The war would be the next one hundred year war if conservatives want to micro
manage the sunni-shite issue for oil.
Wow, Ryan, so now Obama, implementing an agreement made by Bush, is now
responsible for solving a conflict between two factions of Islam that has been
going on for a thousand years. Is there any water you want him to walk on, too?
The republican and democrat congress and the Bush administration heard all that
was presented to them concerning Iraq by our intelligence community. Prior to
the Bush administration, we the public were repeatedly informed by Sec State
Madam Albright of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction and all the mischief
that Suddam H was orchestrating.. When Pres. Bush decided to declare war
against Iraq - his decision was approved by Congress. At that time, even former
Pres. Clinton declared it to be "the right thing to do." Now of course
it is the popular thing to decry Bush - but if so, surely blame casts its net?.
For arguments sake, if Suddam H had not been taken out - what would we have been
faced with today - imagine Iraq, Iran, Yemen, and Syria united against Isreal?
"Lets just admit that when we vote in a community organizer who still acts
as if everyone in the world will bow to his wisdom, we can expect outcomes like
this"Really? Really? Really? This doesn't even make any
@Mike Richards. So how much money are you personally going to put up to help
Iraq? We are under no obligation to help another country.
I am absolutely shocked at Mike Richards saying that "de facto" war is
appropriate. Does the Constitution specifically use the words "de facto
war"? I think not!
Lets just admit that when we vote in a community organizer who still acts as if
everyone in the world will bow to his wisdom, we can expect outcomes like this.
Contrary to what some posters have said, I take no delight in seeing any of his
failures. His failures are our failures as Americans. Hopefully in the future
we'll vote for someone because they're good, effective, and wise. I
still have hope for that.
Hey 2bits –“what about these statements from
Democrats...”Yes, what about them? The Dems believed the GW
Bush administration, and it is no surprise they passed along the misinformation
they were told. Thanks for confirming my claims.I myself, along with
many millions of other Americans, was absolutely taken in. I was hoping that
our troops would find the huge WMD production and launch facilities before those
massive stores of WMD’s were used against us. Of course, in retrospect, I
needn’t have worried.And yes, Sadaam did at one time have a
large stockpile of WMD’s, but that was ancient history by the time the
Bush administration came along. Any quotes you have from years before are
IMMATERIAL to the situation as it existed during the Bush administration.If I quoted FDR as saying that Germany and Japan are our most formidable
enemies, would that have ANY resemblance to reality now? Of course not. Things
change over time. And Iraq’s WMD capability, once formidable, was down to
ZERO by the time GW came along with his lies.
"The intelligence on WMDs in Iraq ultimately proved faulty, but democrats
supported the war at the time. "Those of us who frequented the
Libertarian antiwar website knew from the very beginning that the WMD argument
was bogus. The WMD didn't "ultimately prove faulty," it was bogus
from the outset for anyone who bothered to look.
@GaryO,If it was just Republicans and their lies... what about these
statements from Democrats..."[W]e urge you, after consulting
with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take
necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect
Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraqs refusal to end
its weapons of mass destruction programs; Feinstein, Daschle, Kerry
1998"========(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of
weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use
that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983; Sandy Berger,1998======If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would
follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow. Bill Clinton 1998======In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence
reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and
biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear
program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including
Al Qaeda members, ( Hillary Clinton,2002)
@2bitsYou make an interesting case with the quote from President
Clinton.Please allow me to add a little more to the discussion for
consideration.1) I remember that people were questioning the
"convenience" of the timing of these attacks. It happened at the same
time Ms. Lewinsky gave her testimony to the special prosecutor that would lead
to President Clinton's impeachment. Many thought it was a diversion to
remove attention from himself and his personal affairs. This
doesn't mean there were no NBC weapons in Iraq, but I think it can be used
by those who wish to cast doubt to strengthen their argument.2) When
I was serving in Operation Iraqi freedom, we were required to have a protective
mask, but we were not required to carry it on our person, as the threat of an
NBC attack was considered to be almost non-existent. So the Army had very
little concern over an Iraqi NBC threat. Again, not a smoking gun as
to there non-existence, but it is something to consider.
@GaryO,Very moving. I almost believed it was only Republicans (and their
lies that got Democrats to vote for it). But then I Remember... Bill Clinton
attacked Iraq too... and considered Hussien "The biggest threat to
peace".Google "Transcript: President Clinton explains Iraq
strike"..."CLINTON: Good evening.Earlier today,
I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in
Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's
nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to
threaten its neighbors.Their purpose is to protect the national
interest of the United States, and indeed the interests of people throughout the
Middle East and around the world.Saddam Hussein must not be allowed
to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or
biological weapons.I want to explain why I have decided, with the
unanimous recommendation of my national security team, to use force in Iraq; why
we have acted now; and what we aim to accomplish."...Obviously
President CLINTON thought Hussein had biological and chemical weapons too. Only "know-it-alls" like GaryO, knew all along he didn't
Mike Richards, "YOU are free. How about the other seven billion people on
earth? "This is your mistake and it's a big one. To
believe that freedom and democracy can be brought to parts of the world by
military force, that first of all, have never had it, and secondly don't
necessarily as a culture want it. Secondly you mistake places like
Iraq as legitimate self formed countries with common goals and aspirations.
It's not.Iraq falls apart for the same reason the Soviet Union
fell apart. They both are hobbled together nations or societies of divergent
cultures and once the dictatorial power holding them together falls apart they
fall apart, and only more dictatorial power can put them back together.
Conservatives:If you need a war fought in your country, we'll
go no matter the cost. Can't put a price tag on Liberty.Oh,
you need food assistance and live in our Country? You're on your own.
Obamacare and food stamps are bankrupting us.A little inconsistent,
Procuradorfiscal.If I was the leader of a small country in a world
of giants I might broadcast loud and often that I possessed a super weapon that
made me just as big as any other country. The probably truth is that Saddam
Hussein was just like the other national leaders and was neither the best or the
Maverick,You've asked the wrong question. What is the price of
freedom? You enjoy freedom. You have the liberty to choose your life. Are you
more important than anyone else? You didn't "buy" your freedom.
Others paid the price. Millions have died so that YOU are free. How about the
other seven billion people on earth? Are you better than they? Is you life
more important than their's?God gave us agency. He intended
that each of us be free to choose how we will live and what we will do with that
freedom. He never intended that you or I or anyone else be "more" free
than anyone else. The price of agency is to give our all, if required, so that
all mankind have the privilege to be free. As Americans, we should
know that the price of liberty has been paid for us by those who died to obtain
that freedom. Are we better than they?
@MikeI did not criticize President Bush in my previous post. Of all
the mistakes in Iraq, going to Congress first was one of the few things that
went right.Whether or not we left at the right time is another
debate, but it is clear the President would need a reauthorization from
Congress. So before we criticize his lack of action, why don't we
criticize Congress first for their lack of action?
I'm still waiting for anyone to prove to me that Iraq had anything to do
with 9/11 and this so called 3 month war was anything other than a cabal to
fleece us. Shift the blame if you want to but it doesn't change the fact
that we were doing the bidding the power brokers.
@ Mike RichardsHow many more lives would have been destroyed had
Nixon and the repubs continued to expand the war into Laos and Cambodia? Instead
of talking about thousands we would be talking about millions had Nixon and the
repubs gotten their wish to use atomic weapons against all those south Asian
countries. I don't think repubs remember or want to remember this part of
history. Nixon lied (imagine that) about ending the war. He expanded the war and
desired to use atomic weapons. So it is actually you who needs to review
history.Furthermore, what you continue to demonstrate is that you
don't believe that other peoples should have the right to choice. You
believe that America has the god given right to invade, occupy, and attempt to
force our ideals and principles on others.That's not the lords plan
at all. You continue to find it much easier to send others to fight while
you write comfortably on your iPad from home. Cowards do that. If some of you
feel strongly about continual American intervention, then stop writing on the
Internet and join.
Hey Mike Richards -"Mr. Obama has a duty to those people because
HE removed the troops that protected them."WRONG.Barack Hussein Obama is the President of the United States, not the emperor of
the world.Obama's duty it to defend the Constitution and
protect the American people. The Founders said nothing about any duty to
protect citizens of other nations. In fact it was the Father of our country,
George Washington, who warned against "foreign entanglements."Sure, if we can, it's right to assist other powers in fending off
atrocities committed by foreign despots and terrorists, but not if the risk to
America and Americans is too high.Your take on history is always
interesting. I didn't realize that Ted Kennedy commanded Nixon to remove
troops from Vietnam.What is the result of that withdrawal anyway?
The US and Vietnam are on fairly good terms now, and Vietnam is one nation where
we DON'T have military bases sucking up taxpayer dollars.In
retrospect, we may be better off to have lost that war.
Too long to quote but Washington's Farewell Address had a lot to say about
avoiding foreign entanglements. The older I get, the more wisdom I find in our
first President's parting words.
I'm sorry. I'm a conservative Republican, but I must come over to the
liberal side on this issue.No good can come from continuing
involvement in the middle east, militarily, or otherwise. They ARE tribal, and
will probably continue that trend for the next 5000 years. We have the sunnis,
shias, and kurds, then within those "tribes" are the various military
factions, (Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.) The ONLY reason they recognize borders at
all is due to world, and U.N. influences.I feel terrible that we
have lost so many American lives in the middle east, but continuing to send
troops there, ultimately, won't do much good.THEY need to
stabilize their countries - IF they have the desire, which I doubt.Can we CONTINUE being the worlds policeman?We have actual U.S. troops in
over 70 countries, (besides the Marines in embassies)where will it end?Our OWN citizens need help. Not to mention our southern border.
Max,Congress approved the "war" with Iraq. Both Republicans
and Democrats voted to fund the war. It wasn't a formal declaration of
war, but it was a "de facto" declaration of war. The President did not
act without the consent of Congress (as required) and funding for the war (as
required) was legislated by Congress. Congress was consulted. Congress
approved. Congress allocated the funds. There was no move by the President to
circumvent Congress, unlike what Obama is doing now.
Mr. Phillips,Your extremely biased perceptions mirror those of
Right Wing propagandist who try to influence public opinion by broadcasting
half-truths and outright lies. Apparently these propagandists are really good at
their jobs, or perhaps a certain segment of society does not really want to know
or admit the truth.The premise of your anti-Obama spiel is faulty and
typical of the Right Wing mindset.“ . . . but democrats
supported the war at the time . . .” Yes, but you forgot to mention that
Democrats supported the war ONLY because they believed the falsehoods
perpetrated by the Republican GW Bush administration. In other words, the
biggest mistake the Democrats made was to believe Republicans. Fortunately, we
learn from our mistakes.Blaming Obama for Iraq is preposterous on
other levels as well. GW and the Republicans embroiled the nation in a
completely unnecessary war. GW signed the SOFA stipulating US forces would be
withdrawn by the end of 2011. The Iraqis insisted. Obama complied.Now, Republicans are implying that US forces should be stationed in the Middle
East in perpetuity like sitting ducks, perfect targets for terrorists. Face it, Republican “logic” is dangerous to this nation and the
@Mike RichardsYou strike me as a strict constitutionalist...So
before the President were to send in troops and jeopardize more lives,
shouldn't Congress issue a Declaration of War as per Section 8 of Article
I?Wouldn't it be more prudent to urge Congress to action rather
than the Executive to overstep the bounds set in the Constitution?
Lives are at stake. Those who tell us that Obama is correct need to review
history. When Ted Kennedy told us to get out of Vietnam, 400,000 people were
killed after we withdrew. This who have no regard for life will always put a
dollar figure on military support. They will tell us that only their life is
important; that the life of the citizens of Iraq are not important, even though
we promised those people that we would protect them against those who wanted to
kill them.Mr. Obama has a duty to those people because HE removed
the troops that protected them.
@Maverick,Never said Syria got WMDs from Iraq... did I? Read my
post.If you KNEW his weapons had already been destroyed... you knew
more than the UN and their inspectors. Otherwise... why all the UN resolutions
insisting Iraq dispose of it's WMDs and allow inspectors to verify it??I mean we know a lot of things NOW... that we didn't know FOR SURE
then. But you can't pretend we should have made decisions on
stuff we know now... that we didn't know for sure then (and couldn't
find out for sure because Hussein kicked out the inspectors).==========I wish we hadn't done anything militarily in Iraq
as well... but we don't know what WOULD have happened in the middle-east IF
we had done nothing.I seriously think the middle-east would be even
WORSE off IF Saddam Hussein was still in power and doing what he was doing.We may have had a world war (started in the middle-east) if we had done
nothing and let Saddam Hussein do his thing. We will never know.
@ 2 bitsHogwash. Syria didn't get WMDs from Iraq. They got them
from Russia. Everyone knows that except for the staunchest Bush apologists and
Iraqi war supporters (which you are one of). Just how many times must you folks
be proven wrong?Saddam didn't have WMDs. His WMDs programs had
been destroyed for nearly 2 decades before we invaded Iraq. He knew that
actually having these programs would risk further action from the UN. However,
he did want to lead others to believe that he indeed had WMDs. Why? Because look
at his neighbor next door. If he could lead Iran to believe that he still had
WMDs, they wouldn't mess with him. Hence, why studying history
and seeing things from other perspectives (not just the American one) becomes so
important. Unfortunately, repubs hate anything foreign these days. Just look at
Ann Coulter's comments against soccer!
Re: "The intelligence on WMDs in Iraq ultimately proved faulty . . .
."No, it didn't.Saddam possessed and used
weapons of mass destruction. He transferred some to Syria, and some of those are
being destroyed today [though Obama allowed Syria to maintain a significant
chemical weapons capability]. He was actively, though fecklessly, working on
obtaining nuclear weapons, threatening his enemies with them, and bragging about
them to his friends. Though he thought he had more time than he really did to
obtain those weapons, he was determined to use them against any threats to his
vicious regime or its expansionist, modern-Caliphate objectives, including his
neighbors and us.Our intelligence [and that of every other nation
with an intelligence service] was faulty only to the extent it ascribed to
Saddam less corruption, more ability and effectiveness than turned out to be the
case.Obama knows that every scary motive that determined
Saddam's actions also applies to ISIS. He knows we will eventually be
engaged in a difficult, existential fight with ISIS, or some other demonic group
on the Islamist fringe.He just refuses to address the issue.
The Iraqi war was started by the Oil men of Texas for their business reasons.
After completing the mission for the oil men, and murdering the one leader that
seemed to know how govern the people of Iraq, the Americans thought they could
just step aside and natural events would make a democratic and peaceful Iraq.
The defenseless Iraqi people were now put at the mercy of unscrupulous American
businessmen who turned the Iraqi war in to a perpetual money cow. After a dozen
years or so, the profitability of the Iraqi war was exhausted and the American
forces were withdrawn.
The right never seems to let an opportunity pass to criticize the President, do
they?It's almost like they're cheerleading for more
destruction and death to occur in Iraq, just to blame Obama.I have
an idea, if you really feel like Iraq is worth fighting for, sign up. Ryan, you
nearest army recruiting center is:U.S. Army Recruiting Station9045 S 1510 W, West Jordan, UTSee ya there!
Herriman -- That would Jason Chaffetz.Rather than pull
the same old, same old typical GOP response, and write endless letters and
radio talk shows compalining about the black Democrat in the WhioteHouse who was
elected there TWICE, day after day...Tell Jason Chaffetz your
concern.He is the only one Constitutionally authorized for you to
declare War.As a Military Veteran who's actually had the
courage to put skin in the game -- President Obama is doing the RIGHT
thing.If Iraq attacks us, then call me.
Maybe... just maybe, the case for Iraq wasn't just WMDs (as some people
pretend).Even IF we KNEW there were no WMDs (which we
didn't).... People inside Iraq were telling us they had them. Saddam said
he had them (was threatening to use them during Operation Desert Storm). His
top officials thought they had them. The UN inspectors were there to inspect
the facilities where they were making them (but were kicked out). We kinda had
to play it safe and take them at their word, and assume they had some weapons.
Heck... they had used them on the Kurds!...But regardless of
WMDs.... We still had a strong case for confronting Hussein. #1. On his
funding and encouraging terrorism, 2. mass murdering his own people, 3.
encouraging anti-American groups in the middle-east, 4. His plot to kill our
President, 5. His brutality to Kurds and Shiites in his country. It was MANY
factors (NOT JUST WMD).The current regime in Iraq makes the same
mistake as Hussain... Google "How were the Shias treated under
Saddam"... (no role in government, killed, their churches destroyed, their
people oppressed). We're right back where we started...
"The withdrawal will take place in two stages. The first stage will occur
next year, when Iraqi forces assume the lead for security operations in all
major population centers, while U.S. combat forces move out of Iraqi cities and
move into an overwatch role. After this transition has occurred, the drawdown of
American forces will continue to the second stage, with all U.S. forces
returning home from Iraq by the end of 2011."President George W
Bush in a radio address on December 6, 2008
If you want more military action, follow the guidelines set forth in the
Constitution.Write your congressman and urge them for a declaration
of war. It is their decision whether or not we commit troops; it is the
President's job then to lead the military, AFTER Congress has done
Democrats made a mistake supporting the war. They don't have to repeat it.
Democrats authorized the use of force based upon the evidence presented to them.
We later found out that evidence was manipulated and distorted by the Bush
administation. Also, let us not forget even though Congress authorized the use
of force it was Bush/Chenney that decided to use it. Most of the world and many
here in the country preached for patience and to let the UN inspectors finish
their work. Bush/Chenney did not want that and rushed us into a war, killing
and maiming hundreds of thousands. No matter how hard conservatives try to
rewrite history the facts are still there for all to see.
" rather than allow Obama to accept any blame for our withdrawal."You would do well to educate yourself Mr. Phillips. President Obama did
campaign on a promise to bring the troops home because the status of forces
agreement wasn't signed until December of 2008, a month after he was
elected President. Then he simply followed what Bush had outlined. The whole idea that withdrawal was a mistake is the height of hubris and
ignorance of the uninformed. In fact even some of the most ardent war
supporters are now going woops. Remember the week long chalk board
lecture by Glenn Beck on why the war and our efforts were not only correct but
righteous because of the world wide caliphate? Now even he knows you can't
create artificial countries out of tribes that have been at war for centuries
and then say and by the way just govern yourself like we do.
In my view Mr. Obama is making the best of the current situation. There are many
options available, but the only one that would satisfy most Republicans is more
Half truths make a pretty good case when they reinforce what you want to
believe.President Obama only had to emphasize bringing the troops
home -- on Bush's schedule -- because War Crazy McCain and Palin wanted to
keep trying to win in Iraq.After all, we lost the heart out of our
own economy and many thousands of lives trying to prove that we could change in
a year or two, people who had 5000 years of grievances, tribalism, and wars.I missed the DN article telling the people of Utah that Haliburton, Dick
Cheney's company, took in $39 billion dollars from those oil wars.