Frozen Fractals- So you are advocating against small business yourself as you
state that people need Unions to get higher wages in order to not be dependent
on government and that there are no Unions in small business, so thusly small
business employees must be suffering due to lack of unions, so they must be bad.
And as you pointed out, Unions don't care about the people, only the
dues.Also when did GM and Chrysler become banks, as they were deemed
"too big to fail"?Esquire- It started under Bush, but look
who were the primary endorsers were, Democrats, including Obama. Most
Republicans opposed. GM went bankrupt anyways.LDS Liberal- Unions
come about now to make money. Employees were not killing themselves at VW in
Tennessee, but the Union tried to jump in and take some money. Unions tried to
force people who take care of sick loved ones in Michigan to join and pay dues.
Unions protect bad employees more than good ones, because they are the ones who
usually get fired. They protected Chrysler workers who were drinking and smoking
pot on their lunch. Maverick/Ultra- the Citizens United case
established businesses have Constitutional rights.
Where in the Constitution are business rights defined?If it
isn't in the Constitution then it doesn't exist. Stop perverting the
Constitution. The right loves to trample the constitution for big business to
steal the wealth of the working class.
No, Kora, Reagan and Capitalism played only very, very small roles in killing
the Soviet Union. Virtually all credit needs to be given where it belongs, with
a Polish Pope and a bunch of very courageous Polish, Czech, Hungarian and other
eastern European labor union members.You must be reading one of the
Texas Conservative Approved textbooks of American Revised History.
Kora, the bank bailout was under Bush. Talk to Henry Paulson if you don't
2 bits.Of all the words I have looked up in the dictionary, the word
"rights" has the greatest number of singularly different meanings. The
rights that individuals, businesses, or organizations have that they bought,
traded or stolen, are not the same things as the rights given to humans just by
being human. The rights that are created, traded and exchanged between
individuals or organizations apply only to particular specified entities and do
not extend to the generalized entity of that name. Further, all the
rights that we consider human rights, civil rights, and even God given rights
are provided for in our Constitution or in the code of law that is a further
amplification or limitation of our Constitution. The generalized
institution of "business" is not an entity itself, it is the system that
people in a society have chosen provide an orderly sharing of the benefits and
the liabilities of the society. The rules are not fixed and change as needed by
the society, although sometimes not as rapidly as they should.
I'm sorry -- I'm scratching my head, Googling the
Web, and I can not seem to find a SINGLE instance where a Union is keeping
a Small Business from forming, or failing.Not ONE!Unions
only come about when workers are killing themselves, and seeing the fruits
of their labors going to a few who do nothing.They Organize, and together go out on strike - [i.e., stop doing the producing], until
they get a better share of what they have done.Unions are people.But Republicans think only Boards of Corporation are the only entities
allowed to be considered "people".
So the next time a business pollutes a river, sells an (unknown to the public)
unsafe product, or otherwise damages society in a whole host of ways any history
book covering the industrial revolution will show, your solution is to simply
stop buying their products?OK, I guess it can work in theory
assuming this buying boycott can overcome their false advertising budget or (in
the case of the river) play on whatever shred of humanity they may have left.This may not work in all (or even most) cases given a couple simple
truisms.1st, as most modern business schools will tell you,
businesses exist for one purpose – to increase shareholder value. I
don’t recall ever hearing anything about rivers.2nd, as Upton
Sinclair pointed out during the Gilded Age – “it is difficult to get
a man to understand something (like his product might be harmful) when his
salary depends on his not understanding it.”
@UltraRe: "There are no such things as business rights"....
Well, that's not totally true. Businesses have rights.
That's what contracts and such are all about (the rights of the business
and customers). There's a whole branch of law regarding the rights and
responsibilities of businesses. My daughter-in-law is going into business law,
they have rights.Maybe you're thinking all "Rights" are
spelled out in the Bill of Rights.... Well, if you are thinking that... you
would be wrong. Those are the God-given "inalienable-rights". But
that's not all the rights that exist. There are rights
outside the "Bill or Rights" the government gives us (the right to
drive, get married, traffic laws, etc). All rights are not outlined in the
Constitution OR the Bill of Rights (not same thing). The Bill of
Rights is part of the Constitution. It is the name given to the first ten
amendments (or changes) to the Constitution. The Bill of Rights limits the
powers of the Federal government and protects the rights of all citizens. But
there ARE other rights, and some of them protect businesses (from people who
would steal from them).
The current status of employees of private business and any other organization
that operates in a business like manner, is that of a voluntary part time
slave.In order to become an employee an individual must give up many
of his rights and freedoms to the whims of an employer. Typically these would
include the time of the employment, start, stop and duration. Next would be the
place of employment, location, conditions, and access. Procedures, process and
amount, and in some cases even control of the employee's actions after the
work period. Although we've come a long way from the ancient
slavery where the right to life was a given, we still have a long way to go.
It is unlikely the employer will give up the "master" status
so we must depend on and defend workers unions and especially that really big
one that goes by the initials USA.
There are no such things as business rights. They don't exist in our
national Constitution and they are not written or posted in any media. Only
people have rights, they are secured and specified in writing in our
Constitution and the code of laws passed by the government of the United States
of America. Business operations can exist only by permission of the
government of the place where the business operation is to operated and within
the rules specified by the government of the United States of America. The
rules and regulations of either the governments may change according to the
desires of people or their government. Business is the child of
society and like an employee of private business operations, it must abide by
the rules of its employer (society) or quit.
I don't think much of what you're upset about is actually happening.
@Kora"If you kill the small business, the employees no longer have a
job, and unionization kills small businesses. "I can't
think of a single small business with a union, they typically only go with
organizing large workforces. (Think of it this way: 10 workers worth of union
dues just isn't worth it from the union's perspective)."Dems are content to have more people dependent on the government."A union that negotiates higher wages or health benefits etc is actually
making workers less dependent on the gov't to fill in gaps if they
otherwise didn't make enough to get by."Remember, the Dems
are the party of "too Big to Fail". "If Dems had their
way the big banks would be regulated to the point that they would no longer be
too big to fail. If you let conglomerates that huge fail we would've had a
Great Depression rather than a bad recession. Dems want to keep them from
getting that huge.
one old man- People are denied jobs everyday if they refuse to pay the Unions.
That is a fact. We have closed shops in the US that require Union membership, or
at a minimum give some funds to the union to work there. How is that right to
deny a job if you won't give the union money?Open Minded-
Liberals hate to admit it, but Capitalism and Reagan were the greatest influence
in the downfall of Communism. FYI, The Bolsheviks started essentially as a
Union. Union ideology with "workers rights" was the backbone of their
organization with the Revolution being the "Workers Revolution". A Union
played a part in Poland but was not the primary cause for the downfall.These rants against income inequality, private business being bad, and workers
not receiving fair pay and being treated fairly are very similar to how
Communism started. The people leading the cause all happen to be at the top of
the income ladder, many higher than those they criticize. They expect to be the
ones in power like Castro and Lenin, and guess where the rest end up.
@FreedomFighter41,Re: "Are richies like the Koch family and
Walton family the only ones who get to have rights and enjoy the prosperity of
this country"?No... there's also the Kennedy family, and
the Heinz/Kerry family, rich lawyers like John Edwards, and the Gore
family...===========@one old man,I
don't care if you THINK it's not true. Because I know that it is
(unless my good friend lied to me about what happened to her).I
could give you more details so you could contact her directly, but this is not
the place. I don't know about the online story you are talking about, but
this happened to a person in my ward, right here in Utah.I
can't prove that the Union refusal was the reason they let her go, it could
have been something else. But I can prove that she was hired by the USPS, and
let go the day after the heated discussion about joining the Union.If it was because of her remarks about the Union... there's something
wrong with that. Union membership should not be a REQUIREMENT for employment
(especially a REQUIREMENT for government employment).
The most recent republican presidential candidate ran a company that helped
dismantle medium-sized companies and ship jobs overseas. The owner and other key
players in the company made a great deal of money. The workers…
Didn't do so well.
Esquire- Who is the real party of Big Business. Remember, the Dems are the party
of "too Big to Fail". Only Big businesses are too big to fail, not small
business. The dems had no interest in helping them because they are not full of
donating big Unions like GM and Chrysler. The Dems have never supported cutting
regulations so that it would be easier for small businesses to start and thrive.
They support heavy handed regulations that only big businesses can wade
through.At one point Unions did good work, now all they do is
protect the indolent, and bad employees, and fund Democratic campaigns. Hence
the VA can't fire anybody and we see the results. Unions are more a
political organization now than anything else. As for worker safety, now they
actually protect workers who are unsafe and help them keep their jobs where they
put people at risk.One Old Man- If you kill the small business, the
employees no longer have a job, and unionization kills small businesses. They
can't afford it. The fact is, only Republicans are looking out for workers.
Dems are content to have more people dependent on the government.
2bits -- why do I think the story about your postal worker is simply not true?
Could it be because I've heard it before (in a couple of internet emails
from unknown sources) and that it has been repeatedly debunked by fact checkers?
25 years go, Labor UNIONS defeated Communism.Today, American Capitalists defend, support, invest, and fund it.
We live in a time of great uncertainty and discord caused by the
right-wing's attacks on American workers. This is especially true when it
comes to attacks on the right to collective bargaining.The
irrefutable fact is that most businesses are made successful and profitable by
individuals who worked hard to help business owners build those businesses from
nothing. The Republicans' attacks on businesses are really nothing more
than attacks on small business owners as they attempt to destroy our working
class.The Republicans need to quit attacking small business
employees. Pretty soon, they will have completely destroyed the incentive to
work at all. Who will they tax when there are no more workers?
I am deeply disappointed that so many are so willing to take away individual
rights and freedoms and opportunity for better lives from those hard working
Americans who do the labor that produces the products of our businesses.
"Today in America, unions have a secure place in our industrial life. Only a
handful of reactionaries harbor the ugly thought of breaking unions and
depriving working men and women of the right to join the union of their choice.
I have no use for those -- regardless of their political party -- who hold some
vain and foolish dream of spinning the clock back to days when organized labor
was huddled, almost as a hapless mass. Only a fool would try to deprive working
men and women of the right to join the union of their choice."
—Dwight D. Eisenhower
How dare the unions and the government get involved in business and mandate such
things as safe workplaces, 8-hour days, 5-day work weeks, no child labor, fair
pay, sick leave ... the list goes on.To quote a favorite bumper
sticker: "Did you have a nice weekend? Thank the unions."
Are richies like the Koch family and Walton family the only ones who get to have
rights and enjoy the prosperity of this country? And the rest of us merely
slaves to their gluttony? I miss the Republican Party that cared
about small businesses, the working middle-class, and the poor.Imagine if Teddy Roosevelt and Abe Lincoln were alive today. They'd be
labeled RINOs and attacked nonstop by Fox News and am radio. The right embraces
Oligarchy while trampling the great works for democracy that Presidents Lincoln
did Roosevelt accomplished.I never left the Republican Party. It
JCS: An irrefutable fact is that air is needed for human respiration. That
"most businesses are owned by people who worked hard to build them from
nothing" is not remotely an irrefutable fact. It is merely an opinion that
you personally have and have generalized to the rest of mankind. Point of fact (not irrefutable if you can prove otherwise): Five of the ten
richest people in America are named Walton, but only one of them ever worked for
Wal-Mart. The rest are where they are due to Daddy Sam (now nearly 20 years in
the grave) and the hard work of the one family member still pulling the wagon
along with the hundreds of thousands of employees who insure its success in the
future. Still...too bad they couldn't take a billion or two less and offer
health insurance an a living wage to their employees so that the taxpayers
wouldn't have to subsidize them with food stamps and medicaid.
Government intervention into what job you CAN have and what job you CAN'T
have is bad enough. But when Labor Unions can do that (and they aren't
part of the government, but they act like they are)... it's even worse
(IMO).A friend of mine recently got a job offer from the US Postal
Service. She went through weeks of paid training and did well. She met with
her HR person to get signed up for benefits and get started on the job. They
told her about the Union, the dues, and how the Union would protect her. But
her father had a bad experience with a Labor Union, and her husband had a
similar experience. So she said she wasn't interested in joining the Union
or having them take part of her pay check. The HR person told her again how
much the Union would protect her if she ever got in trouble. She again said
she wasn't interested. The next morning they told her she was fired (they
gave no reason).That's not fair. You should get the job if
you are qualified (no Union approval needed).
What are you talking about in this letter?There are no attacks on
small business. But what is especially ironic is that any talk of shifting
money from the centralized hands of the few, which would then foster growth of
small business, are vigorously resisted by Republicans. Here's the lesson
of the day: Republicans are the party of big business. They always have been
in the past 100 years. They are not the party of small business. The Democrats
are the party of small business. "In 1996, the Republican-controlled House
of Representatives planned to eliminate the agency. It survived and went on to
receive a record high budget in 2000 under Clinton. Renewed efforts by the Bush
Administration to end the SBA loan program met congressional resistance,
although the SBA's budget was repeatedly cut, and in 2004 certain
expenditures were frozen. The Obama Administration has supported the SBA
budget." So, please, let's be factual. The GOP is not the friend of
What about workers? What about consumers?Do they have any rights?
Or are business owners the only protected class in this country that
can treat people as poorly and unfairly as they want?Historically,
this country has feared the tyranny of the government. However, today, I only
see the tyranny of business.
We live in a time of great uncertainty and discord caused by the
left-wing's attacks on businesses. This is especially true when it comes to
attacks on property rights.The irrefutable fact is that most
businesses are owned by individuals who worked hard to build those businesses
from nothing. The democrats' attacks on businesses are really nothing more
than attacks on small business owners. The democrats need to quit
attacking small business owners. Pretty soon, they will have completely
destroyed the incentive to work at all. Who will they tax when there are no more
And I'm deeply disappointed that 1% owns 80% of everything the 99%
produce...I'm also disappointed that many of those 1% offloaded
and outsourced 50% of America's former GDP to Communists.Just
trying to keep things in their proper perspective, that's all...
Really?It seems awfully easy for a member of the majority to say
that folks who disagree with a business should go elsewhere.It seems
awfully forgetful to put aside what unions accomplished -- ending child labor,
decent lunch breaks, safe working conditions, and so much more.I
think this is another letter about wedding cakes. You know, only 2 bakers got in
trouble for breaking the law by refusing to make cakes, and both of them created
their own problem by acting if their religious views were better than the