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Comments about ‘Sen. Orrin Hatch says gay marriage inevitable but religious rights being lost’

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Published: Wednesday, May 28 2014 5:50 p.m. MDT

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Rocket Science
Brigham City, UT

If SSM is inevitable these questions are relevant: Will churches maintain tax exempt status if they do not conform? Will LDS Cultural Halls still be allowed to have receptions if they do not include the same availability to SS couples? Will LDS bishops have state recognition of marriages performed if they will only perform traditional marriage ceremonies? Will public schools teach that SSM is the same as traditional marriage, that it is perfectly normal, acceptable and should be embraced by all? Will the LDS church be allowed to have marriages performed in temples recognized by states if they dont also perform SSM?

woodysworld
Sandy, UT

For those who have asked Senator Hatch to respond, do you really believe he reads these posts? He doesn't even personally return phone calls, letters and emails. And when he does it is a form letter from one of his staff. Not likely you will see a response in the DN.

koseighty
The Shire, UT

@Rocket Science
"Will churches maintain tax exempt status if they do not conform?"
Yes. The only reason that churches can lose exempt status is if they participate in politics. But in practice, the IRS ignores political activities by churches.

Will LDS Cultural Halls still be allowed to have receptions if they do not include the same availability to SS couples?
Yes.

Will LDS bishops have state recognition of marriages performed if they will only perform traditional marriage ceremonies?
Yes.

Will public schools teach that SSM is the same as traditional marriage, that it is perfectly normal, acceptable and should be embraced by all?
Yes. But only to the extent that they talk about marriage. (So: health class, civics.)

Will the LDS church be allowed to have marriages performed in temples recognized by states if they dont also perform SSM?
Yes.

Churches' status won't change. Mormon bishops aren't forced to perform ceremonies for Catholics, Protestants, Jews, etc. They set the rules within their own faith. Equality has been law for 10 years in Massachusetts and Canada, how have churches been affected there?

Tiago
Seattle, WA

@Rocket Science
"Will churches maintain tax exempt status if they do not conform?" Yes. No worries.
"Will LDS Cultural Halls still be allowed to have receptions if they do not include the same availability to SS couples?" Yes, as long as they don't charge rental fees to the public.
"Will LDS bishops have state recognition of marriages performed if they will only perform traditional marriage ceremonies?" Yes.
"Will public schools teach that SSM is the same as traditional marriage, that it is perfectly normal, acceptable and should be embraced by all?" Probably not in those words, but yes they will teach that same-sex marriage is a reality. They will also teach about human sexuality based on current scientific understanding. I hope you can see this is a positive thing.
"Will the LDS church be allowed to have marriages performed in temples recognized by states if they dont also perform SSM?" Yes. See the many states and countries where SSM has been legal for years for evidence.

Kally
Salt Lake City, UT

@ Rocket Science: Here is an easy way to answer your 2:09 pm question: Every where you use "SSM" substitute "Interracial".

Last year or the year before that, there was a church that refused to allow an interracial couple to marry in their church building because no interracial couple had ever been married there before and they wanted to keep it that way - even though the both of the individuals in the couple attended church in that building on a regular basis. Guess what? That church had the right to have that rule and the couple had to find a different place to marry.

A church recently refused to perform a marriage for a black couple, even though they attended that church regularly. This was held to be the province of the church and its minister.

The LDS Church does not rent out its churches or any part thereof to non-members - they are not forced to do it now, they will not be forced to do it in the future.

That is the difference between a church and a business.

Testimony
Philadelphia, PA

Rocket Science asks, "Will public schools teach that SSM is the same as traditional marriage, that it is perfectly normal, acceptable and should be embraced by all? "

What if they do? You're still free to teach your children the morality of your own church, and your own beliefs. Schools have taught about racial civil rights for decades now. Still, there's no shortage of racial prejudice, so any purported influence of the public schools must be seriously overrated.

The influence of the family is usually stronger than the influence of either schools or churches. Your children will most likely follow your example. So, fear not. If you want your children to grow up with contempt towards others, there's an excellent chance you'll succeed.

RedWings
CLEARFIELD, UT

Take an honest look at Massachucets now that gay marriage has been the law for 10 years.

- GLSEN conducts training in Junior Highs that includes booklets showing boys how to perform gay acts and a list of bars they can go to for their first "gay experience".

- Churches that hold group meetings on overcoming SSA are viciously protested, including having gay rights advocates trespass and use a bullhorn siren directly outside the window to disrupt the meeting.

- Parents who object to cirriculum that advocates homosexuality are not allowed to remove their students from class. On at least one occasion, the parent was arrested.

All of this is available on the web and youtube if you care to see reality.

The fact is, the gay rights movement and the far left have no tolerance for those who disagree with them. Religious rights have not been taken yet, but stay tuned.

I really hope all the posters here who are so vocal about equality will stand with the religions when those rights are attacked. Equality is for everyone after all....

Baccus0902
Leesburg, VA

I found amusing and clever Senator Hatch's assertion. On one hand he agrees with those asking for change and on the same breath states that religious rights are being threatened. The perfect statement from a seasoned politician, agrees with those looking for equal rights and appeals to the sense of paranoia of his LDS constituency opposed to SSM. A real master!!

Through out all this process I have been deeply impressed and touched by the many people who have questioned their up-bringing and social mores to support equality for all. As an LDS (Yes, I still consider myself one)makes me happy to see that so many of my brothers and sisters are valiant enough to stand for what their intelligence and sense of justice tells them instead of just following blindly.

I am grateful to the DN and the church for providing this forum to exchange ideas and see the magnificent social and spiritual change that is taking place.

May God continue blessing all his children with the ability to learn and the humility to accept
that God does not discriminate against love.

Baccus0902
Leesburg, VA

@ Redwings

"I really hope all the posters here who are so vocal about equality will stand with the religions when those rights are attacked. Equality is for everyone after all...."

As long as you are willing to be HONEST and use the TRUTH as your arguments, I think most of us would help you to protect your rights....About religious rights? Well, if they are "ever really threatened" and are not just a dramatic outburst.

Pujols4mvp
Lehi, UT

For those wondering what "religious rights" are being lost...You think the former CEO of Mozilla lost something for exercising his beliefs? You may not like that he exercised his beliefs, you may even think him a bigot. But he has the right (hey, a right!) to support what he believes in, *just like you do*. Those campaigning for equality demand tolerance, but can't seem to tolerate an antithetical position based on religious convictions. For many, it's an automatic disqualification of that person's views. That close mindedness and subsequent knee-jerk shouts of bigotry point to an erosion of the right (hey, another right!) for those with religious convictions to share their position. Surely there's place for that.

IDSpud
Eagle, ID

@ Laura Bilington. The LDS Church has openly declared support for extending social benefits to same-sex couples, and for laws that don’t discriminate. What the church has stood firm on was the definition of marriage and family. But LGBT wanted their union to be referred to as a marriage. The LDS Church didn’t take their current stand on this issue necessarily to prevent other churches/clergy from performing same-sex unions, but they realized that eventually they would be forced to comply. It’s coming.

Because the very definition of marriage and family is being altered by judicial decree, and those whose religious conviction/tenets prompt them to oppose that redefinition, adoption agencies run my religious groups are already being shut down. LDS Bishops will be required to perform marriages for LGBT, so will likely end up discontinuing the practice. The same will be required in the temples, so marriages will no longer be part of the sealing ceremony. There are already examples of folks being forced out of business (they “deserve it” is not an answer). People have been forced to step down from their jobs for support of Prop-8 in California. The pendulum is swinging.

Tiago
Seattle, WA

@RedWings
Your post here about Massachusetts is full of hyperbole and unnecessary divisiveness. I've read about some of the events you mention and the reality is not how you characterize it. I'm not sure why you are determined that same-sex marriage and religion cannot peacefully co-exist. SSM will be legal in the whole US and it doesn't need to divide us.
I live in Washington state where SSM is legal. I am devoutly religious and very open about my faith. I also experience SSA and know many gay people in a variety of life situations. We all live peacefully. SSM in Washington has not affected my faith in any way. I am still celibate because of my belief. My friends who are in committed relationships now have the legal rights and responsibilities of marriage. Religious rights in Washington are protected today like they were 2 years ago, only now gay people also have the right to marry. There are some ways the world is getting worse, but recognizing the legal rights of our GLBT brothers and sisters is not one of them.

Rustymommy
Clovis, NM

If you don't think rights are being taken away from conservatives, you are wrong:
1)You get to teach big bang and evolution THEORIES but I can't teach creationism.
2)You can burn American flags at a Hispanic gathering, but I can't fly the American flag at that same event.
3)Muslims can talk about the Qu'ran in school,but Christians can be disciplined for reading the Bible during free time.
4)Illegal aliens can get special breaks on tuition while out of state citizens pay full price.
5)You can teach about condoms, abortion, etc, but I can't teach abstinence.
6)You can demand that employers pay for medical benefits that violate their morals because employee morals count and employers don't.
7)Tolerance is a one way street where liberals can say anything and expect tolerance while conservative can say almost nothing without being called bigots.
8)Not acknowledging the influence of religion is a clear way of promoting a very rapidly growing religious viewpoint: ATHEISM.
8)Coming soon to the slippery slope, you will be stepping on my freedom when you ask courts to demand that churches perform marriages that violate their religious policy.

truthistruth
SPANISH FORK, UT

@koseighty "In one breath you claim defining marriage as a religious right and in the next you say the voters should by legislation. So, which is it? a religious thing or a governmental thing?"

That's a good point. I guess all freedoms are religious in some way... And perhaps the first marriages of human kind were more religious than governmental... who knows. But yes, the laws of this country ought to reflect the majority, especially when having been voted upon, including the laws that regulate business and commerce (also including the associated definition of marriage).

billmosby
Salt Lake City, UT

Just keep ignoring LGBT people the way you probably always have, Senator, and you'll do fine. Out of mind, no worries.

LovelyDeseret
Gilbert, AZ

Mormon Christians also believe the collapse of society is inevitable, so maybe these two things go hand in hand.

EstoPerpetua
Holden, MA

It is interesting to watch the progression of the American Citizens when they become more informed about issues such as SSM. The states that voted to ban SSM did so several years ago when they knew less about the LGBT community. Now that they are more informed about LGBTs they realize that SSM is simply a desire of LGBTs to have equal rights. These rights do not affect the religious rights of those who want to believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. There are people who have children and do not get married and there are people that get married and do not have children. If equal rights are not permitted for all U.S. Citizens then perhaps only the people who have rights should pay taxes and those who don't have rights do not have to pay taxes - :>). I say kudos to all of the people who are stepping up to the plate and are supporting equal rights for all U.S. Citizens.

Testimony
Philadelphia, PA

Rustymommy,

I respectfully suggest that you're confusing "rights" with "impunity." You've lost no rights, but now seem aware that others are criticizing you. That happens when holding disputatious positions in the public arena. Meanwhile, you criticize your opponents. Freely.

1) Nonsense. You can teach your children any gibberish you want. Just don't expect professional public educators to do it for you.

2) Who says you can't? Mob rule? I thought you favored that.

3) Not true.

4) They're residents of the state.

5) Who says you can't? Many districts do, despite public health surveys showing it doesn't work.

6) They're employees, not chattel. No one has to USE benefits that violate their morality, but all should be entitled to the same benefits.

7) Conservatives excoriate liberals ALL THE TIME. Just listen to the radio.

8) Some religions are failing because people reject the falseness in them. Others, like mine, are growing. Meanwhile, I fully respect atheists. Personal ethics trumps mindless dogma every time.

9) [2nd 8] There is a rock-solid Constitutional wall that protects your religion from that, just as it protects the unwilling public from your religion.

Values Voter
LONG BEACH, CA

DN mods have disallowed my response to a post upstream, most likely for the inclusion of one word, and yet Rustymommy's post gets through.

Ultimately I accept the rules of the board and the judgement of the mods, but if ever a word applied to a set of remarks, it would have be to Rustymommy's list of 8 items. We all have our opinions and our unique take on things, but this list practically refutes itself.

Values Voter
LONG BEACH, CA

@ Rustymommy,

Hoo boy! -- what a list.

"1) You get to teach big bang and evolution THEORIES but I can't teach creationism."

I encourage you to consider what you're saying very carefully, with all the implications. When a student at, say, UCLA medical school or Harvard medical school, raises his hand and informs the class that "my mommy says the kidneys are located in the feet", that student can very quickly expect to be disabused of that notion. You can teach your children anything you want but since you're not the gatekeeper of knowledge in specialized fields in which you have no expertise, you're ideas, if they are demonstrably false, will not fly. And consider who will eventually pay the price if you do successfully mislead your children.

Finally, in a scientific context, the word "theory" does not mean what you seem to think it means.

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