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Peavler: Does a scheduling agreement with the Big 12 make sense for BYU?

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  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    June 23, 2014 2:53 p.m.

    If we're going to continue to talk "college enrollment" on this thread, at least one clarification should be made. If Utah has a pool of 3 million applicants because that is how many Utah residents there are (does no one from AZ or ID apply to the U?), than BYU's pool should not be 15 million, because 1) not all those LDS members are active, 2) more than half of those live outside the U.S., 3) most members of the church are not potential college applicants, 4) BYU does attract several (like 17) non-members to their campus, and 5) with higher admission standards many choose not to apply to BYU (knowing they will not get in).

    I think a fairer comparison would be the actual number of applicants to each school. Utah is in the 9-10k range and BYU is in the 12-13k range. I think it's pretty incredible that both schools have so many applicants, the state of Utah will probably need to create/support another university within the next decade or so.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    June 23, 2014 2:17 p.m.

    @ Duckhunter

    I'm not sure you know what you're trying to argue. Acceptance rates between the two schools has nothing to with which city is preferable to live in. As Navel pointed out, BYU has a pool if 15 million people, Utah has a pool of a few million. It's not a mystery to why BYU has higher enrollment standards and all that. However, it has everything to do with the culture of the school, not because Provo is a great place to live.

    Wisconsincoug did an excellent job punching hole in your online polls argument. I will just add that you can find anything you want while searching on Google. Of course "Provo Best" will yield results that mention Provo as the best place to live. You could probably do the same with any city. I went with a generic, and unbiased, "Best place to live", and Provo was nowhere to be seen. Also, it should be mentioned that search results are often partially based on browser history, so we may have different results, even if we google the exact same thing.

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    June 23, 2014 1:37 p.m.

    follow-up to Naval Vet. You make a fair point about BYU's applicant pool being larger than Utah's but that doesn't change the accepted to enrolled percentage. It does explain why more people apply to BYU and why many of the applicants are out-of-staters. It does not even remotely suggest that those who grew up in Utah more readily chose Utah over BYU. While I would not be surprised if that were true for applicants from Salt Lake valley there is no actual evidence to back that claim, while there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    June 23, 2014 1:32 p.m.

    Naval Vet, I agree that Utah is far more competitive (admissions-wise) than UVU, but to even hint it is on par with BYU seems "frantic and emotional" (there's your shout-out). Of course you have never met a Ute who admitted BYU was their first choice... I likewise have never met a Cougar who was dead-set on going to Utah. No one will readily admit to that (even to themselves). But the facts don't lie.

    Acceptance rate: BYU 55% of 12,557, Utah 83% of 9,545
    GPA and ACT of incoming students: BYU 3.81 and 28.2, Utah 3.59 and 24. (I agree these don't matter later on, but they absolutely matter in making a choice for where to attend college).

    And of course the statistic that actually matters in this conversation...
    % of accepted students that enroll: BYU 78%(top 3 in the country), Utah 39%

    So "the truth" is that far more students want to go to BYU than Utah and a reasonable assumption (based in statistical fact) is that BYU was the first choice for most that apply to both BYU and the U. Looking forward to your spin.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    June 23, 2014 1:03 p.m.

    Duckhunter (cont.):

    The Y's student body is overwhelmingly LDS. Over 98% of them. And nearly 70% of the Y's student body population hails from outside of Utah. But that doesn't matter since the Y doesn't penalize students for being "out of state" like the U and USU do. Out-of-state tuition can be a prohibitive disincentive to attend a particular school. When I was at the Y, a lot of fellow students opted to attend because of the LDS culture, but that doesn't mean every LDS person wants to be part of the Y's LDS culture. The Y is an "extreme" LDS culture; one that is far too conservative for some other LDS folks.

    Additionally, the Y's applicant pool is larger than the U's because the Y's pool is "LDS members", whereas the U's is largely "Utah residents". The LDS church has over 15 million members. The state of Utah has under 3 million residents.

    And finally, folks like you who are obsessed with high school transcripts and ACT scores just don't get it. Nobody cares what those were after graduating from college.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    June 23, 2014 12:53 p.m.

    Duckhunter (cont.):

    On the other hand, every one of the UVCC students I'd met while attending the Y, while living in off campus housing (Glenwood Apts) -- EVERY ONE (and there were many) -- decided to attend the Orem campus because they applied to, and did not obtain admission to, the Y, but wanted to live in the Y's culture. Additionally, every one of their ultimate goals was to eventually transfer to the Y.

    Make no mistake...it's UVU -- not the U (or USU for that matter) that scoops up the lion's share of all of the Y's rejects. It's the arrogance of the typical coug that prevents them from seeing that not everyone wants to go to the Y. I wouldn't doubt that everyone were being completely honest with themselves, the bulk of Utah's and USU's student body chose the U and the USU as their 1st choice of in-state institutions.

    (cont...)

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    June 23, 2014 12:44 p.m.

    Duckhunter:

    "...the truth is every single student that attends BYU or UVU could have gone to the university of utah if they had wanted to, they would have been accepted."

    Actually, "the truth is" that isn't the truth. For starters, not every UVU student could have obtained admission to the U. UVU has an open admissions policy. Moreover, while there are some U students who applied to, yet not granted admission to the Y, neither of us really knows what the percentage of U students are who fell into that category. When I was at the U, I'd met several students who transferred to the U from the Y because they hated it...just like I did. And I'd also met many students with full ride academic scholarships to both universities, but opted to attend the U over the Y anyway. However, I never met a fellow student who claimed his first choice was the Y.

    (cont...)

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    June 23, 2014 11:45 a.m.

    Duckhunter, I'm not quite sure what the point of your argument with Naval Vet and Two For Flinching is, but let me assure you that students are not going to BYU because Provo is a good place to live. Most of the online poll you reference have to do with very specific life satisfaction metrics (place to start a business, outdoor opportunities, median income, etc), most of which have little or no direct impact on students.

    Provo is a nice place to live (as is SLC), but that is a separate argument from the one you are winning. That more students want to go to BYU than Utah is an undeniable fact. However, the reasons for it more likely have to do with the LDS culture, the unique mission of BYU, athletic and academic superiority, etc. (not because it's a groovy place to live). Because more students want to attend BYU enrollment standards are higher resulting in a higher academic profile for undergraduates.

    Do athletes care about the graduate profile of their institution? Not usually, but it doesn't hurt. Utah has some outstanding graduate programs and they represent the state well.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 23, 2014 10:46 a.m.

    @2fer

    As far as Provo being o the lists of "best places", well you must have a very poor google function. Just one search of "Provo Best' brought up over 30 pages of lists Provo has made over the last few years of "best" places.

    Just this year they are #2 on the Outside Online poll, #1 for Forbes, #2 for Business Insider (to be fair SLC is #5 in that one but still lower than Provo) and going back over the last few years #10 in Kiplingers, #7 for MSN/Money, TOP 10 for CNN/Money, "BEST" for Triathletes, and the lists go on and on with many of them being #1 over the last 2 decades.

    Really it isn't even a debate as to which place independent publications rate better bewteen Provo and SLC.

    Now you may prefer slc and good for you, but that is not the prevailing opinion of the publications and organizations that make a business of rating such things nor is it the prevailing opionion of the majority of the students that wish to attend college in the state of Utah. Just the way it is.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 23, 2014 10:40 a.m.

    @2fer

    Actually the student argument is right on, you're just struggling to grasp it so let me help you.

    There are exactly zero students at BYU that were denied admittance to utah and went to BYU as their fallback. There are a lot of students at utah that were denied admittance to BYU and instead went to utah as their fallback.

    Now there are students at utah that neither applied for BYU or wanted to attend BYU, and there are probably even some students at utah that applied to, and were accepted by, both schools that decided to go to utah over BYU. But there aren't any at BYU that were denied entrance to utah and admitted to BYU so that means that far more wanted to attend BYU than utah. That is just simple logic.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 23, 2014 10:05 a.m.

    @naval

    I never said the size of the student body makes one school better, but the truth is every single student that attends BYU or UVU could have gone to the university of utah if they had wanted to, they would have been accepted. But we both know many of the students at the university of utah were denied entrance into BYU and had to settle for the university of utah instead. Not only that many of the students at UVU were also denied entry to BYU and could have then gone to utah but instead prefered to stay in Provo/Orem and attend UVU rather than go to slc and attend utah.

    In otherwords they prefered to live in Provo/orem and not SLC by more than double the numbers than cthose that chose to go to slc and utah.

    As for SLCC, well my son in law currently attends SLCC in the Occupational Therapy program but lives in Utah county. Neither he nor my daughter wanted anything to do with living in the sl valley and instead he choose to commute to his classes.

  • Jealous U Alpine, UT
    June 23, 2014 8:38 a.m.

    BleedCougarBlue

    4-5, 3-6, 2-7, with back-to-back losing, bowl less seasons tells you all you need to know about that mid-major up north.

    Of course they blame their record on SOS, but that refutes their previous claims that the Utes could compete with anybody.

    If you read between the lines, they're already dusting off another shelf in their hall of fame closet for another SOS trophy.

  • BleedCougarBlue Enid, OK
    June 23, 2014 8:19 a.m.

    Anyone else around here find it interesting that BYU is constantly called a, and I quote, "mid-major" by fans of a certain school that by THEIR record since getting into the PAC-12, they have solidly entrenched themselves as a, and I quote, "mid-major".

    Does the word "ironic" mean anything to them?

    Go Cougars!

  • WACPaddingOurSchedule pocatello, ID
    June 22, 2014 10:23 p.m.

    Duckhunter, who cares what a publication says about the best places to live.
    If someone likes where they are currently living, that's the best place to live for them.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    June 22, 2014 9:47 a.m.

    Two For Flinching:

    There are some additional flaws in Duckhunter's stretched logic. I know...big surprise there.

    (1) UVU's student population = 31,556 undergraduates. But the Y's full-time student population = 27,978 undergraduates and 2,065 graduates (total: 30,043). So would Duckhunter be suggesting that UVU is a better school than the Y? Afterall, it DOES have a 5% larger student body.

    (2) As you'd already pointed out, he's trying to stack 2 universities in WACistan to a single university in SLC. However, as far as student populations go, SLC has more than just the UofU's 24,840 undergrad and 7,548 grad (total: 32,388) students. SLCC brings another 30,112, and Westminster an additional 2,887. And of course Utah's 32.4K > the Y's 30K or UVU's 31.6K

    (3) Ducky's original (errant) argument that WACistan drawing twice as many students as SLC is proof that Provo > SLC. But if population justifies superiority...SLC is 64.9% more populous than Provo, SL County is 99.3% more populous than Utah County, and SLC metro is 116.5% more populous than Provo/Orem metro.

    Edge: Salt Lake City

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    June 21, 2014 10:15 p.m.

    @ Duckhunter

    The student argument is extremely poor, to say the least. More kids go to school in Provo/Orem because there are two schools. Utah has 32,000 and BYU has 34,000. Obviously not a significant difference.

    Which publications? A quick Google search found that Time, Business Week, and US News didn't include Provo on their best places to live lists. Interesting side note though, Liveability (the top result) did rank Provo number 17.....behind Salt Lake City which was number 8. Have fun in Tulsa.

    Also, for what it's worth. I don't think Provo is a backwater place. It is just boring. Painfully boring.

  • NightOwlAmerica SALEM, OR
    June 21, 2014 3:13 p.m.

    It would be good for BYU to be a football member only.
    Like Utah, they would benefit from an intact schedule each season. Only to have to arrange 3-4 OOC games.

    And also like Utah, BYU will find it tough to compete each week with quality opponents. There is a big difference between Oklahoma State and Idaho State.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 21, 2014 11:20 a.m.

    Oh and 2fer when was the last time Pullman/Moscow was rated as THE BEST place to live in the entire country by anyone let alone just about everyone that studies and makes such rankings?

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 21, 2014 11:19 a.m.

    @2fer

    Just because some other cities are worse it doesn't make slc good.

    You made the claim of "slc>Provo" but the truth is 4 times as many students refute that claim as do countless lists and publications that all laud Provo as THE BEST place to live in the entire country. That is right "THE BEST". slc doesn't make any of the lists.

    Tell me this if it really is "slc>Provo" then how come literally no one but some "frantic and emotional" utah "fans" actually agree with that? How come the students choosing between the two places and every single poll or publication that rates such things, all national and unbiased, rates Provo so far above slc that there is no comparison whatsoever?

    I know it is part of the utah "fan" narrative to try and pretend that Provo is this awful backwater filled with bigots and bumpkins but the actual facts simply prove otherwise.

    These are facts:

    Provo>slc as proclaimed by every single publication that rates such things.

    Provo>slc as decided by 4 times as many students that choose which place to attend school in.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 21, 2014 11:09 a.m.

    @ekute

    "You should take all of that and present it to the P5. Oh wait...holmoe and mendenhall already did that. lol."

    It's pretty obvious that "the P5" don't matter when it comes to such things. You utah "fans" act as if nothing can occur without the explicit approval of "the P5" when in fact "the P5" don't make a bit of difference when it comes to any of the things I listed.

    Evidence? Well my post is all the evidence needed. BYU did all of those things outside of "the P5" while utah was incapable of doing any of them while being inside "the P5".

    lol

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    June 21, 2014 5:32 a.m.

    Duckhunter
    Highland, UT

    @noperspective

    "Memberships to an athletically and academically elite conference"

    LOL! We are talking about a conference that has washington state, arizona, arizona state. oregon state, oregon, and utah in it. Nothing about any of those institutions is "academically elite".

    Continual denial of the high status of the University of Utah as U-Pac pointed out doesn't make your wishful thinking some kind of alternate reality. Utah was judged and found worthy to join the most elite group of schools in the country many of which hold a prominent status in the world (like Utah as U-Pac noted). Further, you obviously don't know much about the Arizona schools.

    Utah, not byu, was asked to join that elite group of schools. Accept that fact and move on.

  • MapleDon Springville, UT
    June 20, 2014 11:31 p.m.

    This is news and people are talking about it...in Utah. Not much interest elsewhere. And, no, the Big 12 isn't thinking it over because it isn't a win-win for them. BYU wants to be with the big conferences, not the other way around. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is.

    Big 12 members do not want to share their $220 million with BYU. Period. And they're happy with their current members and have no plan to expand. BYU does not bring enough to the table to make the conversation worthwhile.

    Next story...

  • VegasUte Las Vegas, NV
    June 20, 2014 4:34 p.m.

    LouisD:

    Are you seriously suggesting that BYU would earn a "gross payout" of $25 million for any bowl game? The BCS Championship game this year only paid out $18 million per team. Where are you coming up with your figures?

  • VegasUte Las Vegas, NV
    June 20, 2014 4:25 p.m.

    JDWVU
    Charleston, WV

    You say that there the Y would not play any team two years in a row, but you have them playing TCU twice in both years 2 and 4. Hmmmm .... are we talking football or basketball?

  • VegasUte Las Vegas, NV
    June 20, 2014 4:04 p.m.

    In all sincerity - I hope BYU can pull something off with the BIG 12. While I am in no way a BYU fan - at all - having BYU in a much better situation than they are in now only helps the state and the other programs. Face it - Savannah State at home in November is just embarrassing. A lot more BYU fans are coming around to the realization that independence is NOT the answer.

    Good luck! Work it out!

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 20, 2014 3:31 p.m.

    @noperspective

    "Memberships to an athletically and academically elite conference"

    LOL! We are talking about a conference that has washington state, arizona, arizona state. oregon state, oregon, and utah in it. Nothing about any of those institutions is "academically elite".

    LOL!

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    June 20, 2014 3:14 p.m.

    @ Duckhunter

    30,000 students live in the Pullman-Moscow area up North. Does that make it a better place to live than SLC, or do people just go there to get a degree and then leave?

    Also, you are dead wrong about SLC being a poor place to live or visit. If you think it's crowded and hard to park downtown then you need to get out of Utah country and visit a big city sometime. Downtown SLC is wonderful because compared to virtually every other big city (outside of maybe Seattle and Portland), it is very clean, safe, and it is incredibly easy to get around. Most things are in walking distance, and if not, there is a free train that will drop you off outside the door of wherever you need to go. Which is another solution to the paring, if you don't feel like using one of the 33,000 public parking spots provided downtown.

    To each his own, but it's a shame that you aren't able to enjoy Salt Lake City because it is a great city to live and work in.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    June 20, 2014 3:10 p.m.

    @Duckhunter

    @uteology

    Uh...Jamal Williams did chose Provo and BYU over not just utah and slc but also Oregon and Eugene among others. Usually if you are trying to make a ppint, even a false one as you just tried to do, you need to reference something that actually...you know....makes your point.

    --------------------

    First, look at your roster and count the number of African-Americans, if you can count the total on one hand, you are irrelevant.

    Second, I said "ask" Jamal Williams: "You can go to the regular schools, like BYU, somewhere that’s not really known about."

    "[Family/friends] wondered why he would choose to attend an LDS school in Utah...They like that I’m doing great things here and showing all of the high schoolers back home that you don’t have to go to the most popular school to have a big impact on the team. You can go to the regular schools, like BYU, somewhere that’s not really known about, and you can make a big impact."

    Source: Deseret News

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    June 20, 2014 2:55 p.m.

    LouisD "I first proposed a Bowl Agreement to Barry Trammel about two weeks ago... Trammel obviously liked it"

    Please read the Trammel articles. All articles talk about scheduling regular season games only. None of the articles talk about your idea (bowl agreements). Lafe Paevler, author of the article in the Deseret News interjected that it would be nice if BYU also got a bowl agreement. Peavler may like your idea, but Trammel is not discussing it.

  • xam Provo, UT
    June 20, 2014 1:57 p.m.

    Duckhunter said, "BYU football played in a bowl game this last season, and the season before, utah's did not"

    Duckhunter, why don't you tell us the SOS for BYU and Utah football for the past 2 seasons. And who won the head to head over the last 2 seasons? Care to include any of those relevant facts in your analysis?

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    June 20, 2014 1:37 p.m.

    PG #1 FAN
    Lindon, UT

    "Education? Please... what is the average ACT Score for an incoming Freahman to BYU and what is it for Utah? 28 to 23. Average GPA in High School."

    High school? Are you seriously bringing high school into the byu / Utah spitting contest? LOL! Memberships to an athletically and academically elite conference are, as you should now be aware, NOT simply handed out. As noted above, Pac-12 standards are well beyond the reach of byu so keep begging for the Big12.

    It was well worth the effort to find this comment from PG #1. Thanks again, U-Pac.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    June 20, 2014 1:25 p.m.

    U-PAC
    Rowlett, TX

    "Sir, the U is a PAC caliber school and ranks, in terms of academia and curricula, at a level that BYU will never be able to compete with."

    Props to you, U-Pac. Well said! The facts you cited are certainly on the radar of the Presidents and Chancellors of the Pac-10 and a key reason that the University of Utah was extended an invitation to the elite conference.

    As for byu, the Pac-12 is well beyond its reach. Sadly, byu and its fans create their own reality and will continue to claim superiority even while on their knees begging the Big12 to recognize them for...well...something.

    Go cougs!

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 20, 2014 1:25 p.m.

    @uteology

    Uh...Jamal Williams did chose Provo and BYU over not just utah and slc but also Oregon and Eugene among others. Usually if you are trying to make a ppint, even a false one as you just tried to do, you need to reference something that actually...you know....makes your point.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    June 20, 2014 12:53 p.m.

    Highland, UT

    @uteology and 2fer

    Well considering that almost no one is turned down on an application to utah, that utah has a smaller enrollment, that utah has less graduates, that utah take 1000's of students that were rejected by BYU but BYU doesn't take any that were rejected by utah, that BYU has more applicants than it can ever take, that utah has a falling enrollment and isn't even the largest public university in the state, and really I could go on and on but that is probably enough to prove the following point.

    More people want to attend BYU even though its entrance requirements are much more stringent.

    --------------

    Is BYU trying to get into the Ivy League, I thought this was about Big 12?

    I wasn't aware we were having a debate of scholars I thought it was about why student athletes would choose a school. Hence, I listed Utah produces MORE NFL talent AND provides a quality education in several nationally ranked programs of study.

    You need athletes, in particular African-American athletes, Salt Lake isn't a top destination of choice for such athletes but Provo is an afterthought (ask Jamal Williams).

  • 54-10 Salt Lake City, UT
    June 20, 2014 12:23 p.m.

    Duckhunter
    Highland, UT

    Where is Tulsa on your list of "Best Cities to live in" ?

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    June 20, 2014 11:37 a.m.

    These comments have become absolutely pathetic. Here's hoping that the Big12 leadership read every one of them to...you know...get to know byu and it's fans.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 20, 2014 11:12 a.m.

    @2fer

    In fact between Provo and Orem, where BYU and UVU are located, there are close to 70,000 students that have elected to live there and go to school. utah has what, around 20,000 in slc?

    when close to 4 times as many students elect to live in Provo instead of slc....well that say's plenty about what location is prefered by more people.

    The truth is slc is not a very nice place to live or visit. Sure it has some attractions but it is crowded, hard to get around, nowhere to park, filled with panhandlers, frankly I avoid it like the plague unless I have something very specific to do there most of which either involve business or church activities. Going up to the university of utah is a nightmare of no parking and hard to access.

    Sorry but on location the university of utah fails miserably in comparison to Provo. Unless you want bars I guess although getting a parking spot near any of those is pretty much a nightmare as well.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 20, 2014 11:07 a.m.

    In fact Provo is ranked in the top 10 of best places to live in the USA on almost every list or ranking you can find including #1 on many. Provo just finished 2nd in voting for best city and place to live in the entire country this past week beeting out every other city in America other than Duluth.

    I don't recall SLC being on ANY lists of "best" places let alone EVERY list.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    June 20, 2014 10:47 a.m.

    Getting a 5 game scheduling agreement would be tough. Instead, try to get a 2 game scheduling agreement from every P5 conference.

    That would put 10 P5 schools on the schedule, which would qualify BYU to call itself major. It would provide opponents from coast to coast, retaining the exposure BYU wants. Even if they could only get agreements from 4 conferences, eight P5-level games is better than any past/future BYU schedule.

  • LouisD Las Vegas, NV
    June 20, 2014 10:46 a.m.

    To Y Grad / Y Dad:

    I first proposed a Bowl Agreement to Barry Trammel about two weeks ago now and in much the same fashion as he has been discussing it. I found it interesting that he came out with three articles on the subject and spoken on at least two radio programs regarding it after that. I don't really care if he wishes to credit others. I do know the idea is a god one.

    I specifically proposed that one, two or three of the P-5 Conferences would be wise to establish a scheduling agreement with BYU. The payback is simple. After the usual $1 million cost to attend payment, BYU proportionally splits major bowl revenue with those P-5 Conferences 50-50 just like USC, Texas or Michigan would have to with their respective leagues. So if BYU has six regular season games (1xB1G, 2xPAC, 3xB12) games and earns a $25 million gross bowl payout, it gets $13 milion, splits $12 million ($2MM>B1g, $4MM>PAC and $6MM>B12). Those three conference might not field 2 BIG-Bowl Teams in a given year, but if BYU is the replacement, THEY AL WIN! SEC & ACC LOSE! Trammel obviously liked it.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    June 20, 2014 10:00 a.m.

    Duckhunter,
    You should take all of that and present it to the P5. Oh wait...holmoe and mendenhall already did that. lol.

  • xam Provo, UT
    June 20, 2014 9:14 a.m.

    @No playoff for U "If it's being a former national championship and Heisman Trophy winner, then BYU is relevant. Utah is not"

    NC happened 30 years ago and the Heisman happened 24 years ago. Maybe relevance has more to do with 2 BCS bowl wins and a trip to the College basketball National Championship game all within the last 16 years.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 20, 2014 8:52 a.m.

    @xam

    Well let's see....BYU football played in a bowl game this last season, and the season before, utah's did not...either season. BYU has bowl contracts all on its own, utah does not, in fact utah doesn't even go to bowl games. BYU's mens and womens basketball both played in the NCAA tourney this last year coming from the WCC, neither utah's teams played in it. In fact the BYU women's team went to the sweet 16. BYU's men's and womens volleyball both played in the NCAA tournemnt this last year, in fact BYU's mens team spent the entire season ranked in the top 5, some of it ranked #1, and played in the final 4. utah's volleyball went nowhere. And we could go on and on with just about every other sport.

    Actually playing in the post season is the first requirement for "relevence" and then doing something in the post season is the second. Since BYU's teams all played in the post season, and several actually won games in the post season, yet other than gymnastics none of utah's played in any post season anything...you get the picture.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 20, 2014 8:13 a.m.

    @uteology and 2fer

    Well considering that almost no one is turned down on an application to utah, that utah has a smaller enrollment, that utah has less graduates, that utah take 1000's of students that were rejected by BYU but BYU doesn't take any that were rejected by utah, that BYU has more applicants than it can ever take, that utah has a falling enrollment and isn't even the largest public university in the state, and really I could go on and on but that is probably enough to prove the following point.

    More people want to attend BYU even though its entrance requirements are much more stringent. That means more want to go to Provo than salt lake, more want a BYU degree than a utah degree, in otherwords more would prefer to live in Provo than slc and more would prefer to have a BYU education than a utah education.

    That really say's it all.

    LOL!

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    June 20, 2014 12:21 a.m.

    @ No playoff for U

    "If it's being a former national championship and Heisman Trophy winner"

    That is literally nobody's definition of relevance. If it was Yale, Army, and Princeton would all be considered power-house programs.

    @ panamadesnews

    I agree with you that BYU will do what it takes to play 6 games at home. I was just saying that a scheduling agreement, however unrealistic, would be a great thing for BYU.

  • PG #1 FAN Lindon, UT
    June 19, 2014 11:30 p.m.

    Education? Please... what is the average ACT Score for an incoming Freahman to BYU and what is it for Utah? 28 to 23. Average GPA in High School. 3.8 to 3.4. I have never heard of anyone that got admitted to BYU but didn't get admitted to Utah as an incoming Freahman. How many that got rejection letters from BYU are at the U? Thousands every year. Utah is the fall back position for most kids that don't get into BYU. Maybe thats why there is so much venom from up North. Rejection is ugly but BYU has higher standards for students than Utah does. The academic requirements for the athletes at BYU can hamper recruiting efforts but, just like the honor code, it separates the players with the character and maturity required to succeed at BYU.

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    June 19, 2014 10:30 p.m.

    Duckhunter
    Highland, UT

    @2fer

    Yes that is the only thing, name one other thing utah has to offer that is anyway better than what BYU offers? Location? Nope. Quality education? No. LDS affiliation? Uh uh. Better legacy? Not a chance. Better facilities? Sorry, no. Bigger fanbase? Please. Better exposure on tv? Laughable

    -------------

    Let's ignore the fact that Utah puts MORE players into the NFL compared to BYU.

    Location? If the Jazz can't get top talent into Salt Lake, can't imagine Provo being a better destination.

    Quality of Education? U.S. News & World Report ranks SEVENTEEN programs at the THE University of Utah in the top 50. All I could find from BYU's own website was:

    #3 Accounting -Wall Street Journal
    #4 Entrepreneurship -Entrepreneur
    #5 Public Relations Program -PR Week Magazine
    #11/#34 Undergraduate business programs -Bloomberg/USNWR
    #16/#33 MBA -Forbes/USNWR
    #42 Law School -USNWR
    #59 Mechanical engineering specialty –USNWR

  • panamadesnews Lindon, UT
    June 19, 2014 9:06 p.m.

    re: Two For Flinching

    I believe that the So Miss game in 2015 will be rescheduled until 2017 (or later). It appears that So Miss rescheduled the 2014 game to 2016, as the date for that game is now a bye. Let's be patient. I would bet that BYU will end up with 6 home and 6 away games. And the date that is now scheduled for the So Miss game could even be one of the good top p-5 teams. I would think that Holmoe would not schedule 7 away games and only 5 home games. BYU doesn't need the $'s, but the fans do need the 6 games for sure.

  • No playoff for U Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 9:06 p.m.

    Elmer Fudd

    "There is only one team in college football that is relevant as an Independent."

    Depends on what your definition of relevant is.

    If it's being a former national championship and Heisman Trophy winner, then BYU is relevant. Utah is not.

    If it's being a perennial Top 25 team, then BYU is relevant. Utah is not.

    If it's simply having the "potential" of being invited to the playoffs, then BYU is just as relevant as Utah.

    Simply being in the PAC doesn't make Utah USC! And never will!

  • xam Provo, UT
    June 19, 2014 8:48 p.m.

    @ No playoff for U said, "Unlike the Utes, BYU doesn't need a conference to be relevant"

    So you're telling us that playing a schedule that includes Savannah State, Middle Tennessee, Cal, Nevada, UConn, Virginia and UNLV is relevance? Notre Dame doesn't play a schedule like that. I suppose you're also telling us that inclusion in the WCC in all other sports is further proof of BYU's relevance, right?

    Notre Dame is the only school that has made Independence work and even they are inching closer to becoming a full fledged member of the ACC.

  • Elmer Fudd Sandy, Utah
    June 19, 2014 8:08 p.m.

    No playoff for U

    "Unlike the Utes, BYU doesn't need a conference to be relevant"

    There is only one team in college football that is relevant as an Independent. That would be Notre Dame!

    Notre Dame is considered a power 5 opponent, has a scheduling agreement with the ACC, and has a bowl agreement with one of the New Year's six bowls (Orange Bowl). BYU does not!

    BYU is NOT Notre Dame! Never will be!

  • Uteology East Salt Lake City, Utah
    June 19, 2014 7:29 p.m.

    "In brief, Tramel believes a scheduling agreement would allow the Big 12 schools to get to know BYU better and vice versa."

    So true, just like PAC-12 got to know BYU when our officials were pelted with garbage by BYU fans after yet ANOTHER loss to THE University of Utah.

    Good thing Texas lost last year at LES.

  • Wiscougarfan River Falls, WI
    June 19, 2014 7:02 p.m.

    I know that there are anti-Utah trolls out there, but seriously... are there fans from any other team so delusional that they would claim something like "BYU and their fans dream of the P5, but will most likely be playing Big Sky teams or the likes for the majority of their games"? The irony of that statement is that since they entered the PAC12 in 2011 Utah has an annual game (their first of each season) against a Big Sky opponent. They narrowly escaped Weber State last year (it was something like 85-0). I'm so glad that I'm a cougarfan and don't have to spend my time agitating fans from any other school. Go Cougs!

  • No playoff for U Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 6:18 p.m.

    xam

    Unlike the Utes, BYU doesn't need a conference to be relevant.

  • xam Provo, UT
    June 19, 2014 5:24 p.m.

    @Duckhunter "BYU does not need schools far greater than itslef to prop it up and give it relevence"

    Going 0-4 against a P5 cellar dweller means you need some propping up. If the Y was so relevant then why are they still on the outside looking in in football and in the WCC in all other sports?

  • WA_Alum&Dad Marysville, WA
    June 19, 2014 5:18 p.m.

    @Lifelong Ute:
    Hey man, knock it off. I'm finding myself having respect for a Utah Fan!

    Seriously, Good stuff. I'd love to see more of it from both sides.

  • xam Provo, UT
    June 19, 2014 5:17 p.m.

    @Sports Are Great said, "funny that the values byu fans should uphold are pretty simple - kindness, honesty, charity.... to think that ute "fans" are arguing they should be immune from being held to such a standard because of color of their shirt"

    Ute fans are not trying to avoid behavior accountability. All Mormons (red or blue) have a responsibility to walk the talk. What you are missing is that the general population associates BYU with the LDS church. I have lived outside of Utah most of my life. When I tell people I graduated from the U rarely do they ask if I am Mormon. When I tell them my kids attend BYU they always ask if I'm Mormon. Like it or not, BYU has a stronger link to the LDS church than Utah does. If a Utah fan behaves badly, shame on them. There is a 50 percent chance they are LDS and the church takes a minor hit. If a BYU fan behaves badly, shame on them. There is a 99.9 percent chance they are LDS and the church takes a much bigger hit to it's image, missionary efforts etc.

  • Common-Tator Saint Paul, MN
    June 19, 2014 4:58 p.m.

    @ Solomon Levi

    In the case of one of my alma maters (Army), this year they have only two historical rivalry games, Air Force and Navy. The others (Buffalo, Stanford, Wake Forest, Yale, Ball St., Rice, Kent St., Connecticut, W. Kentucky, and Fordham) are all run of the mill. However, Army scheduling BYU makes about as much sense as scheduling Stanford -- not much of a game unless their program takes a big step forward. Then again, optimism is what drives many of us!

  • Ken Sandy, UT
    June 19, 2014 3:42 p.m.

    To Wookie - Count me as another Ute who's on Sports, Lifelong, and Duck(and that's saying something)position.

    "What I take issue with is the fact that some BYU fans/players do not realize that their words and deeds do in fact represent a faith"

    Yours do too, as do the words and deeds of every other Mormon Utah fan/player. Like me.

    "and the principles it espouses and will act afool"

    Don't we as Utah fans have great principles we espouse? Would we not claim our university espouses great principles? So why are you making this a Utah vs BYU issue. Its not.

    "From the moment I challenged him on his contentious behavior he has always pointed the finger back at Utah fans and their behavior"

    As you continue to point the finger at him and byu fans(that's hypocritical)

    "I have never defended or excused poor behavior of anyone, nor have I argued that we should not all act civil."

    Right, and the BYU fans are defending their poor behavior. Duck is focusing on Utah fans and you're focusing on byu fans.

    You two are good for each other.

  • Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WA
    June 19, 2014 3:23 p.m.

    Wookie

    Okay, I'll bite. Let us assume that indeed, BYU and it's athletes have a higher obligation to represent the church well, and shortcomings are grounds for discontinuing the athletic program.

    This, my friend, is a slippery slope, and you are close to an extreme end of it. You could pursue it further, and say that any public bad behavior is grounds for dismantling the university itself. Since BYU and it's students, mormon or not, cannot hope to be perfect, do away with it.

    You might actually like that.

    I propose that the good that is done by BYU athletics far outweighs the bad, and that is why it still continues, your complaints not withstanding. If you don't see it that way, the evidence would suggest that you don't see it the way the brethren do.

    Now when the discussion was held that we not "check our religion at the door," I propose that it DOES fall squarely on all BYU fans and athletes, but, as has been stated, mormon fans and athletes from anywhere else are not exempted.

  • Justmythoughts Provo, UT
    June 19, 2014 3:17 p.m.

    I like the idea! Do it!

  • Lifelong Ute Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 3:15 p.m.

    wookie

    "What I take issue with is the fact that some BYU fans/players do not realize that their words and deeds do in fact represent a faith "

    Your do too pal. Members of the LDS church represent the LDS church. This is not complicated. If you are an LDS person you represent the LDS church. Frankly its embarrassing you're singling out byu fans or students (of whom not all are even LDS) as representing the LDS church without recognizing that LDS church members(utes included) represent the LDS church. Lets not be hypocrites.

  • Lifelong Ute Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 3:10 p.m.

    wookie,

    No, you've been quite clear. You can tell the Provo boys how to act but no one can tell you how to act. That is hypocrisy. Don't get me wrong, I'm embarrassed when byu fans throw trash and act as they shouldn't. But it would be hypocritical of me to expect byu fans to act differently than I expect myself and other ute fans to act.

    As for your whole "much is given much is required" you must think that attending byu is the pinnacle of "being given"

    Have you not been given much?

    I've been given much as a member of the LDS church. I've been given much as a former student of the University of Utah. I've been given much due to my degree I earned at the U. Doesn't this mean much is expected of me? Sure does. Lets not be hypocrites and focus on others. Really, why don't you just include all fans in your admonishments? Its not as if you're precluded from calling out all bad fans and you had to pick one fan base. Lets be better than that.

  • Johnny Triumph American Fork, UT
    June 19, 2014 2:30 p.m.

    I grew up in Utah, spent a few years away, working, in Georgia and another in Denver (2000-2001). Of everyone I met in both places only the Florida State alumni I worked with in Georgia even brought up BYU. And that was because BYU was on the schedule that year. Everyone else I met first asked if 1) I was Mormon and 2) if I skiid. That's it. I'm sure the questions might be slightly different 14 years later but questions about BYU Football would be sparse still. For that matter, internationally I've mostly been asked about skiing and Moab. BYU isn't on the radar like people think.

    Having said that, in the football world BYU brings credibility even if the past decade hasn't been all that great. The BIG12 might be onto something to boost their lower tier schools' SOS by having them schedule BYU more often, thus pushing the better schools SOS up in the conference when they beat these lower schools. Doesn't sound like a dumb idea, and I'm sure ESPN can have influence there as well.

  • JDWVU Charleston, WV
    June 19, 2014 2:14 p.m.

    I am the WVU fan that propsed the scheduling alliance to Berry Tramel. I do not believe an outright option to be part of the B12's bowl lineup will ever be in the cards. That said, in a case where - such as last season - the B12 may not have enough bowl eligible teams to fulfill its commitments, I think BYU could be a candidate to be an alternate to fill a bowl for the B12 assuming the aforementioned were the case. A sample 4 year B12 schedule for BYU would be...
    Year 1: @ Texas, Oklahoma State, @ WVU, Kansas, @ Baylor
    Year 2: Oklahoma, @ TCU, Texas Tech, @ Kansas State, TCU
    Year 3: Texas, @ Oklahoma State, WVU, @ Kansas, Baylor
    Year 4: @ Oklahoma, TCU, @ Texas Tech, Kansas State, @ TCU

    Never the same B12 team 2 years in a row, which keeps the games fresh and interesting. Just football, no additional partnerships or memberships like Notre Dame in the ACC. I think that plan is one that the B12 could come around for.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 2:06 p.m.

    @ Duckhunter

    Location? SLC > Provo, and it's not close. Quality Education? Debatable. I've seen rankings that have Utah for above BYU. Facilities? Utah blows BYU away. I recently was given the opportunity to work out of BYU's training room, and it was laughable how far behind Utah's it was. On that same note, athletes at the U have unrestricted access to the best orthopedic doctors in the state through the UOC. Also, there is a great LDS culture on Utah's campus and the institute is extremely popular.

    I agree with your point that the PAC-12 is a huge draw for recruits, but it's silly to pretend that Utah doesn't have any merit on it's own.

  • Little Pete South Jordan, UT
    June 19, 2014 2:06 p.m.

    "You're my little brother" "Well I'm bigger than you" "That's just because your hair stands off your head taller" "Well I get better grades than you" blah blah blah.

  • Little Pete South Jordan, UT
    June 19, 2014 1:41 p.m.

    "My dad can beat up your dad." "Well my brother can beat up your dad." "My uncle could beat up your brother"......sound familiar

  • ekute Layton, UT
    June 19, 2014 1:39 p.m.

    Duckhunter,
    Utah's winning record vs byu football didn't start when Utah joined the PAC 12.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 1:34 p.m.

    Duck,

    You seem to think the LDS kids are the key to our future - they're not. In fact, we're moving more and more away from having LDS kids make up the bulk of our program.

    There will always be a handful we want, but more and more we're going after kids in Texas, California, and other hot beds. You can keep the majority of the LDS kids, we're not that interested. A team full of Utah boys isn't going to lead us to Pac 12 titles. And that's why they are becoming fewer and fewer on our team.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    June 19, 2014 1:24 p.m.

    Duckhunter:

    Utah had been outrecruiting the Y since 2008. That's BEFORE we joined the very elite conference you all had been pretending to have been in secret negotiations with since at least the 1980s. So as far as recruits go, even IF the Y succeeds in their pipedream of affiliation with, or all out membership in, the Big 12, Utah would still most likely outrecruit them. But good luck "pretending" you'd finally overtake us. That "make believe" world is really all you've got. Afterall, the Big 12 had "Fully Rejected" you so many times, some of us are starting to lose count. Let's see now...you were "Fully Rejected" in 1995, and again in 2010, 2011, and 2014. So that's 4. Does anybody remember if the the cougars were also "Fully Rejected" in 2012 and/or 2013, or was it just those 4 times?

  • Wookie Omaha, NE
    June 19, 2014 1:21 p.m.

    Lifelong, Duck, and Sports are Great:

    You fail to cognitively recognize what I am conveying. It is simple and I will try to simplify it even further. First, I have never excused Utah fans behavior, let alone Utah fans who are LDS. This has never been my platform, so Duck you need to get off of your hypocrisy statements. Second, I have, and I will stand my position as I have lived outside of Utah most of my life, BYU is the school that people outside of the state of Utah see as representative of the LDS faith and NOT the University of Utah. Third, I have constantly emphasized that where much is given much is required, and those BYU students, which I was at one time, who are blessed to attend this prestigious university need to and have an obligation to represent their faith (see #1 before you comment about Utah fans). Finally, and I agree, all people of all backgrounds have an obligation to act and behave in a civil and peaceful manner, I have never said that they don't, so again, any hypocrisy argument lacks merit or reason.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 19, 2014 1:17 p.m.

    @2fer

    Yes that is the only thing, name one other thing utah has to offer that is anyway better than what BYU offers? Location? Nope. Quality education? No. LDS affiliation? Uh uh. Better legacy? Not a chance. Better facilities? Sorry, no. Bigger fanbase? Please. Better exposure on tv? Laughable.

    Look I'm not saying some kids might not prefer utah over BYU but the pac12 thing is really the big draw. Previous to that utah almost never out recruited BYU for instate or LDS recruits, it simply never happened other than on rare occasions. If that one advantage disappears it will return to BYU dominating for those recruits instead of the semi closeness there is now.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    June 19, 2014 1:10 p.m.

    "Gotta luv how our little friends from the north are panic stricken every time another article on BYU to the Big 12 comes out."

    I have to laugh whenever some panic stricken Y fan tries to project their fear of being left out of the field of relevancy onto Ute fans. I mean seriously....what do WE have to panic about? WE'RE already IN a Power 5 league. YOU guys are the ones whose own head coach was practically on his KNEES....BEGGING the Big 12 to look their way. And then, a couple of days later, the Big 12 came out and said they weren't interested in expanding. And the only reason why they said that was because they wanted to make it clear -- to the Y specifically -- that after all these years, they still weren't wanted. And that explains YOUR panic; not OURs. We're good, all comfortably nestled into the Power 5's top revenue conference.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 1:05 p.m.

    @ Duckhunter

    "ute "fans" are definitely suffering over this. The fact is utah has only one thing they can try to hold over BYU and that is that they are in the PAC12."

    Is that really the only thing? Allow me to remind you: 4 in a row. 9 of the last 12.

    As for recruiting. It's a minor concern. The two schools don't go head to head over "that" many athletes.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 12:54 p.m.

    @ Steven S Jarvis

    "BYU is a major program that brings relevancy to the table, not a mid major program that happens to play in a major conference such as Utah."

    Comments like this are just sad, and they reek of jealousy. 4 in a row. 9 of 12. I will never understand claiming superiority to a team that you haven't even held a lead on since 2011.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 12:48 p.m.

    @ Brio

    Conf. wins matter. Wins over BYU really do not in the whole scheme of things.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 19, 2014 12:34 p.m.

    Now the reasons why utah "fans" fear this is a whole nother subject. For one the only thing utah has to offer recruits that is even a remote advantage over BYU is its membership in the pac12, especially LDS athletes. Without that claim there is barely a quality LDS athlete that would even consider utah over BYU and if BYU were to get an alignment or a membership with an equivalent conference then utah would have nothing to offer thos athletes.

    utah has already proven it cannot compete with the top schools in the pac12, or in any "power" conference for that matter, for top recruits, the only thing it can possibly hope to have an advantage for is LDS recruits and even then they have to fight, and generally lose, to BYU for these kids. If BYU gains this sort of alliance then that small scrap utah has to offer disappears completely and that frightens utah "fans" to the point of suicidal tendencies. That is why they become so "frantic and emotional" when the subject is brought up, especially when it is brought up nationally.

    This possibility is a nightmare for utah "fans".

  • Lifelong Ute Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 12:30 p.m.

    @wookie

    I'll add that if you've ever lived outside the Utah bubble, you'll know that people equate Utah with the LDS church. So like it or not, what University of Utah fans do and say very much will be linked directly or indirectly in others minds to Mormons.

    For me, its sad you bring this argument up day after day(yes we've all noticed you are obsessed with it). This goes way past any religion though. I want our university to be the classiest in the country. I want us to be known as having the best fans. I want us to be the best football team. I want to be respected and to respect others. We wont get there by cowering away from responsibility and deflecting elsewhere. All people everywhere, religious or not, sports fans or not, Utahs or not, should be great people. Being a good person is hardly solely a religious concept. Lets not be hypocrites. Playing the religion card to demand of others what we don't demand of ourselves(and other Utah fans) is pathetic. We're better than that.

    Go Utes!

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    June 19, 2014 12:26 p.m.

    ute "fans" are definitely suffering over this. The fact is utah has only one thing they can try to hold over BYU and that is that they are in the PAC12. utah "fans" cling to that one shread of relevence and lash out at any suggestion that BYU may be attractive to a conference.

    Personally I like independence and would prefer BYU stayed independent if they could somehow work out some improved access to the bigger bowls and the playoffs. If they could get some sort of scheduling agreement that would help them to do that then that would be my wish, increased access but maintain independence.

    BYU does not need schools far greater than itslef to prop it up and give it relevence, it has those things all on its own. But it has become apparent that it does need a way to improve some of its scheduling and its post season tie ins and perhaps something like this can do it for them while maintaining a course all its own.

    But the absolute fear that puts into utah "fans" is hilarious to behold. lol

  • Lifelong Ute Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 12:19 p.m.

    @Wookie and Sports are Great:

    I'm a lifelong Ute and lifelong LDS member, proud of both. And I agree with @Sports are Great. Wookie, regardless of whether you belong to the LDS church or not, it doesn't change my stance. If you are LDS, you'll know we should take seriously our obligations and promises we've made. An external affiliation to a particular sports team impacts those promises and responsibilities NONE. I'm embarrassed when other LDS members think their duty to do what is right is diminished when they are cheering for our team and expect the boys in Provo to do what they don't expect it of themselves or others great Ute supporters.

    Duckhunter is harsh, but I agree with him. Lets not be hypocrites. We can and should act just as we expect the Provo boys to act.

  • redthunder Ogden, UT
    June 19, 2014 12:07 p.m.

    Give it a rest DNews...

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 12:01 p.m.

    Rose Bowl call yet?
    Salt Lake City, UT

    "Gotta luv how our little friends from the north are panic stricken every time another article on BYU to the Big 12 comes out."

    Panic stricken? It is so much fun watching you people go around and around. You don't like independence, you feel entitled to be in a conference you haven't earned. Mendenahall is begging, byu fans are begging, Holmoe is no where to be found.

    As I said above...wildly entertaining but you can call it what you want.

    btw...I see that Trammel received his 15 minutes of fame with a byu student run radio show. Mission accomplished. LOL!

  • Silent Lurker Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 19, 2014 11:48 a.m.

    @ S S Jarvis

    Have you ever considered the fact that some teams of the P5 are at the bottom of their conference because they are playing the good teams in their conference week after week? They are not padding their schedule with six or seven gimme games each season like BYU. You want to brag about BYU record against Texas and Oklahoma without mentioning their overall record against P5 teams, Why?

  • Brio Alpine, UT
    June 19, 2014 11:33 a.m.

    @ ekute:

    You seem to have forgotten that Utah soon added BYU back on it's schedule when it realized it was a mistake to have dropped them in the first place. They certainly wouldn't have added them back on if playing them was insignificant. Obviously, it's not.

    You claim that...

    "You (me) and your (my) friends been telling us (Ute fans) that beating a bunch of patsies and playing in a meaningless bowl is more important than losing to the Utes."

    When did I say such a thing? Please provide even a shred of evidence. You can't. Because I know for an absolute fact I've never said anything close to your statement nor have any of my friends... as if you even know who any of them actually are. You don't.

    You are obviously once again making things up just to stir the pot or to try to make your irrelevant stance appear to be relevant. Sorry to break the news to you, but it hasn't been for a very long time... ever since you quit using facts in your comments.

    Next time, stick to using facts or risk losing even more credibility.

  • MyPerspective Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 11:32 a.m.

    The comments on this thread are interesting. Excitement over the immanent agreement with the Big12 builds as more comments are posted. LOL!

    Naval Vet
    Philadelphia, PA

    "I have to laugh at the tone of this article. It's as if Peavler is trying to convince cougar fans that this would be the way to go, when the truth is, it isn't the cougar fans that need convincing. It's the Big 12. The choice isn't the Y's to make. It's the Big 12's."

    byu fans always do this. For 30 years they talked like their invite to the Pac-12 was immanent.

    It has certainly become clear over the last 2-3 weeks that byu fans do not care about independence. They want what their neighbors to the North have. To your point, Naval Vet, Utah's invite to the Pac-12 was accompanied with stories (some rumored) as private meetings were held and events unfolded. byu's way is the complete opposite...create the story then (they hope) the invite will come. However, these comments are starting to read like the invite is in the bag...typical. LOL!

    Watching byu and its fans beg is wildly entertaining!

    Go cougs!

  • Sports Are Great Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 11:31 a.m.

    wookie - I've made no assumption that anyone wearing red is a Mormon. I've only commented that Mormon ute "fans" represent the church. Again, I've yet to hear a church leader say church members represent the church unless they put on their red shirt. I'm ashamed of Mormon ute "fans" who think they don't represent our church. They do. My beef with ute "fans" especially Mormon utes is they think the color of their shirt shields them from responsibility to do what is right. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Wrong doesn't suddenly become right when a person wearing a red shirt does it. Even for a non-religious person. It is funny though that the values that byu fans should uphold at the end of the day are pretty simple - kindness, honesty, charity, all that good stuff. And to think that ute "fans" are arguing they should be immune from such being held to such a standard because of color of their shirt.

  • regis Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 11:19 a.m.

    BYU would definitely benefit from this type of agreement with the Big 12. Whether the Big 12 would benefit is at least debatable.

  • Rose Bowl call yet? Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 11:14 a.m.

    Gotta luv how our little friends from the north are panic stricken every time another article on BYU to the Big 12 comes out.

    Eventually, the Big 12 will decide that it's time to expand or add more strength to the OOC SOS; when that happens, BYU will be one of the top candidates on their list.

    Meanwhile Utah fans, slap another PAC 12 sticker on something if it helps you feel better about the prospects of suffering your third straight losing, bowl less season.

  • Steven S Jarvis Orem, UT
    June 19, 2014 11:03 a.m.

    @hedgie

    "Again I ask, what is the value to committ to something that will always be there?

    Makes no sense"

    I DARE you to say that exact thing to your girlfriend/boyfirend/hubby/wife or significant other.

    Commitment would be beneficial to the whole scheduling thing for both the B12 and to BYU in a similar way that the PAC12 has need of BYU due to Stanford/USC's agreements to play ND in November. Bonuses happen in the SOS department, attendance goes up and so does exposure. That doesn't happen when teams play small schools like North Texas or Utah.

    The downside is that BYU has done well against B12 teams lately. They are 5-1 against Texas and Oklahoma lifetime. That number hopefully improves to 6-1 this year.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    June 19, 2014 10:54 a.m.

    They could easily win most of the big 10 games. Then they would get invited with Espn contracts and HD trucks the Big 12 teams would make way more money but loose another game every year.

  • Steven S Jarvis Orem, UT
    June 19, 2014 10:41 a.m.

    BYU is a major program that brings relevancy to the table, not a mid major program that happens to play in a major conference such as Utah. A scheduling agreement makes sense to the B-12 if the SOS improves enough to keep them ahead of one of the other conferences for a slot in the playoffs. Most years BYU falls in the 30s or low 40s. That sure beats playing against most of the small school programs at the bottom of the P5. Its equal to or better than most middle of the pack teams.

    I WANT to see the Cougars play Army too. We have never played Army and I still believe they are looking for a game in 2016 at a major league ballpark. Still looking forward to the next game against ND being announced.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    June 19, 2014 10:32 a.m.

    I also have to laugh that Trammel would take the word of David C. Moore, as though he had his finger on the pulse of cougar athletics. He'd been trying to pass off that bogus fairy tale about Boyd K. Packer for at least 4-yrs now, and even some COUGAR fans don't buy it. David C. Moore had been challenged multiple times to back up his claim, and every time he'd failed. And if there were even an OUNCE of validity to his made up version of events, why hadn't any journalists investigated it? I mean it's been at least 4-yrs now, and STILL nothing to substantiate that tale.

    Must be because it isn't true.

    And Trammel bought it?

    How naïve.

  • Wookie Omaha, NE
    June 19, 2014 10:31 a.m.

    Sports Are Great:

    So you are saying you thrive on contention? Also, you are assuming that those who wear red are also of the faith that BYU represents? This is my beef with a small group of BYU fans/players. This small group of BYU fans/players like to present to the world that their sports are a missonary tool, yet in their own backyard they act afool and assume that the U, its fans and players are LDS. A select few are contentious, judgmental, ignorant and assuming. They should not worry about the U and should act as they have been directed which is to represent their faith at all times without assumptions. I am by no means excusing those U fans who hide under the cloak of their school color and are also members of the LDS faith, as they know better, but the U is a secular school and to the world they represent the state of Utah. As for BYU, they are a religious school and represent a faith.

    Go UTES!!

  • ekute Layton, UT
    June 19, 2014 10:27 a.m.

    Brio,
    Is playing and beating byu significant for the Utes? Well, we took you off our schedule.

    Is playing Utah important to the cougars? How long have you and your friends been telling us that beating a bunch of patsies and playing in a meaningless bowl is more important than losing to the Utes.

  • Naval Vet Philadelphia, PA
    June 19, 2014 10:27 a.m.

    "So, does it make sense for both BYU and the Big 12 to come to some sort of scheduling agreement?...So, how would this help BYU? While not perfect, BYU is doing a good job scheduling as an independent. The Cougars wouldn't need to rely on such an agreement to create solid schedules."

    I have to laugh at the tone of this article. It's as if Peavler is trying to convince cougar fans that this would be the way to go, when the truth is, it isn't the cougar fans that need convincing. It's the Big 12. The choice isn't the Y's to make. It's the Big 12's. And if, as Trammel said, the Big 12's OOC schedules lack sufficient "interesting games", I don't see how the Y would improve their situation. There's only 2 reasons why the Big 12 lacks "interesting games": (1) the teams scheduling them don't WANT an interesting game -- preferring instead a cupcake opponent, or (2) the teams CAN'T schedule one. And if the problem is #2, then aligning an entire conference with a "midmajor"....would be an enormous dent in that league's credibility.

  • hedgehog Ann Arbor, MI
    June 19, 2014 10:23 a.m.

    Why on earth would the BIG12 or PAC12 sign on to any schedule agreement??? Both conferences know they can schedule bYu anytime thy like...if they so chose. Byu will move, drop or kill most games on thier schedule to make it happen. and agree to a 2 for 1 or wors....whatever it takes.

    Again I ask, what is the value to committ to something that will always be there?

    Makes no sense

  • Bluedoo13 Sandy, UT
    June 19, 2014 10:13 a.m.

    Wookie: Football doesn't play on Sunday. That was an issue with the other sports but seeing as you missed this being a football only article, I will spell it out for you. Football doesn't play on Sunday and would not present issues to either side on that matter. Also, maybe I missed something, but BYU doesn't need a medical school to be considered for the B12. Not sure where you are getting your information? Must be interesting to see the world in red where you make up information and think it is accurate.

  • Sports Are Great Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 10:07 a.m.

    wookie, typical Ute "fan" who thinks that Mormons who wear blue have a responsibility to represent their church but Mormon ute "fans" who wear red don't.

    I've never heard such sentiment expressed by any church leader, but I'm sure they're wrong and you're right. I've always been taught that church members represent the church at all times and all places, without a qualifier of "unless you wear red" or "unless you are a ute 'fan'"

    The self righteousness on the hill these days is unbelievable. I love that byu bothers so many ute "fans" Their obsession with byu brings me great joy!

  • Brio Alpine, UT
    June 19, 2014 10:06 a.m.

    Another question...

    Why are so many Ute fans so concerned about what happens to BYU's sports programs?
    It's obviously a big deal from all the attention and comments they continue to give week after week and article after article.

    If Ute fans were smart and thought this through better, it would be more obvious that the more relevant BYU is made to be on the national scene, the more significant their wins (past and future) over BYU would be.

    But by continually trying to downplay BYU, they are also downplaying the significance their wins over BYU have. Obviously not a smart way to go.

    Why would anyone hurt themselves just to try to hurt someone else? And yet that is what many Ute fans continue doing on these weekly posts.

    Apparently, they would rather allow themselves (or their wins) to be marginalized in the process of downplaying their rival... than having both look programs look better... if it means that rival will somehow benefit.

    Makes no sense.

    Pride is causing those people to shoot themselves in the foot.

  • ekute Layton, UT
    June 19, 2014 9:43 a.m.

    The P5 are only interested in scheduling agreements with each other. Go Utes.

  • SoonerUte Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 9:34 a.m.

    A scheduling agreement with the PAC12 makes sense, more than one with the Big12. BYU should be repairing its relationship with the West.

    The biggest fantasy in the article:
    "ideal scheduling agreement would include access to the Big 12's bowl tie-ins." Thought to be deserved because Notre Dame has that with the ACC, and - as we all know - BYU is the Notre Dame of the West. Please!

    I hope BYU wouldn't demand bowl access as part of their well-known "difficult to deal with" style. If the Big12 doesn't want to expand and include BYU because that would mean less revenue per team, WHY would they want to share bowl revenue with BYU?

    Ute fans would LOVE to see "5 Big12 + 3 PAC12 + Boise". Right now, BYU fans are like a Jazz fan in the cheap seats yelling about a missed free throw. "Its easy! That's why their called free!"
    Its different when you're in "the game". BYU would struggle, just like UU and TCU did when they were called up to the majors.

  • Swiss Price, Utah
    June 19, 2014 9:21 a.m.

    Joining the Big 12 would serve one function. It would show Aa and ASU that they screwed up way back when the jumped to the PAC 10. They could have waited and had a V8. Big 14, nah, they have to settle for the PAC 10+2:0

  • Silent Lurker Cottonwood Heights, UT
    June 19, 2014 9:16 a.m.

    More blue cool-aid from a BYU fan/writer. The Big 12 doesn't need a scheduling agreement with BYU it really has very little up side for them. Why would say a school like OSU, ISU, Kansas, TTU, TCU, and West Virginia want to give a Big 12 bowl slot to a BYU team that only has to win two or three Big 12 games and six or seven second tier mid major games to be eligible? Why should the Big 12 want to have a scheduling agreement with a team that is begging to play them anyway? Why would the Big 12 want to share any of their TV revenue/exposure with BYU? If independence is so great why would BYU want a scheduling agreement? Could it be that ESPN has let BYU know that they will not renew a BYU contract without some hope of having a quality opponent rather than most of BYU's pathetic schedule? In the new era of college football strength of schedule counts. It also counts for TV viewers and ESPN knows it. I guess BYU vs. nobody U football is better than a rerun of poker or pool as filler material.

  • Brio Alpine, UT
    June 19, 2014 9:15 a.m.

    The simple fact that "BYU possibly joining the Big12" continues to be a hot topic around the national sports world says a lot about how relevant and significant BYU actually is in the overall scheme of things... much to the chagrin of some the local anti-BYU rivals.

    If BYU was just a mid-major, as some of those local anti-BYU people like to extol in their tirades, this topic wouldn't continue being such a hot topic. But it does.

    "Big 12 Call Yet" asks the question "And why would the Big 12 want to have a large agreement with a mid-major?

    Obvious answer: They wouldn't. If BYU wasn't considered a major player and upper-tier program in most of the sports world, this article and this discussion wouldn't even be taking place. But they are and so it is.

    Even if this conference marriage doesn't end up taking place, the national attention it's already garnered from just the possibility of it happening is worth a lot to BYU. It has solidified and verified the significance of BYU on the national scene.

  • Brave Sir Robin San Diego, CA
    June 19, 2014 8:56 a.m.

    This article epitomizes the "world revolves around BYU" attitude of BYU fans and their media lapdogs.

    "Does a scheduling agreement with the Big 12 make sense for BYU?" Of course it does. The real question that a real news outlet needs to ask is, does a scheduling agreement with BYU make sense for the Big 12? The answer is a resounding no. The Big 12 can schedule any mid-major any time they want.

    If the Big 12 wanted BYU, they would have invited BYU to join a few years ago when they had a million chances.

  • red.diehard Central, UT
    June 19, 2014 8:32 a.m.

    Yes, BYU can be the travel partner to West Virginia...invite coming soon. You do realize that this is a pipe dream of sports writer and not any university president nor even athletic director...right?

  • Big 12 Call Yet? Ogden, UT
    June 19, 2014 8:31 a.m.

    LOL.

    Of course it does.

    But who cares what makes sense for byu?

    Its what makes sense for the Big 12 that matters.

    And why would the Big 12 would to have a large agreement with a mid-major?

    The Big 12 can go get any mid major they want, whenever they want

  • Spokane Ute Spokane, WA
    June 19, 2014 8:30 a.m.

    Y Grad / Y Dad

    I believe it all comes down to how many Big 12 teams reach 6 wins. Most years they fill the slots, but some years they don't. It seems like every year there is at least one conference that can't fill there spots. The down side is that the bowls they can't fill are the low tier ones. Hope all is well guy!

  • BlueHusky Mission Viejo, CA
    June 19, 2014 8:14 a.m.

    I love this idea. There is no downside that I can see, for B12 or BYU.

    BYU brings 4 or 5 ESPN games to teams seldom on TV. BYU brings a great venue to B12 visitors. And BYU bring a stronger SOS (usually) to the games. Sure they can beat you, but this seems like a no-brainer for B12. Literally, how much more $$$ would BYU vs Oklahoma State bring vs OSU versus North Texas?

    For BYU, it opens up a whole new region in which to recruit. For B12, it would be worth a million or or, I'd guess.

    Lets do this.

  • sammyg Springville, UT
    June 19, 2014 7:39 a.m.

    More media attention anyone? Say it isn't so.

    What has Bronco started now? Obviously, he's part of a BYU media mastermind group. After all, BYU does have an international TV presence. Does that count as national as well?

    Seems like the frequency of these articles is gaining a little more momentum each passing week. Another sad day for the 'local kids' on the public access channel at East High.

    Better schedule, better games, conference tie, or even a conference membership coming soon.

    I love my little church school insignificant independent conference membership!

  • BleedCougarBlue Enid, OK
    June 19, 2014 6:48 a.m.

    @ Johnny Moser - Thayne, WY - "Still not sure why BYU doesn't have a game series with Army. That can't be so hard to pull off."

    In my opinion, I don't think playing Army on a regular basis does anything for BYU. In case you haven't noticed, Army isn't such a hot team. Playing them does nothing but give an almost guaranteed win for BYU and Holmoe is trying to get us on to the big stage permanently. Army doesn't do that. Navy is one step above the Army, it seems, but even that isn't quite the directio we want to go.

  • BleedCougarBlue Enid, OK
    June 19, 2014 6:44 a.m.

    Article quote: "So, does it make sense for both BYU and the Big 12 to come to some sort of scheduling agreement? Tramel lists two main reasons in his latest article why such an agreement would be good for both parties. In brief, Tramel believes a scheduling agreement would allow the Big 12 schools to get to know BYU better and vice versa. Tramel even compared this to "dating and marriage" in his interview with BYU Sports Nation. Second, Tramel states it would give the Big 12 better games."

    Did you catch that?

    "Better" games.

    Ha! Ha! 99% of Utah fans would try to have outsiders believe that BYU couldn't beat half the junior high teams in the valley.

    Oh, well....let 'em believe what they want.

    Go Cougars!

  • zachbrwn new york, NY
    June 19, 2014 6:14 a.m.

    Liked the article about scheduling games with the Big 12, it would benefit both parties. What disturbs me is the Utah source basically saying that Boyd K Packer was one of the reasons BYU didn't want the Big 12, or athletics on church owned properties. Hope the source was wrong.

  • Solomon Levi Alpine, UT
    June 19, 2014 6:10 a.m.

    Johnny Moser

    "Still not sure why BYU doesn't have a game series with Army. That can't be so hard to pull off."

    Actually, that would be much harder to pull off than you might imagine.

    The service academies are loaded with "traditions" that leave little room for adding new opponents.

  • Two For Flinching Salt Lake City, UT
    June 19, 2014 12:57 a.m.

    "The Cougars wouldn't need to rely on such an agreement to create solid schedules. Just look at the 2015 schedule with games against Nebraska, Michigan and UCLA"

    Playing Nebraska, UM, and UCLA is nice but it's only thee games, all of which are on the road. The rest of the 2015 schedule isn't that impressive, not to mention BYU has 5 home games scheduled and 7 on the road. A scheduling agreement would be huge for BYU because it would help stabilize the schedule and it would help bring quality teams into LES on a regular basis. Not to mention, it would be the first step to becoming a full member of a P5 conference.

  • Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WA
    June 18, 2014 10:33 p.m.

    cont.

    So should BYU spend some of it's ESPN revenue to gain a slightly better schedule and an all-important foot in the P-5 door? Seems like a good deal if you can get it, with or without bowl tie in.

  • Johnny Moser Thayne, WY
    June 18, 2014 10:33 p.m.

    Still not sure why BYU doesn't have a game series with Army. That can't be so hard to pull off.

  • Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WA
    June 18, 2014 10:33 p.m.

    Regarding Bowl Tie-ins, a big question (and I am unwilling to spend the time to research it) is did the Big 12 have more bowl tie-ins than bowl-eligible teams?

    Assuming the answer is yes, then BYU could secure one more bowl game for the good of the order. If BYU shared in the bowl tie-ins, one would assume they would also share in the bowl dividends. That MAY not net the conference any more money than holding pat.

    For BYU as well, a share of all bowl dividends may not equal all bowl revenues from even a lower bowl. Again, I am only hypothesising. Someone who really cares could look it up in a few minutes I'm sure.

    As for the season, I would think that BYU can bring more money and more exposure to the conference, and a scheduling agreement is like a pre-nup: if either party doesn't like it, don't renew it.

  • truth in all its forms henderson, NV
    June 18, 2014 10:32 p.m.

    if you cant beat them, join them oh wait...