@ Objectified"And when looking at the overall sports picture,
it;s actually very little. A small string of football wins and a few baseball
games is about it."Women's soccer and volleyball are the
only two sports BYU beat Utah outright in last year.Mens/womens
basketball, mens/womens swim & dive, Mens/womens tennis, gymnastics,
softball, and football all went to the U.@ Riverton CougarFresno, Yes. Can't get enough games in California.
81Ute:"My heart goes out to college football fans that cheer for
byu."I appreciate your concern for us. My heart goes out to ute
fans too, who don't go to bowl games, watch their team lose to more elite
programs, and can only get excited about who the next beating is going to come
As a BYU fan I like to see BYU beat Utah, but I recognize Utah has and is good
perhaps better than BYU so what. BYU's schedule is not all easy this year.
Texas, Houston, Central Florida, Nevada, Boise State, not easy wins. BYU has a
narrower recruiting base, but they have done pretty well with it. They have a
big TV audience. Maybe they should discontinue football?
@54-10Unfortunately you are correct. The object is not quality but
quantity. Bronco has stated that successful seasons are those with 10+ wins,
which is hard to argue against. The issue is that there are 6-8 automatic wins
per season. Last year had a very solid schedule and the season was not
successful, no 10 wins. Lesson learned, back to the 6-8 automatic wins.There are those that whine about MWC, valid issues, but at least there
is a championship that can be one against those 6-8 automatic wins.My heart goes out to college football fans that cheer for byu.
The schedule reflects the desires of the fan base.Play the easiest
schedule you can and get to a meaningless bowl game.Holmoe and Pony
are just giving the fans what they want.
"As a fan I'd rather play Michigan. I believe that is the consensus
among the fan base as well. Playing BYU doesn't do anything to help elevate
Utah's program."I agree that Michigan is a great team to
have on your schedule and I understand why you would rather have Michigan than
BYU on your schedule. However, Utah HAD both but dropped BYU because having both
would have been hard. As per Chris Hill's words, having both would have
resulted in too many really, really good opponents (he also says he likes the
OOC formula to be 1 top-tier, 1 mid-tier, and 1 low-tier opponent; if BYU were
mid-tier there would have not been any over-scheduling issues).Do
you honestly think that playing Fresno State or Idaho State elevates your
program more than playing BYU?It is true that there are some other
OOC teams who would elevate your program more than BYU would. However, can you
get 3 or more of those teams on your schedule? Michigan has proved to be the
only exception, and even then in hindsight it was in anticipation of a PAC-B1G
@ Two For Flinching:You claim that Utah has nothing to gain from
playing BYU. The fact that you and so many other Utah fans spend so much time
reading and commenting on BYU articles gives you away. There is almost nothing a
Ute fan is more proud of than being able to claim they beat BYU in anything at
all. And when looking at the overall sports picture, it;s actually very little.
A small string of football wins and a few baseball games is about it.
There's also that once-in-a-decade basketball win last year. The only time I, or almost anyone else, has ever seen fans of any sport
hysterically rush onto a field not once, not twice, but actually three times the
last time BYU played in SLC also belies your assertion. That win was truly a
very big deal to most Ute fans. It seemed to have made their year. In fact, it
turned out to be the highlight of that Ute football season. Add in
the fact that BYU spends considerably more time being nationally ranked than
Utah and the real answer becomes totally obvious.
@ My Perspective:Your perspective, as related in your comments, is
never the "end of story". In fact, claiming so removes a great deal of
credibility from your assertions... which by the way, are mostly
unsubstantiated. And as such, your comments fall back into being considered
rhetorically based. Such a bias makes it difficult to take you seriously in any
sports based dialog. What is your basis for claiming BYU was more
concerned with sports than research for decades? Undoubtedly you have none,
similar to most of your assertions. You have plenty of biased-based opinion and
basically no factual backing. I did look things up as your suggested and out
found out the evidence doesn't back your claims.BYU is ranked
higher than Utah in multiple academic disciplines. Their Business school,
especially their Accounting department, is one of the best in the nation. Their
Law school is also nationally acclaimed, and certainly the best in the
intermountain area. It's also very telling that both the ACT
and SAT student entrant scores at BYU are substantially higher than both Utah
and USU.Bottom line: There is no "end of story", except to yours.
MyPerspective:"For decades byu was far more concerned with sports and
failed to build any kind of research infrastructure. Too bad."This is flatly false and at best disingenuous. BYU's owner was not
concerned with sports over academics, they simply had different academic goals
than other land grant and public universities. BYU's focus was on training
students to enter professional careers and thereby be self-sufficient
(that's why they have a law school and business school that are both highly
regarded). They have accomplished that goal at an extremely high level
considering the kind of students they send to grad schools. BYU does do research
but it isn't their primary objective, and trying to insinuate that sports
has been is ignorant.That said, I agree that BYU doesn't meet
the research criteria established by PAC12 schools and that was certainly a
part, or even the biggest part of their not being invited to the conference.
RE: Jumbojimbo"According to the latest rankings of universities
BYU ranks higher than Utah. So it's definitely not academics. Good
try."Look, I'm a big time BYU fan but you're simply
wrong on this one. "Academics" in the sports talk is all about money,
and the schools that get the most money--from grants and other outside
sources--are those that have robust graduate programs. Utah currently has (and
will most likely always have) more and better graduate programs than BYU and
they make a whole lot more money off their research. They do indeed fit the
PAC12 profile while BYU does not. That isn't to say BYU isn't
academically stronger in all (or most) other metrics. It's certainly
harder to get in, stay in, etc. They have some of the best programs in the
country and are well respected internationally. But that is not what we're
talking about here.
@ JumbojimboIt depends on which academic ranking you look at. Utah
blows BYU away in rankings that heavily factor graduate school and research
(such as ARWU). Grad school, medical school, cancer research, etc. are what
matter to the PAC-12 when it comes to being academically eligible. BYU is a
fine school, but it doesn't emphasize these things; hence, no invite.As far as Sunday play, it's not a form of bigotry or hatred.
It's simply a requirement of conference membership. Being in the PAC-12 is
not an equal opportunity organization. You have to meet their standards and
agree to their rules if you want to be a part of the club. If BYU chooses to
not play on Sunday, that's fine. But that choice also disqualifies BYU
from being a potential member since they can't/won't meet all of the
qualifications. It's like somebody posting a position for a job that
requires one to work on Sunday. If you apply and say that you are unwilling to
work on Sunday due to religious reasons it's not bigotry if that company
hires another qualified applicant who is wiling to work Sunday's.
JumbojimboCheyenne, WY"According to the latest rankings of
universities BYU ranks higher than Utah. So it's definitely not
academics."Actually, it is academics, Jumbo. USNWR is hardly
the last word on the very narrow criteria they use but if you want to go down
that path, fine. Take a look at how high USNWR ranks byu's grad programs.
byu sports a pathetically thin portfolio of advanced degrees and what they have
is not highly regarded. From an academic standpoint, USU is a better fit in the
Pac-12 than byu. Look it up.It's also research...or lack there
of on byu's part. For decades byu was far more concerned with sports and
failed to build any kind of research infrastructure. Too bad."...we will still played by teams who are in your precious PAC 12. I think
Utah and BYU fans need to realize it has nothing to do with quality of play, it
has to deal with religion. End of story."Bottom line...it has
nothing, absolutely nothing to do with religion. The bar is too high for byu.
End of story.
Two For FlinchingSee you figured it out. We wont play on Sunday. That has
to deal with our religion. So we won't be admitted to the PAC 12. According
to the latest rankings of universities BYU ranks higher than Utah. So it's
definitely not academics. Good try. Any other excuses. We are a decent team who
won't be accepted by other, but we will still played by teams who are in
your precious PAC 12. I think Utah and BYU fans need to realize it has nothing
to do with quality of play, it has to deal with religion. End of story.
@ CougsndawgsI think the Big-12 would have been smart to take BYU
over TCU. The Big-12 definitely already owns the DFW market, and BYU would have
opened a new market. Who knows why is didn't/hasn't happened yet, but
I don't believe that religious affiliation was the main issue. I've
heard TV rights were a sticking point, but again, who really knows?As for the PAC-12, I don't think BYU's religious affiliation is
really an issue. Most PAC-12 institutions have (or had) active LDS presidents.
If bigotry was really the issue that wouldn't be the case. I do think
research status was a huge issue, and Sunday play may have been as well because
it is a huge inconvenience to rework every conf. tournament and olympic sport
schedule just for one school.
@ Riverton CougarAs a fan I'd rather play Michigan. I believe
that is the consensus among the fan base as well. Playing BYU doesn't do
anything to help elevate Utah's program.
@ JumbojimboIt means BYU doesn't meet the academic standard.
Two For FlinchingPAC 10 officials before Utah and Colrado entered said
they want a school who fit well "culturally" and now Larry Scott says
" it makes a lot of sense" for PAC 12 teams to play BYU. He also said
"they're a school that’s got a great reputation, a great history
of success,” “I’d consider it a high-quality matchup when our
teams play against them.” So we are a good enough team to play, we just
don't fit culturally, so we will never enter the PAC 12. I think you can
figure out what that means.
Nice try GoRed. Everyone knows Chris B. has multiple alias he uses on these
boards, he has admitted as much. As for trying to assert that I "obviously
don't understand college football" because I made a single claim that
neither he nor you can refute is just silly. I said nothing about BYU vs.
Utah's schedule, obviously Utah's is much more difficult as it is the
2nd most difficult schedule they've ever faced and this is the worst
schedule BYU has faced in a long time. What I questioned was Chris
B.'s assertion that "100% of big boys play 9-10 games against other big
boys", which is a flat out lie. I would love to see any evidence that ANY
team (P5 or otherwise) in college football plays 9-10 games in a single season
against "big boys" (although it wouldn't surprise me if Notre Dame
did this occasionally). Simply being a P5 school does not make you a big boy.
As a graduate of a B1G school with a horrible football program I'll be the
first to admit that. Unfortunately anti-BYU posters can't seem to get that
very simple concept.
2fer:"TCU, Baylor, ND, and Boston College are all religious schools,
yet they are all considered P5 teams. Stop playing the victim and accept
reality. BYU is not the golden prize..."C'mon 2fer
you're normally better than this. TCU and Baylor are in the Big 12
footprint and don't have any issue with Sunday play (though smaller
fanbases than BYU). BYU fans have never made the assertion that they
weren't included by the Big 12 for religious reasons. Boston College, same
thing...they'll play on Sundays and are a research based rather than
training based institution. The only assertion BYU fans have made is that the
PAC12 has religious bias, and based on their membership that may actually be
true. I personally think it has more to do with Sunday play and research status,
but to think political or religious bias aren't factors is naive."Why would Utah want to play BYU?"I could ask the same
question for BYU. U don't add to the SOS. U aren't a big time program
that elevates their status, and they're scheduling other PAC schools just
fine. Why should BYU play U?
"Why would Utah want to play BYU? Where is the benefit for Utah's
program?"Because their fans love it. Besides, implying that Utah
is too god for BYU goes against what Chris Hill has said. He is all for
continuing the rivalry.
with a schedule as soft as this one, BYU should be ashamed of themselves for
ever going independent. Maybe two games worth watching the others? Sports
highlights or just look at the game stats. This is a team hooked up with a lousy
It's very simple - BYU is a mid major and a very good one at. Utah is mid
major playing in a P-5 conference. That's why Utah is the Kansas of the
Wiscougarfan (AKA duckhunter, sammyg, and all of your own other aliases)Actually, Chris B Halliday. was right. The University of Utah plays 5
ranked teams this year as opposed to BYU's zero ranked teams. The ranked
teams are Oregon, Stanford, UCLA, USC, and Arizona State. In addition to these,
the U plays a very tough Oregon State team whose quarterback is better than any
quarterback BYU will face. Same thing with Washington State and Conner
Halliday. Arizona is better than any team BYU will face. And playing Michigan
in the Big House would be hard for any D1 team, especially BYU.You
take Chris B. to task for "obviously not understanding college
football," yet from your post, I believe one could conclude the same thing
@ Riverton CougarUtah is playing one of the toughest schedules in
the country. Answer this question honestly. Why would Utah want to play BYU?
Where is the benefit for Utah's program?
TCU, Baylor, ND, and Boston College are all religious schools, yet they are all
considered P5 teams. Stop playing the victim and accept reality. BYU is not
the golden prize that many BYU fans seem to think it is.
Isn't it great that being a member of a "power" conference is an
automatic "Im better than you because i play against other teams in my
conference" attitude. Florida State of the ACC will play 2 tough games this
year (Clemson and Florida). Alabama might play 3, and so on and so on... For
teams like Duke, Kansas, Kentucky, Virginia, etc, every game is tough because
they stink. But for the good programs, they really only have two/three tough
games in any given year.With the alignment of the P5 conferences it
is just an evolution of the BCS program. We want to keep the $ for ourselves
and we won't play other power conferences in any meaningful games. In the
end, the fans are deprived of a true championship in football. Too bad.
Why are you are reporting this as news when the schedule has been known for
If BYU is such a mid-major-quality program, why do you and the Ute fans,
players, and coaches put their whole heart and soul int making sure they beat
BYU? Would a mid-major-quality program be such a threat that the AD would not
schedule them because the schedule would be too hard with them on it?
While BYU was in the MWC we played 1-2 so called big boys a year. Utah I know
you remember that phase. Now with Independence we can play 5-6 a year which is
quite a leap, of course not as good as a Power Conference. BYU will not get in a
power conference, because we are a religious school. That is the only reason. It
has nothing to do with our schedule, our quality of play, or any other matter.
Just because you're in the PAC 12 doesn't qualify you as a big boy.
You need to win more than 4 conference games a year. Utah will never be able to
compete in the PAC 12. You won't recruit against UCLA, USC, and Oregon. You
will win no more than 5 games this year, and that's if you're lucky.
Wittingham will be fired,and you will sink below Colorado in the PAC, but
it's ok cause you're with the big boys.
Chris B. (aka Ute SWEEP and all your other aliases)this article was
written just for you. Yep, it's true... BYU has a ridiculously easy
schedule this season. "100% of big boys play 9-10 games against
other big boys."I'd love to hear who all 9 of the Utes
opponents are considered "big boys." If you're counting Colorado,
Idaho State, and Washington State than you obviously don't understand
college football and who the real players are.
If byU ever wants to be taken seriously and wants people to think they are a big
boy, they should act like a big boy. 100% of big boys play 9-10
games against other big boys.byU is playing 3-5 at most a year
against the big boy conference.Just another reason no one takes byU
seriously and whY no one wants to invite them into their conference to give them
status like Notre Dame as essentially a big boy.All conferences
could easily designate byU as big boy quality and have that game count as the
mandatory out of conference game against the big boys - but all conferences
have come back with the same conclusion:byu is a mid major and plays
mid majors quality football and therefore will NOT be considered a big boy