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Letter: Raising wages

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  • Redshirt1701 Deep Space 9, Ut
    July 3, 2014 10:01 a.m.

    To "Patrick Henry" but what are "fair" wages?

    See Matthew 20:1-16 and the parable of the laborers. Those that worked all day got the same as those who came later. Is that "fair"? Jesus didn't care what wages a person was paid, only that employers were honest with their employees and that employees were honest with their employer.

    Please define what is "fair". A pre-school child will tell you one thing, and an adult will tell you something else. Search the term "That's not Fair" and read the parenting articles that come up. When children complain about the "fairness" of something, they are not wanting equality, they are looking to get something that somebody else has. Most of us would call that greed. You, may have a different idea, and that is why I want you to define what "fair" is.

    When you define "fair", please do so in a way that is quantifiable. Otherwise it is meaningless.

  • Patrick Henry West Jordan, UT
    July 2, 2014 9:41 p.m.

    @ Redshirt,

    God cares about fair wages as well.

    James 5:4

    Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.

    1 Timothy 5:18

    For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

    Deuteronomy 24:12

    Thou shalt not oppress an hired servant that is poor and needy, whether he be of thy brethren, or of thy strangers that are in thy land within thy gates:

    Any job worth doing, is a job worth paying someone a living wage. Throw out supply and demand with regards to wages and throw in some decency and love for your fellow man.....and then pay him/her a living wage. I seriously think God is not pleased with the extreme inequality that exists in this nation and in this world as a result of greed.

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    July 1, 2014 11:42 a.m.

    @Redshirt. Everybody in this country typically gets free stuff or gets a vast amount of return relative to what they pay in taxes. The problem is people either don't like to admit it or are in complete denial.

    My main point is their are a lot of people who hide behind Christianity but they are just using a disguise of Christianity to further their own political and business interest.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    July 1, 2014 9:16 a.m.

    To "Shaun" you get some things right, but you are wrong about a lot.

    A Christian nation does not need the government to tell them to help their neighbors. It is an idle nation that has lost its faith in God that needs laws and government to force them to help families.

    When you get government involved in "helping" everybody, you end up with Venezuela where you have riots as people try to buy toilet paper or end up with the USSR where everybody is "helped", but you have destroyed the human spirit. Government "help" destroys more than it does good. Just look at the plight of the black families. 60 years ago more than half of their familes had a mother and a father. Now, less than 25% have a married mother and father.

    Is it really help if you are just giving them "stuff"? Isn't real help giving an opportunity to impove your situation?

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    June 30, 2014 11:36 p.m.

    Interesting argument about the minimum wage shouldn't be the same everywhere. It isn't. Seattle has raised its minimum wage to meet those challenges. It will be interesting to see if this "destroys" Seattle's economy.

    Also, I would agree that our current economic state requiring both spouses to work, and sometimes both to work multiple jobs is much more of a threat to destroy family life than same-sex marriage.

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    June 30, 2014 9:06 p.m.

    @redshirt. A country that doesn't look after it's most needy and vulnerable citizens is not following God. I am amused at people who claim to be Christian but hate laws that help families, like FMLA.

    I will admit there policies that the left advocate that may not be Christian but at least they do not claim to being doing Gods work under false pretenses.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    June 30, 2014 2:50 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" actually, you are wrong. Lucifer is rejoicing that people like you are so willing to give up their free will to politicians that are easily purchased with gold and power.

    If you look at the history of minimum wages, it is nothing more than governent control and bigotry. Tools of Satan.

    God cares about SSM, and does not approve of it, that is why the Prophets of the LDS church have spoken out against it. Satan knows that he can legitimize homosexual behavior more by raising kids in an enviroment where it is accepted. He also knows that those children will also grow up without faith in God.

    Satan knows that he has the liberals/progressives believing they are doing God's work, when in fact they are working for him. Satan has taught them that they can destroy agency, as long as they claim to be helping others.

  • Darrel Eagle Mountain, UT
    June 30, 2014 2:13 p.m.

    @Mike Richards

    Can you cite an instance where an increase in minimum wage hurt the economy? Led to a decrease in GDP, and increase in unemployment or inflation (generally it's one or the other that increase).

    On the flip side, banks have caused both of our biggest economic downfalls.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    June 30, 2014 1:49 p.m.

    Let's look at what has been posted. L White posted that 99% of businesses are owned by small business owners. Someone else twisted that to say that 99% of all employees worked at a small business. That statement was false.

    Small businesses are the backbone of American business. Obama refuses to accept that fact. He thinks that a stroke of his pen changes actuality. He is wrong. Those who misquote comments are also wrong, but readers can easily see their "error".

    When costs go up, prices go up. Unless you (claim) to work for the government, you understand that concept. Just ask all those who worked for the Deseret News and the Tribune who had to be "let go" in order to "save" the newspapers

    Raising coat will destroy jobs. Open any history book and see for yourself.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 30, 2014 1:06 p.m.

    One problem with a Federally mandated NATIONAL minimum wage is... the same number doesn't work everywhere. The minimum it takes to live in Manhattan is not required in rural Mississippi, or the number it takes to live in SLC vs a little town in Utah.

    The other problem is... how does some guy in Government know if a worker is worth that much to his employer?

    So a guy who's just starting a small business (say a taco stand) decides he would like some help mowing the lawn or doing the dishes, so he would like to hire the high school dropout that hangs out on his corner with a "WILL WORK FOR FOOD" sign to do some extra simple stuff, but if he has to pay him more than he gets paid himself (because of Government labor laws)... he decides not to hire him...

    Is the guy on the corner BETTER OFF... or WORSE OFF...?

    =======

    Obama keeps telling businessmen to hire more people. And then he increases their insurance overhead, wages, taxes, etc (which naturally means they will hire LESS people)...

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    June 30, 2014 12:55 p.m.

    A Story - by LDS Liberal

    Lucifer: If we can push America wages down far enough, Men and Women - Fathers AND Mothers will both be required to lave the home and work to provide for food, clothing and shelter for their familes - thus destroying the FAMILY.

    Who cares about Same Sex Marriages, when Families can be destroyed faster, more completely and far esiler by not having ANY parent in the home? And those being effected most will be distracted and loose focus from my REAL plan.

    Children with no parental supervision are 4 times as likely to do drugs, have pre-marital sex, run away from home, drop-out of school,
    and heterosexual couples are 2 times as likely to divorce.

    Master Mahon: Excellent Plan my Master -- I'll have my servants in the Republican Party do it for us. HaHaHa, Many of them even call themselves Latter-Day Saints.

    ...to be continued...

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    June 30, 2014 12:53 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" not those lies again.

    China does have a minimum wage that is set regionally. See "China increase minimum wage rates" at CBS.

    They do have labor unions too. Here are some of the names of the Chinese labor unions:

    All-China Federation of Railway Workers' Unions
    National Committee of the Chinese Agricultural, Forestry and Water Conservancy Workers' Union
    National Committee of the Chinese Aviation Workers' Union
    National Committee of the Chinese Banking Workers' Union
    National Committee of the Chinese Defense Industry, Postal and Telecommunications Workers' Union
    National Committee of the Chinese Educational, Scientific, Cultural, Medical and Sports Workers' Union
    National Committee of the Chinese Energy and Chemical Workers' Union
    National Committee of the Chinese Financial, Commercial, Light Industry, Textile and Tobacco Workers' Union
    National Committee of the Chinese Machinery, Metallurgical and Building Material Workers' Union
    National Committee of the Chinese Seamen and Construction Workers' Union

    What you fail to see is that China is a Union run nation.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    June 30, 2014 12:48 p.m.

    To "airnaut" but the burger flipper is just 1 person in the chain. You have the burger flipper, the person at the counter taking your money, there are the guys at the wearhouse that stored the patties, buns, and other components, there is are the guys who processed the meat, the guys that fed the cattle, the people that worked on the farm to raise the feed for the cattle, etc....

    You see, raising the wages for one group of workers will have ripple effects throughout the workforce. But the big question is why? Minimum wage job represent roughly 1.9 million jobs, out of 150 million. Plus, raising the minimum wage will kill 1/3 of the minimum wage jobs.

    Why do you want to make more people unemployed so that a few can earn more?

    You do realize that those companies that you list have few minimum wage jobs, and what jobs they have paying minimum wage are more than likely to be janitorial jobs.

    Did you also know that Seattle has a very high teenage unemployment problem? How do you expect to train the workers of tomorrow if there are not jobs for them today?

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    June 30, 2014 12:24 p.m.

    Henry Ford decided he was going to increase his employee's pay well enough that they could afford to buy one of his cars.
    It worked out very well for both sides.
    Numerous studies show that paying a livable wage only increases the cost of products a couple of cents.
    This is all about greed, the wealthy hoarding more and more money while the majority can barely scrape by.

  • Shaun Sandy, UT
    June 30, 2014 11:46 a.m.

    Processes and task are going to be automated regardless of what happens to minimum wage. Mcdonalds wouldn't hire more workers if minimum wage was 50 cents an hour. They would just make more money.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    June 30, 2014 11:21 a.m.

    The whole supply and demand model is based on the assumption that neither side of a market has "market power," that is the ability to force a price. In the case of fast food labor one side has no market power - labor. But the purchasers of fast food labor, e.g. McDonalds, Burger King, KFC, etc have market power collectively because they collude, using the same labor price model in cooperation with each other. There's no "fair market wage" here.

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    June 30, 2014 10:48 a.m.

    Point 1, historically there has never been an inflationary spiral when the minimum wage was raised, contrariety every time it has stimulated the economy because those effected spent almost all of their income on survival. Point 2, Mike Richards, while the concepts you espouse are good in theory they are fiction. Free markets and fair market value were gobbled up many generations ago.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    June 30, 2014 10:48 a.m.

    @L White
    Springville, UT

    8:16 a.m. June 30, 2014

    ---

    My, my, my...
    Here we have a retired person living off of government Social Security and Medicare lecturing a former fast-food employee, now Veteran and Aerospace Engineer for 30 years working for 50% market value to keep her speech free being lectured by someone who's never even worked.

    BTW -- you "hubby" needs to get his facts straight. Small business only account for ~50% of all jobs [not his bogus 99%] .

    BTW -- most of the stuff you are buying is made by, supporting, and financing Communist Red China -- so please doesn't lecture me, I'm fighting Communists and Communist supporters.

    ========

    Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah

    The whole concept of "minimum wage" is ridiculous.

    [Communist Red China doesn't have a minimum wage or labor Unions.
    So much for you fight against Communism.]

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    June 30, 2014 10:25 a.m.

    Re: Mike Richards "The whole concept of "minimum wage" is ridiculous. No worker should expect to be paid more than fair market value for his services,..."

    By "fair market value" I assume you mean the wage coming out of a competitive labor market. But fast food, to pick an example, is more like oligopoly both as to product pricing and labor purchasing.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Chihuahua, 00
    June 30, 2014 10:24 a.m.

    You have to increase production in order to increase minimum wage. With all the jobs that are outsourced in this country, I don't think that is a possibility.

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    June 30, 2014 9:58 a.m.

    @ 2 bits

    I think we should get rid of all min wage laws, get rid of all welfare, SS, and Medicare, and give all tax cuts to the rich. Once we deregulate Wall Street even further we'll have an amazing economy. As long as we follow the Somalian model, we'll be a power house economically. Give the rich more of the workers' hard earned money and by magic the economy will grow!

    It makes sense if you don't think about it.

    There, Can I pass for a repub now?

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    June 30, 2014 9:45 a.m.

    Let me add two points to my cryptic baloney.

    1) We've been having this a minimum wage will destroy the economy discussion for decades now and we still have thriving hamburger companies, car washes, and every other enterprise effected by the minimum wage. Details have changed, and the specifics of the economy are different but the macro picture is very much the same in terms of services.

    2) There is only one population in this economy that creates and maintains log lasting, career oriented, life supporting jobs. Guess what, it's not entrepreneurs, it's not CEO's, and it's not rich investors. It's customers.

    Customers are the only population that can maintain a sustainable economy, and if the customers don't have the money to purchase all the tax cuts for the wealthy, all the tax breaks and incentives for corporations will do nothing to maintain a healthy economy.

    So shout your moral platitudes from the roof tops and continue to preach your unverified predictions about the unwise minimum wage as you shoot yourself in the foot.

  • HaHaHaHa Othello, WA
    June 30, 2014 9:30 a.m.

    Yeah, the business model of 1970 is the same as the business model of 2015, and the demographics and economics are the same also.

    Wow somebody's been to Seattle,....what do you want an award? Bet you went just to eat at and patronize all the minimum wage job establishments? Works so well!

    Seattle is a gorgeous city and surroundings, but that is all they really have to offer. I would personally drive 4 times the distance farther and take the $7 an hour (industrious) mindset over the $15 and hour (entitlement) mindset ANY day.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 30, 2014 8:57 a.m.

    I think we should raise ALL wages (not just the minimum).

    And we should pay women TWICE as much as we pay men!

    And let anybody who wants to come to this country enter and take jobs without even registering at the border.

    There... now can I get on a high-horse like a Democrat...?

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    June 30, 2014 8:56 a.m.

    Grover, that is one GREAT idea! But I'll bet no one would take you up on it. They know they'd lose.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    June 30, 2014 8:50 a.m.

    Ya -- crummy Seattle,
    You know --

    Boeing
    MicroSoft
    Nintendo, America
    Eddie Bauer
    Amazon
    Starbucks
    REI
    CostCo
    T-Mobile
    Weyerhaeuser
    Zillow

    all those ccrummy minimumm wage paying jobs...

    I suppose $15 an hour is outrageous in $7 an hour Utah.

    But,
    Don't expect to be a World Leader in anything
    when you're payng pauper's wages.

  • FreedomFighter41 Provo, UT
    June 30, 2014 8:48 a.m.

    When I see CEO salaries as high as they are... And how the Mcdonalds CEO just tripled his own salary because he could... I struggle to see how any of these arguments against raising the wage make any sense.

    Sorry repubs, I'm just not buying it.

    The kool-aid of, "We must give the rich all the benefits or else" nonsense has worn off.

    Did we learn nothing from the 2000-08 disaster?

  • GZE SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    June 30, 2014 8:43 a.m.

    Are you saying tourists will scratch Washington State off their list of places to visit because they'll have to budget a little more for food?

    Or that tourists won't eat?

  • Darrel Eagle Mountain, UT
    June 30, 2014 8:28 a.m.

    Good ol' Utah values place families first...

    Just not the means to provide for that family on anything less than a 2 incomes.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    June 30, 2014 8:23 a.m.

    Same old tired arguments that have been disproved time and time again.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    June 30, 2014 8:18 a.m.

    I just spent a beautiful week in glorious Seattle, a city that works well. I'm not staying away. I like the idea that the people who serve me in Seattle are getting a little better deal than they do in good ol' Utah.

  • L White Springville, UT
    June 30, 2014 8:16 a.m.

    My, my, my. We have the undercover newspaper employee who uses several alias and tells us that he works for the government giving us advice on economics. My hubby had a real laugh about that. My hubby knows just a little about real world ecomonics because that's the way he's fed our family.

    He simply said that if those people who think that raising the minimum wage does no harm were paying more to everyone without getting a raise themselves that they could learn something about what raising the minimum wage does. He said that almost everyone that serves the public is paid minimum wage, not just the people who work for McDonalds. He told me that small businesses represent more than 99% of all employers and that almost 70% of small businesses have five employees or less. Then he said that those businesses will either have to raise the price of their products or fire one or more employees. Then he said that anyone can look that stuff up on the Internet.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    June 30, 2014 8:15 a.m.

    HaHaHaHa
    Othello, WA
    Actually I'm pretty sure prices won't double.

    ======

    That was about the only thing you got right.

    I worked Fast Food for 4 years going through college [1970's].

    We made $1.90 an hour [minimum wageat the time].
    Usually had 4 on staff.

    Our sales were up to $1,000 an hour.
    [less than >1% -- 0.7%]

    Labor costs are a moot point.

    FYI -- the owner we worked for [who dropped in once in awhile] was a Millionaire.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    June 30, 2014 8:10 a.m.

    We have a perfect case here for a social experiment. Seattle is one of the top tourist spots in America and they (whoever "they" are) have raised the bar for entry level workers so that they just might be able to live in the same town in which they work. Several comments indicate that the market will rebel and that Seattle will pay the price in (to coin a phrase): "Jobs. Jobs. Jobs." We need the mayor of Seattle to make a bet with say ...John Boehner! Seattle puts up a Venti size Starbucks coffee vs. a bottle of "whine" from the Speaker. At the end of a year, the bet will be settled. If Seattle tourism drops even an inch, Seattle pays. If not, Boehner and all of the doomsters posting here give up their ridiculous claim that raising the minimum wage will cause calamity.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    June 30, 2014 8:06 a.m.

    Tourists don't really matter as they aren't coming from anywhere since their own minimum wage jobs don't provide them with enough extra money to take vacations to Utah.

  • HaHaHaHa Othello, WA
    June 30, 2014 7:56 a.m.

    Actually I'm pretty sure prices won't double. Employers will find ways to become more efficient. More mechanization, longer wait times for customers during busy periods, less workers hired. Whatever it takes.

  • HaHaHaHa Othello, WA
    June 30, 2014 7:54 a.m.

    Nice try, but hamburger price isn't going to increase only 7%. If you use your 7$ versus $15 example, then the cost of labor is going to more then double, no matter what. Not including additional payroll taxes. The worker isn't going to become more efficient. He isn't going to spend any less time standing around picking his nose, and yes sometimes he can even cook 2 or 3 burgers at a time, so factor all that out. Same hours, same amount of production, more the twice the cost = hamburger price doubling.

  • ordinaryfolks seattle, WA
    June 30, 2014 7:40 a.m.

    Why not bring back indentured servitude.. The minimum wage does not work. People are not hired because it is too expensive for Corporate America to hire them. So, just make them indentured servants. Is this a right wing solution, because we are bumping perilously close to this solution.

    The minimum wage does not cause unemployment. This has been demonstrated by research. To avoid any disruptions, and give employers a chance to vent their spleen, it is usually fazed in over a period of time. The Jeremiads who claim the sky is falling are lying to us.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    June 30, 2014 7:24 a.m.

    Is minimum wage expected to be a "living wage" or is it the wage that people with little or no experience should expect to receive when they enter the labor market? People who expect others to overpay them will expect government to pay for their housing, their food and their medical bills. They don't understand (or care) that "government" has no money until it takes that money from their neighbors. In effect, they expect their neighbor to pay them for doing as little as possible to care for themselves.

    The whole concept of "minimum wage" is ridiculous. No worker should expect to be paid more than fair market value for his services, just as he expects to pay no more that fair marker value for the products that he buys. When minimum wage goes up, the fair market value of the goods that minimum wage workers need the most also goes up - because it costs more to produce those goods.

    People will spend their very limited vacation dollars elsewhere.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    June 30, 2014 7:20 a.m.

    It looks like someone has a recurring beef with minimum wage.
    and Eric Gree rights into the Deseret News regularly about it.

    --------

    April 7, 2013

    To those who think the minimum wage should be increased, I respect your opinions ("Raise minimum wage," April 3). However, I disagree and believe that it should not be increased. It starts the growing problem known as inflation. If one thing is increased, like minimum wage, then everything else will inflate in price to be able to match it. Food, housing, fuel, transportation and a whole host of everything will become more expensive, and no amount of increase to minimum wage will stop that. Yes, people can barely get by on the current limit, but that is set up to help us learn how to conserve and be content with what is needed.

    Eric Green
    Bountiful

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    June 30, 2014 7:15 a.m.

    Let's do some 3rd grade math....

    Say, a hamburger costs $3,
    and a fast food worker can make it in under 2 minutes.

    $15 an hour = .25 cents / minute.
    $7 an hour = .12 cents / minute.

    So - labor cost is .50 cents vs. .25 cents.

    Therefore,
    The ACTUAL cost of the hamburger increased by .25 cents, or about 7%

    Hardly "The Sky is Falling" shill the letter writer is predicting will happen.

    BTW --
    tourists visiting Seattle are not the run-of-the-mill cheapscapes.

    This is not even be a blip on the radar...

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    June 30, 2014 7:10 a.m.

    Baloney!

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    June 30, 2014 12:32 a.m.

    And BTW, these wage reforms were enacted by REAL socialists, not liberals whom many Deseret News are wont to call socialists. Note that real socialists make a difference.

  • marxist Salt Lake City, UT
    June 30, 2014 12:24 a.m.

    I assume the writer refers to the $15.00 minimum wage in Seattle. The only pertinent question is: is this a living wage for Seattle?

    Also, how is this action illustrative of anarchy? Because the new minimum was enacted by socialists? The socialists involved did not throw Molotov cocktails or bombs. Everything they did was according to the laws of Seattle and Washington state.