Air: Fail! Your analogy falls apart for at least 3 reasons.1)
You don't need a license to OWN a car.2) You don't need a DL to
drive a car (or other motorized vehicle) on private property.3) Keeping
and driving motorized vehicles is NOT guaranteed by the Constitution.
MountanmanHayden, IDUsing YOUR analogy - drunk driving.In order to drive, You MUST have a License.In order to
get that -- ALL AMERICANS -- 100%, NO exceptions...You must be
found both Physically and Mentally competant,are required to complete
training, Tested - written, and practical, You are 1st given a
learners permit - with all sorts of "restrictions",If you
abuse or misuse that priveldge -- You LOOSE that priveldge, and can
go to jail. If you want to make guns like driving, I'm
100% cool with that -- In fact, that's what I've been
pushing for for YEARS!
jsfCenterville, UTDriver charged with DUI Marijuana after deadly
crash in Vancouver•11:22 a.m. July 16, 2014[1. Vancouver is in
CANADA, not Utah. 2. Marijuana is legal in CANADA, and DUI is illegal,
even in Canada.]Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahJust
wait, Obama and his anti-gun propaganda machine will soon declare that anyone
who keeps a firearm in his home is mentally ill. [Mike – Obama is
NOT coming to get your guns.]@Mountanman"In Switzerland,
for example, people are required by law to own a gun and yet they have the
lowest crime rate in the world! Proving guns do not cause crime and gun laws are
worthless to stop crime!"[Switzerland is also SOCIALIST -- And
Military enlistment is 100% required. But thanks for proving MY point that
Socialist countries in many areas can be far better improvement over the good
Mountain Man is demonstrating that Idaho education he received. So many low
information voters are making the progress in sensible gun control so difficult!
The CDC data show, more than 200 people go to U.S. emergency rooms every day
with gunshot wounds.Gun deaths by homicide, suicide or accident
peaked at 37,666 in 1993 before declining to a low of 28,393 in 2000, the data
show. Since then the total has risen to 31,328 in 2010, an increase of 2,935, or
eight more victims a day.Mountanman said: "33,580 fatalities are
still far more than get killed by firearms."Not that far.
@Mountanman"In Switzerland, for example, people are required by law to
own a gun and yet they have the lowest crime rate in the world! Proving guns do
not cause crime and gun laws are worthless to stop crime!"Switzerland also has a universal gun registration and strict laws regarding
the handling of firearms and required training. I'm honestly not sure if
Switzerland has the lowest crime rates, but I know it's one of the lowest
alongside many countries with very strict gun control and low gun ownership
rates in Western Europe. What this should be an example of is that rather than
total regulation or total deregulation, more guns or less guns, what we need is
smart gun regulation. Most of western Europe seems to have figured out various
combinations that work well even though they're very different from each
other (Germany, Switzerland, etc).
@ Frozen Fractals: You are right, my first number was a typo on my part! My
apologies and please drive safely! 33,580 fatalities are still far more than get
killed by firearms. In Switzerland, for example, people are required by law to
own a gun and yet they have the lowest crime rate in the world! Proving guns do
not cause crime and gun laws are worthless to stop crime! Its bad PEOPLE with
guns and the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is by a good guy having and
using a gun! Please support the 2nd Amendment! Your life, and your safety is at
Mike, may I assume that your insistence that WE are in charge of our own choices
applies only to men, and certainly not to women who could legally choose
abortions according to SCOTUS during the last 40 years?
@intellectual"Does the LDS church allow missionaries to carry a gun?
In the U.S of course."I doubt it. Carrying guns in meetinghouses
isn't allowed (it's in the handbook) and having a gun on BYU's
campus is an Honor Code violation.@Mountainman" 92
fatalites each day times 365 days= 33,580 fatalities per year! The first time I
did the math in my head and was off by 80 people!"Your first
comment said 350,000 fatalities per year. That's an error of 316,420
@jsf"Do we not get told often that the Koch brothers tell us
cigarettes don't kill. The lying scientists promoting a internal killer.
Now we are told smoking marijuana doesn't kill. "There's a difference between liver disease and drunk driving. One is
solely a result of alcohol, the other is influenced by alcohol but involves
other things as well (like the decision to drive when one shouldn't have).
When people claim that marijuana doesn't kill, they're generally
referring to the medical aspect of it (while I'm skeptical of the claim,
it's obviously way safer on that front than cigarettes), equivalents of
lung cancer or liver disease for tobacco/alcohol.
@jsfThe problem with that research is marijuana is detectable in
your system around 30 day's while alcohol, meth, coke, heroin, you know all
the safe drugs, are clear in 2 days from blood or urine, alcohol is hours, so
one doesn't need be intoxicated on marijuana to get a DUI, this inflates
the actual numbers. Imagine for a minute that if you got your buzz on a weekend
at the beginning of the month, you could get a DUI weeks later while completely
MM, you need to work on your reading comprehension. Read my post again. You
missed an important detail.I have seen the results of drunk driving
too many times. We have laws that try to control it. Why can't we have
laws to try to control possession of guns by people who should not have them.The Second Amendment DOES NOT guarantee unlimited gun rights. We just
choose to ignore a very important part of it. A part our Founding Fathers must
have included for some good reason. That part about "a well regulated
militia."You also need to brush up on your math. The extra zero
in your numbers make a big difference. About 30 per day are killed by guns. 30
x 365 = 10,950. The National Safety Council says that 35,200 died in traffic
accidents. Far too many, but does it make any sense at all for you to try to
tell us that 1/3 of that number is somehow acceptable?Nonsense!
@ Roland Kayser and airunaut: Wikipedia: "On average in 2012, 92 people were
killed on the roadways of the U.S. each day in 30,800 fatal crashes." 92
fatalites each day times 365 days= 33,580 fatalities per year! The first time I
did the math in my head and was off by 80 people! I therefore stand by my
comment! Drive safely!
10CC,It's true that humanity has a lot of suicides. I do not agree
that you need to be "Mentally Ill" to commit suicide. Some are just
drunk, or depressed, or trying to punish somebody else, or just suffering too
much to take it anymore.Are we going to take away people's 2nd
amendment rights if they drink (EVER)? Because you never know when it will
happen. No 2nd amendment rights if you have ever had depression? Even once??
Because that's were it could go IF we give you your liberal definition of
"mentally ill".Fact is... the government just doesn't
know our mental status every day of our lives. We could be just fine 364 days
of the year. The government doesn't have a way to monitor us that closely
(Yet). So... should we take away ALL guns?... because everybody
has a POSSIBILITY of being depressed, or drinking alcohol, or just getting fed
up and not wanting to live anymore? Because that's where your anybody who
commits suicide is "Mentally ill", and anybody can commit suicide...
logic leads us...Parents and family know your daily mental status
better (not the politburo).
I have a question;Does the LDS church allow missionaries to carry a
gun? In the U.S of course. They are vulnerable and maybe they should to
I have a hard time being able to trust anyone that carries a gun. The police
are the exception of course.
Just wait, Obama and his anti-gun propaganda machine will soon declare that
anyone who keeps a firearm in his home is mentally ill. They are already
stigmatizing anyone who eats at a fast food restaurant. When
citizens will not stand up for the Constitution; when citizens get caught up in
Obama's divisiveness; when citizens demand that government control their
lives; those citizens have abdicated their responsibility to limit the scope and
the authority of government. If anyone doubts what I've just
written, they can dust off their copy of the Constitution and start reading.
I'll help you out by giving you the first words of the Constitution:
"We the People of the United States,"We are in charge.We are responsible to limit the scope and the authority of
government.We are responsible to see that Obama keeps his oath of
office.We are responsible to see that each guaranteed freedom is
kept free from ANY infringement.Those who want government control of
our lives are living in the wrong country.
Utah has a very high suicide rate.84% of gun deaths in Utah are
suicides.I think most rational people would agree that those who are
attempting suicide are not in their right mind - they are, by definition,
mentally ill.Sri Lanka used to have the highest suicide rate in the
world, with the preferred method being an unregulated pesticide. When the Sri
Lankan government more tightly regulated the pesticide, the suicide rate fell by
50%. Experts who study this morbid phenomenon have discovered the impulse to
kill oneself often passes.How do we even attempt to prevent the
mentally ill from acquiring guns, or take their guns away from them? If we do nothing, we're (tacitly) admitting the lives of suicide victims
are not worth saving.
In Utah consumption is illegal but on a national level researchers from Columbia
University’s Mailman School of Public Health have reported that fatal DUI
accidents involving marijuana have tripled during the previous decade. Although alcohol contributed to about the same percentage of traffic
fatalities, about 40 percent, drugs were shown to be twice as prevalent in
traffic fatalities in 2010 than in 1999. Of the drug involved,
marijuana proved to be the main drug involved in the increase, contributing to
12 percent of the 2010 accidents compared with 4 percent in 1999.“Currently, one of nine drivers involved in fatal crashes would test
positive for marijuana,” said co-author Dr. Guohua Li, director of the
Center for Injury Epidemiology and Prevention at Columbia. "fyi
-- killed by marijuana -- ZERO" Do we not get told often that the Koch
brothers tell us cigarettes don't kill. The lying scientists promoting a
internal killer. Now we are told smoking marijuana doesn't kill. Ammonia levels were up to 20 times higher in marijuana smoke than in
tobacco smoke. Levels of hydrogen cyanide and nitrogen-related chemicals were
three to five times higher Driver charged with DUI Marijuana after
deadly crash in Vancouver
@jsfCenterville, UT...but wait was it not a military trained
person in Logan, was it not a police man with his service revolver that shot his
family.10:13 a.m. July 16, 2014======== But
wait -- Aren't you and your ilk the one who keep insisting that the
MENTALLY ill can not have their 2nd ammendment rights infringed?
@Mountanman"Americans have a 1 in 514,147 chance of being killed by
“firearms discharge."Considering we have around 300
million people and around 10,000 deaths each year by firearms, it would be
around 1 in 30,000 each year as the odds of dying from a gun and something like
1 in 75,000 if we removed suicide-by-gun. 1 in 514,147 sounds like the odds of
accidental gunshot wounds (unless I'm playing Oregon Trail in which case I
swear it's 1 in 40). "On average in 2012, 92 people were
killed on the roadways of the U.S. EACH DAY in 30,800 fatal crashes. That's
about 350,000 people a year!"92 deaths per day * 365 days... if
we round those up to 100*400 that would be 40,000 people a year, not 350,000
people a year. You even said 30,800 fatal crashes, why would you think an
average fatal crash kills 11 people each?
one old man implies Those people who chose to drink alcohol usually kill only
themselves, unless they drive a car. "But when someone takes an assault
rifle with a high-capacity magazine into a store or school, their targets were
not able to choose." The other vehicle had a choice from a DUI? The
pedestrian killed by a DUI had a choice? Segee, Robert Dale, 1944,
167 Unknown arsonist, 1958, 100González, Julio, 1990, 87, Graham, Jack Gilbert, 1955, 44 Doty, Thomas G., 1962, 44 Gonzales,
Francisco Paula, 1964, 43,Burke, David Augustus, 1987, 42 Frank, Julian
Andrew, 1960, 33de la Torre, Humberto Diaz, 1982, 24Álvarez, Juan
Manuel, 2005, 11 595 people killed in mass killings and not one shot
MountanmanHayden, IDYou math is so off the charts wrong, it's not even worth correcting...==== As for both
you and Mike...Utahns killed annually in order -- 1.
Overdose by LEGAL drugs2. Guns3. Automobiles fyi --
killed by marijuana -- ZERO.
If we outlaw personal ownership of autos, the auto related deaths will
disappear. The arguments for gun control If the supporters of gun
control on the basis of deaths from gun shots are honest, they would be fighting
to outlaw personal ownership of autos. But since they do not, one must conclude
the gun ownership issue is for other reasons.We will get the
argument only military trained people should be allowed to own guns, but wait
was it not a military trained person in Logan, was it not a police man with his
service revolver that shot his family.
To Mountanman: Your figure is off by a factor of 10. In 2012, 34,000 Americans
died in motor vehicle accidents. In 2011 the figure was 33,000
Google "Firearm Deaths in Utah - Utah Department of Health"...Notice by far the biggest part of the pie-chart, (84.3%) of Utah gun deaths
were "suicide"/intentional. 10.7% were "Homicide/intentional.
"Unintentional", "Undetermined" and "Other"... all the
rest of the categories combined = 5% of the gun deaths in Utah.Comparing traffic-deaths and gun-deaths is apples-to-oranges comparison. One
is mostly accidents. The other is mostly intentional.We can reduce
traffic-deaths by reducing accidents (only 5% of gun-deaths are accidents). We
need another focus to reduce gun-deaths. Like reducing the reason people use
guns for suicide, and for homicide. Just adding gun laws will not end that
tragic trend. It requires a more in depth solution.
Our constitution gives us the right to own a gun. It also enables us to pass
laws to punish those who's gun was used either accidently or on purpose to
cause harm. Our discussion should be more around strict punishment for those
who choose to own a firearm but are careless. I for one would like to see
minimum jail sentences for someone who's gun was used in accidental death,
injury or suicide. Someone is more likely to have someone they love be injured
by their gun than they are to have it used on an intruder. It's a fact, not
having a gun in your house is the safest choice you can make for your family.
The NRA and the gun lobby are trying to sell you a dangerous thing and the
educated and informed are less likely to take the bait.
Those who want to disallow the 2nd Amendment use the 1st Amendment to air their
views. What irony!Some would have us turn into a police state where
we cower in fear, either fearing that the government will do nothing or fearing
that it will replace our God given rights with limited rights from
government.We are free to act. That is called agency. However,
agency requires accountability. We have laws that punish criminals AFTER they
have acted. Those who want government to punish before we have acted are those
who want the government to take away firearms. They would rebel against the
government if they had to get permission from a government official before they
could make public comments.
@ one old man; Never heard of drunk driving where innocent people are killed and
maimed by someone "choosing to drink"? Come on man!@ Roland
Kayser. That "study" was debunked a long time ago! On average in 2012,
92 people were killed on the roadways of the U.S. EACH DAY in 30,800 fatal
crashes. That's about 350,000 people a year!
IMO any time you try to shrink a complex issue like this down into a "Quick
Guide" (especially when you pretend it's about race, gender, age,
politics, where you live, etc)... you don't really add anything of value to
the conversation. You are just looking to divide, and cause contention.
These are the exact demographics politicians constantly try to divide us on. So
I'm going to try not to go there today.Don't let them make
it about "Race".Don't let them turn it into a
"Political" issue.These are two of the biggest tools people
use to divide us, and get people at each other's throats. I say...
don't let him do it!Guns are not about race. Guns are not
about politics. As the Bill of Rights states.. it's a right that shall not
be infringed. For political benefit OR for race baiting.I hope we
can resist going for the division and contention bait deeply implanted in this
"Quick Guide" to such a complex issue... And try to discuss the
complexities, instead of the stock division-angles so conveniently provided by
Just saw a study done by the CDC. In 14 states gun deaths exceed motor vehicle
deaths, Utah is one of them.
Yes, we are worrying about guns. Those people who chose to drink alcohol
usually kill only themselves, unless they drive a car or pick up a gun.But when someone takes an assault rifle with a high-capacity magazine into a
store or school, their targets were not able to choose.The
incredibly inane arguments of the gun lovers are pure nonsense.
Americans have a 1 in 514,147 chance of being killed by “firearms
discharge. Just last week we read about a university study where one in 10
people who drink alochol will die from the effects. Statisically, your chances
of dying from alcohol are 5140 times higher than being killed with a gun, even
in Chicago! We are worrying about guns?