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Comments about ‘10th Circuit Court ruling: Reasonable people can have good-faith disagreements’

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Published: Sunday, June 29 2014 12:00 a.m. MDT

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Blue Collar
Huntington, UT

Hutterite

Does that mean also, if the Supreme Court rules that each state can decide what marriage is, that your side then would have to be reasonable with that ruling?? I don't believe your side will.
People have forgotten that in this governed society that we live in, we are only as free as the majority allows us to be free. The majority of this state still understands the role of what marriage truly is.
If the Supreme court rules against us, I will accept it but I will never agree that it is correct, wise, or good.
Marriage is a Man and a Woman. Nothing else even comes close to that union. It is so much more then just Love! Have your civil union but quit calling it what it is not.

waikiki_dave
Honolulu, HI

Sorry Jenet and Michael, there is nothing "good" about denying someone's civil rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (i.e. marriage equality). So then, we this law becomes a reality, I trust there will be no backlash legislation from religious zealots who think they have a right to deny services to gay people in order to preserve their religious beliefs?

RedWings
CLEARFIELD, UT

Hugh1 -

Actually, I know many who have changed and overcome SSA. There were busloads of formerly gay men who showed up at the APA Convention the year after they "voted" to remove homosexuality from the DSMIV.

It cannot be denied that some have genuinely and permanently changed. That the media refuse to report on it, and that those who have changed and want to share their message are shouted down by the LGBT do not change reality.

If we could objectively understand how change happens it would add to the understanding of SSA and homosexuality. It appears, however, that the LGBT are afraid of what we might find....

Hutterite
American Fork, UT

Have you seen the comments in the so called 'religious freedom' story this morning? Not a lot of reasonable people there.

Laura Bilington
Maple Valley, WA

Redwings writes, "Actually, I know many who have changed and overcome SSA. ..It cannot be denied that some have genuinely and permanently changed... the media refuse to report on it"

More correctly, the respected media do not report on it for the same reason they don't report about Bigfoot sightings. Very few of the men who say they "overcame" SSA say that that they aren't still attracted to men, but that they don't act on these attractions. And not everybody tells the truth, particularly those who belong to religions which regard SSA as evil. And even more particularly, when they're questioned by another member of that same church.

I'd like to know how many of these people you know who didn't come from a family or religious community that stigmatized homosexuality.

Frozen Fractals
Salt Lake City, UT

@dave
"'Nice job cherry picking poll results. You state that only 48% support gay marriage. What you conveniently failed to disclose it that poll was people 65 and over."

That's incorrect. 48% is the overall support in the poll. For 65+ it was only 35% support. For 18-34 year olds it was 61%.

Donald Johnson
Somewhere, MI

The claims that same-sex attraction is unchangeable, and that same-sex marriage can't change traditional marriage rates, are both false. Please read the amicus briefs from Dr. McHugh. He cites abundant research showing changeability in sexual orientation, particularly for women. One study showed that about 50% of "lesbians" are bisexual or acknowledge flexibility in their sexual orientation. In addition, he cites research of high variability in rates of homosexuality depending on societal acceptance and norms. For example, it was found that people that grew up in environments where homosexuality is more likely to be socially accepted or promoted were four times more likely to become homosexual than those that grew up in less-accepting environments. Places where homosexuality is openly accepted (New Zealand is an example) showed significantly higher rates of homosexuality. Given this research, it is rational for a state to promote heterosexual marriage and not promote homosexuality, as a measure to maintain or increase traditional marriage rates (and birth rates). Dr. Diamond's research at the University of Utah on sexual fluidity also shows that one's sexual orientation is changeable and not fixed for a large percentage of homosexuals.

Laura Bilington
Maple Valley, WA

Donald Johnson, of course you are going to find more people self-identifying as gay in a society that is welcoming to gays. But that doesn't mean that people are "choosing" to be gay but rather that they are comfortable being honest about who they are.

Allegedly straight, married men are arrested all the time in sting operations where they were seeking sex with anonymous men in public restrooms. Two in the recent past were a senator from Idaho and the pastor of a 5000 member Evangelical church in Washington.

RedWings
CLEARFIELD, UT

Laura B-

Please note that I said "overcame" not cured. No one is denying that some have attraction to the same sex. My point is that the LGBT continue to demonize those who chose to deny that attraction and not act on it. It is a perfectly valid option for someone with SSA to want to follow his religious beliefs and not the attraction.

It is sad that anyone would demand the right to behave a certain way (homosexually) while denying the fact that others choose to act differently (SSA who act heterosexually). The fact that there are many with SSA who actually don't want to have it may not square with your world view, but it is a reality.

The hypocrisy in the gay movement would be laughable if it were not so sad.

Kevin J. Kirkham
Salt Lake City, UT

rob88scps
"Equality" doesn't mean calling an orange an apple. Utah defines marriage as a covenant relationship between a man and a woman… No person, gay or otherwise, is barred from entering into an opposite-sex relationship. Equal protection does not mean that we can change the definitions of legal terms whenever we're in the mood.
KJK
The South said the same thing but added "same race" to the definition claiming that all were treated equally since all still could marry…just not to their beloved.

BYUtah Fan
The problem is that the courts are creating a "right" virtually out of thin air. The term "equal protection" is vague enough that an equal protection argument can be made about most any law. For example "drunk drivers are not receiving equal protection of the laws because they are treated differently than sober drivers".
KJK
Drunks objectively put others at risk, SSM doesn't. No EP violation for drunks.

Donald Johnson
The claims that same-sex attraction …can't change traditional marriage rates (is) false.
KJK
SSM is a co-symptom rather than the cause of falling marriage rates. Both stem from secular (good) and socialistic (bad) policies.

Laura Bilington
Maple Valley, WA

Redwings, nobody on the pro-LGBT rights side is "demonizing" religious men who try to act as though they are not experiencing SSA. Who we criticize are the people--and yes, most of them are conservative, religious folk--who tell gays that they are devil possessed / cursed / defective / pedophiles. Or worse, that they've made some bargain with Satan (assuming he exists), and are a danger to your children and your straight marriages. And that to "protect" your straight marriage, they should stay invisible and celibate.

Every Mormon ward has had couples who were divorced when the husband could not longer playact and pretend that he was heterosexual. Sometimes the wives had no clue that their husbands were gay, and are shocked when their husbands come out after five or ten or twenty years of marriage. Worse, sometimes their first hint comes when the husband is arrested in a sting operation or contracts HIV. How different their lives could have been if they had not been raised to believe that being gay was an abomination. And yes, we blame this human wreckage on people like you whose love is conditional--far different from that of Jesus.

MtnDewer
Salt Lake City, UT

RedWings

CLEARFIELD, UT

Laura B-

Please note that I said "overcame" not cured. No one is denying that some have attraction to the same sex. My point is that the LGBT continue to demonize those who chose to deny that attraction and not act on it. It is a perfectly valid option for someone with SSA to want to follow his religious beliefs and not the attraction.

---------------

You do know that the Church does not want gays to marry, don't you? This used to be the "cure" for homosexuality --get married and have children. Act heterosexual. Now, the church wants them to be celibate. There have just been too many wonderful LDS women who married these men and who became more and more depressed because THEIR needs were not being fulfilled. They did not feel wanted or loved. And then their husband leaves and announces that they have always been gay.

Is that the scenario that you are wanting your daughter to go through, all just to help a young, gay, LDS man to "overcome" his homosexual attractions? I doubt it. I know I do not want my daughter to be in that circumstance.

MoNoMo
Fair Oaks, CA

Laura Bilington,

Thank you for that kind response.

I was born in 1958. I have to admit, I did consider marrying a women to adhere to societal and social pressure of growing up in a very Mormon family and community in Idaho.

As a gay teenager, I knew I would be discriminated against, possibly disowned by my Mormon family. I tried to hide this fact for many years.

I felt that marrying a woman would be totally dishonest and felt it was against everything I was brought up to believe. I should try to live a lie? It made no sense to me.

Henceforth, I started considering the church in general and came to believe I could not be a full person living in that faith.

It took many years, but next month at 56 I will attend my "Family Reunion" in Idaho with all my siblings and both parent (who are in their 90's.)

We really do have wonderful dedicated Mormon parents. All of my straight siblings, however, have been divorced.

Yet, I am legally married in CA and have been with my partner for 19 years?

AND, I helped raise two straight kids that are doing great!

RedWings
CLEARFIELD, UT

Laura -

The fact is, those who have overcome SSA are demonized by the LGBT. It is understandable. If SSA can be overcome, it is not a necessarily a characteristic that needs to be protected by law.

Sorry, I have not heard any of your examples from the LDS Church or its members. Not to say individuals haven't said it, but it is unfair to attack a church for individual's behavior. And, if they are said, I find them represhensible and not in line with Church doctrine as I understand it.

My ward has no couple that has been divorced because the husband has come out as gay. Neither do the 4 wards that border mine.

You do not know me, so to judge me is unfair, but typical of the LGBT. I have many gay friends whom I love, but I do not condone their lifestyle. We spend our time on common interests not divisive ones.

Christ - the real one, not the one liberals peddle - loves all but commands obedience. That is plain from reading any translation of the New Testament. Christ's teachings cannot be taken ala carte.

MoNoMo
Fair Oaks, CA

Dear Red Wings,

"I have many gay friends whom I love, but I do not condone their lifestyle."

That IS the point, right?

I feel the same way - I have many Mormon friends and relatives that I love - But, I do NOT condone their beliefs ............. or voting on My Marriage.

Ranch
Here, UT

@RedWings;

You don't know anybody who has "overcome" SSA. If you ask them, I'm sure they'll tell you they're still attracted to members of their own gender. Sure, they can suppress those feelings, but they're still gay inside.

If you only knew how many hours many of us have spent on our knees begging for these feelings to go away; night after night, day after day, year after year. All to no avail. I was in my 30's before I was able to accept that I wasn't going to change. I changed my prayers from asking to change, to asking for acceptance of how I am. All the guilt, despair, self-loathing went away immediately. You are spreading lies when you make claims that it is something that can be overcome. Unless you've actually managed to change your own orientation from straight, to gay and back again, you truly don't know what you're talking about.

@rob88scps;

Utah is NOT treating everyone the same under the laws. They're giving some couples legal protections and denying those protections to others; for no other reason then the genders of the couples.

Darrel
Eagle Mountain, UT

It's hard for the side with the rights to claim they are being oppressed by the minority that wants the same rights.

It is similar to asking the Slaves of the South to be patient with their Southern slave owners because of differences of opinion.

Or the Mormons in Missouri while the Mobs removed them from their homes, and endured the horrors of Hauns Mill.

Yes, there can be differences of opinion, but that should not stand in the way of equal treatment before the law. Rights should be available to all, and people can debate and have whatever feelings they want as to whether the way the rights are being used is worthy of condemnation from God afterward.

Darrel
Eagle Mountain, UT

@Ranch

Thank you for sharing your story. You should never be ashamed of who you are. If you feel comfortable with your Creator, it is in no way my place to say you should feel otherwise, that relationship is strictly personal.

I do not know if there is a "gay gene" or not. All I know is that I never thought about liking girls, it was just kinda immediate and natural. If someone asked me to start liking men...I can guarantee it wouldn't happen, no matter the prayers to change my straightness, or the therapy to change me I would undergo.

If my feelings and attractions to the opposite sex are at all indicative of how some with SSA feels, I can understand why therapy would be very counter-productive. Those feelings within us are very strong, and make a good deal of who we are inside.

Pepper2
Springville, Utah, UT

Thank you, Deseret News, for this informative op ed by the Ericksons. I appreciate their thoughtful and reasonable approach to this sensitive subject. I support their view, as a reasonable person. We all have our reasons to feel one way or another, and isn't it great that we still have the liberty and freedom to support our reasons and feelings by public expression. I'm sad to see the ugly word "bigot" be included in some of the responses. We can support traditional marriage that has maintained societies for thousands of years and not feel any animosity towards those who don't share our feelings. "Good-faith beliefs" are not hate or bigotry. We can love each other and disagree. My studies point me to the fact that homosexual behavior is not immutable and that there is no compelling reason for treating it as a protected category under civil rights laws. Therefore, let the people of the states decide as marriage has always been a state issue. More appropriate and kind public debate is needed. I believe gay couples should enjoy basic "rights" which can be granted through legislation rather than tampering with the institution of marriage.

Zabet
Spanish Fork, UT

I would like to understand why it is so important for same-sex couples to have the stamp of approval of state recognized marriage. Aren't the same rights and privileges available through contract law? Can't anyone designate their friend, partner, or whoever, to receive health benefits and death benefits? Haven't single adoptions have been going on for years. What exactly is it that marriage provides that can't be provided any other way?

Why can't there be a distinction between heterosexual unions and same-sex unions?
Why can't we keep "husband & wife" as a distinction for heterosexual unions?
Why do we have to change birth certificates to "Party A" and "Party B" or some similar reference that loses the traditional "mother" and "father" that nature still requires?

Equal doesn't mean the same. It just doesn't make sense that same sex unions are considered the same as heterosexual marriage. Let's live and let live and agree to disagree and treat each other with love and compassion. I don't have to agree with everything you do or say in order to be your friend. But friends allow differences. Often even enjoy them.

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