All this autonomy has me pondering on a particular question. Now that the NCAA
has approved what I'm referring to as the "Reggie Bush rules", will
he get his Heisman Trophy back? After all he was just taking money and free
rent to afford to play collegiate football.So much greed and
arrogance within College Football right now!
SoCalCougar1985Tustin, CAThere is one reason and one reason only
that Utah and Colorado were invited to participate in the Pac10. The league got
tired of watching Florida State and Alabama win the National Title while beating
up on the bottom dwellers of their respective conferences (Duke, Syracuse, North
Carolina, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, etc) and also including teams on their schedule
like Idaho, Florida Atlantic, Louisiana Tech, etc. (and ALWAYS at home). also laughable that anyone would think an elite athlete would choose to
spend his college days living in Utah playing a team at the bottom of the league
when they could live on the west coast and play on an elite team.____________I don't exactly see elite players going to BYU,
do you? Can't wait to hear your definition of elite to explain players at
BYU compared to choosing other schools.What's laughable is that you
ignore the fact that many Ute players have go to play in the NFL. Sounds elite
to me. If you are good, you can make it.
"SoCalCougar1985,Why didn't they just invite UCSB and New
Mexico then?"TV markets.
SoCalCougar1985,Why didn't they just invite UCSB and New Mexico
There is one reason and one reason only that Utah and Colorado were invited to
participate in the Pac10. The league got tired of watching Florida State and
Alabama win the National Title while beating up on the bottom dwellers of their
respective conferences (Duke, Syracuse, North Carolina, Vanderbilt, Kentucky,
etc) and also including teams on their schedule like Idaho, Florida Atlantic,
Louisiana Tech, etc. (and ALWAYS at home). While Florida and Alabama play
glorified scrimmages and a couple of quality games on their way to a National
Title the Pac10 teams are beating up on each other. The Pac10 needed more bottom
dwellers in their league. It's also laughable that anyone would think an
elite athlete would choose to spend his college days living in Utah playing a
team at the bottom of the league when they could live on the west coast and play
on an elite team.
@KimmyP"You say the athletic departments at BYU are in the
black, if so, the reason they are is because of outside funds from the LDS
Church."Sorry, but that isn't true at all. The LDS Church
does not allow any tithing money to go to BYU athletics. Also, funds from
tuition, books, etc. do not support BYU athletics. BYU athletics supports itself
through its own revenue and donations from boosters."Surely, you
aren't trying to have us believe all of the programs at BYU make money, or
the football makes enough to cover any deficiency from the other sports. That
simply is not true."No, not all BYU sports programs make money,
but a good number of them do. At most schools, football and men's
basketball make a profit and support all of the other programs that lose money.
At BYU, football and men's basketball are not the only ones that profit. In
some years, men's volleyball and soccer and even women's soccer has
made a profit.Our cross-country team, swim team, etc. lose money but
BYU is financially profitable in more sports than most other schools.
@GoRed"Remember, whenever you refer to Utah as being a
"lower tier school," you are are admitting that your cougars are an even
lower tier school themselves."That's a great attitude to
have. You realize that utah is a lower tier school and can't find a way to
argue against it, so you just try to put BYU down instead.By the
way, in what way is BYU a lower tier school than utah outside of conference
affiliation? We have a bigger school, fanbase, and stadium. We have a better
overall athletic program. We actually make money every year in sports as opposed
to the utes who have lost quite a bit as they try to keep up in the Pac-12.Face it, utah is way in over their heads right now. They are spending
more money than they have to try to be competitive, and they can't even be
competitive. BYU lives within their means, makes money, and is still a winning
program year in and year out. utah is drowning in the Pac-12 and will soon
cement themselves with the likes of Colorado, Kansas, Illinois, and Virginia.
@NunLike most schools BYU has only a few programs that "operate
in the black" - if the definition of that is self-sufficiency. However, I
would point out that the Church does not subsidize the athletics programs like
you said. In fact the Church hasn't even subsidized new building
construction for years. These things are paid for with BYU's own revenue
and donations - LOTS of donations.
Bluto:I just put your entire quote into a Google search engine, and
there was only ONE hit. And that link took me to your post on page 1 of this
thread.So in other words, you made that up. Busted.
It seems strange that the programs that are the most corrupt and out front of
this talking about education. They never cared about it before, but suddenly it
is the whole reason to upset the world of college sports.
Dick needs to man up and admit the BYU's quest for more exposure has
resulted in them being exposed as not attractive to any P5 conference. If they
were, they would be a member. Being dependent on ESPN for
significant tv revenue dollars, which are still eclipsed by conference shared
monies like the PAC12, SEC and Big10, puts the Cougars at a serious economic
disadvantage. If they cannot create attractive football schedules in the future,
the past indicates they are having trouble with a capital T, then ESPN will look
at the poor ratings and do what is in their best interests not the
school's. In short, BYU is not in control of their own TV destiny since
the ESPN contract is so much more lucrative than their own station and an ESPN
is making the final decision.
Part 1Having a tough time predicting how this will all play out.
Will BYU be willing to pay its student/athletes like the P5 + Notre Dame
schools? If not will we be able to recruit against those schools (especially
Utah) for the 3-star athletes we are getting now. There will always be some
good players that will want to attend BYU for the atmosphere and the education
but we will lose some that will follow the money.BYU is certainly
the definition of a "Bubble Team" now. Fortunate not to be in the
Mountain West Conference and left out in the cold, but not in a P5 conference or
considered to have the Notre Dame resume. If we can't get invited into one
of the P5 conferences I think we will have our bubble burst. It has
been an interesting couple of years as an independent but there has to be an
urgency to get a deal done with a P5 conference soon if we want to continue as a
Part 2Finally, congratulations to the Utes on their being part of
the PAC-12. They are bottom feeders today but as Colorado proved in the Big-12
against Nebraska, Texas and Oklahoma there are ways to build a championship team
from bottom feeders. At least in the past it was possible, who
knows what will happen with the new rules and rulers.
The hubris of Utah fans is amazing. The context of this discussion is about what
will happen to the national landscape of college sports. It is about how this
ruling is likely to eliminate many non-football sports programs, and how a few
power schools will continue keep all the power. This is not how P5 schools will
keep the power, but how a handful of P5 schools will keep the power and money.
Harmon went out of his way to center on Alabama and Kansas State - two schools
that aren't BYU and Utah. Trying to get people to see the broader
picture.Reading all the comments the last couple of days the only
thing you hear from Utah fans is that if the ruling hurts BYU and USU then we
are all for it. How about looking beyond what this does to one school, and look
at what it will do to all of college sports? And then realize that long term it
will likely hurt Utah as well. But hey - let's let the power brokers do
whatever they want as long as it might have a negative impact on BYU.
Bluto, this is what Larry Scott actually said."The NCAA must
determine if the increase would be across the board or if each school would have
a different increase based on cost of living in their area. Do athletes at
California, up the road from Scott's conference office, receive more than
athletes in Pullman, Wash.?"Denver Post 6/15/2011
Re: tooSmartThe heat hasn't been towards Dick Harmon.
He's just a messenger with an opinion. The "heat" has been towards
BYU fans who are "experts" on all things Pac12 and Utah. I know it
hurts but Utah is in the Pac12 and Utah will remain in the Pac12 and all of the
Pac11.1, bottom-dweller stuff will never change that. Home games with the likes
of USC and Oregon versus Homecoming against Savannah State. How long will
season ticket holders put up with that?
Poor Dick!Worried about how the big schools are going to get bigger and
keep little blue down. It is odd to read this coming from someone who a few
years ago said that the cougars had a large TV cash cow - which they have killed
and apparently eaten, now they are crying foul. The truth is
universities have paid for performance forever, when I was a college athlete, I
had a full scholarship, room, board and some spending money. The coach helped me
get a job and so on. If Dick wants to complain about something he should write
about what title nine has done to men's and women's spots and how that
should change that. Writing about paying athletes and crying about this topic
just shows that he is worried about BYU and their in ability to compete on a
larger stage. Poor Dick!
One of the things that bothers me the most about this is the athletes are going
to get even more money, as if a free education wasn't enough. Not only do
they want to pay them more, they want to compensate them for using their image
with merchandise and whatnot. That's fine, but if they're going to be
compensated for all the merchandise, I think they should lose their
scholarships, man up, and pay for college like the rest of us with the money
they earn. No way do they deserve tuition, cost of living, AND compensation for
use of their image handed to them on a silver platter while the rest of the
student body has to work two jobs and go into severe debt just to eat, make
rent, and pay the ridiculous tuition and fees that go toward all the fancy
multi-million dollar athletic facilities while they themselves are taking
classes in run-down, 50-year-old buildings with lousy, outdated materials and
Those on the outside-looking-in will NOT take this lying down. Many law firms
will become extremely wealthy on huge class action lawsuits. I just don't
see the P5 getting their own greedy way on this monopoly. Yes, it is disguised
as being what is best for the student athlete, but they won't have to dig
very deep to discover the real motivation: how the rich schools stand to make
billions. There are just so many legal ramifications, I just don't ever see
this ever getting completely implemented.I am really surprised that
the NCAA was so willing to throw non-P5 schools, Olympic Sports, and
Women's sports under the bus.
Zachbrwn:"I don't think Congress will allow Air Force, Army, and
Navy's football teams regulated to lower tier status. Congress can also
take away the Anti Trust status from the Power 5 conferences."You bring up an interesting point. I don't think congress will sit back
when some of the schools supported by their constituents are being left out,
with the possibility of losing millions. Orrin Hatch has already come out saying
this is bad legislation by the NCAA. You're absolutely right there are
still lots of issues and problems with this that will need to be worked out.
Slowing weaning myself off of college football. Have discovered
Rugby. Faster play, no band, cheer leaders, no hype. Matches are shorter in
length - don't waste a whole Fall afternoon.It's
international and comes in various team sizes and has tournaments.Other "minor" sports deserve some attention like Lacrosse.Perhaps college football will implode from greed and cost and incompetence.
@ blutoYou say the athletic departments at BYU are in the black, if
so, the reason they are is because of outside funds from the LDS Church. Surely,
you aren't trying to have us believe all of the programs at BYU make money,
or the football makes enough to cover any deficiency from the other sports. That
simply is not true.
Just like the pro sports. The cities with money have the best teams. The same
will be in football. Though it will never happen, IRS agent is right on. There
is too much money and greed. This is an example of it in the highest form.
Interesting the heat from Ute fans against Dick Harmon. Read the article again,
this time without your crimnson-colored glasses, and you'll discover the
other coaches he quotes (Kansas State) and their views. You really think Utah
can compete against USC UCLA and Oregon when it comes to paying players a
stipend? Do you think this will help Utah get out of the cellar in the PAC 12?
It was pretty obvious Whittingham was just singing the company line when he said
it was OK. He can't be objective....he's too tied into the PAC 12 to
say anything else. That might not last long, however, if the current scenario
of bowl-less seasons continues for Utah. This compounds the problem, not solves
it. The PAC 12 gave Utah their chance and they promptly lost to Colorado the
first year, the worst road team in America at home in SLC. Now they just get a
pat on the head and an "atta-boy" for being #12 of 12 so a conference
championship game can be held. That's where they will stay, too.
I feel sorry for the have-nots of the P5. Utah will not be able to build a
winning program without having the same sort of access to top flight players as
the rest of their league does. If they are unable to get to a bowl in the next
two to three years, there is almost no way they will ever do so if the pay for
play model takes effect.
@ Bluto,You say byu will be fine, because they operate in the black.
Really, how does that happen? The sports programs all make money, so they
don't need any outside money to operate the athletic programs at byu.
Right, the church gives zero dollars to byu to fund shortfalls in the athletic
department, nice try.
@BlutoSandy, UTLarry Scott of the Pac-12 said..."Players at UCLA, USC or Washington will be allowed to pay their players
more than a Utah or Wazzu, as the cost of living is greater in LA and Seattle,
than it is in Pullman Tucson or Salt Lake City". Conferences can
set their own rules. This is not an advantage for Utah and other bottom-feeders
at all.-------------There you again, still waiting for
you to cite your source. Your spin is priceless!For laughs lets
just assume you are correct. Please tell us how cost of living adjustments is
an advantage of playing in LA and Settle over Utah? At best it is a
break even since it will cost more to play in LA and Settle. For
example, you would need around $4,400 in LA to maintain the same standard of
life that you can have with $3,373 in Salt Lake.Now if there is no
cost of living adjustment then it would be more of an advantage to play in a
place like Salt Lake than in would be in LA/Seattle.
@dew cougarsRemember, whenever you refer to Utah as being a
"lower tier school," you are are admitting that your cougars are an even
lower tier school themselves. This is the same Utah team that has
owned your Provo school 4 years in a row, 5 of 6, 9 of 12, and overall 57-34-4.
I don't think Congress will allow Air Force, Army, and Navy's football
teams regulated to lower tier status. Congress can also take away the Anti Trust
status from the Power 5 conferences. Plus can't some of the Non P5 schools
file a class action suit against the P5 schools. This still needs to be played
@TheGreatPac12"Just as long as the Utes stay where they are then
it doesn't matter what happens."Unfortunately for the Utes
and their fans, that is all too likely what will happen. There is no way they
will be able to spend with the likes of USC, Oregon, UCLA, etc. They won't
be able to offer the money to the elite players that those schools and others of
their ilk in the other 4 "P" conferences will be able to offer, and thus
they will not get them. And in the end, they won't be able to enjoy
seasons like their former BCS bowl ones, but rather will remain exactly where
they have been since joining the PAC-12.And this problem will not be
unique to Utah, but will be shared by a good 30 to 40 other lower-tier P5
entities, including the "Gophers", who I cheered for during my youth.
We will never be able to enjoy the competition that once made it such that any
hard-pushing team could reap the rewards of their effort. College sports, as
most of us grew up with, are dead.
Recruiting advantage for Alabama, Florida, Ohio State and USC. More top tier
kids will go there year after year of those schools will be crown NC. Boring?
Lower tier schools like Utah, Cal, and etc. will be left out and you better
count on that.
Go PAC12! Go Utes! Just as long as the Utes stay where they are then it
doesn't matter what happens.
The solution is simple. Take the money out of the equation for the decision
makers. Make "college football" the product, not individual teams. All
monies generated whether through TV contracts, marketing, etc. would be pooled
and divided equally among all participating schools. The money could then be
used as the schools see fit to use it. The different divisions (I,
II and III) could be maintained to encourage competition among schools with
similar talent levels and divide the revenues from their play. The change would
encourage fair competition and would create even greater parity. Teams could
play a nine game schedule, concluding at the end of November, with each
conference sending their champion to the playoffs (16 teams total). Other
schools would be invited at large to bowl games to create intriguing match-ups
(Army/Navy, regional rivalries, out of conference games, etc.).No
more "haves" and "have-nots". Just pure collegiate football
competition. The problem is, it is way too logical, so it would never be
To Mr. Harmon, this may have been one of your best articles and you've had
lot's of great ones.
Thanks Bluto, you nailed it man! Yesterday I wrote that the P5 leagues will
divide and conquer. Meaning the richest leagues (SEC/Big 10) in the P5 will
spend/pay more than the other conferences. But you dude, brought it right to
the front door, absolutely, the richest teams in each conference will spend/pay
more than the have-nots in their respective conferences. Ya know, the sad part
is the Maryland's, Utah's, NC States, CU's, and so on of the P5
don't realize they have been sold a bill oaf goods and are simply sparring
partners for the perpetual Champions! Sad, so very sad.
Probably the most brutally honest column on this topic. It sounds to me like the
train is leaving the station and its only carrying 65 teams.
hmmm,Now dick is worried about the little guy? interesting.I wonder why thi could be??? hmmm?BYU Provo = Rexburg
@kaysvillecougarFrom the DN:Dick Harmon is a columnist
for the Deseret News with a focus on college athletics. He previously worked as
executive sports editor, sports columnist, city editor and police reporter for
the Provo Daily Herald for 26 years. He has often appeared on ESPN and other
broadcasting programs nationwide. He has written three books and co-authored a
fourth. His work has appeared in The Sporting News and other national
publications. He and his wife AnnaLee have four children and reside in Orem,
Utah.Dick is a columnist for the Deseret News, with a focus on
college athletics.It has been a pleasure enlightening you.Your welcome.
Kaysvillecougar: Wasn't it Marshall in the Motor City Bowl?
Larry Scott of the Pac-12 said..."Players at UCLA, USC or
Washington will be allowed to pay their players more than a Utah or Wazzu, as
the cost of living is greater in LA and Seattle, than it is in Pullman Tucson or
Salt Lake City". Conferences can set their own rules. This is
not an advantage for Utah and other bottom-feeders at all. This is designed to
bolster the 10 or 15 Super-Teams in the P-5's, the rest are just fodder to
them, i.e the Washington Generals.The real losers are the
Mid-Level-Doormat teams of the P-5 leagues... i.e. Utah, Wazzu, Colorado,
Kansas, Baylor, Texas Tech, Vanderbilt, Kentucky, Iowa State, Indiana, Purdue,
Rutgers, Maryland, Duke, NC State, Wake Forrest, Vanderbilt, Northwestern etc,
to name just a few.....BYU will be just fine, as they are one of
only a few programs which operate in the black, unlike Utah. They pay as they go
and they have the resources to match anything the upper level P-5's
offer.And don't forget Title-9. Something is going to
give and it will be Men's Olympic Sports.
@ there you go. Thanks for enlightening us on the team that Dick Harmon writes
about 90% of the time. He was hired to write about BYU and all things touching
BYU. That shouldn't shock anyone who's been in Utah the last 20 yrs. I
don't see how these NCAA reforms can be anything but bad for USU. For Utah
they may be good. For BYU it's a push. For college football in general
it's more of the same. They still don't seem to get it. There's
this constant battle to exclude "unworthy" programs. Every team should
be able to compete but when only 5 conferences are making the rules, guess
who's going to win? Now, Alabama, USC and Florida have a great chance of
winning, but why exclude a team that has a spectacular season, even if
they're not one of the big boys? It's a shame. I remember when BYU
played a Tulane team that was 11-1 or 12-0 back in the late 90's. Tulane
had no business being in the lowly motor city bowl. They cleaned our clock that
I see this doing little for the kids on the hill. They operate in the red now
and this will only make it worse. If they have to pay their players that just
add a deficit to their already red spreadsheet. Be careful what you ask for.Can you imagine the law suits coming out of this? The NCAA better beef
up their lawyer pool cause it could cost them billions in court costs. The
so-called power conferences should do the same.I see an outrage from the
hundreds of schools that cannot play by the same rules and their millions of
fans. They should just leave well enough alone.
Interesting perspective.When Utah State was on the outside looking
in...twice... Dick wrote the same op-ed...Right?Oops.Dick has a habit of showing he bleeds Cougar blue.Could the
problem be one of where you stand depends upon where you sit?On this
issue (as well as other issues) Dick clearly has a seat at the Cougar table.
Well said. And for those who think Utah will ascend to lofty heights, take a
look at your Utah Jazz. They are in the same position in the NBA as you are in
the PAC12. Bottom feeders with little if any bright future. We have pay for
play football. It is called the NFL.