@Laura Ann "God has pretty much told us his answer to the question of gay
marriage. It is wrong. Just read the Bible." Perhaps you should
communicate with God yourself, you may get better answers. I don't
remember seeing any religious book such as the Bible or the Quran/Koran having
God's signature. :>)
@Mr. Bean and @WTZIs there something in Arizona that is affecting your all
or nothing thinking about marriage? You think marriage equality should be
applied to siblings, family generation? You may as well throw in animals just to
spice it up a bit. :>) Why not think a little harder and you
may see that marriage equality is for adults that are not related and who are
able to think such as reading, writing, and answering questions at the marriage
license bureaus. I assume they have some in Arizona. :>)
@USU-Logan:"You have nothing to offer but slippery slop
fallacy."I use to feed my pet pig some slop. And on occasion it
was even slippery.Stormwalker"If there is an attack on
marriage, it is the rigid gender roles, stereotypes, and father knows best
attitude from the 40s and 50s and 60s that conservative religious types are
trying to insist should still be the norm."I take your point...
there are thousands of polygamists who will welcome the SSM decision knowing
full well that they are next. Then comes sibling, parent/child, etc.,
marriages."If there is an attack on marriage it is women
realizing that they can be intelligent and independent, not dependent and
subordinate."Most women realize they are not subordinate in one
of the most fundamental human powers... sexual attraction."In
other words, equality."When is equal not equal?@Happy Valley Heretic:"...wrz, you have used that argument many
times, and had the difference explained to you at length with details."Try it again. I need a good laugh.
The Government should get out of the marriage business all together. The
government had no right to tell the LDS church to end plural marriages.
@Laura Ann: "God has pretty much told us his answer to the question of gay
marriage. It is wrong. Just read the Bible."God told us the
answer to many things that modern Christians completely ignore. Apply the rules
in the Bible to your own life. All the rules, all the time. Then talk to me
about my life.(Since the full response I posted earlier was
approved, got 10 likes and was then disapproved and removed we will try this
The LDS Church proclaims in Doctrine and Covenants that it supports a separation
of church and state. LDS Doctrine decrees that the right for a person to choose
is one of the most precious gifts guaranteed in the Plan of Salvation.Is
the LDS Church bask-pedaling on it's own doctrines? Is the State of Utah
trying to avoid it's responsibility to the Union?What's at stake
here IS the involvement of the LDS Church into politics. The leaders of the LDS
church are guilty of hypocrisy.Who will be injured IF SSM is allowed? How
will the LDS Church be injured if SSM is allowed?
Mr. Bean & wrz, you have used that argument many times, and had the
difference explained to you at length with details.I feel sorry for folks
who have such a hard time with right and wrong, vs equality, religion is
probably a good choice for you.
@Mr. Bean: "The attack is almost imperceptible."This sounds
like: "the best evidence of a conspiracy is an absolute lack of
evidence." Rowan Atkinson's Mr. Bean was never that subtle. More of a
Monty Python satire.If there is an attack on marriage, it is the
rigid gender roles, stereotypes, and father knows best attitude from the 40s and
50s and 60s that conservative religious types are trying to insist should still
be the norm. If there is an attack on marriage it is women realizing that they
can be intelligent and independent, not dependant and subordinate.In
other words, equality.One of the best things that is and will come
from SSM is the realization that roles within a relationship are actually about
personality, ability, and who does what best. Not about gender.
@wrzPlease read the post of 'equal protection' first.You have nothing to offer but slippery slop fallacy.I
already told you to read the ruling of 10th circuit court, it explains well. but
you said you could not find such explanation. so let me say more clearly:Please google and download the pdf file and read judges' rebuttal
to slippery slop fallacy, it is on Page 63.
Slippery Slope Logical Fallacy.In logic and critical thinking, a
slippery slope is a logical device, but it is usually known under its fallacious
form, in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from
another without any rational argument or demonstrable mechanism for the
inevitability of the event in question. The core of the slippery slope argument
is that a specific rule or course of action is likely to result in unintended
consequences and that these "unintended consequences" are undesirable
(and, typically, worse than either inaction or another course of remediation). -
@FT:"If you believe God played a role in forming our constitution then
you should also realize that our government has to support equality for
all."I think you're making an excellent point... equality
for all. For all types of marriages... polygamy, siblings, parent/child,
grandfather/granddaughter, you name it. Frankly, I'd like to marry the
couple next door. I can only now just dream of the myriad of benefits that
would accord not only me but them as well.But, maybe you didn't
mean these other types of marriages in your 'equality for all'
comment. Just SSM, true?
@Baccus0902""I regret the stain the State of Utah and the Church
are bringing upon themselves."Your 'stain' comment is
misdirected. I'd explain but the monitor would more than likely deny the
post.@Bob K:"...the longer the debate goes on, more and
more reasonable folks are accepting that there will be marriage
equality."I should hope so. I'm getting sick and tired of
not being able to marry my mother.And my siblings are just as
anxious to finally get to marry each other. And my polygamist neighbors are
chomping at the bit. Liberation day appears to be just around the corner.@Utefan60:"I have yet to see one attack on 'traditional
marriage' in any comment that anyone has ever made in this paper."The attack is almost imperceptible. The eventuality is that it
(marriage) will totally disappear. Maybe that's a good thing... but not
for a society that prides itself in civility.Once SSM is approved,
all other marriage combinations will follow suit... siblings, parent/child,
polygamists, etc. If these other aberrations of marriage are not also approved,
the courts will have introduced lawful and legal marriage discrimination.
I agree with the Governor, that not granting a stay will create moral chaos and
that SSM is a affront to the sovereignty and dignity to the people of Utah.
I agree with Judge Dale Kimball's decision to recognize the legal marriages
performed in Utah. The state will have a hard time showing a valid reason to
extend the stay.From Judge Kimball's decision:"Although the state has a general interest in representing the wishes of
its voters, that interest does not outweigh the harms [same-sex couples] face by
having their constitutional rights violated. Governor Gary Herbert and Attorney
General Sean Reyes shall immediately recognize the marriages by same-sex couples
entered pursuant to Utah marriage licenses issued and solemnized between
December 20, 2013, and January 6, 2014, and afford these same-sex marriages all
the protections benefits and responsibilities given to all marriages under Utah
law.""The state has placed [same-sex couples] and their families
in a state of legal limbo with respect to adoptions, child care and custody,
medical decisions, employment and health benefits, future tax implications,
inheritance, and many other property and fundamental rights associated with
marriage. These legal uncertainties and lost rights cause harm each day that the
marriage is not recognized."
People opposed to SSM still fall back on the only argument they have left,
religon. If you believe God played a role in forming our constitution then you
should also realize that our goverment has to support equality for all. Your
religon nor yourself have to recognize SSM as legitmate in the eys of God but
our society does. To do otherwise is unconstituional.
Mainly MeYou wrote: " What stain? You mean the stain for
standing up for what is right?"Throughout our history we have
had people hurting other people because they were following "rules and
laws". They were doing what theyr were supposed to do, it din't mean it
was "right".Proposition 3 hurts individuals, couples,
families and children. What is right with that?You are going to tell
me that is god's will. Well, I am not sure the crimes committed in the name
of God are less criminal than those committed for other reason.
Now if all the "traditional Marriages" in Utah were going to be
dissolved then I could see the urgency in this matter. But again where have
traditional marriages been attacked? Really where? I have yet to see
one attack on "traditional marriage" in any comment that anyone has ever
made in this paper.
@Laura Ann: "I find it so arrogant that people think they can tell God the
rules."What is arrogant is to assume one "knows" the
rules sourced from a supernatural being. What is arrogant is the
religious tyranny of a church that tells people who are not members how they
should live.What is arrogant is a group of people once persecuted
for their unusual beliefs and practices persecuting others for THEIR beliefs and
God has pretty much told us his answer to the question of gay marriage. It is
wrong. Just read the Bible. I find it so arrogant that people think they can
tell God the rules. Of course, if you don't believe in the God of the
Bible, I can see why you think gay marriage isn't such a bad thing.
I'm proud of this state for defending traditional marriage. I hope the
Supreme Court hears this case.
How will this affect Utahns?I am glad for all of you that the State
insists on getting this settled, but I don't see much chance of it going
their way.My thoughts: 1- the longer the debate goes on, more
and more reasonable folks are accepting that there will be marriage equality.2- there is danger that the lds and the State will suffer more loss of
reputation due to dragging it out.3- We all know that marriage-based lds
culture may face some kind of adjustment, when the non-lds Gays are marrying,
but the Gays in lds families, raised to expect to marry, cannot.When, in all likelihood, SCOTUS tells Utah it must give equal rights, I know
that God will help the State and the lds find their way.
@Red Corvette"There is something ironic about waiting until the
last moment to file an "emergency" petition. But then again, it is
Utah."Growing up in Salt Lake I was always told Mormons could
never be on time to anything. The joke was that Utah had Mountain Standard Time,
Mountain Daylight Savings Time, and Mormon Time. Guess there is some truth to
@Mainly Me"...but it matters to the Church."The court
only orders state government must recognize those 1300+ same sex marriage, not
church. so your concern is unnecessary.
@Baccus0902What stain? You mean the stain for standing up for what
is right? Not right in the eyes of this sick world, but right in the eyes of
God? It doesn't matter to progressives what is morally right in the eyes
of God, but it matters to the Church.
Even though Utah's appeals is misguided, I applaud the tenacity and speed
the AG office is using to resolve this issue as soon as possible.I
regret the stain the State of Utah and the Church are bringing upon themselves.