2 brothers show no remorse for brutal killings
I think all religions are cults. As is often the case in religion,
sensationalism, hyperbole, and myth replace fact and reality when it comes to
making a good story. I think Ron and Dan were victims of their religious
upbringing, as we are all the product of our upbringing and environment. If
people would start using their critical thinking skills, instead of relying upon
magic and superstition, then we might have some progression into a much brighter
future for all.
You paint with a mighty broad brush. Is it your ignorance speaking?.....
Faith is a disgusting thing.
I made the comment you are referring to and i just wanted to make it clear that
i am atheist and I agree with you that the Catholic church along with ALL
religions are guilty of horrific histories. However i do find Mormonism
especially troubling due to its rapid advance in the world and how young it is
compared to other religions. Its creation parallels that of many upstart cults
that we see pop up in todays world. Religion is repsonsible for so much evil in
this world and the sooner people live their lives for themselves as opposed to
living it for a myth, the sooner we will find global peace. I understand that
its difficult to break away from everything your parents have likely force fed
you your whole life, i was upset when i learned Santa Clause was a fake too!I want to make it clear that i do not hold any hatred towards
religious people, i have many religious friends, this is merely my opinion which
i am free to share on a open forum such as this, as are you. Maybe not at a
dinner table though.
First of all, just because someone does something and they belong to some
religion, DOESN'T MEAN THAT'S WHAT THEY BELIEVE IN! There have been countless
molestations by Catholic preists, I'm pretty sure they don't teach their
believers that it's the right thing to do. The attacks of 9/11, alot of people
that believe in the SAME religion as the terrorists say that their suicide
missions are NOT part of their religion that the terrorists claim to be. They
even say there must be a different Allah because the Allah we know and worship
doesn't say anything about doing that kind of stuff. We are suppose to represent
our families, our school, our religion, whatever you represent, but when someone
falls and all you see is the "religious" flag they are carrying, doesn't mean
you should jump to conclusions and think "that must be what THEY believe in", we
are all human, and humans can fall...but it's not our job to judge, no-one in
this whole entire earth will ever know his mindset.
This comment is in response to an individual on here who claims that the modern
day mormon church is founded on murder and bloodshed. To you sir i ask, are you
catholic, if so, your religion has slaughtered millions at the stake. Dont be so
quick to condemn the mormon faith when you have no idea about its modern
teachings. Mormons are some of the most decent and humble people walking this
earth. they had a violent and disturbing past, like many or all religions. it
just saddens me that people read this book with no objectivity or knowledge of
the mormon church, and then form a belief that everything in this book applies
to the modern day church...
The author of the book is rational unlike 98% of Americans. His opinion is
evident and I am in full agreement "One man's religion is another man's
delusion." Faith is man's most outdated tool against the darkness and death.
Smile, there is no hell.
Amazing how twisted and brain washed some people can become. I grew up with
Brenda in Idaho and was raised in the church. While there are some very good
teachings and practices within, there are some very warped messages and hidden
truths that the church likes to sweep under the rug. These Lafferty boys don't
need to be on death row, they need to be dead. Further, anyone with prior
knowlege of their plans who did not come forward to warn anyone should be
imprisoned at the very least. I have since fallen away from the church, but the
majority of my family are all 'true believers'...I guess I am one of the few
that can think outside of the box and not need to be led to slaughter like the
sheep that most Mormons are...I suppose that many other relgions are much the
same...I know a few Catholics and Assembly of God members who are not too far
off of the fanatical state of the Laffertys. We live in a sad world. The reality
- There is no god, there is no heaven or hell...there is only life and death.
I am a student currently studying to be a paralegal and in one of my assignments
I had to research and learn about this case. I have read the document written in
the court room as well as many other documents that are found in the legal
world. This case truly made me sick. I found myself wanting to learn more about
it and the families involved. My deepest sorrow goes to the families of Brenda
and to Allen. People accuse Allen by stating that he knew about the revelation
and didnt warn his family about it, I believe this to be totally and completly
faulse. I have personally read the testimonies of Dan, Ron and Allen and all
three say that Allen had nothing to do with it and that the shock of losing his
wife and daughter came as a shock just like everyone else, maybe even more so. I
am a Christian that believes in God and am very religious and active in my
faith, hearing this story really made me think of the power of good and evil.
They both exist and there is no comparing the two. Everything is either right or
Being a non-Mormon I have read the Krakauer book "Under the Banner of Heaven"
and have come to the conclusion that while there are some sections of this book
which are very disturbing I don't know enough about the LDS church to make an
objective judgement on the religion as a whole based upon this one book. That
said I don't believe condemning a whole faith based group for the crazy actions
of two individuals is fair nor is very "christian-like." Every religion contains
those individuals who are of the "lunatic fringe" and thus are capable of
committing such heinous acts as those of the Lafferty brothers. The main thing
to keep in mind is that the Lafferty brothers were not members of the mainstream
Latter-Day Saints and instead were acting out on their own warped sense of
He says he is receiving "revelation from God" and now he keeps entering appeals
to the court because he claims he was not fairly represented in his original
trial. I can't think of anyone sane who would want to represent this fool. Also,
who is to say he hasn't received a "revelation" while in prison and he goes on
another killing spree? I don't trust this man at all, especially if he thinks
that what he did wasn't wrong.
I find it interesting what you have written harry. And I being a active Latter
Day Saint, think that this has really been a pity. Although I believe in the LDS
religoun, I have children that don't. And I really know that it is important to
not control my children religously. Because life is a long lesson to learn. And
you cant ruin a persons mind for not complying with your religous beliefs. After
reading this book, Under the Banner of Heaven. I think that freedom applyed
constitutionally, could have stopped this from happening. But with so many
corrupt forms of control. I guess the anger and insanity escaped some how
invinsibly I guess. And that is why ive read this book. Due to the amazment,
that such a small group of people could actually believe this way. And how these
murderers could, for no reason at all, still be alive.
After reading this book, I could definantely tell the fiction involved, to
entertain the readers mind. I really know now that its hard to tell the
difference between good and evil. And I really think these men were decieved by
satin. With the technology of today, these actions have become less and less
possible. Its too bad our rights continue to be taken away as well. The Latter
day saints believe this to be the last days, until the second coming of christ.
It becomes hard to believe the Jews think christ hasn't come yet. I really feel
that satin is most in control currently, or these two murderers would be dead
I used to drink alot of wine. And I concluded no understanding, as to why these
murders couldn't have been stopped before they happened. I also find it very
hard to believe, how such a small group of people could actually believe such
insanity. And how in these modern times, this small belief could be possibly
agreed with. But you can't press rewind and escape the humiliation of being
related. We might blame ourselves for our mistakes. But have Dan and Ron, really
made life worse for many people? So being a constitutionalist, I am usually
against the corrupt modern control of society. So I think that these murders are
like living in a circle you cant escape. Although escaping to a new start, is
difficult to try and enjoy life again. My life would probably be totally
different without this happening.
Absolutely amazing that anyone still believes at this day and age that
"Mormons", Catholics" and other religious sects teach and condone the killing,
rape and exploitation of others. What the Lafferty brothers did they did of
their own free will, unfortunately they justied their guilt by laying the
blaming on the Mormon church.When church members of any religion commit such
heinous acts being the molestation of children by priests, marrying young girls
and murder "in the name of God" we automatically believe it's what they're
taught at church.Try researching facts before jumping on the wagon. John Krauker
wrote a book to sell a book, period. The "facts" are distorted with his
opinions, if he had actually wrote it to be unbiased it would have never left
the shelf. People want controversy, gossip and dirty laundry, applause to
Krakauer for his "Hollywood" version of the truth.
Way to go Krakauer, it's time the someone told the truth about the Mormon
Fundamentalists! Under the Banner of Heaven is a must read by everyone! I would
just like to think that the Feds. will finally put an end to the pedophilia,
polygamy, and other horrible things that happen among the Mormon
Fundamentalists. As for the Lafferty family - I don't dare to say what fate I
wish for them.
under the banner tells it like it is. early brainwashing of any kind will
forwever influence how one lives their lives. how could a guy like mitt romney,
so smart, be involved with mormonism?
I just read "under the Banner" too. Absolutely a great book. I have been trying
to find out why nothing happened to Allen and Claudine Lafferty, and the other
members of the "school" for doing nothing to warn the victims. Did anything
happen to them? Does anybody know? Their silence in this crime equals
complicity in my book, and is reprihensable!! Krakauer did not answer this
question, and I have e-mailed reporters at the SLC Trig and Deseret News, but
have received no answer.
Kudos to Krakauer! Finally an unbiased history of the LDS church, right up
there with Brodie's.
I was fascinated by the book Under the Banner of Heaven and surprised to find
myself reading it all. Krakauer identified sources in the book as anti-LDS,
anti-US govt, anti-FLDS, anti-American Indian, etc. Sometimes you had to
consider the source of the quotations a little more to detect these biases. It
was easy to find imperfection in human behavior, especially religious behavior,
but as the final chapters attempt to illustrate in the interview with Deloy
Bateman and in the author's own thoughts: Can we really quit all believing,
praying, wishing for luck, fearing death, hoping for greater things, seeking
beauty and goodness?After reading I really just want to find out: Is
Ronald still on death row???
I don't know how half of these comments got in here. We're not talking about
"Under the Banner of Heaven" or whether the Mormon Church's teachings caused the
Lafferty's to do such a thing. No normal Mormon is taught this way. I am
enraged after learning about what happened. Both of them need to be on death
row, and they need to be executed quickly. I don't want my tax money paying for
these scumbags to be alive. I'm glad they're going to die by firing squad, but
why can't they die the way they did? Can we hang them, suffocate them, slit
their throats or something like that? I wish the chair were legal in Utah.
I am a devout Mormon (mainstream) and have read "Under the Banner of Heaven". It
is a wonderfully written book. I would recommend it to all my friends in the
church as well as my non-member friends. I agree with gulliver. It is a fair
look into the the mind set of fanatics. Religous or otherwise.
i think they are eveven worst than moslem fundementalists may be equall to
It's about high time we put down the religion pick up the peace pipe and sit
together as men, and discuss, openly & honestly what is truly the worth of
rightesnouss in this world. YHWH said where 3 or more are gathered there I am in
the midst of them, so how about we just stop this absurdity of listening to
people preach stupid crap and we just discuss fact vs fiction. Opinion vs
theology and figure out what it is that is best for society as a whole. I think
the answer would all boil down to 10 simple easy little commandments and nothing
more would be necessary. But let us come to that conclusion through discussion,
not preaching or teaching, but by conclusive measures through conversational
I just finished Under the Banner of Heaven and found it fascinating. For what
it's worth, I don't think the book is unfair to mainstream LDS. I've grown up
with LDS members in northern California and I have always thought they were
decent and hard working people, though a bit clannish. I think any thoughful
reader can see that Krakauer makes a careful distinction between the main LDS
chruch and the nutty fundamentalists. And every religion has a few nuts.
I just finished reading The Banner of Heaven in almost one sitting and came
downstairs for coffee, and to wander around the internet for more data. I have
rarely been moved so much by a book - and I read constantly. The book is clearly
meticulously researched non-fiction, and the author of course expresses much of
his own opinion along the way - how could that be avoided when he is pouring his
heart into the book like that. The writing is breathtaking - I cannot imagine a
person reading chapters in the book like "Evangeline" and not be broken down
emotionally, and terribly frightened by what abysses might be (and probably
are)lurking in the most "sane" and stable human mind. The book reaches a
feverish pitch in the trial in "Judgment in Provo" - Dr. Gardner says how as a
boy "I learned the earth was 6,000 years old, just like two plus two is four."
This theme is carried over into the last chapter, perhaps the most frightening.
That we can learn to accept any sort of horror as normal and even righteous, if
it is ingrained in at a young age.
Reading Under the Banner of Heaven, it appears Mormonism grew up during a time
of incredible fervor, passion, persecution, zealotry and violence (all of it
caused by religion, not all of it caused by Mormonism). The Lafferty's to that
extent are simply the "reductio ad absurdum" of this history.Through
religion, rational people can become unhinged.Cami - you probably
derive great comfort from believing Under the Banner of Heaven is "fiction".
Believing something doesn't make it true.
I would like to say something concerning Under th Banner of Heaven. The author
of that book skewed so much of the information, he wanted every bit of it to fit
his point of view, making his 'non-fiction' book really a fiction novel. He
pretty much says at the end he wrote it the way he wanted to write it whether it
fits with the facts or not, so you base your opinions of the Mormon church off a
guy who says he isn't using the straight facts but the morphed facts? Its like
would you rather listen to a CD that is new and without flaw or a CD that has
been scratched and been sitting in the sun and has water damage that messes the
entire sound? I have to agree with Sam
This is really sad... My question to everyone though is: Abraham was told to
sacrifice his son Issac and almost did. Why would God put someone to such a
test, maybe these crazy brothers thought God was testing them?See, I am a
Mormon and I don't have all the answers...nobody does. I don't understand how
people go mental like that after they grow up in the church. Ben Meachen
you yourself are filled with hatred and don't seem to know anything about the
LDS faith. I believe there will always be things in history that we are not
proud of. Man is not perfect...well, you might be, the rest of us are just
trying to be the best we can be and understand God's will.
Sad and sick. I hope their cellmates "like" them a lot.
Both the author and the Lafferty brothers claim to be seekers of truth. When
seeking truth, belief systems must be held to basic truths and examined under
that magnifying glass. What happened to "loving your neighbor as yourself" and
"turning the other cheek" and loving and praying for those that despitefully use
you? If Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and Watson Lafferty and his sons had held
their belief systems up to those righteous directives, they would have to
question the validity of the tenants they espoused.
Hey Ben Meachen, i agree with everything you have said! It's true, i can't
believe that a religion that young could still be around today and it seems more
violent than any of the older religions.I believe that all religion
is evil, it forces people apart, and starts wars.
Under the Banner of Heaven has opened my eyes to what i can honestly say are
terrifying possibilities. The murders that this book were centered around were
chilling to say the least, however with crimes of passion occuring every year
these murders weren't what rattled me the most. The history of the Mormon church
including both the modern and fundementalist sects is extremely disturbing. Any
devote member of Mormondom who frowned upon the people who knew of Ron's removal
revelation and did not warn Brenda should take a look at themselves for
supporting a religion based on murders, rape, adultery, theiving and
brainwashing. A religion whos leaders and founders share all share the same
qualites as the latter and infact the famous Brigham Young himself has a major
university named after him. Its beyond me how a religion less than 200 years
old, created in an era of journalism and the printing press where their corrupt
history has been documented could evolve at the rate at which it has today. If
supporters of this religion were honest with their history, they wouldn't be
shocked by these murders at all, in fact such acts are the foundation for the
Catholic, Mormon or Protestant we're all Christians and Satan has vowed to
destroy us all. The Lafferty brothers, along with Brenda and her baby, are all
victims of the devil. False revelations aren't nvented- they come from hell's
throne. Praise Jesus that we have not yet fallen victim as well. Or have we?
I just read Under the Banner of Heaven and wanted to express my sorrow over the
tragic deaths of Brenda and baby Erica. How sad that such religious extremism is
rampant in our own society. Ron and Dan Lafferty are really no different than
the terrorists that flew planes into the WTC and the pentagon on 9-11.
I read the book about this story and it made me ball my eyes out. I havent
cried in over 8 years since I served my mormon mission. May god be with the
wright family and all those who are innocent in this tragedy.
Incredible that there are such evil people in the world.How twisted can
you get ? To declare yourself a prophet of the Lord, and kill an innocent woman
and her baby because you feel you are doing Gods work is simply mind boggling.
How much better are those who knew of this horrendous plot beforehand but kept
silent ? The things that people do in the name of religion is chilling.
Not only did Allen know about the "removal revalation" before the murders and
not do anything so did the other brothers and their mother, two accomplisses,
and some members of the fundementalist group to which they the belonged. What
makes the story even more horrifying, than what is presented in this informative
article, is that none of those people tried to stop the murders.