Procu, since you didn't provide any references I found it for you. The Abandoned Areas Ordinance, 5708-1948 at the Wayback Machine
(archived October 28, 2009) defined an "abandoned area" as "any area
or place conquered by or surrendered to armed forces or deserted by all or part
of its inhabitants, and which has been declared by order to be an abandoned
area." All properties in these areas was also declared
‘abandoned’ and the government was authorized to determine what
would be done with this property.Note that important part about
conquering equals "abandoned". That's pretty lame. BTW I now own
your car, because I said so. Give it up.
We side way too much and give way too much to Israel based on some religious
nonsense. They should have to seek their own place in the world.
I heard on the news today that Congress authorized and additional $367,000,000
to rearm Israel.I have some concerns about the power of the Israeli
lobby in Washinton . This in addition to the annual three point two billion
dollars equals almost $3,700,000,000 this year alone.. This is all borrowed
money and no one seems to be concerned. You would think getting
that much money each year they might listen to us a little. A good example
would be stopping building settlements in the occupied lands. While
we are talking about budget cuts in federal programs it seems to be political
suicide to suggest that we cut foreign aid to Israel .Check out the
web site of APIAC. American Israeli Public Affairs Committee and see what they
say they want. I read that AIPAC is the second most powerful lobbying
organization after AARP.At times what is good for America is not
necessarily good for Israel and guess which one wins. Why ?
I think any statement that says "palestinians wants"... deserves to be
ignored from that point forward, just as any like statement about Israelis.
Neither of these groups are homogenous, and there is no one way either group
thinks or believes. You have extremist on both sides. Those who lit that
teenage boy alive on fire are just as evil as those who claim they want death to
Israel. The vast majority of average people in both places would be
more than happy with a two state solution. Unfortunately they are not the ones
with the guns."I do not believe the Arab world will ever
recognize or accept the state of Israel. The choice Israel has is to fight or
die."Pure garbage. There are already neighbor nations that
acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Again.... silly extremist language
from our own people does little to bring this to an end. I could just as
easily say all Utahns wish there were no ethnic people in their midst.... it
would be just as equally unjust and unfair.
I do not believe the Arab world will ever recognize or accept the state of
Israel. The choice Israel has is to fight or die. Liberals are spitting into
the wind if any one feels they can negotiate a peace between them which leaves
the state of Israel intact. Can you say Chamberlin and Hitler all over again.
2 bits:You forgot one aspect in your Orem / Provo analogy: If
you're a "Provo-ite" in this situation, why would you keep building
new apartment complexes in Orem?The situation is complex, and the
Palestinians are certainly not without blame, but why in the world would anyone
want to live in Israel? It's more arid than Nevada, you're surrounded
by enemies, the whole region is a powder-keg.I'm not trying to
hand the Palestinians a win here, but from a purely pragmatic standpoint, why
not move somewhere else?I've often thought the Mideast
situation would be a lot better if both the Israelis and Palestinians had more
atheists among them. "This is it, folks, you better make the best of it.
No grand plan, no 72 virgins awaiting you, this is all you get". I don't know for certain, but I think there would be fewer suicide
bombers, and the Israelis would be more likely to find a peaceful existence
somewhere else, where the neighbors aren't bent on your demise.
@2 bits -- Yes, true, but Israel exacerbates the problem when it builds
settlements in Palestinian areas. Procuradorfiscal -- These may be biblical
Hebrew lands, but they have also been Arab lands for just as long, and since
there has been massive migration into Israel from Europe over the past 60-70
years, it's clear that many of these particular Israelis did not live in
the region prior to 1948. The Palestinians have a point, although I don't
like their methods of resolving the issue.
To put it into perspective you can understand... imagine your arch enemy that
wants you gone (not just you, but your children, your fathers, and every one of
your type dead or gone)... lives in Orem/Provo. And they have friends who are
close to getting Nuclear Weapons, which they have promised to use to wipe you
and your family and your country out.The people in Orem are free to
enter your cities for work, school, etc, but often wear bomb vests. But if you
enter Orem unarmed... you would be dead in minutes.Orem's
leaders are constantly breathing out threats to kill you IF they can.Orem daily lobs missiles into your neighborhood, your kid's school, your
office complex.You can't get away. You are surrounded by the
Orem people, and their friends who also want to kill you on all sides.So you hunker down, and be industrious, and focus on defenses. And try not to
make problems (while occasionally punishing the more egregious attacks from
Orem).This is life in Israel. I'm not kidding!
They are that close... and that dedicated to the destruction of Israel!
Re: "The[y] didn't buy the land, they took it."Wrong.Every square inch of land in Judea and Samaria [so-called
"West Bank"] on which settlement is allowed was either purchased, or was
proven to be abandoned, and procured through judicial quiet title action, in
compliance with procedures and protections very similar to those in the US.The few small areas in East Jerusalem in which construction has been
permitted were either purchased or were actually proven to be owned by
successors of Jewish families that were driven or forcibly removed from their
properties by Jordanian civil or religious authorities during the Arab
occupation, without compensation or recognizable due process.It
should also be noted that Arab leaders are so open to the idea that settlement
lands should be bought and paid for, several Arab sellers have been murdered by
fellow Arabs for selling, or being suspected of an intent to sell, property to
Jews.Suggesting some fanciful, unsupported Arab "higher
right" to any part of modern Israel is either misinformed, or is based on
@procuradorfiscalWhat is your explanation / interpretation of what
happened at the King David Hotel? Was that justifiable, in your opinion?
This is what happens when England and the US tempt and help a people take land
from other people. The didn't buy the land, they took it. They could have
paid very handsomely for it by now if they had honesty in their hearts instead
of theft.Not one patriotic American would bow down to a foreign
power and give up your homes willingly, yet you expect Palestinians to do it?
How many rockets would the TEA party have launched?
Re: "Israel brings some of these problems on itself when it sets up a
Palestinian area and then lets Jews build settlements within the area . . .
."Israel never set up a "Palestinian area."
Israel's enemies and the UN did that, at the end of Israel's 1948 war
of independence. It initially gave control to Jordan [hence its former name,
"Transjordan']. But, that was never recognized by Israel, which has
always claimed sovereignty over Eretz Yisrael [Land of Israel], except for the
small area south and west of the Gaza Strip, from the mouth of the River of
Egypt down to Kadesh Barnea, over which it ceded control to Egypt, in their
peace treaty.Gaza was never part of Eretz Yisrael. The so-called
"West Bank" [Judea and Samaria], that the PLO claims it controls, is,
was, and always will be part of the Land of Israel, regardless of who exercises
control over it. Jerusalem [including East Jerusalem] is, was, and always will
be the capital of the Land of Israel, regardless of US, UN, or Arab maps to the
contrary.Don't blame Israel for the UN's mistakes.
Israel brings some of these problems on itself when it sets up a Palestinian
area and then lets Jews build settlements within the area, causing Palestinians
to feel that once again their land is being taken away from them. That said, I
think Israel has the higher ground in that it does not actively try to kill
civilians, whereas that is exactly the point of what Hamas is trying to do. And
from a purely cold-blooded analysis, Israel is our best ally in the region.
Still, since the USA gives Israel hundreds of millions of dollars every year in
aid, I think we should have some input into their humanitarian policies (demand
a stop to new settlements) and should not think Israel should dictate our
foreign policy (as some Republicans seem to think they have a right to do.)
I think happy2bhere put it very succinctly... "If the Muslims put down
their arms, we'd have peace. If the Jews put down their arms, we'd
have genocide".============Several posters said this
started at the end of WWII, when Jews were given a homeland in Jerusalem.
I'm pretty sure there were JEWS in Jerusalem before WWII (hence the
name).========WWII was part. And there have been
significant events SINCE WWII. But it wasn't just WWII!This
conflict goes back to biblical times. I won't go into that angle because
some immediately dismiss it. But I assure you the people referred to in the
Bible as "Israel" and the "Palestinians", or
"Philistines", Greek-Palaistina", Hebrew-pelehsheth", don't
dismiss it.Jerusalem being a refuge for European Jews after WWII was
a big event. But Jews probably inhabited Jerusalem before then (it was kinda
named after them).==============Subsequent expansion.
Google "1948 Arab-Israeli War" and "Six Day War"...Egypt, Jordan, and Syria attacked Israel to take their land. Isreal won...
and took some of THEIR land (West Bank) as a buffer against future invasions.
Borders sometimes change when you lose a war.
Re: "At the conclusion of WW2 the victors decided to . . . mov[e] the
Palestinians from a land they called home."Truth is, a century
before, Jews began making aliyah [in-gathering] to a mostly empty land they had
been forcibly removed from. The parts they reclaimed began to blossom, resulting
in some Arabs immigration from other areas and countries.During and
after WWI, British and French interests enabled and encouraged even more Arab
immigration, while discouraging, even prohibiting Jewish aliyah.Before and during WWII, Muslim leaders stirred up hate against Jews, even
allying with Hitler. Shortly after the war, Jews, who had mostly supported the
Allies, began to seek the independence they had been promised. Unfortunately,
Britain had also promised Israeli Arabs just the opposite. When Israel declared
independence, Britain favored and supported her Arab enemies.After a
hard-fought war for independence, Israel granted, and still upholds, equal
rights for Israeli Arabs. Those that stayed, prospered. Many more were, however,
encouraged, often forced by Palestinian leaders, to evacuate to refugee camps,
with a promise they'd return after Jewish annihilation.Those
are the facts.
Ask yourself this question. As an American, particularly Christian if you are,
which place in the Middle East would you feel most safe to walk around as such?
I wouldn't go near Gaza, West Bank, Syria, Lebennon, and most other
Middle-East Muslim countries. With the exeception of the danger coming from
missiles fired at them, Israel is the only country I'd feel comfortable
being an American in. That should tell you a lot about who is the problem in
the Middle-East. The breakdown on my chart. 97.8 % of the problems of war and
violence there come from the Muslims. If the Muslims put down their arms,
we'd have peace. If the Jews put down their arms, we'd have genocide.
When terrorists flew planes into the World Trade Towers, should we have been
sympathetic to those terrorists? Should the media have told us that terrorists
were doing the right thing?Hamas attacked Israel. Hamas uses
innocent men, women and children as shields. Hamas uses hospitals, schools and
public buildings as launch sites for its rocket attacks. Is that ethical?
Should we sympathize with a "military" that uses innocent people as
shields?If anything, the world press should list the names of every
Hamas leader. It should list the amount of money other countries send to Hamas
to finance their attacks. It should list the percent of money from each barrel
of oil that we buy from the Middle East is forwarded to terrorist activity.Fair reporting tells the facts. It does not sympathize with any side.
Hamas deserves the negative media coverage it is getting.
"just going back to 1994, as if that about covers it??"Unfortunately even going back to 1972 doesn't go far enough back. Go
back to the 30's and 40's when the then Israeli's were using many
of the same tactics as Hamas does not to try to get the then controlling
government out... minus the rockets of course. But there were bombings,
assignations, the whole lot.There is no doubt that Hamas is a bad
operator in the region. Even many palestinians would agree with this. Israel
is in a difficult position here - but no one would or should condone reprisal by
Israelis of setting a teen age boy on fire while still alive. It did nothing
but lower that group who did that act beneath those who killed those three
Israeli teens. We need to be able to call out wrongs no matter what
side does them. Israeli has an undeniable right to defend itself. But as good
friends, we need to also call them out when they step across certain lines.
It is important to remember this battle is part of a war that started in the
1940s. At the conclusion of WW2 the victors decided to give the
Jews a homeland by moving the Palestinians from a land they called home. After 60 years the Jews have the right to defend their land and protect
the citizens. My difficulty is the continuing land grabs through settlements in
the “Occupied Territories” and blocking supplies to Gaza.Ever since I was a child I have known if you back a dog into a corner expect a
fight. Just as if you strip away a person’s humanity by depriving them a
decent life for their children, don’t expect a peaceful life. I have been to Germany and seen the camps. I have worked with and for Jews
and would call many friends including those who lost family in the Holocaust.
Many of them choose to live outside Israel because they do not agree with the
Right Wing Extremists controlling Israel.This War will not end until
the mothers on both sides stop teaching HATE to the toddlers. I saw the same
thing in Irish when I lived in London in the 1970s.
I'm just glad Native Americans don't have the same mindset as the
Palestinians, because it would be ugly, and unending. By comparison, our
conquest of the New World was a Kindergarten birthday party.Arabs
and Jews are related from Abraham, and, personally, I think both groups are
missing the "reasonableness gene". Blowing up hotels and
terrorizing people into leaving their land is pretty much what we all expect
from the Palestinians... but this is what the Jews did - actually led by future
Prime Minister Menachem Begin.In hindsight, after the Halocaust,
when the Jews were offered home lands in Argentina or southern Africa, I wonder
how many of them wish they had taken the much better land deal - without the
perpetual revenge/terrorism.Argentina sounds a whole lot better, at
least to me.
Israel is reacting to Gaza rockets. It did not start this. The reaction is
pinpointing targets whereas the rockets hit here and there with no military
target. Best to move the people in Gaza to another location and allow Israel to
occupy it. Same for the west bank. Jews in the US are 2% of the population yet
awarded one third of the Nobel prizes. Israel has just as much or more right to
live in Israel as the Muslims. This continuous fighting helps no one. 1.5
million Muslims live in Israel.
Frankly neither of the sides are very sympathetic since neither seems to view
sustained peace as something worth achieving.
I wish the graph in the article went back a little further. Seriously... just
going back to 1994, as if that about covers it?? I'm wondering if the
"Percent sympathetic to Palestine" graph goes up... or down.. in 1972
(after the "Munich Massacre") Google it. It's when Palestinian
terrorists took the Israel Olympic team hostage and ended up killing them all...
The 3 surviving hostage takers were later released in exchange for a hijacked
Lufthansa jet (kinda remind you of a more recent story involving America and
terrorists)??Some people don't remember that. I was in High
School. I remember it well. It didn't make me a big Palestine/Hamas
All I can say is USS Liberty.
Israel accepts Egypt's brokered cease fire. Hamas rejects it and fires
another 800 rockets into Israel. Civil Palestinians are caught in the middle.
Hamas then promotes the idea Israel broke the cease fire. If the UN
were to go in, Hamas should be demilitarized and leaders tried for crimes
The bias comes through with a conflation of the death tolls and cheap
demonstrations of victimhood. If a poorly armed militant movement with an
aberrant agenda is unable to kill many of it's targets, then the proper
response is continued condemnation and not a greater effort of understanding.
This is a great opportunity for Americans to stand up for our principles and
condemn Hamas and any organization that explicity targets civilians. If these
cowardly groups that boycott Israel in order to sleep well at night were to
enter any military conflict, they would understand the importance of clear rules
against certain acts of violence. Human history is riddled with wars and
violence and one thing should remain clear - if you are in a position to lose a
war, you had better jump at the chance for diplomacy. Hamas is clearly both
disinterested in diplomacy and international rules of military engagement -
Israel retains the moral high ground in the conflict.
IMO the BIG difference is... All the people of Israel require Hamas to do to
live in peace is for Hamas to do nothing. All Hamas requires is... Every
Israeli citizen to die... preferably in a very painful way.Which
agenda sounds more reasonable???Which one should the USA
support???And IF we support the Hamas agenda... how should we do it?
With lethal gas, rockets, or nukes???
Re: "Is the media too biased on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?"That's like asking, "Is the Pope Catholic?"Of
course the media is too biased. Hamas shoots hundreds of missiles and mortar
rounds at innocent Israeli civilians, and all the media can do is chant that
Israel is endangering women and children when they target launchers and
warehouses Hamas cynically hides among women and children. Even after Israel
gives fair warning to them to run before they strike.Israel
unilaterally agrees to an Egypt-brokered cease-fire, while Hamas increases the
rocket launches. Then, when Israel again targets the launchers and mortars, all
the media can do is chant that Israel has ended the cease-fire.It's a good thing Israel's military knows how to play an incredibly
callow, biased, Palestinian-ruled media. They know when to strike and when to
display Hamas at its worst.But, it's sad that they have to.
It's sad that blind, lazy, biased media organizations are so inexplicably