UtahBlueDevilThey are coming here because Obama is not deporting
people. Do you think it's fair that American citizens are put
in jail, yet people here illegally get away with id fraud everyday?
@slar... trivializing... no. Putting things in context, yes.So
exactly what are the numbers of people who are "steal id, uses
someone's social security number or commits perjury on I-9 forms". I
don't know. Do you? Neither do I know the number of people who cheat on
their taxes, take pay under the table and don't report it, take deductions
they shouldn't, falsify information on their resumes and job applications,
lie to employers why they are late or missed work... I don't have the
numbers of those people either.Even the best intentioned break laws
inadvertently. And a lot would break laws like listed above if the safety and
health of their families were at risk. What I do know is the number of perfect
people is rather low... and the number of eligible stone throwers is
significantly lower than the number of those tossing stones.
ProudDuck.. you were right... in the early days of the act it did not call out
Hispanics because they were not the issue. The then problem was Eastern
Europeans. Harry Truman put it best when he said, "Today, we are
"protecting" ourselves as we were in 1924, against being flooded by
immigrants from Eastern Europe. This is fantastic...We do not need to be
protected against immigrants from these countries–on the contrary we want
to stretch out a helping hand, to save those who have managed to flee into
Western Europe, to succor those who are brave enough to escape from barbarism,
to welcome and restore them against the day when their countries will, as we
hope, be free again....These are only a few examples of the absurdity, the
cruelty of carrying over into this year of 1952 the isolationist limitations of
our 1924 law."Truman had just vetoed McCarran–Walter Act,
which was later over-ridden. But I am sure you are aware of all this plus the
Naturalization Act of 1790 that bared all non-whites from becoming citizens. It
was absolutely all about race. It was then, and is now.
UtahBlueDevilIf a US citizen steal id, uses someone's social
security number or commits perjury on I-9 forms we go to jail. How is that like
speeding? Don't trivialize people coming here illegally to steal jobs and
citizenship. Over one million people come here legally each year, so
much for the "everyone does it" justification.
Blue Devil: Wrong on the history. The "National Origins Formula," and
the immigration laws that applied it, did not apply to immigration from Latin
America. Until the 1965 Immmigration and Nationality Act, there *was* no
restriction on immigration from Latin America.The "National
Origins Formula" mostly affected Poles and Italians, immigration of neither
of which group is at all relevant to the current immigration debate. Before inviting a history major to bone up on his history, bone up yourself.
@rbb.... so you have only broken the speed limit or driving laws once, and that
on singular event, you got caught. Impressive.I can guarantee you
most people have broken the speed limit far more than the single instance you
did. I applaud you for your faithfulness. I can assure you based on past
experience, that on my drives between Salt Lake and Lehi, you would be a true
exception to what is the norm on that road... or most the roads I drive, in and
outside of Utah.Lets put it this way. Most people, if their family
was at risk, would break the speed limit to get their family to safety. In
fact, I think most people would risk getting a ticket to feed, cloth, and
provide shelter for their families if that is what was needed to provide for
them.@proudduck... what you are saying would be true if it were not
for realities of history. Early on quotas of immigration were absolutely based
on ethnicity. Its not conjecture, its a historical fact. What we are dealing
with are the remnants of that history. Read up on the National Origins Formula
If following the law is so important then why don't repubs ever get on
those American employers who break the law by employing illegal Latinos? Why do
they get a free pass while illegal Latino immigrants are thrown the book?Some consistency would be nice!
@TheProudDuckBingo! But the Wilberforce Law was quick, dirty and could get
these teens planted in the USA and into the shadows. Who ever shows up for
deportation hearings? Better yet, who shows up to get on a plane to leave the
country?Besides, Obama can Blame Bush for Wilberforce. It's a perfect
law in the eyes of our progressives.
When a town puts restrictions on how many new developments can be approved, to
prevent a too-rapid influx of newcomers from overwhelming parks, schools,
infrastructure, public services, and quality of life -- it's responsible
government.When a nation puts restrictions on how many immigrants
shall be admitted, to prevent a too-rapid influx of newcomers from overwhelming
parks, schools, infrastructure, public services, and quality of life --
it's mean-spirited racism.
Let's be clear: Bishop Wester wants more immigration. He wants less
enforcement of our already barely enforced immigration laws. He wishes that the
provisions of the Wilberforce Act continue to be ignored, applying them far
beyond their legal anti-trafficking function. He is complicit in the
disappearance of these "children" into American society, disregarding
their obligation to show up for immigration hearings. He's
fine with all that. Because it suits his political interests. Honest men do
What's missing here is an acknowledgment that the Trafficking Victims
Protection Act is already being abused. The procedures for hearings are only
supposed to apply to people who are reasonably suspected to be victims of human
trafficking, not to all unaccompanied minors across the board. The
open-borders crowd is abusing the law by applying it indiscriminately. By any
means necessary, as usual.
UtahBlueDevilHave I ever gone more than 55 in a 55 zone? No, I have gone
35 in a 25, received a ticket, paid the fine, and learned a lesson.I
expect everyone else who breaks the law to pay the price of breaking the law
also, in line with the penalties described by law. Like a father to his child,
teaching prober behavior, punishment is to deter people from breaking the law.
Rewards are to thank those who did. If the government released the
names of employers, I would call them out, but they are not released to the
public, unless the business agrees. Usually it comes with a promise of reduced
fines. ID theft, social security fraud and I-9 perjury are serious
crimes, many citizens are in jail by doing the same thing. Where is equal
justice under the law?
@rbb.... you ever gone more than 55 in a 55 mph zone? Just wondering. Last I checked, there was only one person who has lived on this earth.
Now I don't condone people who come into this country illegally, but this
selective treatment of them I find most hypocritical. Do we raise as much
ruckus about our neighbors who broke the law on the way to work this morning?
Or those who have been late in paying their taxes? Or had their kids miss
school even when they weren't really sick so they could go on a family
trip? How about all those that have music on their iPhones/Android devices that
they didn't pay for? Where is condemnation for those people who have
broken laws that in the eyes of the legal system are just as egregious as these
"illegal" aliens. Do we condemn the kids in our wards for pirated
movies and music - a violation of both US and international laws.If
your going to spew condemnation - do it equitably. Call out your neighbors out
for their illegally parked boat in their front yard - or the employers who hire
these illegals. Be consistent.
Re: "The result in such a scenario is almost guaranteed — returning
the child to the violence from which they fled and possible death. This is
certainly not humane."Bishop, you're a good man. But, as
you mentioned, you're a newcomer here. I'll let you in on a little
secret -- the children showing up our borders today are not fleeing violence or
death. They're not fleeing from anything. They're fleeing toward a
better life.And who can blame them? Not Rep Chaffetz. He just wants
what's best for both them and for America -- for these youngsters to make
that better life among the families they left behind. And, to control the
borders, so as to deter other opportunistic parents from sending their kids on
these long, dangerous journeys.Ultimately, the nations to which
these kids are returned will also benefit. Kids with the moxie, perseverance,
and entrepreneurial spirit demonstrated by these kids will be an incalculable
asset to their families, their communities, and their nations.It's way past time America stopped skimming the cream off the top. These
kids both safer, and more needed, at home.
anti liarI stand with Bishop Wester and call for us to help those in need.
You call for us to write them tickets and lump them together in a guilt by
association gambit.I point out a spiteful message that is the true
opposite of compassion, you see the emperor's new clothes and completely
lose track of a logical discussion.I do agree with your point about
cheap labor but I'd amend it this way - besides businessmen, the retail
customer is guilty when they buy goods and services made by people earning less
than a living wage. So are you one of those businessmen you call out or are you
a retail customer patronizing businesses who you call out?True
friends and neighbors in our hemisphere help each other, share each others
burdens, and we don't count the cost too closely. We US citizens living
with the predominant democracy and economy in the world should do nothing less
than give a hand up to the poor in our own hemisphere instead of putting the
boot of the law on their necks.
Danite"... with the view of the millennium that there shall be
one common language and no flags fying over any land, with no poor among us, how
do be justify such uncharitable attitudes now?"Easy. By noting
that until Jesus comes again, He expects us to obey, honor, and sustain the
law.AjaxHow typical of the Left to project dubiousness
of motive, and the technique of pandering, onto the Right. No,
illegality is not a "moral fiber of our nation." And when
success is based on illegality and disrespect for one's neighbor, then yes
one's success is a threat to another's success. That goes for both
the illegal alien and the self-centered American empoyer who profits by
This compassion competition between the LDS Church and the Catholic Church is an
interesting one.But amnesty is not the moral high ground for either
Danite“Good, law-abiding citizenship is a key to more
abundant, joyful living. Taxes could be much lower, people would be more happy
with their neighbors, homes would be strengthened, and each individual would
find more inner peace, if laws were better observed.”LDS
President Spencer W. KimballEnsign Magazine - 1977 D&C
42: 79, 84-86 84 And if a man or woman shall rob, he or she shall be
delivered up unto the law of the land. 85 And if he or she shall steal,
he or she shall be delivered up unto the law of the land. 86 And if he
or she shall lie, he or she shall be delivered up unto the law of the land.illegal aliens cross the bounds of their habitation (Acts 17:26) in
violation of the law."Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that
entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the
same is a thief and a robber." (John 10:1)Has God ever promised
a reward for wrong behavior? What makes you think it should happen now?
Wow.After reading these kinds of editorials, I can see why church
attendance/congregations are diminishing for some churches.Obviously, (this particular author at least), puts the interests of illegal
aliens BEFORE those of legal American citizens.Various denominations
serve a great purpose when they admonish their members to improve their
conditions where they live. They serve at cross-purposes when they encourage
them to break the law - any law. That is what the writer is referring to, and
he knows it.BTW - HOW MANY illegal alien trespasser children I
wonder do they have enrolled in the (pricey) parochial schools? With free
tuition?I guess its' always best to advocate for "someone
else" to pay for the charity they like?I HOPE this is NOT the
Catholic Church's position on this subject. If so they are on the wrong
side of the issue, both morally and legally!
I have never for a moment believed the claims of hard right opponents of any
amnesty whatsoever for illegal immigrants that the issue for them truly hinges
on legality. Clearly, as I see it, the legality argument is simply a
rationalization or facade for, among other things, a deep seated fear that
other’s success somehow threatens their own.That Hispanic
illegal immigrants in particular are in the main anything less than a net
benefit for our economy and the moral fiber of our nation is a self-deceiving
fantasy. For a politician to pander to such base sentiment for personal gain is
A wise king once posed the question "Are we not all beggars before God?"
Particularly for Latter-day Saints, with the view of the millennium that there
shall be one common language and no flags fying over any land, with no poor
among us, how do be justify such uncharitable attitudes now?
dave4197"...crossing the border does not constitute a serious an
infraction."A rationalization. It is in fact a misdemeanor
crime. Plus, illegal entry is only one of the numerous crimes in the typical
illegal alien's criminal portfolio. "We are friends and
neighbors in this hemisphere..."True friends respect borders and
laws of sovereign nations."... a spiteful message ... not
humanitarian nor compassionate."You do bear false witness."Let's not slam the door on a bunch of poor people."If you truly care about these individuals, why not encourage them to
build up their own countries? Or is illegal-alien cheap labor, at
the expense of American taxpayers who must subsidize their wages and pay in
other ways as well, too much for self-centered American businessmen to resist?
After weeks of insistence that criminal violence was responsible for the surge
of Central American migrants, the U.S. has begun a regional public-relations
campaign to fight the widespread belief in Central America that children and
families will be allowed to stay in the U.S. if they are caught by the Border
Patrol.That belief has been fueled both by migrant smugglers seeking
more clients, and by calls home from children and families who have been
released by the thousands in recent years, with notices to appear in immigration
court, because there are no facilities to hold them. DN June 20I see
people are still trying to convince us that a duck is not a duck, and teenagers
are not coming for amnesty? The elephant in the room is the 290,000 adults
allowed to stay.
BYU Alumyour post is about guilt by association. not humanitarian nor
compassionate. like Chaffetz. you complement each other.I have a
different view. Hope you can see the light, after all you're a BYU Alum. I
have some BYU Alums in my house. Most of these people are fleeing violence,
seeking safety and opportunity. Most are not what you say, you need to get your
facts straight, of course there are a few criminals that we need to jail and
deport, but crossing the border does not constitute a serious an infraction.
Most of these people just need a shelter and a chance.Your
suggestion about housing them is a good one. I'm seeking to do that. But not in order to send your message. My message is Bienvenidos
Amigos! We are friends and neighbors in this hemisphere, let's act the
part. C'mon Alum! If you truly "feel sorry" then be helpful
instead of sending a spiteful message that is just the opposite of compassion.
We have a relatively opulent economy, we have education, we personally have
untapped abilities to help and teach. Let's not slam the door on a bunch
of poor people.
Lots of opinions stated here with a lot of passion on both sides.Rep. Chafettz is NOT a mean-spirited person, but a very good congressman.
Something has to be done to stop this flow of illegal immigrants through our
southern border. More of these people coming into the country now are drug
dealers and unsavory individuals who will not contribute to society but intend
to do us great harm! We cannot take everybody (millions and millions) who wants
to come to this country and live on the dole. Use common sense. There has to be
someone, somewhere who tries to stop this overwhelming flow of people! Jason
Chafettz is one of those people.I would like to suggest that all of
those who disagree, contact Homeland Security and volunteer to take several of
these "children", and teenagers into your home, relieve the problem, and
stop complaining about someone who is trying to get the message to Central
America and Mexico to please stop coming. I, too, feel sorry for these
unfortunate little children, but there has to be a solution to have this
migration stop before they come across the border!
What's going on here?Chaffetz bill is no longer relevant. It
was written into the House bill.One fourth of the teenagers (90% of
the *children*) are from Mexico, and the law doesn't apply to them. 66%
came here with a parent or guardian. There is already an option to send the rest
home. No law needs to be passed.And what about the 290,000 adults
that have been given allowed into the country, if they promise to appear in
court. This looks more and more like a finely crafted diversion. I
fear if we don't enforce our laws now, America is doomed.
Bishop John C. Wester has always used keeping the families together as a way to
drum up support for illegal immigration. Now he wants us to keep the children
here, and separate them from their family in their own country? If
you place the children here with other people illegally, they never show up to
court. That's good enough reason to hold them in sutibile facilities. They
are here because of Obama not enforcing the laws and giving a de feacto amnesty.
It's time to stop trying to convince America otherwise.
"...except those whose social agenda is based on xenophobia and
hatred."A flat-out lie. "Obeying, honoring, and
sustaining the law" is not hatred. Rather, it is the only way to show love
and compassion to everyone.
Once again, why pick on Chaffetz when his bill has already been covered by
another bill that has been passed? It all sounds very political. Any
parent knows that rewarding the bad behavior of a child results in more bad
behavior. True compassion is leading people down the road of good behavior, and
rewarding them for their efforts. Bad behavior should never be rewarded.
Bishop Wester gave a speech to a small group at BYU two years ago and I was very
impressed with him then. He is great man and I'm pleased that he speaks out
so directly on specific issues like this. Chaffetz is an opportunist and lacks
compassion, I for one cannot support him.
Chaffetz bill addresses the reason the children (teenagers) are coming here.
"Amends the William Wilberforce Trafficking Victims Protection
Reauthorization Act of 2008 to direct the Secretary of State to negotiate
agreements between the United States and other countries for the repatriation of
children. Requires that such agreements protect children from severe forms of
trafficking in persons and provide for their safe removal and
repatriation."The teenagers coming over the border are not
refugees, they are here for the amnesty. They were not trafficked here, their
parents paid people to bring them here. Why pick on Chaffetz? His
bill has already been passed as part of the house bill right before the recess.
It ends the DACA, ends the Wilberforce bill being used incorrectly, and
appropriates money for their deportation. The Wilberforce bill has an opt out
for exceptional circumstances. The President could be returning them to their
families right now.
What about the helpless children dying in the desert because of this
administration's siren song- those deaths are on the hands of Washington.
Some people seem to think that unless you open up your home and let in anyone
who wants to come live there, then you are not charitable. While more can
probably be done to help people in other countries, the answer is not to invite
everyone in the world to come live here in the U.S.America is one of
the most charitable countries in the world. People freely give money, time, and
goods to help poor people all over the world. We let in millions of LEGAL
immigrants every year. But if we don't have laws and a border that are
respected by people in this country and by people who want to come to this
country, then we really are not a country then are we?
That because Jason Chaffetz is a Tea-Publican first and foremost,and true
follower of Jesus Christ second, or third, or fourth....
In 2013 9% of the children coming here were 12 years or younger. That means 91%
are teenagers. Among all countries, less than 1% (94 cases) of apprehended
unaccompanied children are younger than 1, and only about 2% (785) are 5 or
younger (PEW research)Also 2 out of three are coming here with a
parent or guardian. Honduras sent the most, 13,244, Mexico was second at 11,550,
next was Guatemala with 11,449, and El Salvador with 9.835.Let this
be the last time we see this happen.
RE: James E "I'm so tired of this false charity. Providing an
incentive for Central American parents to send their girls and boys north to the
Promised Land is NOT charity. Using the bodies of dead children to promote your
social agenda is NOT charity. Releasing children to other people already here
illegally is NOT charity. These children are being used as drug mules, sex
slaves, and many other heinous activities and enabling their travel into the US
is NOT charity."Sending these children back to narco-dominated
communities as fast as we can is NOT charity!
Thank you James E.In my studying of this issue, it is the charities,
including religious charities that are financially benefiting from this abuse.
Finally, someone who speaks the truth. Thank you Bishop Wester.
The mostly teenagers are here for amnesty. If we don't return them it will
only lead to more coming here illegally. If we want to stop them,
and save future surges, dying in the desert and being raped, we need to force
them to come here legally. Their parents are paying enough for it, one has to
question why they use the illegal path. Compassion would be stopping
millions more from coming here illegally. Teaching them that doing things right
has rewards, and doing things wrong does not.
Yeah, I guess the only really humane and charitable thing to do would be to just
erase the borders entirely, and let all 7,000,000,000 of the world's
destitute come here, take all available jobs, and gather their sustenance from
the U. S. taxpayer. Anything less surely just wouldn't be Christian.
That's where we're headed, right? Should be wonderful.
James E -- please, please spend some time working to learn the truth about what
is happening here. Turn off the hate radio and listen to people who tell the
truth.People like Bishop Wester.NO ONE is trying to use
these children to promote their social agenda except those whose social agenda
is based on xenophobia and hatred. That includes Mr. Chafetz and many of his
I support Rep. Chaffetz and this bill that he is sponsoring. I appreciate that
he has the courage to do what is right in regards to illegal immigrationWe
show a shallow and counterfeit love if we just ignore the law, and let them come
in illegally and live with their relatives who are already here illegally. What
does that teach them? That laws don't matter?These illegal immigrants
will be more blessed in the long run if they learn about the rule of law and how
important it is to the stability of a society. Running away from their problems
and illegally entering another country is not the solution. True love and
concern for their long term well being would call us to securely close our
border and speedily send home those who have illegally crossed it. Once they are
safely home they and their parents can do the courageous, hard work necessary to
clean up their own country and make it great.
"Thou shalt bear false witness," "Thou shalt not steal," and
"Thou shalt not covet," also are very much part of the Gospel. The
Texas border situation has been found to be largely a scam, rife with violations
of these three commmandments. Already it has been found for example
that very few of the individuals entering illegally are in fact the young
children; that of these, fewer still are in fact unnaccompanied (many of them
have illegal-alien parents waiting for them in this country, by strategem); that
fewer still are in fact fleeing hunger and violence at the peril of their lives
(this notion, designed to deviously manipulate the emotions of Americans, has
been debunked -- for the most part, those making the trek to enter this country
illegally are doing so not because of imminent danger, but rather in direct
response to Obama's promise of no deportation.Most are in fact
adults coming here in a covetous desire to enjoy the fruits of freedom but
without a willingness to pay the price attached thereto. Other parties, with
ulterior motivations, are helping to facilitate this illegal and immoral
enterprise.Chaffetz' proposal seeks to administer relief
"In wisdom and in order."
I'm so tired of this false charity. Providing an incentive for Central
American parents to send their girls and boys north to the Promised Land is NOT
charity. Using the bodies of dead children to promote your social agenda is NOT
charity. Releasing children to other people already here illegally is NOT
charity. These children are being used as drug mules, sex slaves, and many other
heinous activities and enabling their travel into the US is NOT charity. To say
it is sanctions that abuse. Stop the insanity!
Let's be honest. Jason Chaffetz is, at his core, a political opportunist.
His positions have relatively little to do with putting in place policies that
help people and relatively much to do with promoting his own political self
interest. There's nothing more to him than that.
My thoughts too, Bishop Wester. Thank you for writing clearly about the
problems with Chavetz's proposed law, the problems include anti
humanitarian, explicitly un-American.See my posts on this subject. I see
that we have a wave of refugees, not invaders. I see that poor people need help
right now with food and shelter, not jail. I see that the root problems include
lack of education, gang related violence in their home country, and corrupt
governments, but we're failing to even talk much about the root problems
and how to change them. We can, we should, we're the example democracy for
the world including our own hemisphere. We're failing for too many
centuries to help the poor in our own back yard.Beinvenidos amigos. We
can help. Not by Chavetz's law, by a higher law based on caring for our
neighbors, based on humanitarian principles.
"Denying a minor who may be a victim of human trafficking access to legal
counsel in the highly complicated realm of immigration law may make deportation
proceedings more expedient, but at what cost to basic human decency?"Court dates are terrifying WITH representation. I shudder to think what
it is like for these kids.