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Comments about ‘Reader Voices: An argument for the existence of God’

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Published: Tuesday, July 8 2014 11:05 a.m. MDT

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RedWings
CLEARFIELD, UT

Before all the "intelligent" posters come on this page and prove to us once and for all that God does not exist, let me say that there will never be irrefutable proof one way or the other.

Faith is needed to believe in and trust God. Those who refuse to have faith, or want to live selfishly and not conform to the rigors of a life of service and sacrifice to others, will always throw around arguments against God. For them, is is easier to alter Truth or God than to change themselves.

Atheists are like the three year old throwing a temper tantrum in the store. They want what they can't have, so they make a scene to embarass the parent into giving in.

Darrel
Eagle Mountain, UT

For me the question has always been, if there is no "soul" or "spirit" what separates me from you? What makes my pile of carbon atoms, which are 99.9999% identical to yours different?

Why is it that when the carbon atoms in my brain stop firing synapses it cannot be restarted? Almost nothing has changed chemically from them being active to inactive. They are still the same atoms.

If the difference is solely DNA, why are identical twins different people?

JoCo Ute
Grants Pass, OR

"Popular belief. . .tells us that everything just came into existence". What popular belief? This popular belief exists only in the minds of uneducated people who don't understand the scientific method.

Scientific evidence clearly shows that the Universe started with what is called the "Big Bang" and that evidence is overwhelming. The Universe (300 billion stars in the Milky Way and 200 billion galaxies in the Universe) is expanding and at an increasing rate. Scientific evidence speaks only to way the universe works and not whether there is a God or if God started and controls the process.

There is nothing in the scientific evidence that claims God is not behind this incredibly complex and beautiful process. In fact, as more details of how the Universe (and quite possibly the Multi-Verse) works the incredible complexity seems to show that there must be a God.

Trying to sell science as anti-God makes for good politics, but has nothing to do with the truth.

Hutterite
American Fork, UT

I can't prove gods' existence one way or the other. I can only claim what I can know and prove, and anything extraordinary to that should require extraordinary proof.
One thing's for sure; claiming proof of god does not in any way begin to prove it's 'your' god. All that work is still ahead of you, and those claims are going to take some serious evidence to support.

Baccus0902
Leesburg, VA

The idea that God does not exist is not a new one.

Psalm 53 is an example of that "To the Overseer. -- `On a disease.' -- An instruction, by David. A fool said in his heart, `There is no God.' They have done corruptly, Yea, they have done abominable iniquity, There is none doing good."

I don't know of anyone who thinks that people who believe in God are ignorant. However, I know a lot of people who claim to believe in God and act based on their ignorance.

The existence of a super Intelligence that controls the universe, life after life, should be matters of scientific investigation. However, those type of subjects have been left to the philosophers, theologians and the masses to explain.

Unfortunately many "believers" lack an open mind and measure their "religious fervor" in how intransigent they are in their dogmas. e.g. Same Sex Marriage as against the laws of God and establishing laws against it.

If most vocal religious people are perceived against "common Sense", they will be accused of being ignorant.

When I encounter a person who claim to know the truth, I cannot avoid shuddering and pray for wisdom, patience and love.

The Wraith
Kaysville, UT

Redwings you live in a very strange world I must say. In your world it seems the only humble kind people who work to serve others believe in god and everyone who doesn't believe in god is a petulant evil person with no desire to serve their fellow man. I honestly wonder how you can believe such an obvious lie.

Plenty of people who have sincere beliefs in god have been horrible people. I know many fellow atheists who volunteer their time and efforts to helping and serving those in need.

I'm not going to bother trying to prove the existence or non existence of god. Others far more capable than I have had that argument. But it's time you got off your high horse and realized that atheists aren't the little three your old children whining in the story that you think they are. I am an atheist because it is the world view that makes the most logical sense for me. I also give to others, serve and work to improve the lives of people less fortunate than me as are the majority of atheists.

JD Jones
Salt Lake City, UT

It's problematic to compare the apparent design of natural objects to the deliberate creation of art or technology. The writer is borrowing from Walter Paley's argument from design. Charles Darwin's The Origin of Species below Paley's argument design out of the water and yet we still have people insisting that natural objects can't possibility exist without a supernatural creator. Darwin and future Biologists have been able to evidence for natural selection. No one has provided any evidence of a creator God. Big difference.

By the way, I can't think of a good particle physicist who says that the universe was created by pure chance, neither has a good biologist said that evolution operates by chance.

george of the jungle
goshen, UT

I found that there is more than sex and some one to be with. You mater, The spirit of things, God makes every thing real when there is gratitude.

JD Jones
Salt Lake City, UT

@Red Wings, I find it interesting that you equate a disbelief in God with living selfishly. You say they are incapable of living a life of service and sacrifice to others. What makes you assume that atheists are incapable of changing themselves for the better. I know atheists who are just as devoted to serving others as Mormons and other religious people, and they do so without any expectation of receiving a reward in an afterlife.

The reasons you mentioned for most atheists choosing not to believe in God are false. We don't believe in God because there is no evidence to back up the claim. It's that simple. I simply reject claims lacking sufficient evidence, and the God claim is simply one of many claims I reject. I'm not sure what you mean by "They want what they can't have", so you will have to explain.

MarkMAN
West Columbia, TX

Red Wings,

Faith can be changed into knowledge. This knowledge is only found by and through first faith.

Mark

jeanie
orem, UT

A great read on the topic of religion and God is the book The Everlasting Man by G. K. Chesterton. This book and the Bible were the ones that swayed C. S. Lewis from atheism to Christianity.

RedWings
CLEARFIELD, UT

Christ said to "Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me". This command negates a life of self-interest or selfishness. True disciples of Christ through the centuries have done just this. He aske no less of us today.

To me, refusing to believe without proof is a form of selfishness. Belief in God must be based on faith, as there will not be tangible proof offered in this life. Some would refuse to believe in God if he spoke to them face to face.

I am sure there are atheists who give of the time and money in service to others. That is great. My point is that most I know who leave religion and deny God do it because they want to live a lifestyle that is not in harmony with God's commandments. Again, that is a decision based on selfishness.

Seeker of Truth
Kaysville, UT

@JD Jones

It seems that you are arguing that the principle of natural selection is somehow not compatible with the existence of a creator. Could not the creator use the principle of natural selection in the creation process(a process that is still ongoing)? Also, the principle of natural selection by itself cannot completely explain how extremely complex natural systems (such as animal life) came into being. The law of entropy indicates things naturally tend towards chaos, not towards higher levels of organization and complexity.

Baccus0902
Leesburg, VA

@ RedWings
You wrote:" My point is that most I know who leave religion and deny God do it because they want to live a lifestyle that is not in harmony with God's commandments. Again, that is a decision based on selfishness."

Quick to judgment, my friend.
Have you thought about the possibility that what you take as God's doctrine for somebody else is just Man's doctrine?

The glory of God is intelligent! How can you deny the glory of God and follow principles that are not sound or coherent to your inteliggence?

Tyler D
Meridian, ID

@ RedWings – “For them, is is easier to alter Truth or God than to change themselves.”

Or, they simply follow the evidence as the best approximation of truth and arrive at the conclusion that all the gods of antiquity (including God of Abraham) are man-made fictions created at a time when we knew next to nothing about how the natural world worked and a god seemed like a plausible explanation. Not to mention those claiming access to the mind/will of the gods gained tremendous influence in the tribe.

Actually I think the fine tuning argument is fairly compelling (not conclusive) that an intelligence was behind the Big Bang.

What I do not find compelling is that this intelligence takes a personal interest in me, what I eat, wear, pray to, or who (and how) I sleep with.

And your claim about atheists/agnostics wanting to live selfish (immoral?) lives does not begin to explain the relatively happy and generous countries around the world made up of mostly non-believers – Norway, Canada, Denmark, Sweden, Japan, Australia, Germany, New Zealand, and a growing number of Americans.

skeptic
Phoenix, AZ

It is surprising how some well educated people can not distinguish the difference between inorganic manufactured creations (statues, watches, etc.) and organic evolution and growth (life, humans,flowers, etc.).

Seeker of Truth
Kaysville, UT

@skeptic

I don't follow your logic. I'm not sure why being biological organisms instead of inorganic manufactured creations somehow makes their existence less significant as evidence. This seems to make them a stronger evidence, not less, since biological organisms are infinately more complicated than any inorganic manufactured creation. As I said in a different comment, the law of entropy indicates that things tend towards chaos, not towards complexity. Something is driving organic creatures towards greater complexity and natural selection cannot completely account for that force.

donn
layton, UT

RE: Moral arguments for God's existence. They are interesting because evaluating their soundness requires attention to practically every important philosophical issue dealt with in metaethics.

They are important because of their prominence in popular apologetic arguments for religious belief. Evidence for this can be found in C. S. Lewis's Mere Christianity (1952) Which begins with a moral argument for God's existence. Many ordinary people regard religion as in some way providing a basis or foundation for morality. This fact might seem to favor religious arguments for morality rather than moral arguments for religious belief, but if someone believes that morality is in some way “objective” or “real,” and that this moral reality requires explanation, moral arguments for God's reality naturally suggest themselves.

The apparent connection between morality and religion appears to many people to support the claim that moral truths require a religious foundation, or can best be explained by God's existence.

“being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: (Eph 4:18)

Karen R.
Houston, TX

Religion is certainly man-made. Whether or not there is a supernatural being behind the universe...I see no evidence myself. I do see people doing exactly what I used to do: Listening to themselves and believing this was a god speaking to them.

As for using the design argument to prove a god's existence, plenty of people have found a way to both accept evolution and maintain their god beliefs. Evolution is a deal breaker only for the religious that have boxed themselves into a literal reading of an obviously flawed piece of human literature. Besides, if your god is so great, why would it be threatened by a little human knowledge? Sounds like an awfully insecure being to me.

KTC John
Wetumpka, AL

Alma 30:44:"But Alma said unto him: Thou hast had [scientific evidence] enough; will ye tempt your God? Will ye say, Show unto me [scientific evidence], when ye have the testimony of ... all the holy prophets? The scriptures are laid before thee, yea, and all things denote there is a God; yea, even the earth, and all things that are upon the face of it, yea, and its motion, yea, and also all the planets which move in their regular form do witness that there is a Supreme Creator."

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