Stang0, I would love for you to document your one win in a hundred years for
USU over BYU or Utah. If you actually want facts, the truth is:BYU vs USU
46-34-3Utah vs USU 78 29 4On the other hand your SUU birds
have never beaten USU…and perhaps it will take a hundred years for that to
Knowing it would never happen, I suggest that maybe the schools that are not
part of the "Fashionable 5" should band together, leave the NCAA,
establish their own association and right this ship. Wish the NCAA good luck
with their new found toy.
Kinda like the Utah 100 and USU 1 "rivalry" right tinplater?
Good luck regenerating the Colorado/Utah rivalry of 110 to 60 years ago! There
has to be some connection between the two schools beyond fighting for the bottom
of the Pac 12. Most Utah fans in my experience have no interest in U. Colorado
at all, and seem to be much more interested in Arizona State, if you were to
pick a rivalry. However a record of 6 loses to 19 wins doesn't generate
much of a feeling of rivalry either, does it?
Mark3054:Not so Mark. How can you say we won't be able to fill
up our stadium, but I can't say we will? The fact that we HAVE been --
whereas you all have NOT -- more closely supports my position that we will. And
furthermore, since CU WAS our top rival pre-1960, what evidence do you have to
support that they can't be that team in the future? As a Utah fan and
alumnus, I would be more disappointed to see Colorado off our schedule than our
WACistani little brother.
niners"If Utah is the only P5 team in the state, do you think
BYU or Utah State even have a chance at landing top in state recruits
anymore?"Not only is BYU still landing top in state recruits,
some of the top in state recruits that once chose Utah, are changing their minds
and transferring to BYU - see Harvey Langi.How many top in state
recruits will continue to choose Utah just so they can wear a PAC 12 logo on
their jersey when, come bowl week, they see the recruits that chose BYU playing
in a bowl, while Utah's recruits are sitting at home on the couch?
Too much overreaction.Reforms will take place.There will be more
inclusion than exclusion.USU will be fine in the MWC.byu will
continue to be byu. I suspect that they will stay independent and be just fine.
They will never be ND but their program won't decline either. However, as
an independent, pandering for opinions and fishing for compliments will
@niners, Of course the Utes will have an advantage with in state
recruiting, always has, always will. However you miss the point. The Utes will
be at a huge disadvantage recruiting against USC, UCLA, Standford, ASU, Oregon,
Washington. The local Utah kids that the Utes cherry pick are not enough to
compete against the kids recruited by the above schools from California,
Arizona, Washington, Oregon, not to mention the rest of the country. Your
"all star team" will finish last compared to the all star team from the
other schools in the PAC except for possibly Washington State, Colorado, Oregon
All of you saying the Utes would never compete with the other P5 teams once they
take over college football don't see the full spectrum of what is going on.
If Utah is the only P5 team in the state, do you think BYU or Utah State even
have a chance at landing top in state recruits anymore? It will be Utah as the
lone team in the state to take all the best recruits. It will essentially be a
Utah/BYU/USU all star team. Utah will be just fine in this scenario.
Previously an avid Utah Ute fan, I'm done with division I football and
basketball. Everything comes to an end.
Navel Vet:You are talking out of both sides of your mouth. You say that
the Utah/Colorado relationship will again become a rivalry as it was 60 years
ago (I've been around a long time and have never seen any resemblance of a
rivalry between those schools). Yet, in the same comment, you say that Utah
will continue to fill the stadium when, in reality, that has only been true the
last 10 to 12 years. Why is it that history will repeat itself with a Colorado
rivalry and not be true with the perpetual half-filled stadiums when Utah does
not have winning seasons? I am not an anti-Utah fan. I want to see them
succeed. But I am also a realist. There is zero empirical evidence that Utah
will ever be more than an occasional flash-in-the-pan in the PAC12 (ala AU, ASU,
WSU, OSU, CAL) and similarly, no historical basis that Utah fans will flock to
watch the Utes lose. But, if you believe that Utah and Colorado will resume
that once heated rivalry, it would seem logical that you would believe Utah fans
fill the stadium to watch them lose.
Mark3054:"I think the changing football climate favors the BYU
fan over the Utah fan...If the BYU/Utah rivalry goes away as it might, Utah will
not even have that game to look forward to (Colorado/Utah will never be the same
as BYU/Utah). BYU can always have the BYU/Utah State game. I envision an empty
RES and a packed LES after a few years."I think the changing
football climate favors the Utah fan over the cougar fan, and nothing of your
predictions will come to pass. For starters, the Utah-Colorado was at one point
in Utah Football history our top rivalry game. There is no reason why it could
be our top rivalry game pre-1960, but not at any point in our future. And as
for attendance...YOURS is the stadium that can no longer fill up. Not unless
Utah comes to town anyway. We're doing just fine in that department.
>>>Remember the fact that just over 20 major college athletic
programs operate in the black these days.Go look at Equity in
Athletics, where every college or university (except the service academies)
provides an annual report to the US Department of Education. None of the 128
Division I-FBS reported being in the red in any of the last four years. Most
report breaking even. Some report making money--but as all are either public or
not for profit, running a profit is interesting. Balancing revenues and expenses
is what they need to do.This claim comes from the fact that most
schools partially fund athletics--mostly for sports other than football or
basketball--using student fees. Student fees are collected for all kinds of
activities on campus, including music and drama departments, school newspapers,
student government, and many others. There is a mistaken belief that if a school
collects student fees for athletics, then athletics must be in red. Student
fees is just one of the many revenue sources for a college athletics department.
They plan their expenses bases on projected revenues from all sources.
If the power 5 can pay their players and go by their own rules, why can't
everyone else in college football, if they can afford it. The NCAA can't
set up two different rules just because of who has the money. Seems like it
would be struck down in court in a second.
Lets not kid ourselves. At this rate, there will be fewer colleges, even those
in the "Power 5" who will be able to sustain other sports programs
because the money generated will have to go to STIPENDs, health insurance and
such to support the football athlete. College Football will soon become like
professional sports where contracts will be generated and Athletes will just go
to the highest bidder thus condeming all the other sports. So much
for the true love of the sport. This is why I never attend or pay for a sporting
event. Too much greed which equates to rediculous prices.
There are some possibilities that could emerge in the next decade, and new
trends or brands will emerge:1- Should BYU drop football by later in the
decade to remain in the WCC for their other sports, look for UVU to quickly fill
that void.2- UVU will emerge as the 2nd most viable college sports brand
in the state, supplanting Utah State who will be the doormat and poorest program
in the MWC.3- By the mid to late 20s UVU will be challenging Boise State
for MWC supremacy year in and year out.4- Utah State will substantially
raise student fees yet again to bail out a perpetual $$$ losing athletic
department. All of the above could happen and we could know more by 2016
when the BYU/WCC deal is up for renewal. The MWC could bring BYU back with a
partial football schedule that includes 4-6 games to cover the latter 1/3rd of
the season when BYU & ESPN has had difficulty filling the schedule (November
games). Or the Big 12 could do the improbable & take BYU to stage a CCG
& resume divisional play.
unless P5 conference bottom dwellers like Utah were willing to schedule
one-and-dones or two-for-ones with the big boys, forcing Utah to play 6 or 7
road games every season.----------No need to do that.
BYU already has it covered.
@BlueHuskeyTherefore, USC, Stanford, Oregon will dominate the PAC12
in the future as they have done in the past.----As they have done in
the past? USC yes but Oregon and Stanford? Hardly. Not saying they aren't
great teams now but these programs have only been dominating for the past 5 or 6
years. Before that Stanford was the whipping boy of the conference and Oregon
was hot and cold.
If the Utes don't get the free win over BYU (coming years) and then
can't play Idaho state. We're looking at 1-11
As an alumnus of both the UofU and BYU, I have always cheered for both schools
except during the rivalry game where I gave the nod to BYU. That being said, I
think the changing football climate favors the BYU fan over the Utah fan. While
BYU may end up being excluded from playoff opportunities by the arrogant and
bigoted P5 conferences, Utah will also be excluded by the mere fact that they
will rarely -- if ever -- be competitive in the PAC12 conference. For the
average BYU and Utah fan, we will have to come to grips with BYU regularly
having 9 and 10 win seasons playing less-than-stellar competition and Utah
regularly have 3 and 4 win seasons against some outstanding competition. If the
BYU/Utah rivalry goes away as it might, Utah will not even have that game to
look forward to (Colorado/Utah will never be the same as BYU/Utah). BYU can
always have the BYU/Utah State game. I envision an empty RES and a packed LES
after a few years. Fans just don't support losers -- especially in Utah.
I wish both programs well; but, I think Utah has an incredibly difficult (if not
A playoff is a great system where the winner is chosen on the field not polls or
percieved superiority. Oklahoma was supposed to kill Boise St a few years back
or even BYU but it didn't happen. I don't care if the "power
5" think they are superior if the best of the non power 5 can go against
them and have their shot. UCF did a good job against Baylor last year. The four team playoff is a start, but I'm hoping it goes to 8 and at
least a couple of those slots should be reserved to the 5 "non power"
conference teams. If they don't allow access there needs to be lawsuits or
anti trust issues. The 5 "non power" conference teams also deserve to
have proportional representation on the selection committee for the playoff
teams.Why is the NCAA BB tourney so great? Teams like Butler have
their shot. Who can say they didnt "deserve" to be in the final,
despite not being from a "power 5" conference?
Whatever. Win and things go well. Lose and they don't. That is all that
matters for football. As for the WCC - Basketball is not conference
important. March Madness solves this problem. The season is fun, the games
good and I am not more excited to see BYU play Oregon State that I am to see
them play the University of San Diego.
BYU has already been left behind and it already impacts the product on the
field... BYU's schedule is littered with third tier opponents... and no
matter what BYU's record their bowl game options are third tier at best.
Rose BowlIn their desperation to see the demise of BYU football, the
crimson-glasses wearers obviously haven't considered how devastating an all
P5 vs P5 schedule would be for Utah.The Utes are already struggling
with a 9-game P5 schedule. Taking away their automatic win over a
Big Sky team, and adding three more P5 teams, would be the death knell to
winning seasons and bowl games for the Utes.
I get a kick out of the fans of the University of PAC 12 located in SLC. Once
they clamored for change and now they say we are in and we don't care.
Talk about hypocrisy. I travel throughout the PAC12 conference and in no other
school do I see the number of PAC12 signs as Utah has put up. BYU
will go forward because they have the financial resources to do so. They will
continue to go forward because they have committed to do so. Some of the
schools in the Power conferences will find themselves struggling and some may
opt to get out of the rat race. The Big10 is still looking at two
more schools and they openly have said they want to move to 14. That will force
the Big 12 to react and the PAC12 to expand. Then BYU will be in one of those
conferences (despite the religious bigots in California) and a lot of BYU fans
will start to act like Utah fans. I remember Chuck Noll, coach of the Steelers,
banning spiking the ball. Act like you expected to get there was his mantra.
Gotta laugh at our jealous little friends from the hill who are so desperate to
see the demise of BYU sports.They just can't accept the fact
that BYU, as a Independent, non-P5, still has a better chance of making the
playoffs than their perennially mediocre, conference bottom feeding program.B12 just doesn't understand that the P5s will NEVER go to an all P5
vs P5 schedule. Too many of the big boys like playing a 7-game home
schedule, which would be impossible with an all P5 schedule, unless P5
conference bottom dwellers like Utah were willing to schedule one-and-dones or
two-for-ones with the big boys, forcing Utah to play 6 or 7 road games every
season.Poor Utah would never finish above .500 or play in another
bowl game in that scenario.
Nothing will change. The playoffs will consist of 4 of these teams: Alabama,
LSU, Auburn, Ohio State, Michigan, MSU, Oklahoma, Texas, USC, Stanford, Oregon,
Florida, Florida State, Miami. Outliers will include occasional forays by Notre
Dame and 2nd tier teams in conferences. WSU, Utah, OSU, Cal, ASU, AZ, CO will
not reach the playoffs more than once a century, if ever.This
disparity will be augmented by wealth and endowment. Therefore, USC, Stanford,
Oregon will dominate the PAC12 in the future as they have done in the past.
Utah, ASU, UA, Colorado will never be there and Washington maybe once in 20
years.BYU will continue to do its thing, Playoffs? At for teams?
Never. At 8 teams, maybe once in 20 years.So lets enjoy football for
its own sake and enjoy our wins and mourn our losses and get on with our lives.
SoonerUteDoes the MPSF intend to keep up?Don't kid
yourself. This could affect thousands of non-revenue sport athletes from PAC 12
schools, including the Red Rocks, as well.
Is everyone forgetting that in the end Congress will get involved in this? We
are looking at years of debate and discussion. Don't everyone get their
knickers in a knot!
@ jina,Yes, and I would love to have a million dollars fall from the sky
into my backyard. I think my wish will happen before yours.
As the price to maintain these programs continues to rise perhaps some
universities will review what their mission is and try just educating students
rather than run a farm team for the NFL.
One element was left out of the article - who pays for all of this. Fans already
pay an enormous amount for tickets. The only way to fund more is to get more out
of corporate sponsors and the networks, especially ESPN. That means increasing
cable and satellite fees. Schools in big metro areas and in well funded
universities will move forward. The separation between the haves and the have
nots started decades ago and moved up a notch with the BCS schools. The FBS
arrangement further institutionalizes it in season scheduling and new ways of
business model funding. Short answer - BYU already hasn't kept
up - we failed to get into any kind of FBS consideration by not going to any BCS
bowl. The train left us a long time ago.
Yes, and we(the power conferences) simply don't care. We will
continue to take nearly all the money, nearly all the best athletes, all the
spots in the playoffs, and we couldn't care less if it hurts mid majors.
It's not our job to try and keep you in the national picture. We will soon be playing only each other and mid majors will never have a shot
at anything noteworthy. Byu and usu's games against the big
boys will soon decrease from 1-3 a year to zero. Yes, it will ruin
your programs dreams of big time bowl games and playoffs. But we
don't care. Ya, the truth hurts. That is, if you are a mid
Of course they will be! And I will laugh and remind those programs
the entire time. Wyoming, savannah state, usu, byu, and every other mid major
will essentially become the new division II. If they want to
schedule their own playoffs or something like that, fine. We don't care.
But they will be even more irrelevant in the future than they are
now. Bye bye mid majors. Your programs for all intents and purposes
are over. It's a bad bad time to be an irrelevant mid major
like usu and byu.
the Y had its chance but was left out in the cold. TCU and Utah were taken
instead to BCS conferences. BYU will have to settle for second tier status going
I think there is a danger that the "have-nots" may start sacrificing the
non-revenue sports to keep from falling behind in football and basketball. That
is something that everyone seems to lose site of.
Maybe it's me but I think we are ready to take a long break from
'autonomy' and Power 5 talk and just focus on the football season.
Dick Harmon: "MWC, American Athletic Conference, and BYU will do what is
appropriate.”Does the WCC intend to keep up?
poyman10CC obviously doesn't understand the simple economics of
opportunity costs, that even IF every Utah athlete could have lifetime
sports-related injury care performed at the U of U Medical Center, every second
spent by doctors and staff caring for Utah athletes would cost the university a
second of time that could be used to care for other patients. Every dollar saved
would be offset by a dollar lost.
We are in front now and not behind like we were because our pac brothers like us
@10cc Please explain to us why a University with a Medical School
would have an advantage? Do you think that their health care would cost them
less to provide? Are you suggesting that injured athletes could only get care
from the School's Medical Facilities?I submit that that it
won't make a dime's worth of difference. Athletes come from all over
the country and move all over the place... Continued medical coverage is going
to have to be available to them wherever they live or the school that restricts
that coverage will be at a distinct disadvantage.
I would love to have both BYU and USU in the BigXII. That would actually put us
up to twelve members. Both have quality football and basketball programs.
BYU will be left behind.
The most expensive piece of this will be lifetime health insurance for injuries
sustained while being a college athlete. This aspect will dwarf the cost of
stipends.As recruits learn of this benefit, part of recruiting may
involve the quality of healthcare available from the school. Universities with
medical schools and professors of medicine may have an advantage in attracting
athletes, over schools that have physicians who are in general practice.
Do we really have to rehash this again??? The answer is maybe yes, maybe no -
because at this juncture nobody knows.Let it go already.
Of course bYu will be left in the dust. But it's probably for the best.
bYu will continue to be on of the better teams of the leftovers. bYu fans demand
wins and they will continue to get them.
This is one market that is overdue for a correction.