Faith

Hamblin & Peterson: The religion of the biblical patriarchs — and it doesn't appear to be Judaism

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  • common@sense Alpine, CA
    March 23, 2017 6:17 p.m.

    Skeptic posted: ----"But no mention of the Jesus event. The Jesus story was all written about eighty years after death by hearsay and imagination. No Jewish or Roman authentication."------

    Why do we expect in historical antiquity that there would be much of any evidence of Jesus Christ's existence? In a area comprised of just the Holy Land alone there were over a million residents in the time of Christ's short ministry. It was rulers or military men who had their memory inscribed in stone and artifacts. Jesus would have attracted the attention of a very small subset of that population and Jewish and Roman historians would have considered his ministry/disruption to the social/political culture as very insignificant. Nevertheless, there are credible contemporary sources to Jesus Christ's existence (especially of his trial that led to His crucifixion). Josephus, the Talmud, Tacitus who was a member of the Roman consular nobility and recent physical contemporary evidences being unearthed all the time. To make such a statement that there is "no Jewish or Roman authentication" is just not true. At least let's be intellectually honest and diligent in our research of these things.

  • a bit of reality Shawnee Mission, KS
    March 21, 2017 5:11 p.m.

    There is nothing the least bit surprising that the religion of the patriarchs "isn't Judaism." Religion evolves. The Christianity of now, of 1,000 years ago, and of 1,000 years before that are all so different they should rightly be thought of as different religions. Likewise with all other real-world religions.

  • bass679 Novi, MI
    March 21, 2017 1:44 p.m.

    @JSF
    Ohh man this is nothing. Pop over to the SL trib whenever something gets posted about the LDS church. I swear there's hundreds of angry posts within an hour. Mind you part of that might be that the DN moderates anything really terrible or heinous.

  • jsf Centerville, UT
    March 21, 2017 12:51 p.m.

    It is really interesting that when a religious based article gets posted by the DN, the same atheists and agnostics are want to post mocking and derogatory statements about that Christian religion.

    Part of the definition of bigotry is an unwillingness to recognize and respect differences in opinions or beliefs. An intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    March 20, 2017 8:57 p.m.

    Skeptic posted:

    =However, the problem is, if you ask ten different people, God gave them ten different
    =answers.

    People like to talk about the myriads of people who have asked God if their faiths are divinely inspired and have gotten "ten different answers," but they never actually name any names, which leaves me wondering if they've just pulled these people out of their imaginations. Before we can be sure there's any problem with this method at all, someone needs to do a rigorous study to determine whether there's any significant number of people who have used the same method and have gotten different answers.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    March 20, 2017 8:51 p.m.

    Ranch posted:

    =Which god? Odin, Zeus, Poseidon, Ra, Osiris, Baal, Quetzlcoatl, Hermes, Dana,
    =Thor, .... The list of mythological gods is practically endless; why should any you
    =believe in be less mythological than all the others?

    You don't have to name God before you start talking to Her/Him; in fact it strikes me as kind of naive to name God before you try talking to Her/Him. Once you've established contact, THEN you can ask God what S/He prefers to be called. When I established contact I asked God if the LDS Church was true. THAT'S why I believe my deity is "less mythological than all the others."

  • sharrona layton, UT
    March 20, 2017 1:31 p.m.

    RE: D Van Duker . looking upon a serpent, raised up upon a staff.
    In Numbers 21,. They had already forgotten that it was their own sin that caused them to be in the wilderness, and they blamed Moses for it. As a judgment against the people for their sin, God sent poisonous serpents into the camp, and people began to die.
    This showed the people that they were the ones in sin, and they came to Moses to confess that sin and ask for God's mercy. When Moses prayed for the people, God instructed him to make a bronze serpent and put it on a pole so the people could be healed (Num 21:5-9)

    In John 3:14. Jesus indicated that this bronze serpent was a foreshadowing of Him. The serpent, a symbol of sin and judgment, was lifted up from the earth and put on a tree, which was a symbol of a curse (Gal 3:13).

    The serpent lifted up and cursed symbolized Jesus, who takes away sin from everyone who would look to Him in faith, just like the Israelites had to look to the upraised symbol in the wilderness. Jesus was blameless and sinless—the spotless Lamb of God. “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Cor 5:21)..

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    March 20, 2017 1:21 p.m.

    The period of the patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) is an early ancestral religion. The later Israelite religion covers Joshua’s conquest of Canaan through the fall of the Northern and Southern kingdoms. Judaism properly begins with the return of Jews from Babylon and Persia. So when we traverse the linear development of each successive Biblical period, we are turning the pages from one era to another.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    March 20, 2017 1:07 p.m.

    KevinSim says:

    "So people who wonder whether that story is true or not should ask God if it is true or not..."

    --- Which god? Odin, Zeus, Poseidon, Ra, Osiris, Baal, Quetzlcoatl, Hermes, Dana, Thor, .... The list of mythological gods is practically endless; why should any you believe in be less mythological than all the others?

  • D Van Duker Syracuse, UT
    March 20, 2017 12:18 p.m.

    Hutterite: The article was something of a history-lesson, not proselyting. I note that your observations are correct, "The sun does not require an animal sacrifice to rise today, or tomorrow. A forthcoming eclipse does not signal the end of the world, but rather insane hotel prices."

    I bet you would have been one of the more savvy folk; those not taken in or fooled by the sheer idiocy of looking upon a serpent, raised up upon a staff, as a religious cure for snake-bite.

    I thought the background information on Jewish religious words and traditions was interesting and the carved cabinet was pretty cool--even if most commenters appear to look upon the depicted story as folklore & fairytales.

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    March 20, 2017 11:20 a.m.

    @kevinSim,

    You post: "The way I see it, there are good reasons to believe there is a God, whether the "Jesus story" is true or not. So people who wonder whether that story is true or not should ask God if it is true or not, and count on God giving them a response."

    Well said. I couldn't agree with you more.
    However, the problem is, if you ask ten different people, God gave them ten different answers. That is why it is so important that we educate ourselves and learn to think for ourselves, and not to look so much to other supposed authorities and apologists for direction. They have a dominate tendency to directed us towards their wallet and a submissive power of authority.

  • KevinSim Springville, UT
    March 20, 2017 10:18 a.m.

    Skeptic posted:

    =But no mention of the Jesus event. The Jesus story was all written about eighty
    =years after death by hearsay and imagination. No Jewish or Roman
    =authentication. So what is the investigator to swallow here: the gnat or the
    =camel. I guess, to the peddler it matters not, it is what profits most that
    =matters.

    The way I see it, there are good reasons to believe there is a God, whether the "Jesus story" is true or not. So people who wonder whether that story is true or not should ask God if it is true or not, and count on God giving them a response.

  • Ranch Here, UT
    March 20, 2017 9:53 a.m.

    Its all pretty barbaric.

  • CMTM , 00
    March 20, 2017 9:24 a.m.

    RE: Moresureword. The first mention of sacrifice in the Bible:

    " The first Gospel . "Protoevangelium (Gen 3:15), "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and *her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

    Satan "bruised his (Jesus') heel" by attacking Him in numerous ways during His time on Earth, which ultimately ended with Him suffering and dying(sacrifice) on the cross. Through His resurrection, Jesus won the decisive victory, and "bruised the head" of Satan. "Bruising the head" was a fatal blow, meaning that Satan was defeated once and for all. His time on Earth will end, and He will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev 20:10).

    From the very beginning, God had a plan to redeem mankind from the penalty of sin through Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was "manifested" to "destroy the works of the devil" (1 Jn 3:8) ( Heb 2:14-15, Col 2:15)

    *her seed of the woman as Christ is to related to the Virgin birth of the Messiah, as well as the Hypostatic union of the Divine nature with the Human nature of Christ. “when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, ’Made of a Woman…”Gal 4:4).

  • skeptic Phoenix, AZ
    March 20, 2017 9:14 a.m.

    It is comical how apologists argue over straining gnats while swallowing camels. It is the same extension of fact that during the time of Jesus the Romans and the Jews kept extreme detailed accounts and histories of the events of the times including political, military, religious, civil, commercial, and even inventory accounts. But no mention of the Jesus event. The Jesus story was all written about eighty years after death by hearsay and imagination. No Jewish or Roman authentication. So what is the investigator to swallow here: the gnat or the camel. I guess, to the peddler it matters not, it is what profits most that matters.

  • John Charity Spring Back Home in Davis County, UT
    March 20, 2017 9:02 a.m.

    We must be careful lest this discussion devolve into disharmony. We do not want to give the persecutionists fodder for their cannons of persecution. Indeed, I issue my strongest possible condemnation to those who seek to turn the tide against religion. We do not need a return to days like those of Kaiser Wilhelm II of old.

  • Horseapple Salt Lake City, UT
    March 20, 2017 8:03 a.m.

    Beginnings seem to be often judged by the traditions of the current thinking of the day.

  • moresureword Maple Grove, MN
    March 20, 2017 7:27 a.m.

    Brother Hamblin and Brother Peterson give us food for thought. The religion of the biblical patriarchs, however, was not about the fulness of the Gospel of Christ, as delivered to the ancient inhabitants of America, which is focused on something entirely different than what they focus on in their writings on this subject.

    The true "fundamental features of patriarchal religion" are death and destruction by a "House of Israel" that saw themselves as more special and important than other human beings.

    The "story of Cain and Abel" gave fodder to religion to discriminate against blacks and Native Americans and to justify "blood atonement" of human beings, contrary to the true Gospel. True intelligence (as defined by the Prophet Joseph Smith) is not evident in the Old Testament, even as revised by the Mormon religion.

  • IloveTacos BOUNTIFUL, UT
    March 19, 2017 2:46 p.m.

    Matt 13:13-15 is very much fulfilled in the comment section.

    Thanks for your insights Bro Peterson and Hamblin. This confirms many things that have been revealed to me through the spirit in sacred places.

  • redhat Fairfax Station, VA
    March 18, 2017 2:25 p.m.

    Well I hope that the authors would agree that what is called out in the title and what is presented in their article is much ado about nothing. Given both are Mormons it would seem they could understand that God evolved His coventant relationship from patriarch to patriarch , adding the 10 commandments in Moses time to the relationship he had with the Jewish people, claimed by Him to be his own. Prayer and sacrifice, if the authors would "look" continued even as the commandments were added by God to guide his people. I see all of what God commanded through the ages as integral to the Jewish faith.

    In the context of LDS doctrine would the authors say that what Joseph Smith preached as doctrine in the King Follett discourse is far different from the concept of God found in the Book of Mormon? To me it is all Mormonism!

  • CMTM , 00
    March 18, 2017 10:38 a.m.

    RE: The sacrificial system was "imposed until the time of reformation" (Heb 9:10). For Christians,” Christ's sacrifice was the once-for-all.“ Christ, our’ Passover lamb’, has been sacrificed.( 1 Cor 5:7).

    “Whom God hath set forth to be a *propitiation through faith in his blood… for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God(Romans 3:25 KJV)
    Greek #2434 Hilasmos=* a propitiation (of an angry god).VS,Mormonism:

    “ These sacrifices, as well as every ordinance belonging to the Priesthood, will, when the Temple of the Lord shall be built, and the sons of Levi be purified, be fully restored and attended to in all their powers, ramifications, and blessings. This ever did and ever will exist when the powers of the Melchisedek Priesthood are sufficiently manifest; else how can the restitution of all things spoken of by the holy Prophets be brought to pass? It is not to be understood that the law of Moses will be established again with all its rites and variety of ceremonies; this has never been spoken of by the Prophets; but those things which 'existed prior to Moses' day, namely,’ sacrifice’, will be continued.” (Hof C v 4 p.211-212) 1840.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    March 18, 2017 9:28 a.m.

    As we ponder the nuances of meanings of individual words in dead bronze age languages which have since passed through other tongues, all translated by fallible men, consider that this, then, is the basis of much of our strife and animosity today. Including whether the neighbour gets uppity about what day i cut the lawn, and what refreshing beverage I partake of while doing it.
    Perhaps we need be more in the moment. The sun does not require an animal sacrifice to rise today, or tomorrow. A forthcoming eclipse does not signal the end of the world, but rather insane hotel prices.