Tuffy, I actually agree with you about 30 point wins being a bit pointless. But
the answer isn't to try for imposed parity, the answer Is to get your
program working. Duchesne had plenty of bad years, and worked hard to change
that. They also do try to play up, they actually played two teams that made it
to state in 2A, as well as a 3A team last year, and they try to do that every
year. During that win streak, they played Park City as well.But
most good 3A teams don't have a game to "waste" on a no-win game vs
a 1A team. If you lose you're the goat, if you win, you're the bully.
It's just not a good tactical decision.Also, not one single
team in 1A routinely has 40 players. Most average 25 or so. The largest 1A
schools only have about 80 boys in 9th-12th grades, and they certainly
aren't there for football. So you can see why this scheme truly isn't
a fix for the small schools.
Rural sport fan - Tried to post previously regarding amassing talent for
dontknow but apparently the DNews felt it was offensive and it didn't pass
moderation. In response to you:"Recruiting" is figurative
but certainly amassing talent happens. I agree that it is largely a 4A-5A issue
and not likely anything to worry Duchesne unless some of the talent wants to
move to Provo for more exposure. Please explain to me how beating
region foes year in and year out by 30 points benefits anyone. Those on the
steamrolling team certainly know that they are playing lesser talent. If you
have a good team, don't you want to play against good competition? What is
proven by repeatedly beating lesser talent? Oh, and that's where parity
comes in. Why not try to evenly match teams within classifications to create an
atmosphere of true competition? After all, isn't that the purpose of
classification in the first place?That being said, 1A is a true
anomaly in the system. Some schools can't field a team while other
routinely have 40+ players. While the new classification process may be a
challenge to some, I believe it's worth a try.
Too many divisions as it is. 6 is ridiculous in Utah.- up to 300 + -
10%,- 300 to 800 + - 10%- 800 to 1,800 + - 10%- 1800 and
up.It should always have been these numbers divided into sensible regions
to accommodate travel.
Tuffy Parker: "If a school is able to amass top level talent "Since recruiting is against the rules, that can't possibly happen, right?
And it doesn't happen at smaller community based schools, it's a
4A-5A issue. But everyone else is getting the shaft on this deal, probably
partly due to Duchesne extending the win streak record.Tuffy:
"When a school typically beats everyone in the region by 30 points it
can't really be that rewarding "That's true. So work
harder, or smarter.Tuffy: "Parity is key for the high school
athletic system to work."No, that's the key for a pro
system to work. High schools aren't supposed to be about parity or even
success rates, they are supposed to be about teamwork, socialization,
development, enjoyment, and community, a message that seems to be lacking in
most media reports not written by Amy Donaldson. Admittedly, it's more
enjoyable to win. In 1A, most teams have 25-35 kids dressed, 9-12.
How is that supposed to match up with teams that put 50-70 on the sideline,
every weekend? Yes we want to compete. But that's not what this rule is
Eagle: 40 point blowouts are easy to avoid. Eliminate that first round of
state, it's a joke anyway. So if you are in the middle of your
class based on size, and win a lot, you can stay and dominate, but if you are
near or at the top, you must move up? How is that fair? The UHSAA is assuming
that repeated winning is due to enrollment size.By the way...in the
smaller classifications, none of this makes any sense, as we simply cannot
recruit. Success is based on good coaching, and cohorts of kids, 4 years at a
If this makes so much sense in Football, why not all other sports. What was the
argument that keeps this rule only to football?For example,
Timpview's baseball team only won 1 game last season and it's been
quite some time since they were in the playoffs. By this logic the Timpview
baseball team should be playing 3A.It does seem unfortunate that a
few can push this through.
The squeaky wheels get the grease. That's all this is.Also,
the UHSAA has an ax to grind with a few schools, and they take every opportunity
to do so. It is clear that Timpview is on the "naughty" list, as are a
few others. This is just another way for some bureaucrats to poke a stick in
@DontKnow@AirLinerFirst off I agree with both of you.Timpview will make 5A before East: TO ME (Even though East and Timp will both
be 5A next year)Just saying that Timpview has a better record.That
being said: TO ME (East will survive in 5A in the long run, when Timp will not)
supposedly.Like DontKnow stated (Timpview is shrinking is size)I'm not positive that East is or will be higher/lower/the same in
population.TO ME: I could be wrong but this seems logical in my mind
being (East is located in SL.)but my theory is ONLY BAISED ON POPULATION.
But Timpview has their ways :). Alta would become the STRONGER
AND BIGGER "Provo High School Rivalry" of 5A for Timpveiw, at least in
my book :) Your Thoughts? @DontKnow @AirLiner
I'm not sure how this will all work out, but I hope UHSAA takes into
consideration, down the line if need be, to look at the private schools in SLC,
namely Juan Diego and Judge Memorial. They can pull kids from all around SL
County who would have been able to play at 5A or 4A schools and then cap
enrollment numbers to be classified in a lower division making them powerhouses.
Also, how did Judge Memorial go down to 3A (not even 3AA) in football when they
are 4A in everything else? How is that fair?
Tuffy ParkerYou are completely missing the point on this. When you
take a 4A school of 1,400 kids and match them up against 5A schools of 2,200
kids or more, what happens? The 4A school is smaller with less players verses
the 5A school that have several back ups. This HURTS the players from 4A week in
and week out. It sounds like you got your feelings hurt because you
can not compete at the 4A level in the region you are in. 3A or 3AA maybe a good
option for Salem hills. Do you know the story behind "Anyone,
Anywhere, Anytime!"? Do some research from what happened in 2012. If Salem
can not compete with schools like Timpview, Orem, MV that are shrinking in size
because there is no new growth then Salem needs to move down to 3A to compete.
Especially, since a lot of new growth in Utah County is ocurring in Spanish Fork
and Salem.When a program is good because of coaches and talent, then
other kids from surrounding areas want to naturally go there. I want the best
for my kids and will make the necessary choices to provide them the best
@AF CougarCorrect me if I am wrong, I didn't go back and look.
But I think it said only could go up or down one classification per year.
Meaning you cant drop from 5A to 3A, you would have to go through 4A first.
This is great. In basketball the SS Rams could match wits with 5A competition on
a more regular basis.
@ dontknowI assume there is at least one Provo school who will
welcome the opportunity to play better teams. After all, their motto
"Anyone, Anywhere, Anytime!" doesn't leave a lot of room to
complain about playing a tougher schedule.
Some schools have been able to successfully "recruit" top level players
while others have not. Even when families "follow the rules" and move
within a specific school boundary for a better opportunity for their child
athlete, it creates an unfair advantage over schools that only have local talent
to work with. If a school is able to amass top level talent why
shouldn't they be paired against other schools with top level talent? When
a school typically beats everyone in the region by 30 points it can't
really be that rewarding for their players and certainly isn't for opposing
teams.Parity is key for the high school athletic system to work.
I'm all in favor of factoring in success rates for classification.
If a school can only go up or down one level (ever) I think this could work out.
SChools consistently winning or beating other schools is not a good thing in HS
football. This isn't college and yet powerhouses always seem to get the
best players in the state. They move, list an uncle's adress, recuit, etc.
If you are at the top of your div wouldn't you want to prove yourself at
the next level?
If they did this in basketball, the Jazz would be in 4A; Lone Peak would be in
The UHSAA BCS System huh! I am surprised to hear so many are against this. But
I get it. I understand why they would want to do it like this. And I see a bit
why people would be against it. But when I read this article. There are way to
many variables to prevent teams going up and down. School size, rivalries,
proximity to others schools, etc. I guarantee you that the number one factor
will be travel distance. There is no way that the UHSAA is gong to pay to much
money just for better parity. It won't change that much. I live in
Saratoga Springs, and our Westlake Thunder is horrible and very much over
matched in our 5A region. Do I think we are 5A Caliber, absolutely not, and I
think we are just over the line barely to be in 5A, but we are in 5A because of
our location to other schools and we fill a need for travel cost. Heck we would
struggle to make the playoffs in 4A, but we definitely shouldn't be in 3A
because we are not good. This UHSAA BCS system is flawed as well.
In the interest of hair-brained schemes...Why not have a
super-league(s)?All of the consistent winners in each classification
can opt for the super-league if they choose.Say 16 schools choose
the super-league.2 eight team divisions...7 games...leaving 2 games
for long standing rivals and 1 endowment game.Key concepts...Teams (i.e. coaches, administrators, patrons, players) can choose.Long standing rivalry games can continue to be scheduled.Excellence is rewarded.
IMO, what this truly points to is the problem created by open enrollment. If
there were changes made to have athletes play for their local schools instead of
transferring to whatever school gives them the best recruitment pitch that would
very likely take care of some of these issues regarding competition. Take away
all of their recruits from other boundaries and they are not the dominate
programs that would be discussed here. Keep the kids in their own community,
create some community pride in their teams and this will bring back the
competition level to equal the size of the school. Plus it stops the ridiculous
recruiting efforts that continually go on by coaches and parents. Let’s
turn this back into high school sports and local pride and stop thinking that it
is the next level.
A good way to reduce the stigma which accompanies a move downward bump, would be
to present that schools coaching staffs and players with You Will Be Missed
trophies. Or, even better--they could be given You Make Our Division Tougher
trophies by their new divisions in a pre-first contest ceremony. Either
way--just as long as there are trophies. Lot's and lot's of them.
We have come a long way from the Indiana basketball concept of all schools
playing in the same tournament. That was probably too great a difference in size
of schools, but this is a bit much. I have noticed a trend in education to
reduce or eliminate the concept of winners which reduces the stigma of losing.
One of the great lessons of life is learning how to lose gracefully. And how to
grow from and overcome defeat. It seems that we have gone too far to eliminate
those situations. Hence you now have schools that feature up to a dozen
valedictorians at graduation to provide more winners. And there are so many
classifications that winning now has less meaning. Maybe we should just give
every athlete a trophy at the end of the year, and eliminate losing all
stupid move here, 2 schools whine and this is what we get??how about
this, hey Manti you keep winning in 2a, we will move you up to 3a... so you can
get clocked by much bigger schools with much bigger kids... brillianthey granger lets move your 300 lb linemen down to 3aa so they can really hurt
someone, heck go to 3a, heck 1a until you win a championship
This is like relegation in European league soccer. Ogden will be playing in 1A
in three years.
dontknow you are exactly right. I couldn't have said it better. I am
wondering why we force teams to move up. Let's just let teams move down if
There are a lot of schools in 4A that are half the size of schools in 5A. The
schools that are successful in 4A have good players and very good coaches. If you have every watched a 4A team play a 5A team you will see the
difference on the sideline in the amount of players the 5A team have compared to
the 4A team. The 5A team has a lot of depth to replace injuries week in and week
out where as a 4A is very limited.This is a decision coming from
politically minded bureaucrats who are looking to appease the schools that can
not compete. This is truly a case of punishing teams for being successful and
could be considered discrimination against teams that are more successful that
A couple of observations:Cache Valley: would all 3 schools make the
jump to 5A or would they split them up? I apologize, but I am unaware of the
enrollment. Salt Lake schools: is East a lock for 5A? West would
most likely get bumped down. With their state title in '10 and semis two
seasons ago, would Highland go 5A? It would be great to have all three teams in
the same region.Without understanding the enrollment, it's just
speculation. I am not sure where I stand on this. I agree with @Eagle, in
that it will provide for great competition, but then again, why make a
beauracratic policy making body more complex?
Or one way to look at it is if you're successful, move up and test yourself
against better competition...I actually think this will increase the
quality of competition. Some of us that follow high school sports are growing
tired of the 40 point blowout wins in the first round of the football playoffs.
And I would love say to watch Timpview take on Bingham in a game that actually
meant something. just sayin...
Reward mediocrity, penalize success - sounds like a great formula to me! Let's just stop keeping score and no one will ever lose and
everything will be fair and equal.Another brilliant move by the
This is sad to hear but nevertheless expected. The UHSAA always caters to the
loud minority. Let's be real, a few schools that consistently struggled
complained and the UHSAA caved. They didn't take in to account how unfair
this is to the majority of schools because they weren't whiners.