way --- $375,000

    The head of the Red Cross -- $500,000.

    Both those organizations are far larger and have far greater revenues than BSA (Red Cross alone raised $5.5 billion last year. BSA was only $179 million).

  • Scout Supporter
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:50 p.m.

    TOO MUCH! The BSA accomplishes myriad good in this world, but think how much more good they could do by turning that excessive salary into facilities and no-cost activities--things that directly benefit the boys! No BSA council executive is worth more than $80,000 a year, period. At least Bronco Mendenhall's work directly brings a lot of money and recognition to the university--not a valid comparison.

  • Eric
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:37 p.m.

    I wonder if all who have complained about the Scout executives' pay also complain that Bronco Mendenhall's salary is supposedly more than $500,000 annually. I suppose the only way to know if the executives are worth what we pay them is to replace them with people currently worth (and getting paid), let's say, $40,000 and see if the Scout program runs any better, the same or worse. I am not willing to make that kind of a risk. Do we need to re-evaluate the execs' salaries? Probably, but let's not have the program dissolved over an article that makes most of feel underpaid.

  • BahHumbug to Scouting
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:36 p.m.

    I knew that the "professional" scouters got paid, but this is a joke! No more funding the Friends of Scouting from my home. The Church needs to pull away from the BSA now.

  • Brad Anderson
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:33 p.m.

    This is just one MORE reason I will never let my boys join the scouts. My first reason is that they will not include EVERYONE!

  • Alternative YM Program
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:33 p.m.

    There already is an alternative LDS Young Men's Program and it is being utilized in every LDS unit outside the U.S. I know from experience that it is A GREAT PROGRAM too!

    The LDS church is probably reluctant to move away from the BSA program because it still works to some degree and church money is, most likely, keeping BSA from going under.

    It might be time for the LDS church to run its own less bureaucratic and more effective program in the U.S..

  • BB
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:28 p.m.

    After reading through many of these comments, I am surprised at the ignorance of people in regards to Scouting and what makes it function. I spent three years as a professional Scouter. I loved the job, but had no personal life. I often worked from 7:00 in the morning until 11:00 at night, sometimes six or seven days in a week. I was responsible for every aspect of the program within my district. I recruited boys and leaders, did training, organized Scout and day camps, supervised district leadership, and much more. I left because I was having to make too many sacrifices of family and personal time. Good Scout leadership at the professional level is worth every penny and probably much more. What other program teaches boys to be men and men of integrity. I would trade one good Scouting professional for a dozen average school teachers. Even though I haven't been employed by BSA in 25 years, I have continued my annual financial support (even though I have five daughters) because it is one of the programs that can really make a difference in our nation.

  • 2 Eagles
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:25 p.m.

    As a single father of 2 Eagle Scouts, it makes me sick that these people are being paid like that. Many of us who have kids in Scouts sacrifice, cut, work more than one job so our sons can have this experience, which I believe is a good one. I see local Scout leaders also sacrificing along with their families. I don't have a problem with these other men being paid, but I believe $75,000 should be fine. That's what many high school administrators earn and I don't believe anyone in public service works harder than those people.

  • Scout Master
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:23 p.m.

    I'm a Scout Master in my ward, and this very article will keep me from donating to Friends of Scouting.

  • DougS
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:16 p.m.

    DavidH: The Duty to God program was NOT meant to teach organizational, leadership, and life-building skills? And the BSA is the only program on the face of the earth capable of teaching these values?

    You've got to be kidding.

    I don't interpret any counsel I've received from my church leaders as a directive to take the funds I'd use to feed, clothe, and shelter my family and instead devote them to the enrichment of a couple of BSA executives. And I'd seriously question any church that DID give that counsel.

    The BSA teaches values that are useful and, in my view, very relevant today. It may well be that Mr. Moore accepted his position with the BSA, and generally carries out his duties, with the purest of motives. He can demonstrate that by refunding half of his salary to the Red Cross, LDS Humanitarian Services or another bona fide charity.

  • A real live Boy Scout
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:10 p.m.

    I am a Scout and I like scouting. I enjoy Duty to God more, and I wish we did more of it. I am aware of no 'services' given by the BSA. A 'service' is free; not compensated.
    What the Great Salt Lake Council dude said about touting stuff like Jamborees is a farce. I've never been to one because you have to PAY to go to them. My ward PAYS for scout camp. Heck, the scouts have to PAY and WORK themselves to go. It costs hundreds of dollars to send the scouts to camps, but we learn WAY MORE at Youth Conferences and church activities. (We have a better time too.)

    Frankly, we youth love the church originated programs, and we find the Scouting Programs pretty darn boring, expensive, and time-consuming. We're practically glad to not go to scout camp, sadly enough. The camp directors don't know squat and they're mean.

    Enough said. Please, respond to this adults and fellow scouters. Let me know if I and my friends are alone or if others feel the same way.

  • Tom
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:01 p.m.

    I became an eagle scout at the age of 14, back in 1976. This was shortly after the BSA reduced the requirements to become an eagle. Today, the requirements are even more watered down. If you earned your eagle in the 60s, then that is impressive. It used to require a lot of hard work that you performed on your own. Why is it constantly watered down? Because, the BSA executives know that the more boys who get their advancements, the longer those boys stay in the program, the more badges they sell, the more registration money they recieve, the more parents ignorantly give money to FOS. In short,the security of their high paying jobs will always come first. If you have someone who is pushing the program, all the boys have to do is show up and do a few simple things on their own, and they make eagle at 14. It's not a glorious accomplishment. It's like HS graduation. Show up every day and study a little and you are there. In my opinion, the administrative monstrosity that has become the BSA, is a complete joke.
    A high paid scouting position isn't "service" in scouting, it's "money".

  • Big J
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:58 p.m.

    Where do we find out what the other high paid execs make

  • ScienceGuy
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:52 p.m.

    So, how much should they earn?

  • Learned Early
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:46 p.m.

    I haven't donated to FOS for years now. Still won't. Sadly, in my job I have seen many accomplished liars that are Eagle scouts. Maybe they got their practice by seeing their parents "verify" all the things they did to get their Eagles? Want more bang for your buck? Focus on the Duty to God program.

  • Justification doesn't add up
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:44 p.m.

    Working longer hours and missing weekends gives you an entitlement to make 214K? You compare school leaders that make 130k. That is a huge difference. Get your salaries down. Nobody!!! Should be making over a 150K as a top local guy in the BSA.

    I'm an eagle scout and when the times comes for Friends of Scouting. I will be declining this time until I hear further if anything has been done.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:37 p.m.

    When in the course of human events...
    It is self-evident that the Church should sever its relationship with the BSA. In my opinion Duty to God is a MUCH better program and I would be happy to donate my resources (time and money) to a Church-run program because it would be well run in addition to being inspired.
    The BSA will not be receiving any more money from our family.

  • WeBeLows?
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:37 p.m.

    More accurately, it should be WeBeHighs, as in too highly paid!!! How can they justify that? I hope they have the moral character to fix this gross over payment I'm sure they must feel they are "worth" it, but couldn't that money be better used towards the scouts themselves? They seem to follow the scout motto well - being so financially prepared and all. But maybe they need to understand the oath a little better and keep themselves morally straight here. Or maybe scouts should just go the way of the Dodo.

  • Joe
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:19 p.m.

    $214,000 per year......$500,000 per year...for professional scouters...and the bishop asked for friends of scouting donations today to contribute to this? I know I'm not the sharpest tool in the box,... but this just does not feel right.

  • Not Surprised.
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:06 p.m.

    I have long thought the BSA was over-exagerated and over-paid. I also questioned just how many boy's lives are changed by BSA. I know there are some, but do the high costs outweigh the benefit?

    I worked in the non-profit sector for most of my career at several different organizations, one of which was the Boys and Girls Clubs. I know there were clubs outside of Utah that had high-paid administrations, but not here. I felt BGC's impact on kids was much higher than BSA, and for less money. BGC deals with their kids up to six days a week. They help them with their homework, teach computers, constructive activities, etc. They provide this for less money, helping keep kids off the streets after school while their parents are working.

    I stopped contributing to FOS because I could get more bang for my buck elsewhere. And yes, I'm active LDS and wish the church would make it's own program.

    I NEVER made that much working in nonprofits. Probably not many in Utah. I'm sure Moore works hard, but I think our money is better spent elsewhere. FOS should not be done through the church. Inspiration will provide a better program.

  • Listen to yourselves
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:02 p.m.

    Statistically, people who brag about past contributions, and then pledge to never donate again due to new information, actually never gave to begin with. I will continue to give because I still believe in Scouting. When I see what Scouting has done for my two sons I realize that I owe much more than the small amount I can give each year to Friends of Scouting.

  • Still a Friend of Scouting
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:50 p.m.

    Wow! What a lot of negative comments! I hardly recognize the Scouting movement that I know and love in these posts.

    It is easy to get hung up on executive compensation and imagine that we could do as well for less. I have often wondered why the CEO of my company should be paid $12,600,000 (yes, that's 12.6 million dollars!).

    However, most of the complaints above are about bad experiences, not the compensation itself. My own experience as a 2nd Class Scout was less than satisfactory. But I wouldn't trade my experience with adults and young men as a Scouter for the world. I appreciate the influence of dedicated Scout leaders on my Eagle Scout sons and many other young men I have known over the years.

    Scouting is not dead, irrelevant or ineffective. Its values are timeless, and those professional Scouters and volunteers who dedicate themselves to passing those values to young men are true heroes!

    Let's not abandon this great organization! I will donate to Friends of Scouting as long as I have a dime to my name.

  • Carl Rickerson
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:49 p.m.

    It was shocking to read this article. It seems many connect experiences as a Scout or Scouter with the notion of loyal payment of money to the councils. The fact is, does Scouting need professionals? I know of some men and women, all volunteers, who administer programs to over 13 million people worldwide. I think Scouting should use the church as a model of what can be done with volunteers. I join many others in vowing never again to donate a dollar (or a penny) to this absurd friends of scouting program.

  • Let's See Again
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:48 p.m.

    Perhaps his salary should be based on accomplishments, and I don't mean getting more boys involved in scouting. I would say that based on what I have heard only about 2% of scouts attain the rank of an eagle.

    Let's base professional scouters salaries on the increase in eagle scouts 10-20% or higher. If he increased the number of young men receiving tenderfoot, star, life, and eagle significantly then we should be discussing pay raises, not time away from families: truck drivers do that and don't get compensated equally.

    Scouting faired far better when the adults who worked with the kids could also earn those same merit badges, but when they decided they couldn't it started on a downward spiral. If someone can work side by side with their son or neighbor they are far more interested in doing the work and show far more enthusiasm.

    I still believe in scouting and I do agree knot tieing is valuable, I still use it regularly, and so does fire building, etc. Let's set some sensible paramenters and go from there.

  • Scouting is Fun
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:37 p.m.

    Amortization? Why? That's handled by school.

    We do teach interviewing. Every advancement is accompanied by a Board of Review which is an interview.

    Sheepshanks and half-hitches are more important than Excel spreadsheets. When you're tying a tarp ontop of your pick-up, which will do you more good? The knots or Excel?

    Sure that one fellow is paid alot but it is a large council. Small councils pay less. Professional Scouters work their tails off and the compensation is low until you reach the upper ranks.

  • David H
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:32 p.m.

    Most of those contributing comments to this article have no idea about what the real purposes of scouting are. Scouting where run correctly, builds YM into quality adults. They learn organizatonal, leadership and life building skills. (You cannot find these principles in the Boys and Girls Clubs or 4 H.) There is no other organization that can claim such objectives. The LDS Church's Duty to God program is not able to do this. It is an acheivement program not a leadership development program.

    Scouting is expensive, but what is the value of a boy? Just look at the number of YM that this program affects. Take a look at your testimonies for you LDS members. We have been repeatedly counseled to support Friends of Scouting and I intend to continue to support this worthy organization as long as I am asked to do so.

  • From Scouting Program
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:32 p.m.

    My family has been heavily involved in scouting and I expect my boys to become eagle scouts. However as a mother, I did not go through the scouting program and did not know how it worked. We had one good leader until she moved (cub leader) and with her gone, my boys will have to progress through the ranks largely by my efforts, not as much the ward-called leaders who it seems would rather be at home with their families.

    I don't know if the reaction to this article is so much about Mr. Moore and the other leaders' salaries as it is about so many people seeing that there is something that has vitally changed in society and scouts has not changed too.I haven't been involved in it long enough to understand what it is about scouts that is so difficult for so many people.

    Keep it up Mr. Moore! But you may be overseeing some sort of major shift in the scouting program in Utah!

  • Let's See
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:25 p.m.

    BA degree in German, Spanish and Russian
    Masters in Counseling
    Special Education Credential
    33 years in education
    60 hour weeks plus 40-50 night events to supervise during school year.
    Moore earns more than twice what it took me to get after all the education and years of working.

    To tell me that you can't get someone as competent as Paul Moore for half the price. Especially when policies are basically laid in stone and the volunteers in the trenches do 90% of the work.

    Something is wrong here. It will be interesting to see how much money is collected now for SME. What timing this article is!

    The Aaronic Priesthood activity program is operated through the mutual and is based on region and cultural of the region or country. Scouting is not world-wide.

    Scouts who are not interested or are forced by parents who are not involved and often led by men who are not inspired to be part of this program.

    Saw scouting florish as a youth, then stake pulled our leaders to work in stake. New men called and program went down the tube. They weren't interested in doing what we did to get eagle scouts.

  • Surprised
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:09 p.m.

    I have to shake my head at the attempt to justify compensation for Scout executives by pointing at school district superintendents. The skill set required for superintendents (and the competition to keep them) is, in my judgment, substantially greater than is the case with Scout executives. I have drawn no hard conclusion on whether executive salaries in that range are justifiable in the abstract (I have my doubts), but I am certain they cannot be justified by comparing the two types of positions. And, for the record, I am not (and have never been) a school district employee.

  • U.S. Army Airborne Ranger
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:08 p.m.

    I owe to the leadership skills taught me by many great scouting leaders, my entrance to the United States Military Academy and the lives of the many fine soldiers I lead in harms way as a company commander in South Vietnam. My three sons are Eagle scouts and have used the leadership skills learned through that experience. Paul Moore was brought in from Oklahoma by our council for his demonstrated skills and he has taken an unsatisfactory financial situation and brought it to one of the best in the nation. Paul is the first Non-Mormon to lead this council. He is very skilled and highly rated among his peers. He came here not knowing how well he would be accepted by the many volunteers in the area and has exceeded everyones expectations. He and his family have become part of our community and this has actually been a sacrifice from the salary he would have received from more traditional large councils. Paul Moore has a great sense of integrity and has given his all for the uplifting and training of thousands of young men to become leaders in our society.

  • A Program is NOT Doctrine
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:04 p.m.

    Scouting is a program in the Church, and programs come and go. The current scouting program has run it's course, and either needs to be drastically modified or done away with. The Church does not need the BSA and their over paid executives! We can do much better by starting our own in-house program.

  • My dad
    Nov. 11, 2007 12:57 p.m.

    There are several plaques in my parents home that recognize my dad for his "generous" donations. My folks live in Kearns and they're not too well off. When my dad was the bishop he would write a check to cover most of the FOS "suggested" ward amount. He knew his Kearns ward didn't have a lot of money to spare. He cut his expenses and donated so his church leaders would not keep asking him to "ask" members to donate. I am glad for Scouting and earned my Eagle award. But there were a lot of other kids who didn't care about scouts and I was the only one on many nights that attended. My dad, the bishop, gave a lot of time to the ward, worked a full-time job, and then helped out on scouts. He didn't complain but I know scouts cost him a lot of money and time he could ill afford. I wonder how many other bishops contribute so they don't have to ask the ward. Maybe they got plaques for their houses too?

  • lost scout
    Nov. 11, 2007 12:54 p.m.

    mr moore's salary is out of line, out of whack, and out of sight. sure enjoyed all the hazing that occurred at our scout camps-that made "men out of us". i am a school teacher in my 5th year making less than 35k, i am not happy with my administrators making 3x what I make, but i daily watch them oversee and handle a multitude of student, parent, state and governmental educational issues as well as mandated programs, so don't compare mr moores salary even though he has years of service. lds church: wake up and be a little flexible! quit demanding scouting as the only option to teach and influence young men. you'll never get another dime from me. i will pay to the local scouts directly so i can see the benefit, not fatten your wallet.

  • Ex-Exec leader in Arizona
    Nov. 11, 2007 12:41 p.m.

    "It's clear that many on this list haven't a clue how scouting functions, why its set up the way that it is, and why the pay is where its at for some top professionals."
    Do you mean BSA or LDS BSA Scouting? There is a very big difference in the two. I just wish the article would of also stated the salaries of BSA officials and not just LDS BSA officials because if you do your research there is a very large difference in the salaries of the two. BSA was founded and run on different principles then how it is run within the church.
    My children learned some very valuable lessons from Scouting and I would not trade that for anything. One of the many things they learned is that you do not have to make a 6 figure income to care about the boys you oversee!!!!!!!!! Geez, guess it is REALLY different in Utah!

  • Ex-Exec leader in Arizona
    Nov. 11, 2007 12:24 p.m.

    The Bishop in our ward in Dixie Downs came right out and told me that I could not have a den because I was not part of the church!!! I had served on the Executive Committee in Az but here I could not even have a den!!!
    My sons tried to continue with Scouting but were not treated like everyone one else because they did not go to "the church" on Sunday so they did not find out about events. Needless to say, both of my sons quite Scouting after just getting the Arrow of Light award. What a shame that was! They loved Scouting but Scouting is not ran by BSA standards with the church involved. The community pack was just starting and I wish we had known about them because many my sons would of continued.
    It does not take great amounts of money to run a successful Scouting program but parents and a community that are willing to help out.

  • Factual Comparisons
    Nov. 11, 2007 12:20 p.m.

    It's clear that many on this list haven't a clue how scouting functions, why its set up the way that it is, and why the pay is where its at for some top professionals. Some commenters have made comparisons that don't equate the same to other professions. Its ok in your minds to pay your School Superintendant high 6 figures, but a Executive Director of a council can't? Yet he has more employees, more "students" and more at risk then the superintendant. Utah has 3 top professionals in scouting for the whole state, serving hundreds of thousands of youth, while the school system has how many people earning 6 figures? How many of them are "top execs?"
    Your entry level BSA professional gets about 36k, yet the job is more like a high school principal, then a teacher. How many of you would want to be a high school principal - and get paid 36k? How many of you would want to do that job and then have to raise all the money for your school and its programs - as no state/federal funding pays for your school?
    Your BSA pros earn their keep. Get the facts.

  • Ex-Exec leader in Arizona
    Nov. 11, 2007 12:12 p.m.

    When my oldest son was 5 years old I fought and started Tiger Cubs in Lake Havasu City, Az. Then I spent the next 5 years running the only pack in the area. Pack # 8, Den 6 (5 other dens did not succeed in the past). I did everything because there was no one else to help. I started off with 3 boys and when I moved 5 years later there was 174 boys in Cub Scouts. I had a good group of parents that came to every pack meeting, camp out, hiking trip etc and one took over when I moved. We were never paid anything other then the gratitude of the boys and the families. All of our activities, supplies, merit patches, etc came out of my pocket. The parents that could help financially did but they were few. Everything I did was for my sons and the other boys, not for me or a church. We were not sponsored by a church but met at the boys schools. I got the community to stand behind us and donate all that they could to help out.
    **Continued on next post**

  • Mom
    Nov. 11, 2007 12:01 p.m.

    My son got drunk for the first time at scout camp and learned from the leaders to use fireworks illegally in the woods. Admittedly, this was in another state, but I think I am not the only mom who is not impressed with what goes on at scout events.

  • thrifty?
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:48 a.m.

    A scout is thrifty, but a scout is also trustworthy and loyal.

    "'If you don't pay well, you will not get top talent. If you don't get top people, you will just fail.' He says if Utah councils do not pay well, the top executives will simply go to other councils of similar size."

    Where is the trustworthiness and loyalty in that?

  • Hey Benjamin
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:47 a.m.

    Mr. Moore must be the highest paid snow shoveler in the world!!! Just think, how many day laborers they could hire to shovel that snow with a small chunk of the $214,000 salary so that people wouldn't have to feel bad that Mr. Moore works so hard!!!

  • FOS
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:45 a.m.

    Now I feel sorta duped.

    I guess I can't get my money I have donated back, but I think I am going to send them back my Eagle Scout Award from 1978.

    Should I send it to the BSA or the LDS Church Admin. Building for most impact?

  • Homeron
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:40 a.m.

    My Opinion : It is time the church starts their own scouting program ! These over paid scouter's sound like the days when The United Way was over paying their workers. I quit giving to the Scouts a few ago when I checked into where some money I had donated(Not FOS) and asked it to go to buy some supplies for our Troop . They told me it had gone to pay administrative costs ! I stopped giving that day even to F.O.S (Fork Over Some more)

  • well duh
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:38 a.m.

    Too bad they never read Baden-Powell. This is the irony of it all, Baden Powell said that the only person in Scouting that should be paid is the secretary.
    So much for listening to the founder of Scouting...

  • The bottom line
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:36 a.m.

    I've been in scouting for 20 years. Bottom line is the vast majority of boys in the church don't care about scouting. They only do it because they are forced by their parents.

  • I love scouts, but...
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:21 a.m.

    I think that the LDS church should dump the BSA and ramp up the Duty to God program. The church is lean and mean for such a large organization. BSA is not.

    The BSA bureaucracy is killing scouting. While the LDS Church is focusing on simplifying programs (see Elder Oaks' conference talk), BSA is making things more and more complex and time consuming.

    These professional scouters are out of touch. I'll never forget an overnight training I went to where we sat for hours in a smokey cabin getting chastized for not doing enough, and the professional scouter teaching us ripped on a counselor in our bishopric for not holding some meeting regularly enough. I almost cried. This counselor was giving so much of his time already to our youth. These professional scouters are not a help but a burden to the volunteers.

    I would like to see the Church dump scouts and make Duty to God the new "Eagle Scout" equivalent. The BSA is so caught up in nifty badges and pins and advancements and self-important leader certifications that they've lost site of what's most important: ministering to these boys. The boys are more important than the program.

  • realist
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:15 a.m.

    Excellent article, Mr. Lee. I really appreciate such honest and open reporting in the D-News on a controversial topic. I have been a fairly consistent and large supporter of F.O.S. in past years (including this year), mostly because I support the young men and their local leaders, but I always suspected that a large portion of the $$ went to scounting executives' salaries. Now that this article confirms it, I will no longer be donating to F.O.S. BSA should either cut way back on the salaries, or the church should separate itself from scouting.

  • SE Idaho
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:11 a.m.

    I run a company that generated $225 million last year.

    My board would laugh at me if I asked to be paid Paul Moore is getting.

  • Eagle Scout from Cal
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:06 a.m.

    There was a push in my ward in California to get boys done with the eagle scout by the time they turned 14. That way they could stop scouting, focus on the priesthood and other activites set up by the leaders. My favorite memories and experiences come from those activities after I turned 14, and not scouting. The huge emphasis on scouting in the LDS church needs to go.

  • Chris
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:03 a.m.

    I'm an Eagle scout and a reasonably generous contributor to Friends of Scouting. I'll continue to contribute to FOS simply as a show of support for my bishop, since I've seen the pressure he gets to fulfill the quota. (One year, our ward's contribution packet got returned to us twice before those above us were finally satisfied with the level of our "voluntary" contributions.) But if the boycotts some are proposing here bring about a change for the better, I say more power to them.

    Despite getting my Eagle, I don't have fond memories of scouting. I never could see what sleeping in a tent had to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I learned a lot more edifying life lessons from my priesthood quorum than my scout troop. The main thing I recall learning from scouts was how to cope when you're surrounded by boys intent on re-enacting "Lord of the Flies".

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 11:02 a.m.

    Like scout executives, I too work 60-80 hours a week. Like scout executives, it's tough on my wife too because I'm never home. The difference... after my 60-80 hour work week, I volunteer 10 hours of my time on my scout calling.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:54 a.m.

    How out of line is the BSAs compensation? Mr Williams manages a budget of $170 million and was paid over $900,000. I work for a fortune 50 company and manage a budget of $165,000 and make $130,000.

    The diference (besides our salaries) is that my budget comes from legitimate sales to the consumer while Mr Williams budget is based entirely off of donations from hard working people - some of them who are struggling to make ends meet.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:41 a.m.

    I've lived in Utah, Arizona, California and Idaho... the FOS drive works the same way in all 4 states. Each ward is given a quota and a tremendous amount of pressure to make the quota. While our Idaho ward's quota was only $2,700 this year, when I lived in California it was closer to $6,000. That's on top of the $1,000 per family the stake asked for from me personally and several other families to defeat the gay marriage amendment.

  • Benjamin
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:37 a.m.

    Anybody who thinks that the scout executives sit in their offices and do nothing need to become better acquainted with the program. I have seen nearly every professional from the Great Salt Lake Council in action, and as a group they impress. Not only do they put in long hours, but under challenging circumstances.
    In 2005 I saw Paul Moore and about two dozen professionals at Camp Steiner shovelling snow so that the camp could open on time for the summer. I've seen Paul Moore come up to Steiner at 6am (leaving SLC at least by 4.30) to support the camp program. I've seen professionals like Moore, Kay Godfrey, and Reid Hall put in 18 hour days wrestling with paperwork, uncooperative "volunteers", and chronic lack of funds.
    Yes uniforms and badges are expensive, but that's not because the scouts are profitting from them heavily, that's because there aren't 20 corporations competitng to make them. (It isn't exactly a profitable market).
    One other note: Given the fact that the local councils oversee 100,000volunteers and participants, comparing their salaries to that of a small business is disingenuous. The more appropriate comparison would be with a company like ExxonMobil (106,100 employees).

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:28 a.m.

    I will continue to donate as long as church leadership supports FOS, even though I don't personally agree with the scouting program.

    I've lived in 5 different states and this blog is a good representation of how church members around the country feel about scouting. That is... very few boys are interested and the ward leaders do their best to run the program only because church HQ still endorses it.

  • Rethinking
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:23 a.m.

    I will no longer be supporting the FOS drive but rather give generously to the fundraising efforts of the local troop. We are sometimes led to believe that our FOS donations are to help the local program but it sound like they are used for "administrative costs." Now that I realize what those costs are I will rethink the way I contribute.

  • Rose Park
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:20 a.m.

    I will never donate money again to Scouting.

  • Scout Staff
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:18 a.m.

    I think I want to be a scout exec some day. To think I spent all those summers directing scout camps, being camp staff, for near minimum wage!!
    And as a local scout leader in a ward, I think I it would be fair to take a percentage of the FOS dontations, and then keep the rest all locally for our troop, that way it wont go to the buy our DE a boat fund.

  • Steve T
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:08 a.m.

    What is funny is to listen to the families of the scout executives defend these absurd compensation levels.

    Has anyone noticed which paper generated this story? It is fair to say that this was run by some of the ownership of the Deseret News.

    I suspect that a few LDS church leaders are having the same reaction we are.

  • dave
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:07 a.m.

    A good program for the "young men" could be achieved just as the the program for "young women" is done--with dedicated volunteers. There is absolutely no need for paid executives in order to succeed. Not wanting to spend millions to pay the salaries of executives doesn't mean that I don't appreciate the need of a good program for young men. The real work has been done and is being done by those who care enough to do it without compensation.

  • Friend of Scouting
    Nov. 11, 2007 10:04 a.m.

    While I agree that the compensation appears to be inflated, I think that everyone is forgetting about the rewards of scouting. Scouting tries to encourage young men to be their best, learn as much as they can and follow the scout motto. If all people followed the scout motto and oath think what a better place this would be.
    Scouting should look at their salaries and make some adjustments. Let's not stop our support of raising up fine young men who hold the values of the scouting program. I will continue to support scouting because it helps all of us. Think where we might be without young men following the scouting values.

  • Pragmatic
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:51 a.m.

    Scouting IS a great program and needed now more than ever to engage youth in appreciation of the outdoors. Evidently it IS a great career path as well. Maybe parents should encourage their kids to be scout execs rather than simply Vice President, Supreme Court Justice, etc.

  • BSA vs. .......
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:48 a.m.

    I don't mind be solicited by the kids in the neighborhood for donations. I have never really cared whether it was for Soccer, Baseball, Football, School Fair or whatever. I view the act of going door to door as "educational" in and of itself.

    However, I know the balance sheets of Little League sports and with the possible exception of Ute Conference Football they all operate on a shoestring and do not compensate their "volunteers".

    I know that Gary Mat. and the Football boys make some serious coinage, due to their CONSTANT efforts to keep it a secret. I viewed that as a necessary evil to allow 10,000 boys the opportunity to play.

    But at least their numbers of "kids involved" are real. For Mr. Boy Scout to justify his salary with 'look at ALL the boys we have in our program' is either naive or an out and out lie.

    After reading this article I am going to take the 2nd choice. I too, will turn away the local kids as they try to sell me Jamboree tickets or similar donation packets.

    I will re-print this story to hand them instead.

  • jbird
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:46 a.m.

    Having been a Scoutmaster and the father of two Eagles, I'm really sad to say it, but Scouting has lost touch with the young men of today. It has become an exercise in old men vicariously reliving their childhoods through young men who are commanded to submit to it.
    Though it was inspired for the young men of a day, the Church needs another program that is more relevant for today's young men.Duty to God is a good start. Let's flesh it out a little more.

  • Steve
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:39 a.m.

    Ok, "Open Minded Thinker", let's look at the data.

    According the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics occupational survey:

    * The top 10% of all corporate executives only average $121,020.

    * The top 10% of all attorneys only average $158,660.

    The top 10% of all physicians only average $208,000.

    I can't find ANY profession where the top 10% earn as much as the SLC scout executive.

    I still say SHAME.

  • arc
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:32 a.m.

    I don't know if this is a repeat. My post didn't show up.

    80% of the money goes for services. Most charity organizations are between 50% and 80%. Not bad. I don't want the FOS drive to fail, as 80% will go where it needs to.

    I do want Paul to go we are having to pay him that much. My Brother-in-law, with education and more experience could do the same job (or better) for $100k. Even $120k per year would be great, but we are asking families where both husband and wife together do not make $50k per year to donate to pay this guy.

    I will donate enough for an other patch this year, but Pres. Hinckley and Pres. Monson, who read the paper should complain. perhaps GSLC will wake up. We have the best scouters in the nation, we don't need to pay this much for an import.

  • Scouter's wife
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:31 a.m.

    I think I'm going to throw up. My husband has been in scouting for years. He is asked to do more and more every year: go to meetings 200 miles away on a week day during work hours at his own expense (he refused to go); have weekly lunch meetings with scout execs during business hours that he then is asked to pay for (he didn't eat and he didn't pay); recruit more volunteers; ask for more money, more registrations; go to other denominations and get their boys into scouting as well, so the exec's salary and bonuses can increase because of someone else's labor; take on additional HOURS of paper work that is not his but the district exec's responsibility (he handed that back). With all that he has turned down, he still put in 25-30 hours a week as a volunteer schout leader. The scouting execs abuse and under-appreciate their volunteers. I've seen it for years. My husband has been rewarded with plaque after plaque every year for his services, but someone has yet to buy him a lunch or fill his tank with gas.

  • Mona
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:29 a.m.

    Most of you are way off base. Scouting is an inspired program, and enriches the lives of the boys and adults. And if your boy doesn't want to be there, then I hope you can find another activity to involve them in, that will give them as great a foundation for life as does Scouting, which teaches them life skills, correct principles and reverence for God. If the Scouting executive positions were not competitively compensated, the organization would have folded by now. It is no mistake that the LDS Church uses Scouting as their Aaronic Priesthood activity arm. And if your ward doesn't have an adequate program going, speak to your bishop about it.

  • Non Donator
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:28 a.m.

    Scouting has not incorporated modern technology in lowering their operating costs and will not until forced to. In the business world this force comes from competition, but since they are a monopoly this won't happen. Local troops can dramatically lower their operating costs by skipping the professional "camps" and using the State and National campgrounds.

    I deeply resent the incessant fund raising done within the LDS church for a completely independent organization.

  • Doesn't Add Up
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:26 a.m.

    Something doesn't add up here. The LDS Church pays the registration for every young man whether he participates or not. Since all young men do not participate in scouting, that would reduce the cost per boy for services. All wards are given quota's and fund raising (Funds of Scouting) is an assignment with no costs attached - yet, the local councils spend more money on fund raising that other units? In addition, the local troops have their own fund raising activities to help buy equipment and send the troops to camps, etc. which is not funded by the national BSA. It sounds to me like funds raised locally are probably not staying in the local councils but are being used to pay high salaries elsewhere in the United States. The BSA needs to disclose how and where local funds are being used/distributed. I don't mind helping the scouts in my local unit/council if the money stays here. It would bother me if my money is going back East to pay for some guy's million-dollar salary!!

  • what?
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:25 a.m.

    I don't see how they can compare it to being a superintendent, because teachers are paid in a school district, local scout leaders are not. Nor do we want to be paid, quite frankly. I don't see anything wrong with these executives being paid to train leaders and what not, but it's the $ amount that upsets me.

  • ialwayshaveanopinion
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:21 a.m.

    Part of my problem (abt 90%) with LDS-sponsored Scouting is that there is no similar program for the young women in the church. (Don't even go there on the Personal Progress Program -- I was a YW pres. for a long time.) Their camps are all rough camps -- no professional leaders there either -- while the boys have dormitories, hot showers, etc. My sons hated Scouting but if you weren't involved then there was nothing else for you to do. (And the cost of those Oscar DeLaRenta uniforms?!!!) We lose a lot of boys in the church because of this problem. I have a brother-in-law that is a "Professional Scout" and I won't even go there . . . good grief. I will not be paying my $125 "quota", I can tell you that!!!!!

  • Eagle
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:17 a.m.

    As a scout leader, I knocked doors for hours last week for the Friends of Scouting Drive, even donating generously myself. I donate money, time, vacation days, and other resources to the scout program on a weekly basis. I do it because I believe in what Scouting stands for and I have seen it build character in the lives of young boys. But to read that these executives are getting paid THAT much money has seriously shaken my faith in the organization. On the Friends of Scouting Drive, I graciously waited at the door as this wonderful old lady went to gather what change she had, which totaled $5. Now to think that that wonderful old lady's change is going to pay this guy's salary is downright sickening. I would hate to see the church abandon the program, but something seriously needs to change.

  • Friend of Scouting
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:14 a.m.

    Too bad many of those who commented here were more interested in themselves than the youth. It is interesting that we are so worried about what others make instead of what an impact we can make on youth.

    I don't begrudge any of the scout executives as they spend many more hours doing the job than others, including teachers.

    I am glad to support the youth program both monetarily and in serving, I have been a volunteer for 20 years. I also was not a scout as a youth, but I do have Eagle sons!

  • D.C. Baker
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:13 a.m.

    I have been envolved in scouting all my life - from scoutmaster, woodbadge course director, and numerous district postions. The quality of service provided by the district leaders is sufficient to not need professional scout executives to baby sit them. Often they get in the way of our succesful programs. I suggest scout excecutives only be used in to run scout camps and not be assigned to the the scouting districts. Trust the district leaders to run the scouting programs in their districts. This way the number of executives would be greatly redused. Also if the council president Mr.Moore would cut his $200.00 plus salray at least in half, for an excample to the other scout excutives, much money could be saved. It is indeed unfortunate that scouting has become a big business and not a service for boys

  • Questioned
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:05 a.m.

    I've been to my local scout office and I'm not impressed with how they run the thing. I asked for a history of the eagle scouts in my troop for the past 3 years and I ended up getting passed from one person to the next before finally looking through binders myself for about an hour to collect the data. Ever heard of a PC? Give me a break, what is the incentive for the Boy Scouts of America to be financially efficient? Who do they answer to? They have no shareholders. I believe the intent of the program is good and much good is accomplished. If someone is in it for the money, I believe they have the wrong motivation and aren't who we are looking for.

  • Tom
    Nov. 11, 2007 9:00 a.m.

    I will continue to support scouts. It is a great program and the boys need it in todays society. But it sounds like we are top heavy and need to change a few things.

  • Tim
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:50 a.m.

    I will be happy to keep helping the boys as Scoutmaster, but my pocket book will not be open to pay that kind of money to professional scouts. I am very troubled by this information.

  • Annonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:35 a.m.

    Our 2 sons benefited greatly from scouting. Who cares about comparative salaries? It means nothing. The benefits of the the Scouting Program far outweigh any other issues. I applaud all the volunteers who donate their time and work diligently to make scouting fun for the boys. People don't whine about the millions that rock stars make. It's the law of supply and demand. There are many more physicians, teachers, and whatever other profession you want to name around the country. Professional scouters salaries should not bother anyone. The money donated by people is put to good use. What about all the boys who get into trouble with the law, are on drugs, etc.? I would venture to say that far fewer boys are running afoul of the law are boy scouts. The churches in Utah that sponsor scout units are doing society a big service. I would advocate contributing to scouting. Take a look at what happens to funds donated to a lot of the high profile charities around the country. A large amount of the funds donated to those organizations are sifoned off by organizations doing the fund raising....a small portion of the funds contributed benefit recipients.

  • Utterly disgusted
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:35 a.m.

    As others have written, the BSA has taken their last donation from me.

    The program has done wonders for my 4 sons, but Scout offices are notoriously poorly run. Every family learns to be meticulous in their record keeping because odds are, the scout office has screwed something up.

    I see no evidence of scouts being well run by its executives.

    Scouting flourishes because of volunteers. It flourishes DESPITE paid scouting leadership, not because of it.

  • m8klifegr8t
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:34 a.m.

    I have worked in scouting for more than 20 years. I also was a life scout. Many years ago the scouts in our ward were making plans for their scout camp that was going to be bigger than in years past. It was discovered that there were funds enough to send one more boy--a boy from a single mom who hadn't participated in the annual fund raiser; however, the scout master protested--claiming it wasn't fair to those boys who had worked at the fund raiser. I was disappointed in all those who upheld that decision. Since then, I have been very upset at the compensation of professional scouters--especially those making huge salaries--while the rest of us volunteer. I will not be supporting friends of scouting ever again. I hope the LDS church realizes that the scouting program is not what it should be.

  • dean
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:29 a.m.

    I have long thought scouting being the activity arm for the young men was a waste for many that had no interest in scouting. We, in the church, tend to put more emphasis on getting eagle than the priesthood. My days of participating were over when a professional scouter, speaking at an Eagle court of honor said there were eagles and turkeys.

  • Trent
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:28 a.m.

    I'm LDS and I've watched the young Women's program develop and flurish. I'm wondering when the LDS chuch will gracefully part from the Gluttenous scouting program and develop their own Young Men's program. I'm part of Scouting, and honestly need to try hard to keep my "game face" on for both the young men and the church leadership. I think they should hire someone at the church office building for $70 k a year and give them 2 years to develop a young men's program by leveraging other Church resourses and I think you'll find a much more meaningfull program.

  • Disappointed
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:28 a.m.

    That's more donations from this family. I've been a leader in the Scouting program for a long time and I'm finished. BSA's impact on our local unit is nill. Every year we get a higher quota for our Stake from BSA...for what? Our troop quit going to organized BSA scout camps because we were mistreated by the staff and disappointed in the programs. A self-organized camp has always been our best result. We don't need Mr. Moore for that....

  • Jealousy
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:26 a.m.

    What good did this article do?

    Not one mention of a better program.
    No suggestions for improvement.

    Just jealousy and dissatisfaction. Sounds like Ralph Nader.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:23 a.m.

    In the 70's I lived in Idaho and was trying to buy a home. However the new scout executive came in and paid cash. I found out he was making four times what I was as a medical rep. Perhaps executives in teaching and scouting better wake up before volunteers revolt and they have to work 200 hours a week to prove their worth.
    Thank you Wayne.

  • YM Pres
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:18 a.m.


    Duty to God and mutual nights are sufficient to meet the boys needs. In every ward I've been in the boys resist the scouting program. This article and blog prove that there's no interest at the grass roots level and it's a runaway train at Sr. Leadership levels.

  • Finally!
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:16 a.m.

    I don't like what has happened to scouting. It was a good program when it started and did good things until the people at the top got greedy. He can get as teary eyed as he likes but that salary is WAY over the top for the amount of work he does. They don't train the volunteers like they should, they require all sorts of funds they do NOTHING to obtain and they stay as uninvolved in anything requiring actual work with the boys as possible. I have NEVER given money to the program and I never will. I am so GLAD Deseret News wrote this article!

    The Girl Scout program is not any better.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:15 a.m.

    I did not donate this year...Now I think I made the right decision!

  • you salary is donated
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:14 a.m.

    My wife and I regularly donate 500 hours and about $500 dollars to BSA each ear. I didn't realize that my efforts included a 2% tax to fatten some Executive's pay. Yet another thing wrong with our society.

  • hombre de steele
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:12 a.m.

    Excessive Compensation justified because they work hard? Give me a break! I used to give to Friends of Scouting, but not now!

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:10 a.m.

    Boy have things changed! I was raised as a scout execitives daughter and as I recalled we lived pay check to pay check. We lived in a small home. My parents bought groceries once a month. When the peanut butter and jelly was gone we would put Ketchup on our toast. We ate homemade bread, one gallon of milk was stretched to 4 with the addition of powder milk. We wore hand me downs till we were old enough to get a job. My dad worked hard at the office all day and at meetings somewhere most every night. He was an execitive about 35 years. Many of those in the great Salt lake council. Somewhere along the line something has gone real crazy in the last 30 years!

  • Get a grip people
    Nov. 11, 2007 8:05 a.m.

    I've been "called" to lead scouts at every level, and despite the fact I've never received a dime for it I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.

    But if I were *hired* by an organization to it *full time* then you're darn right I'd want to be well-compensated, or I wouldn't do the job.

    Everyone thinks they're underpaid while everyone else is overpaid. I highly doubt that 99% of the people complaining about these salaries would turn down the job or return part of their paycheck.

    No, they'd take it straight to the bank, because they'd believe they deserved it.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:55 a.m.

    Not every ward in the Church automatically registers all boys for Cub/Boy Scouts. In fact, I've never seen that done outside Utah.

  • Unbelievable
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:49 a.m.

    I have always refused to put money in the Friends of Scouting-envelope that our LDS ward "compels" you to fill. Instead I found ways to give it to support girls activities. Glad I did. I hope this article will be an eye-opener for many.

  • Mustang
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:46 a.m.

    While the objectives of Scouting are noble, this article exposes a huge problem with the LDS Church's association with the it. The compensation practice within the Scouting organization is a clear misuse of donations and once again calls into question, "what does the money I donate go towards?" With the legal issues already shadowing this program, this scandal seals the fact that this program needs to be purged and re-focused on the true purposes upon which it was founded. The LDS Church is the Scouting program's biggest financier. FOS uses high pressure fund raising tactics to preserve it's revenue and places an incredible burden upon the Wards of the LDS Church to accomplish it's goals. This article exposes very concerning behaviors and issues with the Scouting program that cannot be overlooked. It is incumbent upon all members of the LDS Faith to re-examine their relationship with the Scouting program and how they individually choose to support it. For me personally, I will no longer be donating to the FOS and will more generously donate to other areas within the LDS Church where I know how the funds will be used and not merely padding the pockets of overpaid non-profit executives.

  • one_teadher
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:46 a.m.

    My husband and I are both Cub Scout Leaders. While I tend to agree that there is reason to question the salaries I also wonder at a second issue raised by the others posting here. I felt I had to comment on the boys not wanting to go. We are members of a community pack where all our boys are there by choice. They work hard, have lots of fun and are often hard to send home. They greatly enjoy being members of the pack. As a teacher the difference from the boys who want to be there and my students who must is amazing. If your boy isn't interested in the scout activities you might want to find out why.

  • Bollardo
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:43 a.m.

    Wow. Being in scouting for years - I've done what ever it takes to get the job done. Taken vacation time off work, camp outs, friends of scouting, scout camps, merit badges, etc.

    I'm sorry but for a non-profit organization - that is way to much compensation. That was a great article. Something should be done.

  • Dave
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:40 a.m.

    The scouting propram ie no different than all the organizatione that ask for your donations. I am amazed that people continue to be so gullable.

  • Underpaid
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:35 a.m.

    Mr. Moore works long hours and says he could go elsewhere for more money. Please go! Many of us work very long hours too and don't approach this amount. With all the experienced scouters in the valley, I'm sure BSA can find an honest, hard-working scouter who won't "rob" the unknowing Friends of Scouts contributor who are being strong-armed by leaders to contribute.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:34 a.m.

    Whether just culturally or instituitionally, the scouting program should not be so intertwined with the LDS church.

    I believe it to be a huge conflict of interest to have ecclesiastical leaders "fund-raising" for this program (especially now, where we see that these funds go) and to "call" or basically require both children and adults to commit to this program.

    The LDS church should make this program solely voluntary (and no, by the bishop "calling" someone to this position does not make it voluntary) and let those interested to participate in the program merely sign up and participate.

  • Ex-Friend of Scouts
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:28 a.m.

    No more Friends of Scouts contributions from me. What benefits do we see from these professional scouters? Not much from what I can see. The penalty for not reaching quotas for their salaries goes right against the Scout Law. I'm boycotting the next Friends of Scouts drive.

  • Good story
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:28 a.m.

    Scouting shouldn't be compared with the inflated prices of corporate America because most of the funds generated in scouting are donations which makes it even worse of what we see in other corporations.

    This article makes me sick and I will never donate to any scouting program every again.

  • What's next?
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:23 a.m.

    I would like to see a follow-up story on the Young Men's program that the LDS church created many years ago and then shelved because too many people wanted to keep the "tradition" of scouting. If we took the money and energy we spend trying to keep the national BSA happy (and well-paid), we could have an organization for our young men that would be incredible in making opportunities to provide powerful, meaningful service to the world and actually building character in our young men.

  • Dean of Ed.
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:20 a.m.

    Excellent article! It's always nice to know what the truth is. The fake tears at the end of the interview by Paul Moore were tears of probable and eventual loss.

  • Rip Off
    Nov. 11, 2007 7:07 a.m.

    I couldn't believe what I just read. Both my boys became eagle scouts in Europe while we were stationed in Belgium. We did our own programs with no help from "The Council." Now, 25 years later, I still give more than asked for to "Friends of Scouting." NO MORE! Look at all those who donate time in the trenches, while those who sit in the office for a reported 80 hours per week, make $200,000 plus - a complete rip-off. Working so hard, how can they have time to spend that kind of money, Hah! The Church ought to pull out of scouting. I WILL!!

  • um, ok.......
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:57 a.m.

    the problem when the boys come looking for donations, is we know who they are and we want to help them. sending them away empty handed is almost implying we dont care. too bad its not the executives that go door to door begging for money.

  • Florida Eagle
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:46 a.m.

    I for one have never given to FOS. I earned my Eagle in a SLC troop. This year is the first time I have ever even heard of FOS. My bishop who's son is in a another troop outside of the church does not agree with it,nor will he ask the members of our ward to donate. As far as boys in scouting, most are not interested due to the lack of parental support of the program. As far as leaders having to pay for everything, turn your receipts in and get reimbursed by the ward. That is the program. Scouts should have its own budget allocated to them,besides the young men's budget and with the size of wards in Utah, that should be substantial.

  • Dewaine M. Brown
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:41 a.m.

    I am a former Boy Scout, Scoutmaster, Friends of Scouting VOLUNTEER. In a recent movie a statement was made. "There is nothing so strong as the HEART OF A VOLUNTEER." I feel these posted comments are rather affected by attitude. I am greatful for the training I received in Scout Leadership Training and Woodbadge. I worked through the years with hundreds of men in our Council. I saw all kinds of men. Disinterested leaders without training had disinterested boys. As a boy I was under two troops.
    The first for 15 months and I had good advancement. The second with disinterested leaders and I had very little advancement. I did not get my Eagle. I have accumulated many stories of how being an Eagle
    Scout help men obtain jobs and improve their careers. I also have stories of men who after Woodbadge training improved their education and careers from leadership skills they obtained. I also have one story of a leader who said, "I have made up my mind these boys are not interested." He was not interested himself. Is the posting of the late night 8 comments acutally made late night? Volunteers at late night? I don't know.

  • Pay them what they are worth
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:39 a.m.

    Why not pay them what they are worth? If they are doing an incredible job then they should be paid accordingly. There is a big difference between doing this part time as a volunteer and full time. I have done this part time in Logan as a volunteer and am amazed at how well things run.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:34 a.m.

    For many years our troop has used non-BSA sites for summer camp. The boys have more fun, can do more merit badges, the food is edible and the cost is no where nearly as high.
    Most of the 'expensive development' and camp maintenance is done by volunteers so you can cross that off the list.

  • Mark
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:32 a.m.

    You all should be ashamed of your negative comments. BSA has helped countless number of boys in so many ways. Having been a volunteer leader in BSA for over 20 years, I do not regret a single moment. I cant describe the feeling when a young man comes to me after he is married & having children, and expresses his appreciation for his experiences as a youth in our troop, and I can observe him for how he turned out when I may have had doubts when he was younger.

  • Bye Bye Boy Scouts Inc.
    Nov. 11, 2007 6:30 a.m.

    Every year I faithfully write a substantial check to support the Boy Scouts. After reading this article, I will NEVER donate another dollar to Friends of Scouting.

  • outdated
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:44 a.m.

    The Boy Scout program is no longer effective in helping boys to stay out of trouble or learn skills that apply to life. Kids no longer need sheepshanks or half-hitches, they need to know about amortization and how to speak intelligently in a job interview.

    Forcing kids to go to scouts doesn't help them in any way. It's time for the LDS Church to do the inevitable and transfer its resources to a program that is less bloated and more in tune with what kids need today. Let kids who want to be in scouts do so, and let the other kids learn life lessons other ways.

  • marcaz
    Nov. 11, 2007 5:39 a.m.

    Very said disclosure indeed. If this guy lived in NYC, then perhaps his six figure salary could be justified. But, in SLC, this salary is way above the norm. It's ridiculous and irresponsible on the part of the BSA

  • Japan BSA
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:47 a.m.

    I agree the salaries are out of line. But after looking at the comments, I am surprised. I too have experienced the frustration of uninterested youth and parents. But the problem is not scouting the program. It is us. We have let out youth get too interested in TV, Games, Internet etc. Scouting provides balance and teaches important gospel principles to YM through its activities. It is easy to blame a system or others for the problems. When you think the problem is out there or someone else, you become the problem. Push for positive change, but do not criticize the program.

  • Rick
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:43 a.m.

    Now it makes sense. I've always wondered why so we had to send so much money to the the BSA with little or zero return on investment. Although I had some nebulous idea of how much was wasted, I had no idea it was this bad.

    There is absolutely no way that I will ever participate again in the form of donations. What a joke. I guess anybody can rationalize anything if they try hard enough.

  • Amy
    Nov. 11, 2007 4:38 a.m.

    I have been a Cub Scout Committee Chairperson, Den Leader, and Cub Master. I put 150% into these "callings". You reap what you sow. Those years were a blast!!! Other volunteer positions were poorly staffed, so I planned the summer day camps, too. The spirit of scouting was alive in our little area. High attendance and constant advancements. Enthusiasm and preparation go a LONG way. I am a huge supporter of scouting. Someone has to be "on top", though. That is their career. Of course they need to be compensated. My husband was a DE (district executive) for a while. However, he made more money teaching, still with children, and he didn't have to spearhead fund raising! Yes, the popcorn is good, BUT....

  • Open Minded Thinker
    Nov. 11, 2007 3:27 a.m.

    There is so much whine in here, where people are getting drunk on self pity.

    Of course the scouting has aspects of it that are like a corporation. Would you really want a volunteer working 60+ hours per week at Paul Moore's professional Scout executive?

    Steven says "The level of compensation exceeds what is available in most private corporations of similar size." Which survey did you read? I know a company of 13, in which three of them make more than Paul Moore does.

    If you all complain loud enough, maybe you can force Paul Moore from his job and the Great Salt Lake Council can get a "real volunteer" to come in and screw up the job. Your whining, if successful, would only make scouting go backwards.

  • gutsy story
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:24 a.m.

    My bishop is going to be really upset! For the News to write about a LDS church program, this is going to hurt the volunteer collection program. I'm going to say no this year when they ask me to help. I bet this story gets yanked!

  • FOS Trailblazer
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:22 a.m.

    It seems to me that Scouting has the same executive inflation which many have noted in industry. Their salaries, over time, have increased dramatically vis-a-vis the salaries of entry-level employees.

    It is time for both industry and Scouting to bring their executive salaries down out of the stratosphere. There is no reason the chief executive's salary should be more than three times the entry-level employees'.

  • Other programs?
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:10 a.m.

    The News could do a great service by letting us know what other youth programs are out there without high-priced leaders. I feel that if everyone involved cares enough to volunteer, the primary purpose is the youth. When you care enough to give your very best -- your time -- the outcome is a better product. If the purpose is to make a buck, you don't care about the end product. Kids are not "products" or "programs"!!!

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:07 a.m.

    Powell, the retired executive from the Utah National Parks Council, said, "When people asked what I do, I said name any 10 careers and a Scout executive touches them."

    He said that includes being an educator, human relations director, salesman, promoter, organizer, disciplinarian "and sometimes a security guard, a plumber, a custodian or a garbage man if that is what the job requires."

    Sounds like about half of what a teacher does yet the teacher makes about one fourth of the salary.

    I, too, stopped giving to friends of scouting this past year.

    I just became disillusioned with the whole scout office. They keep dishing off their work on to us. Now they don't even do the merit badge paper work for us. We have to go online and try to navigate their horrible website while doing our "volunteer" work. My goodness what do the people in the office do?

    By the way, I am a former scout master and our ward met the FOS quota each year. I have never heard of the 10% gold level discount. Where do they keep that secret?

  • Tenderfoot
    Nov. 11, 2007 2:02 a.m.

    My boys did not like scouting, but they were registered anyway. Most of the boys didnt want to be scouts and the poor scoutmaster only lasted a year just herding boys each week. it was a waste of time and money and did very little to build character. i took my kids to camp and it was a horrible week trying to keep all the kids out of trouble because they had no interest in the "program" and were upset they "had" to go.

    The local council may have big numbers, but the boys are not there because they want to be. If it were volunteer only, the numbers would be 100th of what they are now.

  • Scouter
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:51 a.m.

    Scouting is no different than any other business.
    Most CEO and presidents make huge sums of money and pay employees little. The boss gets the free trips to watch the Jazz or the Cougars. The boss gets the free dinners in the Jazz Sports Club. When the boss goes to lunch, it's on an expense account. When the boss visits his kids in Colorado, he stops in a related business so he can write off or expense the trip. The boss' cell phone is company paid. The company pays the boss parking space. The boss has little idea how his product is produced (in most cases). When the boss promises something to his board of directors, he is NEVER held accountable. If he leaves, he gets a LARGE bonus, no matter the performance or promises. The boss ALWAYS gets a huge annual bonus -- and usually never contributes to the product.
    Scouting is no different. It's a business and it's big bucks.

  • 1968 Eagle
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:47 a.m.

    Maybe the scouging "big business" is what's killing scouting?
    When I was an avid scout kid in a state to the East of Utah, the boys in the troop wanted to be there and our parents were the leaders and TOOK us to camps. I remember time spend with my dad!
    The only (ONLY) paid scout person was a lady who ran the office and managed the paperwork. The scout exec was a local business person who VOLUNTEERED as a way to help the community. His time was DONATED to the program and he was a very influential business leader and community leader -- and he cared enough to volunteer and use his community skills to help the program.

    Scouting has become a BIG business -- and it seems, all about money and not about youth.

    I need to find an all-volunteer community program to donate to. A group with focus toward people and not toward making money. (Have you ever priced scout uniforms and patches? It's costly)

  • Wowzer!
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:42 a.m.

    I have been "called" to be a scout leader several times. I have to manage kids who don't want to be there, beg parent involvement of parents who don't care if their kids participate, use my own truck to haul gear and pay my own gas. I get the "opportunity" to raise funds. Let's see....I have to figure out how to get funds for camps -- oh, and I have to take my vacation days to take kids camping because parents will not go with their kids. So every time I get "called" I figure on a big family budget hit, my truck gets damaged, and I have no vacation to spend with my own family. And for this, my pay is.....

  • Numbers game
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:39 a.m.

    You should note that in every Mormon ward, EVERY boy aged 8 through 18 is registered in Scouting whether they're interested in Scouts or not. Many (a majority in the wards I've been in) have no interest in Scouting. So it becomes a weekly babysitting day where boys, who don't care for Scouting, just hang around and often get into mischief.

    And then once a year, the poor Scout leaders have to figure how to pay for expensive camps, buy expensive badges and feed hungry Scouts. And then go door to door and beg for funds.

    I've wondered how many boys would register if a) the program was voluntary and not mandated by the LDS church and b) parents ( or boys ) had to pony up the registration costs now 100% paid for by the LDS church.

  • Never liked Boy Scouts
    Nov. 11, 2007 1:28 a.m.

    I never liked Scouts when I was that age because I was forced to go. All I heard for years was 'Eagle Scout, get your Eagle Scout.' I do agree that this article has killed the Friends of Scouting campaign. My ward has been beating the streets for 2-3 weeks. Maybe now the LDS Church will see they have been duped.

  • Diusgruntled Scout Master
    Nov. 11, 2007 12:44 a.m.

    I am a scout master in our area. I have a master's degree and about 15 years in Scouting. I spend about 9 hours a week for the boys, yet I am paid nothing for *my* time. To say that my time and experience are worth nothing while theirs is worth over $200,000 is an insult to me.
    Let them pound the pavement doing Friends of Scouting from now on.

  • Steve
    Nov. 11, 2007 12:24 a.m.

    This is absolutely absurd.

    The level of compensation exceeds what is available in most private corporations of similar size.

    I have two boys in Scouting. But I will not be making further Friends of Scouting donations. I am appalled.

  • Norcal
    Nov. 11, 2007 12:21 a.m.

    Well this article just killed Friends of Scouting. Bummer.