Published: Sunday, June 29 2014 12:00 a.m. MDT
Hutterite Does that mean also, if the Supreme Court rules that
each state can decide what marriage is, that your side then would have to be
reasonable with that ruling?? I don't believe your side will.
People have forgotten that in this governed society that we live in, we are only
as free as the majority allows us to be free. The majority of this state still
understands the role of what marriage truly is. If the Supreme court
rules against us, I will accept it but I will never agree that it is correct,
wise, or good.Marriage is a Man and a Woman. Nothing else even comes
close to that union. It is so much more then just Love! Have your civil union
but quit calling it what it is not.
Sorry Jenet and Michael, there is nothing "good" about denying
someone's civil rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (i.e.
marriage equality). So then, we this law becomes a reality, I trust there will
be no backlash legislation from religious zealots who think they have a right to
deny services to gay people in order to preserve their religious beliefs?
Hugh1 -Actually, I know many who have changed and overcome SSA.
There were busloads of formerly gay men who showed up at the APA Convention the
year after they "voted" to remove homosexuality from the DSMIV. It cannot be denied that some have genuinely and permanently changed.
That the media refuse to report on it, and that those who have changed and want
to share their message are shouted down by the LGBT do not change reality.If we could objectively understand how change happens it would add to
the understanding of SSA and homosexuality. It appears, however, that the LGBT
are afraid of what we might find....
Have you seen the comments in the so called 'religious freedom' story
this morning? Not a lot of reasonable people there.
Redwings writes, "Actually, I know many who have changed and overcome SSA.
..It cannot be denied that some have genuinely and permanently changed... the
media refuse to report on it"More correctly, the respected media
do not report on it for the same reason they don't report about Bigfoot
sightings. Very few of the men who say they "overcame" SSA say that
that they aren't still attracted to men, but that they don't act on
these attractions. And not everybody tells the truth, particularly those who
belong to religions which regard SSA as evil. And even more particularly, when
they're questioned by another member of that same church.I'd like to know how many of these people you know who didn't come
from a family or religious community that stigmatized homosexuality.
@dave"'Nice job cherry picking poll results. You state that only
48% support gay marriage. What you conveniently failed to disclose it that poll
was people 65 and over."That's incorrect. 48% is the
overall support in the poll. For 65+ it was only 35% support. For 18-34 year
olds it was 61%.
The claims that same-sex attraction is unchangeable, and that same-sex marriage
can't change traditional marriage rates, are both false. Please read the
amicus briefs from Dr. McHugh. He cites abundant research showing changeability
in sexual orientation, particularly for women. One study showed that about 50%
of "lesbians" are bisexual or acknowledge flexibility in their sexual
orientation. In addition, he cites research of high variability in rates of
homosexuality depending on societal acceptance and norms. For example, it was
found that people that grew up in environments where homosexuality is more
likely to be socially accepted or promoted were four times more likely to become
homosexual than those that grew up in less-accepting environments. Places where
homosexuality is openly accepted (New Zealand is an example) showed
significantly higher rates of homosexuality. Given this research, it is rational
for a state to promote heterosexual marriage and not promote homosexuality, as a
measure to maintain or increase traditional marriage rates (and birth rates).
Dr. Diamond's research at the University of Utah on sexual fluidity also
shows that one's sexual orientation is changeable and not fixed for a large
percentage of homosexuals.
Donald Johnson, of course you are going to find more people self-identifying as
gay in a society that is welcoming to gays. But that doesn't mean that
people are "choosing" to be gay but rather that they are comfortable
being honest about who they are.Allegedly straight, married men are
arrested all the time in sting operations where they were seeking sex with
anonymous men in public restrooms. Two in the recent past were a senator from
Idaho and the pastor of a 5000 member Evangelical church in Washington.
Laura B-Please note that I said "overcame" not cured. No
one is denying that some have attraction to the same sex. My point is that the
LGBT continue to demonize those who chose to deny that attraction and not act on
it. It is a perfectly valid option for someone with SSA to want to follow his
religious beliefs and not the attraction.It is sad that anyone would
demand the right to behave a certain way (homosexually) while denying the fact
that others choose to act differently (SSA who act heterosexually). The fact
that there are many with SSA who actually don't want to have it may not
square with your world view, but it is a reality. The hypocrisy in
the gay movement would be laughable if it were not so sad.
rob88scps"Equality" doesn't mean calling an orange an apple.
Utah defines marriage as a covenant relationship between a man and a
woman… No person, gay or otherwise, is barred from entering into an
opposite-sex relationship. Equal protection does not mean that we can change the
definitions of legal terms whenever we're in the mood.KJKThe
South said the same thing but added "same race" to the definition
claiming that all were treated equally since all still could marry…just
not to their beloved.BYUtah FanThe problem is that the courts
are creating a "right" virtually out of thin air. The term "equal
protection" is vague enough that an equal protection argument can be made
about most any law. For example "drunk drivers are not receiving equal
protection of the laws because they are treated differently than sober
drivers".KJKDrunks objectively put others at risk, SSM
doesn't. No EP violation for drunks.Donald JohnsonThe
claims that same-sex attraction …can't change traditional marriage
rates (is) false.KJKSSM is a co-symptom rather than the cause of
falling marriage rates. Both stem from secular (good) and socialistic (bad)
Redwings, nobody on the pro-LGBT rights side is "demonizing" religious
men who try to act as though they are not experiencing SSA. Who we criticize
are the people--and yes, most of them are conservative, religious folk--who tell
gays that they are devil possessed / cursed / defective / pedophiles. Or worse,
that they've made some bargain with Satan (assuming he exists), and are a
danger to your children and your straight marriages. And that to
"protect" your straight marriage, they should stay invisible and
celibate.Every Mormon ward has had couples who were divorced when
the husband could not longer playact and pretend that he was heterosexual.
Sometimes the wives had no clue that their husbands were gay, and are shocked
when their husbands come out after five or ten or twenty years of marriage.
Worse, sometimes their first hint comes when the husband is arrested in a sting
operation or contracts HIV. How different their lives could have been if they
had not been raised to believe that being gay was an abomination. And yes, we
blame this human wreckage on people like you whose love is conditional--far
different from that of Jesus.
RedWings CLEARFIELD, UTLaura B-Please note
that I said "overcame" not cured. No one is denying that some have
attraction to the same sex. My point is that the LGBT continue to demonize those
who chose to deny that attraction and not act on it. It is a perfectly valid
option for someone with SSA to want to follow his religious beliefs and not the
attraction.---------------You do know that the Church
does not want gays to marry, don't you? This used to be the "cure"
for homosexuality --get married and have children. Act heterosexual. Now, the
church wants them to be celibate. There have just been too many wonderful LDS
women who married these men and who became more and more depressed because THEIR
needs were not being fulfilled. They did not feel wanted or loved. And then
their husband leaves and announces that they have always been gay. Is that the scenario that you are wanting your daughter to go through, all
just to help a young, gay, LDS man to "overcome" his homosexual
attractions? I doubt it. I know I do not want my daughter to be in that
Laura Bilington,Thank you for that kind response.I was
born in 1958. I have to admit, I did consider marrying a women to adhere to
societal and social pressure of growing up in a very Mormon family and community
in Idaho.As a gay teenager, I knew I would be discriminated against,
possibly disowned by my Mormon family. I tried to hide this fact for many
years.I felt that marrying a woman would be totally dishonest and
felt it was against everything I was brought up to believe. I should try to live
a lie? It made no sense to me. Henceforth, I started considering
the church in general and came to believe I could not be a full person living in
that faith.It took many years, but next month at 56 I will attend my
"Family Reunion" in Idaho with all my siblings and both parent (who are
in their 90's.)We really do have wonderful dedicated Mormon
parents. All of my straight siblings, however, have been divorced. Yet, I am legally married in CA and have been with my partner for 19 years?
AND, I helped raise two straight kids that are doing great!
Laura - The fact is, those who have overcome SSA are demonized by
the LGBT. It is understandable. If SSA can be overcome, it is not a
necessarily a characteristic that needs to be protected by law.Sorry, I have not heard any of your examples from the LDS Church or its
members. Not to say individuals haven't said it, but it is unfair to
attack a church for individual's behavior. And, if they are said, I find
them represhensible and not in line with Church doctrine as I understand it.My ward has no couple that has been divorced because the husband has
come out as gay. Neither do the 4 wards that border mine.You do not
know me, so to judge me is unfair, but typical of the LGBT. I have many gay
friends whom I love, but I do not condone their lifestyle. We spend our time on
common interests not divisive ones.Christ - the real one, not the
one liberals peddle - loves all but commands obedience. That is plain from
reading any translation of the New Testament. Christ's teachings cannot be
taken ala carte.
Dear Red Wings, "I have many gay friends whom I love, but I do
not condone their lifestyle."That IS the point, right?I feel the same way - I have many Mormon friends and relatives that I love -
But, I do NOT condone their beliefs ............. or voting on My Marriage.
@RedWings;You don't know anybody who has "overcome"
SSA. If you ask them, I'm sure they'll tell you they're still
attracted to members of their own gender. Sure, they can suppress those
feelings, but they're still gay inside.If you only knew how
many hours many of us have spent on our knees begging for these feelings to go
away; night after night, day after day, year after year. All to no avail. I
was in my 30's before I was able to accept that I wasn't going to
change. I changed my prayers from asking to change, to asking for acceptance of
how I am. All the guilt, despair, self-loathing went away immediately. You are
spreading lies when you make claims that it is something that can be overcome.
Unless you've actually managed to change your own orientation from
straight, to gay and back again, you truly don't know what you're
talking about.@rob88scps;Utah is NOT treating everyone
the same under the laws. They're giving some couples legal protections and
denying those protections to others; for no other reason then the genders of the
It's hard for the side with the rights to claim they are being oppressed by
the minority that wants the same rights.It is similar to asking the
Slaves of the South to be patient with their Southern slave owners because of
differences of opinion.Or the Mormons in Missouri while the Mobs
removed them from their homes, and endured the horrors of Hauns Mill.Yes, there can be differences of opinion, but that should not stand in the way
of equal treatment before the law. Rights should be available to all, and
people can debate and have whatever feelings they want as to whether the way the
rights are being used is worthy of condemnation from God afterward.
@RanchThank you for sharing your story. You should never be ashamed
of who you are. If you feel comfortable with your Creator, it is in no way my
place to say you should feel otherwise, that relationship is strictly
personal.I do not know if there is a "gay gene" or not. All
I know is that I never thought about liking girls, it was just kinda immediate
and natural. If someone asked me to start liking men...I can guarantee it
wouldn't happen, no matter the prayers to change my straightness, or the
therapy to change me I would undergo.If my feelings and attractions
to the opposite sex are at all indicative of how some with SSA feels, I can
understand why therapy would be very counter-productive. Those feelings within
us are very strong, and make a good deal of who we are inside.
Thank you, Deseret News, for this informative op ed by the Ericksons. I
appreciate their thoughtful and reasonable approach to this sensitive subject.
I support their view, as a reasonable person. We all have our reasons to feel
one way or another, and isn't it great that we still have the liberty and
freedom to support our reasons and feelings by public expression. I'm sad
to see the ugly word "bigot" be included in some of the responses. We
can support traditional marriage that has maintained societies for thousands of
years and not feel any animosity towards those who don't share our
feelings. "Good-faith beliefs" are not hate or bigotry. We can love
each other and disagree. My studies point me to the fact that homosexual
behavior is not immutable and that there is no compelling reason for treating it
as a protected category under civil rights laws. Therefore, let the people of
the states decide as marriage has always been a state issue. More appropriate
and kind public debate is needed. I believe gay couples should enjoy basic
"rights" which can be granted through legislation rather than tampering
with the institution of marriage.
I would like to understand why it is so important for same-sex couples to have
the stamp of approval of state recognized marriage. Aren't the same rights
and privileges available through contract law? Can't anyone designate
their friend, partner, or whoever, to receive health benefits and death
benefits? Haven't single adoptions have been going on for years. What
exactly is it that marriage provides that can't be provided any other way?
Why can't there be a distinction between heterosexual unions
and same-sex unions?Why can't we keep "husband & wife" as
a distinction for heterosexual unions? Why do we have to change birth
certificates to "Party A" and "Party B" or some similar
reference that loses the traditional "mother" and "father" that
nature still requires?Equal doesn't mean the same. It just
doesn't make sense that same sex unions are considered the same as
heterosexual marriage. Let's live and let live and agree to disagree and
treat each other with love and compassion. I don't have to agree with
everything you do or say in order to be your friend. But friends allow
differences. Often even enjoy them.
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