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UHSAA board of trustees approves success rate formula for football realignment

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  • Rural sport fan DUCHESNE, UT
    June 17, 2014 12:35 a.m.

    Tuffy, I actually agree with you about 30 point wins being a bit pointless. But the answer isn't to try for imposed parity, the answer Is to get your program working. Duchesne had plenty of bad years, and worked hard to change that. They also do try to play up, they actually played two teams that made it to state in 2A, as well as a 3A team last year, and they try to do that every year. During that win streak, they played Park City as well.

    But most good 3A teams don't have a game to "waste" on a no-win game vs a 1A team. If you lose you're the goat, if you win, you're the bully. It's just not a good tactical decision.

    Also, not one single team in 1A routinely has 40 players. Most average 25 or so. The largest 1A schools only have about 80 boys in 9th-12th grades, and they certainly aren't there for football. So you can see why this scheme truly isn't a fix for the small schools.

  • Tuffy Parker Salem, UT
    June 16, 2014 1:25 p.m.

    Rural sport fan - Tried to post previously regarding amassing talent for dontknow but apparently the DNews felt it was offensive and it didn't pass moderation. In response to you:

    "Recruiting" is figurative but certainly amassing talent happens. I agree that it is largely a 4A-5A issue and not likely anything to worry Duchesne unless some of the talent wants to move to Provo for more exposure.

    Please explain to me how beating region foes year in and year out by 30 points benefits anyone. Those on the steamrolling team certainly know that they are playing lesser talent. If you have a good team, don't you want to play against good competition? What is proven by repeatedly beating lesser talent? Oh, and that's where parity comes in. Why not try to evenly match teams within classifications to create an atmosphere of true competition? After all, isn't that the purpose of classification in the first place?

    That being said, 1A is a true anomaly in the system. Some schools can't field a team while other routinely have 40+ players. While the new classification process may be a challenge to some, I believe it's worth a try.

  • Dennis Harwich, MA
    June 15, 2014 11:42 a.m.

    Too many divisions as it is. 6 is ridiculous in Utah.
    - up to 300 + - 10%,
    - 300 to 800 + - 10%
    - 800 to 1,800 + - 10%
    - 1800 and up.
    It should always have been these numbers divided into sensible regions to accommodate travel.

  • Rural sport fan DUCHESNE, UT
    June 15, 2014 10:59 a.m.

    Tuffy Parker: "If a school is able to amass top level talent "

    Since recruiting is against the rules, that can't possibly happen, right? And it doesn't happen at smaller community based schools, it's a 4A-5A issue. But everyone else is getting the shaft on this deal, probably partly due to Duchesne extending the win streak record.

    Tuffy: "When a school typically beats everyone in the region by 30 points it can't really be that rewarding "

    That's true. So work harder, or smarter.

    Tuffy: "Parity is key for the high school athletic system to work."

    No, that's the key for a pro system to work. High schools aren't supposed to be about parity or even success rates, they are supposed to be about teamwork, socialization, development, enjoyment, and community, a message that seems to be lacking in most media reports not written by Amy Donaldson. Admittedly, it's more enjoyable to win.

    In 1A, most teams have 25-35 kids dressed, 9-12. How is that supposed to match up with teams that put 50-70 on the sideline, every weekend? Yes we want to compete. But that's not what this rule is really about.

  • Rural sport fan DUCHESNE, UT
    June 15, 2014 10:36 a.m.

    Eagle: 40 point blowouts are easy to avoid. Eliminate that first round of state, it's a joke anyway.

    So if you are in the middle of your class based on size, and win a lot, you can stay and dominate, but if you are near or at the top, you must move up? How is that fair? The UHSAA is assuming that repeated winning is due to enrollment size.

    By the way...in the smaller classifications, none of this makes any sense, as we simply cannot recruit. Success is based on good coaching, and cohorts of kids, 4 years at a time.

  • 00dave Provo, UT
    June 14, 2014 3:35 p.m.

    If this makes so much sense in Football, why not all other sports. What was the argument that keeps this rule only to football?

    For example, Timpview's baseball team only won 1 game last season and it's been quite some time since they were in the playoffs. By this logic the Timpview baseball team should be playing 3A.

    It does seem unfortunate that a few can push this through.

  • carman Wasatch Front, UT
    June 14, 2014 8:29 a.m.

    The squeaky wheels get the grease. That's all this is.

    Also, the UHSAA has an ax to grind with a few schools, and they take every opportunity to do so. It is clear that Timpview is on the "naughty" list, as are a few others. This is just another way for some bureaucrats to poke a stick in their eye...

  • Timpvew-&-UVU Provo, UT
    June 13, 2014 8:35 p.m.

    @DontKnow
    @AirLiner

    First off I agree with both of you.

    Timpview will make 5A before East: TO ME (Even though East and Timp will both be 5A next year)Just saying that Timpview has a better record.

    That being said: TO ME (East will survive in 5A in the long run, when Timp will not) supposedly.

    Like DontKnow stated (Timpview is shrinking is size)
    I'm not positive that East is or will be higher/lower/the same in population.

    TO ME: I could be wrong but this seems logical in my mind being (East is located in SL.)
    but my theory is ONLY BAISED ON POPULATION.
    But Timpview has their ways :).

    Alta would become the STRONGER AND BIGGER "Provo High School Rivalry" of 5A for Timpveiw, at least in my book :)

    Your Thoughts? @DontKnow @AirLiner

  • Wasp Sideliner Nephi, UT
    June 13, 2014 5:07 p.m.

    I'm not sure how this will all work out, but I hope UHSAA takes into consideration, down the line if need be, to look at the private schools in SLC, namely Juan Diego and Judge Memorial. They can pull kids from all around SL County who would have been able to play at 5A or 4A schools and then cap enrollment numbers to be classified in a lower division making them powerhouses. Also, how did Judge Memorial go down to 3A (not even 3AA) in football when they are 4A in everything else? How is that fair?

  • dontknow Provo, UT
    June 13, 2014 3:20 p.m.

    Tuffy Parker

    You are completely missing the point on this. When you take a 4A school of 1,400 kids and match them up against 5A schools of 2,200 kids or more, what happens? The 4A school is smaller with less players verses the 5A school that have several back ups. This HURTS the players from 4A week in and week out.

    It sounds like you got your feelings hurt because you can not compete at the 4A level in the region you are in. 3A or 3AA maybe a good option for Salem hills.

    Do you know the story behind "Anyone, Anywhere, Anytime!"? Do some research from what happened in 2012. If Salem can not compete with schools like Timpview, Orem, MV that are shrinking in size because there is no new growth then Salem needs to move down to 3A to compete. Especially, since a lot of new growth in Utah County is ocurring in Spanish Fork and Salem.

    When a program is good because of coaches and talent, then other kids from surrounding areas want to naturally go there. I want the best for my kids and will make the necessary choices to provide them the best opportunities.

  • UtahBruin Saratoga Springs, UT
    June 13, 2014 2:51 p.m.

    @AF Cougar

    Correct me if I am wrong, I didn't go back and look. But I think it said only could go up or down one classification per year. Meaning you cant drop from 5A to 3A, you would have to go through 4A first.

  • JD Books Sulphurdale, UT
    June 13, 2014 2:28 p.m.

    This is great. In basketball the SS Rams could match wits with 5A competition on a more regular basis.

  • Tuffy Parker Salem, UT
    June 13, 2014 12:07 p.m.

    @ dontknow

    I assume there is at least one Provo school who will welcome the opportunity to play better teams. After all, their motto "Anyone, Anywhere, Anytime!" doesn't leave a lot of room to complain about playing a tougher schedule.

  • Tuffy Parker Salem, UT
    June 13, 2014 11:59 a.m.

    Some schools have been able to successfully "recruit" top level players while others have not. Even when families "follow the rules" and move within a specific school boundary for a better opportunity for their child athlete, it creates an unfair advantage over schools that only have local talent to work with.

    If a school is able to amass top level talent why shouldn't they be paired against other schools with top level talent? When a school typically beats everyone in the region by 30 points it can't really be that rewarding for their players and certainly isn't for opposing teams.

    Parity is key for the high school athletic system to work. I'm all in favor of factoring in success rates for classification.

  • AFCoug Colorado Springs, CO
    June 13, 2014 11:28 a.m.

    If a school can only go up or down one level (ever) I think this could work out. SChools consistently winning or beating other schools is not a good thing in HS football. This isn't college and yet powerhouses always seem to get the best players in the state. They move, list an uncle's adress, recuit, etc. If you are at the top of your div wouldn't you want to prove yourself at the next level?

  • Roller Mills Lehi, UT
    June 13, 2014 10:23 a.m.

    If they did this in basketball, the Jazz would be in 4A; Lone Peak would be in the PAC12.

  • UtahBruin Saratoga Springs, UT
    June 13, 2014 10:01 a.m.

    The UHSAA BCS System huh! I am surprised to hear so many are against this. But I get it. I understand why they would want to do it like this. And I see a bit why people would be against it. But when I read this article. There are way to many variables to prevent teams going up and down. School size, rivalries, proximity to others schools, etc. I guarantee you that the number one factor will be travel distance. There is no way that the UHSAA is gong to pay to much money just for better parity. It won't change that much. I live in Saratoga Springs, and our Westlake Thunder is horrible and very much over matched in our 5A region. Do I think we are 5A Caliber, absolutely not, and I think we are just over the line barely to be in 5A, but we are in 5A because of our location to other schools and we fill a need for travel cost. Heck we would struggle to make the playoffs in 4A, but we definitely shouldn't be in 3A because we are not good. This UHSAA BCS system is flawed as well.

  • There You Go Again Saint George, UT
    June 13, 2014 9:34 a.m.

    In the interest of hair-brained schemes...

    Why not have a super-league(s)?

    All of the consistent winners in each classification can opt for the super-league if they choose.

    Say 16 schools choose the super-league.

    2 eight team divisions...7 games...leaving 2 games for long standing rivals and 1 endowment game.

    Key concepts...

    Teams (i.e. coaches, administrators, patrons, players) can choose.

    Long standing rivalry games can continue to be scheduled.

    Excellence is rewarded.

  • OregonCougar Pleasant Grove, UT
    June 13, 2014 9:29 a.m.

    IMO, what this truly points to is the problem created by open enrollment. If there were changes made to have athletes play for their local schools instead of transferring to whatever school gives them the best recruitment pitch that would very likely take care of some of these issues regarding competition. Take away all of their recruits from other boundaries and they are not the dominate programs that would be discussed here. Keep the kids in their own community, create some community pride in their teams and this will bring back the competition level to equal the size of the school. Plus it stops the ridiculous recruiting efforts that continually go on by coaches and parents. Let’s turn this back into high school sports and local pride and stop thinking that it is the next level.

  • xert Santa Monica, CA
    June 13, 2014 9:22 a.m.

    A good way to reduce the stigma which accompanies a move downward bump, would be to present that schools coaching staffs and players with You Will Be Missed trophies. Or, even better--they could be given You Make Our Division Tougher trophies by their new divisions in a pre-first contest ceremony. Either way--just as long as there are trophies. Lot's and lot's of them.

  • 5 Orem, UT
    June 13, 2014 7:55 a.m.

    We have come a long way from the Indiana basketball concept of all schools playing in the same tournament. That was probably too great a difference in size of schools, but this is a bit much. I have noticed a trend in education to reduce or eliminate the concept of winners which reduces the stigma of losing. One of the great lessons of life is learning how to lose gracefully. And how to grow from and overcome defeat. It seems that we have gone too far to eliminate those situations. Hence you now have schools that feature up to a dozen valedictorians at graduation to provide more winners. And there are so many classifications that winning now has less meaning. Maybe we should just give every athlete a trophy at the end of the year, and eliminate losing all together.

  • scrappy do DRAPER, UT
    June 13, 2014 7:26 a.m.

    stupid move here, 2 schools whine and this is what we get??

    how about this, hey Manti you keep winning in 2a, we will move you up to 3a... so you can get clocked by much bigger schools with much bigger kids... brilliant

    hey granger lets move your 300 lb linemen down to 3aa so they can really hurt someone, heck go to 3a, heck 1a until you win a championship

  • Roller Mills Lehi, UT
    June 13, 2014 6:46 a.m.

    This is like relegation in European league soccer. Ogden will be playing in 1A in three years.

  • Tenn12 Orem, UT
    June 12, 2014 10:58 p.m.

    dontknow you are exactly right. I couldn't have said it better. I am wondering why we force teams to move up. Let's just let teams move down if needed.

  • dontknow Provo, UT
    June 12, 2014 10:25 p.m.

    There are a lot of schools in 4A that are half the size of schools in 5A. The schools that are successful in 4A have good players and very good coaches.

    If you have every watched a 4A team play a 5A team you will see the difference on the sideline in the amount of players the 5A team have compared to the 4A team. The 5A team has a lot of depth to replace injuries week in and week out where as a 4A is very limited.

    This is a decision coming from politically minded bureaucrats who are looking to appease the schools that can not compete. This is truly a case of punishing teams for being successful and could be considered discrimination against teams that are more successful that others.

  • airliner Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2014 9:25 p.m.

    A couple of observations:

    Cache Valley: would all 3 schools make the jump to 5A or would they split them up? I apologize, but I am unaware of the enrollment.

    Salt Lake schools: is East a lock for 5A? West would most likely get bumped down. With their state title in '10 and semis two seasons ago, would Highland go 5A? It would be great to have all three teams in the same region.

    Without understanding the enrollment, it's just speculation. I am not sure where I stand on this. I agree with @Eagle, in that it will provide for great competition, but then again, why make a beauracratic policy making body more complex?

  • eagle Provo, UT
    June 12, 2014 8:53 p.m.

    Or one way to look at it is if you're successful, move up and test yourself against better competition...

    I actually think this will increase the quality of competition. Some of us that follow high school sports are growing tired of the 40 point blowout wins in the first round of the football playoffs. And I would love say to watch Timpview take on Bingham in a game that actually meant something. just sayin...

  • why play SAINT GEORGE, UT
    June 12, 2014 7:27 p.m.

    Reward mediocrity, penalize success - sounds like a great formula to me!

    Let's just stop keeping score and no one will ever lose and everything will be fair and equal.

    Another brilliant move by the UHSAA!

  • Tenn12 Orem, UT
    June 12, 2014 6:54 p.m.

    This is sad to hear but nevertheless expected. The UHSAA always caters to the loud minority. Let's be real, a few schools that consistently struggled complained and the UHSAA caved. They didn't take in to account how unfair this is to the majority of schools because they weren't whiners.