Another Fact:Fact: BYU has not done well against Big 5 competition
(including Notre Dame) over the past 30 years including the 1984 season: Winning percentage against 13 win teams = 0%. Winning percentage
against 12 win teams = 0%. Winning percentage against 11 win teams = 0%.
Winning percentage against 10 win teams = 25%. Winning percentage
against 9 win teams = 15%. Winning percentage against 8 win teams = 26%.
Winning percentage against 7 win teams = 64%. Winning percentage
against 6 win teams = 50%. Winning percentage against 5 win teams = 50%.
So BYU is getting most of their wins- against average to poor
competition. Reality is BYU is a better than good football team but far from
great or elite. The soft schedule leads to glossy win/loss records, stats and
National Rankings but the truth is far from that. The 1984 team
deserved the National Championship based on the rules in place but that
doesn't mean they were even close to being one of the best teams that year
based on SOS etc.
I don't have a dog in the fight as I didn't attend either school but
here are some facts:Fact: The Cougars finished the season undefeated
and were the consensus national champions, but their strength of schedule was
weak and many feel that Washington was the real champion that year. BYU played only one opponent that appeared in a bowl game that season, and
none of their opponents finished in the top 20 of the postseason rankings.
Washington, on the other hand, went 11-1 and defeated No. 2 Oklahoma in the
Uteology"Actually, 21 of the 47 rating entities, more than any
other college, and one more thane BYU, ranked Florida #1."Most
of those other "rating entities" were single entities or computers that
are incapable of seeing the big picture.There's a reason
computers will never be used as the sole determinant in choosing teams for the
NCAA tournament or the major college football playoffs.All you have
to do is review what happened in 2003 to understand why.Florida was
on probation and didn't even play in a bowl.Not only that,
Florida lost to Miami 20-32, the same Miami team that was beaten by Michigan
14-22, the same Michigan team that BYU beat 24-17 in the National Championship
@talkinsports@Uteology: "Research, see AP polls 1984"Research also confirms that BYU was the best team in the country in
1984.See AP and Coaches polls, as well as national championship
selections by every other major national championship selecting organization.---------------Actually, 21 of the 47 rating entities, more
than any other college, and one more thane BYU, ranked Florida #1.But you are right the main entities did rank BYU #1: AP, FWAA, NFF, USA/CNN,
AZUTE1The fundamental flaw in your whole convoluted argument is
this:The poll voters had over a month after the regular season ended
to reconsider their "colossal error", yet after over a month of
carefully scrutinizing all of the legitimate contenders, the AP writers and
Coaches, along with three other NCAA-recognized major selecting organizations,
ALL chose BYU as the consensus 1984 National Champion.NCAA FBS
Football Championship HistoryYEAR / CHAMPION / SELECTING ORGANIZATION1985 Oklahoma AP, FWAA, NFF, USA/CNN, UPI1984 Brigham Young AP, FWAA,
NFF, USA/CNN, UPI1983 Miami (Fla.) AP, FWAA, NFF, USA/CNN, UPINotice any difference between the organizations that selected BYU national
champion, and those that selected Miami and Oklahoma?Nope!That's because there isn't any difference.Exact same
organizations; probably the exact same voters.
AZUTE1By any day's standards, the Utes can only sulk that the
closest they'll ever get to a Crystal Football National Championship Trophy
is the one sitting in BYU's Hall of Fame.
UfanActually, what occurred in 1984 is these human voters committed
a colossal error by ranking Pitt as high as they did so when byu barely beat
them they vaulted up in the rankings [upon starting the season unranked] because
everybody believed Pitt was something they weren't. When OU hit town a
couple of weeks later and curb-stomped [utterly destroyed] Pitt on their
homefield, everybody saw Pitt for what they were, a terrible team, and by then
it was too late to reverse their second error of ranking byu so high, that is if
these voters wanted to maintain a modicum of integrity. byu's drastic rise
in the polls was a domino-effect, rooted in one enormously collosal error
originated in Pitt's preseason ranking.By today's standard
"there's no question we wouldn't have been #1. There would have
been four teams higher than us in the polls." -Robbie Bosco
@Ufan"The point that's completely lost on you is SOS
doesn't determine how good a team is, it only determines how rigorously a
team was tested."Outstanding point - Well done. An
excellent example of that is the UNLV basketball team that won the NCAA
championship in 1990. I am sure that they had one of the weakest schedules in
the country because they played in the Big West Conference. They even lost a
game to New Mexico State. When it counted they won every game that mattered.
Being in the ACC, Big 12 or SEC would not have made that championship any more
Fact CheckerDo you actually ever comment with "Facts". Your
exaggerated posts lead me to believe otherwise. To All,I
think we have made some real progress today. Now I'm really done. Everyone
have a good evening and a great weekend. Peace Out!
Spokane Ute"Really? I can't change it?...and all along I
thought I could!"Your five hundred twenty-five thousand six
hundred comments on this one blog would seem to suggest so.
UfanRats! I really thought I had you fooled. I guess my "thinly
vieled attempt didn't work. Again, thanks for enlightening me. I feel
better. Do you?
@ Deep BlueReally? I can't change it?...and all along I thought
I could! Thanks for enlightening me. You're the best. I don't need a
"chill pill" now. Maybe I will come across Biff's almanac when
I'm hanging with the Professor!Too Funny!
Spokane UteThe point that's completely lost on you is SOS
doesn't determine how good a team is, it only determines how rigorously a
team was tested.You can postulate all of the biased assumptions you
want, but it will never change the fact that the most knowledgeable college
football experts of the day carefully evaluated the strengths and weaknesses of
every major contender, yet after over a month of careful scrutiny, the majority
of them selected BYU as the most deserving team to be selected 1984 national
champion.Who cares whether BYU 1984 was the most formidable or the
weakest national champion of all time. BYU fans don't have to
"admit" anything, because it's impossible to prove.Your
continued attempts to marginalize BYU's championship are nothing more than
a thinly veiled attempt to claim that BYU didn't deserve the championship.
You're not fooling anybody.
Gotta luv all of these football experts on the hill who claim to know more than
the experts in 1984 and to be such amazing soothsayers that they know exactly
how the selection committee will vote in choosing future playoff teams.The truth is, these supposed experts don't have a clue how the selection
committee will vote, nor the exact criteria each one will use, when they close
the doors and are forced to choose between 5 or 6 equally viable candidates.
@ Riverton CougarI chaleenge you to find one post in which someone
said "it was BYU's fault". Of course it wasn't, it was a broke
system. That doesn't change the fact that BYU played one of, if not the,
weakest schedule of any National Champion in the last 50 years; and the weakest
bowl opponent (6-6) in the last 50 years to claim that title. I don't
understand how those facts are so hard to accept and are even debatable.
Regardless of those facts; BYU won, and will always be the 1984 college football
National Champs. I have no problem admitting that; I just can't understand
why others can't admit that they played the weakest opponents to achieve
Spokane Ute"This seems to really bother you."You
seem to be projecting your own feelings of inadequacy onto other bloggers. BYU's 1984 National Championship is just as legitimate as any other
national championship ever won.Take a chill pill and get over it.
There's nothing you can do to change it.
FactcheckerAt least get your facts straight as opposed to falsely
accusing someone. I never said I was more knowledgable than the sources you
referenced. When I was wrong, I stated so by saying I stand corrected. I, and
other individuals, you claim as "arrogant" are merely using statistics
and facts regarding BYU's NC season in 1984. This seems to really bother
you. It's nothing more than a spirited debate. Your frustration and false
accusations are the only thing I see as close to being "comical".
@Marked it Down: "How do you know that Air Force wasn't the 20th or
even 15th best team in the country in 1984?"@Uteology:
"Research, see AP polls 1984"Research also confirms that BYU
was the best team in the country in 1984.See AP and Coaches polls,
as well as national championship selections by every other major national
championship selecting organization.
"I wonder if any other fan base is so in denial with trying to justify a
national championship in which they played the weakest schedule and bowl
opponent of any National Champion?Nope, there's only one that
has too."They don't need to justify the national
championship. In the last 30 years there has not been nearly enough evidence to
suggest that BYU was not the best team in the nation that year.Ute
fans can be so hypocritical sometimes. In 2004 they were upset that the
pollsters didn't rank them higher and the pollsters claimed it was because
of Utah's SOS. Same in 2008. The pollsters take SOS into account, as Ute
fans learned in 2004 and 2008. But when discussing BYU's 1984 championship,
they say "but when you take SOS into account, they are not
deserving!".Bottom line: in 1984 BYU won all their games. It is
not their fault that their opponents (like Miami) didn't do better.
It's not their fault that Washington refused to play them. What BYU did was
prove that they were the best team in 1984. That's who is supposed to get
the national championship.
FACTchequerSalt Lake City, UTtwoferYou're
only kidding yourself if you think an undefeated BYU team that beat Nebraska in
Lincoln, Boise State at home, UCLA in the Rose Bowl, and Michigan in the Big
House (next season's schedule), could be easily dismissed as
"unworthy" of a playoff berth.Starting September with that
many quality wins, all nationally broadcast, would easily boost BYU into the AP
Top 10 regardless of how many "wagons" the P5s had circled.------------You have a better chance of being in the Big 12 next
year than beating 4 ranked teams in one year and getting a playoff berth. BYU hasn't beat a SINGLE P5 final ranked team since 1996,
they've only beat 3 ranked teams since then (#22 TCU 2006, #18 Utah 2009,
#18 Utah State 2011).You are assuming those teams would all be good,
ranked teams which has never happened. Last year only UCLA was ranked and Boise
State is hardly a quality win if they're not in the top 10.
@Marked it Down: "How do you know that Air Force wasn't the 20th or
even 15th best team in the country in 1984?"Research, see AP
polls 1984 under others receiving votes:West Virginia 109, Georgia 67,
Army 44, Air Force 26, Notre Dame 26, UNLV 17, TCU 9, Arkansas 8, Rutgers 7,
Wisconsin 7, Texas 5, Purdue 4, Fullerton State (CA) 1 @Uteanymous:
"Utah's "heyday" was 2004 and 2008, period."Is
that why Utah was ranked #10 last decade (2000-2009) by CBS Sports (BYU was
ranked #27)? “BYU’s history from the Cotton Bowl victory
forward has been very pedestrian; no undefeated seasons, no BCS bowl games and
most importantly no BCS Bowl game wins. The fact is this BYU’s
football program has been just speed bump albeit higher than let’s say
SDSU or UNLV in the road for the real power programs in the MWC; TCU and Utah...
BYU might want to crawl before it walks so here is what they may want to
concentrate on doing first, how about beating or staying within two scores of
TCU, but I digress." --- Source: BYU is sealing itself for a
@ deductive reasoningI know that SOS will be a factor that the
selection committee will consider, those are typically done by computers. But I
agree, computer polls may not be a significant factor.I also agree
about the 4-team playoff being short lived. Frankly, I hope it is. An 8-team
playoff would/will be awesome. Plus it gives everyone, mid-majors included, a
better chance to prove who is number one on the field.
Two For Flinching"Still, it would not be surprising to see a
2-loss conf. champion in the top 4, especially in the computer polls."I haven't seen anything about the selection committee using
computer polls to determine the Top 4 teams.In fact, if computer
rankings were the sole determinant, we wouldn't even need a selection
committee.Frankly, the 4-team playoff is bound to have a extremely
short life span, before the playoffs are expanded to 8 teams.How
many years do you think Big 12 or PAC 12 or ACC fans will tolerate seeing their
conference champion relegated to also-ran status, before fans will be screaming
for the playoffs to be expanded? As soon as the conferences see the television
gold mine generated by the playoffs, they'll follow the money,
guaranteed.The bowls, including the major bowls, are doomed to
become the football equivalent of the NIT, a fun little reward for teams that
aren't good enough to be invited to the big dance.
@ Snack PACPoint taken. Still, it would not be surprising to see a
2-loss conf. champion in the top 4, especially in the computer polls.
Two For FlinchingWhat makes you think there will be 3 or 4
undefeated or one-loss P5 conference champions?In 2013, there was
only 1 undefeated and 1 one-loss P5 teamIn 2012, 1 undefeated, 3
one-loss, including Notre DameIn 2011, 0 undefeated, 3 one-lossIn the last 5 seasons, the PAC 12 has only had two seasons in which the
team with the best record finished with less than 2 losses2009 -
Oregon 10-32010 - Oregon 12-1, Stanford 12-12011 - Oregon 12-22012 - Oregon 12-12013 - Oregon 11-2It's just as likely
that at least two of the P5 conference champions will have at least 2 losses.
@ FACTchequerAny undefeated or one-loss conference champion from a
P5 conference will have just as many (and probably more) quality wins. Like I
said, BYU might be worthy, but others will be more worthy.Also,
counting Boise St. as a marquee win is silly. That program is fading fast.
Over time BYU is probably on average about ~35th in the country. Utah is just
about the same. Really, for a couple programs in the middle of fly-over America
that most see the Beehive State as, both are doing pretty well. I think both
deserve respect for having accomplished big things coming from small places.
twoferYou're only kidding yourself if you think an undefeated
BYU team that beat Nebraska in Lincoln, Boise State at home, UCLA in the Rose
Bowl, and Michigan in the Big House (next season's schedule), could be
easily dismissed as "unworthy" of a playoff berth.Starting
September with that many quality wins, all nationally broadcast, would easily
boost BYU into the AP Top 10 regardless of how many "wagons" the P5s had
Spokane UteAre you honestly comparing Utah's football program
to Stanford and Alabama?btw, two words: reading comprehensionThat wasn't Snack PAC's point at all.His point was
this: Either the rankings are valid for all ranked teams, or
they're not valid for any ranked teams.If they're valid
for Utah's opponents, they're just as valid for BYU's
opponents.If they're not valid, why do Utah fans place so much
emphasis on whether an opponent is ranked, or not?------------------------The arrogance of a few jealous Utah fans
in thinking they're more knowledgeable than all of the AP, FWAA, NFF,
USA/CNN, and UPI members who selected BYU the 1984 consensus major college
football national champion is really quite comical.
@ phantombladeI disagree. The P5 conferences are clearly circling
the wagons. An undefeated BYU won't get respect in the polls, and the
selection committee will cite that, as well as SOS for reasons of exclusion.
Also, BYU may be worthy, but the selection committee will argue that teams who
were selected ahead of BYU were "more" worthy based on total body of
work. That's would be a hard case for BYU to win in court.
UteologyThanks for your knowledge and common sense posts. It's
refreshing and spot on!
Snack PacAre you honestly comparing Air Force (1984) to Stanford
(2013) and Alabama (2008)? Oh my!I wonder if any other fan base is
so in denial with trying to justify a national championship in which they played
the weakest schedule and bowl opponent of any National Champion?Nope, there's only one that has too.
I wonder if any other fanbase is so obsessed with trying to discredit a
consensus national championship that was legitimately awarded by every major
selecting organization 30 years ago?
UteologyHow do you know that Air Force wasn't the 20th or even
15th best team in the country in 1984?Just because they finished #24
in the Final AP poll doesn't mean they weren't a much better team.Oh wait, they weren't technically "ranked" be cause the AP
only ranked the Top 20 in 1984 and the rankings are infallible:BYU
1984: #1 AP, #1 CoachesIt's funny how the rankings are soooo
infallible to Utah fans, except when it's BYU's rankings that are
Uteology"...like digging up 1984 and national awards from WAC
days?"Don't kid yourself. The ONLY reason Utah fans
don't talk about all of Utah's accomplishments from the "WAC
days", is because Utah has no accomplishments from the WAC days.Utah's "heyday" was 2004 and 2008, period.
Two For Flinching"The selection committee is run by the P5
conferences. It's naive to think they are going to block out two of their
conf. champions to make room for a mid-major who didn't play at least 9 P5
teams."It's naive to assume that the selection committee
would risk not inviting an obviously worthy BYU.The eyes of the
courts and congress are watching.The last thing the NCAA needs at
this point is a class action restraint of trade lawsuit.Don't
forget, there are plenty of "mid-major" schools who would be more than
happy to join BYU in such a lawsuit.If you think that's just an
idle threat, you're the one who's being naive.
PAC man: "It's funny how jealous Utah fans like to mix and match eras
in order to feel good about themselves."SO true, like digging up
1984 and national awards from WAC days? Oh wait, that's your fan-base. My
bad.PAC man: "As for your question, the answer is dozens of
teams have won a national championship without beating a single ranked
team."Nope, since the inception of the AP poll only ONE team and
that was the 1984 BYU team.
@UteologyYou conviently forgot to mention that BYU played 3 of the
top ten teams from the previous season in their first games in 1985. Here were
the results (1984 rankings included):#1 BYU 28 #5 Boston College
14#1 BYU 24 #9 UCLA 27#1 BYU 31 #2 Washington 3----------Here are their 1985 records:Boston College
4-8UCLA 9-2-1Washington 7-5So you beat one decent
Washington team and then lost to the WORST team in the nation 1-10 UTEP. That
proves BYU was deserving of the 1984 NC?
Spokane Ute"I wonder if any other National Champ can claim the
NC without beating a single ranked team?"Here's the problem
with your analysis.Utah fans brag constantly every time Utah beats a
"ranked" team (see Stanford in 2013, or every "ranked" team Utah
beat in 2008), implying that Utah beat one of the Top 10 or Top 25 best teams in
the country - no argument there.The inconsistency comes when you
label a team that finished #24 in the final 1984 AP poll a "nobody".The inconsistency also comes when you claim that Utah's rankings
and the rankings of Utah's opponents are "facts", in other words,
immutable, but then aren't willing to accept BYU's rankings or the
rankings of BYU's opponents with the same degree of certainty.BYU finished #1 in both the AP and Coaches polls in 1984.BYU's ranking is just as valid as Washington's #2 ranking or
Florida's #3 ranking.The exact same poll voters ranked all
three teams. BYU did not force any voter to vote for BYU. So why are you trying
so desperately to minimize BYU's ranking?
@ TrueBlueThe selection committee is run by the P5 conferences.
It's naive to think they are going to block out two of their conf.
champions to make room for a mid-major who didn't play at least 9 P5 teams.
Fair or not, it's the reality of college football.
Spokane UteIt's funny how Air Force(8-4), which finished #24 in
the Final AP poll, is labeled a "nobody" by you, yet Utah fans have been
beating their chests for years for beating Pittsburgh(8-4), which finished #25
in the Final AP poll, in the Fiesta Bowl.The inconsistency of your
"labels" proves that your critique is nothing but a bunch of jealous
Spokane Ute"I wonder if any other National Champ can claim the
NC without beating a single ranked team?"It's funny how
jealous Utah fans like to mix and match eras in order to feel good about
themselves.The only reason Air Force wasn't "ranked" is
because the AP only ranked the Top 20 in 1984, so it was actually much harder
for Air Force to be ranked in 1984, than it was for Pittsburgh to be ranked in
2004.As for your question, the answer is dozens of teams have won a
national championship without beating a single ranked team. As has been stated
previously, 48 teams have won a national championship without even playing in a
bowl, as recently as Oklahoma, in 1974, only ten years before BYU's
national championship.Bottom line: The majority of AP
sportswriters and Coaches voting in the polls were convinced that BYU was the
most deserving team to be selected 1984 national champion, and that's all
that really matters.Your frantic attempt to minimize BYU's
accomplishment is nothing but a lot of jealous envy that your program has never
come close to matching BYU's feat.
PAC Man,My mistake, I stand corrected. So their best win was against
8-4 Air Force. I wonder if any other National Champ can say that? I wonder if
any other National Champ can claim the NC without beating a single ranked team?
My guess is no, unless you go back to the age of leather helmets. I would
certainly revisit the subject if you can name any team, to the contrary. Why
didn't you respond to my "fact" regarding 6-6 Michigan? Oh well, I
rest my case. It wasn't BYUs fault but going undefeated by playing nobody
is exactly what they did. Congrats!
Spokane UteYou're already proven how unreliable your
"facts" are.Spokane Ute: "The only team they beat with a
winning record was Air Force; which is the only ranked team they beat if you
carry the poll out to 25 teams."backpacn: “In 1984, BYU
beat Tulsa(6-5) 38-15 at home, and Hawaii(7-4) 18-13, Air Force(8-4) 30-25, and
Utah(6-5-1) 24-14, all on the road.”
LOL the envy of Ute fans...!! Spin Spin Spin!!The fact is, nobody
forced the AP and UPI/Coaches to vote for BYU. There have been plenty of split
national champs throughout history, especially recent history - which was the
main cause of the Bowl Alliance/BCS system. Regarding @Uteology,
maybe your googling skills could also lead you to the fact the 9-1-1 Florida
Gators were on PROBATION that year, their Head Coach was fired, their SEC title
vacated, and they did NOT play in a Bowl Game. Even then the voters could have
made them #1, but Florida finished #3 AP and #7 Coaches. And that is why
computers don't determine Champions.
So when you have a position, and back it up with statistics and facts it's
labeled as "BYU bashing"? I would say the same thing, regardless of the
school. The fact of the matter is that only BYU can claim the NC with the
weakest schedule and weakest bowl opponent. If I clarify by stating in the last
50 years does that help? It wasn't there fault, but it's a fact and
that's the way it played out. Now some are going back to 1900 to counter my
position/claim. Good grief! Everyone has got excited and angry, yet no one has
provided another National Champion to counter my claim. Why not? Because there
isn't one. The subject has grown old and tiresome. We can simply agree to
disagee. This season needs to start already. Everyone keep the forum in
perspective, respect others opinion (my self included), and have a good day
twofer"If BYU goes undefeated, they won't have access to
the playoffs."Says who?The selection committee is
going to invite the top 4 teams; what makes you so certain that an undefeated or
even one loss BYU couldn't be one of the top 4 teams?
2fer"Also, IF Utah wins the PAC-12 they will have access to the
playoffs."Possibly.With 5 power conferences, plus
Notre Dame, plus possibly two teams from the SEC, plus possibly a mid-major,
it's a given, that one or two P5 champions will be left out of the playoffs
every season - even IF the Utes win the PAC 12, they could still be left on the
outside looking in at the playoffs.
@ No playoff for UMissing a bowl game for two seasons doesn't
mean a team won't be able to qualify for prestigious bowls in the future.
How many years did UW miss bowls before they finally put it together? Their
program is looking solid right now. Utah's past is not a prophecy for the
future.Also, IF Utah wins the PAC-12 they will have access to the
playoffs. If BYU goes undefeated, they won't have access to the playoffs.
That is the bottom line.
By the way, this was a great article... Thanks.
Ask any Sports Editor east of the Mississippi who is the more storied Football
program out of Utah (in fact out of the Mountain Region) and 90% will say BYU...
Whether the uteville fans want to admit that or not it doesn't
matter...History speaks for itself...The utes think that they are a
big bad force in college football because of the conference that they belong to
(and won't even admit that they were a very weak alternative to their
Conference's real desires)... BYU however, knows and understands that it
isn't what your Conference Partners do that makes you formidable or great,
it's what your own team does and what your own team accomplishes..
Spokane UteTo illustrate just how bogus all of your BYU bashing has
been, from 1900 to 1974, there were 48 college football national champions that
not only didn't play a team better than 6-6 in a bowl, they didn't
even play in a bowl.Those championship teams included Oklahoma,
Notre Dame, Auburn, UCLA, Michigan State, Michigan, Ohio State, Minnesota,
Pittsburgh and USC.Get back to us when you have a more convincing
spokane ute"That's an awesome list of National
Champions."It is!Unfortunately for you, try as you
might, you'll never be able to erase BYU from that list, nor will you ever
be able to find a similar list from a major source that includes Utah.Now tell us about your amazing 1944 NCAA championship season in which you only
beat TWO college teams - Idaho State and Colorado College - during the entire
Spokane Ute"The only team they beat with a winning record was
Air Force; which is the only ranked team they beat if you carry the poll out to
25 teams."Obviously, you need a little help with your math
skills:In 1984, BYU beat Tulsa(6-5) 38-15 at home, and Hawaii(7-4)
18-13, Air Force(8-4) 30-25, and Utah(6-5-1) 24-14 all on the road.1
+ 1 + 1 + 1 = 4 regular season opponents with winning records, including Top 25
Air Force and arch-rival Utah, that BYU beat in 1984.By comparison,
Utah only beat 3 regular seasons opponents with winning records in 2004, none
with better than a 7-5 record.I hope that helps to clear up your
Spokane UteLosing four in a row, simply means that Utah got lucky in
winning 3 of 3 extremely close games.Overall, 9 straight bowl games
versus 2 straight bowl less, losing seasons, says that, just like the 80's,
BYU has once again become Utah's bowl game.
Spokane Ute"because no other National Champion beat one team
with a winning record to get to the title game."You obviously
don't even know "the facts" because BYU beat more than one team
with a winning record, in fact, BYU beat more regular season opponents with
winning records in 1984 than Utah beat in 2004.You'll notice
from the list, that there wasn't a single caveat added to the list for
1984, simply:The Definitive List of Actual College Football National
Champions1984: BYU.The AP, Coaches, and NCAA lists are
similar - no asterisks, no qualifiers, justMajor College Football
National Champions1984: BYU.We know that it hurts and
causes a great deal of angst on the hill, but BYU's national championship
was just as legitimate as any national championship won before or since, and is
so recognized by all of the official major college football organizations.
@Talkin SportsThat's an awesome list of National Champions. Can
you pick out the only one from the list, that only beat one team with a winning
record, didn't beat a single ranked team, and beat a team with 5 loses, yes
5 loses, going into the bowl game? Take your time; I know it's a tough one.
Talkin sports, but not answering questions.You seem to be getting
upset. How would I know? because no other National Champion beat one team with a
winning record to get to the title game. For the 1,000th time; name another. The
only team they beat with a winning record was Air Force; which is the only
ranked team they beat if you carry the poll out to 25 teams. Back then they only
ranked the top 20. Therfore, they didn't beat a ranked team; thanks for the
clarification. Again,I continue for you to name another team that beat a 6-6
team to win the NC? It looks like you are trying to go back before bowls were
played, yet you still haven't answered my questions. Don't get all
bent out of shape; take a deep breath and answer the questions.Rose
BowlYou can call it angst, in my mind it's merely a debate in
which I back up my position with stats and facts. ScottSo what does that say for BYU losing 4 in a row to Utah? Double laughable?
steamroller"supposed" national championship?There isn't an official major list anywhere - AP, Coaches, NCAA - that
doesn't list BYU as THE 1984 National Champion.Feel free to
drop by BYU's Legacy Hall of Fame anytime to see firsthand the Crystall
Football National Championship Trophy, emblamatic of major college
football's highest achievement.Then take a trip up to SLC and
peruse Utah's hall of fame closet for a similar trophy. Prepare
to be disappointed.
SpokaneUteThe Utes have been sitting at the kiddie table since they
the moved to the PAC, and from the way things are trending, 4-5, 3-6, 2-7,
it's crystal clear to anyone not wearing crimson goggles, that the kiddie
table is being pushed farther and farther away from the big kids' table.Face it, the only reason the Utes were invited to the PAC was to provide
a convenient punching bag for the big kids of the conference so they could have
a championship game at the end of the season.The thought that
anybody actually expected U to be competitive is laughable.
2fer"Utah does have infinitely better access to the college
football playoff..."Don't kid yourself.A team
that can't even qualify for a bowl, has absolutely no chance at being
invited to the playoffs.
Spokane Ute"It must be so painful to know, that even when Utah
is playing poorly. No bowl game the last 2 years, powerful BYU still can't
beat them."Disappointing, but hardly painful.What's really painful, as clearly demonstrated by the angst we constantly
see on these blogs, is Utah fans, after pulling out another lucky win over BYU,
sitting at home on the couch during bowl week, watching BYU play in their 9th
straight bowl game, a feat that matches Utah's longest bowl streak ever,
and a bowl streak that will soon be surpassed, for the 2nd time, by BYU in 2014.
Look it up:The Definitive List of Actual - no you know what -
College Football National Champions1989: Miami.1988: Notre
Dame.1987: Miami.1986: Penn State.1985: Oklahoma.1984:
BYU.1983: Miami. Nebraska was the wire-to-wire No. 1 until the final
minute of the Orange Bowl, when the Huskers failed on a two-point conversion and
lost to Miami 31-30.1982: Penn State. Nebraska finished with an identical
11-1 record but lost the head-to-head in September.1981: Clemson.1980: Georgia.--------------Spokane Ute"Weakest Regular season every[sic] played by a National ChampionHow would you know? You don't even know how many opponents in
the Top 25 or with winning records that BYU played.As far a bowls
go, do you know how many national champions never played in a bowl?Did you know that the final polls used to be taken before any bowls were
played?Did you know that Notre Dame didn't even accept bowl
invitations for years?Didn't think so.
@ BlutoP5 = in. Mid-majors = out. College football is about to see
a major shift, and being outside the P5 is not where you want to be. I'm
not sure why you are arguing this, because you know it's true.Utah does have infinitely better access to the college football playoff,
simply because they have access to the college football playoff. Mid-majors
don't have a prayer of being accepted. Again, you know this is true, so
why are you arguing this point?
KilarnyYou are right, let's stary current. It must be so
painful to know, that even when Utah is playing poorly. No bowl game the last 2
years, powerful BYU still can't beat them. Let's go back to last year;
shall we? Who won on the field? Who won in the Sagarin rankings? Do tell. Snack PacNow 7 and 11 are almost identical? That's a
good one. Where were the games played? You seem to have left out that little tid
Sorry snack guy, no one is going to move the the kiddie table for byU. Why in
the world would such a "quality" program not be invited to a Power5
conference and already be locked into the Beach Blanket Bingo Bowl? Maybe you
should slap a WCC window sticker on your mini-Van. That will help ease the pain.
Spokane Ute"What in the world does how good teams were the
previous year, have to do with the quality of teams the current year?"You and your fellow Ute friends might ask yourselves a similar
question:What in the world does how good teams were 5 or 10 years
ago (see 2004 and 2008) have to do with the relevance of teams in the current
year?The inconsistency of how things are evaluated on the hill is
laughable.Why don't you slip into your time machine and travel
back to the first time Utah was relevant, like say, the first time Utah won a
conference championship and was ranked in the final AP poll?Why
not?Because it would be a very short journey back to 2004, hardly
even worth the trip.
Spoken Ute"Also, why in the world would Washington go to a low,
low tier bowl to play a team that quite frankly hadn't beaten
anyone..."Because the national championship always goes through
the team that finishes #1 in both regular season polls.Instead of
whining about not winning the national championship, Washington could have won
it on the field simply by beat the #1-ranked team.It's
hilarious that jealous Utah fans continue spewing this falsehood that the
quality of BYU's athletic programs, specifically football, is preventing
BYU from joining a P5 conference, especially when we all know that Utah's
invitation to the PAC 12 had nothing to do with the quality of Utah's
athletic programs, as Utah's bottom-dwelling status in almost every PAC 12
sport has clearly proven.
AZUTE1"Unfortunately, BYU '84 differs from those other
teams in another way too: they did not play a single ranked opponent."The 8-4 Air Force team that BYU beat on the road finished #24 in the
Final AP poll, HIGHER than the only decent team Utah played in 2004, Pittsburgh,
which finished #25 in the Final AP poll.Michigan was "so
bad" that the Wolverines would have played in the Rose Bowl if they'd
beaten Ohio State in their regular season finale.Washington,
BYU's closest competitor for the 1984 national championship, only beat
Michigan 20-11, a margin of victory that was almost identical to BYU's
24-17 victory over Michigan.Michigan, btw, beat Miami 22-14, the
same Miami team that stomped Florida 32-20, one of the other NC contenders in
1984.It's funny how Utah fans like to cherry-pick stats in
order to help them sleep at night.Unfortunately for U, the AP and
Coaches poll voters, who were fully aware of all of these little happenings that
Utah fans have suddenly "discovered", still picked BYU as the #1 team in
both 1984 final polls.
What in the world does how good teams were the previous year, have to do with
the quality of teams the current year? Oh my goodness, we are really desperate
and grasping for straws now. I love it!
@Deductive ReasoningI will answer your questions, when you answer
mine. Also, why in the world would Washington go to a low, low tier bowl to play
a team that quite frankly hadn't beaten anyone; when they could play in the
Grand Daddy of them all and play top ranked Oklahoma? Why would they take a huge
cut in pay to accomodate BYU? Power conference teams weren't going to stoop
to BYU's level then, just like they won't know. That's why BYU is
the nomad of college football and won't be invited to a P5 conference. Oh
well, you can always slip into your time machine and set the dial for 30+ years
and recall that National Championship # ** .Awesome!# Weakest
Regular season every played by a National Champion.** Weakest Bowl
opponent ever played by a National Champion.
Texas Christian, Boise State, and Utah have been tearing it up over the last
decade, but in 1984 Brigham Young did something none of those other "Little
Big" teams have even gotten a legitimate shot at: they finished #1.
Unfortunately, BYU '84 differs from those other teams in another way too:
they did not play a single ranked opponent. The only so-called "national
champion" that didn't (though Oklahoma came very close in 1956).BYU's 1984 opponents went 61-85-3, placing their schedule 96th
amongst 98 division 1A schools. And yet their performance was as weak as their
schedule. They won five games by a touchdown or less, from a 20-14 win at 3-7-1
Pitt in their opener to a 24-17 win against 6-6 Michigan in the Holiday Bowl--
by far the worst bowl opponent ever faced by a so-called "national
champion". How bad was Michigan? They finished 6th in the Big Ten, and the
Big Ten was a horrid 12-15 against nonconference opponents and 1-5 in bowl
games. The only conference in the country that was as bad as the Big 10 was the
@UteologySince it looks like you looked up the article I thought it
must be an oversight that you forgot this piece as well."The
Cougars have to be to beat some of the teams they have beaten in their streak.
True, most of their victims have been their fellow Western Athletic Conference
members, but they also have beaten Pitt and Baylor and, in the Holiday Bowl last
season, Michigan.And how about the team that they didn't get
the chance to beat? Oklahoma, which lost out to BYU in the voting for the
national championship last season, turned down the opportunity to play them in
the Kickoff opener this season."Source: Los Angeles Times -
September 7, 1985
@UteologyYou conviently forgot to mention that BYU played 3 of the
top ten teams from the previous season in their first games in 1985. Here were
the results (1984 rankings included):#1 BYU 28 #5 Boston College
14#1 BYU 24 #9 UCLA 27#1 BYU 31 #2 Washington 3Did you
catch that last score? That was the team that should have been the National
Champions according to some BYU detractors. The so-called controversy pretty
much ended after that game.As one Seattle paper put it in their
article after the game: The odds of those Washington Football players who
didn't believe that BYU was a legimate National Champion but now do is
31:3Bottom Line: BYU has a national championship. They will always
have a national championship. Nothing will ever take that crystal trophy away
Spokane Ute"usually when some one types in all Caps, that a sure
sign of getting flustered."Actually, one or two words typed in
all Caps, is usually nothing more than using one of the few forms of visual
emphasis available in this forum (since bold and italics is verboten).----------------As for your weak BYU winning a national
championship "by default" argument, the same could be said of every
national championship ever won. Every season, teams are slowly eliminated from
the national championship race until only a handful of legitimate contenders
remain. Oklahoma, Nebraska, Washington and Florida all lost to multiple loss
teams, leaving only BYU undefeated.How many teams outside of the ACC
did Florida State beat last season?How many teams outside of the SEC
did Alabama beat in 2012?The truth is, every national championship
contender, regardless of conference affiliation, relies on "other" teams
to eliminate their competitors from the race.Washington didn't
"deserve" that national championship in 1984, because the Huskies chose
not to play the #1-ranked team, thus, willfully avoiding the #1 obstacle
standing in their way of winning a national championship.
UteologyWinning an AP national championship is very simple, all you
have to do is convince the majority of AP voters that you are the most deserving
team to be selected national champion.Despite all of your jealous
spin, BYU did that in 1984, with 38 AP sportswriters voting BYU #1. BYU received
more #1 votes than Washington and Florida COMBINED!btw, you're
extremely naive if you think that the AP voters didn't consider records,
SOS, bowl opponents, and all of the other factors that you and your jealous hill
friends have cited.
At Deep BlueNot upset at all, usually when some one types in all
Caps, that a sure sign of getting flustered. My opinion will always remain that
BYU won the NC by default. I base this on the facts that they played the weakest
regular season schedule, and the weakest bowl opponent of any NC. I'm not
the only one with this opinion. Utah fan or not, the numbers speak for them
self. It's not their fault but it's a fact. Also, it will never, ever
happen again. Changes were made that future NC's would have to earn the
title. Now it's off to the Beach Blanket bowl whether they win 6, 8 or 11
games. How demoralizing.
The fundamental flaw in your disjointed, convoluted argument is this:Florida was INELIGIBLE to even play in a bowl, so the Gators would have been
excluded from the BCS championship game, if one had existed in 1984.Florida finished a distant 3rd in the final 1984 AP poll, behind #1 BYU and #2
2ferBYU is on the outside looking in at what? A possible playoff
berth?Here's a clue. A perennial bottom feeding P5 like Utah is
no closer to a playoff berth than any non-P5.What chance, really, do
you think a perennially unranked program like Utah has of ever finishing in the
Top 4? You're not even capable of finishing with a winning record to
qualify for a bowl.
@TwoFur...Winning programs that play in "Big Boy" stadiums
on the Major Networks every week, with endless resources, are not on the outside
looking in. Your demise of BYU Football is 'greatly exaggerated".BYU's access to the 4 team playoff is unlikely, just as it is for
about 110 other D-1 programs and yet, BYU is still far more likely than Utah to
get there. Again, your Conference Crutch and Patch is irrelevant, if
"U" cannot produce on the field.Conference Doormats,
relegated to Regional TV, which consistently post losing records and cannot
secure one of 78 Bowl Game slots, are nothing more than little yappers with
false bravado. That be "U".
UteologyBottom line after all of your jealous, disjointed,
self-serving spinning:BYU was named consensus national champion by
all five major selecting organizations and has the hardware to prove it.Utah has never been named national champion by any major
organization.btw, that "awful" 1985 BYU team that was upset
by UTEP, lost 3 games by a total of 13 points, finished 11-3, won their 9th
straight conference championship, were ranked #16 in the final AP poll, and
barely lost 10-7 to 14th ranked Ohio St in the Citrus Bowl.Utah
2009, by comparison, lost 3 games by a total of 37 points, finished 3rd in the
conference with a 10-3 record, were ranked #18 in the final AP poll, and beat
unranked California(8-5) in the Poinsettia Bowl.The Utes have only
had two Top 16, 11+ win teams in their entire history.BYU had three
Top 16, 11+ win teams back-to-back-to-back in 1983 through 1985, plus three more
within a four-year span from 2006 through 2009.Even in their best
period ever, the Utes still couldn't keep pace with BYU.
@UteologyMay Peace come upon your troubled soul. It must be
terrible having BYU still living in your head, 24-7, Rent Free, after Thirty
Years.None of the polls you mentioned are recognized by anyone. Most
of them, i.e. Sporting News, consisted of "One" voter.And
btw, Florida was on probation I 1984, which made them ineligible for a Bowl Game
and recognition by the Coaches Poll. They were allowed on the ballot in
the AP Poll and still finished 3rd behind BYU and Washington.Stop
letting History haunt you so...Go fishing.Memorize this famous
prayer..."God grant me the serenity to accept the things I
cannot change (BYU's National Championship); Courage to change
the things I can (obsessing over BYU's Legacy and National Brand);and
wisdom to know the difference. Good Day.....
@ Bluto"Generational Legacy", has continued beyond
1984....."And it has gotten BYU what? The powers that be in
your program are literally begging to be included in the future of CFB.
You're on the outside looking in.
The other team refused to play. Their own fault
There are Four "Officially Sanctioned Polls" by the NCAA, to crown
College Football's National Champion..-Writers...AP-Coaches...Waterford Crystal Ball-NFF.......MacArthur Bowl-FWAA......Grantland Rice TrophyBYU was the "Unanimous
National Champion" in 1984.There are only 19 programs in D-1
football history which have been voted #1 in every "Officially Sanctioned
Poll", in the same year. See BYU. The contrived controversy of
'84, only existed in the heads of Bryant Gumbel, Barry Switzer and Jealous
Ute Fans. Those with a vote, saw things quite differently.BYU was
undefeated in 24 straight games over 2 seasons. Among those 24 wins was a
victory over Pac-10 Champ UCLA in '83, a team which, btw, defeated #1
ranked Illinois, in the '83 Rose Bowl.History will always show,
that in 1984..."Nobody Beat Anybody, That Beat BYU!Sixteen players
from that team, signed professional contracts.And contrary to what
"Envious" Ute fans may think, BYU's "Generational Legacy",
has continued beyond 1984.....Hall of Famers, Consensus
All-Americans, Heisman, Outland, O'Brian, Baugh, Walker and Maxwell
trophies as well as Super Bowl and NFL MVP's, has enhanced BYU's
Legacy and Brand. Match that...Ute Fan!
According to Florida fans: " Florida’s First “National
Title"Who was Jeff Sagarin’s 1984 “National
Champion”?The Florida Gators, that is who.And it
wasn’t only Jeff Sagarin. In 1984, the 9-1-1 Gator team was deemed to be
“National Champions” by 21 of the 47 rating entities, more than any
other college, and one more, in fact, than the “recognized”
champion, BYU.Besides Sagarin, the Massy Ratings (also currently
used by the BCS), the New York Times, the Sporting News, and 17 other entities
put the Gators number 1.So, if the current BCS was in place, we
would have likely ranked 1st in computer polls, and the AP had us 3rd that year.
@1978Here's some of the stuff you forgot to quote from the
article:"UCLA's football team does not take much pride in
the role it has played in Brigham Young's winning streak, the longest in
major college football...All of that considered, the thing that
amazes UCLA Coach Terry Donahue is that some folks still shrug off BYU as a
second-class power...BYU's games today against UCLA and next
Saturday against Washington should tell a lot, but Coach LaVell Edwards
maintains that his team has nothing to prove...Asked if it bothered
him [Edwards] to have to answer the charge constantly he said: "No, not
really. It's there. There's nothing I can do about it."Source: Bruins Try to Give BYU Unlisted NumberSeptember 07, 1985 (TRACY
DODDS - LA Times)After that article, BYU the defending national
champion went on not only lose to a good UCLA team at home but a horrible UTEP
team 16-23 which was UTEP's ONLY win of the season, THIRD over a D1 team in
@TrueBlue"Alex Smith finished #4 in the 2004 Heisman
voting:"Marc Wilson (3rd in 1979), Jim McMahon (3rd in 1981),
Steve Young (3rd in 1983), Robbie Bosco (3rd in 1984 and 1985), and Ty Detmer
(3rd in 1991, the year after he won it), all finished higher than Alex Smith.-----------Yes you proved Edwards and Chow were hall-of-fame
coaches that produced great talent. So what? Today you can't even produce
QBs good enough to play in the CFL.
@Uteanojmsy,BYU was the only undefeated team in 1984, and, BYU had
developed enough national cachet in the five years preceding 1984 to prove that
BYU's undefeated season wasn't just a fluke.-----------It was a fluke, considering TCU and Boise State also build "more
impressive" multi-year resumes under the BCS system. But neither were
ranked as high as the "one-off" 2008 Utah team.BYU 5 years
prior to 1983 #1 13-0: #13, #12, #13, UR, #7 TCU 5 years prior to 2010 #2
13-0: #11, #22, UR, #7, #6So TCU was in the top 7 two straight years
but still didn't make the NC game in 2010 at 12-0, and all that with 2010
TCU SOS #76 beat 2 ranked teams (1984 BYU SOS #96 beat no raked teams).
@FACTchequerSalt Lake City, UTUteology"They're stating a fact that the 1984 team would not have even
sniffed a national championship in the current era. Just like Utah (2004, 2008)
and TCU (2009, 2010)."A personal opinion is NOT a fact, no
matter how desperately you want it to be.--------------Actually, it is a fact not an opinion. Did you even check the fact?
Here's how to check that fact: * Take BYU's 1984 #96 SOS
* Put it into the BCS computer rankings formula If you do that
you'll find that they won't be ranked in the top 3 under the BCS
system.Just like 2003 AP/Coaches #1 USC team which was only ranked
#3 BCS with a #17 SOS, thus missing out on the BCS title game.* 1984
BYU and 2003 USC both #1 AP/Coaches polls* 2003 USC with #17 SOS ranks BCS
#3 by computers* 1984 BYU with #96 SOS ranks BCS #? by computersPlease let us know what you find.
"Name a team who has only played one team with a winnng[sic] record?"It's amazing that a fan who pretends to be such an "expert"
about BYU 1984, is so clueless about BYU's actual record.
TrueBlueSteve Young actually finished #2 in 1983, but your point is
well taken; the best of the best in Utah football history are only 2nd (or 4th)
best compared to BYU.
Uteology"Utah in 2008 finished AP #2 with 16 first place votes
(highest ranked mid-major during BCS era and since 1984)."Nice
try, but as any knowledgeable college football fan knows, the AP doesn't
award the Crystal Football National Championship Trophy. That trophy is awarded
to the team that finishes #1 in the Coaches poll, where the Utes have never
finished higher than #4.----------------------"Alex
Smith finished #4 in the 2004 Heisman voting:"Marc Wilson (3rd
in 1979), Jim McMahon (3rd in 1981), Steve Young (3rd in 1983), Robbie Bosco
(3rd in 1984 and 1985), and Ty Detmer (3rd in 1991, the year after he won it),
all finished higher than Alex Smith.
If this; if that; disputed this; disputed that. Blah blah blah.The
method of crowning a college football champ has always been deeply flawed, and
is only now becoming even close to reasonable. Yes, BYU's schedule in
'84 was lousy. Yes, things fell into place perfectly that season to open up
a gap for them to slip into the #1 spot. Yes, plenty of people don't
believe they were the best team that year. Everyone knows this. The implication
that BYU fans are oblivious to these facts is silly.To paraphrase
Bill Parcells, you are what your record (and ranking) says you are. If Utah had
been the ones to run the table in '84, Ute fans would be saying exactly the
same things Y fans have been for 30 years. Don't think the system worked?
Well, it's different now, but that title belongs to the Y.I
moved to STL in 2006, when the Cardinals won their first WS in a quarter
century. Were they the best team in the big leagues that year? No way . . they
were probably 6th or worse. Does that devalue the title? Not a bit.
Spokane UteSorry to burst your crimson bubble, but Washington LOST
to a team that finished with 3 losses and then ran away from their invitation to
play #1-ranked BYU for a chance at a national championship.Your
biased speculation doesn't prove anything.And, the only one who
seems to be getting "upset" here, is U, who can't admit that your
personal opinion is meaningless when compared to the opinions of the majority of
experts who selected BYU as the most deserving team to be named 1984 national
Spokane Ute"Name a team who has only played one team with a
winnng record?"Get back to us when you've demonstrated that
you have even the tiniest clue about BYU's 1984 schedule.BYU
played more regular season opponents with winning records in 1984, than Utah did
in 2004.That's a verifiable FACT!
In 1984 Washington beat 6 teams with a winning record. They beat Michigan, at
Michigan 20-11. They knocked off #2 Oklahoma 28-17 in their bowl game. Mean
while BYU beat one team with a winning record, beat unranked, 6-5 Michigan,
24-17 in San Diego. Yep BYU won it by default. Again, not their fault but
absolutely true. I don't know why that is so hard to accept?
Marked it downName a team who has only played one team with a winnng
record? Name a team, who won the National Championship by beating a 6-6 team.
You better fuel up your time machine because you will have to go back to the
days of leather helmets; if you can even name one then. Don't skirt the
questions, back them up with statistics and facts.DeepBlueMy discussion with fans like your self over the past few weeks lead me to that
conclusion. Never, ever answer my questions, just skirt the issue. Washington
was more deserving in 1984. They played a much tougher schedule and a top ranked
bowl opponent. Just accept the gimmie Deep Blue, no need to get all upset. BYU
would have got throttled by Ohio State or Washington that year, just like Hawaii
got thumped by Georgia a few years later.
Spokane Ute"These two facts really upset BYU fans and they will
never ever admit to them."What makes you think BYU fans are
"upset" and what makes you think they should "admit" to
anything?Did BYU fans vote on the AP and Coaches polls?Are BYU fans responsible for Washington, Oklahoma, Nebraska and Florida losing
to multiple loss teams?The truth is, BYU did more to deserve the
1984 National Championship than any other team.Unfortunately for U,
that can't be said of Utah for 2004 or 2008.
Spokane Ute"No National Champ has ever played a weaker schedule
and weaker bowl opponent. Not BYU's fault; but absolutley true."You obviously don't know much about college football history,
because there are numerous national champions from the early days of college
football history that played much weaker schedules, and many champions that
didn't even play in a bowl.Bottom line, while other contenders
were losing to multiple loss opponents, BYU managed to beat every team on their
schedule, and in the process, convinced the majority of poll voters that BYU was
more deserving of being selected national champion than any other team.I know that you're desperate for BYU fans to "apologize" for
BYU's schedule, but the truth is, BYU fans have no reason to apologize or
"admit" to anything that was out of BYU's control.If
you were really honest about the whole thing, you'd admit that Utah was
extremely lucky that they played all of their toughest regular season opponents
at home, and even then, were lucky to pull off upsets versus OSU and TCU.
1978unfair!you're not playing by Uteology's
rules that only quotes and "statistics" that support his crimson colored
view of world are allowed.
A very good team. I've been friends for several years with Kelly Smith, a
RB/WR on that team. We've had good fun ribbing each other with the rivalry
when we can, and while no one can convince me that BYU was the BEST football
team in 1984, they earned everything they achieved, so I applaud them.
No National Champ has ever played a weaker schedule and weaker bowl opponent.
Not BYU's fault; but absolutley true. These two facts really upset BYU fans
and they will never ever admit to them. The subject rally needs a rest though;
it's been discussed over, and over, and over....
Well, one thing is for sure...BYU has the Trophy and the Title and no one can
take that away from them. The ute partisans can argue all day long about a weak
schedule, a weak opponent in Michigan, and any other factor that they want to
quote but the fact remains that BYU was the ONLY undefeated team in the country
and they won the championship.It's now 2014 and BYU still has
the trophy. They still defeated every opponent in 1984, which no one else did.
Utah got robbed by not playing Auburn for the title on of their undefeated
years, but they need to understand that the utes were NOT the only undefeated
team that year. That's how the mighty BCS system worked. In fact,
recently even a team with a loss played for the national championship in that
system.My questions: Why didn't Utah rise to the occasion and
win a championship in 1984 if it was so easy? In fact, BYU had won 8 conference
titles in a row? When has Utah even approached that in their previous WAC and
MWC experience? 54-10 and 9 of 12 don't say that BYU wasn't
deserving in 1984. Live with it!
@UteologyHere is an excert from an article quoting one of those
coaches that you mentioned.All of that considered, the thing that
amazes UCLA Coach Terry Donahue is that some folks still shrug off BYU as a
second-class power.Donahue nods knowingly. "I think you have to
play BYU to appreciate them," he said. "I have a much greater
appreciation for BYU as a football team since we played them (and lost, 37-35,
at the Rose Bowl two years ago). Prior to that game, I might have fallen victim
to that attitude, to thinking that, yeah, BYU might be able to throw like that
against--whoever--but not against UCLA."Vince Dooley (coach at
Georgia) felt the same way after his team, with Herschel Walker, won in the last
seconds. He, also, thought, 'Who were those guys?' At least
that's what I heard through the grapevine. He went through the same
thing."After you play them, you realize that they are a dominant
team, physically. They are big and strong."Source: Los Angeles
Times - September 7, 1985
I don't understand why it's so hard for some to accept that a team
that finished undefeated and ranked #1 in both the AP and Coaches final regular
season polls would have been a virtual lock to be selected to play in the
national championship game, IF one had existed in 1984.BYU was the
only undefeated team; Washington lost at USC(9-3) 7-16; Oklahoma(9-2-1) lost at
Kansas(5-6) 11-28; Nebraska(10-2) lost at Syracuse(6-5) 9-17; and Florida(9-1-1)
lost to Miami(8-5) 20-32, and was ineligible to play in a bowl.btw,
that "horrible" Michigan team that jealous Utah fans like to rag on,
beat Miami 22-14 and narrowly lost to Washington 11-20.Fans like
Uteology who spout "statistics" in vacuum and cite "quotes" out
of context, without even considering the actual circumstances of 1984 are just
blowing jealous crimson-colored smoke.Regardless of schedules,
it's very clear to see that there's not a single 1984 contender who
would have been more deserving of being included in a "bcs championship"
type game, than BYU.
UteologyTry searching for: "Doc Five: College football’s
best Cinderella stories – No. 1, 1984 BYU wins national title"You'll notice that the author mentions, "Despite some critics,
BYU was selected as the consensus national champion"Not one word
about being "undeserving", in fact, the author specifically mentions
that BYU was selected consensus national champion - in other words, all of the
major selecting organizations chose BYU as their national champion.The author concludes, "As for now, it's safe to wonder if there will
ever be another Cinderella story in college football like 1984 BYU."BYU 1984: Cinderella - YES; Lucky - YES; Perfect Storm - YES; Deserved -
ABSOLUTELY!BYU was the only undefeated team in 1984, and, BYU had
developed enough national cachet in the five years preceding 1984 to prove that
BYU's undefeated season wasn't just a fluke. btw, Utah
over Alabama was No. 5 on the list - not the 2008 season, just the game.
Uteology"Try searching for: "Fixing the Final 1984 AP
College Football Poll".What makes U think that the opinion of
ONE sportswriter (who was still in grade school at the time), carries more
weight than the 38 sportswriters who evaluated every viable 1984 national
championship contender and after over a month of careful scrutiny still chose
BYU as the MOST DESERVING team to be selected 1984 National Champion?It is fun seeing the angst this subject constantly creates in our little
brothers on the hill knowing that Utah's best was only a distant second
best, in one poll, while BYU's best resulted in a consensus national
championship as selected by all five major selecting organizations of the
day.As far as Crystal Football National Championship Trophies go,
the closest the Utes will ever get to one is the trophy proudly displayed 45
miles away in BYU's Legacy Hall of Fame.
Uteology"They're stating a fact that the 1984 team would
not have even sniffed a national championship in the current era. Just like Utah
(2004, 2008) and TCU (2009, 2010)."A personal opinion is NOT a
fact, no matter how desperately you want it to be.
I've golfed with Robbie a number of times, and he is under no delusions
about the weight of the 1984 "National Championship". He and many others
in the Varsity Club agree that "we got very, very lucky" in 1984. It
isn't something we go around pounding our chests about.BYU has
looked better on paper and in the stats than we have on the field for many
years. But real football is played in the grass and the mud and the sweat and
the blood, and padding our schedules with cake-walks for decades was beyond the
control of the players and most of the coaches. But players and coaches know
full well the differences between programs where it really matters.Not only a little, but a great deal of humility is in order whenever the 1984
"Championship" comes up. Anyone who says otherwise would enjoy fantasy
football more than real football, and has more armchair lint under their arms
than real turf in their cleats.For what it's worth, go Cougs!
But let's be realistic.
Try searching for: "Fixing the Final 1984 AP College Football Poll"."In the lamest and least-watched "national championship"
bowl game of all time, 13-0 Brigham Young rallied to beat 6-6 Michigan
24-17...Texas Christian, Boise State, and Utah have been tearing it
up over the last decade, but in 1984 Brigham Young did something none of those
other "Little Big" teams have even gotten a legitimate shot at: they
finished #1. Unfortunately, BYU '84 differs from those other teams in
another way too: they did not play a single ranked opponent. The only so-called
"national champion" that didn't (though Oklahoma came very close in
1956).BYU's 1984 opponents went 61-85-3, placing their schedule
96th amongst 98 division 1A schools. And yet their performance was as weak as
their schedule. They won five games by a touchdown or less, from a 20-14 win at
3-7-1 Pitt in their opener to a 24-17 win against 6-6 Michigan in the Holiday
Bowl-- by far the worst bowl opponent ever faced by a so-called "national
@BlueHuskyUtah's two years of greatness were fun and I rooted for
them in their bowl games. But lets face it, Pitt was a no better foe than was
Michigan. And Alabama had lost a player or two and went into their bowl game
flat. -------------So did Organ State who also lost a
player or two going into their Vegas bowl come out flat? Remember that's
BYU's biggest bowl win since 1996.Pitt was ranked AP #19,
finished #25 just like your 2001 and 2008 teams, Michigan was 6-6.Utah beat 4 ranked teams in 2008. BYU hasn't beat 4 ranked teams in over
18 years (2006 #21 TCU, 2009 #18 Utah, and 2012 #18 Utah State).Try
your spin again.
@UteanymousShameful is your inability to comprehend what the SI
author and Robbie Bosco are saying.They're not mocking the 1984
title. They're stating a fact that the 1984 team would not have even
sniffed a national championship in the current era. Just like Utah (2004, 2008)
and TCU (2009, 2010).
I have respect for the bulk of Utah fans, their team and coach. I detest those
who do nothing but camp out to post anything negative they can about BYU. Living
in sarcasm and put downs is a miserable life. I also detest BYU fans who have to
show their lack of class by disrespecting Utah. Those people are not worth the
read and do nothing but stir up juvenile hate that the bulk of fans on both
sides do not agree with. I wish Utah well this year. The majority of
a Utah fans wish that the BYU v Utah game would be on the calendar late in the
year..every year. Most share the view that both schools would be better served
in the same conference. Unfortunately, money has taken over the game and it will
never be the same. It's sad and it is destroying college football. I truly wish that civility could be shown better on these boards. But I
know better. There is anonymity and that leads to classless drivel. For the rest
of us..good luck Utah, BYU, Utah State and Weber State. Represent!
Unlike most of the posters, I remember 1984 very well. I was living in Omaha and
the Huskers were in the hunt, but lost a game. Oklahoma lost a game. Washington
beat Oklahoma in the Orange Bowl for #2. Washington and others refused to come
to the Holiday Bowl to play BYU.Somebody beat everybody but BYU in
1984. Nobody beat anybody who beat BYU.Utah's two years of
greatness were fun and I rooted for them in their bowl games. But lets face it,
Pitt was a no better foe than was Michigan. And Alabama had lost a player or two
and went into their bowl game flat. That being said, those where the pinnacles
of UU history, and good for them.So while U bag on BYU successes,
remember that Utah played in the same conference all those years. If Utah is so
great, why didn't they beat BYU and gain a share of BYU's glory?As for today, Utah got one line in Plaschke's LA Times' PAC12
roundup. Something like"Utah's Whittingham is finding it difficult to
win in the Pac12." They also mentioned that UCLA had upgraded their schedule
by scheduling two with BYU.
Really, we have to go back to 1984 again!This is irresponsible
reporting, it is nothing but pot stirring can't the Deseret News find
something of value to report on or is journalism dead. come on people lets get
real that was 30 years ago! Both teams are so different now, and have done so
much since then that is just silly to keep stirring to create controversy.
nonceleb: Thanks for trying to be even-handed in your assessment. However, a
couple of your statements deserve comment: "Any unbiased and knowledgeable
follower of football knows that it was mostly a fluke." Perhaps it
would be more accurate to say that 1984 was a perfect storm of circumstances
that allowed BYU to be voted National Champions. That's not quite the same
as a fluke. As the article title indicates, the circumstances all came together
in 1984 for BYU.You also said, "BYU finally just barely beat
unrated 6-5 Michigan 17-10."Well, first of all you got the score
wrong. BYU won 24-17. Secondly, a one-touchdown victory does not necessarily
qualify as "barely" beating a team. A look at the stats for the game
reveal something very different.BYU had 32 first downs to
Michigan's 13. BYU had 112 yards rushing to 120 yards rushing for Michigan.
BYU had 371 yards passing (35 completions, 49 attempts, 3 interceptions) to
Michigan's Michigan's 82 yards (7 completions. 15 attempts, one
interception). Average gain per play: BYU 6.36, Michigan 3.16. I could go
into greater detail, but I hope the point is clear. The stats suggest that BYU
did more than just "barely" beat Michigan.
SeminolebobLOL at a supposed Florida State fan, spamming a BYU blog,
in support of the Utes.Who do you think you're fooling?
UteologyIt's laughable the little half truths you like to claim
support your crimson-colored view of reality.While a few
sportswriters and coaches disagreed with BYU's selection as 1984 national
champions, the vast majority disagreed with the dissenters and selected BYU
#1.When asked immediately after the game if BYU deserved to be #1,
Bosco replied emphatically, YES! His statement 30 years after the
fact is just his personal opinion and doesn't prove anything.As
far as BCS and AP go, you're mixing apples and oranges. The AP has
absolutely nothing to do with the BCS; in fact, the AP won't even allow the
BCS to use their poll. In 2003, the AP completely ignored the teams that
competed in the BCS championship game, and chose USC as their national champion,
proof positive, that it wasn't the BCS that prevented Utah from winning a
championship in 2008, it was Utah not being good enough to earn enough support
from the majority of AP sportswriters.The lone SI sportswriter you
quoted was even in grade school in 1984, yet you're trying to claim that
his analysis is more valid than all of the sportswriters of the day.Shameful.
nonceleb"Any unbiased and knowledgeable follower of football
knows that it was mostly a fluke."Any unbiased and knowledgeable
follower of college football knows that five Top 12 finishes in six seasons, 6
straight conference championships, a 66-9 overall record (88%), back-to-back Top
7 finishes in both the AP and Coaches polls, and a 24-game winning streak that
culminated in BYU being selected consensus 1984 major college football national
champion by all five major selecting organizations of the day, was anything but
a fluke.The truth is, BYU accomplished far more in the short stretch
of time from 1979 to 1984, than the Utes have accomplished in their entire
Tomahawk Red, it's funny how you have to resort un-provable hypothetical
scenarios to even have any kind of foundation to support your poorly conceived
arguments as to Utah's superiority over BYU. "If
Utah's 2004/2008 accomplishments had happened in 1984, they would have won
the NC on each occasion.If BYU's 1984 season happened in
2004/2008, it would have resulted in a BCS bowl... but NOT a NC."Speculation of a desperate fan whose only form of relief of their anxiety of
supporting a now perennial doormat and loser, whose recruits are abandoning
their scholarships to pursue playing opportunities with teams that have a higher
chance of playing on a bowl bound team and playing in front of millions more
viewers than the Utes. Anyone... ANYONE, regardless of whether
you're a fan of BYU or Utah, who denies that is in denial of the facts.
@Tomahawk RedBYU1 National Championship23
Conference Titles51 All Americans (13 Consensus All-Americans)1
Heisman Trophy winner4 Davey O'Brien Awards7 Sammy Baugh
Trophy Winners1 Doak Walker Trophy Winner1 Jim Brown Trophy
winner2 Outland Trophy winnersAnd LaVell Edwards received the Bobby
Dodd Coach of the Year Award in 1979, the AFCA (Kodak) Coach of the Year
Award in 1984, and the Amos Alonzo Stagg Award (career achievement) in2003.32 Bowl appearancesSix player College Football Hall of Fame and LaVell
Edwards was inducted as a coach in 2004.In 1996 BYU became the first
school to play 15 games in its season, going 14-1.Utah17
Bowl games going back to 19391 College Football Hall of Fame (no players
just a coach)0 National awards It's hard to find more
info because there isn’t a lot of really big achievements the UoU has
accomplished outside of their two undefeated seasons and their win streak over
BYU. Other than that? Not really anything one can point to and say the Utes
have accomplished twice as much as BYU.
So, for those of you not keeping score at home, through 18 posts, Ute fans had
posted 10 times on a BYU article, Cougar fans had posted 5 times, and 3 others
seem to have other loyalties. Tomahawk Red suggests that Go Red's comments
have riled the Cougar faithful. Might I suggest that the fan base that has
commented twice as much is the one that is the most riled. Might I also suggest
that, since the two aforementioned posters have commented as much as all BYU
fans combined, they are the most riled of all. I'll end with a
rhetorical question, do you always pay so much attention to, and place such
emphasis on, things that you deem completely irrelevant? You say you don't
care, but you care enough to read and comment on a BYU article--not just once,
but multiple times. To quote the Bard, "The lady doth protest too
Winning a national championship just as winning the Heisman trophy is more a
whole series of fortunate occurrences than the absolute measure of superiority
over the competition. Both have been won in Cinderella fashion as often as an
overwhelming power of success. If BYU had not defeated Miami that first game of
the year Detmer likely would not have won the Heisman. If there had been another
undefeated team in 1984, the national title would probably have gone elsewhere.
Utah should have won the title in 2008, but the power of influence of the
"power conferences" had taken control by then. Boise State came within a
missed field goal of making their claim to history. We should take pride in the
accomplishments of all our schools and athletes, and always remember the
excitement and joy we shared watching them.
@UteanymousThere are two iconic trophies representing the ultimate
individual and team achievement in major college football - the Heisman Trophy
and the Crystal Football National Championship Trophy.Both such
trophies are displayed proudly in BYU's Legacy Hall of Fame. The Utes have
never gotten close to winning either.------------That
depends on your definition of "close".Utah in 2008 finished
AP #2 with 16 first place votes (highest ranked mid-major during BCS era and
since 1984).Alex Smith finished #4 in the 2004 Heisman voting:#1 Matt Leinart, USC#2 Adrian Peterson, Oklahoma#3 Jason
White, Oklahoma#4 Alex Smith, Utah#5 Reggie Bush, USC
sammygSpringville, UTgoredA crystal trophy, the
continuing media respect that BYU garners because of it and what Lavell Edwards
accomplished begs to differ. -----------Media respect,
like "Who they beat, Bo Diddly Tech?". Let's be real, it's a
"disputed" national title."With the way the [BCS] system
is now, there's no question we wouldn't have been No. 1. We probably
would have gone to a better bowl, and that would have been great, but there
would have been four teams higher than us in the polls." -- Robbie Bosco“That's essentially what happened last season to BYU's
rival, Utah, which finished its regular season unbeaten but never rose higher
than No. 6 in the BCS standings. The Utes earned a lucrative trip to the Sugar
Bowl, but despite stunning SEC runner-up Alabama, had to settle for No. 2 in the
final AP poll [16 votes] behind 13-1 Florida, which toppled 12-2 Oklahoma in the
BCS Championship Game.” -- SI
Go Red's comments are getting Y fans all riled up alright!Because they are true.If Utah's 2004/2008 accomplishments had
happened in 1984, they would have won the NC on each occasion.If
BYU's 1984 season happened in 2004/2008, it would have resulted in a BCS
bowl... but NOT a NC.Anyone... ANYONE, regardless of whether
you're a fan of BYU or Utah, who denies that is in denial of the facts.
sammygSpringville, UTSlap a 2014 sticker on your PAC12
participation banner.---------Utah has accomplished
twice as much as BYU has.Deal with it pal.PS- I LOVE how
much angst our Pac 12 stickers cause you.LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I Bleed BlueLas Vegas, NVOh well, at least Utah has that
scoreboard with the Fiesta Bowl and Sugar Bowl BCS banners. --------And four in a row...And 9 of 12...And 54-10...And Pac 12 versus irrelevance.Utah fans
couldn't care less about BYU owning the most disputed NC in college
Whether you are talking about 1984, 1996, 2004, or 2008, it's no different.
Those stories are not 2014, and in 2014 neither BYU or Utah is relevant because
they don't win consistently against quality competition. Enjoy the
memories BYU and Utah homers.
I would say Utah had it way tougher on 2008 that BYU did in 1984. Utah was the
little guy that got shafted, even after going undefeated.What have
you done lately sammyg? What BYU did was long ago. We won last year!!!!!!Go Noles!!!!!!!
Any unbiased and knowledgeable follower of football knows that it was mostly a
fluke. The much ballyhooed victory over then #3 Pitt is diminished as it became
apparent that they were highly overrated and ended the season out of the top 25.
Many top teams were knocking each other off. BYU's strength of schedule was
one of the worst in the NCAA. BYU finally just barely beat unrated 6-5 Michigan
17-10. It was a great accomplishment ending the season as the only undefeated
team, but it is a real stretch to say they were the best team in the country. As
for the claim of jealousy, Utah's circumstances were very different. When
they went undefeated in 2004 there were 4 other undefeated teams by the end of
the regular season, and 3 teams remained undefeated (two undefeated teams met in
a bowl game) for the final rankings. A team with one loss even ended up ahead of
Utah in the polls.
wacpaddled"because of BYU's situation in 1984, it was
impossible for Utah to be awarded the national championship in 2008"LOL at your false claim.The Bowl Coalition was the initial
predecessor of the Bowl Championship Series that was formed through an agreement
among college football bowl games and conferences for the purpose of forcing a
national championship game between the top two teams and to provide quality bowl
game matchups for the champions of its member conferences. It was established
for the 1992 season after co-national champions in both 1990 and 1991. It had
absolutely NOTHING to do with BYU 1984. The agreement was in place for the 1992,
1993, and 1994 seasons. It was supplanted by the Bowl Alliance in 1995, which
was replaced by the BCS in 1998.The vast difference BYU 1984 and
Utah 2008 was the majority of coach and sportswriters agreed that BYU deserved
to win the 1984 National Championship, and the majority of coach and
sportswriters didn't think that Utah deserved the 2008 National Champion.
goredA big picture comparison:There are two iconic
trophies representing the ultimate individual and team achievement in major
college football - the Heisman Trophy and the Crystal Football National
Championship Trophy.Both such trophies are displayed proudly in
BYU's Legacy Hall of Fame. The Utes have never gotten close to winning
either.In 1984, BYU spent 7 weeks ranked #1 in the AP and Coaches
polls, from November 20th until the Final polls of the season. Utah has never
come close to being ranked #1 in either poll.BYU has been a
perennial Top 25 football program since 1977. Utah didn't even crack the AP
Top 25 until 1994.BYU has been ranked in AP Poll: 11 Times
(Preseason), 17 Times (Final), 236 Weeks (Total)Utah has been ranked in AP
Poll: 2 Times (Preseason), 5 Times (Final), 77 Weeks (Total)BYU has
been a member of the most exclusive club in major college football - major
college football national champions - for 30 years. Utah is still on the outside
goredA crystal trophy, the continuing media respect that BYU garners
because of it and what Lavell Edwards accomplished begs to differ. Yours and others debating it only confirms the continued bitterness and the
never-ending jealousy of not having one.Slap a 2014 sticker on your
PAC12 participation banner.
Part 2But because of BYU's situation in 1984, it was impossible
for Utah to be awarded the national championship in 2008. Those people in power
made sure that a team from a non-power conference would never repeat the
scenario that BYU fortunately found themselves in. Utah had, in every way,
proven they deserved to be #1, as they, like BYU in 1984, were the only
undefeated team in the country at the end of the year. But, for the
BYU fans who will come onto this post and say that Utah has never achieved what
BYU has, this is blatantly untrue. A person who truly understands college
football will agree that Utah's accomplishments have been greater.
Part 1BYU had the fortune of playing at a time when the power
conferences weren't prepared to deal with a scenario where the only
undefeated team in the country would come from a non-power conference. BYU
benefited from playing a weak schedule of mostly average WAC teams as well as
barely beating a 6-6 Michigan in a minor bowl. BYU won the national
championship, in essence, by default. After this, those in power made changes
to their system to never allow this to happen again.Utah, in 2004,
defeated 4 teams from power conferences, and ended up going undefeated. They
never had a close game, including the Fiesta Bowl rout of Pittsburgh by 28
points. In 2008 Utah's feat was more impressive. Besides again going
undefeated and again defeating 4 teams from power conferences, they defeated an
Alabama team that had been ranked #1 in the country for a month and a half. In
fact, Florida, the supposed national champions, ended up beating Alabama by
fewer points than did Utah. And Florida had one loss already.
Yes, back in 1984 indeed. Where are the recent accomplishments? That national
championship was won on the 96th ranked strength of schedule by the way.
I Bleed BlueLas Vegas, NV.....Oh well, at least Utah has that
scoreboard with the Fiesta Bowl and Sugar Bowl BCS banners. Kinda like the Jazz
hanging up the Western Conference NBA Champions banner twice a few years ago. It
just screams impressive.__________Oh well, at least BYU
can indirectly admit that independence is not working. And keep dropping hints
about joining the BIG 12.
I think it's real cool that the Y went undefeated and the Utes did as well
twice. Why does one's success have to detract from the other. Pretty
BYU 1984 was loaded with exceptional players, but the thing that made them stand
out from every other BYU team in history, is their dogged determination not to
lose to anybody.Time and time again, at Pittsburgh, at Air Force, at
Hawaii, and versus Michigan, BYU pulled victory from the jaws of defeat.That dogged determination was exemplified by Bosco, who lead BYU to a
comeback win over Michigan, on an injured leg that he could barely stand on.
Here goes the Deseret News again throwing chum into the water looking for the
sharks to bite. First an article on BYU and Utah being tied together and now
another reminder to the Utah fan base of something they seriously can now only
dream about. They may never get to a Rose Bowl let alone win a national
championship. Oh well, at least Utah has that scoreboard with the Fiesta Bowl
and Sugar Bowl BCS banners. Kinda like the Jazz hanging up the Western
Conference NBA Champions banner twice a few years ago. It just screams
Back in '84