To "Patrick Henry" but what are "fair" wages?See
Matthew 20:1-16 and the parable of the laborers. Those that worked all day got
the same as those who came later. Is that "fair"? Jesus didn't
care what wages a person was paid, only that employers were honest with their
employees and that employees were honest with their employer.Please
define what is "fair". A pre-school child will tell you one thing, and
an adult will tell you something else. Search the term "That's not
Fair" and read the parenting articles that come up. When children complain
about the "fairness" of something, they are not wanting equality, they
are looking to get something that somebody else has. Most of us would call that
greed. You, may have a different idea, and that is why I want you to define
what "fair" is.When you define "fair", please do so
in a way that is quantifiable. Otherwise it is meaningless.
@ Redshirt,God cares about fair wages as well. James 5:4
Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields,
which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have
reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.1 Timothy
5:18For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that
treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.Deuteronomy 24:12Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is
poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in
thy land within thy gates:Any job worth doing, is a job worth paying
someone a living wage. Throw out supply and demand with regards to wages and
throw in some decency and love for your fellow man.....and then pay him/her a
living wage. I seriously think God is not pleased with the extreme inequality
that exists in this nation and in this world as a result of greed.
@Redshirt. Everybody in this country typically gets free stuff or gets a vast
amount of return relative to what they pay in taxes. The problem is people
either don't like to admit it or are in complete denial. My
main point is their are a lot of people who hide behind Christianity but they
are just using a disguise of Christianity to further their own political and
To "Shaun" you get some things right, but you are wrong about a lot.A Christian nation does not need the government to tell them to help
their neighbors. It is an idle nation that has lost its faith in God that needs
laws and government to force them to help families.When you get
government involved in "helping" everybody, you end up with Venezuela
where you have riots as people try to buy toilet paper or end up with the USSR
where everybody is "helped", but you have destroyed the human spirit.
Government "help" destroys more than it does good. Just look at the
plight of the black families. 60 years ago more than half of their familes had
a mother and a father. Now, less than 25% have a married mother and father.Is it really help if you are just giving them "stuff"?
Isn't real help giving an opportunity to impove your situation?
Interesting argument about the minimum wage shouldn't be the same
everywhere. It isn't. Seattle has raised its minimum wage to meet those
challenges. It will be interesting to see if this "destroys"
Seattle's economy.Also, I would agree that our current economic
state requiring both spouses to work, and sometimes both to work multiple jobs
is much more of a threat to destroy family life than same-sex marriage.
@redshirt. A country that doesn't look after it's most needy and
vulnerable citizens is not following God. I am amused at people who claim to be
Christian but hate laws that help families, like FMLA. I will admit
there policies that the left advocate that may not be Christian but at least
they do not claim to being doing Gods work under false pretenses.
To "LDS Liberal" actually, you are wrong. Lucifer is rejoicing that
people like you are so willing to give up their free will to politicians that
are easily purchased with gold and power.If you look at the history
of minimum wages, it is nothing more than governent control and bigotry. Tools
of Satan.God cares about SSM, and does not approve of it, that is
why the Prophets of the LDS church have spoken out against it. Satan knows that
he can legitimize homosexual behavior more by raising kids in an enviroment
where it is accepted. He also knows that those children will also grow up
without faith in God.Satan knows that he has the
liberals/progressives believing they are doing God's work, when in fact
they are working for him. Satan has taught them that they can destroy agency,
as long as they claim to be helping others.
@Mike RichardsCan you cite an instance where an increase in minimum
wage hurt the economy? Led to a decrease in GDP, and increase in unemployment
or inflation (generally it's one or the other that increase).On
the flip side, banks have caused both of our biggest economic downfalls.
Let's look at what has been posted. L White posted that 99% of businesses
are owned by small business owners. Someone else twisted that to say that 99%
of all employees worked at a small business. That statement was false. Small businesses are the backbone of American business. Obama refuses
to accept that fact. He thinks that a stroke of his pen changes actuality. He
is wrong. Those who misquote comments are also wrong, but readers can easily
see their "error".When costs go up, prices go up. Unless
you (claim) to work for the government, you understand that concept. Just ask
all those who worked for the Deseret News and the Tribune who had to be "let
go" in order to "save" the newspapersRaising coat will
destroy jobs. Open any history book and see for yourself.
One problem with a Federally mandated NATIONAL minimum wage is... the same
number doesn't work everywhere. The minimum it takes to live in Manhattan
is not required in rural Mississippi, or the number it takes to live in SLC vs a
little town in Utah.The other problem is... how does some guy in
Government know if a worker is worth that much to his employer?So a
guy who's just starting a small business (say a taco stand) decides he
would like some help mowing the lawn or doing the dishes, so he would like to
hire the high school dropout that hangs out on his corner with a "WILL WORK
FOR FOOD" sign to do some extra simple stuff, but if he has to pay him more
than he gets paid himself (because of Government labor laws)... he decides not
to hire him...Is the guy on the corner BETTER OFF... or WORSE
OFF...?=======Obama keeps telling businessmen to hire
more people. And then he increases their insurance overhead, wages, taxes, etc
(which naturally means they will hire LESS people)...
A Story - by LDS LiberalLucifer: If we can push America wages down
far enough, Men and Women - Fathers AND Mothers will both be required to lave
the home and work to provide for food, clothing and shelter for their familes -
thus destroying the FAMILY.Who cares about Same Sex Marriages, when
Families can be destroyed faster, more completely and far esiler by not having
ANY parent in the home? And those being effected most will be distracted and
loose focus from my REAL plan.Children with no parental supervision
are 4 times as likely to do drugs, have pre-marital sex, run away from home,
drop-out of school, and heterosexual couples are 2 times as likely to
divorce.Master Mahon: Excellent Plan my Master -- I'll have my
servants in the Republican Party do it for us. HaHaHa, Many of them even call
themselves Latter-Day Saints....to be continued...
To "LDS Liberal" not those lies again.China does have a
minimum wage that is set regionally. See "China increase minimum wage
rates" at CBS.They do have labor unions too. Here are some of
the names of the Chinese labor unions:All-China Federation of
Railway Workers' UnionsNational Committee of the Chinese
Agricultural, Forestry and Water Conservancy Workers' UnionNational
Committee of the Chinese Aviation Workers' UnionNational Committee of
the Chinese Banking Workers' UnionNational Committee of the Chinese
Defense Industry, Postal and Telecommunications Workers' UnionNational Committee of the Chinese Educational, Scientific, Cultural, Medical
and Sports Workers' UnionNational Committee of the Chinese Energy and
Chemical Workers' UnionNational Committee of the Chinese Financial,
Commercial, Light Industry, Textile and Tobacco Workers' UnionNational Committee of the Chinese Machinery, Metallurgical and Building
Material Workers' UnionNational Committee of the Chinese Seamen and
Construction Workers' UnionWhat you fail to see is that China
is a Union run nation.
To "airnaut" but the burger flipper is just 1 person in the chain. You
have the burger flipper, the person at the counter taking your money, there are
the guys at the wearhouse that stored the patties, buns, and other components,
there is are the guys who processed the meat, the guys that fed the cattle, the
people that worked on the farm to raise the feed for the cattle, etc....You see, raising the wages for one group of workers will have ripple
effects throughout the workforce. But the big question is why? Minimum wage
job represent roughly 1.9 million jobs, out of 150 million. Plus, raising the
minimum wage will kill 1/3 of the minimum wage jobs.Why do you want
to make more people unemployed so that a few can earn more?You do
realize that those companies that you list have few minimum wage jobs, and what
jobs they have paying minimum wage are more than likely to be janitorial
jobs.Did you also know that Seattle has a very high teenage
unemployment problem? How do you expect to train the workers of tomorrow if
there are not jobs for them today?
Henry Ford decided he was going to increase his employee's pay well enough
that they could afford to buy one of his cars. It worked out very well for
both sides. Numerous studies show that paying a livable wage only
increases the cost of products a couple of cents. This is all about greed,
the wealthy hoarding more and more money while the majority can barely scrape
Processes and task are going to be automated regardless of what happens to
minimum wage. Mcdonalds wouldn't hire more workers if minimum wage was 50
cents an hour. They would just make more money.
The whole supply and demand model is based on the assumption that neither side
of a market has "market power," that is the ability to force a price.
In the case of fast food labor one side has no market power - labor. But the
purchasers of fast food labor, e.g. McDonalds, Burger King, KFC, etc have market
power collectively because they collude, using the same labor price model in
cooperation with each other. There's no "fair market wage" here.
Point 1, historically there has never been an inflationary spiral when the
minimum wage was raised, contrariety every time it has stimulated the economy
because those effected spent almost all of their income on survival. Point 2,
Mike Richards, while the concepts you espouse are good in theory they are
fiction. Free markets and fair market value were gobbled up many generations
@L WhiteSpringville, UT8:16 a.m. June 30, 2014---
My, my, my...Here we have a retired person living off of
government Social Security and Medicare lecturing a former fast-food employee,
now Veteran and Aerospace Engineer for 30 years working for 50% market value to
keep her speech free being lectured by someone who's never even worked.BTW -- you "hubby" needs to get his facts straight. Small
business only account for ~50% of all jobs [not his bogus 99%] .BTW
-- most of the stuff you are buying is made by, supporting, and financing
Communist Red China -- so please doesn't lecture me, I'm fighting
Communists and Communist supporters.======== Mike
RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahThe whole concept of "minimum
wage" is ridiculous.[Communist Red China doesn't have a
minimum wage or labor Unions. So much for you fight against Communism.]
Re: Mike Richards "The whole concept of "minimum wage" is
ridiculous. No worker should expect to be paid more than fair market value for
his services,..."By "fair market value" I assume you
mean the wage coming out of a competitive labor market. But fast food, to pick
an example, is more like oligopoly both as to product pricing and labor
You have to increase production in order to increase minimum wage. With all the
jobs that are outsourced in this country, I don't think that is a
@ 2 bitsI think we should get rid of all min wage laws, get rid of
all welfare, SS, and Medicare, and give all tax cuts to the rich. Once we
deregulate Wall Street even further we'll have an amazing economy. As long
as we follow the Somalian model, we'll be a power house economically. Give
the rich more of the workers' hard earned money and by magic the economy
will grow!It makes sense if you don't think about it.There, Can I pass for a repub now?
Let me add two points to my cryptic baloney.1) We've been
having this a minimum wage will destroy the economy discussion for decades now
and we still have thriving hamburger companies, car washes, and every other
enterprise effected by the minimum wage. Details have changed, and the
specifics of the economy are different but the macro picture is very much the
same in terms of services. 2) There is only one population in this
economy that creates and maintains log lasting, career oriented, life supporting
jobs. Guess what, it's not entrepreneurs, it's not CEO's, and
it's not rich investors. It's customers.Customers are the
only population that can maintain a sustainable economy, and if the customers
don't have the money to purchase all the tax cuts for the wealthy, all the
tax breaks and incentives for corporations will do nothing to maintain a healthy
economy.So shout your moral platitudes from the roof tops and
continue to preach your unverified predictions about the unwise minimum wage as
you shoot yourself in the foot.
Yeah, the business model of 1970 is the same as the business model of 2015, and
the demographics and economics are the same also.Wow somebody's
been to Seattle,....what do you want an award? Bet you went just to eat at and
patronize all the minimum wage job establishments? Works so well! Seattle is a gorgeous city and surroundings, but that is all they really have
to offer. I would personally drive 4 times the distance farther and take the $7
an hour (industrious) mindset over the $15 and hour (entitlement) mindset ANY
I think we should raise ALL wages (not just the minimum).And we
should pay women TWICE as much as we pay men!And let anybody who
wants to come to this country enter and take jobs without even registering at
the border.There... now can I get on a high-horse like a
Grover, that is one GREAT idea! But I'll bet no one would take you up on
it. They know they'd lose.
Ya -- crummy Seattle, You know -- BoeingMicroSoftNintendo, AmericaEddie BauerAmazonStarbucksREICostCoT-MobileWeyerhaeuserZillowall those
ccrummy minimumm wage paying jobs...I suppose $15 an hour is
outrageous in $7 an hour Utah.But,Don't expect to be a
World Leader in anything when you're payng pauper's wages.
When I see CEO salaries as high as they are... And how the Mcdonalds CEO just
tripled his own salary because he could... I struggle to see how any of these
arguments against raising the wage make any sense.Sorry repubs,
I'm just not buying it.The kool-aid of, "We must give the
rich all the benefits or else" nonsense has worn off. Did we
learn nothing from the 2000-08 disaster?
Are you saying tourists will scratch Washington State off their list of places
to visit because they'll have to budget a little more for food?Or that tourists won't eat?
Good ol' Utah values place families first...Just not the means
to provide for that family on anything less than a 2 incomes.
Same old tired arguments that have been disproved time and time again.
I just spent a beautiful week in glorious Seattle, a city that works well.
I'm not staying away. I like the idea that the people who serve me in
Seattle are getting a little better deal than they do in good ol' Utah.
My, my, my. We have the undercover newspaper employee who uses several alias
and tells us that he works for the government giving us advice on economics. My
hubby had a real laugh about that. My hubby knows just a little about real
world ecomonics because that's the way he's fed our family.He simply said that if those people who think that raising the minimum wage
does no harm were paying more to everyone without getting a raise themselves
that they could learn something about what raising the minimum wage does. He
said that almost everyone that serves the public is paid minimum wage, not just
the people who work for McDonalds. He told me that small businesses represent
more than 99% of all employers and that almost 70% of small businesses have five
employees or less. Then he said that those businesses will either have to raise
the price of their products or fire one or more employees. Then he said that
anyone can look that stuff up on the Internet.
HaHaHaHaOthello, WAActually I'm pretty sure prices won't
double. ====== That was about the only thing you got
right.I worked Fast Food for 4 years going through college
[1970's].We made $1.90 an hour [minimum wageat the time].Usually had 4 on staff.Our sales were up to $1,000 an hour.[less than >1% -- 0.7%]Labor costs are a moot point.FYI -- the owner we worked for [who dropped in once in awhile] was a
We have a perfect case here for a social experiment. Seattle is one of the top
tourist spots in America and they (whoever "they" are) have raised the
bar for entry level workers so that they just might be able to live in the same
town in which they work. Several comments indicate that the market will rebel
and that Seattle will pay the price in (to coin a phrase): "Jobs. Jobs.
Jobs." We need the mayor of Seattle to make a bet with say ...John Boehner!
Seattle puts up a Venti size Starbucks coffee vs. a bottle of "whine"
from the Speaker. At the end of a year, the bet will be settled. If Seattle
tourism drops even an inch, Seattle pays. If not, Boehner and all of the
doomsters posting here give up their ridiculous claim that raising the minimum
wage will cause calamity.
Tourists don't really matter as they aren't coming from anywhere since
their own minimum wage jobs don't provide them with enough extra money to
take vacations to Utah.
Actually I'm pretty sure prices won't double. Employers will find ways
to become more efficient. More mechanization, longer wait times for customers
during busy periods, less workers hired. Whatever it takes.
Nice try, but hamburger price isn't going to increase only 7%. If you use
your 7$ versus $15 example, then the cost of labor is going to more then double,
no matter what. Not including additional payroll taxes. The worker isn't
going to become more efficient. He isn't going to spend any less time
standing around picking his nose, and yes sometimes he can even cook 2 or 3
burgers at a time, so factor all that out. Same hours, same amount of
production, more the twice the cost = hamburger price doubling.
Why not bring back indentured servitude.. The minimum wage does not work.
People are not hired because it is too expensive for Corporate America to hire
them. So, just make them indentured servants. Is this a right wing solution,
because we are bumping perilously close to this solution.The minimum
wage does not cause unemployment. This has been demonstrated by research. To
avoid any disruptions, and give employers a chance to vent their spleen, it is
usually fazed in over a period of time. The Jeremiads who claim the sky is
falling are lying to us.
Is minimum wage expected to be a "living wage" or is it the wage that
people with little or no experience should expect to receive when they enter the
labor market? People who expect others to overpay them will expect government
to pay for their housing, their food and their medical bills. They don't
understand (or care) that "government" has no money until it takes that
money from their neighbors. In effect, they expect their neighbor to pay them
for doing as little as possible to care for themselves. The whole
concept of "minimum wage" is ridiculous. No worker should expect to be
paid more than fair market value for his services, just as he expects to pay no
more that fair marker value for the products that he buys. When minimum wage
goes up, the fair market value of the goods that minimum wage workers need the
most also goes up - because it costs more to produce those goods. People will spend their very limited vacation dollars elsewhere.
It looks like someone has a recurring beef with minimum wage.and Eric Gree
rights into the Deseret News regularly about it.-------- April 7, 2013To those who think the minimum wage should be
increased, I respect your opinions ("Raise minimum wage," April 3).
However, I disagree and believe that it should not be increased. It starts the
growing problem known as inflation. If one thing is increased, like minimum
wage, then everything else will inflate in price to be able to match it. Food,
housing, fuel, transportation and a whole host of everything will become more
expensive, and no amount of increase to minimum wage will stop that. Yes, people
can barely get by on the current limit, but that is set up to help us learn how
to conserve and be content with what is needed.Eric GreenBountiful
Let's do some 3rd grade math....Say, a hamburger costs $3, and a fast food worker can make it in under 2 minutes.$15 an hour
= .25 cents / minute.$7 an hour = .12 cents / minute.So -
labor cost is .50 cents vs. .25 cents.Therefore, The ACTUAL
cost of the hamburger increased by .25 cents, or about 7%Hardly
"The Sky is Falling" shill the letter writer is predicting will
happen.BTW -- tourists visiting Seattle are not the
run-of-the-mill cheapscapes.This is not even be a blip on the
And BTW, these wage reforms were enacted by REAL socialists, not liberals whom
many Deseret News are wont to call socialists. Note that real socialists make a
I assume the writer refers to the $15.00 minimum wage in Seattle. The only
pertinent question is: is this a living wage for Seattle? Also,
how is this action illustrative of anarchy? Because the new minimum was enacted
by socialists? The socialists involved did not throw Molotov cocktails or
bombs. Everything they did was according to the laws of Seattle and Washington