@Lionute"I'm also wondering at what point and time in last years
game you felt pretty comfortable that BYU was going to win."------------Well, for starters, when you're trailing you
don't usually feel too comfortable. But even with the injury forcing Jamaal
Williams out of the game in the 3rd quarter we were moving the ball and closing
the gap, we were still in the game. We closed the game to 13-6, Utah was having
problems moving the ball and BYU had started outgaining the utes going into the
4th quarter. The point that I felt the game was out of reach was
late in the 4th quarter (under 2 mins left) and we were driving in ute territory
and had a crucial 3 and 13 and BYU coaches called a pass play to seldom-used,
little, short-armed, Eric Thornton. He couldn't make the catch and on 4th
down Walker intercepted Hill in the red zone to end the drive. Hine's 103
yd KR for a TD was in the 2nd quarter but at this point would've had the
@noperspective"Holmoe's goal, as reported by you, was to get the
ACC and SEC to recognize byu as a P5 team. Epic failure"------------No, that's not an epic failure, it's a short
to medium range goal that hasn't been realized yet. An example
of an "epic" failure (in other words, a historic failure, one of
legendary proportions) is the utes first year in the Pac12 and the way Kyle
handled his QB situation leading into their first season.They had a
chance to come in strike gold right out of the gate. The Pac12 gave the utes the
easiest conference schedule, USC and the rest of the South Division was having a
down year and they had no Oregon or Stanford to play.Kyle prepared
his team for that historic first season thinking frail/fragile 165 lb Jordan
Wynn at QB backed up by a D-II reject was going to be good enough to win the
South Div title and CCG. Then he took it to the next level of epic fail when he
did it again for season 2. It's been all downhill since then.
That's "epic" fail.
Nice work Uteology. Somebody just got so very busted about making up his
affiliation with a Pac-12 school.
@CougarSunDevilPhoenix, AZVegasUte & Frozen Fractuals:"Noticeably absent from the list of "very high research
activity" schools:Brigham Young University"Also
notable was that this list was derived from Wikipedia. Wikipedia, as anyone who
does any research knows, is not a credible source. Is this what Utah teaches
it's students (as evidenced by the fans/alumni who post and agree with
this)? If so, then Utah shouldn't be considered a research institution.--------------The list derived from Wikipedia is from a
valid, respected source:The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement
of Teaching "Founded by Andrew Carnegie in 1905 and chartered in
1906 by an act of Congress, the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of
Teaching is an independent policy and research center. Improving teaching and
learning has always been Carnegie’s motivation and heritage."So what were you saying about Utah alum and our research skills? Also, on your post about ASU not being a research institution, the above
foundation "very highly" disagrees with your statement. Ironic that as
an ASU alum you weren't aware of their "very high" research
@CougarSunDevilThat list on Wikipedia has a VALID source: Carnegie
Classification of Institutions of Higher Education. The time you took to talk
smack on Utah research skills you could have spent doing your own research. Had you done that you found that list under "Basic
Classification", "Very high research activity". Had you
done that you would have seen that in alphabetical order, Arizona State
University is listed first.Had you seen that, or attended ASU, you
would not have made the following comment:"ASU is not a research
institution nor a medical school, nor anything of the like. Anyone touting that
ALL PAC-12 schools fit some specific mold is only kidding themselves."Clear to revise your statement?
@ DuckOuttaWaterOh yeah, it was insane. You should check out the
video. It should be pretty easy to find with your preferred search engine. As for the rivalry getting out of hand, BYU fans will blame Urban Meyer
in 2004 who put Y shaped urinal cakes in Utah's locker room. Utah fans
will either blame Austin Collie in 2007 with his "magic happens" comment
or Max Hall when he went on a rant and called Utah's entire team and fan
base "classless" in 2009. I agree wholeheartedly that the two year
break is much needed.
CougarSunDevil: "Also notable was that this list was derived from
Wikipedia."Actually no. You may have derived it from Wikipedia
but the actual source is the Carnegie Classification of Institutes of Higher
Education. And like it or not, fair or not, conferences and school
administrators do look at this list and do care about it when considering who to
include. Now I can't say that holds true for the Big 12, but for the other
4 it's definitely a factor, and in the case of the B1G and PAC12 it is a
deal breaker (I don't know if it's actually in the by laws or not,
maybe someone else knows?).
VegasUte:Leave it to a Ute fan not to grasp the meaning of
"consistently" or "and" (as opposed to "or") when used
in a sentence. Might I suggest a course in remedial English?
BigCougar:"benefitted from their Pac12 refs throwing the flag on
a phantom penalty"It still amuses me that not a single byU fan
thinks they have ever lost a game to Utah. There is ALWAYS an excuse!
Classic!If byU was capable of actually beating Utah on the field,
their fans wouldn't have to make up so many excuses, and the refs would
feel safer leaving the cement bowl.Go Utes!!
VegasUte & Frozen Fractuals:"Noticeably absent from the list
of "very high research activity" schools:Brigham Young
University"Also notable was that this list was derived from
Wikipedia. Wikipedia, as anyone who does any research knows, is not a credible
source. Is this what Utah teaches it's students (as evidenced by the
fans/alumni who post and agree with this)? If so, then Utah shouldn't be
considered a research institution.
@BigCougar,BYU played 6 power5 teams last year and went 2-4. Most
power conferences play 8 conference games. Play all 6 in a row and then throw
two more in. By the way, of the 6 you played Wisconsin finished the highest and
would be a 3rd place team in the Big 10. So add two more games, Oregon, UCLA,
Stanford, Ohio State, Florida St. Baylor, Michigan St. Where does another win
come from? I'm also wondering at what point and time in last years game
you felt pretty comfortable that BYU was going to win. I felt pretty certain
that Utah would win before halftime.
WA Alum&Dad: "Oh, and last I looked, UO had no colleges of medicine,
engineering or agriculture. In fact, it lags woefully behind OSU in it's
current research spending. So what gives, Duck?"Unlike 4 members
of the PAC12, Oregon has been a distinguished member of the AAU since 1969. That
pretty well trumps whatever research stats you want to dig up. AAU is king.
Unlike tier 1 research which is the least expected, AAU is a big deal.
That's why every single university in the B1G including the recent
additions of Rutgers and Maryland, are AAU schools (except Nebraksa which had
it's membership discontinued AFTER joining the B1G).
@idablu"Wait.... Are you the same guy who ratted out Spencer
Hadley right before the Utah/BYU game?Seriously, Who am I sir and My
Perspective (same guy?)."Ratted out Spencer Hadley? Is this
from the same fan base that adheres to an "honor code" where it is a
violation if you do not report a violation of the "honor code"?And I'm certain it is an honor to be suspected of being the same person
as "My Perspective" I can assure you I'm not. In fact, although
I'm certain I have read some of his posts, from his name I did not know
whether he was a fan of Utah or not. I'll be more aware in the future!
Thanks for the "heads up"!And remember if you see a
violation of the honor code you are obligated to report it.
Two For Flinching: I didn't know BYU fans threw trash after the game.
That's disappointing as a member of the LDS faith.Maybe this
rivalry does need a break. The vitriol I've seen on these boards is
jaw-dropping at times. I mean Duck & Beaver fans went at it sometimes, but
it really was a "civil" war most of the time. This rivalry seems more
personal than I remembered it growing up here. Maybe I can ask
people, what has changed since the 80s? Why does it seem this rivalry is so
@ BigCougarConfirmation bias, pure and simple. Porter was playing
perfect D, hand on the receiver's hip while he turned back to make a play
on the ball, which is when Mathews pulled him down. Of course I
don't see you mentioning the PI on Dres that happened before the ball was
tipped, yet was called back after the review. Even the announcers were stunned,
and that called force Utah to punt from the 10. You also haven't mentioned
BYU's TD late in the fourth were Alisa was clearly stopped before the goal
line. And not not forget the fairly ridiculous unsportsmanlike call on McGill
after BYU had been stopped late in the fourth. The refs weren't perfect,
but suggesting that they somehow cheated to help Utah win is extremely
unsportsmanlike and it shows a lack of class. Also, the refs certainly
didn't do anything that warranted people throwing trash out of the stands.
UoU 1991:"It's interesting that when the PAC 10 / Big 12
South merger talks were going on, not a peep was heard from the PAC 10 about
'research'. Oklahoma State has the exact same 'high
research' classification as BYU, yet the PAC 10 was ready to welcome the
Cowboys with open arms."There were "peeps" about
OSU's substandard academic CV. In fact, in the 11th hour, Larry Scott/the
Pac-10 was maneuvering to cut OSU out of the deal. And the only reason why OSU
was ever even CONSIDERED was because of the Pac-10's lust for a Texas/OU
homerun. The reason why the Y was NEVER considered, was because Utah
doesn't have the same clout at Texas. Texas' coattails were long
enough to drag Tx Tech and potentially Okla St along. Their coattails sure got
Tx Tech and Baylor into the Big 12. Unfortunately, Utah's coattails
weren't anywhere near long enough for our little brother down south to ride
in on.Oh well. The cougars have always preferred playing small ball
anyway so no harm, no foul.
@Twofer"Comparing coaching records is not a fair comparison because
many of the programs Bronco beat are not comparable to where they are
today"-----------Then you could easily say the
opposite as well, that teams BYU lost to then aren't as good now as they
were then. That's football. Things change from year to year and you have no
control over what another program does. As for Mathews getting
interfered with by the ute DB, contact he initiated against the DB was in
retaliation and it's pretty easy to see in video replay. But that
wasn't the only case of intentional PI that the Pac12 refs
"managed" to NOT see.Btw, this was the same crew that got
reprimanded after drawing national attention for obviously, willfully and
intentionally cheating Wisconsin in order to giftwrap the game for ASU earlier
in the year. The Pac12 reprimanded them because of how obvious it was, I'm
sure they prefer things to not be so noticeable.It's clear that
the only real advantage that utah has recieved in joining the Pac12 is the
ability to use their refs in games. It certainly paid off this past year.
DuckyInTulsa:Nice of you to admit BYU 'fans' want a steady
stream of Harmon's pandering, telling them how the Y is so important to
every aspect of college football--even the P5 conferences.We'll
be up all night trying to figure out why no conference wants the Y.
VegasUte"So, while BYU does research, it is not up to the level
of every single member of the PAC 12."BYU's research is
every bit as highly regarded as any school in the PAC 12, BYU simply
doesn't do as much.It's interesting that when the PAC 10 /
Big 12 South merger talks were going on, not a peep was heard from the PAC 10
about "research". Oklahoma State has the exact same "high
research" classification as BYU, yet the PAC 10 was ready to welcome the
Cowboys with open arms.
The Tier 1 Research Institution argument as a reason to exclude BYU lost a lot
of merit when the Pac 10 invited Okie St and Texas Tech as part of their bid to
get Oklahoma and Texas to join back in 2010. Clearly the Pac presidents'
sacred purity of top tier academic research can be watered down -- for the right
@ BigCougarDon't blame the refs. Mathews clearly pulled down
Porter in an (unsportsmanlike) attempt to draw a PI. Also, it wouldn't
have mattered anyway if Mathews had made that catch because the cloak was
showing 0:00 and the ball landed on the sideline 15 yards away from the end
zone.If the PAC wanted a beatable team when they expanded they would
have taken UNLV, or Weber St. Pretending like Utah brings no value, despite the
fact it was picked over every other mid-major out West just makes you look
jealous and petty. Also, since joining the PAC, Utah has gone 9-1 in
non-confrence games including a bowl win. That raises the conf. profile and
makes the PAC-12 look stronger.Comparing coaching records is not a
fair comparison because many of the programs Bronco beat are not comparable to
where they are today. UCLA, Oregon, and Washington are all significantly better
than they were when BYU beat them. Also, you're ignoring the impact the
week-in, week-out grind has on a football team. If BYU played UCLA, Stanford,
Arizona, USC, Arizona St., Oregon, and Washington St. all in a row, the Cougars
would win one game, maybe.
@MyPerspectiveYes, we have 19 games over 12 years, which is still
more games per year than we have with the Big 12 over that span. Which explains
why I want BYU to have a scheduling agreement with the Big 12 over the Pac
12.Secondly, I hope you realize that our schedules 12 years from now
are very very very far from being complete. I guarantee you we will have a lot
more than 19 Pac 12 games over the next 12 years.We played 7 games
in our first 3 years against Pac 12 teams, compared to just 3 against Big 12
teams in the first 3 years.This pace will likely continue. In 2016,
we will play Arizona, UCLA, and utah from the Pac 12.And only West
Virginia from the Big 12.I'm not saying I wouldn't like a
scheduling agreement with the Pac 12, I'm just saying a Big 12 agreement
would be far more beneficial for both our scheduling and our attempt to join a
@JD"But it is also a team that is beatable,"--------------Bronco is 9-9 vs the Pac10/12 as the HC at BYU while
Whitt is 12-21. Looking at the current trend that Whitt is on, he is likely to
finish 1-8 in conference this year. Now I would bet against that but not because
anyone expects utah to win much in the Pac12, rather, nobody expects Whitt to
last that long or be able to finish out the season. Comparing both
coaches, Bronco has faired better vs the Pac12 and it's not even close.
Using your analysis makes sense if you use that lense to try and understand why
the Pac12 invited utah. They obviously saw the utes as a "beatable team"
and figured they would help 7 or 8 of their established conference teams reach
the necessary 6 wins every year to become bowl eligible and thereby increase
Pac12 revenue.Kudos utah!!!Hooray for the Pac12!!!! Goooooo Pac12!!!!Win Pac12!!!!!Yayyyyyy Pac12!!!
@JD"PAC-12 members Washington and Utah easily disposed of BYU"----------------Utah won by 7 pts and coincidentally
benefitted from their Pac12 refs throwing the flag on a phantom penalty to
nullify a 90+ yd TD return by Adam Hine. Utah also needed the help of those same
notorious Pac12 refs to conveniently not call a PI late in the game deep in ute
territory when the ute DB was beat and grabbed Mitch Mathews and pulled him out
of bounds thus preventing him from making the catch and putting BYU in scoring
position.yes, utah (with the extra help) managed to win the game but
when you consider how key that "extra help" was (removing points off the
board) and the fact that they were outplayed statistically I fail to see where
utah "easily disposed" of the Y. despite all the "extra help" u
still had to hang on for dear life.Of all the "supposed
advantages" claimed in joining the Pac12, the only noticeable one so far has
been the ample aid of Pac12 refs. (btw that crew was the same one that gained
national infamy when they cheated Wisconsin in the game vs ASU)
@schnee"it's just that the PAC prioritizes other things that
happen to be BYUs weak point)."----------BYU has a
different academic mission and with the UofU close by and having a medical
school, etc it's likely way back when that BYU and the church saw a niche
they could fill in focusing on undergrad programs in an effort to maximize
educational opportunities for students in the state of Utah, keeping costs low
and not duplicating efforts.Setting the rivalry aside for a moment,
it's been a great partnership for the most part even with the entire
embarrassing UofU cold fusion debacle. BYU is one of the leading undergrad
schools in the country and Utah has a nice assortment of graduate programs and a
@Vegasute"Don't forget the fact that 3 of those 19 games are
against Utah, byU's traditional rival. If you take those games out, that
leaves 16 games in 12 years, or 1.33 games per year"----------Great post Veg, I see that you're not counting
games BYU schedules with utah as "official" Pac12 games, sort of like if
we were scheduling with the Pac12's minor league affiliate. the
rest of the Pac12 as well as the national media have known all along that utah
doesn't really belong in the Pac12 and now it sounds like ute fans are
starting to wake up to that reality as well. I imagine this must've been
what Jed Clampett, Jethro and Granny felt like after a few years of sticking out
like sore thumbs in Beverly Hills.(...sound of banjo twanging in the
background...)y'all come back now, y'hear?
esodije:Having a November home schedule of UNLV and Savannah St is
exactly the meaning of a weak schedule "especially at home"-
Frozen Fractals:Noticeably absent from the list of "very high
research activity" schools:Brigham Young UniversitybyU falls into the next tier of 99 schools classified as "high research
activity" universities. So, while byU does research, it is not up to the
level of every single member of the PAC 12.
MyPerspective:Don't forget the fact that 3 of those 19 games
are against Utah, byU's traditional rival. If you take those games out,
that leaves 16 games in 12 years, or 1.33 games per year. byU better hope that
Utah continues the rivalry after 2018 so they can boost up their PAC 12
Taysom4HeismanHeber City, UT"This is why I would like to
see a scheduling agreement with the Big 12, not the Pac 12.We
essentially have everything an official agreement would bring with the Pac
12."If "we" is byu then YOU most certainly do not have
anything remotely similar to an official agreement. Those 19 games Holmoe
managed to schedule with Pac-12 teams will take place over 12 seasons giving byu
about 1.5 Pac-12 games per year. byu (YOU) accomplished that as a member of the
WA_Alum&DadMarysville, WA"BYU focuses on undergraduate
education as part of its mission, but it also has has 68 master's and 25
doctoral degree programs. Its law school and school of management are both
always recognized by USN&WR. Its post-grad to undergrad ratio is on par with
many of the schools in the PAC."Because, WA_Alum&Dad, law
school and school of management though nice, is a pittance compared to the value
of grad (and PhD) programs and research each and every one of the Pac-12 schools
brings to the table. You want to use USN&NR? Fine. Go to the details
reflected in the rankings for GRADUATE programs and look at where byu falls. USU
outclasses byu. Frozen FractalsSalt Lake City, UTWell done, sir...well done, indeed!
@rlsintx"I cannot for the life of me understand what correlation there
is between a university being a tier 1 research school and the guys they watch
play football, who are virtually all undergrads and who will never be grad
students at the same school, and probably not at any other either."You know how BYU coaches often say things like how there's a higher
purpose to a BYU education? Well other institutions feel similarly, and for the
PAC collectively, they put a higher emphasis on academics. It's something
they care about a lot and something they aren't going to just throw away to
add Boise State for football (never gonna happen).
@redthunder"Mutual aid implies both parties benefit and I'm not
seeing how the Pac 12 schools benefit from playing a non Power 5 team."Simple, voters (whether AP, Coaches, or playoff selection committee) are
able to tell the difference between Marshall and Buffalo, Fresno State and Old
Dominion, Kentucky and Oregon, and Rutgers and BYU. Strength of schedule
doesn't discriminate based on conference, and BYU is a nice local-ish
(depending on PAC team obviously) source of a team that is generally an opponent
of decent quality (top 50 most years if not higher) for the PAC teams to
schedule.@idablu"What doesn't pass mustard is the
statement that ALL the PAC 12 schools are such universities and meet that
requirement for inclusion. "Wikipedia "list of research
universities in the united states", under "very high research
activity" (108 schools) you'd findArizona State UniversityOregon State UniversityStanford UniversityUniversity of ArizonaUniversity of California, BerkeleyUniversity of California, Los
AngelesUniversity of Colorado BoulderUniversity of OregonUniversity of Southern CaliforniaUniversity of UtahUniversity of
Washington-SeattleWashington State University12/12
Utah's "coup" of being invited to join the PAC will only have
meaning when/if it becomes a legitimate contender for conference championships
in football and basketball. BYU's experiment with football independence
will only be a failure when/if it consistently has weak schedules (especially at
home), its TV deal with ESPN goes south, and it stops making the post-season.
Since neither one has happened yet, I'd say Utah fans have little to crow
about and BYU fans have little reason to despair. BYU isn't going to win
another football NC anytime soon, but who cares? It could never recruit at that
level, and, even if it could, who'd want some of those people prowling
around their campus?
@ManInTheMiddle"Perhaps at some point the Pac 12 will admit that
picking Colorado was a mistake. "Opening up the Denver-Boulder
market while adding another highly respected research institution is not going
to be viewed as a mistake by the PAC-12 regardless of how little success
Colorado has in most athletics. That said, I'd like BYU and
Utah to be in the same conference, but BYU doesn't meet PAC-12 standards
when it comes to research/graduate programs (which is not to say BYU is bad at
academics, I'd say their undergraduate program is better than Utah's
and that they have very strong business and law programs, it's just that
the PAC prioritizes other things that happen to be BYUs weak point).
"This might be a good topic to bring up this week as the Pac-12 football
media days kick off — the BYU scheduling consortium...BYU has scheduled at
least 19 games with Pac-12 teams through 2025..."That's
fewer than 2 Pac-12 games/season. That can hardly be considered a
"The Pac-12 presidents and chancellors may never include BYU because of
'cultural differences,' but that hasn’t kept league athletic
directors and coaches from scheduling the Cougar football team through the next
decade....Call it a mutual aid society of football: You help us, we’ll
help you." -- Dick HarmonIt also hasn't stopped Pac-12 ADs
and coaches from scheduling MWC teams like Nevada or Hawai'i either. In
fact, Nevada got a Home-&-Home with Arizona rather than having to submit to
a quasi-2-for-1, like Utah's little brother.And Dick,
don't forget...it wasn't JUST the "cultural difference" of
being an institution who'd been censured by the AAUP that kept the Y out of
the Pac-12. There was also the "academic difference" of not being a
Tier-1 Research institution, and the "athletic difference" of having
never played in a BCS bowl. It was all three.
This is why I would like to see a scheduling agreement with the Big 12, not the
Pac 12.We essentially have everything an official agreement would
bring with the Pac 12.However, we only play the Big 12 once in most
future seasons, if that.A scheduling agreement with the Big 12,
along with our unofficial agreement with the Pac 12, would give us between 5-8
Power 5 teams every year, depending on the details of a possible agreement and
any other P5 teams we might schedule.Plus it would get a foot in the
door of the Big 12, a conference I would greatly prefer to be in over the Pac
Oh, and last I looked, UO had no colleges of medicine, engineering or
agriculture. In fact, it lags woefully behind OSU in it's current research
spending. So what gives, Duck?
@Outa Water:Please tell us your definition of a Tier-1 research
institution. BYU focuses on undergraduate education as part of its mission, but
it also has has 68 master's and 25 doctoral degree programs. Its law
school and school of management are both always recognized by USN&WR. Its
post-grad to undergrad ratio is on par with many of the schools in the PAC. So,
what criteria do you use ma'am or sir?
Black Shirts "Kansas is in the BIG12, it doesn't make them good. Utah
is Kansas of the PAC12"As a member of the Big12, Kansas earned a BCS
bowl game. Thank you for saying that Utah - like Kansas - can sometimes earn a
top tier bowl while a member of a P5 conference.
It's great BYU will continue to be acceped and schedule PAC-12 schools but
what are they playing for every year? Once they lose a game there is no chance
for a high profile bowl or a league championship. Is getting back in the MWC so
bad? Playing for championships is what the majority of college teams strive
for. Why is BYU football an exception? Could it be money?
I cannot for the life of me understand what correlation there is between a
university being a tier 1 research school and the guys they watch play football,
who are virtually all undergrads and who will never be grad students at the
same school, and probably not at any other either.
@ Idablue, I agree that comments like that from Harmon do make it more difficult
for Holmoe and the program.
Well Dick that is one way to view the information. I think it is very skewed on
your part. The fact that UCLA posts that they have improved their schedule does
not necessarily mean they are viewing a game with BYU as the game that made
their schedule stronger. Looking at the teams UCLA is going to play, BYU
probably ranks 6th or 7th of the 8 teams listed. That reads to me, the Bruins
will not be playing any Weber State's anymore, instead we have schedule
BYU. PAC-12 members Washington and Utah easily disposed of BYU, I don't
know how one can think that Provo is a legitimate threat. There is a reason why
the PAC-12 has scheduled with BYU, yes the usual things Provo hangs its hat on,
ESPN, etc. But it is also a team that is beatable, the last four years BYU has
had a recruiting ranking in the high 70's, the talent is not there.
Just to clarify to those who think research has nothing to do with it, every
single PAC12 school is at least a tier 1 research institution. BYU is not.
I'm not going to argue about bigotry because there's really no facts
to prove it, but research is a factor and is important to the PAC12. ALL the
PAC12 schools meet a threshold that BYU doesn't. I don't say that to
put down BYU, it's just fact.
"Welcome to all the UofU fans that peruse and eventually comment on BYU
articles."We got nothing else to do while waiting for the DNews
to do a real sports story.
I'd just like to extend a belated Welcome to all the UofU fans that peruse
and eventually comment on BYU articles. Your interest in all things BYU is
impressive. Are we not your big brothers??Even if you do hang your
hats on your recent upsets of the Cougars, you're not that relevant in the
grand scheme of things.P.S. We usually don't listen to the
comments of the kid in the highchair sitting at the grown-up table. Go BYU.Go (away) UofU!
65TossPowerTrap:" I honestly think that BYU will better thrive
outside a P-5 conference. BYU will not gain a significant enough advantage in
recruiting in a P-5 conference to make it competitive"In other
words: byU will never get better, so why try? Sad!Enjoy your paltry
hand-out from the championship playoff games and your low threshold bowl games
for the rest of your foreseeable future!
In all honesty, even though Dick's comment about pregame cocktails was
purely tongue-in-cheek, it was probably ill-advised. I am sure such statements
don't make Holmoe's job of scheduling or trying to get into the P-5
Man these Utey fans are talking smack like they're Alabama. All this talk
about schedule, blah, blah. The Uteys sched does have some great teams. However,
the Uteys will only win 3 games this year. Idaho St (HUM), Fresno St, and
Colorado. So, here is how it plays out. The Uteys are 2-0 and acting like they
won the Rose Bowl(Never!)... before you know it they're 3-9 and K-noWhit is
fired!!! Think about this. The Utes had two great seasons Ever! One
because of Meyer and one because of Anderson (not KW). Here's
some more, Kansas is in the BIG12, it doesn't make them good. Utah is
Kansas of the PAC12....2-4 wins a year.Does Utah have any games of
TV, just saying!!! Recruiting isn't going all that great, in the 50's
is not going to get the Uteys to any bowls games. UM 44 UtahTech 6!!! The
beginning of the end!!!
I don't think anyone disputes that Utah is a fine institution for research
and higher learning. What doesn't pass mustard is the statement that ALL
the PAC 12 schools are such universities and meet that requirement for
inclusion. That is why using that argument against BYU is rather silly.
BYU's stock will continue on as it has since Lavell brought football
prominence. Inclusion in a major conference will happen, eventually, since
having 5 conferences for a 4 team playoff won't sit well for the conference
that is left out. Consolidation will happen at some point and BYU will be one
of those left to the PAC to pick up.My concern with BYU is not
scheduling issues, it's how does BYU keep ESPN happy so they choose to sign
a new contract in a few years. If BYU loses ESPN then it's the beginning
of the end. If ESPN stays on board then things will keep moving on as in the
@Who am I sir?"I intend to text, phone, or write 12 questions
(actually the same question to the 12 coaches) for responses at the media days
event..."Wait.... Are you the same guy who ratted out Spencer
Hadley right before the Utah/BYU game?Seriously, Who am I sir and My
Perspective (same guy?). I have never seen a fan base get so worked up about a
(former) rival who they consider "irrelevant."
"If articles like this cause you such angst . . . then why do you read
them?"Pretty funny stuff coming from a guy who never fails to
post a barb on a Utah story. The problem is simple, ducky. Harmon is
using up all the available ink writing pony-and-rainbow pieces to stir up you y
"fans." U fans are entertained by the contortions and have nothing else
to read in the DNews.
WA_Alum&Dad"Your points about the hypocrisy of the
"research institution" meme as the reason for no invite to the PAC for
BYU is exactly right. WSU/OSU/ASU? Please."Well..."Arizona State, for instance, has only made strides to become a bona fide
research institution in recent years and still doesn't have a medical
school or a university publishing house."ASU is not a research
institution nor a medical school, nor anything of the like. Anyone
touting that ALL PAC-12 schools fit some specific mold is only kidding
themselves. Interestingly, I've only heard it from Utah fans who are
countering the PAC-12 religious bigotry. Sorry, but as a fan of ASU (not the
PAC-12), the religious bigotry is there, but not just in the PAC-12, it's
in most (if not all) of the institution of 'higher learning'.
This just in from bleacher report, Bronco listed as one of the WORST coaches
against top 25 teams. Bronco, out of the 82 games he has won as a head coach has
ONLY won 5 games! A ticket to the Big 12 would not be a walk in the park.Cold Hard Facts BYU fans.
This "we belong" jargon is getting old. The reason why BYU is not in a
P5 conference is simple; after looking at the Pro's and Con's of
inviting BYU to join a conference it's obvious that there are more
con's. If there were more pro's, they would have been invited
already. It's not academics, it's not culture, it's not
athletics, it is simply the sum of all the parts do not add enough benefits to
invite BYU. One can speculate why BYU has not been invited but any speculation
is just that, speculation. The athletic directors and presidents of these P5
schools are not dumb or ignorant. If they felt that BYU would improve their
conference, they would no doubt bring them in. They have done the research and
the conclusion by both the BIg12 and Pac12 is that BYU is not worth an invite.
So go ahead and spew all your facts that you belong, it creates good commentary
but it will not change the fact that you are still sitting at the kids table.
I intend to text, phone, or write 12 questions (actually the same question to
the 12 coaches) for responses at the media days eventie. to Coach
Sonny Dykes of University of California. "Coach Dykes. Dick
Harmon, a columnist for the Deseret News who covers BYU athletics said in an
article last Monday, "Pac-12 presidents may struggle with BYU because they
can’t share a pre-game cocktail" Do you think President Napolitano
would have a problem with BYU because she can't share a pre-game cocktail
as Mr. Harmon suggests?"
Kralon knows of what he speaks..."... beefing up UCLA's
schedule, but I had to laugh when I saw Rutgers! I know they are a P5 school but
they must be very near if not the bottom of all P5 schools. Sports Illustrated
listed the odds of 51 teams winning the national championship in the coming
season and Rutgers was 1000/1 (BYU was the only Utah school and was
150/1)."My personal estimate is that more than one-half (33 of
65) P5 schools have mid-major quality football programs. So I am
not at all surprised that BYU is the only Utah school getting any "line
play" (pun intended) in SI's listing of the odds.Seems like
the money men recognize my previous assertion: Utah will NEVER win the
PAthetiC-12 and thus will NEVER win a National Championship.
"Call it a mutual aid society of football: You help us, we’ll help
you."------Huh??? Mutual aid implies both parties benefit and
I'm not seeing how the Pac 12 schools benefit from playing a non Power 5
team. The Pac 12 is keeping BYU alive at this point. The Cougars need the Pac
schools much, much, much more than they need the Cougs. You're
killing me Dick!!
Ute fans would be better served focusing on the Utes and less on their
"past" rival.BYU has made it clear they want to be a P5
program, but is also not willing to give up its extremely valuable TV
situation--BYUTV, whose most popular product, btw, are BYU sports.When the next reassignment comes, BYU will either be included in the power
conferences or join a long list of private schools that sue the pants off of the
P5 State-sponsored schools for anti-trust practices--and win.
@Well . . .Your points about the hypocrisy of the "research
institution" meme as the reason for no invite to the PAC for BYU is exactly
right. WSU/OSU/ASU? Please. It is the cultural divide, in
spades. Anyone who wants to pretend otherwise is free to do so, but be advised
how ridiculous you sound trying to convince anyone else.
@Well...."Power 5 politics aren't about research and never
were" I don't believe anyone ever said Power 5 politics are about
research. However, the PAC-12 is very much about academics and research. I
won't use generalities, as you have, I will use facts.The two top
rating agencies of world universities are Times Higher Education World
University Rankings and QS World Universities Ranking. 2013-2014 results are
summarized here:Times Higher identifies 11 of 12 members in the top 350
world universities (Oregon and BYU are not listed) Utah is #143, Colorado #97
and Arizona State #146. The top 9 schools are ranked in the top 61 of US.
(Utah is #60!); QS rankings similar (generally not as high world rankings) with
11 of 12 ranked in top 85 US (Utah 271 World and 62 US) with Oregon in 551-600
grouping World and BYU in 701+ (who knows how high + is?)What a
conference! Utah, in the middle third of conference belongs!
Who cares about being in a P-5 conference. If the big boys of college football
want to create new rules that put the smaller schools at a disadvantage - let
em. I honestly think that BYU will better thrive outside a P-5 conference. BYU
will not gain a significant enough advantage in recruiting in a P-5 conference
to make it competitive. If you don't believe me - look at the mess Utah
and TCU are in right now. They will be like greyhound dogs at the racetrack -
always chasing the rabbit but never able to catch it.
"Some Cougar fans got their undies tangled"Obviously
Harmon's have been tangled since Utah's invite. But that has fueled
his enthusiasm for playing the Y's house organ.
"Cultural differences" = Prop 8 killed byu's chance at joining the
PAC which just shows if you behave in a certain manner, you're going to
have to pay the price.
Spokane UteSpokane, WAAh, thank you for a reasoned, reasonable
critical comment.The conclusions may be debatable, and my friend, I
will always enjoy debeting them with you, but the evidence is overwhelming.Whether or not BYU will ever succeed in cajoling an invitation to the
P-5, will forever be an ignition point along the Wasatch Front. I will admit to
being a card carrying, kool-aid drinking blue-bleeding cougar fan. In my
wildest fanciful daydreams, I imagine another undefeated season. One with just
enough gravitas to force inclusion into the play-off picture.Because
that would mean at least two P-5 champions would not be included. Wouldn't
it be deliciously ironic if it were the SEC and ACC?And only once
did I imagine it would be the PAC. In a year that Utah won it. Because
apparently that would have to be a year that they didn't play BYU.Me and Walter Mitty.
BYU's ability to schedule P5 schools doesn't seem to be that big of a
deal. They have lined up some good teams in the coming years. Having a 65,000
seat stadium is a nice selling point. It's the bowl tie in, or lack there
of, that's a killer.
The PAC 12 let us in their conference because we will win it.Every
year our record gets good.
Several of you jeering about BYU as a supposedly fictitious research institution
and saying that's why it doesn't stack up among the Power 5 need to
double-check your facts about several Power 5 schools. Arizona
State, for instance, has only made strides to become a bona fide research
institution in recent years and still doesn't have a medical school or a
university publishing house. Also check out Oregon State's and Washington
State's statuses as "research institutions" sometime and see if the
"paper-thin" academic profile fits them even *better* than BYU. (BYU,
for its part, has never claimed to be a top-flight research institution, though
as its undergraduate education profile has become stronger, its research has
improved.) For that matter, how strong top-to-bottom are the graduate
programs/research quality at Oklahoma State? 'Bama? LSU? Louisville? Pitt?
Nebraska? Power 5 politics aren't about research and never
were--they're about football. Period. Not academics, not cultural
compatibility (though it makes for a convenient excuse in some cases), and not
even any other sport. Football's the tail wagging the dog, and research and
academics are only afterthoughts. Don't kid yourselves otherwise.
Pac-12 presidents may struggle with BYU because they can’t share a
pre-game cocktail, Enough is enough! Let's get to the bottom
of this. PAC-12 media days are this Wednesday and Thursday. There will be
national media coverage and every school will be represented. Let's see
the Deseret News and/or Salt Lake Tribune ask each school. Point blank...
"Is the President of your university one who struggles with BYU because your
president can't share a pre-game cocktail?" Don't let them
quibble or be evasive... great journalism can probe to the bottom and get the
answer and hold those president accountable.That's assuming the
Deseret News will cover this event. It would mean their sports writers may not
be able to write their daily Fredette watch report.. or how this may be the year
for a former or current ball player.. or any of the other articles meant only to
keep BYU in the news regardless of how noteworthy the subject might be.If you guys won't do it... maybe the associated press should press for
Wow, another independence works article on scheduling. Wake up call, check
BYU's schedule the last three years, and this year, the fourth in
independence? It's extremely weak. On average, BYU has three
legit games each year. It's not that much different from the MWC days for
Utah and BYU right?. Wrong, the games outside those three games are far down in
quality from even the Mountain West. Since independence, BYU has played or will
play; Idaho, Idaho State, Middle Tennessee State, Savannah State, New Mexico
State, San Jose State, Weber State, Tulsa, Utep, Nevada, UNLV, Connecticut, and
so on. Some of those games were even bowl opponents. Plus outside a few good
games, the middle tier opponents aren't noticeable names either (UCF
Knights, Hawaii, San Diego State, Houston ect..) Now look at the other BCS type
opponents. Outside of Texas, Wisconsin and Notre Dame (independent), the rest
are bottom feeder conference teams; Ole Miss, Oregon State, Georgia Tech,
Washington State, Virginia, and California. But we also have Utah and TCU who
now have losing records in BCS conferences yet beat BYU most every year in the
MWC. BYU does have Boise State (now minus Chris Petersen).
On one hand..."It's great to travel all over the country, exposure,
different stadiums! blah blah blah.On the other hand...The PAC 12 is
a natural fit because it's so close.The spin never stops. lol.
BYU shouldn't care if the ACC and SEC would count the game as mid-major.
So what? Schedule them anyway! It counts as a P5 game on BYU's schedule.
The worst thing is to repeat the lie that the ACC and SEC won't schedule
BYU at all.
"Pac-12 presidents may struggle with BYU because they can’t share a
pre-game cocktail," Pay attention any conference or whatever
considering BYU. This is typical of the type of coverage and mindset associated
with BYU! The fans are spoon fed this and they soak it up!
The Utes have moved on to greener pastures! We are going to win the Rose Bowl
this year hands down! Go Pac 12!
I wish BYU and my Ducks would schedule some games. That'd be fun.ManInTheMiddle, please tell me you're kidding right. Colorado is an AAU
school with a Big 12 championship and a national championship. BYU will never be
in the PAC12 because they aren't AAU or tier 1 in research and because they
are religious and won't play on Sundays. My Perspective, some
good points, but if you don't think BYU's culture hurts their chances
for inclusion, you're truly naive. Just as BYU will never be in the PAC12,
no religious school ever will regardless of research status. Sad but true.
Mr. Harmon,What a writer! You say, "Pac-12 presidents may
struggle with BYU because they can’t share a pre-game cocktail," My
thoughts of you cannot be expressed because of the censorship issues. Why not
tell it like it is? The resentment of BYU by some PAC-12 schools lies in the
social issues of the sponsoring institution ie. Prop 8, academic freedom, etc.
As far as a "cocktail", I know at the BYU hospitality room at the
Holiday Bowl such drinks were not visible but were available upon request (At
least that is what one professional who provided services to the BYU team said.)
@myperspective"On the other hand, if you are still pushing the
"bigot" refrain...shame on you."-----------Wow, half the posts on this BYU article are you. Interesting...As
for your comment, has that issue disappeared all of a sudden or something? Did
it magically disappear or go away? Are the California schools all chummy now
with the Mormon Church?
You left off the best part of the article:"Of course, this only
helps the Bruins if they win these games. UCLA’s last visit to Provo
(2008) resulted in a 59-0 loss."
If articles like this cause you such angst noperspective then why do you read
them? Glutton for punishment is all I can deduce. lol
Is the rumor that the Utes used their influence to get BYU all those games? That
was certainly nice of them.
"BYU has scheduled at least 19 games with Pac-12 teams through 2025, and
that doesn’t included games expected to be under contract with
Utah"So does that mean the Pac12 is a lower tier p5 conference
since they have no problem scheduling games with BYU? Apparently then this means
there's a separation or class system within the p5 structure and the Pac12
is in the bottom half behind the SEC, ACC, etc?
The PAC 12 won't let us in their conference because we would win it.Every year.
Yay!!! Another moral victory for BYU. They were mentioned in an article BEFORE
Oklahoma, LSU, AND Michigan. It doesn't get much better than that!
Perhaps at some point the Pac 12 will admit that picking Colorado was a mistake.
Perhaps Colorado gets kicked out and BYU replaces them? Seems that BYU is a
much better fit for the PAC 12.....
Finally..."The Pac-12 presidents and chancellors may never
include BYU because of “cultural differences...” If by
"cultural differences" you mean...-Not a research institution-No medical school-byu's paper thin portfolio of graduate and PhD
programsYou are correct. On the other hand, if you are
still pushing the "bigot" refrain...shame on you.
"The reaction in Utah was predictable. Some Cougar fans got their undies
tangled running to their minivans. Some radio talking heads jacked it up as a
sign BYU was now and forever definitely a Power 5 conference outsider and it was
the end of the world." Of course, the local media had no
responsibility in the condition you describe. Sheesh! "In the
meantime, Holmoe was puzzled. What was the big deal? He still talks contracts
with SEC and ACC folks as an independent contractor." Really?
Holmoe has never attempted to schedule them before...not with any regularity, at
least. Further, if it wasn't important, why did Holmoe make the effort to
meet with them? Holmoe's goal, as reported by you, was to get the ACC and
SEC to recognize byu as a P5 team. Epic failure. And now you claim that Holmoe
didn't understand why there was concern.All you have done here
is take a different perspective on the stories you have already written and
attempted to pass it off as a new development. Nothing has changed here, Dick.
Your cougs are not a part of the Big12, the Pac-12, or any other conference.
And now it's time to let cougar-ville know that everything is ok. Cue Dick
Harmon..."One can probably remember those couple of weeks this
past spring when ACC and SEC commissioners told reporters those league’s
wouldn’t recommend BYU as a non-conference game to fill out
schedules...And the Pac-12 is more than willing to work with the Cougars and
their independent scheduling needs."Dick, the SEC and ACC
didn't say they wouldn't play byu, they said that a game with byu
doesn't satisfy their new requirement of an out of conference P5 team.
Thus, byu is labeled as a mid-major by the SEC and ACC. As for the
Pac-12, each team in that elite conference already plays 9 P5 teams and are free
to schedule any mid-major they want (including byu). The Pac-12 hardly cares
about byu's "independent scheduling needs." How can you write
something like this after unabashedly proclaiming the Pac-10 schools to be
"Bruins have added Texas A&M, Oklahoma, Fresno State, San Diego State,
Rutgers, LSU and Michigan through 2023"I know the title of the
article said beefing up UCLA's schedule, but I had to laugh when I saw
Rutgers! I know they are a P5 school but they must be very near if not the
bottom of all P5 schools. Sports Illustrated listed the odds of 51 teams winning
the national championship in the coming season and Rutgers was 1000/1 (BYU was
the only Utah school and was 150/1).