@mormon uteWhat you "see" from your standpoint really
doesn't matter, it is what recruits see. No utah does not have a legacy,
those ar ebuilt over decades not over a couple of good years during one decade.
It simply is not the same and it is your crimson goggles that keep you from
realizing it.That said utah will never match BYU in the things that
make a legacy, i.e. national fanbase, heisman, doak walker, davy o'brien, a
NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, hall of famers, All Americans, national rankings, etc.The fact is those are the things that make a legacy and while I am not
claiming BYU's legacy is the equivalent of USC's or Aabama's it
certainly matches up well with all but the very few elite schools in the country
and no utah will never match it, if you think they will get all of those
accolades then I think maybe you need to take those goggles off.Where a program is on any one year, or even over a 4 year span, does not
equate to what has been established over several decades. It just doesn't.
Duckhunter,I'll give you the bigger national audience and
church affiliation advantages, but as far as legacy the U has closed the gap
considerably having been the first BCS busting team and the first to do it
twice. That had a lot to do with the Pac 12 invite. Utah has also been very
competitive with BYU, since Ron McBride was the coach. That's been over 20
years now and has included a lot of bowl games, conference titles and wins over
BYU. The U doesn't have to concede much of anything to BYU anymore. Most
of BYU's wins today come against the same kind of teams the U was beating
before joining the Pac 12. I know your blue goggles don't let you see the
good things going on at the U, but from my standpoint the only thing BYU has
over the U is the Honor Code. If a kid wants that, he's going to have to
go to BYU. Harvey Langi is proof of that. The Honor Code is the only reason he
gave in his own statement to Vai for wanting to transfer.
@Mormon UteMaybe, maybe not as far as BYU having more success than
those two but BYU has some advantages neither of them have. Like it or not BYU
is a bigger name than either and has had far more success over a much longer
period of time. Both utah and tcu are fairly new at even being decent teams and
have no real legacies like BYU has. Nor does either have the built in advantage
of having the church affiliation BYU has which automatically gives it a fair
number of good recruits. I know those facts infuriate utah fans but they are
facts. No BYU is not notre dame but they are much more accomplished than those
two.If BYU were to ever join one of those conferences it would
certainly offset the one major reason LDS recruits, and a lot of instate kids,
have for wanting to go to utah. I've stated before that affiliation is the
ONLY advantage utah has over BYU unless the recruit is not a kid that wants to
live BYU standards. Maybe short term BYU would be no better but long term they
almost certainly would, to many advantages over those two.
Duckhunter,I think BYU would have the same experience Utah and TCU
have had. You refer to it as a 'honeymoon'. They would initially
benefit in recruiting just from the membership in the conference, but after
struggling for a few seasons would then see a drop off. There is no way BYU
would have any better success in it's first few years than the other two
top MWC teams have had in making the transition.
@Mormon UteBoth would benefit from better recruiting but what I take
from this is that joining a so called "power 5" conference doesnt give a
lasting recruiting upsurge, it has to be combined with actually performing in
that conference which utah hasnt done, and the recruiting has steadily dropped
with the drop in wins.I have made the point many times that utah was
getting a "honeymoon" period from their fans and recruits but that it
would not sustain itself unless utah could be at the top of the pac12 rather
than the bottom. Well they have sunk closer to the bottom each season and the
recruiting ranking has dropped each season and there is unrest in the fanbase.
whittingham was once a saint to utah "fans", he is now being vilified by
many of them, second guessed, and flat out having his job called for. Deservedly
so IMO. Instate and LDS recruits were initially enamored with the
pac12 affiliation but that has more than worn off for many of them. Non
"power" BYU still gets most of the top LDS and enough of the top
instate. With a power 5 membership BYU might get ALL of them.
Duckhunter,Given the fact that at least one ranking service has Utah
still ahead and the rankings are all within a few places of each other, I'd
say BYU caught up, but really didn't surpass the U. Now it will be
interesting to see what impact this has. I attribute the change mostly to the
U's struggles in the Pac 12 and I think with the new coaching staff and
hopefully more stability at key positions that will change over the next several
seasons. As I have always said, I look forward to the rivalry resuming in 2016.
It will be fun to see if the two teams are further apart or about the same and
which direction each has gone by then. Going back to the topic of this article,
I would say recruiting is one thing BYU would definitely benefit from in getting
into a P5 conference. The Ute's definitely saw an uptick that started with
the Fiesta Bowl win and continued through the Sugar Bowl win and Pac 12
@Mormon UteI'll take your word for it but it still confirms
what I said to you that this last year BYU not only caught but surpassed utah in
the recruit rankings.
Ya gotta love technology, Duckhunter. So I followed your instructions and got
exactly the results you said. Then I tried it again searching the way I have
been searching. I Googled 2014 College Football Recruiting Class Rankings, then
scrolled down to 247 Sports and clicked on it. That took me to a page that
looks identical to the one you directed me too, except for the teams were in
different order. I checked everything on the page including the date it was
last updated and it looked like the most recent version. The problem is the
page you directed me too also had today's date on it. So I don't know
which they consider to be their most recent one and I don't know which to
rely on. Somebody with more internet and computer knowledge than me will have
to explain how this happens, but this just illustrates what I always tell my
kids about not believing everything you see on the internet.
@mormon uteAnyone can go and look and anyone can go and see it. Of
course I won't admit I "am wrong" when I am not and anyone at all
can go and see that I am not. Just to humor you I went again to all of the sites
and looked under the team rankings for 2014 and once again every single one of
them, including 247, has it ranked exactly the way I posted here. That was in
the last few minutes that I checked them. Let me help you. Google
247sports and then click on "Team Rankings" It will bring up 2015
because that is current in the upper left corner. If you click on 2015 it will
drop down a list of other years. click on 2014. The list will appear and all you
have to do is scroll down thorugh it and there it is plain as day. BYU ranked
64th and utah below them ranked 66th.It is plain to see, black and
white, clear as day.
@sports authority....."The BYU jealousy that you mock is nothing compared to
the jealousy of the kids on the hill to BYU's Crystal Football National
Championship trophy."Let's see would I rather have my team
have an undefeated season against 0 ranked teams barley beat a 6-6 Michigan team
in holiday bowl and be the sole reason the BCS was formed or have undefeated
season against several ranked teams and a dominating sugar bowl victory over bar
none the best college football program the last 10 years Alabama.Yes
pretty easy decsion there so again the cougie "fans" jealousy of that is
classic, love it!! LOL!
@Ducky...."Those are completely different subjects, and not what you falsely
tried to call me out for. Also the fact BYU gets more highly rated recruits is
not a "recent issue due to the Ute's struggles in the Pac 12" it is
an 'it's ALWAYS been that way issue' based on BYU having been the
superior program for such a long time and BYU's advantage with LDS kids
that are highly ranked recruits."Ducky who cares either way your
mighty cougies can't beat Utah on the field where it matters....LOL! I love
how jealous you are of the utes and how much it eats at you the cougies
can't beat utah....LOL!
Duckhunter,Don't be patronizing. It only serves to further the
bad image many in the media say is keeping BYU out of a major conference.I any case, no matter what you post here I already told you what I saw
and what you are posting from 247 isn't what I see when I go to their site.
As I said, the date on the sight I was looking at was 7/13/2014 so I can only
conclude you are looking at old data before the recruiting period had ended. Of
course I know you're never going to admit you've been wrong, even if
you actually see it in front of your face.
I've been gone for a bit...just caught up. MyPersective and
others...it seems you misunderstood what I was saying about BYU bringing more
value than a possible partner. I wasn't trying to say that's the only
reason they aren't in, just one of a few. You accused me of arrogance &
hubris to say such a thing, and yet that is one of the reasons given by other
pundits, including Frank the Tank who has often been referred to in expansion
predictions, and has often been right. BYU does bring a lot of value...there
isn't another candidate available (unless P5 schools decide to forget about
the GOR agreements() that brings the same value. That's a fact...name one
that does. Other reasons I gave were geography, a reputation for being
difficult, Sunday play. Or did you choose to ignore those? Honestly MP,
sometimes I think you get an idea in your head of what BYU fans think and then
follow that stereotype to evaluate what one (myself in this case) is trying to
express. Bring on August please...
It's pretty simply Mormon Ute, all you do is go to the recruiting sites
then go to Team Rankings, once you pull those up you put it on the year you want
to see, in our case here that is 2014 because the last years class all signed in
February 2014. Then you simply look at the list of rankings. I'll save you
the trouble because it appears you are struggling with it.ScoutBYU #62utah #69ESPNBYU #62utah
#64247 SportsBYU #64utah #66Rivals utah #67BYU #71So two of the sites (rivals and scout)
give recruits an average star rank. Here those are for both schools recruits.Scout BYU 2.74utah 2.65RivalsBYU 2.68utah 2.63Average for bothBYU 2.71utah 2.64So for individual recruits BYU's outranked
utah's by .07Anyway you look at it I was correct. I'll
give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're confused.Now
neither of them were ranked all that high, and they were close to each other on
all 4 sites but when 3 of the 4 sites rank BYU h
Duckhunter,It's too bad the DNews won't let us post links,
because it is obvious you and I are looking at different numbers and I
can't explain it. I have checked the same sources you have cited and I am
checking for the most recent updates to their data. Still the only one that
consistently supports your claim is Scout.com. All I can say is we'll have
to leave that argument up in the air.One fact that can't be
disputed is this. The Utes have done well with the talent they have. Two
undefeated seasons ending in BCS bowl wins and top 10 rankings in the past 9
years along with 6 wins over BYU during that time is a decent run. If we
believe the recruiting numbers you claim, Utah has accomplished far more during
the past 8 years with lesser talent than BYU has.
2b"The jealousy you have of the utes litterally[sic] makes my
day...LOL"The BYU jealousy that you mock is nothing compared to
the jealousy of the kids on the hill to BYU's Crystal Football National
2bBYU and Utah compete throughout the season on a national scale.Unfortunately for U, that usually equates to BYU having a better overall
record, a higher national ranking, and more success overall than the Utes.AP Top 25Bronco 4Kyle 211+ Win SeasonsBronco 3Kyle 1Conference ChampionshipsBronco 2Kyle 1Bowl GamesBronco 9Kyle 7All
accomplishments that are indeed noticed on a national scale.Unfortunately for U, hardly anybody outside of the Wasatch Front pays much
attention to the annual results of the BYU-Utah slugfest except for watching
highlights of the Utes rushing the field three times for one victory over a
supposedly mid-major program, which sort of destroys in the national view any
myth on the hill about Utah fan indifference to the rivalry.
@Troytown...."I guarantee that NOBODY outside of Uteville would consider
Utah to even be in the same stratosphere as Alabama.Utah's win
over Alabama was the equivalent of Appalachian State's win over
Michigan.Nothing more than a fluke upset."The
jealousy you have of the utes litterally makes my day...LOL@Sky
walker....."The only reason Utah fans only want to talk about head-to-head
success is because Utah has been dominated by BYU on a national scale,
FOREVER.In fact, BYU's domination has been so complete on a
national scale that Utah fans don't even try to dispute it."Huh?? Did utah and byu play somewhere else on a national scale that we
don't know about?? Not sure how a national scale would change the fact that
Utah owns the cougies on the field where it actually matters! Not where cougies
make things up like national scale to make them feel better....LOL!
2ferIt's nice that U padded your early historical record with
wins (and losses) against teams like YMCA, Ogden High, Fort Douglas, Salt Lake
High, Hawaii Nat'l Guard, Carlisle Indian School, Colorado A.C., 12th
Infantry, 9th Cavalry, All Hallows (seriously?), Denver, Colorado Mines, Oregon
Short Line, and Utah Alumni (LOL!), but unfortunately for U, Utah never
accomplished anything on a national scale in 60+ years of beating up on teams
that were even more mediocre than U.The gravy train eventually ended
and U were forced to join a real conference in 1962.Since then,
you've been dominated by a team that has actually accomplished something on
a national scale.
Overall Record Since 1962BYU 410-214-4 (66%) > Utah 323-269-4 (55%)Overall Record Since 1972BYU 365-158-3 (70%) > Utah 274-216-3
(54%)Bronco/Kyle eraOverall RecordBronco 82-34 (71%)
> Kyle 75-39 (66%)AP Top 25 FinishesBronco 4 > Kyle
211+ Win SeasonsBronco 3 > Kyle 1Conference
ChampionshipsBronco 2 > Kyle 1Bowl GamesBronco 9
> Kyle 7Of course Utah fans will whine about SOS, but the truth
is, Bronco was outperforming Kyle in AP Top 25 finishes, 11+ win seasons, and
conference championships BEFORE BYU became Independent and Utah moved to the PAC
2ferOverall means on a national scale - something practically
non-existent on the hillNational ChampionshipsBYU 1 > Utah
0Heisman TrophiesBYU 1 > Utah 0AP Top 25
FinishesBYU 17 > Utah 5 (it took Utah 100 seasons to crack the AP poll
for the first time)National Hall of Fame PlayersBYU 6 >
Utah 0National Individual Award WinnersBYU 15 > Utah 0Conference Championships in a conference someone younger than your
great-grandfather remembersBYU 23 > Utah 6Bowl GamesBYU 32 > Utah 1711+ Win SeasonsBYU 11 > Utah 210+ Win SeasonsBYU 16 > Utah 6Head-to-head since
1962BYU 29 > Utah 23Head-to-head since 1972BYU 26
> Utah 16Typical BroadcasterESPN/BYUtv > PAC net/live
streamingMajor Independent > Bottom dwelling P5
@ Y's little brotherOverall means more than just the
1980's.Utah: 628–435–31 (.588), 13–4 (.765),
24 conf. titles. Pac-12BYU: 484–369–26 (.565),
13–18–1 (.422), 23 conf. titles. Mid-MajorAlso,
CDM1525It's already been settled; overall, BYU is better.
It would be nice if these 2 teams could play head to head and settle all of this
nonsense once and for all to find out who the better program is. Oh
wait......that's been done.
"more NFL talent equals better on field success AS A TEAM"Seriously?First of all, that completely eliminates BJ as a factor
in 2008, doesn't it, since BJ had absolutely ZERO NFL talent.Second,How do you explain BYU having more overall success than
Utah during the Bronco/Kyle era if Utah supposedly had more talent?AP Top 25 FinishesBronco 4Kyle 211+ Win SeasonsBronco 3Kyle 1MWC ChampionshipsBronco 2Kyle 1Bowl GamesBronco 9Kyle 7Since 2006, Bronco has
had more 11+ win, Top 15 seasons, than the Utes have had in their entire
history.Overall, even in the greatest period in Utah football
history, BYU has still done better overall than Utah. That's not even
debatable.Kyle has had one great, flash-in-the-pan season, and
WhatsnuSandy, UTUteology"Would you like to
explain to us the NFL rating for Utah's Sugar Bowl MVP?"Let
me make it simple for you.You completely dodged the question.Brian Johnson was a complete bust in the NFL, in fact, BJ didn't
even make an NFL roster.So please explain the correlation between
having the talent to play in the NFL and having the talent to be a very
successful player in college.----------------Why? I
never claimed such correlation existed. I even LOL at Jimmer fans that do, like
you. I think I made it clear what the correlation was, more NFL talent equals
better on field success AS A TEAM.BJ's NFL rating was slightly
below Max Hall. The difference BJ lead a much superior team to an undefeated
season, the best mid-major team under BCS rules. Max lead his team to airport
celebrations in September.
Duckhunter,I don't know what rankings you're looking at,
but I just checked both 247 and ESPN and ESPN had BYU a mere two places higher
than Utah and that is only because BYU had 4 more recruits in 2014. So Utah did
not have more recruits in 2014 as you have alleged. Also, 247 has Utah 6 places
higher than BYU. Scout appears to be the only source in line with your
allegations and they have Uath with one more recruit than BYU. I'm really
not sure what you are looking at, but it's not what is on the internet
today for the services you are claiming to quote. Maybe your data is old and
you need to update it. So it is I who is LOL. I urge you to take a look at the
current info on those web sites. The pages I'm looking at say they were
Uteology"Would you like to explain to us the NFL rating for
Utah's Sugar Bowl MVP?"Let me make it simple for you.You completely dodged the question.Brian Johnson was a
complete bust in the NFL, in fact, BJ didn't even make an NFL roster.So please explain the correlation between having the talent to play in
the NFL and having the talent to be a very successful player in college.-----------btw, the reluctance of Utah fans to discuss any
football history prior to the "bcs era", has absolutely nothing to do
with the "current era", but everything to do with that fact that Utah
has no history worth discussing prior to the "bcs era", and previously
So I also checked your assertion that utah has had better recruit rankings every
year since 2007. Once again false. Only one site "once again the utah homer
site rivals) has it ranked that way. ALL of the other sites rank BYU ahead for
all of those years other than the 3 I originally said which are 2011,2012,2013.
I understand why utah "fans" only want to refer to the one
and only site that claims utah superiority but I think an aggregate is much more
reliable and honest. In otherwords 3 sites all grade BYU better for all but
those 3 years including last year and only one site grades utah better all those
years, and as I've said even that site ranks BYU players higher last year.
Just the facts.
@Mormon UteNo I did not include 2015, if I was to do that then
rivals has them tied (although once again BYU's recruits are ranked higher
individually), scout give utah a slight lead and 247 and espn both rank BYU
higher.I am talking about last February's signing classes. As I
put in my other post ever site BYu rivals ranks BYU's higher and even
rivals ranks BYU recruits higher individually utah just had more recruits sign.
It is all there for you to see.
@mormon uteFalse.Rivals was the only site that ranked
utah higher than BYU for this last class in February and no surprise as dan
sorenson, the utezone homer does those rankings. And even that was only because
utah singed more recruits, BYU's average recruit ranked higher than
utah's even on rivals.Scout ranked BYU's class higher. 247
ranked BYU's class higher. ESPN ranked BYU's class higher. In otherwords as I said BYU passed utah this last signing class, it isn't
debatable and anyone can actually look it up on all of those sites and you once
again need to do some research before posting so "frantically and
Duckhunter,I have realized one of the reasons we differ in our
recruiting numbers. You including the 2015 class which I haven't. Of
course I made that clear in my posts. I purposely left out the 2015 class,
because as you mentioned it still isn't complete so I think it
wouldn't be fair to use it in any comparison.As far as the
future goes, I believe coaching and lack of consistent QB play have been the
major issues, since we joined the Pac 12. I believe both of those issues have
been resolved and the Utes will see a turn around starting with this season. So
when we play again in 2016 I don't foresee any problems continuing our on
the field winning ways over BYU. I also believe we will become a contender in
the Pac 12 South Division about that same year so the timing will be perfect.
Yes, you are correct, that is just speculation on my part so we will have to
scenic view:Did a byU fan really say the words "mediocre
bowl"? A "mediocre bowl" is the most that byU can EVER hope for as
an independent. For 2014, byU is already locked in to the worst bowl of D1, so
bad that the MAC gave up their spot in the bowl and that is the ONLY reason byU
has a bowl agreement.Oh, but byU gets to keep all of the proceeds
from that bowl because of it's desirous status as an independent, right?
Well good luck netting any type of gain after byU pays all related expenses in
getting the team, etc to Miami!
Actually uteology the 1984 BYU team had almost 30 players that eventually played
in the NFL. There were freshman and sophomores that were on that team that
spread out over the following 7 years because of missions and reshirts. There
were 13 sr's and jr's alone off of that team that played in the
NFL.I would like to see if you can show us a 4 year utah class,
freshman through seniors, that has had 30 of its players move on to the NFL. I
actually already know the answer to that but it will be more fun to let you
research it yourself.
@uteologyYou refer to that time frame because you think that is what
puts utah in the best light. It is obviously cherry picking, something you
always accuse BYU fans of doing when they set a date and use that for reference
because it puts BYU in the best light.Honesty is this, utah has won
more head to head recently but it has not been a domination, almost all the
games have been very close. utah has also had a couple of better seasons
recently but overall BYU has still had more good seasons and more rankings
during that time. So even in the period you chose to put utah in the best
possible light for your argument they still haven't had as many good
seasosn and rankings as BYU has.You can consider utah's last 15
years to be better if you want to and if it helps your fragile ego but it is by
no means definitive and in fact a more than credible argument can be made to the
Duckhunter,Now it is you who has a comprehension issue or you are
just trying to revise history for your own benefit. As I posted earlier Utah
had a far higher ranked recruiting class in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014. That is
each of the past four years, not 3 of the past 4. BYU did not surpass Utah in
2014, although they did narrow the gap some. Utah has consistently out
recruited BYU for a long time. Since you brought it up, I thought I'd go
back even further to see how far I have to go to find a year when BYU had a
higher ranked class. I had to go back to 2007 to find one. So that's 7
years straight starting in 2008 the Utes have had higher ranked recruiting
classes. The results of that have also been born out on the field as the Utes
have beaten BYU 6 of those 7 years. I don't know how I can make it any
more clear than that.
@spokane uteThat might be the most honest post you have ever had.
But you are a bit late on that point, I have made it several times as have
several other BYU fans. While the big12 acknowledges that BYU add's value
they do not add enough value on their own to offset what each of those 10
schools would lose by adding BYU and another school. Plus adding BYU alone only
gets them to 11 which does not allow them to add a championship game so they
still don't get that money by adding BYU. There needs to be
another school out there that paired with BYU brings in enough more to more than
offset a twelve way split instead of a 10 way split. At this point they
don't think anyone does that.Even so who knows if they will
invite BYU, there are other factors involved besides just money. Personally I
like independence but for better bowl access it is apparent BYU needs to figure
something out and if that means a conference affiliation, if an invite ever
came, then I think they'll have to do it.
Just looked, and it seems the 1984 BYU (WAC) team also had 13 players that made
NFL rosters.Again, over the last 4 years BYU has had TWO players
drafted.That should give BYU fans an idea of where BYU talent level
was, in the WAC, and where BYU talent level is today.
After googling the subject, and doing a little research. The reason the Big 12
won't invite BYU to join is because they are in the middle of a TV
contract. By addition two more teams the revenue would be cut $2 - $3 million
per current team. Dividing the pie by 10 pays the current members more than
dividing the pie by 12. Also, geographical location is a concern. Once the TV
contract expires, BYU may very well get an invite. We shall see.
UteanymousSalt Lake City, UtahUteology"No, the
reason WAC data is irrelevant today is because both programs have significantly
changed since then."No, the reason why U like to pretend that
college football history began in 2003, is because Utah's history on a
national scale prior to 2003 is non-existent.-------------And that's why I refer to the BCS era which started in 1998 and the MWC
was established in 1999? Feel free to continue using WAC data. I
think on the field results clearly show which data is relevant and which is not.
@Mormon UteAs for "who does more with what they have" well I
would say utah is going to need to do more with what they have because what they
are getting is plummeting, even from the slightly above average stuff
they've been getting the last 3-4 years. Their class this year is nothing
spectacular, in fact they just got a sorta commit from some 3 star out of
California whose only other offers were SJSU and some D2 school.
Congratulations? Even at that the kid said he was committing but was still going
to "look around and field offers" so how is that for a recruit that is
just sold on the ute's no matter what. lolI think whittingham
and co have finally realized that pac12 membership IS NOT going to score utah a
bunch of highly rated recruits, it looks to me like they are going back to their
proven previous system of finding overlooked kids with potential and trying to
develop them. I think it may be to late for whittingham but I guess we'll
@UteanymousUteology"How does the NFL rate the talent
at both schools?"It's hilarious how you have to frantically
switch to an entirely difference, and irrelevant, rating system because you
crashed and burned with college recruit rating system.Would you like
to explain to us the NFL rating for Utah's Sugar Bowl MVP?------------Let me make it simple so that even BYU fans can
understand.A) Having MORE NFL players equals better results on the
national stage* The Sugar Bowl MVP had a team with SIX NFL players
drafted that year, 13 overall that played a significant role on that team.* BYU has had 2 players drafted over the last 4 years, no wonder you
have airport celebrations in September.B) ALL recruiting sites rank
Utah's talent overall better than BYU over the last few years.
@Mormon UteThose are completely different subjects, and not what you
falsely tried to call me out for. Also the fact BYU gets more highly rated
recruits is not a "recent issue due to the Ute's struggles in the Pac
12" it is an 'it's ALWAYS been that way issue' based on BYU
having been the superior program for such a long time and BYU's advantage
with LDS kids that are highly ranked recruits.utah has for 3 of the
last 4 years had a higher rated class, although last year BYU passed them back
up again but BYU has consistently gotten individual recruits that were more
highly ranked. utah's struggles the last few years didn't change
something that was previously a utah advantage, utah has never had that
advantage, utah just got a small 3 year streak of 3 star heavy classes. We can
discuss your other off topic points in another post.
thebigsamoanRichmond, VADon't fool yourself. You know and
I know BYU is being snubbed by the so called P5 conferences not because they
don't think we can compete but simply because they hate Mormons. -----------Oh boy. Here we go again. *shaking head*Always a conspiracy theory with you people isn't it?It
couldn't possibly be that the ACC/SEC sees BYU as a non-Power Five
opponent... because they are NOT IN THE POWER FIVE, now could it? Why allow BYU?
Based on WHAT? If You allow BYU to count, why not Boise... why not Fresno... why
not Northern Illinois? Count BYU and the ACC/SEC knows they would have to deal
with other mid-majors wanting the same thing.Do you even realize how
ridiculous these whack job conspiracy theories make you guys look?
scenic viewBaltimore, MDSo what you're really saying is
the networks couldn't care less about Utah and even being in a P5
conference can't help.-----------I'm not
saying anything. I'm refuting a ridiculous claim from a BYU fan who thinks
the Pac 12 has some conspiracy to keep Utah off the marquee networks. Because
he's mad the P12 took Utah over BYU, he's now trying to make believe
that the conference is also spurning Utah, too. It smacks of jealousy and bitter
resentment, I agree. But that was his argument.The networks are not
choosing many Utah games right now because Utah is not a very good team right
now. They are trending downward in conference play and networks are always
looking for the best teams to televise. That shouldn't be too hard to
Uteanymous"How does the NFL rate the talent at both
schools?"It's quite obvious that according to
Uteology's "NFL ratings" criteria, Brian Johnson wasn't good
enough to be a Division 1 starting QB.Which makes his entire rating
Taysom4HeismanHeber City, UTThere are these sweet inventions
called airplanes that make travel quick, and isn't much different from
Austin to Norman than it is than from Provo to Morgantown.----------Austin to Norman: 372 milesProvo to Morgantown:
Duckhunter,My pride isn't the issue and I have no reason to
slink away. I have proven my point and you have proven the current rosters
favor BYU, but as my numbers show that is likely a recent issue due to the
Ute's struggles in the Pac 12. A bigger issue is what each coaching staff
is able to do with the players they have. Since BYU now has a few more 4 star
recruits, let's see what they are able to do with them. Too bad this
season won't be a good measuring stick, since there is no head to head game
and BYU's schedule is dramatically weaker than Utah's. I'm
looking forward to the next game between our two teams and then we will see who
has managed to make the most of the talent they were able to get.
Uteology"How does the NFL rate the talent at both
schools?"It's hilarious how you have to frantically switch
to an entirely difference, and irrelevant, rating system because you crashed and
burned with college recruit rating system.Would you like to explain
to us the NFL rating for Utah's Sugar Bowl MVP?
Uteology"No, the reason WAC data is irrelevant today is because
both programs have significantly changed since then."No, the
reason why U like to pretend that college football history began in 2003, is
because Utah's history on a national scale prior to 2003 is
non-existent.It's funny how the "official line of
demarcation for "relevance" is defined by the kids on the hill.NOTHING before 2004 counts in football.NOTHING after 2005 counts in
@mormon uteBut I didn't make a claim that BYU had
"recruiting dominance", once again comprehension my friend is important.
I said BYU has gotten more "highly ranked recruits" than utah and the
rosters prove that. BYU has more "highly ranked" recruits than utah has.
It is indisputable. The problem is you can't handle it when the facts
don't support your opinion.You see the recruits are rated on a
5 star system. That means 4 and 5 stars are "highly rated, 1 and 2 stars are
lowly rated, and 3 stars are middle of the pack. utah over the last several
years has had most of their recruits be 3 stars, BYU has had some lower rated
guys but has indisputably had more "highly rated" recruits (4 and 5
star) than utah has. You're just going to have to swallow your
pride and either slink away and never reply or simply aknowledge that you are
wrong because the facts show that you are inarguably wrong. Not only that you
claimed I said something I didn't just to try to make your false point. lol
Duckhunter,I didn't make false claims. I responded to your
claim that BYU has been attracting higher ranked recruits than Utah for years.
So I looked up the past several years of recruiting classes on Yahoo sports
which was reporting Rivals rankings. The stats you have re posted aren't
an apples to apples comparison, but only a snapshot of the rosters and still
doesn't support your claim of BYU out recruiting Utah for years. So you
still haven't proven your point although you may have proven BYU currently
has more four star recruits on the team, that does nothing to support your
overall claim of years of recruiting dominance.
@DuckhunterHow does the NFL rate the talent at both schools?As of today players like Apo, Stout, Rowley, Kaufusi are 4 star players
as much as Heaps is a 5 star player.
talkinsportsGilbert, AZUteologyIt's laughable
that you choose only to compare bowl opponents "in the era just ended",
since that's the only "era" in which Utah was a regular bowl
participant.-------------No, the reason WAC data is
irrelevant today is because both programs have significantly changed since
then.Unless you are claiming that Utah is the same program we were
in the WAC?I concede that BYU clearly dominated a one team WAC,
while Utah was horrendous. We couldn't even compete with BYU those days
let alone make bowl games. McBride describes it the best:"In
the early years, I think BYU felt that they had outgrown the conference and
their people were talking about how BYU would go to the Big 12 or the Pac-10.
They used to come into the Utah game always talking about who they would be
playing in their bowl game.... When we started beating them, they stopped
talking about their bowl game."
@mormon uteAh the irony of your comment "The problem is you
can't handle it when the facts don't support your opinion... As you
have said to others, do your research." Well I have to thank DeepBlue who
already did it for me.Scout4 star recruits on Utahs Roster = 3
( Poutasi, Lutui, Barton)4 star recruits on BYU's Roster = 12
(Warner, Langi, Kearsley, Hinds, Mangum, Apo, Stout, Rowley, Kaufusi, Wilson,
Bills, Hine) Rivals 4 star recruits on Utahs Roster = 7
(Lewis, Hansen, Salt, Thomas, Poutasi, Barton, Scott)4 star recruits on
BYU's Roster = 10 (Warner, Kurtz, Langi, Kearsley, Hinds, Mangum, Apo,
Kaufusi, Bills, Matthews)ESPN4 star recruits on Utahs Roster =
2 (Lotulelei, Law)4 star recruits on BYU's Roster = 9 (Blackmon,
Nacua ESPN300, Warner, Kearsley, Hinds, Pauu, Mangum ESPN300, Apo, Kaufusi) As you can see the only one of the 3 major recruiting sites that even
has it close is rivals, the utah "fan" bible, and even they have BYU
superior in "high" level recruits. I think the lesson here for you, even
though you won't learn it, is do it for yourself before making false
UteologyIt's laughable that you choose only to compare bowl
opponents "in the era just ended", since that's the only
"era" in which Utah was a regular bowl participant.Spin it
anyway that helps you sleep at night, but it won't change these facts:16 of BYU's 32(50%) bowl opponents finished the season ranked in
the Top 25 in both polls.4 of Utah's 17(24%) bowl opponents finished
the season ranked in the Top 25 in both polls.
@RockwellIn 17 bowl games, Utah has only played 6 pre-bowl AP ranked
teams, and the Utes lost to two of those teams.--------------When was the last time BYU played a top 10 team in a bowl game? I
recall it was 1996 about 18 years ago, Utah has done it twice over the last 6
seasons.In the era that just ended:* Utah played 4 AP
ranked teams in bowl games (two in the top 10)* BYU played 3 (zero in the
top 10)Utah played tougher teams and were 3-1 (75%) while BYU was
1-2 (33%).2003: Utah 17 Southern Miss 0 (AP #28 - final #42)2004: Utah 35 Pitt 7 (#18 - #25)2005: Utah 38 GTech 10 (#24 -
unranked)2008: Utah 31 Bama 17 (#4 - #6)2010: Utah 3 Boise 26 (#10 -
#9)2011: Utah 30 GTech 27 (#30 - unranked)1999: BYU 3 Marshall
21 (AP #11 - final AP #10)2001: BYU 10 Louisville 28 (#23 - #17)2005: BYU 28 Cal 35 (#31 - #25)2009: BYU 44 OSU 20 (#16 - #27)2011: BYU 24 Tulsa 21 (#34 - unranked)2012: BYU 23 SDSU 3 (#30 -
unranked)2013: BYU 16 Washington 31 (#33 - #25)
Just because BYU has losing records against teams like Utah and TCU, who are not
doing so well in their respective conferences right now, does not mean that BYU
would be as bad if they joined a P5 conference. They very well could beat every
team their first season, if they ever get to join. While that is not a likely
scenario, my point is that no one can say BYU will be a terrible or great team
in the Big 12 or any other P5 conference without actually playing the games.
You can't use past results to predict future ones.
Duckhunter,The problem is you can't handle it when the facts
don't support your opinion. Recruiting class rankings are based on the
rating of the recruits in each class. The only way for Utah's classes to
be ranked so much higher than BYU is to have more highly ranked recruits than
BYU. As you have said to others, do your research. That way your opinion might
carry some weight.
@ thebigsamoanYou need to check your persecution complex at the
door. BYU is not being left out because people dislike the LDS Church. BYU is
being left out because they come with a ton of baggage, a huge ego, and they
haven't been able to prove that they can consistently compete against P5
teams. Also it has been pointed out that they are in a weird spot. Conferences
are all expanding East, not West.
BYU is not being snubbed by the P5 conferences, they see the Y as a mid major
program,(Which it is, and hard to work with too). If the Y was as great as you
and other posters imply they would have already been included. It has nothing to
do with the persecution claim! BYU's record and history has not impressed
the P5 conferences. take the blue goggles off, no invite will be coming. Stop
the foolishness, and face the facts!
Uteology"That's because we mostly beat our opponents and
you mostly lose to yours."LOL at your extremely disingenuous
spin!In 17 bowl games, Utah has only played 6 pre-bowl AP ranked
teams, and the Utes lost to two of those teams.The ONLY team that
dropped out of the AP ranking after losing to Utah was the barely ranked Georgia
Tech team you cite as an "example".
@ekuteLayton, UTWe lost the battles, were rejected everywhere
we turned... but... "We won the war!" lol.Don't fool
yourself. You know and I know BYU is being snubbed by the so called P5
conferences not because they don't think we can compete but simply because
they hate Mormons. Any other reason is preposterous. BYU's record and
history is far superior than most members of the P5 and they have the gall to
mocked BYU and consider it as a non factor mid major program? Let's be
real! BYU is on the only team outside of the P5 that won a NC and a Heisman
Trophy, didn't they? Stop the foolishness!
tomared"The Pac 12 has absolutely no influence whatsoever which
of its games are selected by ESPN and Fox. The only thing they control is P12
Network, which never carries marquee games."So what you're
really saying is the networks couldn't care less about Utah and even being
in a P5 conference can't help.
skywalkerPalo Alto, CAMormon UteIf Utah is such a
competitive, why is Utah routinely ignored, even by their own conference, when
it comes to which games national broadcasters choose to televise?----------The Pac 12 has absolutely no influence whatsoever which
of its games are selected by ESPN and Fox. The only thing they control is P12
Network, which never carries marquee games.
BlueNtheFaceRancho Cucamonga, CADon't fool yourselves. A
huge piece of you would die. You couldn't hold the conference
affiliation/sticker contest winner over our heads any longer.-----------Before you get too upset at cool-headed Ute fans, just
realize that your entire post is moot.BYU will never get into a P5
so you'll never have to worry about leveling the playing field with us.Utah will always be a power conference team. BYU will always be a
mid-major. The field will never be level between the two again.LOL
CougFaninTX:"Imagine a conference with BYU, Boise, SDSU,
Houston, Cincy, UCF, Conn, SMU, Air Force, USU, CSU, S Florida."I can imagine that. But I imagine that it's pretty sad. Haha!
"That's because we mostly beat our opponents and you mostly lose to
yours."@Uteology,Interesting that you bring that up.
After all, you Ute fans call BYU's schedule weak because they don't
beat ranked opponents. However, much of the time BYU beats a ranked opponent who
goes unranked because BYU beat them. You guys made that point in 2009, although
Oregon State finished unranked because BYU beat them so bad. You can't have
it both ways. From my observations, Ute fans pull whatever card suits them at
the moment, even if it contradicts previous assertions; recruitment stars
(they're important when Utah gets a highly ranked recruit, but not so much
when BYU gets one), strength of schedule (if they had a bad record, it's
because they had a strong schedule, but if their schedule is weak it is because
Utah beats them so their SOS drops), etc.Speaking of strength of
schedules, have you noticed that winning teams have weaker strengths of
schedules and losing teams have stronger SOSs? Whose SOS is stronger:
Oklahoma's or Kansas'? Alabama's or Vanderbilt's?
Oregon's or Colorado's? Just some food for thought.
@ DPTCougarOlympic sports and basketball typically play a series
during road games. For example, in basketball Arizona would play UCLA on
Thursday and USC on that Saturday or Sunday. Meanwhile Arizona' travel
partner, Arizona State, Would play USC on Thursday and UCLA on Saturday or
Sunday. Teams don't literally travel together, but playing road games in a
series is a great way to minimize travel costs and days of school missed. BYU
being so far away, and not having a travel partner is a huge deal.
UteologyYes, Utah made it to the promised land of P5 membership, so
let's what it's gotten U.4-5 with a mediocre bowl in El
Paso3-6 with no bowl2-7 with no bowlExcept
for a nice paycheck to build shiny new facilities from which to watch bowl week,
I'm not seeing how it's improved Utah's football program one
@mormon uteComprehension is your friend. I said other than pac12
membership utah has nothing "superior" to BYU to offer recruits, and
that is a fact. Both facilities are nice enough, just because utah put their
logo on their hot tub seats isn't going to sway a recruit. BYU's
stadium has 20,000 more seats than utah's, and BYU usually has close to
that many more people in it than utah has in theirs, that isn't even
something you should try to use to make a "superior" argument.As for the recruiting, well those are just the facts, BYU gets more highly
ranked recruits than utah just about every single year. utah has never gotten a
5 star recruit, BYU has gotten several, utah almost never gets 4 star recruits
either, BYU usually gets some every single year. What utah has done for a few of
the last 4-5 years is get more mid level (3 star) recruits whereas BYU has taken
some 2 star types. That is why utah's overall ranking in some, not all, of
those years was higher. But so what? No recruit cares that utah got more 3
stars. Kind of a silly argument to try to make.
"Army won a bunch of titles back in the day, are they relevant? Even more
recently CU won a title in 1991, are they relevant?"Apparently
they are more relevant than Utah, or else at least one of Utah's undefeated
seasons would have lead to a national championship.
@sammygSorry chum, BYU's past accomplishments carries them so
much farther than the Rodney Dangerfield's of the PAC10.2. -------------So true, it's been 40+ years and still waiting
for the call."In the early years, I think BYU felt that they had
outgrown the conference and their people were talking about how BYU would go to
the Big 12 or the Pac-10. They used to come into the Utah game
always talking about who they would be playing in their bowl game.... When we
started beating them, they stopped talking about their bowl game." -- Ron McBride
@RockwellELEVEN of BYU's 13 bowl-winning teams finished the
season ranked in the AP.Only FIVE of Utah's 13 bowl-winning
teams finished the season ranked in the AP.-------------That's because we mostly beat our opponents and you mostly lose to yours.
Here's an example from 2005:Utah (6-5) 38 Georgia Tech 10 (AP #24 - Final AP unranked)BYU (6-5) 28 Cal
35 (AP unranked - Final AP #25)
@RockwellAs far as bowl records go, BYU has played more ranked teams
in bowl games than Utah has played bowl games. Once again, absolutely NOBODY
cares about your mediocre wins over other mediocre teams. Certainly not the
polls.----------Sorry, no one cares about what you did
in the WAC, lets look at the current era that just ended. Let's
look at BYU's BCS Resume:* No undefeated seasons* No BCS
bowls* No BCS Bowl wins* No top 10 finishes (Utah 2, TCU 4)*
Losing record against P5 teams* Losing record against top-mid majors (3-9
vs. Utah, 2-5 vs. TCU, and 1-3 vs. Boise)Over all
accomplishments:* BYU had 4 MWC titles (Utah 4)* BYU had 5 AP
top 25 rankings (Utah 4)* BYU had zero national title contenders (Utah had
one in 2008, best mid-major team under BCS with 16 first place AP votes).Bowl Games:* 23% of BYU’s bowl opponents were ranked
in the AP top 25 (36% for Utah) * 32% in the AP top 30 (55% for Utah)* The difference, Utah went 10-1 (91%) and BYU 6-5 (55%)
What's everyone talking about a travel partner? You sound idiotic. Teams
don't travel together. Do you really think it costs that much more for
Texas to fly to Provo than it does to KU? No, they all charter their own
flights. Geographic location and travel partners have little relevance.
@ Riverton CougarArmy won a bunch of titles back in the day, are
they relevant? Even more recently CU won a title in 1991, are they relevant?
"Undefeated SeasonsUtah: 5BYU: 1"So, Utah has 5
attempts at a national championship but fails. BYU has one single undefeated
season, but it leads to a national championship.That is proof that
BYU is more relevant nationally than Utah is.
U fans must be afraid of something or otherwise they would have moved on. They
claim they are so much more superior, but keep coming back to anything BYU. It
is like someone driving and keeps looking in the rear view mirror and
crashes.....well that is what has happened. They crashed and landed at the
bottom of the pac12. The Utes are going no where real fast. At least BYU is in
the news and people are talking. No one and I repeat, no one is talking about
the u. There is just nothing to talk about. Nothing to see here folks, move on.
Oh and take your banners and stickers with you.
You know what really bothers me? Y fans that claim to speak for Utah (and vice
versa). I would love to have BYU join a real conference and have
absolutely no concern about recruiting. What many of you don't understand
is there is a large population of non-Mormons that would NEVER consider going to
BYU. Many people have an issue with the LDS religion and may recruits have no
interest in following your honor code. You can reply that you don't want
that type of kid, and that's fine, but conference affiliation or not there
will be plenty of recruits for Utah.
sammygSpringville, UT"Sorry chum, BYU's past
accomplishments carries them so much farther than the Rodney Dangerfield's
of the PAC10.2.BYU has a list of accomplishments and with that it
does get a narrative along with the media attention and the respect Ute fans so
wished they had."Again, the only people who care about what you
call "accomplishments" are byu fans. Clearly, those who count are not
impressed. How's independence? Not good? Head football coach
doesn't like it, basketball coach doesn't like it, fans don't
like it, Athletic Director can't deliver. Too bad.Rise and
@ Two For Flinching:Interesting comment, in view of the fact that
the Utah was 2-7 against P5 competition last year.
65TossPowerTrapSalmon, IDIf joining the Big-12 means being a doormat
like Utah in the Pac-12 - forget it. I'd rather stay independent.----------So... basically you're saying "I'd rather
APPEAR to be a contender than REALLY be a contender."Whatever
floats your boat. But that's Poser 101.I'm glad Utah has
manned up and is trying to be a real force -- ya know, one that isn't
always immediately followed by "yeah, but they play a weak schedule as a mid
major." Even though so far we are losing that fight.Enjoy that.
"If the Cougars are going to join the Power 5, the conference that makes
most sense is the Big 12, Matich said. All time, BYU owns a 17-21 record against
current Big 12 teams."I love it how the authors at DNews always
love to make it sound like BYU is just sitting back at a big table with all the
P5 offers laid in front of them, just thinking, "I just can't decide
which one to choose."LOL!
JohnInSLCAnd nothing changes the narrative that the Utes and their
fans are the Rodney Dangerfield's of their conference.Whining
all day long... we get no respect. Deflecting from reality on a daily basis.B-b-b-but we're in a P5 conference. And what has that got you...4-5,3-6,2-5, and bowl-less for the last two years kind of says it
all.Sorry chum, BYU's past accomplishments carries them so much
farther than the Rodney Dangerfield's of the PAC10.2. BYU has a
list of accomplishments and with that it does get a narrative along with the
media attention and the respect Ute fans so wished they had.What a
bunch of bitter and jealous whiners. It's pretty pathetic and
hilarious at the same time.
"absolutely NOBODY cares"Rockwell:Ordinarily,
people who use words like "Forever" and "Lifetime" should
care.Your response is ypical, though. Nothing like changing the
parameters to fit the cougar narrative.
RockwellBaltimore, MD"Sorry to burst your crimson bubble,
but absolutely NOBODY cares about your 7- and 8-win "undefeated"
seasons. They were so meaningless, that U didn't even get a sniff at a Top
25 ranking or bowl game."And so you come back with numbers that
prove beyond a shadow of doubt how relevant byu is. Seriously? And to think
that byu is still independent. Gasp! That's how much EVERYBODY cares
As a UT alum I would much rather see the Big XII lure Arizona and Arizona State
from the PAC 12. Those schools would be a better fit for the Big XII than the
JohnInSLCSorry to burst your crimson bubble, but absolutely NOBODY
cares about your 7- and 8-win "undefeated" seasons. They were so
meaningless, that U didn't even get a sniff at a Top 25 ranking or bowl
game.As far as bowl records go, BYU has played more ranked teams in
bowl games than Utah has played bowl games. Once again, absolutely NOBODY cares
about your mediocre wins over other mediocre teams. Certainly not the polls.ELEVEN of BYU's 13 bowl-winning teams finished the season ranked in
the AP.Only FIVE of Utah's 13 bowl-winning teams finished the
season ranked in the AP.FIVE of BYU's bowl-losing teams
finished the season ranked in the AP.NONE of Utah's bowl-losing
teams have been ranked.-------Conference titlesUtah: 24, and countingBYU: 23, and not countingSorry, but
Utah only managed to win 6 WAC/MWC championships. Your previous conference
titles were so meaningless that nobody outside the Rocky Mountain area even
noticed - certainly not the bowls nor the polls.--------------81UteThe Utes built a huge early lead with a 30-year head
start.Since 1962, BYU has owned the series 29-23.Since 1972,
BYU has owned the series 32-15.
skywalker,Just stating the facts in response to Duckhunter. You can
say all you want about what recruits want, but the recruiting class rankings are
what they are. Obviously Utah's win/loss record is hurting recruiting in
recent years as evidenced by the narrowing of the gap between Utah and BYU in
2014. That doesn't change the fact that the numbers don't support
Duckhunter's claim or yours.
byu fans are a crack up. It isn't Utah's head coach the athletic
director, its fans, or anyone else at the university who are groveling at the
feet of power conferences begging for inclusion. Holmoe has sold
you people ponies and rainbows as you have dutifully marched down the
independence path to no where. The entertainment value you people
provide is off the charts. Lol!!
@skywalkerBYU vs. Utah31 wins54 losses4 ties37%
win average.BYU will not overtake Utah in my lifetime.
"Not only has BYU been better lifetime . . ." ("Utah has been
dominated by BYU on a national scale, FOREVER" Ylittlebrother
and skywalker:There you go again, not letting facts get in the way
of your certitude.In fact, since 1922, when BYU decided they would
officially play football, here are the measurements of who is "better and
who has dominated:Overall recordsUtah: 628-435-31 (57.4%
winning percentage)BYU: 518-383-26 (55.9% winning percentage)Bowl records:Utah: 13-4 (76.4%)BYU: 13-18-1 (40.6%)Undefeated SeasonsUtah: 5BYU: 1Conference titlesUtah: 24, and countingBYU: 23, and not countingHead-to-head:
Utah leads 57-34-4Man, you guys sure like to live in the "LaVell
Mormon UteIf Utah is such a competitive, why is Utah routinely
ignored, even by their own conference, when it comes to which games national
broadcasters choose to televise?btw, those shiny new facilities lose
considerable luster when the Utes spend bowl week on the couch instead of on the
playing field.Recruits couldn't care less how difficult your
SOS is if you're not competitive enough to qualify for a bowl.
"on a national scale" is what we've been talking about for 3 1/2
years. Big 12 call yet?
ekuteWe were invited to be nothing more than cannon fodder for the
big boys of a P5 and aren't even good enough to qualify for a bowl anymore,
but we won a few battles against a rival that we supposedly don't even care
about anymore! LOL!Hey BabyBYU will join the Big 12
looooong before the Utes make the playoffs.
Duckhunter,I just need to correct some factual inaccuracies in your
post. First, Utah has plenty to offer recruits other than Pac 12 membership.
First and foremost the new football training facility is widely reported by the
media and former athletes who have seen both Utah's and BYU's as being
superior. Then you have our stadium which has been more recently updated and is
ranked near the top of the Pac 12 in terms of advantage it provides our team.
We also happen to sell out a higher percentage of our games than BYU does which
contributes to that home field advantage.Now, as far as recruiting
classes go, you were right about one thing, it isn't even close. But you
got it the wrong way. Yahoo Sport has Utah ranked ahead of BYU in recruiting
classes for 2011 - 2014. Here are the numbers, 2011: Utah 37 BYU 63; 2012: Utah
28 BYU 62; 2013: Utah 44 BYU 71; 2014: Utah 67 BYU 71. So tell me, if BYU
consistently gets more top rated recruits than Utah, how can Utah's
recruiting classes be ranked so much higher?
Utah'95"BYU dominated Utah in football for two decades, but
that ended over twenty years ago."The only reason Utah fans only
want to talk about head-to-head success is because Utah has been dominated by
BYU on a national scale, FOREVER.In fact, BYU's domination has
been so complete on a national scale that Utah fans don't even try to
We lost the battles, were rejected everywhere we turned... but... "We won
the war!" lol.
Kind of like the bird pontificating if it should become a reptile ?It may want to but can't...the big 12 wants nothing to do with TSDS...BYU will drop sports before they play in a conference that matters.
Utah'95BYU has won the overall, season-long accomplishment
war.Can you dispute that 17 AP Top 25 Finishes isn't much
better than 5?Can you dispute that 23 conference championship
isn't much better than 6?Can you dispute that a 66% winning
percentage during the last 52 years isn't much better than 55%?Can you dispute that 11 11+ win seasons isn't much better than 2?Can you dispute that 32 bowl games isn't much better than 17?It's laughable that Utah fans only want to talk about
"recent" success, when the truth is, you have absolutely NO historic
success.Utah didn't even crack the AP Top 25 until 1994 and
never had an 11+ win season until 2004.
BlueNtheFaceRancho Cucamonga, CA"A huge piece of you would
die. You couldn't hold the conference affiliation/sticker contest winner
over our heads any longer, for one. Also, BYU would fare better than you in a P5
for a couple of reasons. Our recruiting base will expand exponentially and at a
faster rate due to our name recognition (past individual/team awards) and
because the LDS athletes who would opt for P5 schools can now go to their
church's school. We have a fairly large booster organization and extra
sports revenue that can support expansion a little better than the U, as
well."LOL! First, byu has to be invited to the Big 12.
Contrary to what you most byu fans seem to believe byu can't invite
themselves. Remember, byu and its fans spent 30 years talking about their
immanent inclusion in the Pac-10. How did that work out for you? Then,
we'll see if the rest of your assertions have any merit whatsoever.
It's easy to talk big (byu fans are experts) when there is nothing to
prove. Until then, just know that Utah has already accomplished
what you are waiting and begging for.
Isn't there a good team in North Dakota that would be a good traveling
partner for BYU?
DeepBlue,"Recent battles?" I posted the win-loss totals of
the Utah-BYU game over the last 20 years. Do you really consider 1994
recent?BYU dominated Utah in football for two decades, but that
ended over twenty years ago.What "war" has BYU won?
ekute"I doubt that anybody in Alabama would deny the Tide was
owned by the Utes on Jan. 2, 2009."I guarantee that NOBODY
outside of Uteville would consider Utah to even be in the same stratosphere as
Alabama.Utah's win over Alabama was the equivalent of
Appalachian State's win over Michigan.Nothing more than a fluke
upset.Utah's program has been in steady decline since that
Utah'95At the end of the day, despite Utah's recent
head-to-head success, BYU has been better overall.Bottom line:Utah has won more recent battles, but BYU has won the war.
I keep reading comments from self-reported non-BYU haters like Mormon Ute saying
that they'd love love love for BYU to get an invite from the BIG 12. It
would make the state of Utah so much richer in college football prestige AND BYU
would see how tough it would be to play week to week talented teams. Don't fool yourselves. A huge piece of you would die. You couldn't
hold the conference affiliation/sticker contest winner over our heads any
longer, for one. Also, BYU would fare better than you in a P5 for a couple of
reasons. Our recruiting base will expand exponentially and at a faster rate due
to our name recognition (past individual/team awards) and because the LDS
athletes who would opt for P5 schools can now go to their church's school.
We have a fairly large booster organization and extra sports revenue that can
support expansion a little better than the U, as well.Sad times are
a-coming for the Ute fans. Go Cougs.
Personally I can see BYU moving to the Big 12 with Boise State. They are both
solid teams with good Resumes. I mean both teams are much better than Kansas or
Iowa State with better followings than either of those teams, and add more
DeepBlueAnaheim, CA"BYU's 17-21 versus current Big 12
members as well as Bronco's 9-9 record versus the PAC 12 are better than
Kyle's 13-21 record versus the PAC 12."If the point you are
making is that it takes more to be in the Pac-12 than beating the least
competitive teams over a 10 year period, you are right. Which is exactly the
reason byu is not in the Pac-12. As I have stated repeatedly...the Pac-12 is
well out of byu's reach. Isn't independence wonderful?
Mendenhall doesn't want it, the fans don't want it, but Holmoe just
can't deliver. Too bad.Rise and shout!
The Big12 had Colorado as a member, BYU isn't that far from Boulder and
would make little difference with ease of travel like we have today. BYU has
shown it's willing to travel, travel is NOT the issue of Big12 expansion...
skywalker,If you want to play the "with just a play or two"
game, Coach Whittingham could just as easliy be 9-0 against Bronco as Coach
Mendenhall being 7-2 against Utah.Yes, most of the Utah-BYU games
have been extremely competitive. But at the end of the day, what matters is who
won.Utah has won 4 of the last 5, 7 of the last 10, 10 of the last
15, and 13 of the last 20.
BYU's 17-21 versus current Big 12 members as well as Bronco's 9-9
record versus the PAC 12 are better than Kyle's 13-21 record versus the PAC
12.Of course, it's difficult to see that when you're
wearing those crimson shades.
Silly Ute fans, your just as competitive as BYU is with the P5, how about you
stop the trash talking until you make it to a bowl game in conference.
@SoonerUtecoyote120 "BIG 12 is in a tough position using the
"One Champion" format. If it fails then they will want to expand. If it
succeeds then the other conferences will be complaining" SoonerUte"When (not if) that happens, that league will consider dropping
their CCG rather than complaining about the Big12 not having one."Your point is a good one and things may workout that way; but, 12 team
conferences can’t use the Round Robin format, the CCG is a natural fit
into the new playoff system; there is a lot of revenue to be had from the CCG
and if everyone has a CCG then system becomes equal. The BIG12 will have to
expand at some point.
Wow, yet another article about BYU and the Big12. If it happens, it happens.
However it won't happen tomorrow or even next month. So why post another
duplicate article about something that won't happen for years (if it
happens at all)?
This is just amazing to me. How do Utah fans like MyPerspective take everything
I say and completely twist it around to make BYU look bad? Look MP, it's
not me saying BYU needs a partner it's fans of the Big 12 on blogs and
writers on espn & CBS sports. I know you would like to pretend that BYU is
the lowest of low and adds no value but it's time to wake up from nappy
time and see reality. BYU does add value, and most ADs recognize
that...there's no one else that does. This is a legitimate concern for BYU
fans. I listed several other problems BYU realistically faces which you chose to
conveniently ignore. Btw, I feel the same about you...most of the time I respect
your opinion then there are times you just act like a hater with blinders on.
skywalker,Yep. "OWNED"!I doubt that anybody in Alabama
would deny the Tide was owned by the Utes on Jan. 2, 2009.That style
of rationalization only happens in happy valley.
ekuteThe playoff era starts in 2014.You're only
fooling yourself if you think that BYU's head-to-head record with Utah will
be even a tiny factor when the playoff committee starts evaluating BYU's
playoff resume.The fact that you think that BYU's head-to-head
record with Utah will be a factor speaks more to your little brother status,
than it does to BYU's playoff potential.
ekuteOWNED?Only in the mind of a delusional, crimson
glasses wearer.The truth is the Utes have simply gotten lucky in
winning some recent very close games.With just a play or two in
2005, 2010, 2012, and 2013, Bronco could very easily be 7-2 versus Kyle.Overall, the Bronco/Kyle era record speaks for itself,BYU
has more AP Top 25 finishes, more conference championships, more 11+ win
seasons, more bowl games, and a better overall record.
@mormon uteWhiney utah "fans" complain about my posts and
get them removed on occasion, there was no reason for it to be removed, I
don't think the mods even check them, if a complaint is lodged they just do
it.As for my assertion, well I am correct, utah "fans" do
fear it, it terrifies them. You can say it doesn't worry you, fine,
whatever, but the majority of utah "fans" are terrified by that
possibility.It is simple, the one and only thing utah has to offer
that could be considered superior to what BYU offers is their pac12 memebership,
there is nothing else. If that one and only advantage is gone what can utah
possibly offer recruits, especially local and LDS recruits, to keep them away
from BYU? BYU already gets more top rated recruits than utah does, and it really
isn't very close, if it returns to the days of BYU getting almost all of
the best local recruits that would damage what little chance utah has to be even
vaguely competitive. Yes utah "fans" fear it, as does chris
hill, kyle whittingham, larry krystkowiak, etc..
DeepBlue,Well then, it seems that independence or membership in a
mid-major conference are the only viable options for byu since the are recently
owned by a "perennial bottom dweller".
I will probably disappoint fans of both the Cougars and Utes, but here is some
objective information, and some of my opinions on what it means:Since joining the Pac 12, Utah has gone 11-18 against Big 5 teams. The Utes
have gone 1-6 against Big 5 opponents who finished the season ranked.Since joining the Big 12, TCU has gone 7-14 against Big 5 teams. The Horned
Frogs have gone 1-6 against Big 5 opponents who finished the season ranked.Since going independent, BYU has gone 6-11 against Big 5 teams
(including Notre Dame and TCU who is now a Big 12 member). The Cougars have
gone 0-5 against Big 5 opponents who finished the season ranked.BYU
has gone 0-4 against Utah (0-3) and TCU (0-1) since going independent.My conclusions:Utah and TCU have proven that competing in a Big 5
conference is much more difficult than playing in the MWC.There is
no evidence to support that BYU would compete more successfully in a Big 5
conference than those two teams have.Utah has a long ways to go
before they can be considered a consistent contender in the Pac 12.
e kute"Today, 1 P5 membership > none, trumps everything you
just posted."Only in your crimson-colored dreams does simply
being a member of any conference trump a national championship, a Heisman
Trophy, or any of BYU's other accomplishments on a national scale.
Mormon UteThank you for your honest assessment.Given the
changing landscape of college football, Independence isn't ideal, but
it's still far superior for BYU football than remaining in the MWC would
have been.It's impossible to predict how things will play out,
but I still think BYU is better positioned to remain relevant in the playoff era
as an Independent, than as a member of a non-P5. Of course, being in a P5 would
certainly make life easier from a scheduling perspective.
I may be in the minority as a Ute fan in this opinion, but I think independence
was a good move by BYU. Like Utah and every other school in the MWC our
exposure was being stifled by the garbage TV deal Craig Thompson agreed to. So
was TV revenue. Utah took the opportunity offered to get out and BYU needed to
get out too. By going independent BYU has gained more exposure and increased
their TV revenue. They seem to now acknowledge it was only an intermediate step
and that makes sense. They may have burned some bridges in the MWC, but who
cares about the MWC anymore. That conference is now behind both Utah and BYU
and we should be looking toward the future, without the MWC.
ekuteBeing a perennial bottom dweller in a P5 doesn't make you
any better than Indiana, Washington St, Vanderbilt, and many other P5 bottom
dwellers who are nothing more than convenient punching bags for the big boys of
Y's little brotherNot only better overall during the last 52
years, but better recently, during the Bronco/Kyle era:TWICE as many
AP Top finishesBronco 4, Kyle 2THREE times as many 11+ win
seasonsBronco 3, Kyle 1TWICE as many conference
championshipsBronco 2, Kyle 1More BowlsBronco 9, Kyle
7Better overall recordBronco 82-34 (71%), Kyle 75-39 (66%)Higher Sagarin ratingBronco 5, Kyle 4
Y's little brother,Today, 1 P5 membership > none, trumps
everything you just posted.
Y Grad/Y Dad, until BYU goes public with their numbers or someone manages to
gain access and leak them, you are just speculating. But since you opened the
door, let's throw a little more speculation into that. I'd wager that
BYU's facilities are heavily subsidized by the Church, since most of their
athletic facilities serve dual purposes. Take the Marriott Center for example.
More Church meetings are held there in a year's time than basketball games
. The Church probably pays the bulk of the maintenance on that building. Other
facilities are also used by the general student body who pay student fees for
that privilege. Many people consider student fees to be a subsidy and at the U
they run about $9 million a year, so that puts a dent in your $10 million
surplus. Also, athletes scholarships at BYU are also subsidized by the Church,
since the tuition amount they use is the member rate.
"Independence is a great place to launch from."TRANSLATIONBy being independent, we are losing the image of not being a
very good member of whatever conference we belong to. This allows us to
negotiate with the big conferences without the fear they will call up other
members of our current conference. For references (The big conferences never
accepted our line that the other conference members were just jealous of our
unparalleled success anyways)
I guess Duckhunter's comment got removed before I had a chance to read it,
but from what others have said in response to him I gather he believes we all
live in fear of BYU getting into the Big 12. Many others have responded to
refute that and I want to add my name to that list. I would love to see BYU in
the Big 12. Not only for the better opportunities that would provide them, but
also so their fans can be put in the same situation Utah and TCU have
experienced. It won't be any easier for BYU than anyone else to make that
To our jealous little brothers:The numbers don't lie1 National Championship > none1 Heisman Trophy > none15 National Individual Awards > none6 National Hall of
Fame Players > none17 AP Top 25 Finishes > 532
Bowls > 1711 11+ Win Seasons > 216 10+ Win
Seasons > 6410-214-4 (66%) > 323-269-4 (55%)29
head-to-head wins > 23Not only has BYU been better lifetime and
overall during the last 52 years (WAC/MWC/Ind/PAC era), it's an
indisputable FACT that BYU has been SIGNIFICANTLY better than our little
Jeff lsFarr West, 84404"Of the potential adds to the Big
12, BYU is the only school that does generate the positive financial flow to the
conference to be considered for addition. UCF, Cincinatti and a couple of other
institutions don't quite add the financial value to make a 12 way split of
revenues. That is what the main problem is. Finding a partner school for BYU to
include in the Big 12 is the major hurdle."Yeah, that's it,
Jeff. Realignment has come and gone 3 or 4 times and byu and their fans are
still on the outside saying..."if only there was another team as worthy as
us..."Huge LOL!, Jeff. Just huge.
@BIG AL...."BYU proves year after year that it can compete well against the
Power 5 institutions (only one of the reasons the most recent snub by the SEC is
ridiculous). Keep the Independent status, and keep being a fly in their
proverbial ointment!"LOL, thank you for that laugh this morning
I really needed it.
Of the potential adds to the Big 12, BYU is the only school that does generate
the positive financial flow to the conference to be considered for addition.
UCF, Cincinatti and a couple of other institutions don't quite add the
financial value to make a 12 way split of revenues. That is what the main
problem is. Finding a partner school for BYU to include in the Big 12 is the
If the BIG 12 expands they will head East not West. The order of precedence:1. UConn (TV market rank: #30)2. Cincinnati (#34)3. UCF
(#19)4. BYU (#33)Source: Brett McMurphy (ESPN)
ute fans .. before you start feeling all high and mighty, you should realize
that utah only has 9 wins against 14 losses against current Big 12 teams. Also,
the utes only went 2-7 against P5 teams last year. Reality comes crashing down
sometimes doesn't it ?
the problem with the Ute fan argument that "no one wants BYU" is it is
proved silly by the ESPN contract given the Cougars. No credible sports fan
can say that ESPN was too naive to figure out if BYU brings eyeballs and is a
national brand….you trolls are just being silly. Now if you want the
truth, the vast majority of college football fans are uncertain of the
difference between Utah and Utah State…not sure of their shifting mascot
and more importantly, don't care if their games are broadcast unless played
against USC or Oregon…Go Utah University Aggies or whatever.
I have been listening to Trevor Matich for years. He is consistently biased
towards BYU. He may say what fans want to hear but his inductive reasoning is
Obviously the BIG 12 is the first choice but independence is the best option for
the present despite its' follies. A good number of BYU fans
still think independence is the answer, but most see it as an eventual disaster
if college football continues to morph itself more and more into an elitist
capitalist entity. This is ironic considering most cougar fans are in favor of
everything capitalistic.Right now though, BYU gets to play a few
profile games with 'exposure' which leaves them ripe for 10 win
seasons. The majority of their schedule is against extremely weak cream puffs
though. The bowl game thing is a lock, but it is not the game that really
excites anyone. On the other hand, the hyped bowl games are probably just as
likely for BYU as for Utah, if not more so. Basically, if BYU is a good football
team, they have a chance to run the table with the current schedule. Utah
doesn't have a prayer to do that. But if the stars align for the Utes, they
could win the conference if parity produces a number of losses for each PAC 12
team. Dreaming of roses.
Glad to see little brother utes moved on!
I've heard speculation that BYU's athletic department runs about a $10
mil surplus. Maybe if you think traditionally, there is no financial incentive
for the Big 12 to go to 12 members. I gotta think with what BYU DOES bring to
the table, plus $10 mil to play with, there oughta be a creative way to make BYU
financially appealing.Time to think outside the box. If ESPN money
was extra to what the Big 12 already has, there should be a way to keep
(increase) our exposure, increase the ESPN revenue and buy our way into a
scheduling arrangement, as a full member, football-only member or invited
guest.If they didn't have to share their pie with BYU, maybe a
win-win can be structured.
If BIG XII is forced to have 12 to have a CCG, UCF and BYU have the be the
logical choices. It's all about money and recruiting, and none of the
other schools have as much to offer as these two.If BIG XII gets a
bye, and is allowed to operate with 10 teams, I expect a couple of the other
conferences to shed some dead wood to get back to 10 increase revenue share with
the bigger name schools in the conference.If P5 separate themselves
from the other conferences, I expect big realignment in the non P5 conferences.
Look for a new conference that plucks the best schools from the non P5 to make a
new conference that will be able to compete at the P5 level. Imagine a
conference with BYU, Boise, SDSU, Houston, Cincy, UCF, Conn, SMU, Air Force,
USU, CSU, S Florida.
"BYU joining the Big 12 would send shock waves through Utedom creating a
panic attack. Utah fans know that BYU would be far more successful in the Big
12, than our little brothers have been in the PAC 12"LOLBYU fans, always superior to Utah in hypothetical situations, but never
on the field.I would love to see BYU catch up to Utah and join a
major conference. Having two P5 teams that close to home, in different
conferences would make things even more interesting, and it would be great for
the state. In the mean time though, the entitled whining /
desperation from some of the fans and coaches continues to be entertaining.
Duckhunter"You utah "fans" dread the possibilities of
this ever happening, it terrifies you, and that is what makes it fun."News of BYU joining the Big 12 would send shock waves through Utedom
creating a panic attack.Utah fans know that BYU would be far more
successful in the Big 12, than our little brothers have been in the PAC 12.
The Y will be fine. Conference alignment isn't finished, and the playoffs
are just getting started. P5 doesn't go into a 4 team playoff. Something
will give. I can't see a change to only 4 power conferences. I wonder
about 6 power conferences, as any conference with more than 12 teams becomes
unwieldy. I do see the playoff quickly becoming 8 teams, that way you have each
of the p5 with a rep and 3 at large teams. Right now I am glad BYU has remained
indy for two reasons. First, we aren't ready for a p5 schedule, but
through independence we can slowly build to that level through scheduling and
better recruiting through our national TV exposure. Second, we wouldn't
want to end up like BSU having to back out of something and then pay a lot of
money for nothing. If we start winning against the P5 schools we will either
get an invite to a power conference or be one of those 8 teams when the playoffs
are expanded. We can learn to swim in the shallow end first. Our neighbor to
the north chose the deep end first and it isn't pretty to watch.
@Riverton Cougar@Uteology"That can't be right
can it? We've been told over and over that BYU would be competitive in a P5
league. Didn't Phil Steel rank BYU in the middle of the pack of P5 leagues
this year?"Well, that's certainly better than what Utah has
done, so I wouldn't talk. Besides, being in the middle is pretty close to
being competitive; is the #5 team in the Big 12 considered to be competitive?-------------My bad, please remind me again what year did
BYU finish #5 in the Big 12?* BYU played 7 P5 games in one season
for the first time in 2013. The results? BYU finished 2-5. * Utah
played 11 P5 games in one season for the first time in 2011. The results? Utah
I'm not sure how this works geographically. Are the proposing football
only? Is the Big 12 willing to do that? It would be hard on the non-revenue
sports.Does this really work financially? Does BYU really bring
enough extra views to make the pie big enough that each slice of the current ten
members won't be less? Are their any hard numbers on this? It
would be interesting for the sports writers at the Deseret News to put together
an article called "The Case for BYU in the BIG 12" with real numbers on
these and other issues. I think television rights, and "no Sunday Play"
would have to be accounted for. Other than the last issue, it would seem
everything else is negotiable. It seems like everyone is simply sniping and
talking in broad generalities.
Personally I think BYU fits in the Big 12. Wouldn't mind seeming them end
up their. That being said, is the Big 12 willing to add another Texas size ego
to their mix? No idea, we will have to wait a while if Fox Sports is right:
"Despite persistent rumors and rumblings since the Big 12
settled on 10 members, expansion is assuredly not on the agenda ... BYU, spurned
by the ACC and SEC's recent scheduling announcements, won't be
sneaking in a back door at the Four Seasons Resort and Club in Irving, Texas to
make its case for membership now or at any foreseeable point in the future."
-- Fox Sports Southwest
@MyPerspectiveThanks for proving my points: Ute fans feel superior
because of conference affiliation and are obsessed enough with BYU to comment on
their articles (and they have increased significantly in number, I can tell; is
the state of UofU football really in that bad of shape?).It looks
like Duckhunter is right about the Ute fans' worst nightmare being BYU
getting a P5 conference invite.
Alpine Coug:"Ekute: Spin it anyway you want, the MWC would kill
to have BYU back as their cornerstone program. BYU will never ever willingly
choose to return to the MWC."Spin it anyway you want, but the
MWC would never invite the cougars back to join their conference. You'd
burned too many bridges to return to the MWC. If you want to make a case for Y
rejecting the MWC rather than the MWC having absolutely NO interest in the Y,
then do so after they invite you back. If they don't invite you
back...well that speaks volumes!
What will tomorrows BYU story be? I believe that there is more angst in cougar
land than most realize, they to can see where it's all heading. Pipe dreams
won't help what's coming!
@ Duckhunter"You utah "fans" dread the possibilities of
this ever happening, it terrifies you, and that is what makes it fun."Don't count me in that group. I would love to see BYU in the
BIG-12 because the state of Utah would become one of the greatest places for
college football in the nation. Having the elite Big-12 and PAC-12 programs
visiting stadiums 45 minutes from each other on a regulate basis would be
Can we give this Big 12 non-story a rest?The Big 12 is not
interested in BYU because the Cougars don't bring enough to the table for
it to be worth discussion by the conference.Enough already.Next story...
Culturally, having lived in TX, I think BYU would fit in with the Big-12,
realizing that the Big-12 includes schools outside TX. It's a very
conservative atmosphere. Having attended Big-12 games, it's a great
atmosphere with knowledgeable fans. As other have stated, BYU should
have tried harder years ago to get into the Big-12. As a Ute fan, I don't
expect to go to the Rose Bowl on an annual basis, but love to see the Utes
compete against PAC 12 competition on a regular basis (please don't show
your idiocy by starting the anti PAC 12 rants).While I'm a Ute,
my daughter currently attends BYU and 4 of my siblings graduated from BYU -
I'm not a BYU hater. Joining the BIG-12 would certainly make me more
interested in watching their games on a more regular basis as the Big-12 is a
great conference.Go Utes!
Riverton CougarRiverton, UT@MyPerspectiveIf you
believe Utah is a superior school to BYU simply because of PAC-12 membership,
then it is you who are delusional. You commented on another article how BYU fans
can't "get past" Utah because they keep on commenting. Well, an
honest search and evaluation will show that far more Utah fans comment on BYU
articles with more regularity than BYU fans on Utah articles. LOL,
the Pac-12 performed the evaluation and made the call...byu was found wanting
for well documented reasons. Put down the comic books.Regarding
comments on byu articles...there is nothing going at Utah right now. No
potential NCAA violations. No angst about deserving more than we have (who
could ask for a better situation than Utah is in?)asking for entitlements. No
body in Utah's athletic department is groveling for respect. Nope. None of
that going on at Utah. It's boring. Thank goodness for byu
articles.Rise and shout!
Should the y go Big 12 or stay independent? Will the u ever be relevant in the
PAC 12? blah blah blah . . . New off-season same old stories. That
is the problem with the excessive emphasis on being eligible to theoretically
play for the NC. It has ruined many of the great things about college football
such as healthy regional rivalries and the pride of winning your conference
coyote120 "BIG 12 is in a tough position using the "One Champion"
format. If it fails then they will want to expand. If it succeeds then the other
conferences will be complaining"A CCG is optional. The SEC
established the CCG as a way to make extra money. The Big 12 learned a hard
lesson that an upset in the CCG can cost your league a shot at the National
Title.What you describe is possible, but a more likely scenario is
the PAC/B1G/SEC/ACC losing a shot at the NC due do an upset in their own CCG.
When (not if) that happens, that league will consider dropping their CCG rather
than complaining about the Big12 not having one.
Should the Y try to join a P5 conference like the Big 12? Yes, most likely the
best move.Is the Big 12 going to invite them to join? Well, that
isn't most likely going to happen soon.
Ekute: Spin it anyway you want, the MWC would kill to have BYU back as their
cornerstone program. BYU will never ever willingly choose to return to the
MWC.81Ute: Thanks for your sympathy for us poor long-suffering BYU
fans. Not so sure why so much credence is given to what WVU's AD (Luck)
has said. Is he the new spokesman for the Big XII or does he see BYU as a
future competition? Pretty certain that he will have little, if any, say about
BYU's future invitation to the Big XII.Brave Sir Robin: While
there is 0% chance of you ever landing a date with Sophia Vergara, there is at
least a 60%-75% chance that BYU will end up in one of the P5 or eventual Super
Conferences when the smoke settles. Gladly take those odds!
@CougdawgLet me see if I understand you correctly. The ONLY reason
that BYU is still in 40 years of discussions with the Big 12 is because lack of
qualified programs to join with you? Priceless!!
@MyPerspectiveIf you believe Utah is a superior school to BYU simply
because of PAC-12 membership, then it is you who are delusional. You commented
on another article how BYU fans can't "get past" Utah because they
keep on commenting. Well, an honest search and evaluation will show that far
more Utah fans comment on BYU articles with more regularity than BYU fans on
Utah articles. And considering that BYU's fanbase is significantly larger,
that says a lot. I really don't see a need to go to Utah articles and mock
Utah because I let the facts speak for themselves. A starting QB wouldn't
mock the 2nd string QB unless the starting QB wasn't confident in his
superiority.@Uteology"That can't be right can
it? We've been told over and over that BYU would be competitive in a P5
league. Didn't Phil Steel rank BYU in the middle of the pack of P5 leagues
this year?"Well, that's certainly better than what Utah has
done, so I wouldn't talk. Besides, being in the middle is pretty close to
being competitive; is the #5 team in the Big 12 considered to be competitive?
I'd like to see this poll question:"Should BYU join the Big 12 if
it means finishing behind 2-7 TCU?"Of course, avid Cougar fans
will comb through their statistics back to 1972 and make a case for why -- on
paper -- the team should do better. But reality is found on the field. On the
field, TCU owned BYU in the MWC. On the field, BYU would fare no better than
TCU, so replacing TCU as the league doormat should be expected.Simple Yes or No. Would you want to see BYU "accepted" into the
majors, if the cost of acceptance is finishing 2-7 in conference play year after
There are 2 statements that contradict each other:1) BYU won't
get into the Big 12 even though they are a worthy team because of one problem.
Who will join them? The Big 12 can't find a team to join BYU.2) BYU
won't get into the Big 12 because Houston/UCF/Cincinatti are better options
and they would add those schools before BYU.Well, which is it?Some people say that the Big 12 can't find another option out west.
Here's my question with that.Who cares?Adding BYU
and UCF gets you into 2 completely new markets. It makes more money than BYU and
Boise who are essentially the same market, or BYU and Houston, since Houston is
already in the Big 12 market.Obviously, with Iowa St. and West
Virginia far away from another conference member, the Big 12 does not care about
travel partners or geographic proximity, so saying we need another team out west
is ridiculous.Some people say, "Travel will be too much with
BYU."There are these sweet inventions called airplanes that make
travel quick and the price isn't much different from Austin to Norman than
it is than from Provo to Morgantown.
Cougsndawgs:"That's the reality for BYU, no one else can
join with them that brings enough to the table."That's
exactly the type of logic and hubris continually displayed by byu and its fans
which will keep byu from joining the big kid's table. The Big XII
explicitly stated that NO team(s) currently add enough value to warrant an
invite to the conference.
BIG 12 is in a tough position using the "One Champion" format. If it
fails then they will want to expand. If it succeeds then the other conferences
will be complaining that the Big 12 has an advantage with 10 teams and the BIG
12 will be forced to expand. Big 12 expansion is coming ,the real question is
who will be available for the picking when they do.
I think BYU blew it when they didn't do everything possible to join the Big
12 a few years ago. Unfortunately, the Big 12 has now added WVU. I just
don't see the league now adding another school with no travelling partner
that is in yet another own time zone. If the Big 12 expands, they are going to
add another school from the east before anything else. I fully expect the Big
12 to look east going forward and not west. BYU should have had a great shot
at the Big 12 when everything was in chaos. However, from all reports it seems
like BYU thought they could name their own price rather than offering everything
possible to get into the league. This was a big mistake. I'm afraid
they are now locked out as the Big 12 looks east and not west. As far as the
MWC goes, I think BYU burned too many bridges when they left. Therefore, the
MWC is probably not an option either. Suddenly, the decision to go independent
is not looking near so smart as it seemed a few years ago.
CougsndawgsWest Point , UT"I would love to see BYU in the
Big 12 but the reality is there isn't another attractive program to bring
with them to get to a championship game and make expansion worthwhile. BYU may
bring a large enough quality brand but who else does to join them? Answer: No
One."So, the underlying assertion here is that the only reason
it isn't in a Power 5 conference is the fault of every other university
that can't qualify. Is that what you are saying?Honestly,
cougsndawgs, there are times when your comments are insightful and absolutely
ring true. Then there are times when you are just flat out off your meds.
It's incredibly hard to understand how you people see byu as everything
that everyone wants to have and to be a part of when the message communicated
over and over again is rejection. How do you people live in a such a perpetual
state of denial? btw...like it or not, cougsndawgs, Utah meets the
criteria of the Pac-12 which is well out of reach for byu.
Che26Until the Cougs win the WCC in men's basketball or
baseball, winning the Commisioners Cup is akin to getting the best overall GPA
but only "B"s in the hardest classes. The Big XII had two of the four
teams in the CWS this year and seven teams go to the NCAA Men's Basketball
Tournament. I'm not prognosticating that things won't change in the
future, but we aren't currently in a position to tell the Big XII that we
are all that and a bag of chips when we can't seem to have a monster season
in football or a dominant showing in basketball.
The problem I have is that none of these teams are our traditional regional
rivals. We've had pretty much the same group of teams for a lot of years
and they are in our region. Sometimes I think that TV and money have ruined
college football. I liked it a lot better when we were all in the MWC. Sure, I
didn't like the TV mess that was created by "The Mountain." But,
it was our traditional conference with our traditional rivals.I
realize the a lot of what propels BYU football is the exposure for the Church
and the current national TV deal is great for that. I just have nostalgia for
the days when we had our traditional group of western teams and everything
didn't have to hang on getting a national championship.
The Big 12 needs to get dropped from the playoff due to not having played a CCG
before they finally go ahead and add a pair of teams, but even when they DO
decide to expand, it won't be Holmoe's phone that'll be ringing.
When the Big 12 expands, they'll take 2 of the following 4 teams:
Cincinnati, UCF, USF, and Tulane. Personally, I think they'll go for UC
and UCF in order to tap into the Ohio and Florida markets. USF could also get
the Big 12 into Florida, but UCF had the better Football program, and the larger
alumni association. Tulane is the long shot, as it does nothing more than get
the Big 12 a bigger toehold into New Orleans/LA. But one thing that's for
sure...it won't be the Y. If the Y decides to join a conference,
it'll have to petition C-USA, because the MWC won't take 'em
back. They'd already burned that bridge.
Be patient BYU.
If joining the Big-12 means being a doormat like Utah in the Pac-12 - forget it.
I'd rather stay independent.
I would love to see BYU in the Big 12 but the reality is there isn't
another attractive program to bring with them to get to a championship game and
make expansion worthwhile. BYU may bring a large enough quality brand but who
else does to join them? Answer: No One. If there had been no one else to join
with Utah (Colorado) that commanded a large tv market (Denver), and owned the
desired AAU and research status (Colorado) does anyone honestly think the PAC
would have taken Utah? No they wouldn't have. That's the reality for
BYU, no one else can join with them that brings enough to the table...then on
top of that there's no Sunday play, a reputation for entitlement (deserved
or not). These are all hurdles that BYU will have to overcome to ever be in the
Big 12. I think Louisville going to the ACC hurt BYU far more than
people realize. They would have been a perfect combination...travel for WVU and
a quality brand. Big 12 snoozed and they lost...in the end BYU may have lost
I don't understand how the so-called FIVE can control college football,
since ALL schools fall under the rules of the NCAA...If so, shouldn't ALL
schools have the same opportunities??? Being from the Midwest: Kansan by birth,
Missourian by history, and a Texan by heart, BYU IS THE PERFECT FIT FOR THE BIG
12. There is a STRONG POPULATION OF BYU FANS In every Big 12 STATE...SO
BRING IT ON....GO COUGARS!!!!
Forget the Big 12. Do you want to end up with a perennial doormat that can only
muster 5 win seasons and embarrassing Pac 12, oops, I mean embarrassing Big 12
window stickers on your car? Play 4 tough games against big name opponents and
8 creampuffs. Win 10 a season and you'll have all the exposure you'll
"All time, BYU owns a 17-21 record against current Big 12 teams."That can't be right can it? We've been told over and over
that BYU would be competitive in a P5 league. Didn't Phil Steel rank BYU
in the middle of the pack of P5 leagues this year?
I continue to suffer heartache for my fellow college football fans that happen
to cheer for BYU. The outcome is seen by everybody but you. What else would
you expect Mr. Matich to say?Myths:1. Go back to MWC - please
do a little research and read about the Utah invitation to the PAC and then
BYU's move to independence. There is no option to return to MWC.2. Join Big12 - West Virginia will get a travel partner in the east long
before there is a team from the west invited. There could be multiple schools
added simultaneously but east first. Then does it make sense to have two teams
in the east? Not really...think about it. I predict eastern movement not
western (per WV AD Lucks comments). Who would be BYU's travel partner?
Could both of those schools generate $20-million+ each to justify divide by
12?3. Football only membership - nonstarter, no conference is going
to bend/break the rules for BYU maybe the AAC. Geographically, the AAC
doesn't make sense. Please don't even start with the absurd idea of
football only in the BIG-12 or PAC-12, there is no value to the conferences.
What I find funny? Is that all the Ute trolls that tried to make a name for
themselves on SL Trib comment boards, have move on over to the Des News comment
boards to try to get an audience. Hilarious!
I completely agree with Mormon Ute: the incentive for expansion for the Big 12
is the same as was indicated for the Pac 10/12 - to be able to have 2 divisions
and a conference championship. That's how increasing the so-called
"denominator" to 12 makes sense - the additional revenue exceeds the
additional 2-team allocation (in theory). You also expend your TV market
footprint and hopefully work a more lucrative TV deal. If the Big 12 offers a
"Football only" invitation, BYU should take it, no question.Even if BYU can manage a Notre Dame-type arrangement with the Big 12, to play
5 opponents a year for the time being, they should take it. Anything to improve
their conference alignment prospects. When the deck chairs get shuffled again,
it will happen quickly. As far as rejoining the MW, no way, no how.
Hey Ute fans, tell us what you think about this subject. We BYU fans really want
to know. Really.TIA, BlueNtheFaceGo Cougs.
If the Power5 conferences break off from the rest of college football and create
their own rules and governing body, what would BYU do (if they didn't get
in one of those conferences)? Would they rejoin the MW? Continue independent?
Drop sports altogether? Has anyone heard any rumors about this scenario?
It's not at all far fetched....
I think BYU's best option is to go football only into the Big 12. Leave
the other sports in the WCC. That way they don't have to worry about
Sunday play and they get access to everything the want in football. Hopefully
the Big 12 will be willing to look consider that.
@ Big AlBYU went 2-5 against P5 teams last year, and 5 (all losses)
of those games BYU had a bye week, or extended time to prepare for the game. To
me that says BYU can't compete at a P5 level even when the "week-in,
week-out" grind component has been removed.
SportsChemistryJust a note BYU won their second Commissioners cup
from the WCC. The cup is an all sports reward presented at the end of the
academic year. This last year the 2013-2014 year BYU won the Cup by a record
Another article on the disappointment of independence. I wonder if anyone has
stopped to consider the damage control byu will have to do if, after the Power 5
separate themselves from the rest of the pack, byu remains on the outside.
Independence will have to be sold to byu fans all over again."But if BYU loses a seat at the table as an independent, then being in a
conference would be the only option."byu can't lose
something they never had.
I personally like the "outsider" role BYU's independence
provides--even though I see some of the disadvantages of having no conference
alignment. Conference and athletic "independence" seems to fit in with
BYU's desire for collegiate independence in virtually all other phases of
higher education and academia. I think the "spoiler" role is one BYU
should relish--a David amidst all the arrogance of the PAC-12 and SEC and Big-10
Goliaths. BYU proves year after year that it can compete well
against the Power 5 institutions (only one of the reasons the most recent snub
by the SEC is ridiculous). Keep the Independent status, and keep being a fly in
their proverbial ointment!
"BYU brings eyeballs to television sets. That makes money for everybody. And
when BYU makes you money, you find a place for BYU.”BYU fans
keep reciting this narrative, but it seems to be at odds with reality.
WVU's AD is quoted saying ""Our denominator is 10. The more you
split it up ... I don't think we can find a partner who's available
right now to stay at the value we have (per school) or let alone increase what
we have. That's the consensus we have (staying at 10)." If BYU was
worth as much as the DNews suggests, they would have been the first team taken
when the first round of expansion happened.
With all of the conference realignment I always wonder what would have happened
if Boise State, BYU, TCU, and Utah had stuck together. Could they have
generated any excitement? Sure, the MWC had dead weight like UNLV, San Jose
State, Wyoming, and others. But every conference has dead weight, look at the
Pac-12 with Utah, Colorado, and Washington State. Look at the Big-12 with
Kansas and TCU. If BYU could just get a yearly schedule similar to what Notre
Dame has then I think they are fine as an independent.
The Big 12 and the MWC don't want byu. It better focus on conference usa
and the aac.
"Should Cougars focus on getting into Big 12"? Sure, focus all you
want...you're not getting in.I'm focusing on getting a
date with Sophia Vergara. That's about as likely as BYU getting into a P5
“I think BYU in the Big 12 makes a lot of sense. It makes sense
geographically but it also makes sense from a football standpoint,” Matich
said.Really? The closest school is what, Texas Tech? And then you
also have to consider Sunday play. Baseball, basketball, golf, etc. are played
on Sundays. The WCC has been very accommodating of that. And, considering BYU
hasn't mopped the floor with the WCC like they did the WAC and the MWC, I
don't think there will be a lot of leverage for the Big XII to change their
current schedules.If the Big XII does expand, it's going to be
east. In my opinion, BYU needs to get talking to Colorado State, the Air Force
Academy, or Wyoming to lobby for football-only inclusion to the PAC-12. Sunday
play won't be a factor, they actually make sense geographically, and they
already have in-state rivals. I think the PAC-12 is still holding out that Texas
and Oklahoma will come over, but since the Big XII looks like they are thriving,
don't think that will happen.
They could always return to their glory days in the Mountain West. I could see
that happening if they don't get in with the Big 12. The Ute's could
also come back to the Mountain West to make it 14 teams and then they both can
become more relevant.
Won't they have to stay independent unless they're willing to play
events on Sunday?
BYU is good for the present but needs to look bigger and at a conference
affiliation. And that's what they've been doing. They haven't
been keeping quiet on the subject and waiting like there's no problem with
remaining independent. They've been actively looking for ways to improve
their situation and will continue to do so. Good for the BYU AD and Dept for
keeping this in the news so much, now some execution on the field will go a long
way. Go Cougars!