@wrz... so what you are saying is Christ's teachings are conditional, that
the early Christians had it easier to love their enemies? I do understand the
sacrifice your family would be forced to endure should they loose their family
provider, and it would create truly a hardship. But I would counter is if they
have a family leader the is willing to let his heart be filled with hate - they
are loosing something without even loosing him.The Savior when asked
how many times should we forgive replied not 7 times, but 70 times 7. (Matt
18:22) I doubt he was talking about a specific 490 times - Rrather saying
illustratively many more times than we could count.It is hard to
argue with your logic in real world circumstances - I understand it completely -
but at the same time, the Saviors teachings should be what we strive for at
@JoeBlow:"At one point in the ceremony, a letter addressed to him was
read aloud. It was signed Barack Obama. Upon hearing this name, the boy laughed
and rolled his eyes. When he was then handed the letter, he mocked tearing it
up."The letter was probably fake. Barack Hussein Obama likely
has little time to write a personal letter to a scout receiving an advancement.
He's much too busy campaigning. Speaking of which, how is Barack Hussein
Obama able to use government assets such as Air Force One, to do political
campaigning? This is misappropriation of government assets and a serious crime.
But, actually the kid might have committed a serious faux pas. He
mighta been able to sell the letter with the signature for alotta money sometime
down the road.@John Charity Spring:"This letter ignores
one important fact: we cannot fit another 6-8 billion people in this
Country."The people who are supposed to be managing immigration
don't seem to care how many illegals enter. Barack Hussein Obama cares
though. He's enjoying the prospects of millions of Democrat votes that
will be available in upcoming elections.
Don't tell me I 'hate' any of 'em. But I don't have to
like 'em:President Bush - Good guy to have a beer with. Better
painter than president. Not a smart man.Republicans - Party of No. No
ideas. Conservatives - See above. Can tie anything to Naziism. Rich
people - I will never be one. They can pay their share. Corporations - If
they really have the rights of people, most should at least be in jail. Pro-life crowd - Anti choice crowd. Religious front. People who care deeply
for children till they're born, then are willing to send 'em back
across the border to die. Religious people - Want to share their beliefs
on an 'or else' basis. As long as they can tell you what to do,
they're fine. Tea Party folks - The guys with the misspelled signs
and goofy hats? Yeah right. Traditional Marriage supporters - They'll
never have to marry the same sex. Neither will anyone else, if they get their
@UtahBlueDevil:"The savior taught that we should love both our
neighbor and our enemy alike..."But, what if the enemy wants to
kill us. Should there be love in that case?You may say, the
Savior's enemies killed him. But, wait a minute... He rose from His dead
state three days later. If I could do that, raise from the dead state three
days or even a week later, I'd have no problem loving my enemy.But, as it now stands, if I get killed what would happen to my family who
relies on me for support? They'd likely have to endure dire circumstances.
Not good.The admonition to love your enemy is not very sage advise.
"This conflict has been going on for thousands of years..."True.It all started with Abraham and his children. His wife, Sarah
couldn't have children since she was too old, supposedly. So, according to
the Bible, she gave her handmaiden, Hagar, to Abraham to have a child (son). And
she did. Ishmael. Then, miracle of all miracles, Sarah got pregnant and had a
son, Issac. The two 'wives' apparently didn't get along very well
after that so Abraham sent Hagar and her son, Ishmael away. And there has been
contention ever since... down through the centuries. The descendents of Ishmael
are primarily Arabs. And the descendents of Issac are the Jews.Note
to whom it may concern: The above is a recount of history outlined in the
Bible. And the quote at the beginning of this comment is from the article.
While I agree the boy's conduct was inappropriate, I must respectfully
disagree that "We must hold in highest esteem our democratic process, our
neighbors, fellow citizens, our constitution, our lawmakers, our leaders and our
government." I hold our democratic process, most of my neighbors and, most
of all, the Constitution in highest esteem. I do not hold in high esteem
politicians or government officials who violate the Constitution or who will not
make difficult choices because they are afraid of not getting re-elected.Politicians in both parties have failed the American people. We have a
debt that is approaching $18,000,000,000,000 because they are more worried about
getting reelected that in doing what is best for the country. While I think
Bill Clinton tarnished the image of the Presidency with his personal conduct, at
least he made an effort to reign in the federal deficit. Our last two
presidents have been oblivious to economic disaster they are setting in motion.
I do not hold anyone in high esteem who hands out children a bankrupt nation -
because they bought votes with the public treasury.
Is hate like a virus, it can infect people the worst possible way? It can act
like a cancer, it metastasize perfectly healthy cells and you have no idea where
it will show up? Just like a person, to prevent these diseases (viruses,
cancers) to spread is that you must be healthy. Social and economic
"health" needs to be injected into families to stop hate. As families
are part of the subset of any neighborhood, attitudes within this entity are
important. As you see the famous picture of God reaching out towards Adam
in the Sistine Chapel, yet the fingers not touching, can this represent
emotions? The same can be said of a nice smile or a nasty gesture; these also
are spread without touching. Just like a person as part of any organization,
whether on a sports team or the work place, emotions radiates without actually
touching others. Bad attitude by one person can ruin any other people's
day. It is true what is learned within any family spreads outside the
family. We radiate attitudes, by the choices we make.
Obviously I made my point poorly because you missed it entirely.I
never said religion is the cause of all wars and in fact I doubt it is the cause
of most wars. Wars are fought (again, reread my prior comment) over land, money,
power, women, control and probably most often throughout history, sheer
boredom.What religion does, and too a greater degree than any other
group thinking, is add fuel to conflicts at unprecedented levels. The Northern
Irish are not fighting over the transubstantiation, but the fact is the
conflicting parties ALWAYS divide along religious lines – same goes for
all conflicts where religious identity is prevalent among the combatants. We
don’t need studies to confirm this glaringly obvious fact.And
you’re confused about what liberals tell us on this subject –
liberals almost never claim religion is the problem, as they are far too PC to
make such a culturally judgmental assertion. Instead, liberals tell us wars are
about oppression and political grievances, which if true we should expect to see
legions of Tibetan Buddhist suicide bombers.The question you should
be asking is “why don’t we?”
JoeCapitalist2Orem, UTHutterite: "This mess is perpetuated by
religion."I've got news for you. Hatred is used as a weapon
by those who are irreligious as much or more than those who claim religion as
justification.You don't have to go far to find countless
examples of hate being spewed out by those who dispise religion. Sure, you can
find plenty of examples of so-called religious people who don't follow the
"love thy neighbor" admonition, but if you don't put blinders on,
you can find just as many or more examples from people who think along the same
lines as you.9:18 a.m. July 25, 2014======= As a Mormon Missionary -- I never ONCE had an atheist, agnostic,
Muslim, Jew or Buddahist spit on me.but, I can't even
begin to count the number of "Christians" who did, all in the name
"It’s worth noting that Northern Ireland is the last European remnant
of what the entire continent looked like 500 years ago." "what people
have always fought about; land, treasure, power, control, etc" Which
conflict in Europe over the last 500 years were religion based? Tribal maybe
but ascribing tribal as the same as religion is your attempt to attack religion
and the religious and label them bad. Oh that is what this thread is about
breeding hate based on false premises.
Tyler D that is not the consensus of these studies. They assert religion has
been used as a false blame of conflicts. Japan did not attack Pearl Harbor
invade china and other countries on the basis of religion. The war in Iraq, is
not religion as we have been told numerous times by liberals (oil?). Hamas does
not claim to attack Israel based on religion, they claim it is the illegal
occupation of Gaza. In fact look at the numbers killed by religious wars, as
opposed to all others and you will see wars fought for non religious purposes
far exceed any war you can claim to be based on religion. Germany did not
invade Poland for religion, and the Holocaust was not religion based as much as
a progressive eugenics policy to make the race pure. Please identify which wars
in the past 4 hundred years you feel were strictly religion and then the number
of casualties? Prove your hypothesis is not falsely created as an attack
against religion. And even though combatants may have different religious
beliefs most wars are not based on their religions.
@jsf – “A Belfast pub is not blown up to assert ‘the Real
Presence’ or ‘the Virgin Birth.’”Of course
not, but that point is irrelevant and fails to see the forest through the
trees.What provides fuel for these conflicts – which are about
what people have always fought about; land, treasure, power, control, etc…
- is tribal group thinking. Religion didn’t invent us/them thinking, but
adding a cosmic or “eternal” dimension to it was the equivalent of
going on steroids. There is no more powerful us/them dichotomy than the
saved/damned or holy/heretic, and in all these conflicts you mentioned the
common denominator is always religious identification.It’s
worth noting that Northern Ireland is the last European remnant of what the
entire continent looked like 500 years ago. Having largely moved beyond their
religious beliefs, Europe today is a peaceful, happy and prosperous society (the
problems of Muslim immigration notwithstanding). The world’s
attachment to bronze-age religion is far more destructive than it is positive
– a fact our brilliant Founders recognized more than 200 years ago –
and we will be a far better off when it’s gone.
"It's all learned in the home." From the poster that in June 2013
told us on these posts, he loathes members of his church that think differently
than him. What have you taught your children about members of your church. Has
your heart been turned to loving those who differ? Hutterite,
American Sociological Review article from August of 2007, Brian J. Grim and
Roger Frinke find little support for the religion argument. A detailed analysis
of countries with multiple religions, or borders between countries of different
religious beliefs, finds that they are no more likely to be engaged in conflict
than other countries or borders.As Time magazine’s Lance
Morrow wrote in 1976, “A Belfast pub is not blown up to assert ‘the
Real Presence’ or ‘the Virgin Birth.’”According to Holsti, For those (wars) since World War II (India-Pakistan,
Israel-Arab, Biafra-Nigeria and Syria-Lebanon), none, according to Holsti, had
religion as the primary rationale for fighting, even if the wars were advertised
Hutterite: "This mess is perpetuated by religion."I've
got news for you. Hatred is used as a weapon by those who are irreligious as
much or more than those who claim religion as justification.You
don't have to go far to find countless examples of hate being spewed out by
those who dispise religion. Sure, you can find plenty of examples of so-called
religious people who don't follow the "love thy neighbor"
admonition, but if you don't put blinders on, you can find just as many or
more examples from people who think along the same lines as you.
John Charity Spring says:"This letter ignores one important
fact: we cannot fit another 6-8 billion people in this Country. Since we cannot,
the line must be drawn somewhere. If it is not, we will suffer the inevitable
consequences of overcrowding and poverty. The American way of life will cease to
maintain any of the aspects which make it desirable."---
Perfectly apt analogy for the entire planet.
Here in the USA we have many, many organizations that are basically racist and
potentially violent hate groups. They provide a basis for cultivating,
recruiting and mobilizing like-minded followers, and they are sometimes co-opted
by opportunistic politicians for their own narrow purposes. Now put into that
mix flag waving, chest beating, gun waving patriotism and you have fueled the
flame of justifiable hatred. Now target that hated to the public by using the
media, media personalities, political personalities, slogans and catch phrases.
Now ad a bit more fuel to that hatred with examples of attacks against your
religion, family, economy and country. Now broadcast this fine mixture and pound
it daily with the use radio, TV and newspapers. Then suddenly, like
a seed that lands in good dark soil that has the proper sunlight and water it
starts to grow. The roots develop and it pushes through the soil and reaches
upward towards the sky. It grows strong and stands in the middle of a garden
until it is pulled for being a filthy weed. Once the contamination is removed
then the rest of the garden will flourish.
Lost.... and how do you know Obama "disdains" anyone? By what measure,
because he has a different opinion than your own? Do you disdain everyone who
doesn't agree with your world opinion? Good grief.... this is very point
of this opinion piece. Disagreeing should not be equated to hate or disdain.But to far too many, it is an all or nothing proposition. How in the
world do people get so dark that they feel they alone have the prescription for
all of life's circumstances. What makes one think they are so all knowing
they can judge another... to the point of hate and "disdain". I haven't read anything by either Bush nor Obama that come close to the
level of disrespect and contempt of others than can be found here on a daily
basis. Presidents of neither party spew the disdain that a few posters here
produce daily. The problem isn't in the White House... the problem lies
much closer to home.I don't agree with Obama on much, but I
disagree with those that would use hate as a method of change far more. It is
by far more dangerous to this nations.
Hutterite,thanks for verifying my comment that you hate religionBTW, you do not need a possessive apostrophe for "its". The
only time you use an apostrophe with "it" is for the contraction,
"it is"Wonder,why an LDS scout troop? BO has shown
disdain for ALL conservative religions - as evidenced by the Obamacare attack on
faith. After all, JoeBLow is from SC, in the bible belt. Not a hotbed for
Mormonism. Either way, I am glad those parents taught their son to work hard
and achieve a goal, and not to allow some interloper who disdains you rain on
Several things to address"A politically charged ultra
conservative youth group that belittles politicians who don't share their
same right wing views"Not at all. The Boy Scouts is a great
organization. This kids parents are very right wing and vocal. It is easy to
see where he got it. The parents would absolutely feel they are as patriotic as
an American can be."I'm assuming that JoeBlow's
experience happened at an LDS Scout troop Court of Honor"Nope.
Not an LDS Scout Troop. And that would not matter regardless. This article was
about "breeding hate". That is exactly what I was referring to. "You spoke of multiple countries. Did you mean our
“country’s elected leader”? you see, "ies" indicates
plural. "y apostrophe s (y's)" indicates possessive. "Gee Lost. You got me there. Thanks for the correction. Hope that made you
feel superior."But what does it say about his scout leaders and
those he has associated with?"No. Cant pin this at all on the
scout leader. I give all the "credit" to the parents.We
should all examine how what we do and say affects our impressionable children.
JoeCapitalist2,Just to be clear, I did not specify left or right
leaning talk radio. In my book, they all produce low information voters.
Period. People who vote based on the say so of the entertainment industry that
is talk radio.If people want to be well informed they must consider
the full range of views (as presented by their advocates, not their detractors)
and make their decisions after long consideration.There is a great
quote from HL Menken: "There is always a well-known solution to every human
problem – neat, plausible, and wrong."
This mess is perpetuated by religion. We've still got the crusades on the
go; that's why Israel has our platinum mastercard for its' defense
budget. For a lot of people, including many here, any skirmish in this part of
the world is a holy war.
Twin Lights: "Hate is bad for America. But it is apparently very good at
selling advertising on talk shows."...or for scaring low
information voters to the voting booth to vote early and often for big
I'm assuming that JoeBlow's experience happened at an LDS Scout troop
Court of Honor. That's what makes his story even more sad to me -- that
this boy was perfectly comfortable mocking the President in an LDS setting
because he's sure that most of the people in the meeting agree with him.
That's what's sad to me about the story.
JoeBlow,You spoke of multiple countries. Did you mean our
“country’s elected leader”? you see, "ies" indicates
plural. "y apostrophe s (y's)" indicates possessive. BO
gets as much respect as he earns; disrespect and disagreement is NOT contempt
or hatred. If it were, many of the liberal posters here could be accused of
hatred of conservatives.LD_ LibYes, the same could be said
about hating conservatives, president Bush, Senator Lee, Rep Chaffetz, and
ANYONE with whom you disagree. (religion in the case of HVH and Hutterite).
Are YOU the father setting the tradition?Esquire,Did you make
similar comments when bush was being excoriated daily, or is just when BO is
shown the disrespect he has earned that you comment?
@ Joe BlowA politically charged ultra conservative youth group that
belittles politicians who don't share their same right wing views? Where
have we seen this before?This child has completely missed the whole
point of scouting. When I was in scouting, it was all about building
friendships, learning values, and respect for others and nature.If
scouting has forgotten this to become some sick right wing movement where
intolerance is valued, then I hope it continues to diminish in popularity and
participation. My young children can join athletic teams, bands, and clubs to
receive a better education.
This letter ignores one important fact: we cannot fit another 6-8 billion people
in this Country. Since we cannot, the line must be drawn somewhere. If it is
not, we will suffer the inevitable consequences of overcrowding and poverty.
The American way of life will cease to maintain any of the aspects which make
As in "Monkey see, Monkey do" teaching or even leading by example can go
The problem is not hate, The problem is love. Love of life and all it brings.
Sometimes called greed. Greed comes from the strongest built in drive to
survive that exist in every living creature. It is responsible for the vast
different kinds of life forms. Life forms try every strategy, every avenue that
presents itself, some are successful, some are not. In human
beings, the ability to think ahead brings a whole arsenal of weapons to us, Hate
is just one of those weapons. We use hate to disable those who would threaten
our survival comfort as an alternative to war. The neat part about hate is that
we don't have to do any thing to our enemy, hate is a weapon that we build
in ourselves. If we would defeat the hate in ourselves we need to
analyze our need for such a weapon, and check to see if our enemy is really a
threat to our survival. If we would defeat the hate in our enemy, we must
convince him that we are not a threat to his survival.It's sort
of like that bit of turning the other cheek.
Hate (or anger) is a pretty universal emotion and to the extent we can recognize
our own part in keeping it alive there is a chance it can be overcome.The problem with many religions is they codify and even make hate a righteous
attribute of God. The OT often reads as a biography of a deity struggling to
deal with this emotion, and even on occasion having to be talked down from the
ledge (Numbers 14). And in our own time, how often have we heard “love the
sinner, hate the sin?” These views only make it all the more
difficult to ever get beyond hate as they perpetuate the false notion that
it’s caused by others and that our acting out the emotion is morally
righteous.I can think of no problems in life that cannot be more
effectively handled without hate than with, as many great leaders throughout
history have shown (e.g., Jesus, Gandhi, MLK). Good religion testifies to this
truth but bad religion is making the problem exponentially worse.
Agreed!The same can be said about hating -- President
BushRepublicansChristiansMormonsCaucasiansCatholicsConservativesTax payersThe middle class, the
working class, the church goers, it’s all learned in the home.
Hate is bad for America. But it is apparently very good at selling advertising
on talk shows.
I must echo the sentiment of Esquire. Even if that boy independently researched
his position with respect to governance (which I doubt), he is missing a crucial
part of what it means to be American. We must hold in highest esteem our
democratic process, our neighbors, fellow citizens, our constitution, our
lawmakers, our leaders and our government. If we all decide not to, we are
ultimately doomed to the fate of Pakistan; a lawless, warring aggregate of
LDS Liberal:Why did you limit your targets of "hate" to only
leftists?If you were truly concerned about stopping all the hatred
out there, your list would have included some of the following:President BushRepublicansConservativesRich peopleCorporationsPro-life crowdReligious peopleTea Party folksTraditional Marriage supportersOr are you like some who believe
that racism can only exist as white people discriminating against blacks - not
the other way around? Liberals can and do teach hatred toward those who disagree
with them ideologically.If you are really concerned about hatred,
preach against ALL hatred, not just your side of it.
Agreed!But -- this also applies to hatred of:President
Obama, Our Government, Environmentalists, political parties,
Muslims, Jews, blacks, hispanics, asians, Gays, Lesbians, the poor, etc.In the Book of Mormon, it's called
living "in the traditions of their Fathers."Meaning -- they
learned it in their homes, from their parents.
JoeBlow - Thank you for your illustrative remark. A 14 year-old boy who has
supposedly dedicated his life to living in accordance with the principles lived
by other Eagle Scouts. What does it say about his parents, indeed? But what
does it say about his scout leaders and those he has associated with? It is
cetainly a sad commentary when one so young has learned to disrespect the
president even on front of public audience. What will he be doing as an adult?
Maybe this tolerance some of you seem to be talking about should be aimed at
places like Berkeley California, and other universities, where they hate the
U.S. Military so much, recruiters are not even allowed on campus on in the city.
And since this is DN, do I even need to remind some that there are places where
Missionaries will not go for fear of the hatred they will have pointed at them?
And don't try to say that the anti military attitude was all based upon the
don't ask don't tell policy. If you try to use a political issue as a
valid reason to hate, then the opposition to Obama is justified, as he is a
political issue with which many disagree for good reason.
@ Joe BlowThink that boy would have done the same thing had Bush or
Romney been President? Why or why not?Parents, where do you think he
learned this from?Leaders, what does it benefit to know how to do a
knot when you don't even know the basic principles like respect?Being a vet myself, I would have made a scene. I didn't sacrifice my time
and blood so that punks can make fun of the President. I don't care who the
President is and which party he's from. You show him/her respect. You can
disagree without being disagreeable and disrespectful.
@ JoeBlow, your story of the scout made me want to cry because hate has become
so pervasive in our country. I've been around since Eisenhower, and there
have been Presidents that I did not vote for and with whom I had differences.
But I always respected them because they served in the office and they were
selected by the People. It is so sad that this approach is in the past, that
hyper-partisanship is the rule, and that the opposing party has sworn to make an
incoming President a failure.
I think a lot of this is on the media.The media has discovered that
it's more profitable to place a bunch of good looking girls and have them
bash the President for ratings. The media has found that it's more
profitable to say shocking things on am radio rather than be civil and rational.
The media has learned that you get more ears and eyes if you're a rodeo
clown rather than a reporter.The media isn't helping to inform,
but to mold and shape our hate. So sad.
Agreed!The same can be said about hating -- President
Obama, Tree-Huggers, Democrats, Muslims, Blacks, Hispanics, Gays,the poor, the sick, the needy....etc.It's all learned in the home.BTW -- In the Book
of Mormon, It's refered to following "in the traditions in their
"which tells me the people are being taught to hate, perpetuating the
problem"I recently attended an eagle scout ceremony for a 14
year old scout who had earned the rank.At one point in the ceremony, a
letter addressed to him was read aloud. It was signed Barack Obama.Upon hearing this name, the boy laughed and rolled his eyes. When he was then
handed the letter, he mocked tearing it up.How sad is this? One can
credit his "patriotic" parents for instilling such contempt and hatred
for our countries elected leader and for completely missing one of the main
principles in boy scouts.
Great letter Jan. And that concept also illustrates the great responsibility of
parents in teaching correct principles to the children they raise in their
families. It's something we should all think about before we spout off
with hateful rhetoric about anyone, even in the assumed privacy of our homes.
Little ears are listening and they will perpetuate the thoughts and character of
the people they look up to - their parents. Let's be careful.
Couldn't agree more.... whether it is Israeli and Palestinians, or Democrat
and Republican, our capacity to hate has nothing to do with who is in charge but
far more so the attitudes found in the home. The savior taught that we should
love both our neighbor and our enemy alike - all during times of much more
strife and oppression than we have now. Our attitudes are not determined by
people elsewhere, but in our own homes.