Comments about ‘UHSAA may factor wins and losses into next round of high school realignment’

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Published: Thursday, June 5 2014 7:08 a.m. MDT

Updated: Thursday, June 5 2014 7:08 a.m. MDT

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eagle
Provo, UT

I think this is a positive step in the right direction and something actually done in many states when they classify. I think the best thing is to take teams that are struggling that are toward the bottom of their current classification and then classify them down into the lower classification. As examples, move Ogden to 3A. Move Granger back to 4A. Move Hillcrest back to 4A.

Veracity
Morgan, UT

There is so much turf protecting by members of the UHSAA deciding board that a fare realignment will never occur. Strong leadership by the executive committee has never been a controlling influence over these self-serving members, but if wish them all in this endeavor...it would truly be nice to see a fair realignment, especially in travel.

914NYC
St George, UT

High school sports is cyclical and the St George schools will always be the issue. They are isolated from practically the whole state, many don't want to travel so the UHSAA will basically make that region decision based off of money not wins and losses.

OutSide-LookingIn
Provo, UT

Looking at the smaller schools:
Under this new system will:
Ben Lomond,Canyon View & Carbon now go to 2A
ALA, North Sevier and Layton Christian to 1A

Duchesne move to 2A
Manti, South Summit and San Juan to 3A

Just a quick at things... Maybe wrong, but under premise of wins and losses I may be spot-on.

eagle
Provo, UT

Again, my overall plan is look at the population of the schools and also their overall competitive level in all the sports over a given length of time.

With Granger, Hillcrest and Ogden for example, all the school are toward the lower end of their classifications in student populations. Granger and Ogden, for instance, have bounced back and forth between 4A/5A and 3A/4A respectively and now currently find themselves in a higher classification. Both of the these schools struggle to compete generally. But to me all three of those schools mentioned should be classified in a lower classification.

As for football, I would create an even more elite class and any school that has athletes attending their school from outside their boundaries from three or more boundary areas would have to compete in this highest division (e.g. Timpview, East). Private schools would have to times their enrollment by a factor of 1.5 (which is done in other states) because they have the ability to recruit athletes from multiple boundaries.

By doing this, there is recognition of enrollment factors, attracting students from other boundaries as well as general competitive level of the school.

Simpe Spectator
St.George, UT

So in a world where we are trying to separate the gap between rich and poor, we make a gap in sports? I think that the problem is that we are trying to make everyone happy and feel like a winner. While this is good, life isn't fair. If I don't work or show results in my job, I get fired. What type of life lessons are we teaching these kids? If you just play bad enough, you will get rewarded to play in the worst region possible, then you work really hard and you can take state. That's not real life. Much like last year, moving Canyon View football to 2A. They are as big as most of the other 3A schools, they just have a bad football program so we are trying to cater to them. That's not reality. There is only like 14 teams in all of 3AA football. The chances of winning are so much higher because we are trying to give a crutch to students who don't win.

S.Hamala
SANDY, UT

How about we just take down all the scoreboards across the state and not keep score to even the playing field. Horrible idea, not everyone is suppose to win a State Championship, this is competition. I am sure if you are tired of losing the UHSAA will approve your transfer to one of the schools that are winning. Stop trying to fix it, it gets worse every 2 years.

Duckhunter
Highland , UT

I have twice been denied my post and the reason given by the moderatort is

"* Comment included ALL-CAPS shouting, overuse of punctuation, extreme length or violated other formatting rules."

It contains none of those things, not one, they just don't like the content which is about schools recruiting. Pathetic.

I like eagle's post on this by the way. Good idea's, similar to mine which the dnews won't allow to me post.

Ball junky
Bountiful, UT

Utah educators could really help the situation by actually hiring coaches that would teach the fundamentals of the sport. Thus a individual would not have to spend a lot of money learning how to play, (it cost around $100 per hour for 1 on 1 lessons). Granted we need to get the NBA and Colleges to help with the cost and evaluation of getting good coaches. Most of the principals want is a teacher that can stay after school and organize a group of kids and not go to jail. I believe being involved in a sport is no different then a math class, there is so much to learn. If a math teacher only gives out tests everyday, how will the student learn? And that is what a lot of coaches are doing, just scrimmages without teaching the basics to progress. But it is sad to see young men put 100 of hours practicing and then get to the school and digress because the coaches are just rolling the ball out. So instead of blaming every one else, lets actually help and educate coaches so the poor kids do not have to find extra money for a 1 on 1 lesson or get left out.

Ball junky
Bountiful, UT

Utah educators could really help the situation by actually hiring coaches that would teach the fundamentals of the sport. Thus a individual would not have to spend a lot of money learning how to play,(it cost around $100 per hour for a 1 on 1 lesson). Granted we need to get the NBA and Colleges to help with the cost and evaluation of getting good coaches. Most of the principals want is a teacher that can stay after school and organize a group of kids and not go to jail. I believe being involved in a sport is no different then a math class, there is so much to learn. If a math teacher only gives out tests everyday, how will the student learn? And that is what a lot of coaches are doing, just scrimmages without teaching the basics to progress. But it is sad to see young men put 100 of hours practicing and then get to the school and digress because the coaches are just rolling the ball out. So instead of blaming every one else, lets actually help and educate coaches so the poor kids do not have to find extra money for a lesson or get left out.

eagle
Provo, UT

I don't think what I'm saying is giving everyone a trophy or that complicated. In fact, I don't think it's anti-competition. Some of you might be aware that in European soccer teams often are relegated to lower division for poor performance or often promoted based on good performance. All I would do is take the schools that are the lower end of the enrollment in student population and look at their competitiveness level. If they are competitive, they stay at the same classification, if they are not they move down. If Canyon View is way above the cutoff, they would stay 3A.

And then I think it would be great to create an elite level for football where in reality we recognize that some programs have competitive advantage. Perhaps Timpview would love to compete against Bingham for this championship. This would be easy for the UHSAA to track and those schools with these inherent advantages would simply compete against each other. For private schools, multiply their total enrollment by 1.5 and go from there.

Again, not seeing why this is anti-competitive. I think it would only enhance the quality of competition.

Tenn12
Orem, UT

Terrible idea. So now we are going to punish schools for their success and eliminate competition? And this is fair?
I've been around high school sports for awhile. I do recognize there ARE a few exceptions. But for the most part, the schools that don't compete have only themselves to blame. Poor administrations with no understanding for athletics, uncommitted coaching staffs, unimaginative schemes, poorly run programs. It is no secret why some programs are consistently better than others and than begin attracting kids from neighboring schools. Too many times I've witnessed schools that complain they just can't compete with other schools, only to see that coaches weren't always there for practices, kids were allowed to coast through workouts, administrators were unsupportive, and the overall coaching was so unimaginative and lackluster. On the flip side, the schools that are succeeding consistently have committed coaching staffs, not just one or two coaches. The administration doesn't just hire anybody, but somebody with experience and a proven track record. The programs are well run and the administrators do all they can to support. I see too many excuses in this state from schools that are consistently behind.

eagle
Provo, UT

Tenn12:

I'll actually throw out some real life coaches and real life examples.

Coaches Ray Groth (football), Deanna Meyer (volleyball) and Chad Van Orden (football) all coached at Granger HS. But all three moved on to way different situations to schools where economics weren't a factor. They were good and successful coaches at Granger but when they had resources they won state championships or were on staffs that won state championships. To say that resources don't matter, wealth doesn't matter, is ludicrous. To say Granger has principals or leadership that doesn't care about athletics is also bogus. Their current principal Jerry Haslem was a longtime (and successful) coach himself.

But let's face it, a Lone Peak or Alta or Jordan or Timpview is in a community rich with resources. Their students might have issues but day to day financial (and even physical survival) isn't one of them. Most of the schools on the bottom of the all-sports award in 4A/5A come from less affluent areas. To say that every single one of these schools is littered with coaches and administrators that don't care, or are incompetent, is incorrect.

Tenn12
Orem, UT

Eagle,
Van Orden was never the head coach at Granger so we'll never know what he was capable of as a head coach. As an offensive coordinator, Granger was very good with him there. Don't take away from what he's accomplished as a head coach by saying that it was because of resources. If anything, more resources came because of winning. You want to penalize schools for success. Socioeconomics doesn't solely decide success in athletics. As many examples that you can come up with for schools that have more resources, I can give you examples of schools with resources that still perform poorly. I can see it now, a coach improves a lowly program, and because he does, he is punished and has to play against schools twice its size? And who decides how to separate schools by socioeconomic status? What factors in? Which sports? A school with a great football program but poor basketball and baseball programs? Should we punish the whole school for one sports success? That wouldn't work. Let's face reality, a vocal minority is whining and want changes so they can have a better chance at winning.

Danite
Salt Lake City, UT

High School athletics cannot control or influence the socioeconomic situations that schools find themselves in. What needs to happen is to continue to delineate by numbers of students and nothing more.

Having been part of a Utah state championship football team, I can honestly say that winning isn't what I miss. These young people don't have to win to enjoy the game and learn life lessons. Looking back it's the bus rides, practices, and locker rooms that you miss.

If it was all about winning and losing, then one region champion and one state champion would have "good experiences" and everyone else is wasting their time. Seriously though, we don't have to worry about wins and loses.

eagle
Provo, UT

Tenn12:

I would never take anything away from Van Orden, he's a great coach. But like Meyer and Groth he moved on. Meyer and Groth were head coaches. They had winning seasons and I think both won region titles in their respective sports. But bottom line, all three moved on to better coaching environs where they felt they could fulfill their potential as coaches. And certainly, community support and resources was important.

Also, I would never move Granger down to 2A just because they stunk it up. The only thing I would propose is moving those schools near the bottom of classification enrollment numbers down a classification. I might even suggest the school be in the bottom quartile in enrollment. Then they would look at their overall athletic program, say using the Deseret News All-Sports award, and classify there if they were in the bottom quartile. So again, the school would be in the bottom quartile in both enrollment for that classification AND general athletic success. If not it would stay up based on the enrollment cutoff.

However, I still like my idea for football. Draw for multiple boundaries, move up to highest classification.

The Real Maverick
Orem, UT

I don't think lowering schools into lesser qualifications will help their sports programs.

For example, if Provo were to drop to 3a and Timpview were to stay 4a, I think Provo would become even less attractive. Why? Fewer people watch 3a. 3a gets less attention. Scouts will question the quality of competition when scouting for players. 3a is less prestigious than 4a.

Furthermore, how would schools finance this? For example, if Provo were to drop to 4a, instead of paying for buses to play schools nearby in Utah and Wasatch counties, they'd have to travel all over the state.

So while it may sound nice dropping certain schools into lower qualifications, I'm not sure if it will a crisply improve things.

The bottom line is administrators, teachers, coaches etc need to work together to compete. Parents need to be better at supporting their schools and coaches and not just complain about their child's playing time.

Mr. Morgan
Morgan, UT

This is ridiculous, if you are going to look at the socioeconomic aspects of a school, then look at the socioeconomic aspects of a school. If you are going to look at the wins, then look at the wins. Do not attempt to combine the two! Logan High is over 52% free or reduced lunch students attending the school, however the football team has three games total in the past 3 seasons. So are we looking at socioeconomic, or wins? It has to be fair across the board.
When you talk about football, you look at Granger kids and compare them to South Summit kids, there is a huge size difference. Why are we going to put them together based on wins? Why don't we give everyone a state title, why can't everyone win? The bottom line is that I really wish that all of these people who are complaining to the UHSAA lived by this following quote.... Don't complain, just work harder! Some have it, some don't. That's one of the reasons of open enrollment! This will be a huge mistake if the UHSAA really does it.

footballisgood
Holladay, UT

Ball junky, it sounds like you had a bad experience with one coach and are over generalizing all coaches because of it. The level of coaching in this state is phenomonal. Turn on ESPN and watch the Florida teams play - they are super talented and very very poorly coached. As I have moved around I have witnessed several high school football programs in this state and I have never witnessed one where coaches do not develop skills, or where all they do is roll out the ball and scrimmage. That may be the case where you are but it is certainly not the case at most Utah high schools.

sky2k1
Provo, UT

Can we create something like 1A, 2A, 3A....124A, 125A? I don't want anyone to get left out here.

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