Interesting that after publishing a MyView OpEd opposing reform or amnesty, My
view: Real immigration reform: keep important virtues in mind,’ that the
next day they need to post another plea for reform, or amnesty, and cheap
labor.I suppose you must admire DNews consistency on the issue and
their continuing deviousness in redefining terms, and still wonder why the
editors of the supposed conservative news voice of Utah would openly support
lawlessness. This from supposed members of a group that purportedly believes in
obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
When do the rest of "...get the right to participate..." By breaking the
It's funny how conservatives rail against big government except when it
comes to immigration they want a police state to go around investigating who
they hired and passing out fines and jail terms, militarizing the border and so
on. Let's have a little intellectual honesty and consistency.
VST: "...Now Joe, just how do you propose we do that?" (Deny jobs,
healthcare, etc. to illegals)Easy! Fine any and all employers who
hire illegal aliens. If an employer knows that he will be fined a few thousand
dollars every time he/she is caught employing someone here illegally, they
won't do it.Funny how liberals believe our government can do
anything (Obamacare, regulate energy, food stamps for everyone, etc.) and yet
enforcing our immigration laws is just "TOO HARD".
Immigrants have no problem to work. I know many who stood in line and paid fees
and then immigrated. However when someone sneaks across the border, they are an
illegal alien and do not have rights to work here. Same in the 24 countries
that I have worked in. The author of this article needs to brush up on the
meaning of an immigrant. Viva LEGAL immigration.
Re: "I am not a liberal – I am a life-long conservative
Republican."You're a liberal. That quality is assigned by
actual beliefs and actions, not by self-declaration.Just ask Eric
VST: "...there are so many illegal residents here (millions of them) that
there is no way on God’s green earth will they ever be sent back to their
home countries."You don't have to SEND them back. Just deny
them jobs, free education and healthcare, and all the other government handouts
and they will go back home all by themselves. They got here on their own, they
can go back without any of our help as well.It is a complete falicy
to think that we must spend millions of dollars in transportation costs and have
to round up every illegal alien in order to solve this problem. We just have to
eliminate all the things that currently draw them to cross our border illegally.
If those things are only available to LEGAL immigrants and other citizens, then
everyone will get in line and follow the immigration process.If you
can sneak in the theater through the side door without a ticket, why pay for one
and wait in line? That might work for a while, but then don't complain when
no one wants to make movies anymore.
I didn't know that "immigrants" were having a problem. In typical
DesNews fashion the editors have carefully included illegal aliens as immigrants
in order to gain sympathy. There is chaos at the border far beyond what the
Border Patrol can deal with. This is being caused by zero interior enforcement
of immigration law by ICE as well as zero enforcement of laws prohibiting the
employment of illegal labor. In addition to zero enforcement we have
also media outlets such as the DesNews giving hope to all South of the Border
that if they can just get across the border they will not be deported, and they
would be right. There is no labor shortage but rather a labor
surplus. If this were not the case unemployment would be less and wages would
be increasing rather than stagnant. When employers, the Chamber of Commerce, and
illegal immigrant sympathizers such as the DesNews support amnesty or
legalization they are encouraging more illegal immigration, making the border
impossible to control. Encouraging more legal and illegal
immigration shows total disregard for the American worker. Wages are a product
of supply and demand.
If the paper truly has a conviction that what it is calling for is morally
right, why the need for euphemisms, such as "immigration reform?" Why
not call it what it really is: a reward for illegality, moral corruption of
children (who are taught that illegality eventually will pay), playing unfair
with the millions around the world who ALSO would like to come to America but
who respect its laws, mockery and abdication of the rule of law, and disregard
for the needs of Americans who suffer as a direct result of illegal immigration?
It isn't about morality; it is about ulterior motivations of
various special interest groups in the state, and propaganda.
Yes, the current immigration system is broken, but who broke it?Answer:
Liberal Democrats who refuse to enforce the law.Is there human suffering?
Yes caused by the same people who broke the system.If you want to
fix the system begin by actually using it.Make it impossible for people
who come here illegally to stay (can't get work, can't get
housing).Implement a reasonable legal immigration system.When
Democrats make it illegal to ask if somebody is a citizen when signing up voters
under "Motor - Voter" you have to know what their goal is.Democrats refuse to enforce the borders and vilify anyone who wants to.Democrats refuse to have any meaningful requirement for proof of citizenship
when signing up to vote.Every time Democrats talk amnesty (comprehensive
immigration reform) illegals flood the borders.Democrats are using these
poor people as pawns in a political game.
@2 bits: So who are these wise people in government who know exactly what kinds
of workers we need and how many of each? I thought conservatives didn't
believe in central planning.Maybe we should look in the mirror when
we are assigning blame for people not being able to make it in their own
countries. Our country distorts global markets for farm produce with all kinds
of farm subsidies and tariffs. The poor Mexican farmer can't compete with
all the cheap subsidized American corn. Is he just supposed to starve? It's
no wonder they come here looking for a job. If we want them to stay in their own
countries, let's level the playing field so they can compete.The reason people get abused is we have these silly laws. Let's get rid
of the bad laws and liberalize immigration policy. I'm not saying we make
them all citizens right away, but at least legitimize them, recognize that they
are growing our economy, allow them to work legally and pay taxes.
To "Shaun" I don't think you understand capitalism. There is not a
shortage of labor, nor is there a shortage of " market driven pay". The
places that offer minimum wage jobs are paying what the market demands. If you
have a position that requires no special skills and does not require a certain
age for that position, and you have 100 people applying for a job you advertise
as minimum wage, you have found the market demand for that pay level for that
job.To "marxist" you are right, they are being exploited.
We should end their exploitation by shipping them back to their countries of
origin.In reading many of the comments here, I see that many have
very short memories. The other day there was an article telling about a woman
who applied over 8 years ago to come here legally. When she finally got word
back, she was told that her child could not come becuase he was over 21. The
boy was 13 when she applied.The problem isn't the businesses,
the problem is the government and the red-tape that has made the process so
Re: "Those who are advocating that illegals have no right to earn a salary
here are not facing reality."Funny how liberals always want us
to "face reality" when it comes to immigration and some of their other
sacramental issues. But, if you engage them about gun rights, taxation and
fiscal policy, voting integrity, Big Government over-regulation, labor and
unemployment, pro-life, particularly late-term abortions, environmental laws and
regulations, etc., etc. -- they're perfectly content to remain proud
residents of an imaginary La-La Land.
@Invisible Hand,I'm not against ALL immigration. Just the kind
where they sneak across the border and we don't have any say, and our
government doesn't even know they are here! They could be a criminal for
all we know...It hurts America (when people not qualified to find
work in Mexico come here). It also hurts Mexico, Nicaragua, etc (if their best
people flea to America). We need encourage some to stay and save their own
country.When you immigrate legally.. the government has some say in
it. When sneak in... they don't. Which is bad for us... and bad for
them.When my ancestors came to America they had to prove they
didn't have any diseases, prove they had some money to support themselves
while they got established, and an education and skills they could use to
support themselves long term and contribute to society.When you
sneak across the border and hide in our country... it's bad for everybody.
YOU tend to get abused (paid poorly) and society tends to get abused (when you
find American streets aren't paved with gold, and you can't support
It's not often that I agree with Esquire, but he is exactly right on every
point here. Well said.@2 bits: It sounds like you are opposed to all
immigration then. We don't want the "best" or the "worst"
so do you want to slam the door on everyone, or do you have some great plan to
define "best" and "worst" and then only accept people who you
define as "just right".Here's the reality. Do we as
Americans want to be able to afford fresh fruits and vegetables as anything
other than a luxury item? That's just one industry among dozens. There are
lots of poor foreigners who would love to work here, it improves their lives and
makes life better here too. Immigrants grow our economy and everybody wins. I
don't understand the paranoia about this.
Article title: "In our opinion: Immigrants need the legal right to
participate in the economy and be paid market wages"LEGAL
immigrants have this right.ILLEGAL immigrants do not have this
right.Can anyone imagine Mexico saying this to their illegal aliens?
Or Canada? Or Japan? Or Germany, Russia, Italy or Greece?No.Problem: America has millions and millions of illegal immigrants.Problem: America has millions and millions of legal citizens without a
job.Solution: send the illegal aliens home and give their jobs to
our legal citizens without a job. If our legal citizens don't want to work
then let them starve.Problem solved.I mean, what a novel
concept....work or go hungry. Sure it's demanding, but reality
is no sissie.
No getting around it. The illegals are criminals the minute they cross the
border. We still allow them to remain and then reward them for their illegal
acts. We have in place procedures for people to enter this country legally. Why
are they allowed to be an exception to our laws? Is it a political problem?
Seems so. The vast amount of money spent could be better used for the
establishment of a realistic and enforceable procedure to be applied to all
people from all nations who seek citizenship within our laws. Our laws were
successful for many decades in creating the diversified citizenry of this
country. All illegals should be deported to their countries of origin and then
allowed to work within our established laws.If the laws are bad we certainly
have enough intelligent law makers who should, laying politics aside, be able to
deal with that. The problem with politicians who use those people as political
fodder needs to be addressed with serious commitment.
Unemployment is high in the US. Unskilled workers are unable to find work
because illegals have taken the jobs. They are willing to work for sub minimum
wages. When was the last time you saw an American working construction?Don't even try to tell me that American's are not willing to do this
work. I know many unemployed construction workers and every project in town is
staffed with illegal aliens.Dear Deseret News, Please
tell us how our liberty is to be preserved when importing illegal alien voters
from south of the border is a cornerstone of the Liberals plan to destroy this
country? The constitution is hanging by a thread and you are filing that thread
away."Democracy is not a permanent form of government. It can
only last until the people discover that they can vote themselves gifts from the
public treasury. From that point forward the majority always votes for the
candidate offering the most, until the nation collapses from financial
mismanagement. A democracy is always followed by a dictatorship." (Alexis
DeToqueville)I never thought that I would see the day when an LDS
owned newspaper would openly support lawlessness.
It is pretty clear from this and past articles that conservative entities like
Deseret News, KSL, and the Sutherland Institute take a very soft line on illegal
immigration, yet so many conservative Utahns reject this brand of soft amnesty.
Why is that? Because conservatives realize that soft amnesty will encourage more
illegal immigration. It will make the problem worse.
To begin with, we need a definition of terms: illegals are not
"immigrants". Immigrants are those who follow the legal immigration
process and are entitled to seek work and work. While I feel sympathy for
illegals, many of whom have dire circumstances in their home country, I have
more sympathy for the millions of citizens and immigrants who cannot find work.
We do need immigration reform, but it should not include amnesty for illegals.
Let them return to their countries and get in line behind those who have paid
the price to be here legally, many of whom have already been "in line"
for years.Let's provide a rational immigration process that
accommodates real needs for our nation's businesses. The fact is, we will
have no idea what those real needs are until the artificial component of
illegals in the workforce is removed, and we can find a natural balance. In the
meantime, we can each do our part by refusing to employ illegals, or any
contractor who employs them.
Legal immigrants and citizens are able to legally work in this country. However,
no one is "entitled" to any job. It needs to be earned first.Illegal immigrants have no right to any job in this country. Only
the most cold-hearted and greedy would demand that a flood of cheap labor be
imported into this country when millions of our citizens continue to struggle
with unemployment.There's no greater treason than to do
something good (such as give American jobs to illegal immigrants) for the wrong
Re: "If we open the gates... the following 2 situations are the likely
outcome."For the record, it's not "if" we open the
gates. The gates are already wide open.Witness the thousands of
unaccompanied children being sent across the wire by desperate Central-American
parents, who are now being dumped by Obama's ICE on the streets of Phoenix
to punish Arizona for standing up to Obama on the amnesty issue.We're in the middle of a new Jimmy Carter-like Mariel boatlift -- just
without the boats.Obama remains committed to booting Carter from his
position as worst modern American president.
Agreed. And let's be honest. You're talking about amnesty. And
you're for it. And you're completely right.
Re: "Immigrants need the legal right to participate in the economy . . .
."Legal immigrants already have that right. They've had it
throughout the history of the Republic. It's guaranteed in the
Constitution. Legal permanent resident aliens have exactly the same right to
participate in the economy as any American.So, the real, hidden
agenda here is amnesty for illegals.It's sad that a
"journalist" would intentionally hide that agenda at the tail end of his
opinion piece, attempting to disingenuously suggest to low-information Utahns
that America discriminates against all immigrants.With the easily
predictable defeat of immigration "reformists," like Eric Cantor,
conservatives will have to be more and more vigilant, making sure the amnesty
issue isn't newspeak-coded or otherwise hidden amongst other high-sounding,
but phony political issues.
IMO... We need to focus on improving the economy, security, and liberty, where
they live, instead of making a path to America.If we open the
gates... the following 2 situations are the likely outcome.1. If the
best people from that country come (as some people pretend is happening now)...
The less educated, less employable people get left behind and become the
majority. Sure some good people get out... but their country goes downhill.2. If the less educated, less employable people are the ones crossing
the border at night with all their possessions in a grocery bag, who can't
find jobs in CostaRica, Nicaragua, or Mexico... and are willing to do ANYTHING,
and take ANY job, at ANY wage in the US... then they gradually become the
majority in our country, and OUR country goes downhill.We should not
be taking the BEST people from these countries (and leaving the rest of the
population to live with drug dealers and corrupt politicians elected by the
dregs of society). And we should not be taking the WORST people from these
countries.. and turning our country into Mexico, or Nicaragua.
I stand with the majority posting here. Legal immigrants have a right to
participate in the economy AND be paid market wages. The trouble is there are
too many illegal aliens flooding our borders, and our useless politicians have
done nothing about that. Although, one of their constitutional responsibilities
is to protect our borders.
The editorial is dead on. I urge a fresh approach to this issue. We need to
make it easy for people to come and provide their services. It will then
reflect reality, encourage a free market system, and cut on the tragic human
impact of the current system.@ RichardB, saying there is plenty of
labor without immigrants is one thing, but it does not reflect reality. Your
entire comment is not correct. I believe it is based on a lack of understanding
of what is going on.Sadly, the analysis of the Cantor defeat, in
that it will shut down any chance of immigration reform, is probably true. The
are few profiles in courage in Congress.
There would be no problem if the illegals were not here. If existing laws were
enforced, there would be fewer illegals to add to the problem.Simple
solution....enforce our laws.
Come on, at least be honest when writing this stuff.Make sure you
point out the you want to just abandon enforcement of our immigration laws, and
to give the same privileges to people who are criminals by coming here in
violation of those laws as to the hard working, play by the rules legal
immigrants.This is as bad as advocating for illegal drug sellers to
be given licenses as pharmacists.Laws apply to all people (or
should, anyway) and people who break some laws do not get the benefits earned by
those who obey the laws. And, criminals who break laws are supposed to be
punished.What next, amnesty for bank robbers and rapists? If not,
why do you discriminate against some criminals and not others?Legal
immigration is welcome and beneficial, but illegal immigration is a criminal act
to be punished, not rewarded by jobs, welfare, housing, amnesty or anything
Undocumented(illegal) immigrants have one right and only one right. That is to
be deported. Immediately.
DN forgot to put Legal in front of Immigrants in the headline, or did they do
that on purpose. This paper is turning into a real lefty.
I'm not in favor of the minimum wage law, but looking at it logically, if
those low wage jobs were about 15 an hour, then many of our citizens would take
them, which would fill the need of low wage workers, and more importent it would
take away the need for the U.S. to have illegal, and massive amounts of third
world immigrants coming here. American workers should come first before any non
citizen gets consideration on anything. And I will say that I as a citizen
would be willing to pay a little extra for the product or service that the 15 an
hour employee would require.
"The U.S. government’s employment of immigrants in detention proves
the point that undocumented workers need legal rights to participate in the
economy, to work and to be paid a market wage – not a prison wage –
for their labors."Certainly use of labor in prison is pure
exploitation - in prison they are not being compensated for the value they add.
It's got to stop. But to say that this freed labor will be paid a
"market" wage working for fast food is open to question. There is ample
collusion among fast food vendors, e.g. McDonalds, Burger King, KFC, etc. as to
what their employees will be paid. In a particular area there will be little
variation. So is this "market" wage a fair wage?If we are
going to turn lose a lot of imprisoned labor to work in fast food, fast food
needs to be unionized to protect workers already there.
There is no labor shortage only shortage of market driven pay. If Mcdonalds or
any business can not find workers for the amount of money they are offering then
they need to raise the wage and/or working conditions. It is simple economics.
Immigrants (legal) have the right to work. People here illegally have no right
under US labor and immigration laws. There is no shortage of low
income workers, there is a shortage of honest businessmen willing to pay the
market rate for legal labor. If they can't find people to work for what
they pay, it is their responsibility to lure workers with higher wages and
better benefits. Greed has left the farms and moved into the city.