re: 2 bits"WOW... this topic's too far over the edge
already. Like the hamster in the ball on the commercial says... "I
don't know where to go with all this"... it's just
amazing!"The same hamster that says 'Lets go honey. Those
tacos aren't going to eat themselves.'
There was no Constitution at all in 1776. Therefore no founders. Probably want
to study history before turning on the way back machine.
J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UTThere are many who are more
concerned with being "politically correct" than they are concerned about
being "correct". When we think about our fathers, our grandfathers and
all those who sacrificed so that we could live free and be free to worship our
God as we see fit in a country that allows freedom of religion, we must
understand that they put God first, before Country. ========= I'm a Veteran J, and even though I disagree with you,
There are many who are more concerned with being "politically correct"
than they are concerned about being "correct". When we think about our
fathers, our grandfathers and all those who sacrificed so that we could live
free and be free to worship our God as we see fit in a country that allows
freedom of religion, we must understand that they put God first, before Country.
Today, too many people jump on whichever "bandwagon"
happens to be passing by. They adopt the chants of those who are on that
"bandwagon". They fail to realize that we are all sons and daughters of
our Creator first and citizens of our Country second. If we fail to
honor our Creator and respect Him, then He will deal with us as He has dealt
with many other nations. Read your history books. Read about Babylonia. Read
about ancient Greece. Read about Rome. Read about the many nations that
inhabited the Americas. They came, they prospered for a while and they rejected
our Creator. They are gone.We have a choice to make. We can join
them, or we can change. What should we do?
2 bits"From all the division, and all those who seem to love to
stir up division... I think we have hard times ahead..."The Feds
have been trying to provoke a civil war for years. They want everyone to wipe
each other out so they can implement their totalitarian society.
Liberal,You contradict the Lord when you tell us that your favorite
"sins" are really not "sins". Christ told us that He could not
look upon sin with the least degree of allowance. The Nephite
nation was destroyed because it disregarded the commandments of the Lord. Other
great nations were destroyed in the Americas because they disregarded the
commandments of the Lord. What makes you think that we are different? The Lord told us, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with
womankind: it is abomination." Isn't that clear enough? Does He need
to come down here personally and instruct us. He will, you know.We
are still sorting out the mess that slavery caused. It's been 150 years
since it was abolished, but there are still those who claim that they have been
injured because their great-great-grandparents were owned by the 1.4% who
thought that it was alright for one person to own another.How many
generations will be injured when 2.5% tell us that it is alright to disregard
the Lord and engage in same-sex sex?
@J ThompsonSPRINGVILLE, UTHow many latter-day prophets have
told us that the Book of Mormon was written for US, that the warnings in that
book were directed at US, that the consequences of disregarding those warnings
would fall upon US?====== Unlike what some posters seem
to claim, I know what the Book of Mormons says, and I believe it -- ALL of
it.The Nephites were not destroyed do to Same Sex Marriage, smoking, drinking, or gambling.They WERE how ever - destroyed for
the following reasons.Pride.Greed.Shunning the poor,
sick and the needy.Putting their faith into fine things - business [i.e.,
Gadianton Robbers]the final chapter, They began to love war
more than peace, the STARTED Wars of Aagression beyond they their own
lands, They didn't want to just win the Lamanites and protect their
homes, family and liberty, the sought to wipe out and annilated them off
the planet [genocide],
We have some winners! Re-read the posts and see how many either can't
comprehend English or deliberately choose to twist words.1.4% of
Americans OWNED slaves. No mention was made of what percentage of the people in
America WERE slaves. 1.4% of the people told us that they had the RIGHT to own
another human being. 1.4% of the people in America disregarded everything that
is decent and stole the lives of others. Today 2.5% of Americans
practice same-sex sex. 2.5% of Americans demand the right to redefine marriage.
Unlike what some posters seem to claim, I don't recall reading
commandments from Christ that had one set of rules for the people and another
set of rules for governments. How many latter-day prophets have told us that
the Book of Mormon was written for US, that the warnings in that book were
directed at US, that the consequences of disregarding those warnings would fall
upon US?Turning from a head-long rush to destruction had better
happen now. Tomorrow is too late.
I like your point LDS liberal. You can't say that a nation must worship
Jesus Christ and turn around and cry for "freedom of religion" which
implies any religion. Unless you're so arrogant to think that hey
we'll tolerate the rest of you as long as you don't try and influence
our policeis (Sharia law). The right is always making the claim that
people hate us because of our way of life. Let propose that when we strut
around the world and make the claim that God chose us, it's more reasonable
to belive that we are hated for our attitude not our lives.
I always like the words by our founding fathers that said to the effect that all
men were created equal, and that they were endowed with the inalienable rights
of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.Yet, so many
don't really believe that for all Americans or those who live here. It
would appear that some people are more equal than others. That some are allowed
a pursuit of happiness. And that only a few have real liberty.As a
general rule, only those who happen to be white male heterosexual protestants
possess the full promise spoken by the founders. Until we are all free, none of
us really are.
@Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahEther told us that any nation
in America would either worship Jesus Christ and prosper or worship other gods
and perish. How many nations in America must perish before people learn that
Ether was telling the truth?9:43 a.m. July 11, 2014========= So – you are at odds with yourself here.Do we believe you and this post, or the Constitution of the United
States of America?Because this in clear conflict and violation of Freedom
of Religion.I will worship Jesus Christ, but I will support
and Defend the right of everyone else to "worship" who, where or what
Any organism that refuses to evolve to its changing environment becomes extinct.
And regression to a primitive form is not a natural phenomena.To
wax lyrical about the good old days might make a person feel good. However, it
generally only makes one feel good when that same person had privileges others
lack. In other words, if your white, male, protestant, heterosexual privilege
feels threatened, you probably wish for the days of 1700.Well, the
world has changed. New religions sprang up. Information is no longer hoarded
by clerics. Time to grow up.
Wow, I agree with many of these comments and think that the contributor of the
article needs to revaluate his views. Of course, we've diverted from the
ways of 1776, but we always try and keep "life, liberty and the pursuit of
happiness". I like our most of our new ways of life including having health
insurance (when none was available to me for seven years before) The view that
this is bad has hit some states like Utah with no merit! And I too love
the Billy Joel Song. "Yesterday wasn't always good, and tomorrow
ain't as bad as it seems." God Bless America!
WOW... this topic's too far over the edge already. Like the hamster in
the ball on the commercial says... "I don't know where to go with all
this"... it's just amazing!People are SO steeped in their
coolaid and their political rhetoric now... that it's literally useless to
even comment.From all the division, and all those who seem to love
to stir up division... I think we have hard times ahead...
@airnaut 11:01 a.m. July 11, 2014I agree with your comments, with
one addition. Slaves comprised a lot more than 1.4% of the population, if you
take into consideration the fact that the women of the day had basically no
rights at all at law and were, therefore, de facto slaves. They were treated
for the most part as their fathers' and husbands' property. They
could not vote. They could not generally own property. They had to
"perform" whenever their husbands wanted gratification. They had to
breed whenever their husband wanted another child and over-breeding (7 or 8 or 9
or more pregnancies) was the rule of the day. Thankfully the local midwives,
without the men's knowledge, knew how to limit or terminate pregnancies, or
a lot more of the women of the day would have died or been maimed in the most
perilous activity a woman could then (and can now) undertake -- pregnancy and
childbirth.Things are better now -- thankfully. There is no way in
the world I would ever want to go back to the way things were in the 1700s and
"Only 1.4% of Americans owned slaves . . . 98.6% of Americans did not
participate in slavery."According to the census of 1790, there were
697,897 slaves in the United States out of a total population of 3,929,214.
That's approximately 17% of the population.Are you saying that
they did not "participate in slavery" or that they weren't
Lots wife thought the same thing.I say we keep moving forward.
People who fondly remember the past have selective memory.
"the good old days weren't always good, tomorrow ain't as bad as
it seems"..Billy Joel
"Only 1.4% of Americans owned slaves…"But nearly 50%
of the signers owned slaves,including 4 out of the first 5 presidents.and 4 of the next 5 presidents.
"Only 1.4% of Americans owned slaves…" is not the point. It was
legal to own slaves in a country that was supposedly founded on the principle of
freedom. It is taken us two centuries to get that straightened out. Things are
better now than they were then. That's the point.
@Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahOnly 1.4% of Americans owned slaves,
yet almost every comment in this thread cites slavery. 98.6% of Americans did
not participate in slavery. A civil war was fought before slavery ended.========= Imagine that Mike -- A super minority
of only about 1% of the Rich and Wealthy were able to write Slavery INTO the
Constitution.Do you think it that utterly far fetched that they
can't do it again?and YES -- it took a Civil War and a
Constitutional Amendment by a very Liberal President to finally seize the Rich
man's "property" and free a minority of America's citizens
from their wealthy Masters.
@. Mike RichardsA small but vocal minority shut down the government
last year. They do not represent the people. This same minority prevented gun
control legislation, shot down min wage increases, and wants us back into Iraq.
Where were your comments against this minority then?
Well, which "founders" do you mean? Alexander Hamilton is called
"the father of American capitalism" for good reason. We have become the
nation he wanted, for both good and ill. The political right wing rarely talks
@Mike Richards"Things haven't changed much. 2.5% of Americans are
using many of the pro-slavery arguments to justify their demand that the
definition of marriage be changed. "That doesn't make any
sense at all unlike the separate-but-equal attitude pushed against gay people
that they should somehow be satisfied with just civil unions (granted some on
your side don't even support that).
Wow - It's like reading the underlying goal of the Nazis -- Going back to the "Golden Age", Making things the way they
"used" to be, Restoring Germany to it's "Glory
Days"."Going back" to a better time, in the past...Scarey.Look -- I'm Progressive because I'm
LDS.I believe in Eternal Progression.PRO-gress [forward] -- the
polar opposite of RE-gress [going back]If I may add --- Adam and Ever were told never to "go back"Noah was told not to
"go back"Lot and his Family were told not to "go back"Moses and the Children of Israel were told not to "go back"Lehi
and his family was told not to "go back"Brigham Young and the
Saints were told not to "go back"As i said -- I am
Progressive BECAUSE I'm LDS.and I am against anything Regressive.Especially going back to anything like 1938 Germany....
Only 1.4% of Americans owned slaves, yet almost every comment in this thread
cites slavery. 98.6% of Americans did not participate in slavery. A civil war
was fought before slavery ended. 98.6% of the people either didn't care to
own a slave or had deep moral convictions against slavery. None of their
rhetoric mattered to the slave "owners". Pro slavery people used every
ungodly argument to justify their right to own another human being. Things haven't changed much. 2.5% of Americans are using many of the
pro-slavery arguments to justify their demand that the definition of marriage be
changed. Ether told us that any nation in America would either
worship Jesus Christ and prosper or worship other gods and perish. How many
nations in America must perish before people learn that Ether was telling the
This letter has no point, no direction. What, exactly, does it even mean?Why was it published?
Did you know that only 35 to 45 percent of the colonists supported the war for
independence? The "founders" were primarily privileged,
European-educated aristocrats forcing their radical opinion on the majority.
Back when this country was founded, corporations weren't people and oil
companies didn't receive subsidies. In other words, republicans
would have hated it.
I think that you make a mistake in that the Declaration if Independence in 1776
created a country without a government. The United States of America actually
came in to being on Sept 17, 2787 when the Constitution of the United States was
voted on and passed by the delegates of the Constitutional Convention and later
ratified by the states.
If the clothing worn by screaming tea party people on tv is any indication,
'going back' isn't necessarily a good thing.
Go back to what, exactly? To a time when the concept of the right to bear arms
wasn't warped as it is now and when it wasn't OK to bully others with
guns? To a time when corporations didn't have more rights than individuals
like they now do? Back to a time when it was perfectly OK to discriminate and
oppress other human beings? I would like to know.
I just love the hate America first crowd. Our country started out at a time
when slavery was the norm and women had virtually no rights around the world.
From the beginning there were people in the U.S> opposed to slavery. While
those on the left constantly point to the 3/5th compromise, most do not seem to
understand that it was proposed by those who oppose slavery to limit the power
of the slave states. America has continually progressed in meeting our ideal of
all people being equal under the law.Unfortunately, the leftist
agenda has also progressed in convincing people that they need to rely on the
government to take care of them. We need the government to tell us what to
eat, how long we can work and to take money from one person and give it to
another person.I think the Founding Fathers would be proud of the
progress we have made in giving people equal rights. I also think they would be
shocked by how much liberty we have surrendered to have the government run our
The obvious aside, you talk about what the founders envisioned. Do you think
they envisioned a country of 400 million people who talk with one another
instantly as they drive their car from state to state. Did they envision
travelling from America to Europe in less than a day? Did they envision a doctor
being able to take a persons heart out of their body then put it back in and all
is well.All of this drasticly effects our world and the way it
functions along with what serves freedom and what doesn't. This whole if just we could get back to the founders is about as unproductive
a way to think as is possible.
I believe the dream of the Founders is only now coming to fruition. In 1776 a sizable portion of our population was held in slavery and forced to
do work against their will and were subject to other despicable acts against
them. After a long struggle, a civil war and necessary legislation, those
individuals have the same rights as everyone else. In 1776 women
could not vote in this country and had no say in the workings of our nation,
despite their contribution throughout our culture. Today women can vote and
make up a sizable portion (about 20%) of our Congressional representatives.
Women are found in every aspect of business, government, space exploration and
culture and most would agree they have made a positive contribution to the
quality of our lives. Yes, with those freedoms come those who would
abuse them or use them for sinister purposes. And all we can do is continue to
promote the positive in life and hope others join the bandwagon. Let's at
least try to do that rather surmising that times were better then, when they
Sure, Mr. Newman,I miss the good old days of slavery, women not
being able to vote, and a horse-drawn economy, too.
You're right!The sooner we re-introduce Slavery, Take-away Women's and Young People's Right to Vote, Let
Presidents rule until they die, Ban Alcohol and empower Gangsters, and Let Governors sign Extermination Orders against minorities... The Better! [need I even say - sarcasm off?]
Too bad there wasn't more outrage when Bush and Cheney willfully deceived
and lied their way into Iraq.Oh, I forgot, Bush and Cheney are still
wildly popular in Utah.I personally feel a lot of gratitude for our
current President and the amazing job he's done with the catastrophe he was
handed.... Gratitude for our state's "leadership"???? not so
much....In my opinion, they are largely a bunch of do-nothing, intransigent
obstructionists. There is a lot to be proud of in Utah, our elected officials
are not in the mix. It is truly embarrassing.
How far we've departed from the founders' vision of America!We've decided that people can't own slaves, that black people
don't count as 3/5 of whites, and that they are allowed to vote.We've allowed American Indians, Chinese, and Japanese to become
citizens.We've allowed women to vote....and even to own
property.We've allowed people to vote, even if they don't
own any property.We've tried--and failed--to forbid people from
buying, selling, and possessing alcohol.We're still trying to
keep people from growing hemp (a crop grown by George Washington's
slaves).We've spent tax dollars on the construction of canals,
railroads, and interstate highways.We've passed laws allowing
the federal government to regulate airplanes, radio, telephones, and the
Internet.We've founded public schools and universities, making
basic literacy and higher education available to more than a handful of elites
and clergy.We've developed muskets into assault rifles, machine
guns, and nuclear bombs.We've installed indoor toilets in our
homes, and let government build sewers to connect them to.But
subsidized health insurance? The founders are surely spinning in their graves!