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Comments about ‘Is independence a viable option for BYU, or should Cougars focus on getting into Big 12?’

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Published: Thursday, July 10 2014 11:40 a.m. MDT

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Mormon Ute
Kaysville, UT

Duckhunter,

It's too bad the DNews won't let us post links, because it is obvious you and I are looking at different numbers and I can't explain it. I have checked the same sources you have cited and I am checking for the most recent updates to their data. Still the only one that consistently supports your claim is Scout.com. All I can say is we'll have to leave that argument up in the air.

One fact that can't be disputed is this. The Utes have done well with the talent they have. Two undefeated seasons ending in BCS bowl wins and top 10 rankings in the past 9 years along with 6 wins over BYU during that time is a decent run. If we believe the recruiting numbers you claim, Utah has accomplished far more during the past 8 years with lesser talent than BYU has.

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

It's pretty simply Mormon Ute, all you do is go to the recruiting sites then go to Team Rankings, once you pull those up you put it on the year you want to see, in our case here that is 2014 because the last years class all signed in February 2014. Then you simply look at the list of rankings. I'll save you the trouble because it appears you are struggling with it.

Scout

BYU #62
utah #69

ESPN

BYU #62
utah #64

247 Sports

BYU #64
utah #66

Rivals

utah #67
BYU #71

So two of the sites (rivals and scout) give recruits an average star rank. Here those are for both schools recruits.

Scout

BYU 2.74
utah 2.65

Rivals

BYU 2.68
utah 2.63

Average for both

BYU 2.71
utah 2.64

So for individual recruits BYU's outranked utah's by .07

Anyway you look at it I was correct. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say you're confused.

Now neither of them were ranked all that high, and they were close to each other on all 4 sites but when 3 of the 4 sites rank BYU h

Cougsndawgs
West Point , UT

I've been gone for a bit...just caught up.

MyPersective and others...it seems you misunderstood what I was saying about BYU bringing more value than a possible partner. I wasn't trying to say that's the only reason they aren't in, just one of a few. You accused me of arrogance & hubris to say such a thing, and yet that is one of the reasons given by other pundits, including Frank the Tank who has often been referred to in expansion predictions, and has often been right. BYU does bring a lot of value...there isn't another candidate available (unless P5 schools decide to forget about the GOR agreements() that brings the same value. That's a fact...name one that does. Other reasons I gave were geography, a reputation for being difficult, Sunday play. Or did you choose to ignore those? Honestly MP, sometimes I think you get an idea in your head of what BYU fans think and then follow that stereotype to evaluate what one (myself in this case) is trying to express. Bring on August please...

Mormon Ute
Kaysville, UT

Duckhunter,

Don't be patronizing. It only serves to further the bad image many in the media say is keeping BYU out of a major conference.

I any case, no matter what you post here I already told you what I saw and what you are posting from 247 isn't what I see when I go to their site. As I said, the date on the sight I was looking at was 7/13/2014 so I can only conclude you are looking at old data before the recruiting period had ended. Of course I know you're never going to admit you've been wrong, even if you actually see it in front of your face.

2BCSWINS
West of I15, UT

@Ducky...."Those are completely different subjects, and not what you falsely tried to call me out for. Also the fact BYU gets more highly rated recruits is not a "recent issue due to the Ute's struggles in the Pac 12" it is an 'it's ALWAYS been that way issue' based on BYU having been the superior program for such a long time and BYU's advantage with LDS kids that are highly ranked recruits."

Ducky who cares either way your mighty cougies can't beat Utah on the field where it matters....LOL! I love how jealous you are of the utes and how much it eats at you the cougies can't beat utah....LOL!

2BCSWINS
West of I15, UT

@sports authority....."The BYU jealousy that you mock is nothing compared to the jealousy of the kids on the hill to BYU's Crystal Football National Championship trophy."

Let's see would I rather have my team have an undefeated season against 0 ranked teams barley beat a 6-6 Michigan team in holiday bowl and be the sole reason the BCS was formed or have undefeated season against several ranked teams and a dominating sugar bowl victory over bar none the best college football program the last 10 years Alabama.

Yes pretty easy decsion there so again the cougie "fans" jealousy of that is classic, love it!! LOL!

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

@mormon ute

Anyone can go and look and anyone can go and see it. Of course I won't admit I "am wrong" when I am not and anyone at all can go and see that I am not. Just to humor you I went again to all of the sites and looked under the team rankings for 2014 and once again every single one of them, including 247, has it ranked exactly the way I posted here. That was in the last few minutes that I checked them.

Let me help you. Google 247sports and then click on "Team Rankings" It will bring up 2015 because that is current in the upper left corner. If you click on 2015 it will drop down a list of other years. click on 2014. The list will appear and all you have to do is scroll down thorugh it and there it is plain as day. BYU ranked 64th and utah below them ranked 66th.

It is plain to see, black and white, clear as day.

Mormon Ute
Kaysville, UT

Ya gotta love technology, Duckhunter. So I followed your instructions and got exactly the results you said. Then I tried it again searching the way I have been searching. I Googled 2014 College Football Recruiting Class Rankings, then scrolled down to 247 Sports and clicked on it. That took me to a page that looks identical to the one you directed me too, except for the teams were in different order. I checked everything on the page including the date it was last updated and it looked like the most recent version. The problem is the page you directed me too also had today's date on it. So I don't know which they consider to be their most recent one and I don't know which to rely on. Somebody with more internet and computer knowledge than me will have to explain how this happens, but this just illustrates what I always tell my kids about not believing everything you see on the internet.

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

@Mormon Ute

I'll take your word for it but it still confirms what I said to you that this last year BYU not only caught but surpassed utah in the recruit rankings.

Mormon Ute
Kaysville, UT

Duckhunter,

Given the fact that at least one ranking service has Utah still ahead and the rankings are all within a few places of each other, I'd say BYU caught up, but really didn't surpass the U. Now it will be interesting to see what impact this has. I attribute the change mostly to the U's struggles in the Pac 12 and I think with the new coaching staff and hopefully more stability at key positions that will change over the next several seasons. As I have always said, I look forward to the rivalry resuming in 2016. It will be fun to see if the two teams are further apart or about the same and which direction each has gone by then. Going back to the topic of this article, I would say recruiting is one thing BYU would definitely benefit from in getting into a P5 conference. The Ute's definitely saw an uptick that started with the Fiesta Bowl win and continued through the Sugar Bowl win and Pac 12 membership.

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

@Mormon Ute

Both would benefit from better recruiting but what I take from this is that joining a so called "power 5" conference doesnt give a lasting recruiting upsurge, it has to be combined with actually performing in that conference which utah hasnt done, and the recruiting has steadily dropped with the drop in wins.

I have made the point many times that utah was getting a "honeymoon" period from their fans and recruits but that it would not sustain itself unless utah could be at the top of the pac12 rather than the bottom. Well they have sunk closer to the bottom each season and the recruiting ranking has dropped each season and there is unrest in the fanbase. whittingham was once a saint to utah "fans", he is now being vilified by many of them, second guessed, and flat out having his job called for. Deservedly so IMO.

Instate and LDS recruits were initially enamored with the pac12 affiliation but that has more than worn off for many of them. Non "power" BYU still gets most of the top LDS and enough of the top instate. With a power 5 membership BYU might get ALL of them.

Mormon Ute
Kaysville, UT

Duckhunter,

I think BYU would have the same experience Utah and TCU have had. You refer to it as a 'honeymoon'. They would initially benefit in recruiting just from the membership in the conference, but after struggling for a few seasons would then see a drop off. There is no way BYU would have any better success in it's first few years than the other two top MWC teams have had in making the transition.

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

@Mormon Ute

Maybe, maybe not as far as BYU having more success than those two but BYU has some advantages neither of them have. Like it or not BYU is a bigger name than either and has had far more success over a much longer period of time. Both utah and tcu are fairly new at even being decent teams and have no real legacies like BYU has. Nor does either have the built in advantage of having the church affiliation BYU has which automatically gives it a fair number of good recruits. I know those facts infuriate utah fans but they are facts. No BYU is not notre dame but they are much more accomplished than those two.

If BYU were to ever join one of those conferences it would certainly offset the one major reason LDS recruits, and a lot of instate kids, have for wanting to go to utah. I've stated before that affiliation is the ONLY advantage utah has over BYU unless the recruit is not a kid that wants to live BYU standards. Maybe short term BYU would be no better but long term they almost certainly would, to many advantages over those two.

Mormon Ute
Kaysville, UT

Duckhunter,

I'll give you the bigger national audience and church affiliation advantages, but as far as legacy the U has closed the gap considerably having been the first BCS busting team and the first to do it twice. That had a lot to do with the Pac 12 invite. Utah has also been very competitive with BYU, since Ron McBride was the coach. That's been over 20 years now and has included a lot of bowl games, conference titles and wins over BYU. The U doesn't have to concede much of anything to BYU anymore. Most of BYU's wins today come against the same kind of teams the U was beating before joining the Pac 12. I know your blue goggles don't let you see the good things going on at the U, but from my standpoint the only thing BYU has over the U is the Honor Code. If a kid wants that, he's going to have to go to BYU. Harvey Langi is proof of that. The Honor Code is the only reason he gave in his own statement to Vai for wanting to transfer.

Duckhunter
Highland, UT

@mormon ute

What you "see" from your standpoint really doesn't matter, it is what recruits see. No utah does not have a legacy, those ar ebuilt over decades not over a couple of good years during one decade. It simply is not the same and it is your crimson goggles that keep you from realizing it.

That said utah will never match BYU in the things that make a legacy, i.e. national fanbase, heisman, doak walker, davy o'brien, a NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP, hall of famers, All Americans, national rankings, etc.

The fact is those are the things that make a legacy and while I am not claiming BYU's legacy is the equivalent of USC's or Aabama's it certainly matches up well with all but the very few elite schools in the country and no utah will never match it, if you think they will get all of those accolades then I think maybe you need to take those goggles off.

Where a program is on any one year, or even over a 4 year span, does not equate to what has been established over several decades. It just doesn't. Sorry.

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