truthsandwichIt's ridiculous for any Utah fan to be whining
about BYU's 1984 National Championship, after Utah fans made such a fuss
about how "deserving" Utah 2004 was of being given a chance to play in
the national championship game after the Utes only beat three regular season
opponents with winning records, none with better than a 7-5 record.Even more ridiculous for Utah fans to pretend that the 1944 NCAA tournament
championships banner hanging in the Huntsman Center rafters represents a
"national championship" for a team that finished 1944 with a 6-1 record
versus college teams, after only playing two college teams during the entire
regular season.When the Utes take down the NCAA tourney banner and
give back their Fiesta Bowl trophy, then, and only then, will be consider giving
back their Crystal Football National Championship Trophy.j/k,
because we both know that none of those scenarios will ever happen.Time to move on - none of your jealous whining is ever going to change the
fact that BYU is the proud owner of a Crystal Football National Championship
Trophy and a Heisman Trophy, symbols of the ultimate team and individual
achievements in major college football.
truthsandwichWhat DID happen in 1984 is BYU was selected CONSENSUS
Major College Football National Champion by all FIVE major national selecting
organizations, the exact same organizations that awarded championships in the
same era to Miami, Penn St, and Oklahoma.What DID happen in 1984 is
BYU impressed voters sufficiently to be voted #1 in both the AP and Coaches
polls showing that a majority of national sportswriters and major college
coaches felt that BYU was THE MOST DESERVING team to be chosen 1984 Major
College Football National Champion.It's delightful knowing that
it bothers you so much that your jealous, biased opinion is inconsequential
compared to the opinions that really matter, the sportswriters and coaches who
voted on the 1984 AP and Coaches polls.
..@ wiscougfan continued..BYU being awarded a National Championship
in 84 was ridiculous, but that's more of a knock on the system, not on the
Y. It is equally ridiculous that BYU didn't get the chance to prove
themselves against the best because they earned that. They did the best they
could with what they were given, and for a WAC team from Provo to go undefeated
is a great accomplishment. It also helped people see how awful the system was
and catalyzed change. The roots of this discussion lie in some
less-reasonable fans talking about 84 BYU being EXACTLY the same (you'll
notice they always put 'exactly' in all caps) as, say 2009 Alabama,
dominating the best teams in the country, because the crystal footballs look the
same. They are worlds apart. Simply put, it is ridiculous for any
team to be termed "National Champions" when their crowning achievement
was beating the 24th best team in the country, along with a schedule full of the
worst. I have yet to see an example of a NC in any major sport that even comes
close to that. I would be curious to see one.
@WiscougarfanThank you for the thoughtful response- this is a breath
of fresh air. When this topic comes up, I usually only get passionate responses
like Skywalker's above, which miss the point entirely.I have
learned something as a result of your last comment, so again thank you. There
will probably be some things we always disagree on, but some things we can agree
on as well.The closest comparison you gave to '84, or a team
winning the Coaches Trophy without beating good teams, was 1990 Georgia Tech, so
I looked them up. Turns out they beat 3 ranked teams, including #1 Virginia at
VA (VA was still #1 until the 8th week of the season when they met GT, finished
ranked 23rd) and End-Of-Season 9TH ranked Clemson. They then went on to beat
#19 Nebraska in the Citrus Bowl (Nebraska finished 2nd in the big 8 behind NC
Colorado and ahead of #17 Oklahoma). This is a much more impressive season than
84 BYU. I am still looking for anything that even comes close.
@Skywalker"NOBODY can say for sure whether BYU 1984 would have
won the National Championship "by today's standard"Sports Illustrated, Robbie Bosco, and reasonable thinkers excepted."Can you definitively prove that BYU wouldn't have beaten whoever
they played in the championship?"Nope. I can't prove they
wouldn't have won the championship game last year if they had the chance to
play in it. Guess they should be considered NC for last year too?"What MIGHT have happened in 1984 is pure speculation"Exactly. So why are you speculating? I'm talking about facts; what did or
did not happen. What didn't happen is BYU beating any good teams or
winning any major bowls."BYU won the National Championship based
on the standards of 1984 - that is an incontrovertible FACT!"Yes
it is, and you've never seen me argue it. What you have seen me do, which
has bothered you so much, is point out how ridiculous it was. They changed the
entire system, partly as a result.BYU beat the worst teams in
college football, then beat a bad team from a bad conference in a non-major
bowl. National Championship by today's standards? Nope.
Let me finish answering your questions..."And are there any
other examples (maybe 2 or more) of a disparity as great as between today's
standards of a NC and what happened in 84? Or in other words, have any other
teams been crowned champs without beating a single top 20 team? Or playing any
of the top competition? In any major college sport? Sincere question."First, BYU did play one team (Air Force) that finished ranked. 1990 is one year that meets your criteria. One of the national champs was
Georgia Tech. They also only played one team that finished the season ranked in
the top 20. They even had a tie that season so technically BYU had a stronger
championship season. However, they weren't the consensus champs that
season. Some services had Colorado (10-1-1) as the #1. Colorado did a have a
strong SOS but had two controversial wins and many believe they didn’t
deserve the national title. Alabama claims they were the 1941 champs
despite finishing the season ranked #20 (5th in SEC). Those are a
couple examples but honestly BYU did have the weakest SOS of any championship
team. Again, taken in context (24 straight wins, consistently ranked) it's
Re: TruthsandwichYou're right that BYU most likely had the
worst SOS of any national champion team in the modern era. However,
since 1950 there have been a total of 91 NCAA football champions (for 64
seasons). That means nearly one third of all national champions are split or
contested. BYU in 1984 is not one of those 27 contested champions; they are a
legitimate NC, unanimously agreed upon by all the major polls and services.
Why, if their schedule was so weak? It probably has to do with the fact that
they won 24 straight games, a feat that has ever been accomplished by only a
handful of teams. Maybe it’s because they were one of the top 5-15 teams
in the country several years in a row. They did beat a #3 team (Pitt) early in
the season (that finished with a horrible record, but that might be attributed
to their early deflating loss to the cougars). They also beat a conference
champion (Tulsa). Whatever the reasons, BYU was the undisputed
champ. Also, BYU is now the only NCAA champ without any major NCAA violations
(socks don't count).
truthsandwichThe simple truth is NOBODY can say for sure whether BYU
1984 would have won the National Championship "by today's
standard".Can you definitively prove that the #1-ranked in the
AP AND Coaches polls wouldn't have been invited to the BCS championship
game?Can you definitively prove that BYU wouldn't have beaten
whoever they played in the BCS championship?If you claim you can,
then you're not being honest, because NOBODY can give concrete evidence of
what would have happened in 1984 based on today's standards.SOS
is only ONE component of the formula and is far from the definitive
component.What MIGHT have happened in 1984 is pure speculation? If
you were trying to prove what you're claiming in a court of law, your case
wouldn't even get to trial for lack of evidence.The only thing
that really matters is this, BYU did win the 1984 Major College Football
National Championship based on the standards of 1984 - that is an
@wiscougarfanThank you for that response, it was one of the more
reasonable I've heard on the subject. You are incorrect on at least two
points though: 'most byu fans won't contest that statement' and
'based on 'one' person' Look no further than this thread to
see plenty of evidence to the contrary.You may be surprised to learn
you are seriously the first BYU fan (other than Robbie Bosco) I've heard
admit it would not be a NC by today's standards. Sincere props to you for
that. Questions I have: Is it really "most" NC prior to the
BCS period, or just a few? And are there any other examples (maybe 2 or more) of
a disparity as great as between today's standards of a NC and what happened
in 84? Or in other words, have any other teams been crowned champs without
beating a single top 20 team? Or playing any of the top competition? In any
major college sport? Sincere question.
RE: truthsandwich"...it wouldn't be an NC by today's
standards".Most BYU fans won't contest that statement. But
it is a little disingenuous given the context. Most NC prior to the BCS era
would not have been National Champions by today's standards. Football and
the analysis of team strength has come a long way in the last twenty years (the
technology age). "the touchiness on the subject from Y fans
speaks volumes"You making claims about an entire fan base based
on one persons reasonable response to your trolling also speaks volumes.
"Of course you haven't, because it would expose your 1984 arguments as
nothing but a whiny, jealous tantrum."The fact that you keep
bringing up a basketball tournament from the 40's to justify BYU's
'national championship' only exposes your own defensiveness about the
topic. I'm simply pointing out a few relevant facts about
'84 (BYU not beating any good teams, barely beating a bad bowl opponent
after a season full of nobodies, Sports Illustrated and even Bosco agreeing that
it wouldn't be an NC by today's standards)to contrast it's
legitimacy against the modern era's National Championships along with,
well, really every other national championship in any major sport. Honestly, the touchiness on the subject from Y fans speaks volumes.
distortedtruth"I actually haven't said anything at all
about basketball or 1944 yet."Of course you haven't,
because it would expose your 1984 arguments as nothing but a whiny, jealous
@ND95CA"BYU beat a better team in 1984, Air Force(8-4) #24 in
the Final AP Poll, stomped Va Tech in their bowl, than Utah did in 2004,
Pittsburgh(8-4) #25 in the Final AP Poll, stomped by Utah in their bowl."Justifying BYU's "championship" by comparing them to a team
who didn't win a championship says a lot about your argument."Sorry if that strikes a tender cord, just pointing out some things that
most Utah fans, including yourself, don't seem to be aware of regarding
1944."I actually haven't said anything at all about
basketball or 1944 yet. Why so frantic and emotional?
truthsandwichBYU beat a better team in 1984, Air Force(8-4) #24 in
the Final AP Poll, stomped Va Tech in their bowl, than Utah did in 2004,
Pittsburgh(8-4) #25 in the Final AP Poll, stomped by Utah in their bowl.by the way,If strength of schedule had mattered as much then
as it does now, Utah wouldn't have even been invited to the 1944 NIT or
NCAA tournaments.Sorry if that strikes a tender cord, just pointing
out some things that most Utah fans, including yourself, don't seem to be
aware of regarding 1944.
1984 vs 1944In 1984, BYU played an entire schedule of D1 major
college football teams, including a team that finished #24 in the Final AP poll,
went 13-0, won a D1 conference championship, was ranked #1 in both major polls
from mid-November to the end of the season, finished the season on a 24-game
winning, and was heavily scrutinized as to their worthiness to win the national
championship by the national media and fans from across the country, and was
still selected as the most deserving team to be chosen 1984 National Champions
by all five major college football organizations.In 1944, Utah
played an entire schedule of pickup games, only beat two actual college teams
during the regular season, didn't play in a conference, lost in the opening
round of the premier tournament of the day, wasn't ranked in a single poll,
finished 6-1 against college teams made up of freshmen and a few sophomores, and
received no scrutiny at all from the national media because every one was
focused on fighting a world war, and wasn't officially declared
"national champion" by any official organization of the day.
@rockwell"Each voter is allowed to use whatever criteria they
choose, and it's very obvious that voters have always considered SOS as one
of their criteria. Your feeble, jealous attempt to rewrite history is
laughable!"Sorry if I struck a tender cord, I'm not trying
to make things personal and certainly not trying to rewrite history. I'm
just pointing out some things that most BYU fans, including yourself, don't
seem to be aware of regarding 1984. 'If strength of schedule
had mattered as much then as it does now, BYU would not have been the national
champions in 1984' -Sports IllustratedBYU
didn't beat a great team in a major bowl, as would be required today. That
would be what Utah did in 2008, after beating several good teams during the
season. BYU beat 0 good teams in 1984.
truthsandwichThe AP National Championship is decided in exactly the
same way as it was in 1984 or 1936, by a simple majority of the voters selecting
the team that each feels is most deserving of being the national champion for
that particular season.Each voter is allowed to use whatever
criteria they choose, and it's very obvious that voters have always
considered SOS as one of their criteria.In 2003, the AP completely
rejected the opinion of the BCS, and chose USC as their national champion, a
team that didn't even play in the BCS championship game.Your
feeble, jealous attempt to rewrite history is laughable.Immediately
after the BYU-Michigan game, when a sportswriter asked Bosco if he felt that BYU
deserved to be #1, Robbie responded emphatically "YES"!BYU
was considered to be THE MOST DESERVING team to be selected 1984 National
Champion by all 5 major college football organizations of the day.It's funny that Utah fans worry so much about 1984, but then pretend that
Utah's 1944 banner is just as meaningful as an NCAA Championship banner
@lonestar"The ultimate team achievement in major college
football is winning a national championship"Much more so today,
under a system where strength of schedule matters and we have a national
championship game. Hardly anyone doubts Florida State's supremacy last
year, but remember in '84 a lot of national media was skeptical and even
disrespectful of BYU's "national championship."BYU
spent a season beating the worst teams college football had to offer,
culminating in beating a bad team from a bad conference in a non-major bowl.
Definitely not a title by today's standards, according to Sports
Illustrated and even Robbie Bosco himself. BYU has certainly never
come close to winning a National Championship game.
UteologyWho cares what U have "quested" for?The
ultimate team achievement in major college football is winning a national
championship: - BYU has been there, done that- Utah
hasn't even come closeThe ultimate individual achievement is
winning the Heisman Trophy:- BYU has been there, done that-
Utah hasn't even come closeEVERYTHING else, including playing
in a major bowl, is ancillary to the ultimate achievements.
If more money is to be made with smaller conferences, would that not suggest
that going independent would mean all the money would go to your school. The 5
power conferences should break up and all the Elite programs within those
conferences should go independent and form the Independent Elite and watch the
money flow to just a few schools. There would be no need to have wannabes tag
along at the expense of the Elite. They could schedule teams at will and the
playoffs would be in their pockets. No need to share with subpar teams in a
conference.Money is everything in college football today.
Stop torturing cougar fans (kidding, go ahead and do it), this is never going to
happen, ever, ever, ever. Seriously, this month alone the Des News has gone
above and beyond with numerous articles of "hope" to be in a major
conference. As many national media outlets have reported, most find BYU to be
too difficult to work with. Why would the PAC-12 want another team from Utah,
they already have one. In all reality, there are schools that make sense, BYU
and Boise really do not. San Diego State probably has a much better chance of
joining the PAC-12 if expansion were to happen than anyone. Location just makes
sense. Also, UNLV could be attractive based on location and their basketball
history and Fresno State, Hawaii, New Mexico, or Air Force could be candidates.
I don't see the PAC-12 going to 14 or 16. Much more revenue for each school
when the number of schools in a conference is lower!
Go Utes! Go Yale!Salt Lake City, UT@ Zona Zone"By the way, as an ASU guy, let me make this clear: Utah doesn't
belong in our conference!"Says the ASU fan on a DNews comment
board regarding an article which is trolling for cougar commentary because
they're desperate and grasping at straws. Says the ASU fan, who was also
nail-biting the entire game at RES last season. More of that nail-biting to
come, Zoner!--------------And as an ASU fan she calls
herself Zona, a name for the rival team down south (aka University of Arizona,
aka Zona Basketball).That was priceless Ducky!
Brio and others: Fans of all schools, especially in the Wasatch front, like to
read about all of the schools in their areas. They also like to comment on those
articles. Let them alone. They have their own opinions so let them opine all
they want. We can do the same, but let's be positive in doing so.
The term "mid-majors" is akin to racism. It's a put-down. It's
name calling. It's used by the elite so-called "Big 5" conference
to position themselves as superior. There are some 125 D-1 schools and they
should all have the same access to the opportunities available. Play fair Big
10, Big 12, PAC 12, ACC and SEC!
@ Zona Zone"By the way, as an ASU guy, let me make this clear:
Utah doesn't belong in our conference!"Says the ASU fan on
a DNews comment board regarding an article which is trolling for cougar
commentary because they're desperate and grasping at straws. Says the ASU
fan, who was also nail-biting the entire game at RES last season. More of that
nail-biting to come, Zoner!
All the talk seems to be about the 5 Power Conferences having 14 teams and to do
that some of the conferences need to add a couple to reach 14.Question I
have is what would prevent the 5 Power Conferences from getting rid of the
schools that under perform in football. It seems reasonable that the 5 Power
Conferences would want the best in the country. If this were to happen maybe all
the schools in the Rocky Mountain Region would be left out.
I have no issues with the current system. BYU has a great TV contract and
controls their destiny. While the Utes are like that little brother
tagging along his older brothers--yet not knowing he is
smaller/slower/inferior--gets beat up on, and yet is perfectly happy being
picked last as long as they play with him.I applaud BYU for fighting for
what they can control, yet accepting of what they can't.
@CougsndawgsTo clarify, Utah has never "Quested" for
anything BYU has done in the BCS era. Zero! Zilch! Nil! Nada!The
ONLY think BYU has over Utah during this era is ONE more top 25 finish. But
Utah has more impressive rankings, including the highest ranked mid-major team
under BCS rules with 16 first place AP votes.
Will litigation improve byu's situation?
Finally someone (poyman) who understands at least in part, the nuances of legal
battles that lie before any actual organized effort to amalgamate the P5 group
into a real legal entity. At this time, it is a media creation, nothing more.
There are serious problems for a P5 exclusionary cartel:1) 1983
SCOTUS upheld Burciaga Decision - ONLY BYU and Notre Dame as NCAA Members are
actually in full intended compliance with it at this time.2)
Interstate Commerce and Equal Justice Violations. CFB is BIG BUSINESS executed
across interstate lines. Example: State agents of Ohio (Ohio State) cannot
forbid Nevada businesses or state agents (UNLV) or private institutions (BYU)
from competing directly against them for business (Big Bowl Revenue). Doing that
as part of an exclusionary cartel is illegal. The NCAA provides a tacit umbrella
because IT ALONE determines what constitutes a 'major program' and not
the mythological P5 which has no charter, no commissioner, no signatory agent of
reciprocity, no office or other actual "legal" status. The moment it
does, it violates federal law.3) Federal Tax Codes that would
immediately begin taxing P5 Revenues & athletes on scholarship benefits
outside the NCAA.
Clark W. GriswoldUnfortunately for U, the Utes haven't proven
that they're capable of actually competing in the conference.Utah is just like the football programs of Indiana, Duke, Vanderbilt and other
big boy conference bottom dwellers, living off of the spoils of the actual big
boys of their conference.4-5, 3-6, 2-7 says it all
@ Zona Zone"By the way, as an ASU guy, let me make this clear:
Utah doesn't belong in our conference!"Let me make this
clear so you can understand. The PAC-10 presidents and chancellors and athletic
directors all voted unanimously to admit Utah and Colorado into the conference.
Those schools belong, that's why they were admitted! It doesn't matter
what you think!
Zona ZoneMesa, AZ"By the way, as an ASU guy, let me make
this clear: Utah doesn't belong in our conference!"LOL!
What you really mean to say is that as an ASU guy who reads the Deseret News and
comments on byu, "Utah doesn't belong in our conference."Not sure what you mean by "our conference." You realize, I'm
sure, that the term "our" includes the Utes and the Utes completely
disagree. We love "our" conference!
While we are it, the Pac-12 should create a second conference, Pac-12 II, and
each year, the last place football from the PAC-12 gets relegated, and the first
place from team from Pac-12 II gets promoted. That way, BYU and Utah could be
swapping each other out of the Pac-12 every year. By the way, as an
ASU guy, let me make this clear: Utah doesn't belong in our conference!
Poyman:Many people have pointed to the fact that the P5 are sick of the
NCAA and want a clean break from it. That's why I believe exclusion will
legally take place because parameters will be put in place to ensure exclusion.
IMHO I believe conferences themselves with their socialist economies of equal
revenue sharing despite the fact the big dogs bring a lot more to the table will
never survive the test of time. I believe you will see more elitism as big time
programs further seperate themselves from the bottom feeders. Whether this
becomes a conference of "independent" programs or how that will look
I'm not sure. I just know that the USCs, Ohio States, and Alabamas of the
world will not be ok with "equal shares" in the long run.
I can't imagine a school were creationism is a fact and climate change is a
myth being part of the PAC-12, regardless of their "world-wide
audience". BYU fits in the Big 12, only Texas is as arrogant."I’ll tell you point blank, a lot of people think Texas is arrogant.
Some Big 12 people think BYU is arrogant, as well. These are perceptions that
have to be overcome before BYU, in my mind, gets a serious audience with people
in the Big 12." -- American-Statesman
Does anyone really think that if byu joined a conference, any conference, they
wouldn't be on tv?Or that if they joined a mid-major
conference, they wouldn't be able to schedule just as many P5 opponents as
they do now as an independent?
ProudUte:I wasn't talking about why BYU isn't in a P5 conference
I was addressing Perspective's notion that Utah has been more significant
this century...can't believe that didn't penetrate. Btw, most of this
is entertaining to me as well. I've been a UGA fan since their national
championship with Heisman Troohy Winner Hershel Walker. I lived there growing up
so I know all about big time football, and trust me when I say that neither BYU
or Utah are big time. That's why I said neither program is really
"looking up" at the other. Neither program is elite and probably never
will be...that's the reality I've accepted as a BYU fan. Question is
can Utah fans ever accept it, or will they continue with delusions of grandeur?
Good plan, Ken. We'll---ahh--we'll get back to you on that.--The Pac
I'm not a Utah fan, but am big on the Pac-12 and closely tied into
what's happening inside. The reality is that the Pac-12, if it were to
expand, would have no interest in BYU. The conference would only add schools
that (1) were represented in all major sports, (2) added a significant new
television footprint, (3) were AAU research-oriented universities (a prime
condition to Pac presidents), and likely also (4) enhanced the Pac-12's
current national TV profile by expanding into the Central Time Zone to allow for
earlier starts (noon EST) for football and basketball. TV is a major ruling
force in this What we're talking about here are schools like Texas or
Kansas, not BYU, not Boise State (laughable academics), and not any school
represented only in football.The bottom line? Unless there's a
major shakeup across the board with Power Five schools, the Pac-12 will likely
stay at twelve schools. If BYU does go to a Power Five conference, which I
personally have no problem with and might like to see, it would have to be the
@ scottCommon sense would tell you that big brother always thumps
little brother.4 in a row9 of the last 1257-34-4
overallBig brothers don't get beat up by little brothers on a
regular basis. Utah OWNS its little brother (BYU)BYU can
enjoy their little trophies and live in the past since they can't beat Utah
anymore. That's all they have left!
@cougardawgYour opinion that the P5 can be excluded from top
programs that are non-P5 doesn't pass muster in my opinion... The title of
the playoffs is "NCAA Championship" not "NCAA Research Institutions
Championship"... This is about football and not curriculum... Conferences
have preferences on curriculum but not the NCAA...But even if we
were to say that Research Institutions are the only Institutions who can play
for the NCAA Championship the conferences and the P5 Organizations have a big
problem... Many of them are no more Research Institutions than those who are
excluded... I don't think that division works...
@tomahawk redYour comments are always entertaining... you say what
you want and never let facts, precedents, rules and laws get in the way of your
logic...So you don't think anyone or any agency or any court
can tell businesses how they have to conduct their business... If you happen to
know any folks that actually run businesses you ought to run that by them...
After they finish laughing (if they are friends) they will set you straight...
Our laws are filled with restrictions and regulations designed to
maintain fairness in competition and to protect those who are unfairly
compromised in their ability to compete... Anti-Trust (which means that the
majority cannot deprive or attack the minority to gain an unfair advantage) is
very much a law that is enforced in the United States... And my novice opinion
is that the P5 movement flies in the face of this law...Your point
on Religion Exclusion vs state against state exclusion is a violation title VII
which puts minorities and religions in a protected class... You can't
discriminate against someone's color, handicap, or religion if reasonable
accommodation can be made.BYU and BSU wins this challenge.
It is really simple utah fans, your school is only the second best school in the
state academically, your school is third best in the state athletically and your
tuition is to high.You were a second or third choice for the conference
and you were only chosen for the local tv market. I'm sorry but even in a
mid level conference BYU still would outplay and outdraw the Utes on most dayes.
Darren RoweHeber City, UT"Either BYU has way more fans
than utah, or utah fans care about BYU way more than BYU fans care about utah.
I'm going to go with both."Well, Darren, the last 3 or 4
weeks have seen some great stories about byu. No drama over on the Utah
pages...certainly nothing like we have here. I say, let the local press fuel
speculation. Let byu fans talk about being entitled to be in a P5 conference
while one conference after another says...byWho?. This is priceless
entertainment! Yep, byu is the hottest thing going right now.
Quest for attention...accomplished!
Wow. 104 comments when I commented, and I'm sure there will be many more
comments before this is even posted. Proving that lots of people care about
BYU.I looked through the last week of utah articles to see which had
the most comments. It was 44, but that was the article on transferring QB's
which was also tied to BYU, USU and SUU. The most on a purely-utah article was
14 (The article about Travis Wilson's health).Think about that.
A hypothetical story about what MIGHT happen for BYU had tons of people throwing
in their thoughts on the topic.News about utah's starting
QB's health, which could affect their entire season, was an article that
hardly anyone cared about.I know that comments on an article is a
relatively inexact way to show which program the most people care about. But it
is still a decent rule of thumb.Either BYU has way more fans than
utah, or utah fans care about BYU way more than BYU fans care about utah.
I'm going to go with both.Regardless of the reason, there are a
lot more people who care about BYU than utah.
@Cougsndawgs,It's not that you don't have those awards,
it's just that it doesn't overcome the universally accepted notion
you're more of nuisance than you what you bring to the table.
Can't believe it hasn't penetrated yet.
No need to continue pointless dialogue. Red will stay red, blue will stay
blue.The U has its new direction, the Y has its historical
direction, with low probability the two teams will ever be in the same
conference. Solution: Let time demonstrate the separation and
quality between the two programs.PAC12 versus independence.... One
program is evolving, one is in Desperate Search mode.BTW, has Busby
resurfaced yet? It is a wonder that a school with church affiliation, honor
code, yada yada yada removes a loyal long-term program manager who then falls
off the radar. But not to worry, the deeper they try to hide him, the more fun
the media will have finding him.Indeed, the future of both programs
will be interesting to observe as they evolve in opposite and otherwise varying
directions.No need to press in this forum. Let time tell the tale.
MP:To clarify, don't forget that Luke staley won the Doak Walker
award this century...Utah has won any such award....never. BYU has more top 25
finishes this century than Utah. BYU has won just as many conference
championships this century as Utah. Utah does have two BCS victories, which is
significant. Utah is literally "little" when compared to BYU in terms of
fanbase & national branding. I honestly don't believe either program is
"looking up" to the other at this point. Could that change? Certainly,
but I don't see that as the case now.Go Cougs!Go Dawgs!
scottAlpine, UTbyu's accomplishments you refer to were
news last century. byu is looking up...way up at the Utes these
days. In fact, it is clear that byu wants to be Utah. You need to
keep up, bro.
Elmer FuddCommon sense would tell you that the program
that had ELEVEN AP Top 25 finishes, before the Utes cracked the AP poll for the
very first time, the program that's won a National
Championship, a Heisman Trophy, 15 National Individual Awards, and
has had 6 National Hall of Fame Players is the big brother of
the program that's never won a single national award of any kind.
ExecutorIohWest Jordan, UTGood grief, where did you come up
with the nonsense you put in your two posts above? The stories you told are
quite...well...remarkable. Thanks for the history lesson but really...you
shouldn't have bothered.
BYU will have to earn a spot in the top 64-70 teams. Right now they are bigger
and have a better reputation than approximately 50-60% of the self described
"power conference" teams. BYU has better facilities than probably 50%
of the "power conference" teams, with larger football and basketball
stadium than probably 80% of them. They have over twice as many fans as Utah
(300K vs 700K), and they are ranked much higher on graduate salary (#78 vs. 228)
Historically, Our overall athletic program would be comparable to the upper
tier of the PAC-12. Utah's overall athletic program is weak and has always
been mediocre. However, at the end of the day, BYU may or may not
get invited. Only time will tell. They could easily dismantle the football
program and use the money and space to enhance their already 1st class
education. Outside of an average Medical School in SLC and post grad research,
the Utes really are a mediocre institution for the 98% of their undergrads. BYU will need 2-3 really good years in Football and Basketball to get
invited. If they do that's great if not the University will move onto
bigger more important goals.
@ CougarSunDevil"It wasn't until Utah fans started
demeaning and belittling their older brother (BYU) when they went to the PAC to
point out Utah's place"BYU the older brother? LoL. Common sense would tell you that the school that was established first
is the older brother. In this case: University of Utah - 1850Brigham Young University - 1875Utah is and always will be the
older (big) brother to BYU.
BlueHuskyMission Viejo, CA"After the Rose Bowl, where do
PAC-12 teams play? Holiday. Poinsettia. Vegas. Fight Hunger. Liberty. New
Mexico."Answer: The Pac-12 plays wherever they want. For that
reason, byu had to beg for a brand new bowl for 2014. The Fight Hunger bowl is
now a first class Pac-12 venue.
@CougsundevilJust how is Utah "keeping others out now"? BYU
has kept it self out for a number of reasons. Telling a conference what days you
will, and will not play on doesn't help. Utah took a cut in TV shares to
get in and get to where it is. The Big Boy table is a nice analogy though.Y Grad / Y DadAnytime Bro! Hope all is well in the
tri-cities.I'm done; thenks for the dialogue folks; and a good
evening to all!
Back in 2003-2004, Urban Meyer created the "Mighty Utah Student Section"
(MUSS) to be able to fill seats at RES. The university would give away tickets
to students, even high school students in the area just to fill the seats - all
in a 40,000 seat stadium.Jump forward ten years... Utah is in the
Pac-12 playing against top, storied programs and they continue to fill the
student section by giving away tickets to the football games. BYU fills their
student section of their 62,000 seat stadium by selling tickets. Even students
last year had to pay $135 for season tickets, and they still filled the
seats.In economics this is a supply/demand issue and indicates the
strength of the brand. For those BYU-haters that think that BYU is irrelevant,
imagine for a minute what would happen to the MUSS, if students had to pay $135
@DN Ken DriggsWhy don't you guys have better things to do. Like
go out at pac12 and big 12 office and spy on them for a while and see Something
is really going on. Stop this What IF! And stay in touch with Tom Holmoe for any
new stuff going on his end.
@TomahawkRed "And proof that Utah is (and has always been) the state's
flagship institution, academically and athletically."Hahahahahahaha! Lol, wow, that was a good one, TR! Didn't know you to
be so funny!Oh wait...you were being serious? Oh...Well, that's just as funny! Good ol' Ute fans...always good for a
laugh :)Go Cougars!
I love how the BYU-haters think that BYU went independent as a knee jerk
response. On the contrary, in 2007 both Utah and BYU went to Craig Thompson,
the MWC commish and told him that they were unhappy carrying the conference in
terms of revenue. If you watched the MTN, nearly all advertisements were for
Utah-based businesses. When Thompson turned a deaf ear, both schools walked out
and formulated a plan. Utah began to court the Pac-12 by investing more in
research and in their Med school. BYU began IT/AV upgrades of all of its
facilities and began construction of their own broadcast center. In 2009, when
all the shuffle went down, Utah had their research status in place and contacts
with the Pac-12 (BYU was also getting bad press because of Prop-8), but then BYU
had a multi-million dollar broadcast facility that some argued was one of the
best west of the Mississippi. None of that, Utah or BYU was a knee
jerk response. It was a plan and was executed several years before 2009.
Reason so many ute fans are commenting, is what do they have to comment about?
Another 5-7 season ahead of them? Whitt getting fired after the coming season?
2014 Season = BYU 10-2 and Utes 4-8 write it down...
I stopped reading the article and it lost all credibility when it was suggested
that Boise State would become a member of the PAC 12. What?? The academic
elites like Stanford, Cal, Washington and UCLA associating with Boise State?
Never will happen. There is more to conference alignment than athletic teams.
The Presidents of the universities send out the invitations not the AD's,
coaches or fans.
Spokane UteSpokane, WAThanks for the noogie, bro!
CougarSunDevilTake a deep breath, no need to take things so
seriously. You appear to have a severe dislike for Utah; we get it. You can call
me SpokaneUteSeahawk if you would like; I won't get offended.
@U-PACOregon State and WSU don't have medical schools. Cal does
not have a med school. Oregon kind of has one, but it is located in Portland.
ASU does not have a med school.@Everybody elseThe Power5 idea
will be a fail. The issue is paying the jocks. Manziel wants to get money from
his jersey sales. What about the 65 other guys on the team? Playing players as
an NFL minor league? Can Utah afford that? Don't think so. The suit against
the NCAA opened today. We'll know in a couple of years after the
appeals.Meanwhile, the dozen or so "big boys" will continue
to dominate the big bowls and the rest of the Power 5 conferences will continue
to lose money. And play in the other bowls against one of the other 260+ NCAA
Div 1 teams. After the Rose Bowl, where do PAC-12 teams play? Holiday.
Poinsettia. Vegas. Fight Hunger. Liberty. New Mexico. Playing the lowly unwashed
teams. Except Utah, apparently, who can't qualify for one of those
bowls.I'm good with that.
CougsndawgsWest Point , UTWhat if the day actually comes when
BYU is rendered to a lower division or worse, folds up their program
altogether?-----------The fact that you even typed that
remark is all the proof in the world supporting why you cheer for a second-rate
football team. And proof that Utah is (and has always been) the state's
flagship institution, academically and athletically.The fact that
it's even a possibility that your team may one day shut down entirely says
it all.LOL indeed.ha ha ha
TR"The same threat has also been given in football for the last
five years, only to have Y fans scurry for cover after the final whistle
blows... as you realize your chest-beating and empty threats have once again
embarrassed you... not to return for at least two weeks. Or you take
a business trip to Tulsa.Same song, second verse. In reality, BYU
can't beat Utah anymore. And apparently, you missed last year's
beatdown that was relentlessly laid on your team at the hands of the Utes.All bark. No bite.At all."I think you have
me mixed up with the wrong guy. I don't know what you're talking
about. Tulsa? I've never been. I do have a life, and I don't come here
every single day and make comments about another team that I don't cheer
for. Sorry. And yes, if BYU's loss to Utah by less than a touchdown is a
beat down, then ASU's victory over Utah by a similar margin is also a beat
down. I'm just using the same logic brother.
CougarSunDevilPhoenix, AZ"But congrats to all the ute
fans, you've successfully changed the narrative to being about me instead
of the fact that 3 years ago, Utah was the team who was looking for respect from
the power (then) six."You are really on a roll, CougarSunDevil.
What do you mean by "looking for respect"? What was Utah doing 3 years
ago to look for respect? Please explain.
Tomahawk Red"It's pathetic to the extreme to whine and moan
that BYU is somehow OWED all this money and big boy football access. The ironic
thing, however, is that I am certain these same BYU fans shouting
"anti-trust!" at the top of their lungs would be the first to turn
around and exclude all of the other mid-majors the second BYU got in.Because the case you're making applies to every single mid-major out
there. So if BYU gets in based on that, they all get in... including Wyoming,
New Mexico and Utah State. Yet I am certain that BYU fans would do everything
they could to keep those schools out.It's called
hypocrisy."And it's exactly, to a tee, what Utah is doing.
Utah cried about not being at the table, and doing everything to keep others out
CougsndawgsWest Point , UTWhat makes me laugh is that Utah fans are
enjoying BYUs discomfort and enjoying BYU being left out. They hope for a day
when they are the lone wolf and can claim superiority in the state of Utah.---------Already happened. More than 100 years ago.BYU has always played second fiddle.lol!
Spokeane Ute"I'm thinking of changing my name to
SpokaneUteHuskyBruinTrojanDuck. What do you think? I couldn't lose!"Too bad you decided to join your other ute fans. You usually post
respectable and decent posts. Oh, and you'd have to take Ute
out to make your post accurate. But congrats to all the ute fans,
you've successfully changed the narrative to being about me instead of the
fact that 3 years ago, Utah was the team who was looking for respect from the
power (then) six. Now that Utah is sitting at the big boy table with their much
older and successful brethren, you're looking over your shoulder at your
other brothers and making faces at them. All the while, everyone else at the big
boy table are rolling their eyes and winning games left and right against you.
No wonder you're boasting about the size of table you're
sitting at and not about the food you provided or how long you've been at
BrioAlpine, UTThis ultra-concern and attention by mostly Ute
fans (BYU's traditional rival) is the ultimate compliment to BYU sports.
--------Ha ha, fine. Take it. Take that
self-manufactured "compliment" if it makes you feel any better, which it
obviously does.Especially seeing as how compliments are coming from
NO WHERE else. Certainly not the power conferences, or anyone else in college
football.No power conferenceNo respectNo decent home
gamesDwindling hope for the futurePossible sanctions comingStill on the outside looking in, now on par with Utah StateBut at
least you've got that "ultimate compliment."LOL
CougarSunDevilPhoenix, AZCan't wait to dismantle your
"team" on November 1st, you know, like we've done since 1977.---------Boy who cried wolf.The same threat has
also been given in football for the last five years, only to have Y fans scurry
for cover after the final whistle blows... as you realize your chest-beating and
empty threats have once again embarrassed you... not to return for at least two
weeks. Or you take a business trip to Tulsa.Same song,
second verse. In reality, BYU can't beat Utah anymore. And apparently, you
missed last year's beatdown that was relentlessly laid on your team at the
hands of the Utes.All bark. No bite.At all.
WA_Alum&Dad:Question - would you, as a BYU fan, supported Jabari
Parker only playing one year at BYU, before declaring for the NBA draft?My hunch is your answer would "Yes!"
@cougs"What's next...the PAC12 will decide that Utah needs
5 downs to compete against Oregon and USC instead of 4?"Was it
weird that you were forced to leave Stanford out of that sentence, even though
they were better than USC last year?By your logic, how many downs
would BYU need to be competitive against Utah?It must be sad for Y
fans to be relegated to glomming onto the best teams in the PAC to talk trash
poymanLincoln City, ORIt's just a matter of time before
the Boise States, the BYUs, and others ask a judge to level the playing field so
to speak... And I believe this challenge will be successful.-----------More wishful thinking.The problem is 1) BYU
is not a state school and 2) no one has any authority to tell any company or
organization what they must or must not do with their business.It's pathetic to the extreme to whine and moan that BYU is somehow OWED
all this money and big boy football access. The ironic thing, however, is that I
am certain these same BYU fans shouting "anti-trust!" at the top of
their lungs would be the first to turn around and exclude all of the other
mid-majors the second BYU got in.Because the case you're making
applies to every single mid-major out there. So if BYU gets in based on that,
they all get in... including Wyoming, New Mexico and Utah State. Yet I am
certain that BYU fans would do everything they could to keep those schools
out.It's called hypocrisy.
With its corruption and inequities expanding, collegiate sports needs to stop
being the de-facto minor leagues for the NFL and the NBA. And the only way that
happens is if the US congress forces it. The chances of that happening go way
up as "the haves" in college football do everything in their power to
ensure and expand the inequities in money and access that have been in place for
generations. I agree that it is very likely this situation will
eventually end up decided in courts and law. If that were to happen, college
football and basketball would still be just fine. the pageantry and passion
that made basketball and football eclipse baseball as the most popular national
sports would continue. But free all of those young athletes who are currently
only pretending to be college students while they dream of and prepare for their
shot at the big leagues. Give them a farm team system to make a living in as
an alternative to a full-ride scholarship. And make the colleges actually
compete for collegiate-level athletes.
Y Grad / Y DadFact: Utah will not play in the Miami Beach Bowl,
ever. Fact: BYU will not lose to Utah this year.8-)
@ MyperspectiveI'm thinking of changing my name to
SpokaneUteHuskyBruinTrojanDuck. What do you think? I couldn't lose!
CougarSunDevilPhoenix, AZ"I've lived in Arizona (or
had Arizona as my home of record) my whole life and cheered ASU and BYU
simultaneously. It wasn't until Utah fans started demeaning and belittling
their older brother (BYU) when they went to the PAC to point out Utah's
place."This is what I got out of your post...byu is,
as always, the victim here. Got it ;) Total class.
ekuteLayton, UTCopacetic,Fact: Utah is not worried
about getting left out. Except bowl games.Fact: There are no self imposed
sanctions pending up on The Hill. Yet...
upac"What more needs to be discussed about BYU's knee-jerk
indy experiment?"It wasn't a knee-jerk reaction and as far
as the playoffs and restructuring of major college football are concerned, BYU
wouldn't be in any better shape if they'd stayed in the MWC.
U-PACRowlett, TX"What more needs to be discussed about
BYU's knee-jerk indy experiment? Nothing, as a matter of fact."He says.Again.As a matter of fact.
My Perspective "Do you know what the definition of
"classy" is, CougarSunDevil? Hiding behind a Pac-12 team to accomplish
what byu can't." I've lived in Arizona (or had Arizona
as my home of record) my whole life and cheered ASU and BYU simultaneously. It
wasn't until Utah fans started demeaning and belittling their older brother
(BYU) when they went to the PAC to point out Utah's place. IF I were hiding
behind ASU, I would just have Sun Devil in my name and would have picked a more
successful PAC team to beat my chest about. You're attempt at straw man and
the guilt you must feel for the hypocrisy of Utah fans as I pointed out must be
your straw man reasoning.
If the Big-12 is forced to expand, one idea that seems to be getting some
positive attention is inviting Cincinnati and Colorado State.Cincinnati would become the "traveling partner" for West Virginia,
would expand the B12 footprint into Ohio, and Colorado State would get the B12
back into the state of Colorado, in a TV market that is roughly twice the size
of SLC/Provo. Both schools would join for all sports, and Sunday play would not
be an issue.Like everything else in conference realignment,
I'll believe it when I see it, but it appears to be a nice, "clean"
expansion option that would not stretch that conference out too much
geographically (which is a concern with inviting BYU, as Provo is further from
Oklahoma that West Virginia is).
ekute"Fact: There are no self imposed sanctions pending up on
The Hill."You better have your bookstore remove the sign
outlining which player is associated with each number jersey for sale. Oops, too
late. Oh I guess that won't be self imposed, NCAA imposed, but not self
U-PAC,UNLV does not currently have a medical school, let alone a
well-established one. I'm sure that the rest of your facts and opinions
are every bit as valid and fact-based as your assessment of UNLV's medical
school. For future reference, UNLV does have plans for a medical school.
Hmm-mm, did a Cougar just school a Ute?To the monitor: if leaving
off the last sentence is the difference between getting this comment included or
not, go ahead and edit it out.
CopaceticIf three years is "so long ago"; how long ago was
the last time BYU actually beat Utah? I believe the drop kick was all the rave
and the players wore leather helmets. See, I can exagerate too. It must hurt to
be reduced to rooting for other teams (in the PAC 12) to do what your team
can't; beat Utah. It must also be painful to know that even when your rival
has it's worst years; and the program is down, you still can't beat
them. Your team was also ranked below Utah last year and got thumped in hoops.
Oh well, look on the bright side; a bid in the Beach Bowl vs the American
Conference awaits. Whether you win 6, or 11 games that's the destination.
That Rocks. See, no clues required here.
SL Tribune: "BYU football already is better than a number of programs with
favored (Big 5 conference) status, and has been for years. Were the Cougars to
play in one of those conferences, their record would suffer. But to say they do
not belong, on competitive grounds, is bogus, relative to many schools that
already are in."Just like the U. Their record has suffered, but
the U literally belongs in the Pac-12. The Y could compete in any Big 5
conference as well as the U has and will compete. Just as the U's ability
to compete will improve in the Pac-12, so would the Y's ability to compete
if it were in a Big 5 conference.
@ Spokane Ute:I stand corrected. Utah did play a bowl game after
their first year in the conference. It seems so long ago, it sometimes gets hard
to remember that one. Kudos to you for having such a great longterm memory. It
will be awhile until that next bowl memory is made.Sadly, Utah still
finished that first season with a losing conference record and every year since.
In fact, they continue going downhill in that regard. Hence the reason for a new
Offensive Coordinator after each season. Utah does have a few BYU
and Stanford games each season to console their overall record. Big deal. They
still end up competing in the lower tier of their conference standings each and
every year. Nothing to brag about there.And regarding that upset win
over Stanford you mentioned... it was just that, a simple upset. It didn't
change anything. Stanford stayed ranked in the top 10 nationally and Utah still
stayed home for the holidays while continuing their losing ways right
afterwards. So all things considered you still need to look in the
mirror when trying to decide who needs get a meaningful clue.
ConcinittyUtah played in the Sun Bowl, on New Years Eve, three
seasons ago. I hope that helps. I know you would like to pretend it's been
30 years, but it hasn't. It must be easier to spew out exagerated or false
information, then actually do a little research. It certainly doesn't do
much for ones credability though.
@CopeceticTell Stanford that Utah was a "non factor" last
year. Now who needs to get a clue?
@10CC "If I recall correctly, TV ratings, including recent bowl games, have
indicated Utah has made up a lot of ground, in general."I
don't think that's true. From a SportsMediaWatch report, last year,
even excluding the bowl game, BYU had 10,160,000 viewers, more than 3x the
viewership of the Utes (3.3 million viewers). BYU appeared on the major sports
networks (ESPN networks, plus FS1, CBS, NBC, and ABC) 9 times, while Utah only
appeared 5 times (indicative). BYU averaged a little more than 1.1
million viewers per game; Utah averaged 660K per game, a little more than half
of BYU's average. Also, the BYU/Utah game was Utah's highest rated
game of the season, while it was only the 5th highest for BYU.So I
don't know if Utah has made up ground or not in that respect. BYU still
dominates the TV ratings market, and it's telling that BYU is deemed worthy
of being placed on the major networks almost twice as much as Utah, even though
the Utes are a "P5" school.Hence, the insecurity by Utah
fans. That's my theory, at least :)Go Cougars!
Utah 9-18 and on a steady downward trend since joining the PAC - 4-5, 3-6,
2-7.The PAC is obviously getting exactly what they bargained when
they invited the Utes - another perennial conference bottom dweller to keep
Washington State and Colorado company while the big boys of the conference pad
their conference win totals.Gotta luv how frantic and emotional the
kids on the hill get every time anyone even hints of BYU joining a big boy
conference, because the Utes know that their PAC 12 sticker campaign is the only
thing they've got going for them,that, and their annual pillow
fight in the rockies to end another losing, bowl-less season.
uh…I'm a Ute and, uh…we beat Stanford and BYU in
football…and our strength of schedule makes all the other losses almost
the same as wins last year. Ummm, USC and UCLA are good and uh, that's
almost like we are too. oh, and we got to post season NIT in basketball and
were routed by St. Marry's of the WCC in the opening round. So,
we're really good there too. We have a tiny stadium and no one much
watches our games in either sport, but that makes it easier to get tickets. Go
@ Brave Sir Robin:Considering how long it's been since Utah has
played anytime even close to the "Christmas" (bowl) season, it's
been quite awhile they've been able to consider it "wonderful". Contrary to that, Christmas time (bowl season) has been and continues to be
quite wonderful for BYU fans.As such, it's obviously the Ute
fans who are falling back on the "if's and but's"... and for
good reason.Even with 100 monkeys in a room full of typewriters...
sadly, Utah still won't be any closer to a winning season or qualifying for
a bowl game. Sorry, but the truth is what it is and needs to be
What a joke. The prestigious Pac 12 would never consider an alignment with the
likes of Gonzaga, Boise State or BYU. What would be the point?Re:
Poyman "It's just a matter of time before the Boise States, the BYUs,
and others ask a judge to level the playing field so to speak... And I believe
this challenge will be successful."You mean "tilt" the
playing field for teams that couldn't "level" it through their play
on the field like Utah and TCU. Won't happen and shouldn't happen.
Copacetic:"I definitely and truly wouldn't trade places
with Utah if given the chance."I think this would put you in the
small minority of BYU fans, who have had aspirations of joining the PAC for
decades, probably since before you were born.Now, if you want to
stay in a lower tier and rack up the wins, by all means, that's your
prerogative. Eventually, BYU may be like the Triple-A baseball team that has
the best attendance and great community support, but still isn't in the
major leagues.Utah fans and TCU fans have learned the hard way that
our previous arguments about strength of schedule really weren't accurate.
Utah and TCU both have .333 records in their respective conferences since moving
up, while both have faired quite well vs BYU in the past 6-8 years. The separation is occurring.
Copacetic,Fact: Utah is not worried about getting left out.Fact:
There are no self imposed sanctions pending up on The Hill.
@ 10CC:The basement teams of any of the P5 conferences have no
legitimate claim to superiority. Wow. Talking about grabbing onto coattails! It
sounds so funny when you say "we". What exactly is it that you have
personally done to merit that association?Considering the direction
Utah football has been going since joining the PAC12 (no winning seasons or no
bowl games), there is already amble reason for concern without waiting for the
season to get much closer... contrary to your statement. Utah was a
non-factor once again last season and this next season's schedule is
supposed to be even tougher. All things considered, your concern for
Utah football should already be in high gear. What's happening in
Cougarville should be one the last concerns of any intelligent Ute fan.And yet Ute fans continue to dominate the comment boards on almost all BYU
sports articles. As someone pointed out, the first 5 on this one were all from
Ute fans. Their and your concern is truly misplaced. It's
understandable why BYU fans are rolling their eyes at you guys. You and other
ultra-Utes should really try harder to get a clue.
truecoug1:If I recall correctly, TV ratings, including recent bowl
games, have indicated Utah has made up a lot of ground, in general. (Obviously
bowl game comparisons the last two years are not applicable. Utah needs to step
up, without question.)(The following is not scientific, but is an
application of "Big Data", the emerging practice of deriving information
from large, diverse data sets.)There is a person who has compiled
Facebook "likes" and plotted them by zip code, in the State of Utah,
comparing BYU and Utah. Utah County is solidly blue, understandably, with large
sections of SL County being red, and a fair amount of "purple" (ie, not
Weber) scattered throughout other population areas along the Wasatch Front.Sports apparel sales suggest Utah is ahead of BYU, but I don't
think that is solidly representative of reality.It's a split
state, right now, without question. Utah fans appear to have
weathered the reality of joining the PAC, where double-digit win seasons will be
pretty rare. TCU is going through the same transition, as they've gone
6-12 in two seasons in the B12.Definitely a big step up.
CopaceticYou may actually want to get your facts straight before
posting. Utah won the Sun Bowl in the first season in the PAC 12. I also love
how 3 seasons in a very tough conference, has sealed Utah's future. No
worries about changing places either; no Utah fan wants to be the Nomad of
college football, locked into a lowly bowl in June vs the American conference,
and on the outside looking in as the power conferences seperate from the rest of
the schools. I also find it ammusing and ironic when BYU fans rank on Utah in
the PAC 12. How would BYU fare? Considering they have lost every game they have
played against Utah, since they joined the PAC 12; it's safe to say 13th
place would be about right.
I love these wild hypothetical articles written by "guest writers"
designed to appease the BYU masses. If ifs and buts were candy and nuts,
we'd all have a wonderful Christmas.What if all 5 power
conferences have 14 teams? Which one would BYU be in?What if we put
100 monkeys in a room full of typewriters? Which one would eventually reproduce
a work of Shakespeare?
Utah reminds me of the kids in little league smiling for a picture holding their
"membership" trophy. What's next...the PAC12 will decide that Utah
needs 5 downs to compete against Oregon and USC instead of 4? Or maybe
they'll have a consolation division where the 9th place team can beat the
10-12 place teams so they can have a trophy too. That membership trophy does
look nice though next to...uh...lets see...what other trophies? Ahhh yes, I
forgot about the SOS trophy for 3rd place last year...silly me. They do look
@ ekute:Considering how Ute football has done in their conference
since joining, there is actually a lot of reason for "turmoil and
speculation on the hill".Fact: Utah has yet to have a winning
season since joining the PAC12.Fact: Utah has yet to go to a bowl game
since joining the PAC12.Fact: Utah has beaten a grand total of 1
conference foe with a winning record. Period!Fact: Utah has changed
Offensive Coordinators after each season since joining the PAC12.It
seems there is plenty for Ute fans to be concerned about without feigning
negative concern for BYU football. That's why Ute fans' comments on
all-BYU articles are usually so humorous, especially when taken within
context.I definitely and truly wouldn't trade places with Utah
if given the chance. How could anyone ever envy a perennial cellar dweller of
any conference? They can't! I don't. And with an even tougher schedule
next season, Utah has no hope for moving up. It simply isn't going to
happen. So with so little hope on the horizen for your own team,
your continued attention to all things BYU is somewhat understandable. Keep em
" If the Pac-12 wanted to do something unique, the conference could invite
BYU for football only and pair it with an invitation to Gonzaga for all other
sports. Then the Pac-12 could add another university like Boise State to make 14
members."BYU, Boise State, and probably also Gonzaga (but this
one I'm technically not sure on) do not meet PAC-12 academic requirements
(Tier 1 research institutions).
@10CC "This is an historic reality, but more recent data suggests Utah &
BYU are pretty close in market share, in the state of Utah."Great comment, I agree with everything that you said. What data are you
referring to in the above quotation? I'm not trying to stir the pot, I
just don't know of any recent survey of local football fans, so I'd be
curious to see it.I definitely agree that Utah has gained ground on
BYU since joining the PAC. I don't think it has been enough to overtake
the Cougars in the local market share, and I do think that this causes
insecurity among Utah fans. They feel that PAC membership should have been
enough for the Utes to dominate the market, and that's just not the
case.But that may change, depending on how everything plays out. It
will be interesting to see what happens over the next few years.Go
truecoug1:"Utah is the only P5 school... that plays second
fiddle to a 'mid-major' in their own market"This is an
historic reality, but more recent data suggests Utah & BYU are pretty close
in market share, in the state of Utah. Without question BYU has been the more
dominant program, historically, but with the PAC inviting Utah, and BYU
struggling (somewhat) with independence, the scales are starting to tilt to the
red. If Utah sees more success in the PAC, the scales will quickly tilt.In 10 years either two things will have happened:1. The
P5/Division IV schools will have completed their breakaway, and BYU will be the
biggest, most powerful G5 in the nation, but still on the outside looking in.2. BYU will have figured out some way to get on the train, via
litigation or an unforeseen change in conference circumstances.
Add me to the list of those amused by the red obsession of all things BYU.
Sometimes I'm disappointed during the spring/summer months when there is
only 1 or 2 articles on BYU, but my disappointment must pale in comparison to
CB, Navel lint, EK, Perspect and so so many others like them. Don't worry
boys, media days and fall camp are just around the corner. This should give you
some extra time to polish those PAC12 stickers.
Poyman:You are correct in terms of divisions. I've also been saying
that CFB can't establish criteria for being in a division (criteria are
established now for FBS vs FCS programs) and arbitrarily exclude a program that
meets or exceeds all those criteria. Here's the rub though. The
hypothetical Div 4 could establish "research" criteria along with
enrollments, etc, similar to what conferences like the PAC12 and B1G already
have (AAU or tier 1 status). This would legally exclude BYU. Of course
that's just an example, because programs like Ok St, WVU, TCU, etc would
all have to vastly increase their research goals and endowments. What I'm
simply saying is that they can legally exclude BYU and Boise St with a little
legal maneuvering...I don't like it but it's true. This is also hard
because I'm a UGA fan and they are HUGE snobs against midmajors so I tend
to see both sides of it.
Cougsndawgs,"What if the day actually comes when BYU is rendered to a
lower division or worse, folds up their program altogether? What will you have
to talk about then, ute fans?"We would talk about getting an
even bigger advantage in recruiting instate and LDS talent.
@ cougar76"Everyone else, including BYU can then get back to
playing college football instead of chasing $$$$. As always, troll responses are
not wanted and will not be read."Chasing the $$$$, isn't
that one of the reasons why BYU went independent?BYU is just as
driven by greed as the major college football conferences. The only difference
is BYU is a mid-major school who is on the outside looking in.
Copacetic:It's fascinating that you're assigning all kinds
of reasons why Utah fans take an interest in things going on with BYU, when the
predominant factors are actually pretty simple:- Utah has no drama
going on. We know who we are and how we need to improve within our conference.
It's June, there's simply not a lot happening, except the slow
machinations toward the P5 splitting off. We're on the train, very little
drama or concern for us. We're "in".- BYU and its fans
continually provide great entertainment for anyone who is interested, from
"Quest for Perfection" to Bronco (essentially) announcing that
Independence is really not that great, with some improper benefits
investigations and other spectacles mixed in. You guys do provide great
entertainment, but it may not be the kind you're trying to exhibit.Comparing the thinking of BYU fans with the statements made by insiders
in the Big-12 about BYU's prospects for getting into the Big-12 are an
irresistible sociological study, in the summer.As the season gets
closer Utah fans will certainly have plenty to focus on in our new reality. We completely understand why the P5 is superior.
Cougar76:Seriously? Altitude? Now that's a new reason for the PAC not
taking BYU...I'd never thought of that one!
continuedThis makes Utah fans really insecure. They try to make up
for it by throwing out PAC 12 gear and PAC 12 references everywhere, desperately
associating themselves with their "big-boy" conference to
"prove" that they're somehow "relevant", since they know
that the U can't get by based on the school's merits alone.They then come on to articles like this one and try to hammer BYU fans for not
being in the "P5" and stating that BYU's program is a
"mid-major", BYU athletics are doomed, and desperately trying to build
up Utah as a school that people actually care about, when nobody outside of the
huge, 50,000 strong Utah fanbase gives a hoot.I have no clue what
the future holds for BYU. Nobody does. I'm confident that the
administration will get it done. However, I DO know that BYU carries the local
market, and that bugs the heck out of Utah "fans". And I find that
extremely entertaining! Go Cougars!
Lol, I agree with the other BYU fans, the comments from the Utah "fans"
on here are hilarious! Whether it's MyPerspective and U-PAC stating that
this is the end of BYU athletics as we know it, or U-PAC saying he's a
"Utah man" when all he talks about is having PAC gear (which DOES sum up
a Utah "man", or I guess I should say "fan", perfectly),
it's pure comedic gold!I think I've identified the source
of the angst/BYU obsession among Utah fan: Utah is the only P5 school that I can
think of that plays second fiddle to a "mid-major" in their own market.
In TV ratings and fans base, as well as radio, BYU drives the market. A pair of
socks at BYU can dominate the news in Utah for a week, while a swimming coach at
Utah who is accused of abusing his athletes gets barely a mention from the radio
heads in the state.continued...
@myperspectiveYour comments are full of opinion with little to no
substance or homework to back it up... You should reread my post...There is a world of difference to support separation between FBS and FCS
institutions... Enrollment numbers, investment in facilities, equipment, travel,
etc... History of performance on the field... etc...These differences
don't exist however, between the Boise States and the BYUs ... In fact,
reasonable people could argue that some of the Universities that are left out
have richer program history, more investment, and similar or even larger
enrollments... Some institutions (i.e. BYU) could could also argue a Title VII
violation (exclusion based on religion) which requires "Reasonable
Accommodation"There is actually already some case history on
this OU and UGA vs ABC Sports and the NCAA... A ruling that supports my
contention.In short the law does not allow for arbitrary division
when considering the loss of potentially large sums of money (millions and
millions of dollars)...Sorry... but I think that I am pretty
accurate on this one.
What makes me laugh is that Utah fans are enjoying BYUs discomfort and enjoying
BYU being left out. They hope for a day when they are the lone wolf and can
claim superiority in the state of Utah. What if the day actually comes when BYU
is rendered to a lower division or worse, folds up their program altogether?
What will you have to talk about then, ute fans? It certainly won't be any
great accomplishments of Utah because U are lower rung. Boy these boards sure
will be dead! Lol
cougar76Raleigh, NC"Everyone else, including BYU can then
get back to playing college football instead of chasing $$$$. As always, troll
responses are not wanted and will not be read.."So, you advocate
that byu refuse the checks it receives from ESPN? Thought so.
I have to concur with a few other BYU commenters who have noted the continued
and exceptional attention Ute fans give to all things BYU, especially regarding
football. Their negativity doesn't mask their envy that BYU
continues going to bowl games year after year while Utah sits home each post
season, year after year.Regardless of the attempted put-downs, the
envy persists that BYU spends so much more time each season being nationally
ranked higher than any other intermountain program.The negative
remarks are in frustration to BYU being on national TV multiple times more often
than Utah, whose relatively insignificant conference channel isn't even yet
available on the nation's biggest satellite provider. Ouch!When
the envy factor is taken into context, the near meaningless Ute fan jabs are
mostly just comments that makes most BYU fans smile, knowing that BYU's
future on the national sports scene will continue evolving to where it needs to
be. There is no valid reason for the concerns Ute fans apparently have. Things
will fall into place where and when they should.Until then, allow
the Ute fans to keep us smiling with their continued pious comments.
If you pay attention to the comments of coaches and conferences, the biggest
complaint is getting all the conferences to play the same number of conference
games. 3 play 9 games, 2 play 8 conference games. That is an issue they can
work out without a big shuffling of conference membership.The days
of conference realignment are over.
UPAC, thanks for the laugh. First you list the PAC12’s potential
expansion partners (in order of preference) as UNLV, New Mexico, SDSU, and
Hawaii. While those four teams are consistent in overall athletic strength with
the last two teams the PAC invited to their conference, there is no way they
make that mistake again. Second, you list how proud you are to be a PAC 12
grad, t-shirt wearer, blanket snuggler, and bumper sticker driver and then
casually mention you’re a Ute fan. I don’t know if you’re
taking an anti-Utah trolling stance but the PAC pride is hilarious. Just
curious, are you an actual PAC12 grad, or a Utah grad (remember they’ve
only been in the PAC for a couple of years)?
@ U-PACThat Savannah State game is the one I am looking forward to
the most. This is the last chance that BYU fans will ever see a SWAC team come
and play in the state. I hope they bring the band. If they do I will
definitely be shelling out for tickets and taking my two nephews to the game.
This is one of those special event type of opponents that it is an honor to
play. Its not about the score, its not really about the teams on the field, it
is about what they represent. You probably don't even know about the SWAC
and its place in college football's history.There are few
special games out there. BYU has played in Hawaii, against Air Force and Navy.
They have also played kickoff bowls and in NFL stadiums early in the year. They
have taken on Notre Dame (and will do so four more times, twice in Provo). The
only special experiences that BYU has lacked is a game versus Army and a game
with the SWAC.
Brio,"Why the continued obsession with all things BYU?"Because the only hint of "turmoil and speculation" up on The Hill
right now is the Travis Wilson question. The medical decision on Travis will
come a month earlier than expected. So all is well in Ute camp. Although
I'm looking forward to a great summer I'm also excited about the
upcoming football season. Don't worry, as we edge closer to training camp
there will be more articles about the Utes and you and your friends will have
plenty of opportunity to post your opinion. Go Utes!
The pac would never want to have BYU, Colorado, and u in the same south
division. The good teams all know there is too much of a home advantage for
Colorado and u playing at altitude. That is why most of their wins are at home
and most of their loses are on the road. I am still in favor of the 5 (4)
conferences forming their own division IV and the good teams beating up on the
weak teams in their conferences. That would be followed by the same 5-6 good
teams playing in the NC and big money bowls every year. Everyone else,
including BYU can then get back to playing college football instead of chasing
$$$$. As always, troll responses are not wanted and will not be read..
I, like Brio and other BYU fans, find it highly entertaining to read about the
concern and attention Ute fans have regarding anything BYU connected. As Chris
likes to say... too funny!It's becoming more obvious, article
after article, that because Utah simply can not become relevant in it's own
conference, it's fans are now relegating their time to trying to diminish
the relevancy of opponents they are most concerned with. That's always been
BYU. Always has been and apparently always will be. The complete proof is in
these posts.How else can you explain the majority of comments on
this and most other BYU sports articles being made by Ute fans? Whether the
comments are positive or negative in nature, the attention to BYU is truly
there. It apparently deeply bothers Ute fans that BYU continues
getting more national attention than Utah with a much bigger TV audience. And so
we've come to expect snide little remarks in these comment sections
whenever and wherever possible. That's all that's left while waiting
for 2016.So until then, thank you, Ute fans, for your attention and
concern regarding BYU sports. It's entertaining and complimentary.
CougarSunDevilPhoenix, AZ"What's funny is how Utah
was crying about this same issue not 3 years ago. "We belong in a power
conference" Not one Utah fan has ever cried about not belonging
in a power conference. Not one. The complaints in 2008 were related to the BCS
system keeping the Utes from being the national champion that year. The whining
about not being in a power conference is from byu fans. End of story. "Now, not only is Utah and it's fans defending the Power 5
model, but they are arrogantly rubbing mid-major school's nose in it.
Really "classy" Ute fans. Can't wait to dismantle your
"team" on November 1st, you know, like we've done since
1977."If you don't want your proverbial noses rubbed in it,
stop whining and get to work to earn your way.Do you know what the
definition of "classy" is, CougarSunDevil? Hiding behind a Pac-12 team
to accomplish what byu can't.
I can see the next wave of expansion going up to 16 teams with the BIG 12
getting torn apart. That won't likely happen till TV contracts are close
to renewal. However the PACs cash flow has got to be getting under the skin of
the executives of the SEC. That may happen sooner because of it.The
SEC will be the first to grab two teams--Texas and Oklahoma. That will be more
than enough to get better contracts than the PAC. From that point on it should
be a free for all.The irony is that BYU as an indy still is in a
sweet spot UNTIL either the leagues refuse to play or they if they join a league
they can't compete in like Utah has. While I believe they can compete in
the Big12, I would rather they control their own destiny by staying independent.
I have loved seeing new teams come to Provo these past three years. It got
MUCH better last year. Looking at further schedules I am so pumped, especially
And so we have it once again. The first 5 comments by Ute fans and the majority
of comments so far by Ute fans. Why the continued obsession with all things
BYU?Why are so many Ute fans apparently more concerned with BYU than
their own alma mater? This ultra-concern and attention by mostly Ute fans
(BYU's traditional rival) is the ultimate compliment to BYU sports. These Ute fans can obviously hardly wait to read and comment on any BYU
sports article... particularly football and basketball... with apparently more
concern than even BYU fans, who have learned to take such things more in stride.
Chris B: That is truly what is so funny... and so sad. You truly
simply can't leave it alone, and neither can the other group BYU
wanna-be's and wish-they-could be's. It's the only plausible
explanation for such paranoia. Just trying to convince yourself.Whatever ends up happening will play out well for BYU. It always does in the
long run. Their administration knows what's going on. Even now, they
currently get multiple times more national media attention than Utah and all
other inter-mountain college teams.
U fans are such bandwagoners. You probably are "fans" of the Miami Heat,
Seattle Seahawks, and Yankees/Red Sox too. You love the "big boys" now
that they have invited you so they can beat up on you over and over whereas a
few years ago you cried about the inequity and bemoaned the BCS system that let
you down in 2004.
poymanLincoln City, OR"Whether the Power 5 Conferences
like it or not, at some point this issue will either be legislated or decided by
the courts..."Right, poyman. Just like the separation between
Divisions I and II was legislated and stopped. Where's the outcry of
injustice from byu fans about that? The P5 are on a path to become a new
Division...nothing more, nothing less. With respect to the
mid-majors...if they want a playoff, they can have one. If the mid-majors want
a National Championship, they can have one. Mendenhall and his gaggle of byu
fans can still call it a national championship and everyone is happy. No one is
stopping the mid-majors from doing / having anything any more than Div I is
stopping Div II.
What's funny is how Utah was crying about this same issue not 3 years ago.
"We belong in a power conference" "we're going to sue the
NCAA" "This is anti-competition". Now, not only is Utah and
it's fans defending the Power 5 model, but they are arrogantly rubbing
mid-major school's nose in it. Really "classy" Ute fans. Can't
wait to dismantle your "team" on November 1st, you know, like we've
done since 1977.
The TV contract for the Big-12 expires in about 9 years. In the meantime -
especially if the B12 gets approval to have a conference championship game with
10 members - they have no incentive to expand for quite awhile.In
2011 Utah nearly had a Sunday game scheduled with USC - because it appeared the
NFL was going to strike - which is part of the reason the P5 TV contracts
include possible Sunday play. What if the B12 conference
championship game is played on a Sunday? It would be a great opportunity for
the nation to learn how LDS keeps the Sabbath holy... and it would also be a big
reason why the B12 would avoid that contingency to begin with.New
Big-12 member West Virginia is already complaining about the travel, and
it's closer from Oklahoma City to Morgantown than it is from OKC to Provo.
Look for the Big-12 to expand east, if they expand at all. Unless
Texas and OU bolt, there's no reason for the PAC-12 to expand. Expanding
to 14 or 16 just to match other P5s makes no sense for the PAC. Lower
population out west.
What if every conference had 12, 14, 16 teams? Let's dream some more.
Sorry BYU fans it looks like a return to Pre-Lavell Edwards era. PAC12 had no
interest and as it was stated recently neither does the BIG12. I am sure that
Mr. Driggs remembers those years an no doubt would not want to return to them.
I am truly sorry for the changes that have occurred with college athletics and
are leaving BYU behind. I am glad that I am not a cougar fan right now, the
future doesn't look too bright.
BYU will be invited to the major college football national championship
playoffs,loooooong before the Utes play in their first Rose Bowl.Mark it Down!
CBChances of the U ever being invited to the playoffs...ZERO!It's going to take at least an 11+ win season for the
Utes to be in the playoff picture, something Utah has only done twice in their
entire history and something they haven't even come close to since joining
"In any case, pondering these ideas could inject a little life into the
off-season lull for BYU fans."Nothing works like reverse
psychology with this pool of participants.Own it!
Fun to speculate, and this configuration actually makes sense, given that the
Sunday rule would be a non-factor. But who are we kidding? There's a
growing anti-BYU vibe in the country that's getting harder and harder to
ignore. Even when it makes sense, no power conference will want BYU with their
demands. I'm afraid that independence is becoming less and less of a choice
Whether the Power 5 Conferences like it or not, at some point this issue will
either be legislated or decided by the courts... As I have said
before, we are talking about large sums of money, money earned by state
sponsored institutions... and under the current mode of operation there
doesn't seem to be any consistent rhyme nor reason as to why one school
gets to play for the money while another school does not.... The schools are not
chosen by any objective method... enrollment varies widely, facility investment
varies widely, and past performance has some more successful schools left out
and some poor performing schools included... It is not lawful for a
group of state sponsored institutions to declare which state institutions get a
shot at playing for big money and which don't... Inclusion and Exclusion is
arbitrary and the difference between earning potential for those included vs
those excluded is large and it has Anti-Trust written all over it... It's just a matter of time before the Boise States, the BYUs, and others
ask a judge to level the playing field so to speak... And I believe this
challenge will be successful.
The only "turbulence and speculation" is in happy valley.
Someones been sniffing green jello to write this article up. Gonzaga was a
member of the PAC 12, before it was the PAC, and even had a football team. BYU
has a slim chance to be a football only member. Like Boise St., Gonzaga has
nothing to offer, especially with the TV footprint.
"Since three of the five conferences already have 14 teams, you could make
an assumption that for national championship playoff fairness, there would need
to be a common number of teams in each conference and each conference would have
a football playoff game."What? National championship playoff
"fairness" requires the same number of teams? Says who...byu fans? Clearly, all of the P5 conferences are moving to a 9 game format with P5
teams which has absolutely nothing to do with the number of teams in the
conference. Under this scenario, byu is relegated to exactly what byu is...a
mid-major proving that independence was a bad idea.How about this
scenario...the Big 12 teams are picked off and divided among the SEC, ACC,
Big10, and Pac-12. The four remaining P5 conferences each have 16 teams (ND is
part of the ACC). Each conference has a representative team in the four team
playoff. How coll is that? Of course, under this scenario, byu is relegated to
exactly what byu is...a mid-major proving that independence was a bad idea.
If 'Ifs' and 'Buts' were candy and nuts, the cougars would
be in a P-5 conference.