This is a case of overly-active, dramatic "freedom fighters", who feel
the need to rebel against an invisible concept in the shadow of the truth that
there IS no war on religion.
Most of the discussion about the "war on religion" seems to come from
Christians who often don't recognize that there are many "minority"
religions in the US (I would include non-believers in this group for the sake of
discussion) The majority Christian religions don't know how often members
of a minority religion are asked to bend to the will of the religious will of
the majority. From my perspective, as a Jew, I find it absolutely
hilarious when Chistrians start talking about the war on religion, the war on
Christmas, or the persecution they feel. I'd much rather work on Christmas
and get my holiday on Yom Kippur. I love this country and one of
its greatest cultural victories was the establishment of freedom of religion.
While we always have to be vigilant, there is no war on religion in this
country. Maybe some bickering, but certainly no war.
There is no threat to the fabric of our society! Isn't it interesting how
religious leaders pass the buck. They put the blame on all the people who have
chosen to ignore all the fear based teachings! People are tired of hell and
condemnation and they are getting wiser! Just because some old man stands up
there on a pulpit and tells me I will go to hell, doesn't make it true!
These last ten years I have seen from religion is hate and fear and condemnation
and people spending a huge amount of their time condemning people! Religion
always has to condemn! People see it more. They say that what they do to gays
comes from God! Guess what, that isn't working anymore! People look at
their siblings, nephews, nieces, moms, dads and they see a gay person! They know
this person, most of the time, from birth! You honestly think that they believe
what is taught about us? You wonder why people are backing off? Without true
love for each other, religion means nothing! There are a lot of religious
leaders that should be looking at themselves!
@AmkaProblemka: Here's the problem with your problem analysis, and with
this article.Yours is not the only religion. Yours is not the only
truth. Yours are not the only ethics.In fact, there are other
religions. Mine, for example, puts much more direct emphasis on Peace,
Equality, Community, Simplicity and Integrity than many others. We eschew
hierarchy, believing that only the individual experience of the Light is
important, especially when in group worship. We value Continuing Revelation and
believe it is true and directly experienced by the Meeting.Other
denominations have denounced us as heretics and apostates. There is nothing
holy about your religion if it is intolerant towards others who seek the same
Spirit and do so in peace.As for atheists, I gladly accept as Friend
anyone who believes they must do right and treat their neighbors well simply
because it is right and NOT because some religion commands them to. I am
certain God loves these of His children best, as they do His bidding in the
world, expecting nothing of Him in return and not plaguing Him with entreaties.
As long as religion contains truth, even when the answer is to admit not knowing
something, there can be no reason against it.If it doesn't have
truth in it, well then..... why would you follow it anyway?
New Atheism has indeed declared war on religion, which is why we are seeing so
many anti-religious comments on here. Their weapons are mockery, ambush (check
out what Richard Dawkins and a talk show did to Brandon Flowers - notice also
how very little Dawkins understands the LDS religion), and claims that religious
people are delusional and ignorant - all the while they remain ignorant about
many of the logical reasons many intelligent and very educated people have for
believing in God. When such a movement has made it clear that they
want to irradicate religion, then yes - there is a war on religion.When religious institutions (catholic medical clinics) and private businesses
are forced to participate in events and acts which they deem unrighteous, then
churches are not all that far behind. When judges can overrule what kind of
behavior a large majority of a society wants, without good scientific evidence
that said behavior is harmless to the future of that society, and the judge
makes claims against the majority religion of that society, then yes - there is
a war on religion.
@ Stormwalker"Religion uses "God said" (and variations)
to support traditions of oppression and bigotry. Convincing followers of
religion to treat others well is difficult indeed."Your post is
a perfect example of stereotyping.Religion is just a way of thinking
just as Science is. There a plenty of thoughtless people out there. Religion
doesn't have a monopoly on thoughtless people. There are plenty of people
who follow and do whatever their favorite celebrity, athlete, political leader,
etc.With that being said...does that not happen with people who
follow "science" as well? I am sure there are PLENTY of people that
follow science almost as blindly as some religious people. There
are plenty of people who are "scientists" but couldn't explain to
you even how most science works. They just follow science because "science
says" it is correct even though it may just be an educated guess.
@LovelyDeseret: "The problem with religion in general is that it
doesn't respond to knee jerk reactions and isn't easily
manipulated."True. The religious will pound on their collection
of Bronze Age Tribal Myths and proclaim that God said slavery is okay, God said
women should not vote, God said segregation is good, God said go to war, God
said traditional marriage, God said no welfare, God said capitalism, God said
this is a Christian nation... Religion uses "God said" (and
variations) to support traditions of oppression and bigotry. Convincing
followers of religion to treat others well is difficult indeed. Meanwhile, if I want to manipulate the religious all I have to do is claim
some group is waging a "war" on some religious tradition, or claim that
some group is a threat to "traditional families" and I can get donations
and votes on the flimsiest of manufactured evidence. If needed, I can add some
boilerplate about "God's judgement" and then pull the puppet
strings and count the cash.
@ tennerifaWell now that you bring it up there are a number of
religions that believe that Saturday is the Sabbath.@LDS liberal"Unions gave you Sundays off, as well as Saturdays -- that's
who!"Yeah and who do you think they got the idea from in the
greatbam22 andrews afb, MDIf you claim yourself to be a
Scientist or that Religion offers you nothing..Have you ever thanked
a religious person for your Sundays off?Why else do you think you
have it off?If the United States were purely capitalist it
wouldn't make sense to have a day of the week off. That day off could be
used for making money! Especially during growing seasons!3:27 p.m. May 30,
2014========= Unions gave you Sundays off, as well as
Saturdays -- that's who!And pensions, retirements, 401Ks, Sick
Leave, Vacation, Workman's comp, Health, Dental, Life Insurance, 40 hour
work weeks, overtime pay, child labor laws, and Health and Safety laws at work
-- 100% 'socialist" UNIONS!
greatbam22:Who should I also be thanking for Saturdays off?
@tennerifaOrem, UTJust why do religious people want to inject
their religion into the public arena,======= Great point
-- If Relious people get to inject religion in the public
square/arena, What's to keep non-religous people from injecting
secularism into the relious square/arena?Jesus said -- those who
live by the sword, shall die by the sword,With what met or measure you
judge, is how you in turn shall be judged, What goes around, comes
around.= KarmaIf we want to keep Government out of Religion,
we must keep Religion out of the Government.
If you claim yourself to be a Scientist or that Religion offers you nothing..Have you ever thanked a religious person for your Sundays off?Why else do you think you have it off?If the United States were
purely capitalist it wouldn't make sense to have a day of the week off.
That day off could be used for making money! Especially during growing seasons!
Of course there is no war on religion, that`s simply laughable. Where there is
a war, actually skirmish is a better word, is on religious folks trying to
impose it on others. No one is trying to keep believers from believing whatever
they want. The problem that (at least) I have is when someone wants to impose
their religion, usually through force of law, on me. Keep it in your homes and
churches, and everything will be fine.When you attempt to inject your
religion into the public arena, you are subtly forcing me to participate in your
private religious traditions. As part owner of the public arena, I object to
being forced to participate.Perhaps someone can answer this question for
me, as I haven`t had an answer yet. Just why do religious people want to inject
their religion into the public arena, do they hope to garner more brownie points
in the afterlife? I have never understood the attraction of public display of
religion, as opposed to a private display.
Who shutdown the Islamic cultural Center in New York City?Government
or Religous conservatives?Yes - there is a War on Religion, butIt's not "the Government" who is the enemy, it is
Religous Conservatives themselves who are trampling Religous Freeoms and the
@SLC guy;The problem is that your comments make it seem that ONLY
the religious do those things. The fact is that you do not need religion to
feel and act in ways that are beneficial.Just my observation.
A War on religion? That's interesting phraseology.And maybe
that's the case. "Conservatives" have been fighting true
Christianity for many years.After all, Jesus was, is, and always
will be a Liberal.And Rush Limbaugh has condemned the Pope on more
than one occasion for sounding like a Marxist.Soooooo . . . yes,
there IS a war on religion . . . and that war is being conducted by American
LovelyDeseret,Outside of the religiously dominated area of Gilbert,
AZ, we say it a bit differently:"There is no freedom of thought
and words without complete freedom FROM religion."
There is a war on religion in the same sense that the Thirteen Colonies fought a
war against the tyranny of the (religious) British Crown!That same
fight for freedom from the oppression of religious authority continues to this
day, and it will not end until the shackles of superstition and
"faithful" ignorance are abolished once and for all.
The problem with religion in general is that it doesn't respond to knee
jerk reactions and isn't easily manipulated. Thus the media and the ADHD
can't jump from one radical point of view to another and easily have all
the religious groups keep up with it. Get rid of religion and we will have
to jump through hoops dictated by our government, popular culture, and or
Hollywood. There is no freedom of thought and words without complete
freedom of religion.
A war on religion? Try a sustained attack on religious freedom waged by the
religious.In my lifetime certain types of believers have been
relentless in their efforts to impose their beliefs about abortion,
homosexuality/SSM, and creationism onto the rest of us. They have drafted
propositions, amendments, acts, regulations, and policies that served to codify
their religious beliefs into law and they have spent their tax-free
"charitable contributions" on political campaigns to get these laws
passed at all levels of government.And all while being the first to
wail, "We're being attacked!" when their transgressions are
challenged.Fortunately, others - believers and nonbelievers alike -
recognize that it is the religious in our society that pose the biggest threat
to religious freedom and we are now starting to make some real headway against
these trespasses on our liberty. Keep up the good fight, everyone.A
word of advice to those who believe a war is being waged against them: The only
way to win this kind of war is to make sure your "enemies" don't
"It is neither. Rather, we are finally beginning to treat religious ideas
the same as every other (i.e., consideration without our pre-frontal lobes shut
off by awe and blind submission)."You are right except that it
will be detrimental to our country. I can attest that science has caused much
more problems than it has solved.One example is all the chemicals in
our foods. Thank you science for that!Thank you science for further
survellience improvements and more effective ways to kill people!I
am sure science has done a bunch of great things but I just want to mention the
ones they often leave out.
34 ¶Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God
is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him,
and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. (New Testament, Acts, Chapter
Mr. Richards, please provide something concrete and real that establishes and
back up your statement "If you disagree with Obama's favoritism towards
Islam"In what ways has Obama shown favoritism to Islam.... I am
sure your source of information has a long list of examples. Why don't you
share those with us... please.
"The Citibank guy had experience bringing Citibank to the brink of failure.
Some of us don't think that be viewed as a positive thing."You may want to check the business record of a GW Bush. While I did vote for
the guy the first time, it would be hard to conclude that he had a successful
private business career prior to his public sector jobs
Owen -Perhaps Mike just forgot the word 'successful' as in
successful businessmen. The Citibank guy had experience bringing Citibank to the
brink of failure. Some of us don't think that be viewed as a positive
thing.You have to realize that getting government money for
bailouts, or so you can run a failing business longer on the tax payer's
bill (Solyndra, etc.)before it finally fails, is not conservative's
definition of successful or a businessman. We call them snakes, swindlers,
predators, thieves, con artists, etc.
re: Mr. Richards. Today: "I don't lie." Two days ago:
"Look at the present administration in Washington. With millions of people
unemployed, there is no one with extensive business experience serving at a
cabinet level position."
“Liberals were more likely to exaggerate their religious attendance than
conservatives. Liberals attend services less frequently than conservatives do.
Yet their desire to be thought more religiously observant than they actually are
is greater.”All True!Liberals are deceptive, (AKA
liars) and want you to think they have religious values, when they
don't.“Why does this matter? Because it’s more
evidence that the claim that liberals are waging a ‘war on religion’
is absurd.”False!Why would that preclude them from
waging war on religion? It doesn't. If religion is made out to
be an evil, they can claim superiority for being who they are instead of having
to lie about it to make them look good. Besides, their own guy just
established that they are liars, so when they say there is not war on religion,
why would we believe them?
re: LDS Liberal,It appears that you have started with the objective
desired and then worked backward to prove that your objective is correct. I
learned in my first science class that doing things the way you have done them
is incorrect and that it will produce misleading results. You
wrote: "I'd sure appreciate you writing to the Deseret News and ask
them to resend your letter posted only 2 days ago.."You have the
process backwards. If you care to check with the Deseret News, you'll find
that what you wrote is absolutely untrue. What that means to me is that you
have jumped to conclusions in all of your posts and that everything that you
write is suspect.If you disagree with Obama's favoritism
towards Islam, perhaps you should open your newspaper and read what is printed,
not what you wish was printed. He required that Muslims be allowed NOT to
transport beer, because it was against their religion, but he insisted that
Catholic nuns provide birth control and abortion information to those who work
for them. Google it. I don't lie.
@2 bitsI agree with your last post. I, too, was scared that the rights of
the parents were taken away on such flimsy evidence (an anonymous phone call)
and the buses were ready to go and load up the children. I remember thinking
that it would set a dangerous precedent if it was allowed to go through.
Thankfully, the courts saw through it and put a stop to it.Often
times, too often, we let emotion take over and we stop to think rationally. It
often takes just only a few "buzzwords". As evidenced in this forum,
say "Polygamy" and people will immediately jump to "Underage
marriage" and will not listen to reason.There have been what I
would deem to be very reasonable restrictions placed on our Freedom of Religion,
and most involve when harm could come to others. A sticky situation
is the case is the Schaibles family in PA. They believed in faith based healing
had a child die of pneumonia and then several years later the exact same thing
happened to the same parents. Does the state step in to protect the kids and
violate the beliefs of the parents?
2 bitsIn response to your first post, I hope you're right.
We've had enough war this last decade.
@BlueNo need to make an argument where there is none. We both clearly
agree on what "real world solutions" are. Like you I hold these views
because I know they are "the right thing to do". I also happen to belong
to a group that promotes these views. I fail to understand why you would be so
opposed to a group of like-minded people.
SLC Guy: "Religious people tend to value family, education, and service to
community. Religions offer recovery programs for people struggling with
debilitating drug and alcohol addictions, they encourage people to lend a hand
to those in need. They teach people to obey the law, and be civil in their
dialog with those apposed to their views."Atheists feel the same
way. So what's your point?You think religion holds the patent
on loving your family, love of learning, love of your fellow man, or love of
community? You absolutely do not.Moreover, I love those things
because I know that devoting my energies to my family and community is right
thing to do - the best way to ensure that my love for my children and other
people on this planet amounts to more than good intentions. Religion talks the
talk, but it's actual human beings who walk the walk.Best of
all, I don't need religion's elaborate system of threats and bribes to
@ordinaryfolksDo some research on the topic. Google
"Rozita Swinton" or "FLDS Raid" (Wikipedia) go to "April
2008 raid" section.In the raid... they took 462 children into
State custody, but after DNA testing found zero under age mothers. Quote from Wikipedia..."Authorities believed the children "had
been abused or were at immediate risk of future abuse," a state spokesman
said... A religious scholar later testified in court that he does not think
sexual activity occurs in the temples of FLDS sects... CPS officials conceded
that there was no evidence that the children were abused, and evidence later
presented in a custody hearing suggested that teenage boys were not physically
or sexually abused"....Not all FLDS people engage in under age
marriage (some do, but some non-FLDS Americans do also)... yet all on the ranch
had their children taken, and their homes taken, because somebody else (of the
same religion) committed a crime.Point being... People have been
forced from their homes because of their religion.All people on the
ranch didn't commit crimes... but all were driven from their homes (because
of their religious beliefs and other's crimes).
@2 Bits.... then don't try to marry off your underage daughters to middle
aged men. There is a huge difference between religious freedom and prosecution
for illegal behavior. From your requested google search we
have..."Under Texas law, law enforcement can try to seize
property that was used to commit or facilitate certain criminal conduct."
"Evidence seized during the raid was used to indict and convict 12 men
— including the cult’s leader, Warren Jeffs — for crimes
including child sexual assault, bigamy and performing an illegal
marriage."Religious freedom and expression does not mean you are
allowed to engage in criminal behavior.... lets not confuse issues here.
Thid Barker: "Lagomorph: Very poor analogy. Everyone is well served by the
military, even conscientious objectors because it keeps them free to be
objectors... Nothing is served by being forced to pay for birth control and
abortions except extreme selfishness resulting in the termination of the life of
an unborn human being!"Based on published casualty estimates and
demographic data, I estimate that about a dozen innocent preborn babies were
killed in the Shock and Awe phase of the Iraq invasion that you and I were
compelled by the government to subsidize with our taxes. Do you share
complicity in the termination of the lives of these unborn human beings? You
were forced to pay for them.The law distinguishes between direct and
indirect faith conflicts. It releases Quakers (and others) from military
service (i.e. from directly engaging in actions contrary to their faith) as
conscientious objectors. However, it does not release them from indirectly
paying for actions contrary to their faith through taxation. They are still
forced to pay for things they disapprove of. Same applies to Hobby Lobby and
its insurance premiums.
There is no war on religion. People are allowed to believe as they
wish, and to join and be a part of any church they wish, or none altogether.
That has not changed.The perceived war is when there are differences
in belief. The LDS Church has taken a very firm stance opposing SSM. Other
churches have taken equally firm stances in support of SSM. Who is to say what
church wins the day? Are one's beliefs any less sacred to them than mine
to me?That is precisely why our laws cannot be based solely on
one's interpretation of religion; and still claim to have Freedom of
Religion. It cannot go both ways. You either have a free religious society
based on secular laws, or a State run church on whom the State can base their
laws. There really is no other option.
Mike RichardsYour statement that says that those who turn away from
god will not be blessed financially is one of the most blatant lies I have ever
heard.There are so many people on this planet that are godless, and
they have a ton of money. There are also so many people on the planet that have
full faith in god and are destitute. Faith in god does not equal money or
success in any way, shape, or form. To argue that it does is pure baloney. Belief in god is not necessary for anybody to have morals and treat each
other well either. Many religious folks try to treat each other well because
they fear the consequences if they don't. People that don't believe in
god treat each other well because it is simply the right thing to do.
@SLC guy – “Not everything that works can be empirically proven with
our current understanding.”Never said it can (yet) –
only that claiming it is the work of Zeus (or any other god) has been
demonstrated time and again to be a consistently losing strategy.Interesting too that you cite the anti-slavery message of Exodus, since in
subsequent books it is clear the Israelites kept slaves (how’s that for a
bit of God commanded moral relativism?). In fact the Bible is so supportive of
slavery that Southern preachers in the mid-1800’s used to regularly
trounce their Northern counterparts in debates on slavery.As for the
“voice” that tells us not to murder, steal, etc., that is our own
conscience and has been with us since we learned to walk upright –
actually earlier based on the many studies that have been done showing the
presence of our moral precursors in animals (primates, elephants, mole rats,
etc.).And just to be clear, my animosity is only towards bad ideas.
If living a religious life makes someone a better person, I have no problem with
to SLC guyI was using an example (1 of many) of silly theatrics used
to tell us what to do.to SchneeIts obvious he has never
read the 'Bonobo & the atheist' where it stats that religious
moral imperatives are johnny come lately as a compliment to our instincts for
cooperation and empathy.
Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahAlthough Obama has openly been
hostile towards religion, except Islam, the real problem is with the people. ======== One of your most offensive lines yet.BTW -- I'd sure appreciate you writing to the Deseret News and ask
them to resend your letter posted only 2 days ago. [ref. Explore openly].and I quote -- "So many times they only want to hear from others who
support their point of view." Trying living by your own words.
When people of faith see other people in society don't respect their
beliefs, they tend to go ape.
Two BitsIs it possible that the FLDS had it problems because of child
abuse? That their religious leaders condoned, sanctioned and actively supported
abuse?Did not someone go to jail for this?You confuse freedom of
religion with crime.
@SLC guy"The voice that tells us not to murder, steal, or cheat should
be extinguished?"If someone needs God to tell you not to murder,
steal, or cheat for you to figure that out, they have way bigger problems than
any perceived war on religion.
Depends on "who's" religion we are talking about...Christians deaths by our Government - ZEROJewish deaths by our
Government - ZeroBuddahist deaths by our Government - ZeroMuslims
deaths by our Government - 400,000So - yes, In a sense I can agree
there's a War on Religion -- The problem is, the right-wing can not
see they are the perpetuators of it, and not the victims of it.
@ Blue "growing realization that they have nothing useful to contribute to
real-world problem solving"Religious people tend to value
family, education, and service to community. Religions offer recovery programs
for people struggling with debilitating drug and alcohol addictions, they
encourage people to lend a hand to those in need. They teach people to obey the
law, and be civil in their dialog with those apposed to their views. What in your mind constitutes "real-world problem solving"?
I went to church this week. Gave a contribution. Taught a class. Had a nice
conversation about religion on a plane last week. Went to lunch with my
Adventist and atheist coworkers. Joshed each other's views a bit and had a
good time. Religiously, I'm feeling free as a bird. No jackbooted thugs
interfered with any of this. It's a great country. All the paranoids out
there need to calm down and take a deep breath . . .
@UltraBObYes!!! This is the most frustrating part of this whole thing to
me. Certain religions want to involve themselves on a political level, but want
to be believed and followed without question. You can't be involved in
politics and not be criticized. Once you try to impose your religion on the
general population it becomes fair game for people to criticize and scrutinize,
even if they find things the religious believers don't like.
@UtahBlueDevilRe: "People are not being forced from their homes
because of their faith"...Not so fast... The FLDS people were
forced from their homes on at least 2 occasions recently. Google "Texas
takes possession of FLDS cult’s ranch".1. When Texas
rounded everybody up and separated them from their families and bused them away
for questioning (based on the prank call from somebody in Denver posing as an
under aged bride).2. Recently they confiscated everybody's
property (whether they were involved in under aged marriages or not). Texas
took possession of their homes, their land, their temple, and kicked them
out.I don't support what the FLDS do, but I realize what
happens to them... COULD happen to me. I don't want my home
confiscated, my land confiscated, the temple confiscated. Obviously it CAN
happen... it HAS happened. That means it could happen to other religions
too.Again... not supporting under aged marriage. Just pointing out
that people HAVE been driven from their homes (recently, not only in Illinois).
The weakness in religion in their over zealous desire to control people. If
religion was to stay with their main argument of life after death, there would
by little ammunition for the opposition to wage a war on religion.When religion takes on the mantle of control over the minute parts of human
life, such as marriage, child bearing, politics and other natural world
concerns, it opens itself up to dispute. It is this desire and need
to control the lives of others that makes religion seem to be just another
commercial organization of businessmen.
This ridiculous notion that there is a war on religion is a not very well veiled
attempt by conservative religionist to create a martyrdom for themselves.
Phooey.The shock and the horror of another religious point of view
for seeking to rid the country of homophobic views. Conservative religious
views have held sway, and conservative religionists don't want
another's religious views to interfere with their attitudes toward same sex
marriage. Abortion rights are also under assault for this perceived slight.
Now, no one is forcing you to get same sex marriage, go to a same
sex marriage ceremony, or even go to a church that sanctifies same sex marriage.
No one forces anyone to have an abortion. I suppose the concept of
freedom of choice to believe or not in conservative religious doctrine is not a
value of conservative religionists. This crowd seeks to impose their standards
on an increasingly diverse thinking population. May as well model ourselves on
Iran or any other Islam dominated country wherein Sharia law supersedes secular
law as far as they are concerned.
Some popular comments that show clear animosity to religion if not all out
war:Tyler D: "Yak Blood"? Read the book "Brain Wars"
written by a neurologist who explores the many unexplained phenomena in
medicine. A clear defense of the human spirit. Not everything that works can be
empirically proven with our current understanding.Happy Valley
Heretic: in reference to religion "Keep it to yourself"Pendergast: "talking bush that needs to be extinguished" I suppose you
are saying that the anti-slavery message given to Moses should also be
extinguished, along with the clear moral guidelines given in the ten
commandments. The voice that tells us not to murder, steal, or cheat should be
extinguished?I might not have believed there was a war on religion
until I read some of your comments.
Yes, there is a war on religion. It has been going on for centuries. Although
there has been billions of casualties on the people's side, all but the
last few Gods have been disposed of.While the weapon of choice for
religion is the basic fear of dying and being punished is present in every
human, many of those fears have been explained away by the knowledge of the
natural world. People no longer think that bad weather and failed crops are
caused by angry Gods. On the people's side is the human brain.
Our brain is constantly searching for answers to the unanswered questions.
Knowledge of the world is the thing that knocks down Gods.Lest we
destroy ourselves first, we will someday learn the secret of life and
understand, if not control, death.
@Mike Richards"Although Obama has openly been hostile towards
religion, except Islam"So many times people only want to hear
from others who support their point of view. You can see it from how they parrot
things that make no logical sense at all.
There is no war on religion. Any criticism of religion has been the result of
religious folks doing some pretty nutty things. This is a dispute that has no
basis. And for people like the comment above, to say that "Obama has openly
been hostile towards religion, except Islam,...", this is not only
ludicrous, but I find it enormously offensive. Right wingers have waged a war
on the President that goes beyond the pale. If they can't have their way,
they use extreme language and tactics. It is the right wing waging war.
Please, get a grip.
To answer the questions? Yes, there is a war/opposition toward religious
freedom/beliefs both from our government and from those who assume they are the
intelligent, sophisticated, wise.
Lagomorph: Very poor analogy. Everyone is well served by the military, even
conscientious objectors because it keeps them free to be objectors. Dictators do
not allow conscientious objectors! Nothing is served by being forced to pay for
birth control and abortions except extreme selfishness resulting in the
termination of the life of an unborn human being!
"Although Obama has openly been hostile towards religion, except Islam, the
real problem is with the people."One of the most bizarre and odd
statements of the year. Talk about believe the stuff you have made up in your
own mind. If your alluding to ACA, it impacts Muslims much more than even the
most evangelical christian. And if you look at the people the Drone Wars has
been targeted to... it is Muslim names that are on the RIP list - not
Christians. Very delusional statement here Mike.... Your hate is overriding
common sense here.Back to topic though... the war on Religion is one
that has been going on for thousands of years. From casting Christians to the
lions, the Catholic/Protestant wars, to the Nazi's genocide war on Jews....
this has been a common thread throughout the worlds history.No one
today is being tar and feathered in this country. No one is being burned at the
stake for being a heretic. People are not being forced from their homes because
of their faith. To say we have it hard is it to make a mockery of the real
sacrifices those who preceded us made.
Believing yourself to be persecuted, regardless of any evidence, is a central
theme of all authoritarian religions.The folks screaming the loudest
about a "war on religion" are also the people most adamantly opposed to
respecting other people's freedom to practice their own religions, or not
adhere to any religion at all.To religious conservatives, the
growing realization that they have nothing useful to contribute to real-world
problem solving feels like persecution. You're not being
persecuted. You're only being told that you have to treat people fairly,
the same as everyone else.
IMO The only way it would be considered a "war on religion" would be...
IF new laws prevent you from living the covenants you have with your God.
There are a few laws where people are concerned that this is the case, but at
least we are working on these laws, and TRYING to make them more tolerant of
people with covenants they need to keep.If the Government outright
prevents you from living your religion (as it has in some leftist dominated
countries in the past)... then there is a problem. We're not there,
yet.It's not an all out "war on religion"... but I get
the feeling it WOULD be... IF some of the posters here could have it their way.
If there isn't a war on religion, maybe there should be. Religion is the
root cause of most of history's war, murder, pain and suffering. All in the
name of some god. Of course,the non-religious can also be bloodthirsty. Maoists
and Marxists of the 40's and 50's come to mind. But when have you
ever heard of an agnostic humanist ever murdering someone? That's right,
Those who keep trying to convince themselves that their religion is persecuted
because the government won't give it the equivalent of "most favored
nation" status are only fooling themselves. If you want to see what
persecution is, try giving away bibles in North Korea. Try building a synagogue
in Saudi Arabia. Go to Afghanistan as a missionary. In fact, please tell me of
one single country with more overall religious freedom than the US. The only
"right" that religious bodies are losing is the ability to control
non-members through laws supporting the doctrines and beliefs of those bodies.
Frankly, if a church needs the power of the State to enforce its beliefs,
it's not a very good religion.
No. Not here, anyway. Religion may be losing it's monopoly on the public
soapbox to a larger world, but that's how it should be. It has a whole
sleeve full of victim cards to play as this unfolds, but in the end it's
going to have to justify it's own relevance instead of simply taking it by
force. That's how things are here, mind you, and not everywhere. In many
parts of the world, there isn't enough of a war on religion. The parties of
'god' are still causing incredible harm in many of the worlds'
hotspots, and oppressing millions. With each successive generation, there is
pushback on this, but we have a way to go.
Mountanman said: "If you like your religion, you can't keep it,
period!"Keep it to yourself and those who agree with you,
proselytize where there aren't "no solicitation" signs, but
don't force it on others (thru laws) who don't believe as you.Tell you what, You don't pray in my school, and I won't think in
Mountanman: "When the government forces people to fund contraception,
abortion and sterilization, in violation of their deeply held religious
convictions, you just lost your freedom of religion!"When the
government forces people to fund weapons of mass destruction and wars in
violation of their deeply held religious convictions (i.e. Quakers through
federal taxation), you just lost your freedom of religion!You may
rebut that tax dollars are fungible and pooled with other funds and no tax
dollar paid by a Quaker can be traced to a weapon. The same can be said for
Hobby Lobby's insurance premiums. No premium dollar can be traced to a
particular contraceptive purchase.Contrast these very indirect
connections between religious faith and government practice with a very direct
interference in religion by the government: A few weeks ago this paper reported
on United Church of Christ clergy in North Carolina facing jail time for
performing same sex marriages. Is there a clearer form of the state infringing
on religious beliefs than this?Tyler D is correct. The current fuss
is less about a war on religion than religion losing its hegemony in society.
No one cedes power easily or quietly.
Religion perceives a "war on religion" because it appears religion will
not always have the final say on policy. Otherwise, freedom of religion is
Very well said Tyler D....and might I ad that, I was always told that
respect is earned.
"most Americans believe claiming church attendance is a positive
thing"To Funny. So, it did not say that they believe
"church attendance" is a positive thing.Just that "Claiming
church attendance" is.Possibly because those who don't go
to church are judged by those that do.
responding to Mike R from SJ “Although Obama has openly been
hostile towards religion, except Islam,…”I guess
capturing Saddam & killing Osama don’t count? Seriously, when? "...As history has shown,... In our parents or grandparents
lifetime, we have seen that boom to bust cycle several times. “Whose history? I get it? God is calling the shots on Wall St & the Federal
Reserve? Was Katrina also divine retribution for those who led
‘alternative’ lifestyles as well? “Government is
prohibited from restricting religion.” Jefferson’s wall
restricts ‘influence’ in both directions. “It's time that people stopped restricting religion from their own
lives.”Or, people can put aside bronze age hokum, join the
21st century, & start acting like rational individuals.
Whether or not there is a “war on religion” is a matter of
perspective, and hopefully some of these points will provide some much needed
perspective.It is important to realize that we do not respect
people’s beliefs; rather we evaluate their reasons for believing what they
do. If two different doctors prescribe two different treatments for
your cancer (say, chemotherapy and drinking Yak blood), naturally you will want
to see some evidence supporting the efficacy of each approach before deciding on
a treatment plan.The same logic holds for every other area of our
lives… except religion. Society gives religion an upfront respect that no
other area of life is given. Because many people today are no
longer willing to offer such uncritical deference to religious ideas (but
instead want real world evidence supporting religious positions), religious
people are apt to see this loss of deference as a diminishment of their rights
or even persecution.It is neither. Rather, we are finally beginning
to treat religious ideas the same as every other (i.e., consideration without
our pre-frontal lobes shut off by awe and blind submission).
re Happy Valley Heretic"Religion may be losing it's grip on
the public, but there's no war against it."Agreed, but,
don't tell that to the true believers... its even more incomprehensible
than a talking bush that needs to be extinguished.
IMO there's just as much a "war on religion"... as there is a
"war on women", "war on the poor", "war on gays",
"war on blacks", "war on Hispanics", "war on
everything"...No... there is no "war on religion". Same
goes for the dozen or so things Democrats keep pretending the right is at war
with (to insure they get these group's votes).
First article of faith of liberalism; Thou shalt have no other God before the
Government! Therefore, all other religions must give way (except Islam of
course-lest they be offended)!
No. Wait which religion?The war is religion on religion as it has nearly
always been.Religion may be losing it's grip on the public, but
there's no war against it.The mysteries no longer hold sway in young
minds, eager for answers.
When the government forces people to fund contraception, abortion and
sterilization, in violation of their deeply held religious convictions, you just
lost your freedom of religion! If you like your religion, you can't keep
Although Obama has openly been hostile towards religion, except Islam, the real
problem is with the people. People who have a profound love for God will
worship God, knowing that He created this earth and all things on it. They will
respect Him and His laws. They will change their lives to conform to His
will.When people worship other gods, self, money, jobs, celebrity,
or anything else that detracts their attention from God, they will be ambivalent
towards Deity. As history has shown, when people are wealthy, healthy, and in
pursuit of activities that take them away from reverence to God, He stops
blessing them with wealth, health and the ability to pursue things that would
destroy their true happiness. In our parents or grandparents lifetime, we have
seen that boom to bust cycle several times. Slow learners learn
from experience. The cure is to put God first, to care for each other
willingly, without coercion, and to put away selfish desires.Government is prohibited from restricting religion. It's time that
people stopped restricting religion from their own lives.