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Join the discussion: Is feminism misunderstood?

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  • Mormonmom Draper, UT
    Aug. 3, 2014 4:23 p.m.

    There is a very high-profile Republican woman that I would back for President….or any elected position. Abby Huntsman. When the Republicans front an intelligent person, I'd vote for her or him, actually.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 1, 2014 11:59 p.m.

    nycut

    I'm pointing out that the views of feminism and feminists you've expressed here are also limited by the same 200 word threshold. Feminism is not inherantly evil but it is not all rainbows and kittens either. If one can hate in the name of motherhood, it is naive to pretend that one cannot hate in the name of feminism.

    Side-stepping real discussion to bash those who reject the dark portions of feminism, while blindly enabling zealots to continue to play partisan political politics about a phony "war on women" in an effort to stifle any such conversation that a dark side may even exist, is truly ironic.





    Red Corvette

    "Ask Kate Kelly if feminism is misunderstood."

    Or ask Kate Kelly why she didn't join the Community of Christ if she wanted the priesthood and to believe in the Book of Mormon. A simple straightforward choice that would have solved her dilemma (and respected other peoples choices) without the need for stage managed drama. (I am not LDS)

    Perhaps she didn't really want the priesthood - she wanted martyrdom. In which case, she got what she wanted and her brand of feminism is understood.

  • nycut New York, NY
    Aug. 1, 2014 8:38 a.m.

    @Counter Intelligence
    I'm pointing out that the views of feminism and feminists you've expressed here seem quite limited, and that feminism includes much more than "the feminists you're talking about" -- feminists as you narrowly define them.

    There are serious, real-world discussions to be had.

    Side-stepping real discussion to bash (your subset of) feminists is an example of ignoring real issues, and using feminism as a partisan political wedge, as I mentioned before.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    July 31, 2014 10:49 p.m.

    Tyler D

    "did you just wake up this morning wanting to beat up a straw man?"



    No: Merely wishing to confront a straw woman implication that there is any correlation between conservative American women and Islamic terrorist bombers.



    The comment was written before your post regarding Condi Rice (who would be a better president than Hillary)




    nycut

    No need to revive 60's "hyperbole" cartoon images of feminism when Obama's own "Life of Julia" re-election cartoon provides the perfect example of how todays feminists condescendingly view women.

    "Julia" feminists claim to be pro-women; when in reality their actual behavior displays an intense distaste for anything that is unique to the gender. They vacillate between playing victim and demanding privilege according to whatever works at the moment, not what is fair or rational.


    It is disingenuous for feminisexist posters to claim that Palin is somehow more deserving of contempt than Barbara Boxer, Patty Murray or Sheila Jackson Lee, etc., who each have a much larger litany of irrational statements in their portfolio; but expect to be excused from criticism merely because they represent left-wing cartoon feminism.

    Ernest T Bass
    Your two alternative are YOUR narrow views.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    July 31, 2014 5:48 p.m.

    The issue comes from two points of view. Those who value women as equal to men and those who believe women are there to be subservient and secondary to men.

  • Frozen Fractals Salt Lake City, UT
    July 31, 2014 3:08 p.m.

    @Sven
    "I'll make a prediction: This movement is going to grow exponentially. "

    Then why is the gender divide (with women slanted Democratic) growing?

  • wanderer9641 N.S., 00
    July 31, 2014 3:07 p.m.

    It is unfortunate that young feminists read the definition of feminism in the dictionary. say great, then stop. If you go to sites like avoiceformen you do not find opposition to equal pay for equal work, equal rights, equal opportunities. So what is the big disconnect between the dictionary and reality. If more women started asking why is there a difference between what I think and what others have to deal with and research for answers that are true, even if you do not like the answers, then it will open up room for positive discussion. As it is now, the dictionary definition is a smokescreen and the rank and file feminists need to find out what radical feminism is doing and how it has ramifications on society. Is it trying for equality - or supremacy?

  • nycut New York, NY
    July 31, 2014 2:30 p.m.

    @Counter Intelligence said:

    >Ultimately the feminist belief that real women neuter themselves, kill their babies and behave like men is about as misogynist as one can humanly be. Its hard for feminists to be credible when it also rather obvious that they actually hate women.<

    I had to read this twice to see if it was a joke.

    This statement bears absolutely no relationship to the feminist women and men I know. It's like a cartoon description of feminism drawn by someone who never read a book.

    I don't mean that as an insult. It's just that there is a lot more accurate information out there about feminists and feminism if you're interested in the subject.

    I hope it was just careless hyperbole, but it reads like a ridiculous stereotype from the '60s.

    More fuel for the fire I guess.

  • karenstraughan edmonton/canada, 00
    July 31, 2014 9:56 a.m.

    >“It seems like a lot of these problems these women have with feminism would be solved with a five-minute conversation,” wrote Allegra Ringo<

    I find it amusing that the assumption is that we have never had a conversation with feminists, rather than that we might have made our decision based on hundreds of conversations (thousands, in some cases) with feminists.

    >“Aligning yourself with the dominant group and upholding their ideas is a subconscious attempt to benefit from their power.”<

    Again, we see only a rigid dichotomy of either/or. If you are against feminism, you must be FOR the "patriarchy". Oppose those who claim to speak for the "oppressed" and you're in bed with the "oppressors".

    My kids had more ability to conceptualize nuance when they were toddlers.

    Last line of the article mentions power, PR and accessibility, nothing about whether they're correct in their beliefs, or just in their actions. "More doilies and herbal tea, and free babysitting! Then those WAFs will like us..." Never a single sign of considering that maybe they've got some things wrong, and that WAF have a point (lots of them, actually).

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    July 31, 2014 9:30 a.m.

    @Demisana – “History lessons in order here - it was the Republican party that was the anti-slavery movement…”

    You do realize the parties have almost completely flip flopped, don’t you? The Democrat mindset of 1860 is now entirely at home within the Republican Party (e.g., Nixon’s Southern strategy).

    I actually agree with the rest of your post (including the equal pay part) – feminism should be about choosing the path you want and if that means raising children, more power to you.

    You go girl!

    @Counter Intelligence – “Tyler D basically admitting that he believes that only liberal women can represent women…”

    You must be confusing me with another Tyler D, or did you just wake up this morning wanting to beat up a straw man?

    Please reread my comments and pay careful attention to what I wrote about Condi Rice…

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    July 31, 2014 8:41 a.m.

    2 bits - you are exactly correct; as evidenced by Schee needing to put words in your mouth and Tyler D basically admitting that he believes that only liberal women can represent women (because being an incompetent left winger, such as "Julia", is what every woman should desire). Truth: feminists do NOT represent all women any more than the Klan represents all white people

    Its also interesting to read justifications for bashing Sarah Palin - yet she did not gain her power by riding the glory of her husband, or retain power by participating in the character assassination of all of his inconvenient dalliances (or defend the rapist of a 12 year old). Regardless of Palins (or Bauchman) politics, she is far more self made than Hillary.

  • Counter Intelligence Salt Lake City, UT
    July 31, 2014 8:39 a.m.

    A legitimate movement becomes counterproductive when playing the victim, in order to manipulate passive/aggressive power, becomes more important than actual competence. Martin Luther King's goal of a color blind society is compromized when it degenerates into the race bating of Al Sharpton. American feminists have destryed any credibility of their own movement by devolving into believing that there are only two genders; men and victims. Truth: "Save the women and children first" always really meant "kill the men". Feminists don't qualify as being victims merely because they cant force someone else to pay for their contraception when they can cheaply and easily do it themselves. The more feminists sound like Sharpton than King - the less credibility they deserve.

    Ultimately the feminist belief that real women neuter themselves, kill their babies and behave like men is about as misogynist as one can humanly be. Its hard for feminists to be credible when it also rather obvious that they actually hate women.

  • nycut New York, NY
    July 31, 2014 7:51 a.m.

    Many of the conservative, even Republican, women I know are feminists. They just know that can't put it that way without the risk of being misunderstood, since the idea of what feminism is has been so widely caricatured: "anti-motherhood, anti-marriage, anti-men."

    It's a trap to think of the ideals of feminism as being a left vs. right issue, and, as @RealMaverick suggests, that unflattering charicature has been very carefully and deliberately created for use as a political wedge.

    It has been effective: conservative women barely have a way to discuss feminist ideals-- which are hardly radical.

    While they may disagree on tone or approach or tactics, liberal and conservative feminists largely share the same goals: supporting women's ability to be exactly who and what they want to be.

  • An American Living in Germany Wiesbaden, 00
    July 31, 2014 5:44 a.m.

    "Feminism is not a misunderstood term. Feminism is a politically-charged label that seeks to remake women in the image of whatever the politically-correct say it is in the moment. It is an anathema to my happiness, my liberty and my life as a woman seeking to fulfill the measure of my creation, to be a daughter, sister, wife and mother. Men and women alike have inalienable rights and our God-given agency to pursue the fulfillment of our respective quest or deny who we are. I choose womanhood, in all of its majesty, tenderness, and creative destiny because I am woman."

    @Mary E Petty: As a feminist myself, I support your decision to do so. That is what the movement is about: allowing women to be in charge of their own life choices.

  • 21MOM Keaau, HI
    July 30, 2014 10:55 p.m.

    Respect cannot be forced. Respect can only be earned by respectful individuals living respectful lives. It is the same for men or women, blacks or whites, American or non-American.

  • There You Go Again Saint George, UT
    July 30, 2014 10:40 p.m.

    "...Wow. History lessons in order here - it was the Republican party that was the anti-slavery movement...".

    And today, where are the offspring of those Democrats who were pro-slavery?

    They make-up the rabid base of the Republican Party.

    President Reagan welcomed them with open arms as part and parcel of his Southern Strategy.

  • KWL Bountiful, UT
    July 30, 2014 10:20 p.m.

    Feminism seems to be trapped in a time warp and is still fighting battles that were won in the 60's and 70's. Worse, it often creates caricatures that weren't true even in the day. I remember when NOW made it clear they would excuse sexual harassment and even sexual assault if the perpetrator was a democrat supporting their agenda. Then, they tell me I don't agree with them because I'm oppressed and can't think for myself.

    I can think just fine, thank you, and I don't think I need that kind of "help."

    Maybe if they actually listened to women when they explained what's wrong with feminism these days instead of inserting their own rationalizations for why those reasons don't count, they'd be getting somewhere. Maybe if they addressed those concerns rather than condescendingly dismissing them, they'd be able to prove they still have something meaningful to say to women like me.

  • Demisana South Jordan, UT
    July 30, 2014 10:05 p.m.

    Wow. History lessons in order here - it was the Republican party that was the anti-slavery movement, and it was Christian ministers in the forefront of the abolitionists. Harriet Beecher Stowe was the daughter and sister of ministers, deeply religious herself, and her book was hugely influential in laying the groundwork for the Civil War.

    Equal pay is a farce. When you control for education, type of job, and work history, women often make MORE than a man in the same field with the same experience and education. Fact is women often choose jobs that are more family friendly, put in fewer hours, and take time out to have and raise children.

    Nobody, including Women against Feminism, wants to put women down. But feminism is seen as anti-motherhood, anti-marriage, anti-men. I don't need their condescension of me as a happily married, stay-at-home Mormon mother of three who didn't finish college and will never have a high power career. My kids would laugh in your face if you thought I was a second class person in my home. They know Mom has every bit as much power and authority as Dad.

  • Mary E Petty Sandy, UT
    July 30, 2014 9:10 p.m.

    Feminism is not a misunderstood term. Feminism is a politically-charged label that seeks to remake women in the image of whatever the politically-correct say it is in the moment. It is an anathema to my happiness, my liberty and my life as a woman seeking to fulfill the measure of my creation, to be a daughter, sister, wife and mother. Men and women alike have inalienable rights and our God-given agency to pursue the fulfillment of our respective quest or deny who we are. I choose womanhood, in all of its majesty, tenderness, and creative destiny because I am woman.

  • Sven Morgan, UT
    July 30, 2014 8:43 p.m.

    Across the internet, Women Against Feminism has radical feminists and other liberals going apoplectic. I love it! Liberals will not tolerate uppity women who dare to question one of the pillars of liberal ideology.

    I truly believe Liberals never saw this movement coming, and it has them shocked to their cores. Many of these women who are identifying strongly with WAF are millennials. Unlike the founders of radical feminism like Gloria Steinem, most millennials don't have disdain for men, but in fact, admire men, and have males as friends. These women, primarily the millennial generation, seem to be turned off by the nastiness and disdain that radical feminists have for men. They simply don't like it.

    I'll make a prediction: This movement is going to grow exponentially. Liberal intolerance and outrage over WAF is going to give it even more visibility than it previously had. Not only will women be identifying with this movement more and more, but men also. Trust me, men are attracted to women who are attracted to them.

    The intolerance and disrespect shown to these women by the Left is illustrative of liberal hypocrisy.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 30, 2014 7:54 p.m.

    I think women are subject to the same kind of prejudice as blacks, and other subjugated groups and for the same reason. That reason being is that they represent competition in the struggle for power to control others.

    In early America it was a crime to allow blacks to be educated with the ability to read and write. In some parts of the world this policy is applied to females in the same way.

    The key to equality for any person of any group is simply education. However when you are starting from behind the starting line you may have to run a little faster than the guy with the head start.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    July 30, 2014 5:14 p.m.

    Continued from above

    The male dominated corporate elite don't want to pay for women's health benefits nor pay them equally. So they finance pastors and conservative media to exploit the fear that feminists are corrupting and destroying the nation.

    Conservative media financed by corporate elitists work together to eliminate their common enemy, feminists. Every fascist movement needs a common enemy. Whether it be immigrants and Jews in the 1930s or Muslims, homosexuals, or feminists today.

    So yes, feminists are under attack just like any and every freedom loving democracy embracing American. Our freedoms are under attack by a fascist movement disguising itself in patriotism, religion, and "free market" economics.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    July 30, 2014 5:10 p.m.

    @ 2 bites

    I don't think Palin was ever attacked by feminists. So whatever point you were trying to make is moot. I'm guessing that you're doing what you always tend to do, detail the topic at hand to wage another different (personal) debate.

    The truth is, the right has been taken over by radicals. The religious right, that has always been with us and has fought against every major cultural change (freedom for slaves, womens suffrage, civil rights, etc) and the well financed corporate elite.

    The religious right has gained power and new converts due to the fall of American manufacturing and disastrous trickle down economics. The worse we become economically the more desperate converts Beck, Rush, Ted Robertson, etc get.

    The corporate elite have bought off pastors, politicians, media outlets, and think tanks to dissolve the federal government. By dissolving the federal government they eliminate unions, safety protections, and watch dogs that would otherwise prevent their monopolies.

    To be continued...

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    July 30, 2014 4:59 p.m.

    @2bits
    They tended to have a fair bit of support for Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-TX), Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins from Maine but as long as the Republican party has views the way they do now I don't see them getting much of any support on the presidential/vice-presidential level.

    "Still think it's not about Left vs Right??"

    It's not their fault one political party agrees with almost everything they support and the other disagrees with almost everything they support.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    July 30, 2014 4:58 p.m.

    @2 bits – “Name ONE Republican woman "the movement" would support.”

    OK, I see your point and it hinges on how you define “the movement.” If by feminism you mean a movement of certain left wing political figures who vote strictly Democrat, then yes.

    However, I see feminism as much broader than that. Feminism for most people I know is the basic idea that women have the same rights as men and that societies are better off when 100% of their citizens have the opportunity to pursue (and provide us the benefits of) their talents and dreams to their full extent.

    By this definition I’d guess many Republicans are feminists and would relish the chance to support an intelligent, experienced and capable Republican woman. Condoleezza Rice comes to mind (some errors in judgment during her Bush tenure notwithstanding).

    Seriously, look up her resume and compare it to Palin’s and tell me how by any stretch of the imagination Sarah Palin was qualified to become VP.

    PS – Rice’s IQ is estimated to be between 150 and 180 (almost double Palin’s).

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    July 30, 2014 4:53 p.m.

    @2 bits "So... where was 'the movement' when a woman was trying to break the glass ceiling and running for Vice President?"

    ======

    We were backing her with Republicans fighting tooth and nail:
    Geraldine Ferraro -- Democrat 1984

    BTW --
    Sarah Palin was still Sarah Heath,
    and had just won the Miss Wasilla beauty pageant as a teenager.

  • Bendana 99352, WA
    July 30, 2014 4:40 p.m.

    "Name ONE Republican woman "the movement" would support. "

    Better question, name one republican woman that has come out against her party on the issues of equal pay, maternity leave and violence against women. When they stop voting lock step with the good ole boys, maybe we'll take a look. But for now all the GOP give's us are the Palins, Bachmanns and McMorris's.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 30, 2014 3:54 p.m.

    @nycut, Real Maverick, Tyler D, Schnee,

    So... you're saying "the movement" would have supported a REPUBLICAN woman for Vice President... if only it wasn't Sarah Palin???

    That's literally NEVER going to happen. And I think even YOU know it.

    Name ONE Republican woman "the movement" would support.

    (this should be interesting)... Still think it's not about Left vs Right??

  • Darrel Eagle Mountain, UT
    July 30, 2014 3:21 p.m.

    Feminism-The radical notion that Women are actually people too.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    July 30, 2014 3:06 p.m.

    @ 2 bites

    Palin was never attacked for being a woman.

    She was attacked for her inability to answer simple questions about her job as Vice President. She especially failed when she was destroyed in her debate despite having answers written on her hand.

    And yes, the right loved her because she fit that "conservative" mold. Hockey mom, gun shooter, intellectually lacking, but "faith" driven. Essentially, the woman version of your disastrous president, Georgie Bush.

  • nycut New York, NY
    July 30, 2014 3:04 p.m.

    @2 bits "So... where was 'the movement' when a woman was trying to break the glass ceiling and running for Vice President?"

    I think you're referring to Sarah Palin, and I think people in general largely realized that she was not woman for the job.

    Where any intelligent, accomplished, serious Republican candidates would have been already apparent and widely-known, a barely-experienced governor of a miniscule population was chosen for a completely different set of qualifications: her common-folksy, God-fearin', gun-packin', telegenic appeal that would shore up the base at a time that a "female cred" was also needed for the party to appear to be, ironically, more modern and more inclusive of female leaders.
    Polls, not ideals, drove that decision.

    Picking a pretty cheerleader to rev up support for the "war hero" was sort of an "un-feminist" thing to do, actually.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    July 30, 2014 3:00 p.m.

    @2 bits – “Obviously this isn't about Women... it's about Left vs Right”

    So feminists should support any woman regardless of any other views they may or may not have in common? I guess by that logic, we should expect feminists to be supportive of our “war on terror” unless the terrorist is a woman, then they should all break into a Helen Reddy chorus.

    “I am woman, hear me blow up…”

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    July 30, 2014 2:48 p.m.

    @2bits
    "So... where was "the moment" when a woman was trying to break the glass ceiling and running for Vice President?"

    So a frequent claim is that feminism is all about claiming women are superior to men and not about equal rights, and yet when they do something that doesn't fit that "women are superior" narrative (generally not endorse Palin) they get grief for that too?

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 30, 2014 2:14 p.m.

    @Real Maverick

    Re "I think the movement is under attack by the radical right wing which wants to put women back into their places"...

    So... where was "the moment" when a woman was trying to break the glass ceiling and running for Vice President? (Hint... attacking her and telling their people not to vote for her every step of the way).

    Obviously this isn't about Women... it's about Left vs Right, and that's the total sum of what this movement is about. Otherwise they would have supported Sarah Plain's campaign, and not attacked it.

    This is the Left... using Women for politics... plain and simple.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    July 30, 2014 1:35 p.m.

    @JCS
    "However, that is not what this so-called feminist movement is really about. "

    I find that it's best to let the people in the movement tell you what it's about, not the people who hate the movement. Ask a Tea Partier what a Progressive is or ask a Progressive what a Tea Partier stands for, I suspect both definitions would be very far from what the person in that group would subscribe to.

    "Indeed, the emphasis is not on helping women, but is on promoting activities that harm women, men, and children. "

    Yeah, like the promotion of policies whereby pregnant women don't get fired just because they got pregnant like that Hobby Lobby employee (ironic...) or the expansion of family leave for mothers after giving birth where the US is woefully behind virtually every nation in the world.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    July 30, 2014 1:33 p.m.

    I think the movement is under attack by the radical right wing which wants to put women back into their places. They were never happen with women's suffrage. They're even angrier now that women want equal pay.

    For the fascist right it's about propaganda. they want us to romanticize about the past. You know, the good old days when men went to work and women stayed in the kitchen. It's orderly, it's traditional, and it's a way to bond together the fascist right movement by focusing on a common enemy: Those evil Liberal Feminists.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    July 30, 2014 12:48 p.m.

    No reasonable person can deny that the American way of life is under direct attack by those who seek to replace it with a post constitutional, theocratic dogma.
    The modern feminist movement is a bulwark against this encroachment

  • John Charity Spring Back Home in Davis County, UT
    July 30, 2014 12:23 p.m.

    No reasonable person can deny that the American way of life is under direct attack by those who seek to replace it with European style post Christian socialist dogma. That is evidenced here.

    All reasonable persons agree that women should and must be treated with dignity and respect, and must have equal access to education and employment. However, that is not what this so-called feminist movement is really about.

    The modern feminist movement has been hijacked by those who are pushing an agenda of uncontrolled sexuality and drug use. Indeed, the emphasis is not on helping women, but is on promoting activities that harm women, men, and children.

    If we really care about women (and men and children) let us do everything we can to foster stable family relationships. That will do far more for society than anything else.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Chihuahua, 00
    July 30, 2014 10:49 a.m.

    I think the movement is being Hijacked with the goal of making Women believe that the Government is the man.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 30, 2014 10:46 a.m.

    I don't know if it's misunderstood, but it's definitely ABUSED by some (for political gain). Same goes for race, age, poverty, etc. When it's used for political gain... it's usually abuse of the actual cause for an individual politician or party's benefit. This is often the case with Feminism.

    When it's not being USED for politics... it's a good movement.