Nothing quite comes up to the Middle East in demonstrating the destructive side
of religion. The establishment of the state of Israel was due in large part to
fulfill religious prophecy (the Jewish population of Europe should have been
compensated by giving them half of Germany instead). So we get a one-religion
Jewish state plunked down in the middle of generally degenerate Islam - an
explosion which keeps on giving. It could well be the spark of the next world
war. Religion does some good things for people, but this is an
example of how bad it can be.And yes, campuses are short-sighted in
attacking just Israel, but this is only a tiny part of a generally very sick
I guess they are opposite of Fox News and probably the truth is in the middle...
While the civilian casualties are sad to see, the fact is Hamas is a terrorist
group and I am left scratching my head why people at home support them?
It is shocking that many, college students/faculty included, don't bother
to delve into the entire history of the conflicts in this region. Perhaps, if
they did, there might be more sympathy for the Israelis. This is not to say
that the current Israeli government is blameless. I don't think the
current Israeli conservative/religious ruling parties truly reflect the
consensus in the country. However, unless you deny the right of Israelis to
live in a free country, one must generally give their support to Israel. We
don't understand what it is like to be surrounded by bitterly hostile
neighbors.What bothers me the most in this debate is the resultant
anti-Semitism that arises in Western minds. The Muslims hate Jews, that is a
given. However, there is a nasty undercurrent of religious intolerance which is
beginning to seep into the media. Jews in this country are no more responsible
for the actions of the Israeli government than Catholics are responsible for the
actions of the Italian government. Most American Jews support Israel ardently,
but do not approve of the current Israeli government and many of its actions.
I feel terrible for the families of the Palestinians who have died. But... they
don't police their own. Almost every ceasefire seems to have come from the
Palestinian side. The start of this came from the Palestinian side. Point #1 Palestinians apparently killed three Israeli (one american) young
men.Point #2 Israeli youth attacked and killed a Palestinian in return
illegally.Point #3 Israel has arrested some in the case. Point #4
Why hasn't Palestine done likewise? They just don't.... You never
hear of it. Then there are the tunnels which I heard in an interview with
NPR a spokesman from Hamas admit were used to transport weapons. Point #5,
they openly state they want the destruction of Israel....I'm
not saying Israel is not guilty of things too. I'm saying to not talk
about Palestinian aggression in the face of this disaster and to frame it as all
one sided Israeli aggression is wrong.
According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there are 1,267,700 people in the
US employed as University teachers or professors. I have no doubt that 1,000 of
these people signed this document... but statistically that number represents
such a low percentage that is almost a rounding error.Consider this.
675,000 people signed the "2012 state petitions for secession" from the
union between Nov 7th and 14th 2012 that was posted on the White House site. One
may derive from these numbers that over half a million people believe election
results justify the break up of this nation. Look at it this way
for context. 7/10 of 1 percent of professors signed this petition condemning
Israel for their actions. On the other hand, 2.2 percent of Americans thought
the Union should be dissolved because of the results of the last election.I am sorry.... but I am not too worried about the fact that less than a
percent of professors are upset with Israel. What is much more worrisome to me
is 2.2 percent of Americans want to shred the constitution of this nation -
because of election results.
@ MurrayguyBecause people are poor and desperate. Estimates indicate
that hundreds of thousands are homeless right now (400,000) due to Israel's
bombing. How do you think their suffering will effect them? If just 10 percent
become angry enough to join Hamas then Israel has just given Hamas 40,000 new
recruits. We can continue to repeat past mistakes and allow Israel
to blow Palestine out of the water. Or, we can see things from Palestine's
perspective and work for solutions. Contrary to Fox News belief,
Israel isn't an altruistic infallible institution. They make mistakes too.
Israel's overkill and reluctance to compromise and work with
Palestinians is creating more killers. The ever recruiting tool for Hamas is
Israel's overbearing responses to Hamas's attacks. Israel's
responses are like pulling out a bazooka to swat a fly.
Of all the concerns with the issues in the Middle East, and you are fretting
about a relatively small number of students on some college campuses?
When I was in college we protested against Apartheid in South Africa, and got
similar pushback from conservatives who felt "constructive engagement"
was the more appropriate response, considering the amount of investment US
companies held in South Africa. Ultimately, economic sanctions, inspired by
college students, led to the end of Apartheid.Things are not as
straightforward in Israel, but a Jewish colleague who is very much pro-Israel
confided in me that "the oppressed have become the oppressors", meaning
the horrific treatment of Jews in WWII has somehow resulted in
self-justification of very high-handed treatment of Palestinians, by Jews.The over-the-top response by Israel, ie "100 eyes for an eye",
pushes Palestinians to support Hamas. If it appeared Israel was likely to seek
genuine peace, and not keep expanding into non-Israeli land, more moderate
minded Palestinians would feel emboldened to press for moderation, and Hamas
would lose power.What we have today is endless, dysfunctional
homicide, likely to continue indefinitely, or at least until Israel kills all
One major reason college campuses cater to pro-radical-islamic dogmas is that
many of their exchange students are from those regions of the world that are
sympathetic with the terrorists and have NO tolerance of the existence of
Israel. They legitimately believe the worst lies about Jews. Then
the faculty is constantly on the intellectual pursuit of some middle ground,
when in reality the only middleground that could possibly exist is the
destruction of those stereotypes and dogmas that dictate that Jews are
inherently evil, need to be removed from the Middle east and don't have a
right to exist. When the Twin Towers came down there was cheering
and celebrating in the streets of many of these regions, and you can't
claim they were all Al-Qaeda. It is the incestuous inbred hatred of the West,
the weight and fear of individual human choice and rights.
Let's see...you are 21 years old and in college.You
have seen Americans getting killed in wars for most of you life.Your
future looks bleak, the economy has nothing to offer, because of wars and the
HUGE defeceit you've been left with, because of Grover Norquist and the
GOPs pledge of NO taxes, YOU are the one's you'd be sent to
fight wars -- not grumpy old men watching FoxNews, ...Nah --
War is not something you want to be part of...
As complicated as the situation sounds, it breaks down to a very simple issue:
There are some Palestinians and Muslims who believe that no one, except Muslims,
have a right to exist in the Middle East, and some go as far as to say the
World. As long as that is the case, there will never be peace.
Unfortunately, these radicals teach their children these lessons at a very young
age. I look at what ISIS is doing to Christians, and it is not just about Jews
to some groups, it is all "infidels".Some of the people who
believe in the World Wide Islamic Caliphate live in our Country, and there are
many in other Western Nations as well, and not just a few. Some Americans are
fighting alongside as part of ISIS.It is a sad cycle that will not
end anytime soon. Regardless of what Israel does, short of abandoning the Middle
East, nothing will satisfy Hamas, Hezbollah, and many other groups. If you
destroy one group, another will pop up. As long as militant Islam controls the
conversation, and the power, it will be ongoing until Christ returns.
Perhaps even just a decade ago, Israel had a firm grasp on the narrative. There
are many more avenues for a person to gain a perspective on the conflict. With
social media, there are too many holes in the dike to plug.If a
university campus is taking a one-sided view, perhaps that is a reaction to
having heard only one side for so long. As another view is forcing its way past
the traditional media filter, reasonable people are raising reasonable
The BIG question.If Israel decided it was not in their best interest to
continue living war day after day, forever.If it's residents
abandoned Israel and assimilated in a European country/ America, or somewhere
else.Would the Middle East become a peaceful place?Or?
The solution is simple. "Transfer" those students who are protesting to
a school in Israel. Let them experience first-hand the Hamas rockets raining
down on their school. Let them have the full experience. Let them learn
first-hand what terrorism really is. Let them run for their lives. Let them
experience what is felt by innocent people who are being targeted by
terrorists.Yes, innocent people have died and will die in Gaza;
people who are being used by the terrorists as media "fodder"; people
who are being forced to surround missile sites in Gaza. Why are those people
dying? The Israeli army warns them before targeting buildings. They are given
time to get out. I don't remember any other army in history that has given
people, military or civilian, time to exit targeted buildings.Those
who protest are being used. They know so little that they have aligned
themselves with terrorists.
After giving Palistine money to help build up their nation, they use the money
to pepper Israel with rockets unceasingly, and then jumping Israel's case
for fighting back seems irresponsible and biased at best. The glaring
obviousnessness of this, combined with its amazing regularity, really suggests
an alternative force behind it all.It is a sad fact of life that
sometimes fighting is the only way to stop or prevent worse fighting. If Israel
were to raze all of Palastine to the ground at this point, in the long term it
could very well result less total death and anguish. It sucks no matter what
you do, but -not- fighting back certainly hasn't worked for the several
decades that Israel has existed as a modern state.
I think it's because siding with Hamas is the "in thing" to do...
it's cool. And college professors like to look cool to their young
students... they like to be a little controversial, so they side with Hamas and
talk like everything's Israel's fault.It gets a good
discussion going, and gets people riled up. They like getting people riled up.
What good is a class with no discussion or emotion.===============I think there is also a slight anti-religion theme
with many college professors (their own bias of course, and it feeds into what
many college age kids are feeling and exploring at that stage in their life).They see this as a religious thing.... so they knee-jerk respond
anti-Israel and pro-Hamas. Because it's the a-theist thing to do.I don't see it as a religious thing primarily. I see it as a human
thing. I don't want to see a whole culture wiped off the map because of
intolerance.I don't think Israel wants to wipe all Palestinians
out. I think they could live with them IF they would quit attacking. Not
"Or, we can see things from Palestine's perspective and work for
solutions." - The Real MaverickHow do you work for solutions
when the Hamas advocates nothing short of the destruction / elimination of the
State of Israel and every Jew dead?Until Hamas gives up that
"solution," there will be no peace.
It is a complicated situation, and perhaps student demonstrations are
one-sided.But this opinion piece is one-sided in the other
directions."At the same time, it has to be noted that aggressors
in this latest conflict are the Palestinians . . . "Really?But Palestinian deaths (moslty civilians) are measured in the hundreds,
and Israeli deaths (mostly military) are measured in tens.And the
Palestinians are the aggressors?Hmmmmm . . . That wouldn't hold
true in a court of law.If two guys get in a fight. And the assailant
who lands the first few blows ends up on life support with multiple broken
bones, and the guy he attacked walks away . . . Who is the aggressor?It's the guy who went too far.And Israel went to far.When a nation kills civilians in the hundreds, then that nation has
gone too far.
Israel is engaged in the controlled genocide of a people. I do not like Hamas
nor condone their actions, they are reprehensible; however they were elected to
power in a fairly open and transparent election cycle. So, one must ask
themselves, why would Palestinians overwhelmingly support Hamas at the ballot
box? Either you believe right-wing propaganda and see the entire civilization
as one that wakes up every morning and plots to destroy Israel or you look at
the facts on the ground and realize that these people have been denied basic
human dignity by Israel for decades. And during those generations of
occupation and denial of basic human rights, the vast majority of them sit by
idly and peacefully hope for a resolution - but it never comes. Israel controls
their borders, controls their imports, refuses to allow them to export, and has
actually calculated the caloric intake necessary just to sustain life in the
region. Israel is currently the greatest purveyor of long-standing
genocide in the world and they are able to do so thanks to US financial backing.
By America's own self-imposed laws on human rights, we must cease aid to
Re: "Universities are supposed to be where students learn diverse points of
view."Yeah, but they haven't been such places for many,
many years. They've become, rather, a place for recruitment of leftist
radicals, where they're taught to mock the tried-and-true principles that
guide most real Americans, and violently exclude us from the discussion.That's the primary motivation for leftists to gravitate towards
educational institutions. Well, that and the posh lifestyle and tenured
unaccountability.Suggesting that, since only a small minority of
professors signed the pact against Israel, we shouldn't be overly concerned
about leftists in Higher Ed unduly minimizes the problem -- if a mere thousand
college professors signed a KKK pledge, leftists would certainly be manning the
barricades and demanding revolution.The problem is, though, much
bigger than a few lost-in-the-sixties hippie radicals attempting to rekindle
glory days, anachronistically preaching that support for anything Arab equates
to support for a leftist, Pan-Arab, Nasserite socialist paradise.It's that education has been cynically co-opted by the left. And, is
being used as its primary tool to destroy real diversity and quash actual
College is a place designed to make one think. Unfortunately, they often
don't teach one to think for oneself.
Hmmmmm . . . That wouldn't hold true in a court of law. If two guys get in
a fight. And the assailant who lands the first few blows ends up on life support
with multiple broken bones, and the guy he attacked walks away . . . Who is the
aggressor?Your analogy does not hold water. In this case it is not
a matter of two guys getting in a fight, In this case one party shoots with
intent to kill, the second party returns fire in self defense and the first
party dies. Holds up in court all the time. Liberal progressive
position, victim should lay down and die with his broken bones or he is the
aggressor. Defensive action is against the rules.
Out of the thousands of people Israel has killed on very few are actually Hamas!
Most of the people they have killed are children and women. Bombing schools,
hospitals, and churches. I am Palestinian and I am not Hamas, the biggest
mistake of everyone here is that they think that because you live in Palestine
you are Hamas. Get educated!
procuradorfiscal - You apparently consider yourself a "literate" person
and a "real" American, so specify exactly where I displayed an affinity
for Hamas or their actions. The reality is I view Hamas as a major
barrier to longstanding peace; however, I also acknowledge Israel's role in
purveying major unrest and bringing systematic death to innocent people. Hamas
exists as a result of Israel (read about Hamas' origins). Conservatives
seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy. We
warned you about it in Iraq and now there is ISIS, we warned you about it in
Palestine and now there is Hamas. These entities exist and are given power as a
result of the occupying force's acts of injustice and human rights abuses.
We've created the things we most feared.I absolutely mock your
"tried-and-true principles" because they apparently include a disdain
for the truth and lives of thousands of innocent Palestinians. Respect for all
and truth are the principles I esteem most but you seem more concerned with
trying out new adjectives to demonize people who disagree with you and implying
they are not "real" Americans than finding solutions.
Curious that young people want to side with an ideology that subjugates women,
limits individual's civil rights, promotes instability in every country it
is the majority, and leaves people in poverty and disaccord. Not to mention
that all of this is done in the name of Allah.How much are we paying
these professors? Maybe it's time for a sabbatical to Gaza City for all of
them. And we'll pay for it!
@SJB,Nobody said all Palestinians are Hamas. But the majority did elect
Hamas leaders to lead their Government. So the majority do support Hamas.RE: "Out of the thousands of people Israel has killed on very few
are actually Hamas"...That's because Hamas hides their
weapons, command centers, and military targets among the civilian population.
So there's no way you can attack them without killing civilians.That's a strategic decision Hamas has made, and a sacrifice they are
willing to make. Israel has decided they won't hold back
anymore. They will attack the tunnels and Hamas weapons and other targets,
even if they are located in the middle of the civilian population. Israel
really has no other choice (other than lay down and die, or wait for a Hamas
rocket or nuke to eventually find them).IMO The Palestinian people
are being used as PAWNS by Hamas. They place them around their King and other
valuable targets to absorb the blows and die to protect their military targets
and make them hard to hit without a lot of collateral damage (and outrage from
people who can't see what they are doing).
This madness of supporting terrorists and condemning the honorable nation of
Israel is a product of the Marxist philosophy being taught and embraced at many
U.S. colleges and universities. The socialist/marxist worldview will always
support tyranny and denounce liberty. Isaiah 5:20 says: "Woe unto those that
call evil good and good evil." I know this denunciation of the State of
Israel represents a small portion of our society, but it emboldens the radicals
amongst us to follow suit. This divide between good and evil will only increase
in intensity and extent. As Joshua said: "Choose you this day whom ye will
serve..." I can tell you it ends badly for the wicked and those who fight
very few are actually Hamas! Most of the people they have killed are children
and women. Bombing schools, hospitals, and churches. Interesting
given Hamas does not give out casualty numbers. Hamas has used schools,
hospitals and churches for storing weapons and firing rockets. Also Hamas
rockets have fallen short and have hit their own. Hamas also
included in its death toll, allegedly at the hands of the IDF, the large number
of civilians were killed by Hamas’ rockets and mortar shells that fell
short of their targets. Others were executed by Hamas for allegedly providing
Israel with intelligence information.
@KoraCedar Hills, UTAs complicated as the situation sounds, it
breaks down to a very simple issue: There are some Palestinians and Muslims who
believe that no one, except Muslims, have a right to exist in the Middle East,
and some go as far as to say the World. [Yep, just like Christians
who insist "every knee shall bow, and tongue confess..."?]@Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahThe solution is simple.
"Transfer" those students who are protesting to a school in Israel. Let
them experience first-hand the Hamas rockets raining down on their school. Let
them have the full experience.[Pretty BIG words from someone who
NEVER served or experienced Military action himself.]
Israel's insistence on putting Jewish settlements in Palestinian areas has
fostered this bad blood. Israel holds a part of the blame for the continued
conflict. However, they have to react when they are being bombed. They
can't let that continue. I just wish they had acted more reasonably
earlier on to calm instead of inflame the passions against them. And SigmaBlue,
it's really uninformed to say that Israel is 100% good and the Palestinians
are 100% bad. Were you aware, for instance, that it is illegal for Israelis to
attend church at the BYU's Jeruselem facility? They are a democracy and
they are our friends and allies in the region, but our values and interests do
not line up with theirs 100% and we should not pretend that they do.
@Stalwart Sentinel. Interesting that your position is couched as conservatism
vs. liberalism, as if this whole Middle East mess is defined along political
lines. You appear to be a fairly reasonable and articulate person. You make some
good points in an effort to be "balanced", but I believe still miss the
underlying cause-d'être. All these various platitudes aside, if the
Palestinians (in particular groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.) would simply
acknowledge Israel's right to exist, and focus on improving the lives of
their own people, do you honestly think that Israel would be "purveying
major unrest and bringing systematic death to innocent people"? The so
called leaders of Islam are the true purveyors of major unrest and systematic
death to innocent Muslims and Jews alike.
that it is illegal for Israelis to attend church at the BYU's No it is
not. It is illegal for Christians to proselyte, same as Turkey, Lebanon,
Jordan, Iraq, Iran, China, and many other countries.
@Stalward Sentinel:If Israel were involved in genocide, why did it
concede Gaza and the West Bank? Why does it alert the Palestinians ahead of
time where their missiles will land?If Hamas gained power through
open and transparent elections, why haven't the people put Hamas out of
office now that Hamas is using the Palestinian population as human shields?Frankly, Hamas sure acts the part of a terrorist organization, and
Israel acts the part of a beleaguered democracy.
Uh oh I agree with Gary O's previous comment. Someone get me some Tylenol.
The establishment of Israel in the middle east is a total disaster.
They are the little brother who antagonizes someone and then hides behind big
brother (America) when they are about to get punched. Every country in the
middle east hates their guts for that.
@jsf -- Yes, it is illegal for Israelis to attend church at BYU Jeruselem unless
the law changed within the past couple of years. I base this on my Israeli
friends' experience when they attempted to attend church and were told that
they weren't allowed to attend as it violated Israeli law. I don't
know where you are getting your information, but I'm getting it from the
horse's mouth so to speak.
Being sympathetic to the Palestinian citizens or vocally against some Israeli
policies (blockade, settlements) does not require support for Hamas nor does it
mean opposition to the existence of the state of Israel nor does it mean being
unsympathetic to Israeli citizens.
I agree with IDSpud. This is not a Liberal vs Conservative issue. So lets try
to not let it slide into the normal rut our conversations tend to turn into.It's not Liberals=Hamas/Palestine and Conservatives=Israel.
It's not that simple (I hope).===================If
anybody actually thinks Israel is TARGETTING and intentionally looking for
Palestinian civilians, schools, hospitals, etc, when they do their targetted
bombings... could you let us know who you are? These are the people I'd
really like to talk to and figure out.Why would Israel be targeting
civilians??That does NOTHING to advance their expressed goals (to
destroy the tunnels and the weapons Hamas is using against THEIR civilian
population).IF Hamas would put their weapons out in the open...
I'm sure Israel would destroy them without all the collateral damage we are
seeing today.Israel is not after the civilians. They are after the
terrorists and their hiding places and their weapons. They just hide them in
schools and hospitals!Hamas on the other hand... IS targeting
civilians... and would like it if EVERY Jew were dead (not just their
military).That's the main difference.
Dear Wonder, I never said that Israel is 100% good and Palestinians were 100%
bad. You're putting words in my mouth that are totally inaccurate. Israel
is an honorable nation and have gone out of their way to inform the Palestinians
of an impending attack in response to the thousands of rockets raining down on
Israel. Hamas would never notify Israel's citizens of an imminent rocket
attack and thus the difference between the two. Isrel wants to live in peace
with their neighbors and Hamas wants to completely destroy their neighbor.
Please avoid jumping to conclusions before knowing the facts, because it makes
you look uninformed.
@2 bits"But the majority did elect Hamas leaders to lead their
Government. "Israel keeps Gaza under a brutal blockade and has a
heavy-handed hold on limiting what they can do. Half the purpose of all those
tunnels is to bring in resources in for citizens. Hamas, like it or not, became
the main provider of services and resources to the people, in addition to all
the stuff you know about (weapons, etc). So the people turned to the extremist
group, because they're desperate, and that's all they have. I suspect
most of the Gazans would support a viable alternative if they thought one
existed."They place them around their King and other valuable
targets"Gaza's a place with half the size of the Salt Lake
valley but a bit more people than the entire Salt Lake valley, there really
aren't many places you can put things. It's one thing to say Gaza is
attacking from near buildings, and another to say they deliberately keep people
in those locations. The former happens but I'm not aware of the existence
of the latter. No media have observed it.
@2bits"IF Hamas would put their weapons out in the open... I'm
sure Israel would destroy them without all the collateral damage we are seeing
today."Not much open space in a city with that many people in
that small a space but let's say there is... what kind of military in any
conflict ever would deliberately make it easier for the enemy to destroy them?
I'm all for blaming Hamas for the conflict (I blame both sides), but
it's a bit silly to blame Hamas for not taking actions to help Israel
every knee shall bow, and tongue confess... Don't believe this? It is a
tenant of the Mormon faith. Can this be explained by logic. Please explain
To "Howard Beal" take a look at the Hamas charter. It is filled with
statements about not only destroying Israel, but about genocide of the Jews. Do
you think it is good for college students to be so blind that they are
supporting a genocidal group?Go and read their charter. The problem
isn't with the Palestine people, but with Hamas.
Israel, ALSO, controls the electricity in Palestine.
It is interesting that most of these colleges and their liberal professors with
all their academic insite are also so terribly ignorant and wrong about so many
things in the world and this Israel / Hamas war is a classic example. Hamas
attacked Israel yet these young, uninformed kids on college campasses reply on
their radical leftist professors to inform them instead of doing the research
for themselves. If the kids did actually do real research on their own - which
would take about 30 minutes - they would find that Israel is the victim trying
to defend its homeland and the terrorist group Hamas is the aggressor firing
rockets into Israel and using their own people as human shields. These are the
facts yet if you interview some of these college kids you get a deer in the head
lights look when you mention this stuff. So much for acadamia. I think this is
also a classic example of how imposters like Barack Obama get elected - complete
ignorance and intellectual imaturity on the part of electorate....especially the
college age kids.
Re: "Most of the people they [Israelis] have killed are children and
women."While there's no proof that most victims are women
and children, it is true that most are identified by Hamas as civilians. But,
even assuming we believe Hamas' characterization of the victims [big
assumption], it was using every civilian killed as a human shield, which is a
grave breach [war crime] of, not only the Law of War, but of the rules of any
civilized society. Many were also being used by Hamas as human shields in
hospitals, schools, and UN facilities -- another grave breach.The
universally-recognized Law of War is clear -- responsibility for their deaths
rests with the war criminals [Hamas], not with Israel.Accepting the
Hamas theory, that they were somehow created by us or by Israel's
settlement policy is simply not borne out by history. The grandparents of these
terrorists were committing predatory war crimes against Jews before Israel even
existed. And, their more distant ancestors [Philistines] were doing the same as
far back as their foreign invasion of the Levantine coast during the reign of
Pharaoh Ramses III.
@Wonder,Check with your Israeli friends again. It may be against some
religious law to attend Church at the BYU Jerusalem Center. But it's not
against any Government law for them to attend meetings or concerts at the BYU
Center. They have music recitals and speakers in the large
auditorium, and they are well attended (and not only by BYU students). The BYU
Jerusalem Center houses only 170 students at a time. But it has a 250-seat
auditorium. So they probably welcome visitors.Google "BYU
Jerusalem Center" - Wikipedia. You may learn something.You may
be surprised to learn that during construction about 60% of the workers hired
were Arab and the other 40% being Jewish (providing a needed bridge between
Arabs and Jews). Similar cooperation continues today (which is a good
thing).Google it... read up on it... then you will know what
you're talking about. Nobody's prevented by any government law from
attending any meeting or cultural event at the BYU Jerusalem Center.
@2 bits -- My friends were allowed to enter the BYU Jeruselem Center. But they
WERE NOT allowed to attend church. Not because it was against their religious
law, but because it was against the civil law of the state of Israel for Israeli
citizens to attend a church service. Not a concert. A sacrament meeting. They
were surprised by it as well.
Not to beat a dead horse, 2 bits, but take a look at the "Non-Proselyting
Agreement" on the website you referred me to. I quote: "I will not
invite guests who are not LDS to attend Church services held in the Holy
Land." This is the promise made by everyone affiliated with the University.
I'm not making this up, believe me. Not a big deal with respect to the
topic, but I'm trying to point out that we in the U.S. do have some
different values and interests, and while Israel is our ally, we do have
divergent interests at times and don't need to blindly approve of
everything they do. Criticism from friends is acceptable and not anti-religious
as some seem to suggest.
I think this makes the case why we need to raise the voting age to 25 years.
Most of these young kids just aren't intellectually mature enough to grasp
or investigate complex issues.
"I think this makes the case why we need to raise the voting age to 25
years. Most of these young kids just aren't intellectually mature enough to
grasp or investigate complex issues."It is largely these same 25
year olds and younger that spearheaded and did most of the work in the civil
rights movement. Sometimes what is wrong is just really obvious.Here is where I think many people have a problem with what Israel is doing -
or at least how the tactics appear. I think it boils down to that we hold them
to a higher standard of expectations than we do other groups of people. Most
believe that if any society should be sensitive to innocents becoming collateral
damage in a war of ideologies, that it would be Israeli people.No
one expects Israel to not defend itself.... but we do expect them to take more
caution before going after HAMAS, particularly when it takes out a UN school and
kills kids in the process. This round of the conflict started when innocent
kids were killed.... killing more kids will not resolve it.
I really don't think anyone on a campus or otherwise can make a case
supporting Hamas. They are a backward bunch, to be sure. What I think these
college students and others are trying to say is that between the Israeli
military and the Hamas militants are over a million Palestinian civilians that
live in some of the worst conditions in the world and children die in the
crossfire. This is a horrible tragedy. Israel AND Hamas are
complicit in this tragedy and it is the fault of both groups. So who is
justified in murdering all of these innocent people? The answer is neither, and
both Israel and Hamas should be held responsible.
patriotCedar Hills, UTI think this makes the case why we need to
raise the voting age to 25 years. Most of these young kids just aren't
intellectually mature enough to grasp or investigate complex issues.1:07 p.m. Aug. 12, 2014======= It cuts both ways --
I think yours then makes the case why we need to halt the voting age
to 65 years. Most of the older folks just aren't intellectually capable
anymore to grasp or investigate complex issues.Still think you have
the right idea?...
re:Open Minded MormonYes I do have the right idea and here is why.
Age - 65 years - is NOT old. In fact many CEO's of major corporations are
65 to 70. Also those in advanced age - perhaps 80 years+ still have something
the college age kids don't have and that is common sense and maturity. They
may be slow and their computer skills may be lacking but they voted all the way
back to FDR and they understand the cheap artifical nonsense that many
poltitians throw out there and they understand that EVIL does exist in the world
having seen Adolt Hitler first hand. These college age kids - many of them -
have little understanding of basic world issues other than what they are fed by
their left wing radical professors which by the way is about 20% fact and 80%
false ideology. Young kids are VERY impressionable and until they mature they
tend to just go along without doing ANY investigation at all. Perhaps the main
problem with young kids is they tend to make decisions ALL based on EMOTION and
Personally I would like to see a little more even handed reporting on Issues
regarding Israel.It is posted as an Editorial. Do a group of people
write it together or does one individual write it who is a member of the
board?An interesting question. Do out of state posters seem to
support one side or another on this issue?Why is that?
Israeli doctors treat sick/wounded Palestinians. Palestinians wouldn’t
treat Israelis. Israel sends blood which is rejected by Hamas, even
if the blood comes from Israeli Arabs.Palestinians said they’d
build a hospital with concrete from Israel. They built terror tunnels
instead.Israel minimizes civilian casualties by phoning/texting the
residents of targeted buildings to get out and even drops noise bombs on
buildings to warn residents. Hamas rockets, launched from schools and
neighborhoods, ONLY targets innocent civilians.Israel puts innocent
civilians in its bombshelters. Hamas puts their weapons and fighters in theirs
and tells their civilians to stay in targeted buildings so there'd be
plenty of civilian casualties for newscameras.Israel offered the
Palestinians 96% of the land that they wanted for statehood but they said no.
If Hamas laid down its arms, there'd be peace. If Israel laid
down its arms, there'd be a bloodbath.Universities don't
care about right/wrong. Universities are so insular. Rightwing speakers, if
invited, need bodyguards and are often shouted down. Liberals get a free pass.
They reject diversity of thought sticking only to PCism. They are seminaries
for the religion of Leftism.
IDSpud – I appreciate the input but I ask that you expand on
Israel’s right to exist and how you see that as valid rather than treat it
as a foregone conclusion. True, they are currently a nation-state duly
recognized by nearly all international organizations but what occurred in the
1947-48 timeframe that justified instituting Israel in the Middle East and
dis-occupying the current inhabitants of that land? Why not create a Jewish
state in Western Europe? Until these issues are resolved and the displacement
of the longest-standing refugee camps in the world (Palestinians) have been
provided with sufficient human rights protections then there will be no lasting
peace. Hamas is deplorable but I submit that their power increasingly
dissipates as the Palestinian people are treated as full-fledged human beings by
occupying Israeli forces. Their educational opportunities are nearly
non-existent and free enterprise is stifled to the point of suffocation. Israel
cannot treat a civilization as sub-human and then expect the subjugated to issue
their captors respect and reverence. America's role needs to
be one of building coalitions to enforce the international rule of law against
gmlewis – Thank you for your input, please review the UN’s
definition of genocide and apply it to Israel’s treatment of the
Palestinian people; genocide can be calculated and need not occur all at once.
When Israel “alerts” Palestinians of incoming missiles that is
nothing more than propaganda fodder – Gaza is one of the most densely
populated regions on earth and their borders are sealed by Israel. When they
receive these “warnings” where do you suggest they go? It’s
literally like shooting fish in a barrel and then blaming the fish for not
growing wings to fly away. There is scant to no independent evidence
Hamas has used human shields – pure propaganda. Of course, you could
always prove me wrong by providing unassailable proof that the UN schools and
hospitals bombed by Israel contained weapons caches, etc.... Speaking of
warnings, Israel was given dozens upon dozens of warnings from these
institutions confirming they were operating as makeshift facilities to provide
aid to the thousands of displaced civilians.To reiterate, Hamas must
be held to account for their actions but so too must Israel.
Kevin J. KirkhamSalt Lake City, UTThat is called guerrilla
warfare. Psychological warfare...and it is is how smaller, less
armed, non-professional resistance groups beat larger, better supplied, better
trained, professional armies.It isn't necessarily about winning
"battles", as it is about winning the war of "public
opinion" or perception.Rocky lost the boxing fight, but
won the audience.It worked for the Vietnamese against Americans, the Taliban against the Soviet Union, Al Queda against the Amwericans,
and the Palestinians against the Israelis.Just about
everything you listed was something invented by Americans in 1776.The
British called them cheap shot, un-fair, cowardice, Yankees.You call them
heros.History is always written by the victor.
I believe that the Israeli nation is an aggressor nation using religion to make
their actions look legitimate. The notion that they are Gods chosen is all that
it would take to make men believe they have the right to oppress others. My
feelings are that religion can make good men do bad things if the religion tells
them to. I resent that there are people in this country that call
themselves Americans and yet have their major allegiance to a foreign nation.
The reason for world turmoil is economic oppression and in the
history of the world economic oppression has been under religious banners. And
rightly or wrongly the Jews have been out front when there is aggression and
oppression going on. I cheer the thinking reasoning part of
America for standing for humanity over money.
Re: "There is scant to no independent evidence Hamas has used human shields
– pure propaganda."While we're on the subject of pure
propaganda -- a carefully, disingenuously worded denial is the most recognizable
and pernicious form.One could make your assertion true only by a
cynical, misleading operational definition of the word "independent."
And, since both Hamas and the Israeli Defense Forces carefully control
information entering or leaving Gaza, if the description of
"independent" evidence is defined as coming from a source other than the
combatants, yeah, most of the evidence would be described as something other
than independent.But that is, of course, intentionally misleading.
There are literally mountains of evidence, from both combatant factions, of the
use of Gazans as Hamas human shields. And this mountain of evidence is strongly
corroborated by each and every one of the few existing pronouncements by truly
independent reporters, NGOs, and UN personnel.So, while a statement
regarding the paucity of "independent" evidence may be technically
correct, it is not, by any stretch of the imagination, true.Or
relevant. Or honorable.All available evidence confirms Hamas'
perfidy. And that of the deniers.
Stalwart Sentinel(W)hat occurred in the 1947-48 timeframe that justified
instituting Israel in the Middle East and dis-occupying the current inhabitants
of that land? KJKThe best explanations are found on YouTube. Search
for "the middle east problem" and "Do you pass the Israel test?"
Both provide a brief history of the beginning of Israel. The Jewish efforts and
success there brought in Arabs rather than kicking them out. SSWhen they receive these “warnings” where do you suggest they
go?KJKIsrael's weapons are precise and level only the targeted
building. Neighboring buildings remain unharmed. There are plenty of YouTube
videos showing this.SSOf course, you could always prove me
wrong by providing unassailable proof that the UN schools and hospitals bombed
by Israel contained weapons caches, etc...KJKUNRWA own website
admits that Hamas stored rockets in their schools. The title of their website
article - "UNRWA Condemns Placement of Rockets, for a Second Time, in One
of Its Schools". When they found the rockets, they gave them back to Hamas
rather than destroying them or turning them over to be destroyed.
The attitude prevalent on any given university campus isn't necessarily
'taught' deliberately. Maybe it's just a more free place of
exchange than the average student who can afford university grew up in. As to
whether or not one should side one way or the other on this conflict, I
don't know. I do see that we tend to suck up to Israel too much simply for
it's religious context, however.
@Stalwart Sentinel. Are you actually basing your argument on who was there
first, which in my mind would equate to the way children react towards each
other (I was here first!), and so they justify their actions accordingly?
Historical precedence aside (regarding who was where first)I still maintain that
if Hamas and other such groups would recognize Israel and lay down their
weapons, Israel would continue and even accelerate their aid and support for the
Palestinians, and the Palestinians would prosper. But I don't think Hamas
really wants that - do they? Hamas and umpteen other Arab nations, on the other
hand, would pounce on and destroy Israel in a heart beat -- should Israel lay
down their weapons. Could it really be that simple? I actually think yes. The
armchair quarterback in me would agree that Israel is being heavy handed and
could approach this conflict in a way to lessen the collateral damage. Given the
current Hamas approach to war, all collateral damage is unfortunately
I said it was worrisome that the conflict in the Middle East would become a
rally cry for anti-Semitism in this country. A comment recently made by
Ultrabob has proved me prescient.Where are those who would condemn
this veiled statement?
Patriot – “It is interesting that most of these
colleges and their liberal professors with all their academic insite are also so
terribly ignorant and wrong about so many things in the world and this
Israel”, “Wrong?” What makes you think they are
wrong? As you already noted, THEY are the ones with the academic background and
incite.Rush Limbaugh says something, and “Conservative”
online commenters say the same thing a day later. That’s not incite.That’s just following the leader of the herd. Many
“Conservatives” let demagogues do their thinking for them, and many
are proud that they have NO academic background at all . . . As if ignorance
were a badge of honor.Don't you find it problematic that Rush
Limbaugh ridicules Liberals for being elitist academics AND
"low-information folks" at the same time? Academia is the SOURCE of
information and ideas. Our brilliant Founders were PROUD to be academics.“I think this makes the case why we need to raise the voting age
to 25 years.”Really? Good sense and true
patriotism don’t necessarily increase with age . . . Obviously.
re:GaryOGary - if you took a survey of public universities you would
find that upwards of 75% lean heavily LEFT politically. What does that tell you
Gary? What it SHOULD tell you is that academia
@patriotCedar Hills, UTre:GaryOGary - if you took a
survey of public universities you would find that upwards of 75% lean heavily
LEFT politically. What does that tell you Gary? What it SHOULD tell you is that
academia12:19 p.m. Aug. 13, 2014====== It
tells me that college educated people lean-left, and ignorant non-college
people lean-right.So it comes as no surprise that Limbaugh, Hannity
and Beck do not have college educations either...
Academia leans left because if it does what it is supposed to be doing, it is
challenging the norm, the given, the what is assumed to be true in a quest to
find truth. Conservatism is all about preserving the status quo, and resists
change in most of its forms. You see that born out here on a daily basis.Neither is inherently wrong... but both in their extremes both are
negatives.What is worrisome is that academia by conservatives is now
branded as leftist and elitism - seemingly always in the negative. Both Brigham
Young and Joseph Smith would turn in their graves if they knew how mush in
disdain church members hold academia, when the two of them both valued it so
highly, and worked so hard to encourage educational pursuits within the churches
Liberal Ted and UtahBlueDevil wants us to think that one is ignorant or that it
is correctly taken that being highly educated (a degree) is to be left leaning.
The problem is this is a false and a major fib. One just has to look at who the
most educated people are and see that they are more moderate than conservative
or liberal. They will also see that most the most conservative is highly
educated and not in poverty. Whereas the most liberal is just the opposite.Educators as a whole are leftist in thinking and are socialist or
communistic in their thoughts and have no respect or tolerance for the other.
For one I am highly educated, not ignorant as Liberal Ted states but also not
naïve enough to think otherwise. No neither Joseph Smith or Brigham Young
would roll over in their graves as we look at the education process today
compared to what it was 50 or 60 years ago. Some say they are smarter and that
may be true but the only ignorant ones are those who fail to understand the
prophesies we see being fulfilled right before our eyes.