No points given for anti-voucher class

UEA workshop won't count toward teacher license renewal

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  • Voucherites benefit from public
    Oct. 24, 2007 11:42 p.m.

    I have a better idea. If mass transit users agree not to own a vehicle and not use the state highway system we can give them free money too. If people will agree to hire private bodyguards, security and emergency services we can give them money back for not using our public safety system. I also think that we can agree that if people choose not to vote and promise not to they can get money back for not utilizing our representative system of government. If they agree to buy only bottle water they should get money back for not using the municipal water system? If they take care of their bodily functions in a bucket and hire a company to dispose of them can they get money back for not using the city's waste system?

    Let's follow this to it's logical conclusion and allow everyone to get money back on all the services we benefit from so long as we do not personally use them. It shouldn't matter that voucher supporters benefit from public education if they enroll their children in private school because they should enjoy the other benefits without the responsibility.

  • Great Idea!
    Oct. 24, 2007 10:09 p.m.

    We all pay taxes for public transportation, just as we do for public education. You know, I have chosen to purchase a Suburban because that works out better for my family. I'd appreciate it if everyone would help me pay for that Suburban because, really, everyone would benefit from not having my five, very active children on the buses or trax. That would free up space, lower the noise level, and public transportation money wouldn't be spent on my family. I appreciate the choice I have to use public transportation or provide my own, but I really would like everyone to pitch in and help me pay for my private choice. Thank You!

  • Des News is rational and reasona
    Oct. 24, 2007 8:46 p.m.

    Anonymous, I have seen the exact opposite. Some of the things I have posted would not have been posted had there been a "moralist" screening every post. It is true that every post is screened but that allows for more rational discussion to take place and for us to avoid unnecessary name-calling and attacks. This is what Deseret News screens and I for one appreciate it and I am willing to wait for my comments to be posted. This isn't a traditional online forum where posters can post back and forth every minute or two minutes and I for one enjoy that benefit. If you want something else like instant gratification than I suggest the Daily Herald forum where any reasonable person doesn't want to post. I will stay with the Des News because these forums are really awesome.

  • Public School Teacher
    Oct. 24, 2007 8:33 p.m.

    A house divided cannot stand. Public schools have problems, but diverting resources and support away from them will not help. I believe it will be the downfall of our society's educational system.

    I spend so much of my personal time and money preparing for teaching at a public elementary school. My sacrifices are certainly not uncommon! Reading some of these comments is like a kick in the face. The general population does not understand the burdens of teaching, and there is very little appreciation for our work. (I won't even begin to discuss the financial difficulties.) It is no wonder that so many teachers leave the profession after just a few years.

    Start appreciating the work teachers do. Support education for all by voting against vouchers.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 24, 2007 7:13 p.m.

    My apologies DN, apparently it was only an hour and fifteen.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 24, 2007 7:06 p.m.

    Why does it take the DN almost two hours to post my comments? Please tell me it's not because they've got some deputized moralist screening every post that's added.

  • Anonymous
    Oct. 24, 2007 5:51 p.m.

    "school is nothing more than a government daycare"

    What other "daycare" do you know of that can teach my kids calculus? Nice try.

  • Mark
    Oct. 24, 2007 5:06 p.m.

    To Derek,

    If your child has gone to any school for five years and not know the basics, you as the parent have failed not the school. Parents are ultimately responsible for the education of their children. School is nothing more than government daycare.

    Ref 1 does not take money away from public education! Ref 1 does not use from monies appropriated to education, rather it is a new fund. UEA wants that money for itself.

    Jordan District and Utah as a whole has the highest graduation rates in the country. Teachers are doing great at the pay they receive. Saying education will improve with higher teachers salaries is a non-sequitor. Paying teachers more money if there is a shortage of teachers as the forcast indicates is a much better argument.

    All in all Ref 1 offers parents more choices. We need more Charter (which are public) and private schools to keep our public schools in check. We owe our children at least that much.

    Giving parents more of a say as to where their tax dollars goes is another freedom that Ref 1 will grant. I will send my daughter to public schools, but we nned the choice. Period

  • Derek
    Oct. 24, 2007 3:23 p.m.

    Steven, you write:

    "No, public school teachers for the most part are firmly against the Voucher program because it fails to do the things it was purported to do--help the poor and struggling needy go to Private school. The bill lacks safeguards to ensure quality education is even a goal, such as lax rules regarding teacher quality and testing. There isn't even a yearly audit to prevent fraud. The first one happens five years down the road. By then millions could be funneled into a school that has not taught the kids even the basics."

    It's interesting that you make your comment about the voucher bill not helping the poor when it hasn't yet been implemented to prove or disprove that assertion. I knew we had one prophet living in this state, I guess I'll add you to that list.

    And you're right, there isn't a yearly audit to prevent fraud. Fortunately we have such things in the public school system that prevent fraudulent uses of our tax dollars like that $4 million book scandal that happened up in Davis county...oh wait, that was in the public school system. Maybe this accountability argument isn't all it's cracked up to be.

  • rukidding
    Oct. 24, 2007 2:50 p.m.

    I spent the last three years teaching middle school reading in Vegas. I taught at a title I school. I have a master's degree. I coached a basketball team. I worked close to ten hours a day. I was paid $39,000 a year. Moving to Salt Lake meant taking a pay cut of roughly $4,000 to teach publicly. I looked into teaching at a private school. That meant taking a $14,000 pay cut. I loved my "poor students" in Vegas and would have given my tax money to see them suceed even if that meant going elsewhere. But I will not pay money to send them to a school where a college degree is not required and practices are not monitored. It's sad that millions of dollars appear for advertising for this issue, but when teachers ask for more money for supplies, etc., it is no where to be found!

  • amen
    Oct. 24, 2007 2:05 p.m.

    (to Educated's comments)

    The schools get their funding for the number of each student enrolled. All they want is the highest number of bodies possible. I dont think they care about YOUR child as much as they do the funding that is attached to your child's enrollment.

    I am all for OPTIONS for parents!

  • Re: it's a small world after all
    Oct. 24, 2007 1:47 p.m.

    Yes, teachers get the same credit for going to Disneyland during UEA weekend as you get for going to Disneyland during General Conference weekend!

    BTW - I'ts not just a world that's small!

  • Not fooled.
    Oct. 24, 2007 1:19 p.m.

    Ted Kennedy donated thousands to defeat referendum one in Utah. That's all the reason I need to vote for it.

  • Educated
    Oct. 24, 2007 12:35 p.m.

    I cannot believe that a state that is supposed to be so educated is so easily manipulated by the teachers union in this state (it is a union, a rose by any other name...). Vouchers will benefit the public school by increasing the amount of spending per student, that is very significant. Further, why should a private school be regulated? Private schools don't have requirements now for certification and so forth, so why does that make a difference? If the private schools are so bad, then people will not send their kids there. However, it is accepted that most of the private schools offer a better education than our public school in part because they can refuse students. They only take the ones they want and they are not top heavy in administration, like our public school system is. The UEA is against this because it is about power...their loss of power. If they no longer have a monopoly, then they are rightly afraid that they won't have the same amount of power. I just don't see the UEA or anti-voucher people being honestly concerned about the children, and that is what is most important...right?

  • private school
    Oct. 24, 2007 11:34 a.m.

    if you want to send your kids to private school. parents should pay 100% if you believe the state education is cut for your bright kid let's fix the state run edu system if anyone believe there is one.

  • Mahershalalhashbaz
    Oct. 24, 2007 11:11 a.m.

    Voucher opposition is hypocritical. They say certified teachers are not required in private schools. They aren't in public either. Most substitute teachers aren't certified. They sometimes teach for up to a year. They are also hypocitical when they say private schools don't have to accept everybody. Neither do public schools called charter schools. Why did the Utah Democrat party voice opposition to vouchers? Because they get the majority of their campaign donations from the UEA. Which history books about Bill Clinton, Al Gore, and global warming do you suppose they favor in public schools? You guessed it, the liberal version of history. Public schools have so many holes and flaws, time to get some competition.

  • Mike again
    Oct. 24, 2007 10:34 a.m.

    correction - payed to paid - sorry

    I know it makes the public crazy when a teacher
    makes a spelling error.

  • mike
    Oct. 24, 2007 10:30 a.m.

    Just so you know about one teacher's pay and have
    some real but not exact numbers. Fifteen years
    teaching, base salary 51K for a 184 day contract.
    That is about $34.50 per hour. There is no holiday
    or vacation pay. There are the usual sick days and other payed days for family emergencies. Health
    insurance $400+ per month for family coverage.
    There is additional $$ to earn for additional work.
    I also have apart time job to help out because my
    wife is a stay at home mother. This is our choice.

    The biggest benefit of being a teacher is the chance
    to be with your children and try to teach them some
    useful life skills. The biggest downside is being
    with your children, most notably the parents who are trying to shift their parental responsibilites to the education system. Have a nice day.

  • Steven Jarvis
    Oct. 24, 2007 10:25 a.m.

    Justin Tyme,

    By allowing non-licensed teachers to teach as the Voucher bill does for private schools, there never will be a shortage of 'teachers'. Truth is, that many private schools (and public Charter schools) pay significantly less than District schools, especially when it comes to benefits like State retirement.

    No, public school teachers for the most part are firmly against the Voucher program because it fails to do the things it was purported to do--help the poor and struggling needy go to Private school. The bill lacks safeguards to ensure quality education is even a goal, such as lax rules regarding teacher quality and testing. There isn't even a yearly audit to prevent fraud. The first one happens five years down the road. By then millions could be funneled into a school that has not taught the kids even the basics.

    The first poster is not a teacher, more likely a paid lobbyist by PCE. They have been out in force for weeks especially on this board.

  • swrl
    Oct. 24, 2007 9:56 a.m.

    Once again the un connected legislature is controling a program where a majority has said we don't need. But what do we know. Let them educate us as to why they vote with the hiarchy.

  • it's a small world after all
    Oct. 24, 2007 9:42 a.m.

    So are credits given for all the Disneyland/SoCal trips teachers choose to take with their families during their, cough, UEA, cough, preparatory weekend?

  • Supporter
    Oct. 24, 2007 9:39 a.m.

    To Bill, you know, they are looking for more teachers. If you envy their schedule you could become a teacher. My family likes this schedule, but we also knew and accepted that there would be a trade off for it (a lower salary). Also, they are paid for working a set number of days. The UEA days aren't paid time off. They are not being paid in their contract for these days. Sometimes it just isn't understood that teachers aren't shirking their responsibilities. They just aren't doing something that is very visible, but isn't a requirement. It is like if your company offered extra training on Saturday. You can go, but you aren't paid to be there. Many teachers do a lot of extra training and take advantage of opportunities that no one knows about.

  • Justin Tyme
    Oct. 24, 2007 9:28 a.m.

    Will the UEA offer a class that offers a different perspective? Don't bet on it.

    Do Public School Teachers not understand economics?

    I got a call from a 5th Grade Teacher asking me to vote against Referendum 1. I am always surprised by educated Americans who dont seem to understand basic economics.

    If public school teachers understood economics, they would all vote for Referendum 1.

    Why? Because in a free market, shortages produce an increase in prices. Why are starting salaries for Pharmacists over $100,000 a year? Because of a pharmacist shortage.

    Why arent teachers salaries increasing? Because teachers dont work in a free market environment, they work in a monopolistic environment. Many pharmacies are competing for pharmacists. Only one school system is competing for teachers, so they can increase work loads on teachers instead of raising their salaries. There arent enough private schools in Utah to be a real competitor so if you want to live in Utah and teach school you have to accept the salary scale offered by the public schools or leave the state.

  • Teacher's Husband
    Oct. 24, 2007 9:25 a.m.

    Bill, no matter how you slice it, a teacher's cake isn't very filling. Yes, they are not in the classroom for some time at Christmas (although I haven't seen a two-week Christmas break in a long time...), and they are off for a chunk in the summer. But during much of their time out of the classroom, they are not really "off." They are working on teaching plans, catching up on grading homework, and doing other things to improve their skills.
    You wish your benefits were as rich as a teacher's? I'm sure many of them wish their salary were as rich as other college-trained, certified professionals. No matter how you try and spin it, teachers are underpaid, and as you have just proved, underappreciated.

  • Bill
    Oct. 24, 2007 9:07 a.m.

    Technically, teachers may be paid on a daily basis (at a higher hourly rate) with no vacation. Realistically, they're paid on a yearly basis (at a lower hourly rate) with two weeks off for Christmas and nearly three months of vacation either during summer or spread out over the year. I wish my benefits were that rich.

  • Right on
    Oct. 24, 2007 8:41 a.m.

    Teacher, too is right on. Teachers and other school employees are only paid for the days they work. They receive NO PAID VACATION.
    There is more to the conference than the voucher issue, as Mrs. Toomer-Cook pointed out.

  • Teacher, Too
    Oct. 24, 2007 8:31 a.m.

    To Teacher: You,of course,know teachers get paid for the days they work. Period. So they are not getting the day off to learn how to use political power. They are there on their own dime. Be truthful in your commentary.

  • and a good thing, too.
    Oct. 24, 2007 7:53 a.m.

    Thank god someone is spending time learning to defeat this disastrous piece of tax-and-spend legislation.

    Go teachers!

  • Teacher
    Oct. 24, 2007 7:16 a.m.

    The teachers union is given two days off improve their skills and earn credit for higher salaries. Instead the time and money is spent by a great many of them learning how to use their teaching positions to defeat a political movement.

    How about giving the rest of us two days of inservice training during our work week to learn how to use or positions and power to promote the political movement of our choice?