Some women choose to be stay at home moms where they actually contribute more to
society than those who work outside their homes! Utah, then Wyoming were the
first states to give women the right to vote. So much for this totally worthless
Here’s a view that has been missing for 40 years in all the tens of
thousands of reports about women and work:Society consists of two
“worlds”: the world of work (the productive world) and the world of
children (the reproductive world). Obviously each needs the other for its
survival, so both are needed for civilization’s survival. Hence, the two
worlds are equally important. Despite this equal importance, what do
you suppose is the result thus far of the 40-year-old push for “gender
equality”? It seems to be this: We are ending men’s dominance in the
world of work (The Economist at http://www.economist.com/node/15174489:
"women are gradually taking over the workplace") and, largely because
"women are the ones who give birth," preserving women’s dominance
in the world of children. (Men have no reproductive rights except the right not
to participate in sex. Imagine if women had no rights in the productive world
except the right not to participate.)"The Doctrinaire Institute
for Women's Policy Research: A Comprehensive Look at Gender Equality"
at Male Matters USA
Mountanman (sic) - Clearly, you did not take the time to even peruse the
"worthless 'study'". Had you bothered yourself for a moment
to do so, you would have found that women who stay at home do not affect the
study's determination in any way, shape, or form. Rather, this study
appears to have factored in a woman's access to health, education, and
professional opportunities should she pursue them. Your point about
stay-at-home moms has no merit. Further, simply because Wyoming and
Utah were at the forefront of women's suffrage (ironically, this would be
something folks from the Right would decry as extreme feminism activity were it
to exist today) does not therefore automatically preclude those states from
further scrutiny on the subject decades down the road. In fact, it's
rather sad to see that those two states had the right priorities at one point
but have since shed the mantle of equality - which seems to go hand-in-hand with
the radicalization of the Right in those areas. Coincidence? Nope.
Stalwart. I actually did read the article and nowhere in it does it mention any
accounting for women who choose not to work outside their homes! I am still
waiting for any real evidence that Utah and Wyoming have "shed the mantle of
equality". Opinions are not facts!
Some women choose to be stay at home moms "That has absolutely
nothing to do with the study. The study looks at working women. Still you
declare it worthless because of your non sequitur. Sheeez.I
can't wait to hear all the excuses about how women start and stop careers,
how they purposefully choose low paying careers, etc. etc. Do yourself a favor
and research the study methods that long ago accounted for these phenomena. Women simply are treated as second class citizens in the Utah culture,
all the while smiling as they march off into the sunset hand in hand with their
man who's responsibilities they are thrilled not to have...ugh.
Citing Utah being a leader in Women's suffrage is funny. This entire
generation has nearly passed away, and those alive are centennials. It's
great heritage for Utah, but it doesn't necessarily reflect our attitudes
today.The culture in Utah is very male dominated. We like to
pretend it isn't; but it very much is. For decades we have been trying to
perpetuate "Separate but Equal" but in some areas it has been to our
detriment. I understand differences in biology; but in a
functional/utilitarian role, they are very much as capable as a man in the
A close friend of mine was told more than once, by her boss who was also a
former legislator, that he couldn't pay her anymore than the least paid
male he employed. The position she took over paid a "man" literally
twice as much as she was earning doing the same job plus. When she inquired
again to the discrepancy she was told that men have families to support, women
work because they want to, or like money. This is a sad fact that many, I fear
believe round here, but would never be so arrogant or foolish to admit it.
Mountanman (sic) - Read the actual study, not the article. The study provides
you with ample information so you can review their methodology and analyze the
factors that accounted for their findings. You will see therein that your point
about stay-at-home moms is obsolete. The real evidence you claim to
be looking for (I personally doubt your sincerity) can be found in this study
and many more that have used various methodologies but reach the same
conclusion: there is a major gender gap in America's workplaces and that
disparity often widens if the local populace favors conservatism. I'm
sorry to break it to you but these studies are the facts that refute your posts
in this DesNews opinion forum which are, well, simply opinion.
If the main criteria for "Equality"... is the percentage women make up
of the work-force... then the answer is obvious. More Utah women think it is
more important to make sure their children are nurtured individually by their
mothers (instead of a group daycare provider) than to join the workforce.Just being part of the workforce does not mean "Equality" IMO.
Being paid the same amount of dollars... is not "Equality".To me... "Equality" is determined by how much you contribute to the
welfare of the family (not only what you contribute to the bank account). Contributing to the emotional and physical welfare of the family by
staying home and being there for the children (instead of leaving the home to
make money for the family)... is as important a contribution to the welfare of
the family as going out and getting more money. So they ARE "equal"
Ok, I will try again! A young woman enters the workforce at entry level wages,
just like men do! Later, as is the case in Utah, a large proportion of those
women make the choice to leave the work force and to be homemakers while the men
continue to work as their salaries increase. So we have a tenure bias in favor
of men! Also, there are numerous vocations (as the article points out) that
women simply do not enter nearly as frequently as men-so we have a vocation
choice bias). One other factor remains to be considered, LDS women are taught
that their greatest value and contribution is to be effective mothers and
homemakers and the men are taught to be bread winners! I will argue that society
is better off with that equal partnership. Not all value can or should be
measured with money! That is my point! Sorry if it is so difficult to
comprehend! I now leave the discussion!
@Those saying "women who stay at home do not affect the study"... Here are some quotes from the article..."The Institute
for Women's Policy Research, an organization cited in Pew's research,
also believes that women have made great strides in Utah’s workforce in
recent decades"...."Wallet Hub's Richie Bernardo wrote
in the study's introduction. "By highlighting the most and least
gender-egalitarian states, we hope to accomplish three goals: help women find
the best career opportunities"... "So what led to
Utah's low score? Executive pay and political representation stand out
principally as areas where Utah desperately needs to improve, at least according
to Wallet Hub"...."the gap in pay between male and female
executives in Utah is the worst in the country"...."According to Pew, local "job structure" has a large effect on
gender pay"..."If the state's economy is driven by an
industry that historically attracts fewer female workers"... "Mining, manufacturing and agriculture are all fields largely dominated by
men, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, and they make up a significant
portion of the Utah workforce"...(obviously being in the
workforce WAS a factor in the study)
I'm only surprised that Utah came in second to last.
MountanmanHayden, IDUtah, then Wyoming were the first states
to give women the right to vote. So much for this totally worthless
"study".7:18 a.m. Sept. 3, 2014========= Over 100 years ago!BTW -- Back then, Utah
was also the bastion of PROGRESSIVISM.Unorthodox marriages, Universal Healthcare, Socialist/Communist [United Order], Social
Programs, 1st Universities in the West, Pro-Immigration, Pro-Environmental, Anti-Materialism, and nearly 100%
If the measure is dollars and cents, equality will never happen. There are many
things of value - of higher value - than money.Yet, the beat goes
on. Those who see their purpose as awakening others to "inequality" seem
to find some great reward (or compensation) in beating the drum of fairness and
equality. I find it interesting that these are usually the same people who
demand diversity. Anyone else see the irony of asking for diversity and
"equality" in the same breath?
Mountanman (sic) - Yeah, I hate to break it to you but nearly all studies put
forth on this subject also control for the "women leave the workforce to
have babies" strawman. And, guess what? Same results. No, we
don't have vocation bias either because, again, nearly all recent studies
control for that too by comparing people of the same vocation, experience level,
responsibility load, etc... etc.... Truly, you should read the
methodology for these types of reports before commenting next time. In all
sincerity, every single point you (and others) bring up have been addressed and
demonstrated to be pure fabrication.
Red states pay women less than men. Blue states strive for equality. It's in the stats. And the GOP wonders why they continue to fail at
getting the women's vote?
‘Why does Utah rank so low for women's equality?’======== Gee, I don't know?How about we investigate
asking blacks, hispanics, Gays, and Lesbians that same question?
re SuperNova"The culture in Utah is very male dominated. We like
to pretend it isn't; but it very much is."I disagree and
think that its smoke & mirrors. If you look at the dominant sect in this
state; its women who call the shots in most families.re: Mountanman
@ 8:40a today"...LDS women are taught that their greatest value
and contribution is to be effective mothers and homemakers and the men are
taught to be bread winners!""Not all value can or should be
measured with money!"I disagree. If you ultimate goal is to be a
full time mom. Why go to college, etc..? Why not go work in a call center which
doesn't require special training.Look around at your typical
LDS family w/ the stay at home Mom. More often than not, they are the ones w/
palatial estates and loads of toys all in the name of trying to keep up w/ the
rest of the ward.
On the one hand you have people complaining all day long how companies are
always searching for the cheapest option when it comes to their work force.On the other hand, those same people often complain that women are paid
significantly less for doing the exact same work as a man.My
question to you is: Why on earth would one of those "heartless"
companies hire a man if they can get a woman to do the exact same thing for a
significant discount? We should have zero unemployment among women and a very
high unemployment among men if all these conditions were really what they are
painted to be.Obviously, something doesn't add up here. Are
women really being paid less than men, or are they on average adding less value
than do men on average (time, experience, etc.)?
@Open Minded Mormon,I agree with everything you posted @ 9:03
a.m.So... the question is... what changed? The Democrat Party?
Or almost every individual in Utah?If you think it's every
person in Utah... what changed them? Because obviously one or the other has
changed. Because Democrats aren't getting 100% of Utah's vote
anymore. That's a fact, not an opinion.If you have convinced
yourself that The DNC is the same as it was back then... and only the people of
Utah have changed... what changed them?Did somebody come down and
brainwash all of them???I think it's obvious that the Democrat
Party left them, and most Utahns actually CHOOSE not to vote Democrat anymore.
Do you have any EVIDENCE to the contrary?? I mean is anybody FORCING them to
vote Republican? Have they all been brainwashed by some evil entity? What is
it?? What changed them from the people they USED to be?
The War on Woman whether it is the workforce or in social equality is led by
people like Montanman and other conservatives. They create their own reality
and choose to ignore the facts. The GOP has continously fought against
legislation for equal pay because they are the party of upper income, religous,
white males. Those are facts and just another reason why they continue to lose
national elections. I too have seen and heard first hand what other
people have said here. Employers, especially here in Utah, use their religous
bias to support their reasoning on why woman should make less than man.
re: 2 bits"So... the question is... what changed? The Democrat
Party? Or almost every individual in Utah?"Easy. THe people of
Utah have been turned **AND** the Democratic party changed.
It's men who have been degraded. Ward Clever has been mocked, and men are
being portrayed as dumb, and dumber.
@JoeCapitalist2 – “Obviously, something doesn't add up
here.”We’ve disagreed on many issues but I think your
comment here is spot on. No doubt women have been oppressed for eons
and in some areas (and many parts of the world) they still are, but businesses
have one primary objective – to make money.If business A is an
oppressing old boys club and business B hires only the best employees for the
lowest cost the labor market will bear, business B will drive business A out of
business. Over time there will no longer be any business A’s.What disparity there is – and from everything I’ve ever read when
you control for specific jobs, industries, etc… is closer to 95% of male
pay vs. the 70-something % we often hear – must be due to some real
value/productivity factors all other things being equal.Any theories
for the 5% differential?
@GK Willington,So... were the majority of Utah's
"Right" back then? And now they are "Wrong"?I just
don't see how a whole group of people (who have basically the SAME beliefs
they had back then)... suddenly became "Wrong" about everything...===============IMO the Democrat Party left them...
Democrats abandoned some core principles many Utahns had back then... and they
still have today.It wasn't a mass brainwashing of Utahns that
turned them against the party... it was a sharp turn the Democrats took (back in
the 60's) that left many Utahs with a difficult decision to make. To vote
for the other party for the first time.. and they continue to make that same
decision today (with a few exceptions, like Jim Matheson).=============A group of people don't all change at the same
time (almost overnight)... obviously it was the party that changed...It's possible the party will change again someday... and get our votes
again. But I wouldn't expect most Utahns to just start agreeing with
Democrats on these key issues... Probably wont happen...==========IMO Mormons have more love and respect for women than
any group of people I know (including Democrats).
To "Open Minded Mormon" you are wrong. Utah never was a bastion of
Progressivism. That can be found in places like California and Michigan. Utah
was the bastion of LIBERTARIANISM. Utah believed in equality and liberty more
than the rest of the US did in the late 1800's and early 1900's. Had
they believed in Progressivism, we would be flying a red flag with a hammer and
sickle on it.I really wish you would learn the difference between
libertarian and modern liberalism. If you did that, you could also learn the
difference between classical liberalism and modern liberalism.
open mindedif you think the United Order is socialism, you need
better filters. It is a poor counterfeit designed to fool the gullible.
2 bitsCottonwood Heights, UT@Open Minded Mormon,I agree
with everything you posted @ 9:03 a.m.So... the question is... what
changed? The Democrat Party? Or almost every individual in Utah?If
you think it's every person in Utah... what changed them? Because obviously
one or the other has changed. Because Democrats aren't getting 100% of
Utah's vote anymore. That's a fact, not an opinion.If you
have convinced yourself that The DNC is the same as it was back then... and only
the people of Utah have changed... what changed them?====== The answer to that is easy -- read the Book of Mormon.It is
the same thing that happened to the once righteous Nephites -- Materialism.Greed, fine appreal, debt, McMansions, Cadillac SUVs, Breast Augmentations, Cosmetic
Surgery, Anti-Depressants, Ponzi Schemes, Get rich quick, AM radio,grinding the face of the poor, sick and the needy and
then thinking they brought their poverty upon themselves, loving WAR
mopre than Peace, pursing Babylon, Mammon.BTW -- About
the same things that destoyed the Nephites -- and it wasn't gay
marriage, marijuana, or Obamacare.
Yea, I agree. Women where I work get paid on average more than the men.
LDS Liberal, I know more women that are Democrats that have had breast surgery
than those who are Republicans. All the rest of the stuff you listed
doesn't have anything to do with political persuasion. It is rampant across
the board and knows no political ideology. And since gay marriage, marijuana,
or Obamacare aren't mentioned anywhere in the Book of Mormon, how do you
113th congress (2013-2015)SENATEOut of 100 senators 20 are women16 are democrats4 are republicanHOUSE OF REPRESENATIVESOut
of 435 Representatives 82 are women63 are democrats19 are republican
@FTThe "war on women" is led and advocated by those who
believe they benefit by creating the "war." There are cultural
distinctions between various jurisdictions which may explain the disparities,
but I don't believe that the results of this particular study place
"value" on anything other than money, as compensation.You
are mistaken to belief that the "war" is being waged by conservatives.
I don't see or hear many conservatives advocating that women should be paid
less money for doing the same job. Neither do you hear the ad-vocation of lack
of gratitude for the hard work of women - in the work place (at the office, or
in the home) from conservatives. Rather, it is the victimization of classes of
people that create these "diversities" of treatment. This is done to
demonize those whose standards stand apart from the "progressive"
Conservatives left the democrat party or felt like the democrat party left them
when the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed by a democrat President.Gee, I wonder why? And seeing how conservatives are reacting to today's
minorities and their discrimination, it's not hard to see why.
@RedShirt1701"Utah was the bastion of LIBERTARIANISM"?That is new. How many Utahns voted for Gary Johnson in 2012? Bob Barr in
2008? How many Utahns support gay marriage?and how many true
Libertarians oppose gay marriage?How many Utahns support drug
decriminalization?and how many true Libertarians not support drug
decriminalization?Saying Utah was the bastion of LIBERTARIANISM is
Pretend for a minute there was a woman who didn't have kids. Pretend
for a minute there was a woman who had kids but their husband died.Utah is
2nd to last in equality for these women in the workplace.It is shameful
that so many men come on here and defend this.Equal pay for equal work.
I have been wont to say in the past that Utah has a lot in common with so-called
"Islamic Republics." I have had the misfortune to get very familiar
with Islam, and I now know how right I have been. The LDS faith is very
conservative in its assignment of gender roles - much like Islam. Also in the
LDS faith men are to rule (preside), women are to follow - just like Islam. In
both women are to OBEY their husbands and men in general. In both men are to
work outside of the home and women are to stay in the home (of course is Islam
it is really severe in that a woman cannot leave without her husbands
permission).When it gets right down to it, in Utah women are not
supposed to work outside of the home and our pay differential reflects that
point of view. Moreover, Utah (LDS) women do not try to even things out because
they feel shamed when they work in various professions.I have
nothing against full time motherhood provided it is the woman's CHOICE and
Sorry, I did not see anything in the article or comments that indicated that the
income discrepancy for women in Utah might be due to a doctrine of the lds
church that might need revisiting, or a mistaken practice among lds people that
might bear scrutiny.Everything that is good can further improve,
folks!Anecdotal evidence about Utah suggests "mormon males run
everything" -- is that true? is it how it should be? Does God really want it
that way or are the men being a bit blind?A bit of questioning of
the status quo might be in order.
To "USU-Logan" go back and read what I said. I said that Utah WAS, as
in past tense, as in not so much any more.I know that you are a
college student, but I hope that you can take some time to look at history and
see just how much the pioneers were like modern moderate libertarians.
To Tyler, and Joe Capitalist; The workplace like most of the world is much more
complicated than simply if A is true and A equals B then B is true. Most corporations control entry level wages very well and they are usually set
to pay as little as possible so you do in fact find a female bias in places like
call centers. A lot of other factors such as labor supply effect this also but
in general....When you start to see the biases take effect is when
the job is pretty much out of the public view (higher up the ladder). Then
rarely does cost of the position play a role. These jobs have ranges and value
added is the governing principle and that is pretty much subjective. So reality is you go from let's pay as little as possible to what value
will this person add.
@marxistYou have an absolutely grotesque mis-understanding of the
LDS faith and gender roles.
@pragmatistferlife – “The workplace like most of the world is much
more complicated than simply if A is true and A equals B then B is
true.”That’s a fair point and I admit to a (college
leftover) bias in believing markets tend towards competitive equilibrium –
something I’ve come to question a great deal lately.Behavior
Economics is beginning to shed light on some of these classical economic biases
and the real effects they have on markets, but that work seems to be in its
infancy and has a long way to go to show that the basic tendency towards
competitive equilibrium does not still hold in most cases.Culture
does appear to play a strong role though and perhaps is a driver of the
disparity we see in Utah. That said, I still believe the wage gap (when
distorting factors are controlled for) is smaller than what the mainstream media
@MikhailALPINE, UTYou are mistaken to belief that the
"war" is being waged by conservatives. 5:13 p.m. Sept. 3,
2014“Feminism was established so as to allow unattractive
women access to the mainstream of society.”"I will buy all
of the women at Georgetown University as much aspirin to put between their knees
as they want. … So Miss Fluke and the rest of you feminazis, here’s
the deal. If we are going to pay for your contraceptives and thus pay for you to
have sex, we want something. We want you to post the videos online so we can all
watch.”“I’m a huge supporter of women. What
I’m not is a supporter of liberalism. Feminism is what I oppose. I love
the women’s movement — especially when walking behind it.”~ Rush Limbaugh -- Mouth piece of Right-Wing Radio, and Head
of Limbaugh Institute of Conservative Studies.]========== USU-LoganLogan, UT@RedShirt1701"Utah was the bastion of
LIBERTARIANISM"?That is new. ...Saying Utah was the
bastion of LIBERTARIANISM is laughable.8:22 p.m. Sept. 3, 2014Great post!
To "LDS Liberal" says the guy who doesn't even know what his own
religion says about liberalism, socialism, and communism.You
don't understand what the church you claim membership in has stated as
doctrine, and now you want me to believe what you have to say about the Pioneers
and early Utah history.I might as well ask a blind man to describe
what the Grand Canyon looks like.
I do have to wonder if all the women with graduate degrees have worked the same
# of years as their male counterparts or if there are employment gaps because of
child rearing. I am also concerned by the presumption that women can only be
represented by other females in elected office (the same goes for racial
representation) Are there no common interests that all Americans share that can
be met by one official?
to 2 bits"So... were the majority of Utah's "Right"
back then? And now they are "Wrong"?"I said nothing
about being incorrect or correct then or now. Due to the democratic
party choosing poorly & subtle neurolinguistic programming that the tide has
tuned in terms of belief systems.
per Redshirt1701"...Utah was the bastion of LIBERTARIANISM. Utah
believed in equality and liberty more than the rest of the US did in the late
1800's and early 1900's.... I really wish you would learn the
difference between libertarian and modern liberalism." I wish
you knew what Libertarianism is/was. It entails a high degree of personal &
economic freedom. I don't recall Utah EVER being having a live and let live
mindset. The most Libertarian city in the US in Vegas.Speaking of
other states, Massachusetts started out being full of repressed puritans and
look at them now. I guess this means there is hope for Utah???
If women are being paid less for the same work and the same type and quality of
work, that is wrong.If women are paid less, because they choose to
not dedicate their lives to their jobs as much as men, then this isn't
wrong. This is a lifestyle choice.I suspect there is discrimination
however, quite likely inadvertent. The fact that more women do make lifestyle
choices to emphasize family instead of putting long hours to the job probably
hurts those women who are willing to dedicate their life to the job. For example
if two people are applying for a management position one a man and one a woman,
it is automatically assumed the woman wouldn't put the same level of
dedication into the job as the man, and most of the time this assumption is
correct.If we want to fix this problem, a reliable method needs made
use of to determine the life goals of applicants to various jobs.