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Comments about ‘Letter: Value of gender’

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Published: Monday, June 16 2014 12:00 a.m. MDT

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Kally
Salt Lake City, UT

No one is suggesting anyone is an "it" - we are merely suggesting that women and men are equal in value and worth.

No one is trying to erase gender or the differences between the genders - we are simply trying to erase the inequality with which those differences are treated.

You extol the virtues of the many great women you have known in your life - but at the same time imply that women who behave differently from those you revere are somehow less than real women.

All humans, regardless of their genders, have value. All humans, regardless of the role they play in their families, have worth. Women can fulfill the roles you extol or they can fulfill other roles - which roles they fill does not lessen their value or worth.

Those who seek to force women to act in certain manner by denying them value for not acting in that manner, are the ones who are degrading women and society.

ordinaryfolks
seattle, WA

The LTE writer is lucky to have had a good marriage, and good role models.

However, he confuses gender role models from gender role compulsion. Not all woman wish to be mothers. Not all woman wish to be stay at home moms. In fact, some woman can not be stay at home moms due to economic problems. To compel any human being into a strict gender role as identified by this person's obvious faith tradition is cruel. Nobody really wins in the long run.

If strong families are the goal, then efforts should be made by all levels of society to support those families in whatever from they may take. Be it the more "traditional" mom at home, dad the bread winner model, or the more recent iterations which includes same sex households with kids, all should be supported by government, churches, schools, and all our common connections.

liberal larry
salt lake City, utah

In the 1970's women players made up about 10% of major American orchestras. Everyone knew that women didn't have the stamina for the strings, and lacked the lung capacity to power the piccolos.

But after screens were set up to facilitate "blind auditions" the number of women in orchestras started to rise, and by the 1990's women made up about 35% of orchestras!

Studies have shown that blind auditions increase the odds of women being selected by about 50%!

Sometimes its good to erase gender.

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

The letter writer here is a perfect example of what is driving much of the discord in America today. My world is the way the world should be. It made/makes me happy so therefore it's the way. The view is affectionately called living in a bubble, but it's simply in most cases not being conversant or familiar with other circumstances except as aberrations of the way things should be.

It takes a great deal of humility to look at others without the shield of your own convictions. It's dangerous to those convictions and the very reason institutions discourage members from doing so.

However it's also very liberating. If you develop the ability to engage the world in such a way you find that sometimes your convictions are confirmed and sometimes they aren't. However the new idea changes your world for the better.

Mike Richards
South Jordan, Utah

The letter writer pointed out that our VALUE in society is related to our ROLE in society. He wrote about women who made a difference to their families and to people around them by fulfilling the role appointed to them because of their gender. They were mothers. They were role models to their sons and daughters. They were not diminished because they fulfilled their role. They were magnified by being what God had intended them to be.

As modern prophets have told us in "The Family: A Proclamation to the World":

"All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents, and, as such, each has a divine nature and destiny. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose. . . We further declare that God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between man and woman, lawfully wedded as husband and wife."

Those are the words of God given to us through His prophets. Arguments to the contrary notwithstanding, when God speaks the issue is settled.

Maudine
SLC, UT

@ Mike: Women have value because they are human beings - if you and your God are unable to see that, then I feel very sorry for the both of you.

Mike Richards
South Jordan, Utah

George Orwell wrote:

"The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those that speak it."

pragmatistferlife
salt lake city, utah

"They were not diminished because they fulfilled their role."

And while many engage you for various reason here is why none respect you.

GZE
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

I am sure both your mother and your wife were wonderful women, wives, and mothers. Did you ever ask them if they found their lives fulfilling? Did you ever wonder if there was something your mother would have liked to do that was denied her because she was busy with what had to be done? It is ingenious to assume that someone who does not complain about their lot in life - who in fact may be satisfied 99 percent of the time - did not sometimes resent the rules society imposed upon her.

The Wraith
Kaysville, UT

Kally I would like to commend you on that post. It was incredibly well written and expressed my own thoughts better than I could have hoped to express them. Thank you for being an oasis of rationality and truthfulness in a place usually devoid of both - or even an understanding of them.

J Thompson
SPRINGVILLE, UT

We just celebrated Father's Day yesterday. We gave honor to those men who sacrificed so that we could enjoy life. I know that my father stopped trying to "please himself" when he married. His goal was to provide for his wife an honorable husband, to care for her needs, to do his part in society and to welcome into his home all the children that God sent. Before marrying, he had dreams of being great in business, but he put those dreams aside so that he could provide a stable household for his family.

The result is that at the end of his life, he looked back and realized that raising a family and teaching that family correct principles was life's greatest reward. He knew that he had spared no effort to fulfill his role as father and that he had not acted selfishly while fulfilling that role.

Some scoff at "fulling roles", especially the roles that God, our Father, gave us. I appreciate God's concern for his children and his directions to us. I don't look for gods who agree with me.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

@Kally,
Re: "women and men are equal in value and worth."

Nobody's contending the contrary. So you are arguing a strawman argument nobody's trying to make, and creating contention where none exists.

God loves every child the same (as a good parent would, regardless of gender).

Mormons love every person the same (regardless of gender) as God has taught us.

That doesn't mean we must reject what God has taught about the family, gender roles, the family, how he designed us, and what he has taught us from the beginning of time (because today we are so modern and sophisticated... his advice teachings no longer fit).

Google "The family: A Proclamation to the world"...

You will see re-affirmations of what we has been taught since Adam. Things like...

"We solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the Creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of His children"

"Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose"

"HUSBAND AND WIFE have a solemn responsibility to love and care for each other and for their children."

Etc...

RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

To "Kally" but we do treat men and women differently. Men and women act differently too, FYI.

They both have the same protections under the law, but that is not what the letter was addressing.

The problem is that because of the push for equality, we have destroyed the respect that women once received simply because they were women.

For example, it used to be shameful if a man couldn't earn enough to support his family. Now, women are expected to have careers outside the home. Men used to feel obligated to pay for dates, and to show his date respect. Now, men are expected to pay for a date or two, then the cost of dates are shared, and respect is shown for the first couple of dates or until the girl sleeps with the guy. Men used to persue women, now it is a free-for-all, where women are just as agressive as men.

As a society we have traded respect for women into competition with women. That isn't realy a good thing when you step back and look at what it is doing.

GZE
SALT LAKE CITY, UT

Red Shirt, "It used to be shameful if a man couldn't earn enough to support his family."

And that was all he was expected to do. A father was not expected to spend time with his children; they were fed and put to bed before he returned from his job. A man could treat his wife however he wanted; legally she was his property.

Acknowledging that women have equal worth to men actually requires men to respect women as people.

Daniel L.
Murray, UT

Thank you Kally, no work performed will ever be as enduring as that of mothers and fathers, husbands and wives, dedicating their lives towards the greater good of their posterity. Generations will always look back with thankful hearts for those parents that left legacies of service and sacrifice for their posterity. Our communities should do all that it can to encourage commitment, love, and responsibility is fostered in the family, that they may be passed on to our future posterity!

RedShirt
USS Enterprise, UT

To "GZE" I am talking the type of respect that and expectations that society had prior to the 1970's and 1980's. Not the attitudes of 1100 AD.

RanchHand
Huntsville, UT

@MikeRichards;

Prove that the "proclamation" is the word of god and not just the "opinion" of your current leadership (I'm betting that in not that far a future, we're going to see an "essay" indicating that it was only the "opinion/policy" of your church, just as was done for the "Blacks and the Priesthood" issue. In any case, all we have is your word that it is the word of god, the LDS leadership NEVER came out and wrote "God Says:" when they issued their proclamation (opinion).

Midvaliean
MIDVALE, UT

Being masculine or feminine isn't gender specific. Most people that are one or the other prefer the opposite. Most masculine people are fulfilled most when paired with a someone whose feminine qualities complement theirs. It's the human way.
To me it seems like somewhere along the line the political correct people have been frowning on those who are too feminine or too masculine. That is a mistake. Learn, know, and then decide.

The Real Maverick
Orem, UT

@ Redshirt

It used to be shameful to shut down the government. It used to be shameful to lie and slander the President. It used to be shameful to use American deaths to attack the other party. It used to be shameful to obstruct government and use obstructionism not governance as a measuring stick for success. It used to be shameful to trust in big industry rather than scientists. It used to be shameful to put rich people ahead of the American middle class.

Many things have changed in this country. Unfortunately, while I've never leaves the Republican Party, sadly, the Republican Party has left me.

2 bits
Cottonwood Heights, UT

@RanchHand,
The proclamation on the family is what it is... To some it's important, to others it's nothing.

Nobody's telling you to accept it, or forcing you to accept it (those who don't believe in Prophets). But for people who claim to accept the source of the proclamation... it's an important thing. So don't belittle it. Nobody's saying you have to accept it. But it's worth bringing up... since many people reading these pages respect what the prophet says more than what WE say.

===

I think it's valid to bring up what the Prophet has said on the topic (same as what prophets since the begining have said). But don't mistake that for me saying you have to believe like I believe. I'm sharing it with other believers.

====

The prophet is just saying that there are gender differences, but both genders deserve the same respect and both have the same value (to him). I don't see why that would upset you, or anybody.

They may have different roles in the family... but both have the same "worth" to him...

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