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Letter: Going back

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  • Mister J Salt Lake City, UT
    July 14, 2014 4:21 p.m.

    re: 2 bits

    "WOW... this topic's too far over the edge already. Like the hamster in the ball on the commercial says... "I don't know where to go with all this"... it's just amazing!"

    The same hamster that says 'Lets go honey. Those tacos aren't going to eat themselves.'

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    July 12, 2014 10:40 p.m.

    There was no Constitution at all in 1776. Therefore no founders. Probably want to study history before turning on the way back machine.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    July 12, 2014 7:10 p.m.

    J Thompson

    SPRINGVILLE, UT

    There are many who are more concerned with being "politically correct" than they are concerned about being "correct". When we think about our fathers, our grandfathers and all those who sacrificed so that we could live free and be free to worship our God as we see fit in a country that allows freedom of religion, we must understand that they put God first, before Country.

    =========

    I'm a Veteran J,
    and even though I disagree with you, you're welcome.

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    July 12, 2014 3:42 p.m.

    There are many who are more concerned with being "politically correct" than they are concerned about being "correct". When we think about our fathers, our grandfathers and all those who sacrificed so that we could live free and be free to worship our God as we see fit in a country that allows freedom of religion, we must understand that they put God first, before Country.

    Today, too many people jump on whichever "bandwagon" happens to be passing by. They adopt the chants of those who are on that "bandwagon". They fail to realize that we are all sons and daughters of our Creator first and citizens of our Country second.

    If we fail to honor our Creator and respect Him, then He will deal with us as He has dealt with many other nations. Read your history books. Read about Babylonia. Read about ancient Greece. Read about Rome. Read about the many nations that inhabited the Americas. They came, they prospered for a while and they rejected our Creator. They are gone.

    We have a choice to make. We can join them, or we can change.

    What should we do?

  • Anti Bush-Obama Chihuahua, 00
    July 12, 2014 10:54 a.m.

    2 bits

    "From all the division, and all those who seem to love to stir up division... I think we have hard times ahead..."

    The Feds have been trying to provoke a civil war for years. They want everyone to wipe each other out so they can implement their totalitarian society.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    July 12, 2014 10:05 a.m.

    Liberal,

    You contradict the Lord when you tell us that your favorite "sins" are really not "sins". Christ told us that He could not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.

    The Nephite nation was destroyed because it disregarded the commandments of the Lord. Other great nations were destroyed in the Americas because they disregarded the commandments of the Lord. What makes you think that we are different?

    The Lord told us, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." Isn't that clear enough? Does He need to come down here personally and instruct us. He will, you know.

    We are still sorting out the mess that slavery caused. It's been 150 years since it was abolished, but there are still those who claim that they have been injured because their great-great-grandparents were owned by the 1.4% who thought that it was alright for one person to own another.

    How many generations will be injured when 2.5% tell us that it is alright to disregard the Lord and engage in same-sex sex?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    July 11, 2014 6:52 p.m.

    @J Thompson
    SPRINGVILLE, UT

    How many latter-day prophets have told us that the Book of Mormon was written for US, that the warnings in that book were directed at US, that the consequences of disregarding those warnings would fall upon US?

    ======

    Unlike what some posters seem to claim,
    I know what the Book of Mormons says, and I believe it -- ALL of it.

    The Nephites were not destroyed do to Same Sex Marriage,
    smoking, drinking, or gambling.

    They WERE how ever - destroyed for the following reasons.

    Pride.
    Greed.
    Shunning the poor, sick and the needy.
    Putting their faith into fine things - business [i.e., Gadianton Robbers]

    the final chapter,
    They began to love war more than peace,
    the STARTED Wars of Aagression beyond they their own lands,
    They didn't want to just win the Lamanites and protect their homes, family and liberty,
    the sought to wipe out and annilated them off the planet [genocide],

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    July 11, 2014 5:55 p.m.

    We have some winners! Re-read the posts and see how many either can't comprehend English or deliberately choose to twist words.

    1.4% of Americans OWNED slaves. No mention was made of what percentage of the people in America WERE slaves. 1.4% of the people told us that they had the RIGHT to own another human being. 1.4% of the people in America disregarded everything that is decent and stole the lives of others.

    Today 2.5% of Americans practice same-sex sex. 2.5% of Americans demand the right to redefine marriage.

    Unlike what some posters seem to claim, I don't recall reading commandments from Christ that had one set of rules for the people and another set of rules for governments. How many latter-day prophets have told us that the Book of Mormon was written for US, that the warnings in that book were directed at US, that the consequences of disregarding those warnings would fall upon US?

    Turning from a head-long rush to destruction had better happen now. Tomorrow is too late.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    July 11, 2014 4:12 p.m.

    I like your point LDS liberal. You can't say that a nation must worship Jesus Christ and turn around and cry for "freedom of religion" which implies any religion. Unless you're so arrogant to think that hey we'll tolerate the rest of you as long as you don't try and influence our policeis (Sharia law).

    The right is always making the claim that people hate us because of our way of life. Let propose that when we strut around the world and make the claim that God chose us, it's more reasonable to belive that we are hated for our attitude not our lives.

  • ordinaryfolks seattle, WA
    July 11, 2014 3:19 p.m.

    I always like the words by our founding fathers that said to the effect that all men were created equal, and that they were endowed with the inalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

    Yet, so many don't really believe that for all Americans or those who live here. It would appear that some people are more equal than others. That some are allowed a pursuit of happiness. And that only a few have real liberty.

    As a general rule, only those who happen to be white male heterosexual protestants possess the full promise spoken by the founders. Until we are all free, none of us really are.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    July 11, 2014 3:11 p.m.

    @Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah

    Ether told us that any nation in America would either worship Jesus Christ and prosper or worship other gods and perish. How many nations in America must perish before people learn that Ether was telling the truth?

    9:43 a.m. July 11, 2014

    =========

    So – you are at odds with yourself here.

    Do we believe you and this post,
    or
    the Constitution of the United States of America?
    Because this in clear conflict and violation of Freedom of Religion.

    I will worship Jesus Christ,
    but I will support and Defend the right of everyone else to "worship" who, where or what they may.

  • ordinaryfolks seattle, WA
    July 11, 2014 3:06 p.m.

    Any organism that refuses to evolve to its changing environment becomes extinct. And regression to a primitive form is not a natural phenomena.

    To wax lyrical about the good old days might make a person feel good. However, it generally only makes one feel good when that same person had privileges others lack. In other words, if your white, male, protestant, heterosexual privilege feels threatened, you probably wish for the days of 1700.

    Well, the world has changed. New religions sprang up. Information is no longer hoarded by clerics. Time to grow up.

  • Kimber Salt Lake City, UT
    July 11, 2014 3:01 p.m.

    Wow, I agree with many of these comments and think that the contributor of the article needs to revaluate his views. Of course, we've diverted from the ways of 1776, but we always try and keep "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness". I like our most of our new ways of life including having health insurance (when none was available to me for seven years before) The view that this is bad has hit some states like Utah with no merit!
    And I too love the Billy Joel Song. "Yesterday wasn't always good, and tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems."
    God Bless America!

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 11, 2014 2:01 p.m.

    WOW... this topic's too far over the edge already. Like the hamster in the ball on the commercial says... "I don't know where to go with all this"... it's just amazing!

    People are SO steeped in their coolaid and their political rhetoric now... that it's literally useless to even comment.

    From all the division, and all those who seem to love to stir up division... I think we have hard times ahead...

  • Furry1993 Ogden, UT
    July 11, 2014 1:32 p.m.

    @airnaut 11:01 a.m. July 11, 2014

    I agree with your comments, with one addition. Slaves comprised a lot more than 1.4% of the population, if you take into consideration the fact that the women of the day had basically no rights at all at law and were, therefore, de facto slaves. They were treated for the most part as their fathers' and husbands' property. They could not vote. They could not generally own property. They had to "perform" whenever their husbands wanted gratification. They had to breed whenever their husband wanted another child and over-breeding (7 or 8 or 9 or more pregnancies) was the rule of the day. Thankfully the local midwives, without the men's knowledge, knew how to limit or terminate pregnancies, or a lot more of the women of the day would have died or been maimed in the most perilous activity a woman could then (and can now) undertake -- pregnancy and childbirth.

    Things are better now -- thankfully. There is no way in the world I would ever want to go back to the way things were in the 1700s and 1800s.

  • micawber Centerville, UT
    July 11, 2014 1:29 p.m.

    "Only 1.4% of Americans owned slaves . . . 98.6% of Americans did not participate in slavery."
    According to the census of 1790, there were 697,897 slaves in the United States out of a total population of 3,929,214. That's approximately 17% of the population.

    Are you saying that they did not "participate in slavery" or that they weren't Americans?

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    July 11, 2014 12:27 p.m.

    Lots wife thought the same thing.

    I say we keep moving forward. People who fondly remember the past have selective memory.

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    July 11, 2014 12:17 p.m.

    "the good old days weren't always good, tomorrow ain't as bad as it seems"..Billy Joel

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    July 11, 2014 12:17 p.m.

    "Only 1.4% of Americans owned slaves…"

    But nearly 50% of the signers owned slaves,
    including 4 out of the first 5 presidents.
    and 4 of the next 5 presidents.

  • ECR Burke, VA
    July 11, 2014 11:20 a.m.

    "Only 1.4% of Americans owned slaves…" is not the point. It was legal to own slaves in a country that was supposedly founded on the principle of freedom. It is taken us two centuries to get that straightened out. Things are better now than they were then. That's the point.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    July 11, 2014 11:01 a.m.

    @Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah
    Only 1.4% of Americans owned slaves, yet almost every comment in this thread cites slavery. 98.6% of Americans did not participate in slavery. A civil war was fought before slavery ended.

    =========

    Imagine that Mike --

    A super minority of only about 1% of the Rich and Wealthy were able to write Slavery INTO the Constitution.

    Do you think it that utterly far fetched that they can't do it again?

    and YES -- it took a Civil War and a Constitutional Amendment by a very Liberal President to finally seize the Rich man's "property" and free a minority of America's citizens from their wealthy Masters.

  • FreedomFighter41 Provo, UT
    July 11, 2014 10:31 a.m.

    @. Mike Richards

    A small but vocal minority shut down the government last year. They do not represent the people. This same minority prevented gun control legislation, shot down min wage increases, and wants us back into Iraq. Where were your comments against this minority then?

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    July 11, 2014 10:28 a.m.

    Well, which "founders" do you mean? Alexander Hamilton is called "the father of American capitalism" for good reason. We have become the nation he wanted, for both good and ill. The political right wing rarely talks about Hamilton.

  • Schnee Salt Lake City, UT
    July 11, 2014 10:16 a.m.

    @Mike Richards
    "Things haven't changed much. 2.5% of Americans are using many of the pro-slavery arguments to justify their demand that the definition of marriage be changed. "

    That doesn't make any sense at all unlike the separate-but-equal attitude pushed against gay people that they should somehow be satisfied with just civil unions (granted some on your side don't even support that).

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    July 11, 2014 9:49 a.m.

    Wow - It's like reading the underlying goal of the Nazis --

    Going back to the "Golden Age",
    Making things the way they "used" to be,
    Restoring Germany to it's "Glory Days".

    "Going back" to a better time, in the past...

    Scarey.

    Look --
    I'm Progressive because I'm LDS.
    I believe in Eternal Progression.
    PRO-gress [forward] -- the polar opposite of RE-gress [going back]

    If I may add ---

    Adam and Ever were told never to "go back"
    Noah was told not to "go back"
    Lot and his Family were told not to "go back"
    Moses and the Children of Israel were told not to "go back"
    Lehi and his family was told not to "go back"
    Brigham Young and the Saints were told not to "go back"

    As i said --
    I am Progressive BECAUSE I'm LDS.
    and I am against anything Regressive.

    Especially going back to anything like 1938 Germany....

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    July 11, 2014 9:43 a.m.

    Only 1.4% of Americans owned slaves, yet almost every comment in this thread cites slavery. 98.6% of Americans did not participate in slavery. A civil war was fought before slavery ended. 98.6% of the people either didn't care to own a slave or had deep moral convictions against slavery. None of their rhetoric mattered to the slave "owners". Pro slavery people used every ungodly argument to justify their right to own another human being.

    Things haven't changed much. 2.5% of Americans are using many of the pro-slavery arguments to justify their demand that the definition of marriage be changed.

    Ether told us that any nation in America would either worship Jesus Christ and prosper or worship other gods and perish. How many nations in America must perish before people learn that Ether was telling the truth?

  • SharpHooks Sandy, UT
    July 11, 2014 9:33 a.m.

    This letter has no point, no direction. What, exactly, does it even mean?
    Why was it published?

  • GZE SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    July 11, 2014 9:31 a.m.

    Did you know that only 35 to 45 percent of the colonists supported the war for independence? The "founders" were primarily privileged, European-educated aristocrats forcing their radical opinion on the majority.

  • FreedomFighter41 Provo, UT
    July 11, 2014 8:46 a.m.

    Back when this country was founded, corporations weren't people and oil companies didn't receive subsidies.

    In other words, republicans would have hated it.

  • Flashback Kearns, UT
    July 11, 2014 8:36 a.m.

    I think that you make a mistake in that the Declaration if Independence in 1776 created a country without a government. The United States of America actually came in to being on Sept 17, 2787 when the Constitution of the United States was voted on and passed by the delegates of the Constitutional Convention and later ratified by the states.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    July 11, 2014 8:24 a.m.

    If the clothing worn by screaming tea party people on tv is any indication, 'going back' isn't necessarily a good thing.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    July 11, 2014 8:10 a.m.

    Go back to what, exactly? To a time when the concept of the right to bear arms wasn't warped as it is now and when it wasn't OK to bully others with guns? To a time when corporations didn't have more rights than individuals like they now do? Back to a time when it was perfectly OK to discriminate and oppress other human beings? I would like to know.

  • RBB Sandy, UT
    July 11, 2014 8:01 a.m.

    I just love the hate America first crowd. Our country started out at a time when slavery was the norm and women had virtually no rights around the world. From the beginning there were people in the U.S> opposed to slavery. While those on the left constantly point to the 3/5th compromise, most do not seem to understand that it was proposed by those who oppose slavery to limit the power of the slave states. America has continually progressed in meeting our ideal of all people being equal under the law.

    Unfortunately, the leftist agenda has also progressed in convincing people that they need to rely on the government to take care of them. We need the government to tell us what to eat, how long we can work and to take money from one person and give it to another person.

    I think the Founding Fathers would be proud of the progress we have made in giving people equal rights. I also think they would be shocked by how much liberty we have surrendered to have the government run our lives.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    July 11, 2014 7:47 a.m.

    The obvious aside, you talk about what the founders envisioned. Do you think they envisioned a country of 400 million people who talk with one another instantly as they drive their car from state to state. Did they envision travelling from America to Europe in less than a day? Did they envision a doctor being able to take a persons heart out of their body then put it back in and all is well.

    All of this drasticly effects our world and the way it functions along with what serves freedom and what doesn't.

    This whole if just we could get back to the founders is about as unproductive a way to think as is possible.

  • ECR Burke, VA
    July 11, 2014 6:31 a.m.

    I believe the dream of the Founders is only now coming to fruition.

    In 1776 a sizable portion of our population was held in slavery and forced to do work against their will and were subject to other despicable acts against them. After a long struggle, a civil war and necessary legislation, those individuals have the same rights as everyone else.

    In 1776 women could not vote in this country and had no say in the workings of our nation, despite their contribution throughout our culture. Today women can vote and make up a sizable portion (about 20%) of our Congressional representatives. Women are found in every aspect of business, government, space exploration and culture and most would agree they have made a positive contribution to the quality of our lives.

    Yes, with those freedoms come those who would abuse them or use them for sinister purposes. And all we can do is continue to promote the positive in life and hope others join the bandwagon. Let's at least try to do that rather surmising that times were better then, when they weren't.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    July 11, 2014 6:06 a.m.

    Sure, Mr. Newman,

    I miss the good old days of slavery, women not being able to vote, and a horse-drawn economy, too.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    July 11, 2014 6:00 a.m.

    You're right!

    The sooner we re-introduce Slavery,
    Take-away Women's and Young People's Right to Vote,
    Let Presidents rule until they die,
    Ban Alcohol and empower Gangsters,
    and
    Let Governors sign Extermination Orders against minorities...

    The Better!

    [need I even say - sarcasm off?]

  • embarrassed Utahn! Salt Lake City, UT
    July 11, 2014 5:23 a.m.

    Too bad there wasn't more outrage when Bush and Cheney willfully deceived and lied their way into Iraq.

    Oh, I forgot, Bush and Cheney are still wildly popular in Utah.

    I personally feel a lot of gratitude for our current President and the amazing job he's done with the catastrophe he was handed.... Gratitude for our state's "leadership"???? not so much....In my opinion, they are largely a bunch of do-nothing, intransigent obstructionists. There is a lot to be proud of in Utah, our elected officials are not in the mix. It is truly embarrassing.

  • SAS Sandy, UT
    July 11, 2014 12:44 a.m.

    How far we've departed from the founders' vision of America!

    We've decided that people can't own slaves, that black people don't count as 3/5 of whites, and that they are allowed to vote.

    We've allowed American Indians, Chinese, and Japanese to become citizens.

    We've allowed women to vote....and even to own property.

    We've allowed people to vote, even if they don't own any property.

    We've tried--and failed--to forbid people from buying, selling, and possessing alcohol.

    We're still trying to keep people from growing hemp (a crop grown by George Washington's slaves).

    We've spent tax dollars on the construction of canals, railroads, and interstate highways.

    We've passed laws allowing the federal government to regulate airplanes, radio, telephones, and the Internet.

    We've founded public schools and universities, making basic literacy and higher education available to more than a handful of elites and clergy.

    We've developed muskets into assault rifles, machine guns, and nuclear bombs.

    We've installed indoor toilets in our homes, and let government build sewers to connect them to.

    But subsidized health insurance? The founders are surely spinning in their graves!