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Comments about ‘Why does Utah rank so low for women's equality?’

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Published: Wednesday, Sept. 3 2014 6:00 a.m. MDT

Updated: Tuesday, Sept. 2 2014 11:38 p.m. MDT

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Mountanman
Hayden, ID

Some women choose to be stay at home moms where they actually contribute more to society than those who work outside their homes! Utah, then Wyoming were the first states to give women the right to vote. So much for this totally worthless "study".

DeepSpace
Livonia, MI

Here’s a view that has been missing for 40 years in all the tens of thousands of reports about women and work:

Society consists of two “worlds”: the world of work (the productive world) and the world of children (the reproductive world). Obviously each needs the other for its survival, so both are needed for civilization’s survival. Hence, the two worlds are equally important.

Despite this equal importance, what do you suppose is the result thus far of the 40-year-old push for “gender equality”? It seems to be this: We are ending men’s dominance in the world of work (The Economist at http://www.economist.com/node/15174489: "women are gradually taking over the workplace") and, largely because "women are the ones who give birth," preserving women’s dominance in the world of children. (Men have no reproductive rights except the right not to participate in sex. Imagine if women had no rights in the productive world except the right not to participate.)

"The Doctrinaire Institute for Women's Policy Research: A Comprehensive Look at Gender Equality" at Male Matters USA

Stalwart Sentinel
San Jose, CA

Mountanman (sic) - Clearly, you did not take the time to even peruse the "worthless 'study'". Had you bothered yourself for a moment to do so, you would have found that women who stay at home do not affect the study's determination in any way, shape, or form. Rather, this study appears to have factored in a woman's access to health, education, and professional opportunities should she pursue them. Your point about stay-at-home moms has no merit.

Further, simply because Wyoming and Utah were at the forefront of women's suffrage (ironically, this would be something folks from the Right would decry as extreme feminism activity were it to exist today) does not therefore automatically preclude those states from further scrutiny on the subject decades down the road. In fact, it's rather sad to see that those two states had the right priorities at one point but have since shed the mantle of equality - which seems to go hand-in-hand with the radicalization of the Right in those areas. Coincidence? Nope.

Mountanman
Hayden, ID

Stalwart. I actually did read the article and nowhere in it does it mention any accounting for women who choose not to work outside their homes! I am still waiting for any real evidence that Utah and Wyoming have "shed the mantle of equality". Opinions are not facts!

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

Some women choose to be stay at home moms "

That has absolutely nothing to do with the study. The study looks at working women. Still you declare it worthless because of your non sequitur. Sheeez.

I can't wait to hear all the excuses about how women start and stop careers, how they purposefully choose low paying careers, etc. etc. Do yourself a favor and research the study methods that long ago accounted for these phenomena.

Women simply are treated as second class citizens in the Utah culture, all the while smiling as they march off into the sunset hand in hand with their man who's responsibilities they are thrilled not to have...ugh.

SuperNova
Eagle, UT

Citing Utah being a leader in Women's suffrage is funny. This entire generation has nearly passed away, and those alive are centennials. It's great heritage for Utah, but it doesn't necessarily reflect our attitudes today.

The culture in Utah is very male dominated. We like to pretend it isn't; but it very much is. For decades we have been trying to perpetuate "Separate but Equal" but in some areas it has been to our detriment. I understand differences in biology; but in a functional/utilitarian role, they are very much as capable as a man in the workforce.

Happy Valley Heretic
Orem, UT

A close friend of mine was told more than once, by her boss who was also a former legislator, that he couldn't pay her anymore than the least paid male he employed. The position she took over paid a "man" literally twice as much as she was earning doing the same job plus. When she inquired again to the discrepancy she was told that men have families to support, women work because they want to, or like money. This is a sad fact that many, I fear believe round here, but would never be so arrogant or foolish to admit it.

Stalwart Sentinel
San Jose, CA

Mountanman (sic) - Read the actual study, not the article. The study provides you with ample information so you can review their methodology and analyze the factors that accounted for their findings. You will see therein that your point about stay-at-home moms is obsolete.

The real evidence you claim to be looking for (I personally doubt your sincerity) can be found in this study and many more that have used various methodologies but reach the same conclusion: there is a major gender gap in America's workplaces and that disparity often widens if the local populace favors conservatism. I'm sorry to break it to you but these studies are the facts that refute your posts in this DesNews opinion forum which are, well, simply opinion.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

If the main criteria for "Equality"... is the percentage women make up of the work-force... then the answer is obvious. More Utah women think it is more important to make sure their children are nurtured individually by their mothers (instead of a group daycare provider) than to join the workforce.

Just being part of the workforce does not mean "Equality" IMO. Being paid the same amount of dollars... is not "Equality".

To me... "Equality" is determined by how much you contribute to the welfare of the family (not only what you contribute to the bank account).

Contributing to the emotional and physical welfare of the family by staying home and being there for the children (instead of leaving the home to make money for the family)... is as important a contribution to the welfare of the family as going out and getting more money. So they ARE "equal" (IMO)

Mountanman
Hayden, ID

Ok, I will try again! A young woman enters the workforce at entry level wages, just like men do! Later, as is the case in Utah, a large proportion of those women make the choice to leave the work force and to be homemakers while the men continue to work as their salaries increase. So we have a tenure bias in favor of men! Also, there are numerous vocations (as the article points out) that women simply do not enter nearly as frequently as men-so we have a vocation choice bias). One other factor remains to be considered, LDS women are taught that their greatest value and contribution is to be effective mothers and homemakers and the men are taught to be bread winners! I will argue that society is better off with that equal partnership. Not all value can or should be measured with money! That is my point! Sorry if it is so difficult to comprehend! I now leave the discussion!

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

@Those saying "women who stay at home do not affect the study"...

Here are some quotes from the article...

"The Institute for Women's Policy Research, an organization cited in Pew's research, also believes that women have made great strides in Utah’s workforce in recent decades"....

"Wallet Hub's Richie Bernardo wrote in the study's introduction. "By highlighting the most and least gender-egalitarian states, we hope to accomplish three goals: help women find the best career opportunities"...

"So what led to Utah's low score? Executive pay and political representation stand out principally as areas where Utah desperately needs to improve, at least according to Wallet Hub"....

"the gap in pay between male and female executives in Utah is the worst in the country"....

"According to Pew, local "job structure" has a large effect on gender pay"...

"If the state's economy is driven by an industry that historically attracts fewer female workers"...

"Mining, manufacturing and agriculture are all fields largely dominated by men, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and they make up a significant portion of the Utah workforce"...

(obviously being in the workforce WAS a factor in the study)

Red Corvette
St. George, UT

I'm only surprised that Utah came in second to last.

Open Minded Mormon
Everett, 00

Mountanman
Hayden, ID

Utah, then Wyoming were the first states to give women the right to vote. So much for this totally worthless "study".

7:18 a.m. Sept. 3, 2014

=========

Over 100 years ago!

BTW --
Back then,

Utah was also the bastion of PROGRESSIVISM.

Unorthodox marriages,
Universal Healthcare,
Socialist/Communist [United Order],
Social Programs,
1st Universities in the West,
Pro-Immigration,
Pro-Environmental,
Anti-Materialism,
and
nearly 100% Democrat.

Mikhail
ALPINE, UT

If the measure is dollars and cents, equality will never happen. There are many things of value - of higher value - than money.

Yet, the beat goes on. Those who see their purpose as awakening others to "inequality" seem to find some great reward (or compensation) in beating the drum of fairness and equality. I find it interesting that these are usually the same people who demand diversity. Anyone else see the irony of asking for diversity and "equality" in the same breath?

Stalwart Sentinel
San Jose, CA

Mountanman (sic) - Yeah, I hate to break it to you but nearly all studies put forth on this subject also control for the "women leave the workforce to have babies" strawman. And, guess what? Same results.

No, we don't have vocation bias either because, again, nearly all recent studies control for that too by comparing people of the same vocation, experience level, responsibility load, etc... etc....

Truly, you should read the methodology for these types of reports before commenting next time. In all sincerity, every single point you (and others) bring up have been addressed and demonstrated to be pure fabrication.

The Educator
South Jordan , UT

Red states pay women less than men. Blue states strive for equality.

It's in the stats. And the GOP wonders why they continue to fail at getting the women's vote?

airnaut
Everett, 00

‘Why does Utah rank so low for women's equality?’

========

Gee, I don't know?
How about we investigate asking blacks, hispanics, Gays, and Lesbians that same question?

Mister J
Salt Lake City, UT

re SuperNova

"The culture in Utah is very male dominated. We like to pretend it isn't; but it very much is."

I disagree and think that its smoke & mirrors. If you look at the dominant sect in this state; its women who call the shots in most families.

re: Mountanman @ 8:40a today

"...LDS women are taught that their greatest value and contribution is to be effective mothers and homemakers and the men are taught to be bread winners!"

"Not all value can or should be measured with money!"

I disagree. If you ultimate goal is to be a full time mom. Why go to college, etc..? Why not go work in a call center which doesn't require special training.

Look around at your typical LDS family w/ the stay at home Mom. More often than not, they are the ones w/ palatial estates and loads of toys all in the name of trying to keep up w/ the rest of the ward.

JoeCapitalist2
Orem, UT

On the one hand you have people complaining all day long how companies are always searching for the cheapest option when it comes to their work force.

On the other hand, those same people often complain that women are paid significantly less for doing the exact same work as a man.

My question to you is: Why on earth would one of those "heartless" companies hire a man if they can get a woman to do the exact same thing for a significant discount? We should have zero unemployment among women and a very high unemployment among men if all these conditions were really what they are painted to be.

Obviously, something doesn't add up here. Are women really being paid less than men, or are they on average adding less value than do men on average (time, experience, etc.)?

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

@Open Minded Mormon,

I agree with everything you posted @ 9:03 a.m.

So... the question is... what changed? The Democrat Party? Or almost every individual in Utah?

If you think it's every person in Utah... what changed them? Because obviously one or the other has changed. Because Democrats aren't getting 100% of Utah's vote anymore. That's a fact, not an opinion.

If you have convinced yourself that The DNC is the same as it was back then... and only the people of Utah have changed... what changed them?

Did somebody come down and brainwash all of them???

I think it's obvious that the Democrat Party left them, and most Utahns actually CHOOSE not to vote Democrat anymore. Do you have any EVIDENCE to the contrary?? I mean is anybody FORCING them to vote Republican? Have they all been brainwashed by some evil entity? What is it?? What changed them from the people they USED to be?

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